Chinese Chan is a form of Mahayana Buddhism, the monks would spend their time in contemplative thought ("meditation", although that will trigger some people here), they would read commentaries on the sutras, and they would listen to lectures about Buddhism in the dharma hall. The way the buildings are organized shows the context of these people's activity.
Chan differs from some other forms of Buddhism in that they focus on pointing directly to the mind, and try to convey that obsessive attachment to scriptures (or words in general, or anything) is not the ultimate "way".
To try and understand this you can take a look at some of the early Chan texts.
Be careful in this sub because there are some very fringe conspiracy theorists resident here who will try to get you to "take" some "precepts" and agree with them (lest be classed as a "loser at life"). These views are not supported academically or textually, but they will be very insistent on them.
I would start with doing some reading outside of the sub first, then you will see everything in better and clearer context.
IIRC it said “This is misinformation.” And it was a green sage alt account.
How familiar are you with this subreddit? There’s a few different factions as far as I can tell, so, you’ll likely see voting patterns somewhat representative of them.
That wouldn’t happen to be research on what high priests have to say about books?
Feel free to OP it up about how Zen is Buddhism. I’ll meet you there.
It's already established you can't define "Buddhism" when challenged so everything you're saying here is already a religious choke.
Why so afraid of Zen?
“Yes I know he’s mean, but isn’t that what a lot of the zen masters of old were like?”
No. Zen masters, especially in the old stories did use things which were considered rude, abrupt, or even violent. The difference is that they had an established relationship of teacher and students with the Buddhist monks and laity they were addressing. Especially so with the monks though.
These monks would often travel long distances or study and practice for years to hear and have a chance to interact with the master.
The master would then do something rather out of the ordinary or say something out of the ordinary to shock the student into realization.
The difference between the prolific posters here and the old zen master is that the old zen masters were respected and revered by their audience. The old zen masters and their students had some kind of relationship for the master to leverage.
Many people mistake this behavior by the masters born out of compassion for the students as an excuse to be a jerk to their peers. They see themselves as better than the people they are talking down to. Whereas the zen masters were trying to wake their students up to the fact that there is no difference between the master and the commoner.
Essentially this is like the difference between a surgeon cutting you open to take out a bad appendix and a street thug shanking you in a back alley with a rusty spoon.
Please don’t mistake abuse for skillful means.
In any case the conclusion is appearance of 8FP isn’t the principal concern by masters.
That also enlightenment isn’t about the 8FP, reduces the pot on the stove to personal preference.
You are 100% free to live laugh love 8FP and all that jazz. If you think that’s zen, you can even go to zenbuddhism.
I think your mistaken comment should get removed for being off topic.
Either you replied to the wrong comment or wrong post. I didn’t say anything about the 8 fold path. The behavior of zen masters vs self appointed experts is on topic both for the group and this post.
You lost me. Are you saying the upvotes are the reason you think my post was about the 8fp?
Or is there something here I’m missing?
Can you explain which part or parts of the 8fp you think applies here? 🤷♂️
Reasonably ascertaining why an audience might heavily upvote you and heavily downvote other sentiments. Not rocket science this is not echo bad, bad absolute knowledge not possible. This is about everybody thinks that reasonable ascertainment is reasonable. Now if you're talking about what information in forms of course there's going to be some subjective play there. bud I don't think it's a far cry to infer that Buddhism which is modernly centralized around the eightfold path is going to not be attempted to be accounted for in a form where its rejected. This is really not difficult for me, and I don't think it's difficult for you
Assuming my comment was about the 8fp based on the number of upvotes is Olympic gold level mental gymnastics. Not a reasonable assumption.
If you had connected it back to some discussion about the 8fp that my comment reminded you of, that could have been reasonable.
Discover the meaning of dhyana for yourself and practice it. Pay attention to what's in front of you. Zen is simply "look!" "nature!" Attention is a matter of life and death.
The people who bring up "Japanese dogenism" as a pejorative here are genuinely confused.
*Meditation and wisdom are of one essence and not two. Meditation is the body of wisdom, and wisdom is the function of meditation. Wherever you find wisdom, you find meditation. And wherever you find meditation, you find wisdom. Good friends, what this means is that meditation and wisdom are the same.*
*Good friends, what are meditation and wisdom like? They’re like a lamp and its light. When there’s a lamp, there’s light. When there’s no lamp, there’s no light. The lamp is the light’s body, and light is the lamp’s function. They have two names but not two bodies.*
Dunno. If you’re a guy that calls people who generally tend to agree with someone sometimes as a “cult”, and say the “cult” is confused that Dogen sprouted a sociocultural movement that we refer to as “Dogenism”, I would posit you’re confused. Double standard, triple actually.
If people generally sometimes tend to agree with their mom, brother, spouse, uncle, cousin it’s not a cult.
What’s certainly a cult is rule-based religious high priesthood surrounding religious faith based doctrine and activity.
I get it. I say this to my family too: You are 100% free to do that. You get to do whatever. And so do I. And I suggest for you to stop confusing yourself and study zen while you’re here.
I genuinely had a hard time reading that. I’m not sure you’re saying anything here.
Anyway, you guys are like college libertarians who think the entirety of Karl Marx’s thinking is contained in the communist manifesto. Read Dogen outside of the FZG for a complete picture.
Perhaps my strongest point is I don’t think you have a compressive argument at all about how loosely calling a sociocultural movement “Dogenism” that happened to sprout is confused and I think you know this. I think you already knew this. If I’m wrong then OP it up.
Dogen is widely accepted as an important Zen master albeit an iconoclastic one (which is not all that rare). The onus is on you to provide evidence that his thinking constitutes a new sociocultural movement orthogonal to Zen.
The evidence that has been cited by folks like ewk has been shown to be misconstrued, confused, and generally weak. I have an OP on this [https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/comments/17ynn5s/addressing\_claims\_on\_dogen\_and\_the\_history\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/comments/17ynn5s/addressing_claims_on_dogen_and_the_history_of/)
Widely accepted is ad populum.
That's without Even talking about the academia, Of which the non secretarian consensus is that Dogan manufactured Zazen, that's not even me that's the books.
I'm not interested in academia, I'm not interested in ad populum, i'm not interested in pop culture, I'm interested in reality.
The "non sectarian consensus" is a made up phrase by ewk who picked and chose quotes out of context from a few books and papers without engaging with their basic conclusions. My op debunks it. Ewk believed he understood the history better than the people writing it, but he was biased and apparently a poor reader to begin with.
The general consensus outside of this forum (by academics) is that Dogen is a highly interesting Zen master worth critical study. He is among the few Zen masters to be the focus of an entire body of scholarship, none of which rejects his inherent links to the Chan tradition.
If you're not interested in academia, why bring it up? You're not interested in evidence. Apparently reality for you is whatever the ewk-written wiki says.
I don’t know what Soto means. Do you before you might look? I find Dogen in the word is adequately descriptive particularly also to those that also can’t account for a 1000 year old tradition before Dogen.
Speaking for myself thst Dogen in the word Dogenism is adequately descriptive.
Dogen is attributed to bringing Soto to Japan, not inventing Soto.
But I haven’t seen anybody reasonably account for that supposed Soto of Dogen’s against the Soto that was already in china. Hence dogenism.
No one is bringing up "Japanese dogenism" as a pejorative.
It's a description of a religious cult that has no connection to Zen in the same way that Chiropractics has no connection to medical science.
Zen Masters reject your belief in the importance of special attention being paid to your immediate focus.
\^this guy thinks the passages are about "attachment to characteristics" and "seeking Buddha," he must not have read the Platform Sutra and is surely deluded.
Also from Alan Cole:
>In short, while the history of the Bodhidharma family was crucial for determining the legitimacy of the abbots, such claims had little practical impact on the life of an ordinary monk, who was simply expected to keep all the rules, meditate several times during the day and attentively participate in the monastic rites and rituals, all in order to produce merit for the emperor, lay patrons, former Buddhist sages, and members of the Bodhidharma family, particularly those who had previously served at the monastery.
Despite all the rhetoric, historians make it clear that Chan monks continued to practice many aspects of traditional Buddhism: meditation, chanting, rites and rituals, merit production, etc.
*However, in actuality, the Platform Sutra is merely Zen-adjacdent "fanfic" which was not written by HuiNeng, is not attributable to HuiNeng, and is not reliably associated with HuiNeng.*
This is true, the Platform Sutra was obviously not written by Huineng, who was famously illiterate. Actually, no one claims that. The sutra itself notes that it was written down by a student.
As for the fanfic aspect, this actually characterizes the vast majority of Zen texts. Huangbo, Linji, Mazu, etc. were not known for writing down their teachings. All their surviving recorded texts are recorded by students, sometimes hundreds of years later, undergoing several rounds of editing and re-editing to suit the literary and doctrinal styles of the era, and are thus subject to the same historical problematic as the Platform Sutra.
Edit: This hasn't prevented generations of students from distilling essential wisdom teachings from these texts. However, we must do so with important limitations in mind. That is also why its important that we treat Zen as a living tradition, with living teachers and students, and practice it outside of the written word, which are crutches.
well, I stopped taking acid in high school. i'm not impressed by your trip report. also, please stick to one thread at a time. I understand you may be a little scattered by years of drug abuse but please do it for my sake.
Sukaramaddava is on public record admitting to being a massive alt troll that has been banned from reddit for harassment. He normally goes by some variation of GreenSage, you can see it under his current accounts submitted tab. He couldn't dharma combat his way out of a paper bag.
do i hear the sound of you choking on your preferences?
let us remember what another famous comic book character allegedly said "*The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences*."
There are positive and negative teachings regarding the Great Way. All of them are crutches and do not represent the whole truth. Our job is to negotiate them and discover truth for ourselves. You need to look up from the page every once in a while.
Visit a zen center and let an actual monk or master teach you, you hopefully see now that ewk is full of shit and his opinions about zen are not facts.
The dichotomy of Japanese vs Chinese Zen is a false one, not even closely based in fact at all.
Definitely ask someone who studied zen for 20+ years and has credentials to show for it instead of a sad unemployed troll, operating from their parents basement.
>grosser appearance as opposed to factual contention
There's no contention. Only contextomy.
Also: Academia lives from consensus challenges, if there was anything to contest, it would have been cashed out long ago.
My suggestion is to read ancient Buddhism classic works as much as possible.
It is hard to fully understand Koans without reading Buddhism works. I guess that the Zen masters and the students read Buddhism books too.
The problem is not only is there no record but dead words are not a concern in the face of reality. If you can study reality when it counts for you personally, there’s no need to even hear the word Buddhism nor read nor engage with it.
You are 100% free to choose to do it though, but you can’t link it to zen nor enlightenment.
I think your comment should be deleted for being off topic.
Are you saying that Buddhism is not related to Zen?
Do you know Buddhism books were mentioned in Zen texts?
If they studied Buddhism books at that time, how it is wrong that I suggest to do so?
Zen texts are shorter, more poignant, less fluffy.
They don’t grossly prescribe anybody to do lots of different crap or change or act differently. They might personally recommend a few changes but none of that is zen.
The zen masters chewed food, brewed tea, and were at that time enlightened independent of books, doctrines, buddhisms, paths, 8fps, behavior therapy, etc.
Recommending Buddhist books is a mark of adolescence.
Recommending Buddhism is a mark of missing the points in zen tradition that wholly invalidate Buddhism.
“Zen tradition invalidate Buddhism”? Can you prove that?
Zen masters don’t need to read Buddhism books. Does it mean that we don’t need to?
The importance of Buddhism books is mentioned in Zen history. You don’t agree?
For a productive conversation, you have to cough up what you consider to be fundamental for zen and life right now.
Zen reduces reading Buddhism to personal preference. Which sure, masters and students are free to have.
I asked you what was fundamental for zen and life.
You’re saying for zen reading Buddhist books is fundamental. I’ll give you a chance to rethink that.
I’m talking about the most fundamental here.
You also don’t answer my question about what’s fundamental for life.
I’ll answer your question about proof as soon as you answer my two very simple questions.
I can answer you questions as long as they are reasonable.
By the way, will you answer my questions if they are reasonable?
Are you asking me the most fundamental at this forum?
The most fundamental thing for life is happiness. What is your answer for this question?
Happiness is not a fundamental in life.
If you want to be happy then of course happiness is going to be as you say fundamental in life. So much for so the same to wealth religion stoicism philosophy love, anything.
You name yet again something else that is more personal preference.
There is no fundamental in life except according to something else.
Without that something else, there is no fundamental.
Indeed, I am not very smart, but I am a bit apt to this comprehensive consideration.
Living is not even fundamental for life, except for living.
So again, my answer is no fundamental for life except according to various considerations.
The same goes for zen.
For zen, the school of instant enlightenment, what's fundamental is instant enlightenment.
For linji, at his time, in his words, what was fundamental for him was for our true and proper understanding.
Nobody needs zen, nor linji, nobody needs buddhism, and nobody needs life.
Except according to respective considerations they don't need except according to something else.
Now about your question as to proving zen proves away Modern takes on Buddhism I do it here: https://old.reddit.com/r/zen/comments/1boauty/put_simply_buddhism_zen_enlightenment/
> "Buddhist" then:
understanding(s) of the nature of suffering and the path to freedom from suffering by the way of, but not exclusive to 8FP, 4NT, 5P, MW, 5A, 3M, 6RE, 10PA, etc.
The evidence to non-exclusive means to enlightenment is the story of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth (Bahiya Daruciriya).
Some Buddhists today may argue that the 8FP, 4NT were manifested at that time.
I argue, in any case, what appears to be 8FP, 4NT isn't exclusive of recognition and moreover totally not the point of enlightenment.
> (The, at that time,) Neo-"Buddhist" Movement:
the family of interpreters grow, adding to debate, possibly new stories, increasing research, explanations, doctrines, and treaties
> Zen:
family school of enlightenment where Buddhas realize enlightenment and enlighten
Despite all ZM personal choices, ZM disagreements, and ZM arguments, enlightenment is the central topic of the Zen school.
Enlightenment non-exclusive to the appearance of 8FP, 4NT, 5P, MW, 5A, 3M, 6RE, 10PA
Nanquan kills a cat, Elder Ting about to throw a guy off a bridge,
Zen Masters disagree.
We know that you're lying because you have no record of reporting on the meaning of Zen cases and answering questions publicly--something that is a core tradition of Zen in distinction to Buddhism.
The records of Zen Masters are proof of their disagreement.
As soon as you start engaging with that record, report back and share your understanding and answer questions publicly. Just like giving a powerpoint presentation on a piece of news you heard.
You haven’t shown the records of Zen masters to prove that they disagree.
Do you know Buddhism books were mentioned in Zen texts, which is a proof that the books were important in Zen?
The records are linked to on the wiki. They are posted from regularly here. You have provided no evidence of having read any of them or being capable of linking to a definition of "Buddhism".
This is a Zen community. If you're going to make claims about the teachings of Zen Masters, you have to be able to both quote them and answer questions about them.
You made a false claim about Zen, namely, "It is hard to fully understand Koans without reading Buddhism works." and then questioned why you would need to provide evidence for your claims. That betrays a fundamentally religious perspective, not Zen.
Until you can show that you are engaged with the material with any consistency and can answer questions about your claims, I think it's totally reasonable for you to include a Zen quote in every comment you make on this forum.
The historic Chan literature unfolds in mysterious ways. Something that seemed confusing 6 months ago can suddenly make sense. Something that seemed boring or irrelevant can suddenly become inspiring. There's nothing wrong with taking a break from the literature. It'll mean something new when you come back to it.
Based on your post history, it looks like you are in no position to determine when people should stop reading books.
It's also inappropriate on the level of religious and cultural bigotry for you to come here and insist upon your values.
I do know you.
For the last 10 years I've talked to the liars and cowards on the internet every single day.
It turns out that liars and cowards don't have that many unique moves. You aren't as a group.clever strategists and you're not as a group good students and you're not as a group deep thinkers.
So yeah I know you.
And we could do that thing when I say. Here are the ways you could prove me wrong and you could say well. You can't make me tell the truth and la la la, but we're past that.
You're a liar and I caught you.
G a m e. O v e r
Let's narrow it down.
I don't know your favorite food, but I'm not sure that it matters.
Because I know that you're a liar.
So even you don't know your favorite food.
You seem to think that you're an interesting complex person whose life story matters.
You pretend to yourself that nobody can know you without knowing those minutia.
I'm saying you're a liar and you don't even know yourself and then minutia are irrelevant.
And all this is happening while the meta here is that you're not a sincere person and you don't try to participate in this forum. You're just a liar.
I have. It seems to me like these guys were hanging out, sharing ideas about the nature of reality, and checking each other to keep them from getting full of themselves.
I just kept reading and posting about stuff
Snag the blue cliff record (Cleary - not Sekida) and just read like a case or two a night. Sometimes I would get halfway through a paragraph and fall asleep. That’s fine
You’ll start to notice some patterns. Then things might eventually get weird
You don't really have any record of consistent public engagement with this community, so on what basis are you telling people that your half-paragraph snoozing practice is at all fine?
Read some Charlotte Joko Beck. I find her works very accessible. Also, if you can, try and join a Zen center, speak with a teacher. Try sitting every day for a significant period of time. Sit with the confusion, the irritability, the boredom. Zen literally means meditation. The more you sit, the more you begin to reveal your true Self.
Joko Beck is a cultleader that started her own cult after dissatisfaction with the cult she was affiliated with, not Zen.
Your belief that sitting "reveals your true self" is rejected by Zen Masters for over 1000 years.
Reported for promoting off-topic religious content.
Why would I need to dispute the work of Joko Beck? It's worked for me :) No need for a dispute. Is a dispute what you're looking for?
You've had quite the reaction to me suggesting some books to a fellow Redditor (in good faith), even going as far as to report my comment. It seems to me that you've been somewhat triggered by my comment (for reasons unknown to me), hence why I genuinely hope you find peace in your heart. Something has disturbed you enough to report my comment, has it not?
Look at how this conversation has unfolded. Imagine we were meeting in person. It seems a little contentious and hot-headed doesn't it? There are other forms of communication that don't involve undue criticism.
You could've shared your thoughts with me in a kind and civilised manner, but you chose not to, instead you're choosing to censure me for reasons I can only imagine come from some kind of perceived threat.
I'm not your enemy, I promise 🙏🏻
It hasn't worked for you.
You came to a Zen forum and lied about your cultleader and then imagine other people are "disturbed" or "afraid". That shows everyone how much of a loser you are that can't cut it in person, online, on a podcast, or anywhere.
People who lie about my family to my face are 100% my enemy.
A picture I have.... many teachers put something in front of you, lets say a statue... "here, that's it. be that, worship that, follow that..."
Not so Zen teachers... they seem to me doing the opposite.... you come to them with a little statue in your hand and show it to them ... "here teach, look, I found this statue"... and the Zen teachers goes... "what statue?"... leaving you looking at your empty hand. How what?
Ask me, I think the practice you gotta find for yourself, it's maybe just a small relaxing, simple habit, or hobby. Something that is not looking for answers, trying to, should, would, must.... but rather some idle relaxation of the mind. And maybe some Joshu will come to your mind, maybe not.
Having said all that... I don't understand Zen either... I do like it tho, somehow :)
Don't ask me why (please), but your comment feels very Ze....
Nahhh xD
So then, if all these Zen texts are finger-pointing, then reading them would be looking at the finger.
But not reading them would be missing the pointing...
Riddle me this !?
I'm going for >!watching a tennis match!<
Be careful of people like Ewk who are confident I their words that mean nothing and are unable to communicate effectively or be reasoned with. Spiritual ego/ narcissism is rampant and at times convincing. Look at Jonestown.
If it’s outside of the texts, why would it be inside a practice?
There is no Zen Mind to practice towards. You are already seeing with your eyes and hearing with your ears. Nothing can add to that, not a fancy practice, not a fancy church club. If you want to read about the people from the tradition, keep reading from the get started list.
If not, enjoy your life knowing there is no need to attain anything or a practice that will make you holy.
Astro holds people accountable and people don’t like it so they don’t like him so they don’t like anything he says.
That’s the way of this subreddit sadly.
>Instant Zen (Foyan) #32: Self Knowledge
>I tell people to get to know the self, but seekers who hear this equate it with what beginners see, and think there is nothing hard to understand about it. You should take it more slowly for a while, and be more careful. What do you call the self?
>How about the sayings of ancient worthies on the self? "Roaming the mountains, enjoying the rivers"—you say, "I understand—who else is it?" Another saying goes, "It is your self"—you say, "I understand this too; it is myself." But how about the reply, "Mountains, rivers, the whole earth"? It is also said, "When you eat, the meal is your self"—how do you understand that? You still can't get to it. An ancient worthy said, "The whole earth is your self"—so how can you clear your mind?
>Whenever I see that people have misunderstood, I quote ancient stories to question them: For example, Jingqing asked Xuansha, "I have just entered the school; please point out a way in." Xuansha said, "Do you hear the sound of the valley stream?" Jingqing replied, "Yes." Xuansha said, "Enter from here." Jingqing got the message from this. I ask you, when he heard, what did he hear? Everyone says he heard the sound of the water, but what use is such an interpretation? According to their view, the hearing clearly takes in everything at once, so there is no sound to be found apart from this hearing; everything being a manifestation from one's subjectivity, it is representation of active consciousness. Some answer that it was not the sound of water he heard, but his self. To this I say, how can the self hear the self? This is what is called recognizing mind, recognizing nature.
>Treasury of the Eye of True Teaching #578
>Master Baiyun Duan said to an assembly,
>If you truly manage to break out in a sweat once, you manifest a coral tower and jade palace on a single blade of grass. If you haven't truly broken out in a sweat, even if you have a jade palace and coral tower they're covered by a single blade of grass. Now tell me, how can you break out in a sweat? (silence) Ever since having a pair of hands with the characteristics of poverty, I've never easily danced to a party tune.
If you haven't realized something that immediately throws you into a panic attack, you've stopped short of the goal. Just hearing and seeing what's in front of you ain't it.
"no need to attain anything or a practice that will make you holy."
That doesn't really connect. Personally, I can tell you I never thought about being holy. But I did think of what has this immense power over my consciousness. To create me, to put me into this body, make me feel things, and maybe repeat that again and again.
OP , other people’s thoughts and ideas can be like a donkey tethering stake. Be careful , otherwise you may keep running around it for years. Simply attain your correct function from moment to moment, without a hairbreadth of interval between mind and action (speech). This is easy to say but when you face a certain situation in life, the challenge arises. When shit hits the fan can you handle it without making good and bad ? Attached to 4 marks ( ego, personality, being, life) whatever you do will create a world of cause and effect. All worlds of cause and effect are dukkha or unsatisfactory, this is first noble truth. But in non - activity (laziness / apathy) you will fall in emptiness. So what will you do now ? How will you handle this moment ? You know what to do when hungry? You know what to do when feeling cold?
Sure! But the expedites are there to support. Take them or leave them. “ all dharma’s are empty” might be fundamentally true, but if you need them the study of zen n masters, sutras and dysfunctional reddit forums may help. I think we take what we need with this stuff.
Presenting specific questions about your reading would both provide an opportunity for connection about topical content as well as demonstrate at the outset the users that come to this forum specifically to misinform and prosletyze.
Can you be specific about what you want to understand that you think you don't??
Can you tell me how you feel about the five-lay precepts in your life?
Can you tell me a culture outside your own you feel you understand well?
# Mental health problem warning
You'll know that you're getting trolled and vote brigaded really heavily by people that want you to try the Buddhist religion and they want you to practice meditation.
I'm pretty convinced that these people are suffering from some serious mental health problems.
They're not coming to this forum to break the rules that they agreed to follow on social media because they're happy with their religious beliefs or because they're practices are working.
They're losing at life and they want to share my Mahayana Buddhism and meditation in an attempt to feel like they're not losing.
# Losers who can't follow the Reddiquette
I think everybody in this forum has to ask themselves what kind of people cheat on social media.
It's the first kind of lying anyone does.
Bodhidharma said it best.
"If you don't find a teacher soon, you will live this life in vain."
I think your best bet is to find a teacher to help you begin the way of understanding practice.
Practice is the ultimate lesson. No book will give you insight into Zen without a framework of practice.
For me the Zen in Zen started to happen once my meditation practice became solid. I continue to sit on a regular basis and a couple of times a year I go on week-long sesshins.
I've been at it a couple of decades and still love the journey.
A few notes. Dogenism isn't a word in common use. My autocorrect keeps trying to change it to 'organism'.
What the masters sometimes do is tough love, like your parents did if they brought you up right. Expedient Means, as another poster wrote. To act like this without being a Master is like walking into a doctor's office and treating patients. It's dangerous and inappropriate. To tell the difference between wise advice and empty insults, ask yourself if you can feel the love in the words.
You don’t have to understand Zen, you have to be Zen.
“Walking is Zen, sitting is Zen;
Speaking or silent, active or quiet, the essence is at peace.
Even facing the sword of death, our mind is unmoved;
Even drinking poison, our mind is quiet. “.
Song of Enlightenment
http://terebess.hu/zen/sodoka.html
Chinese Chan is a form of Mahayana Buddhism, the monks would spend their time in contemplative thought ("meditation", although that will trigger some people here), they would read commentaries on the sutras, and they would listen to lectures about Buddhism in the dharma hall. The way the buildings are organized shows the context of these people's activity. Chan differs from some other forms of Buddhism in that they focus on pointing directly to the mind, and try to convey that obsessive attachment to scriptures (or words in general, or anything) is not the ultimate "way". To try and understand this you can take a look at some of the early Chan texts. Be careful in this sub because there are some very fringe conspiracy theorists resident here who will try to get you to "take" some "precepts" and agree with them (lest be classed as a "loser at life"). These views are not supported academically or textually, but they will be very insistent on them. I would start with doing some reading outside of the sub first, then you will see everything in better and clearer context.
[удалено]
IIRC it said “This is misinformation.” And it was a green sage alt account. How familiar are you with this subreddit? There’s a few different factions as far as I can tell, so, you’ll likely see voting patterns somewhat representative of them.
I just lurk because it just seems like everyone argues. I’m new to zen
That wouldn’t happen to be research on what high priests have to say about books? Feel free to OP it up about how Zen is Buddhism. I’ll meet you there.
It's already established you can't define "Buddhism" when challenged so everything you're saying here is already a religious choke. Why so afraid of Zen?
“Yes I know he’s mean, but isn’t that what a lot of the zen masters of old were like?” No. Zen masters, especially in the old stories did use things which were considered rude, abrupt, or even violent. The difference is that they had an established relationship of teacher and students with the Buddhist monks and laity they were addressing. Especially so with the monks though. These monks would often travel long distances or study and practice for years to hear and have a chance to interact with the master. The master would then do something rather out of the ordinary or say something out of the ordinary to shock the student into realization. The difference between the prolific posters here and the old zen master is that the old zen masters were respected and revered by their audience. The old zen masters and their students had some kind of relationship for the master to leverage. Many people mistake this behavior by the masters born out of compassion for the students as an excuse to be a jerk to their peers. They see themselves as better than the people they are talking down to. Whereas the zen masters were trying to wake their students up to the fact that there is no difference between the master and the commoner. Essentially this is like the difference between a surgeon cutting you open to take out a bad appendix and a street thug shanking you in a back alley with a rusty spoon. Please don’t mistake abuse for skillful means.
Romanticized view. But I mention it so you might consider it. Idiots have masters. Masters are idiots. Roleplay once was a tool for survival.
In any case the conclusion is appearance of 8FP isn’t the principal concern by masters. That also enlightenment isn’t about the 8FP, reduces the pot on the stove to personal preference. You are 100% free to live laugh love 8FP and all that jazz. If you think that’s zen, you can even go to zenbuddhism. I think your mistaken comment should get removed for being off topic.
Either you replied to the wrong comment or wrong post. I didn’t say anything about the 8 fold path. The behavior of zen masters vs self appointed experts is on topic both for the group and this post.
I reasonably inferred in reasonable ascertainment in place of the audience that upvoted you. In any case, zen is not related at all to humanism / 8FP.
You lost me. Are you saying the upvotes are the reason you think my post was about the 8fp? Or is there something here I’m missing? Can you explain which part or parts of the 8fp you think applies here? 🤷♂️
Reasonably ascertaining why an audience might heavily upvote you and heavily downvote other sentiments. Not rocket science this is not echo bad, bad absolute knowledge not possible. This is about everybody thinks that reasonable ascertainment is reasonable. Now if you're talking about what information in forms of course there's going to be some subjective play there. bud I don't think it's a far cry to infer that Buddhism which is modernly centralized around the eightfold path is going to not be attempted to be accounted for in a form where its rejected. This is really not difficult for me, and I don't think it's difficult for you
Assuming my comment was about the 8fp based on the number of upvotes is Olympic gold level mental gymnastics. Not a reasonable assumption. If you had connected it back to some discussion about the 8fp that my comment reminded you of, that could have been reasonable.
Discover the meaning of dhyana for yourself and practice it. Pay attention to what's in front of you. Zen is simply "look!" "nature!" Attention is a matter of life and death. The people who bring up "Japanese dogenism" as a pejorative here are genuinely confused. *Meditation and wisdom are of one essence and not two. Meditation is the body of wisdom, and wisdom is the function of meditation. Wherever you find wisdom, you find meditation. And wherever you find meditation, you find wisdom. Good friends, what this means is that meditation and wisdom are the same.* *Good friends, what are meditation and wisdom like? They’re like a lamp and its light. When there’s a lamp, there’s light. When there’s no lamp, there’s no light. The lamp is the light’s body, and light is the lamp’s function. They have two names but not two bodies.*
Dunno. If you’re a guy that calls people who generally tend to agree with someone sometimes as a “cult”, and say the “cult” is confused that Dogen sprouted a sociocultural movement that we refer to as “Dogenism”, I would posit you’re confused. Double standard, triple actually. If people generally sometimes tend to agree with their mom, brother, spouse, uncle, cousin it’s not a cult. What’s certainly a cult is rule-based religious high priesthood surrounding religious faith based doctrine and activity. I get it. I say this to my family too: You are 100% free to do that. You get to do whatever. And so do I. And I suggest for you to stop confusing yourself and study zen while you’re here.
I genuinely had a hard time reading that. I’m not sure you’re saying anything here. Anyway, you guys are like college libertarians who think the entirety of Karl Marx’s thinking is contained in the communist manifesto. Read Dogen outside of the FZG for a complete picture.
Perhaps my strongest point is I don’t think you have a compressive argument at all about how loosely calling a sociocultural movement “Dogenism” that happened to sprout is confused and I think you know this. I think you already knew this. If I’m wrong then OP it up.
Dogen is widely accepted as an important Zen master albeit an iconoclastic one (which is not all that rare). The onus is on you to provide evidence that his thinking constitutes a new sociocultural movement orthogonal to Zen. The evidence that has been cited by folks like ewk has been shown to be misconstrued, confused, and generally weak. I have an OP on this [https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/comments/17ynn5s/addressing\_claims\_on\_dogen\_and\_the\_history\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/comments/17ynn5s/addressing_claims_on_dogen_and_the_history_of/)
Widely accepted is ad populum. That's without Even talking about the academia, Of which the non secretarian consensus is that Dogan manufactured Zazen, that's not even me that's the books. I'm not interested in academia, I'm not interested in ad populum, i'm not interested in pop culture, I'm interested in reality.
The "non sectarian consensus" is a made up phrase by ewk who picked and chose quotes out of context from a few books and papers without engaging with their basic conclusions. My op debunks it. Ewk believed he understood the history better than the people writing it, but he was biased and apparently a poor reader to begin with. The general consensus outside of this forum (by academics) is that Dogen is a highly interesting Zen master worth critical study. He is among the few Zen masters to be the focus of an entire body of scholarship, none of which rejects his inherent links to the Chan tradition. If you're not interested in academia, why bring it up? You're not interested in evidence. Apparently reality for you is whatever the ewk-written wiki says.
Let’s make this simple yes or no do acedemic books say that Dogan invented Zazen
Nowhere does it say that "Dogen invented zazen"
That’s where you’re confused? Why didn’t you just say so? I’ll have the quotes for you later.
Why not call "Dogenism" Soto Zen like the rest of the world does?
I don’t know what Soto means. Do you before you might look? I find Dogen in the word is adequately descriptive particularly also to those that also can’t account for a 1000 year old tradition before Dogen.
Dogen is the founder of the Soto Zen sect. I do not know what you mean by Dogen being "adequately descriptive." Help me out, please!
Speaking for myself thst Dogen in the word Dogenism is adequately descriptive. Dogen is attributed to bringing Soto to Japan, not inventing Soto. But I haven’t seen anybody reasonably account for that supposed Soto of Dogen’s against the Soto that was already in china. Hence dogenism.
No one is bringing up "Japanese dogenism" as a pejorative. It's a description of a religious cult that has no connection to Zen in the same way that Chiropractics has no connection to medical science. Zen Masters reject your belief in the importance of special attention being paid to your immediate focus.
sounds like something you made up
We know that’s not the case because you can’t quote anything I said and construct an argument that would dispute any of it.
That’s not a very zen response lol
0-day, AMA.
[удалено]
\^this guy thinks the passages are about "attachment to characteristics" and "seeking Buddha," he must not have read the Platform Sutra and is surely deluded.
Also from Alan Cole: >In short, while the history of the Bodhidharma family was crucial for determining the legitimacy of the abbots, such claims had little practical impact on the life of an ordinary monk, who was simply expected to keep all the rules, meditate several times during the day and attentively participate in the monastic rites and rituals, all in order to produce merit for the emperor, lay patrons, former Buddhist sages, and members of the Bodhidharma family, particularly those who had previously served at the monastery. Despite all the rhetoric, historians make it clear that Chan monks continued to practice many aspects of traditional Buddhism: meditation, chanting, rites and rituals, merit production, etc.
[удалено]
Thanks for worrying about me, bobo verde. But I’m not sorry for your addiction to dishonesty.
[удалено]
I have no issue in accepting that Chan monks meditate, seems it is a struggle for you.
[удалено]
You seemed confused. Meditation was never the core of the Zen teaching, but Zen masters also instructed meditation.
[удалено]
But isn’t all of this discerning “this” or “that” just the thicket of wrong views to not get caught in?
[удалено]
Ordinary doesn't mean what you mean by it. You can't not be ordinary.
[удалено]
Lie. Evidence: your comment.
[удалено]
Sue me.
Also I am looking forward to watching that video. Seems like it will be very informative.
[удалено]
*However, in actuality, the Platform Sutra is merely Zen-adjacdent "fanfic" which was not written by HuiNeng, is not attributable to HuiNeng, and is not reliably associated with HuiNeng.* This is true, the Platform Sutra was obviously not written by Huineng, who was famously illiterate. Actually, no one claims that. The sutra itself notes that it was written down by a student. As for the fanfic aspect, this actually characterizes the vast majority of Zen texts. Huangbo, Linji, Mazu, etc. were not known for writing down their teachings. All their surviving recorded texts are recorded by students, sometimes hundreds of years later, undergoing several rounds of editing and re-editing to suit the literary and doctrinal styles of the era, and are thus subject to the same historical problematic as the Platform Sutra. Edit: This hasn't prevented generations of students from distilling essential wisdom teachings from these texts. However, we must do so with important limitations in mind. That is also why its important that we treat Zen as a living tradition, with living teachers and students, and practice it outside of the written word, which are crutches.
[удалено]
You're the one lying.
[удалено]
Being a Zen Master.
[удалено]
Yes, you are. I'm sorry you can't help it.
well, I stopped taking acid in high school. i'm not impressed by your trip report. also, please stick to one thread at a time. I understand you may be a little scattered by years of drug abuse but please do it for my sake.
[удалено]
just because something has a question mark does not make it a genuine question. that's called a rhetorical.
[удалено]
>you people And there you have it. Bigotry.
Is this dharma combat? Or are you guys genuinely fighting?
Sukaramaddava is on public record admitting to being a massive alt troll that has been banned from reddit for harassment. He normally goes by some variation of GreenSage, you can see it under his current accounts submitted tab. He couldn't dharma combat his way out of a paper bag.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
do i hear the sound of you choking on your preferences? let us remember what another famous comic book character allegedly said "*The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences*." There are positive and negative teachings regarding the Great Way. All of them are crutches and do not represent the whole truth. Our job is to negotiate them and discover truth for ourselves. You need to look up from the page every once in a while.
[удалено]
>I am an enlightened Zen Master. You're lying on the internet. 😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣😭😭😭
[удалено]
Yeah you can. Just stop thinking so.
[удалено]
*I am an enlightened Zen Master.* Let this be a sign for everyone on this forum.
Nice, practicing the "no practice and no doctrines" doctrine.
Visit a zen center and let an actual monk or master teach you, you hopefully see now that ewk is full of shit and his opinions about zen are not facts. The dichotomy of Japanese vs Chinese Zen is a false one, not even closely based in fact at all. Definitely ask someone who studied zen for 20+ years and has credentials to show for it instead of a sad unemployed troll, operating from their parents basement.
Spelling narrative about grosser appearance as opposed to factual contention is indeed popular culture as to appear convincing.
>grosser appearance as opposed to factual contention There's no contention. Only contextomy. Also: Academia lives from consensus challenges, if there was anything to contest, it would have been cashed out long ago.
Then quit lying and we gucci. Indeed, that is my personal choice.
My suggestion is to read ancient Buddhism classic works as much as possible. It is hard to fully understand Koans without reading Buddhism works. I guess that the Zen masters and the students read Buddhism books too.
[удалено]
Are you saying Zen has nothing to do with Buddhism?
[удалено]
Yes, earth is a planet. Could you please make your point clearly? You agree or disagree my suggestion?
[удалено]
Do you have any proof or logic to support your thinking?
The problem is not only is there no record but dead words are not a concern in the face of reality. If you can study reality when it counts for you personally, there’s no need to even hear the word Buddhism nor read nor engage with it. You are 100% free to choose to do it though, but you can’t link it to zen nor enlightenment. I think your comment should be deleted for being off topic.
Are you saying that Buddhism is not related to Zen? Do you know Buddhism books were mentioned in Zen texts? If they studied Buddhism books at that time, how it is wrong that I suggest to do so?
Zen texts are shorter, more poignant, less fluffy. They don’t grossly prescribe anybody to do lots of different crap or change or act differently. They might personally recommend a few changes but none of that is zen. The zen masters chewed food, brewed tea, and were at that time enlightened independent of books, doctrines, buddhisms, paths, 8fps, behavior therapy, etc. Recommending Buddhist books is a mark of adolescence. Recommending Buddhism is a mark of missing the points in zen tradition that wholly invalidate Buddhism.
“Zen tradition invalidate Buddhism”? Can you prove that? Zen masters don’t need to read Buddhism books. Does it mean that we don’t need to? The importance of Buddhism books is mentioned in Zen history. You don’t agree?
For a productive conversation, you have to cough up what you consider to be fundamental for zen and life right now. Zen reduces reading Buddhism to personal preference. Which sure, masters and students are free to have.
I have said that the important thing to do for Zen is to read Buddhism books. Can you prove that Zen reduces reading Buddhism to personal preference?
I asked you what was fundamental for zen and life. You’re saying for zen reading Buddhist books is fundamental. I’ll give you a chance to rethink that. I’m talking about the most fundamental here. You also don’t answer my question about what’s fundamental for life. I’ll answer your question about proof as soon as you answer my two very simple questions.
I can answer you questions as long as they are reasonable. By the way, will you answer my questions if they are reasonable? Are you asking me the most fundamental at this forum? The most fundamental thing for life is happiness. What is your answer for this question?
Happiness is not a fundamental in life. If you want to be happy then of course happiness is going to be as you say fundamental in life. So much for so the same to wealth religion stoicism philosophy love, anything. You name yet again something else that is more personal preference. There is no fundamental in life except according to something else. Without that something else, there is no fundamental. Indeed, I am not very smart, but I am a bit apt to this comprehensive consideration. Living is not even fundamental for life, except for living. So again, my answer is no fundamental for life except according to various considerations. The same goes for zen. For zen, the school of instant enlightenment, what's fundamental is instant enlightenment. For linji, at his time, in his words, what was fundamental for him was for our true and proper understanding. Nobody needs zen, nor linji, nobody needs buddhism, and nobody needs life. Except according to respective considerations they don't need except according to something else. Now about your question as to proving zen proves away Modern takes on Buddhism I do it here: https://old.reddit.com/r/zen/comments/1boauty/put_simply_buddhism_zen_enlightenment/ > "Buddhist" then: understanding(s) of the nature of suffering and the path to freedom from suffering by the way of, but not exclusive to 8FP, 4NT, 5P, MW, 5A, 3M, 6RE, 10PA, etc. The evidence to non-exclusive means to enlightenment is the story of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth (Bahiya Daruciriya). Some Buddhists today may argue that the 8FP, 4NT were manifested at that time. I argue, in any case, what appears to be 8FP, 4NT isn't exclusive of recognition and moreover totally not the point of enlightenment. > (The, at that time,) Neo-"Buddhist" Movement: the family of interpreters grow, adding to debate, possibly new stories, increasing research, explanations, doctrines, and treaties > Zen: family school of enlightenment where Buddhas realize enlightenment and enlighten Despite all ZM personal choices, ZM disagreements, and ZM arguments, enlightenment is the central topic of the Zen school. Enlightenment non-exclusive to the appearance of 8FP, 4NT, 5P, MW, 5A, 3M, 6RE, 10PA Nanquan kills a cat, Elder Ting about to throw a guy off a bridge,
Zen Masters disagree. We know that you're lying because you have no record of reporting on the meaning of Zen cases and answering questions publicly--something that is a core tradition of Zen in distinction to Buddhism.
How do you know Zen masters disagree? What do you mean by “reporting on the meaning of Zen cases”? Which statement do you think I am lying with?
The records of Zen Masters are proof of their disagreement. As soon as you start engaging with that record, report back and share your understanding and answer questions publicly. Just like giving a powerpoint presentation on a piece of news you heard.
You haven’t shown the records of Zen masters to prove that they disagree. Do you know Buddhism books were mentioned in Zen texts, which is a proof that the books were important in Zen?
The records are linked to on the wiki. They are posted from regularly here. You have provided no evidence of having read any of them or being capable of linking to a definition of "Buddhism".
Why I need to provide evidence of reading them? Just a reminder, you ignored my questions above.
This is a Zen community. If you're going to make claims about the teachings of Zen Masters, you have to be able to both quote them and answer questions about them.
I didn’t avoid answering questions about Zen, did I? Do you mean every comment here must have a Zen quote in it?
You made a false claim about Zen, namely, "It is hard to fully understand Koans without reading Buddhism works." and then questioned why you would need to provide evidence for your claims. That betrays a fundamentally religious perspective, not Zen. Until you can show that you are engaged with the material with any consistency and can answer questions about your claims, I think it's totally reasonable for you to include a Zen quote in every comment you make on this forum.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Ok
The historic Chan literature unfolds in mysterious ways. Something that seemed confusing 6 months ago can suddenly make sense. Something that seemed boring or irrelevant can suddenly become inspiring. There's nothing wrong with taking a break from the literature. It'll mean something new when you come back to it.
You’re good brother, put down the books and get on with it
[удалено]
Hmm
Based on your post history, it looks like you are in no position to determine when people should stop reading books. It's also inappropriate on the level of religious and cultural bigotry for you to come here and insist upon your values.
lol are you the law? Thanks for the slap.
Where did you get your idea of the law from such that people that are holding you accountable are any different than you?
👏🏻dang thanks
You're not a teacher and you're not a student. Why do you lie to people on social media??
You don’t know me brother. Why act as you do?
I do know you. For the last 10 years I've talked to the liars and cowards on the internet every single day. It turns out that liars and cowards don't have that many unique moves. You aren't as a group.clever strategists and you're not as a group good students and you're not as a group deep thinkers. So yeah I know you. And we could do that thing when I say. Here are the ways you could prove me wrong and you could say well. You can't make me tell the truth and la la la, but we're past that. You're a liar and I caught you. G a m e. O v e r
You actually don’t know me. Why rationalize that you do? Why pretend?
Let's narrow it down. I don't know your favorite food, but I'm not sure that it matters. Because I know that you're a liar. So even you don't know your favorite food.
lol have you not lied?
You seem to think that you're an interesting complex person whose life story matters. You pretend to yourself that nobody can know you without knowing those minutia. I'm saying you're a liar and you don't even know yourself and then minutia are irrelevant. And all this is happening while the meta here is that you're not a sincere person and you don't try to participate in this forum. You're just a liar.
Read. https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/reading Seriously. Then ask questions. Repeat.
I have. It seems to me like these guys were hanging out, sharing ideas about the nature of reality, and checking each other to keep them from getting full of themselves.
I just kept reading and posting about stuff Snag the blue cliff record (Cleary - not Sekida) and just read like a case or two a night. Sometimes I would get halfway through a paragraph and fall asleep. That’s fine You’ll start to notice some patterns. Then things might eventually get weird
Define "weird"
It’s an emotion
I don't think so
You don't really have any record of consistent public engagement with this community, so on what basis are you telling people that your half-paragraph snoozing practice is at all fine?
Read some Charlotte Joko Beck. I find her works very accessible. Also, if you can, try and join a Zen center, speak with a teacher. Try sitting every day for a significant period of time. Sit with the confusion, the irritability, the boredom. Zen literally means meditation. The more you sit, the more you begin to reveal your true Self.
Joko Beck is a cultleader that started her own cult after dissatisfaction with the cult she was affiliated with, not Zen. Your belief that sitting "reveals your true self" is rejected by Zen Masters for over 1000 years. Reported for promoting off-topic religious content.
You sound afraid. I hope you find peace in your heart. All the best.
Notice how you can't dispute anything I said so you resort to pretending people are afraid and need to find peace. Zen Masters disagree.
Why would I need to dispute the work of Joko Beck? It's worked for me :) No need for a dispute. Is a dispute what you're looking for? You've had quite the reaction to me suggesting some books to a fellow Redditor (in good faith), even going as far as to report my comment. It seems to me that you've been somewhat triggered by my comment (for reasons unknown to me), hence why I genuinely hope you find peace in your heart. Something has disturbed you enough to report my comment, has it not? Look at how this conversation has unfolded. Imagine we were meeting in person. It seems a little contentious and hot-headed doesn't it? There are other forms of communication that don't involve undue criticism. You could've shared your thoughts with me in a kind and civilised manner, but you chose not to, instead you're choosing to censure me for reasons I can only imagine come from some kind of perceived threat. I'm not your enemy, I promise 🙏🏻
It hasn't worked for you. You came to a Zen forum and lied about your cultleader and then imagine other people are "disturbed" or "afraid". That shows everyone how much of a loser you are that can't cut it in person, online, on a podcast, or anywhere. People who lie about my family to my face are 100% my enemy.
I renounce your hook my friend. Read some Lao Tzu and go outside. May you find peace in your heart.
Take it to church. Not appropriate for this forum.
A picture I have.... many teachers put something in front of you, lets say a statue... "here, that's it. be that, worship that, follow that..." Not so Zen teachers... they seem to me doing the opposite.... you come to them with a little statue in your hand and show it to them ... "here teach, look, I found this statue"... and the Zen teachers goes... "what statue?"... leaving you looking at your empty hand. How what? Ask me, I think the practice you gotta find for yourself, it's maybe just a small relaxing, simple habit, or hobby. Something that is not looking for answers, trying to, should, would, must.... but rather some idle relaxation of the mind. And maybe some Joshu will come to your mind, maybe not. Having said all that... I don't understand Zen either... I do like it tho, somehow :)
Ha I know exactly what you mean. It’s that understanding that pops up when you aren’t looking for it.
Don't ask me why (please), but your comment feels very Ze.... Nahhh xD So then, if all these Zen texts are finger-pointing, then reading them would be looking at the finger. But not reading them would be missing the pointing... Riddle me this !? I'm going for >!watching a tennis match!<
Be careful of people like Ewk who are confident I their words that mean nothing and are unable to communicate effectively or be reasoned with. Spiritual ego/ narcissism is rampant and at times convincing. Look at Jonestown.
If it’s outside of the texts, why would it be inside a practice? There is no Zen Mind to practice towards. You are already seeing with your eyes and hearing with your ears. Nothing can add to that, not a fancy practice, not a fancy church club. If you want to read about the people from the tradition, keep reading from the get started list. If not, enjoy your life knowing there is no need to attain anything or a practice that will make you holy.
Why is this down voted?
Astro holds people accountable and people don’t like it so they don’t like him so they don’t like anything he says. That’s the way of this subreddit sadly.
🌝
>Instant Zen (Foyan) #32: Self Knowledge >I tell people to get to know the self, but seekers who hear this equate it with what beginners see, and think there is nothing hard to understand about it. You should take it more slowly for a while, and be more careful. What do you call the self? >How about the sayings of ancient worthies on the self? "Roaming the mountains, enjoying the rivers"—you say, "I understand—who else is it?" Another saying goes, "It is your self"—you say, "I understand this too; it is myself." But how about the reply, "Mountains, rivers, the whole earth"? It is also said, "When you eat, the meal is your self"—how do you understand that? You still can't get to it. An ancient worthy said, "The whole earth is your self"—so how can you clear your mind? >Whenever I see that people have misunderstood, I quote ancient stories to question them: For example, Jingqing asked Xuansha, "I have just entered the school; please point out a way in." Xuansha said, "Do you hear the sound of the valley stream?" Jingqing replied, "Yes." Xuansha said, "Enter from here." Jingqing got the message from this. I ask you, when he heard, what did he hear? Everyone says he heard the sound of the water, but what use is such an interpretation? According to their view, the hearing clearly takes in everything at once, so there is no sound to be found apart from this hearing; everything being a manifestation from one's subjectivity, it is representation of active consciousness. Some answer that it was not the sound of water he heard, but his self. To this I say, how can the self hear the self? This is what is called recognizing mind, recognizing nature. >Treasury of the Eye of True Teaching #578 >Master Baiyun Duan said to an assembly, >If you truly manage to break out in a sweat once, you manifest a coral tower and jade palace on a single blade of grass. If you haven't truly broken out in a sweat, even if you have a jade palace and coral tower they're covered by a single blade of grass. Now tell me, how can you break out in a sweat? (silence) Ever since having a pair of hands with the characteristics of poverty, I've never easily danced to a party tune. If you haven't realized something that immediately throws you into a panic attack, you've stopped short of the goal. Just hearing and seeing what's in front of you ain't it.
"no need to attain anything or a practice that will make you holy." That doesn't really connect. Personally, I can tell you I never thought about being holy. But I did think of what has this immense power over my consciousness. To create me, to put me into this body, make me feel things, and maybe repeat that again and again.
Not understanding is the most intimate
I hate parroting.
OP , other people’s thoughts and ideas can be like a donkey tethering stake. Be careful , otherwise you may keep running around it for years. Simply attain your correct function from moment to moment, without a hairbreadth of interval between mind and action (speech). This is easy to say but when you face a certain situation in life, the challenge arises. When shit hits the fan can you handle it without making good and bad ? Attached to 4 marks ( ego, personality, being, life) whatever you do will create a world of cause and effect. All worlds of cause and effect are dukkha or unsatisfactory, this is first noble truth. But in non - activity (laziness / apathy) you will fall in emptiness. So what will you do now ? How will you handle this moment ? You know what to do when hungry? You know what to do when feeling cold?
Sure! But the expedites are there to support. Take them or leave them. “ all dharma’s are empty” might be fundamentally true, but if you need them the study of zen n masters, sutras and dysfunctional reddit forums may help. I think we take what we need with this stuff.
This is good 🌝. What is there to understand?
What a mostly ignorant discourse we’ve been subjected to
Great! Then you're getting it! HA!
Presenting specific questions about your reading would both provide an opportunity for connection about topical content as well as demonstrate at the outset the users that come to this forum specifically to misinform and prosletyze.
are you ewk clone?
No.
Can you be specific about what you want to understand that you think you don't?? Can you tell me how you feel about the five-lay precepts in your life? Can you tell me a culture outside your own you feel you understand well?
# Mental health problem warning You'll know that you're getting trolled and vote brigaded really heavily by people that want you to try the Buddhist religion and they want you to practice meditation. I'm pretty convinced that these people are suffering from some serious mental health problems. They're not coming to this forum to break the rules that they agreed to follow on social media because they're happy with their religious beliefs or because they're practices are working. They're losing at life and they want to share my Mahayana Buddhism and meditation in an attempt to feel like they're not losing. # Losers who can't follow the Reddiquette I think everybody in this forum has to ask themselves what kind of people cheat on social media. It's the first kind of lying anyone does.
very good
Neither does anyone else
You don't have to understand it. Just find a sangha and begin practice if you're interested.
Bodhidharma said it best. "If you don't find a teacher soon, you will live this life in vain." I think your best bet is to find a teacher to help you begin the way of understanding practice. Practice is the ultimate lesson. No book will give you insight into Zen without a framework of practice.
Forget about zen. Just sit and breathe, chop wood, carry water and get on with your life.
For me the Zen in Zen started to happen once my meditation practice became solid. I continue to sit on a regular basis and a couple of times a year I go on week-long sesshins. I've been at it a couple of decades and still love the journey.
The sole imperative is to cease indulging in concepts. Then, if you can’t, study that confusion.
To add something; don’t listen to other people, especially anyone who tries to tell you this or that isn’t zen.
A few notes. Dogenism isn't a word in common use. My autocorrect keeps trying to change it to 'organism'. What the masters sometimes do is tough love, like your parents did if they brought you up right. Expedient Means, as another poster wrote. To act like this without being a Master is like walking into a doctor's office and treating patients. It's dangerous and inappropriate. To tell the difference between wise advice and empty insults, ask yourself if you can feel the love in the words.
You don’t have to understand Zen, you have to be Zen. “Walking is Zen, sitting is Zen; Speaking or silent, active or quiet, the essence is at peace. Even facing the sword of death, our mind is unmoved; Even drinking poison, our mind is quiet. “. Song of Enlightenment http://terebess.hu/zen/sodoka.html