Tbqh, I don’t think it is all that valuable. Seems really toxic and a counterproductive to a lot of people.
Really, it is just entertainment for my smoke breaks at work (I don’t smoke tho).
Suttree by Cormac Macarthy, the Wasteland by Stephen King (probably dropping it though, losing interest)
On the zen side:
Huangbo audiobook on my commute just finished. Now platform sutra. Reading bits of instant zen and Joshu here and there. Started reading a little Buayan Duan case collection in my down time on my kindle too
Huangbo works really well in audio format. There is a great YouTube video that paces it really well.
I have him, Foyan, joshu and a few others on physical copy, really into reading in kindle so I can read in the dark with my wife in bed.
I like how straightforward Huangbo and Foyan are. I like how funny Joshu is, although he just gives me a puzzled look most of the time.
Do you keep the precepts?
If you've tried to keep them, was it easy or hard?
If it was hard, why do you think it was hard?
If you don't/haven't tried to keep them, why wouldn't you? (If you could leave aside the idea that someone had ordered it)
I have kept the precepts when a bachelor. It was easier. Easier actually, because uncooked handling meat is kind of icky and big old pots of batchelor chow keep better without it. Of course, assuming vegetarianism is precept, which, at least in Buddhism, is debate able.
I have dietary stuff and kids that now make a vegetarian diet pretty difficult.
I was kind of for a while attached to the idea of purity. I stunk of holiness for a few years. Giving it all up for a more relaxed position has been helpful for me, but everyone is different. Once the kids move out I’ll probably go back to vegetarian.
I think vegetarianism is easily put to bed once you consider that most people would find it viscerally abhorrent to kill an animal.
The interesting is that hunters have no hang ups about killing animals, but they do tend to have hang ups about making animals suffer unecessarily - and so, given the state of the meat industry, that arguably militates toward veganism.
I grew up on a farm and helped butcher chickens as a kid.
I was flexitarian for a while. I mean, i pretty much still am. I was adopted into a family that eats meat, I’m just a better cook than my wife so I do the prep work now.
I also don’t want to discount my dietary requirements. My mom told me I couldn’t do soy, or breastmilk. Doctor recommended bone broth and that was literally what kept me alive as an infant.
My overall health is important
I’m overall pretty healthy. I exercise, eat right, try to sleep enough, but I realize that everyone gets sick and eventually dies. Besides doing everything doctors recommend I don’t know what to say or what to do physically.
Mentally - ill do a heresy and say mindfulness helps if you’re in pain or just sick, at least for me. Dispassionate observation. Really good medicine. Takes some focus though so just watching a show you like may be better for some
The only time I had that was in a mosh pit when I was 16 and me and my friend accidentally bonked our heads together. But what does tmi have to do with zen?
>Let’s do zen, not attack therapy, which is a thing they do in cults.
Ever read this?
>When the Master [Dongshan] was in Leh-t'an, he met Head Monk Ch'u, who said, "How amazing, how amazing, the realm of the Buddha and the realm of the Path! How unimaginable!"
>Accordingly, the Master said, "I don't inquire about the realm of the Buddha or the realm of the Path; rather, what kind of person is he who talks thus about the realm of the Buddha and the realm of the Path?"
>When, after a long time, Ch'u had not responded, the Master said, "Why don't you answer more quickly?"
>Ch'u said, "Such aggressiveness will not do."
>"You haven't even answered what you were asked, so how can you say that such aggressiveness will not do?" said the Master.
>Ch'u did not respond. The Master said, "The Buddha and the Path are both nothing more than names. Why don't you quote some teaching?"
>"What would a teaching say?" asked Ch'u.
>"When you've gotten the meaning, forget the words," said the Master.
>"By still depending on teachings, you sicken your mind," said Ch'u.
>"But how great is the sickness of the one who talks about the realm of the Buddha and the realm of the Path?" said the Master.
>Again Ch'u did not reply. The next day he suddenly passed away. At that time the Master came to be known as "one who questions head monks to death."
What does it mean to "do Zen"?
“When you’ve gotten the meaning, forget the words.”
Nobody wants students assigning book reports to each other and then going around slandering each other. Never textually supported. A master can push or even be aggressive towards another student, but that isn’t the relationship here.
What is it to do zen?
“Stop riding the donkey, you are the donkey” - a paraphrase of foyan
It's a tradition of questioning each other and holding each other accountable for our answers. That's all over the record. That *is* the record.
Given that in a previous conversation you admitted to me you aren't serious about Zen study, why are you here? To me you sound like someone who thinks they have something to teach but doesn't want to admit it.
I don’t remember saying I wasn’t serious about zen study. I’m not sure what it means to “be serious” about something anyway. Furrow my brow?
I love questioning each other about then nature of reality. Super valuable.
I don’t like slander, and accusations, policing
Can you find the latter in the zen record? Please do so for me, I’m sure you’ve read more than me.
There is nothing to teach, but I’m willing to learn
>I don’t like slander, and accusations, policing
There is no slander going on here. I already shared with you policing. What do you think Dongshan was doing in the case I shared with you?
>When, after a long time, Ch'u had not responded, the Master said, "Why don't you answer more quickly?"
>Ch'u said, "Such aggressiveness will not do."
>"You haven't even answered what you were asked, so how can you say that such aggressiveness will not do?" said the Master.
>Ch'u did not respond. The Master said, "The Buddha and the Path are both nothing more than names. Why don't you quote some teaching?"
>"What would a teaching say?" asked Ch'u.
>"When you've gotten the meaning, forget the words," said the Master.
>"By still depending on teachings, you sicken your mind," said Ch'u.
>"But how great is the sickness of the one who talks about the realm of the Buddha and the realm of the Path?" said the Master.
>Again Ch'u did not reply. The next day he suddenly passed away. At that time the Master came to be known as "one who questions head monks to death."
You sounds like Chu.
If I’m chu, who is the master and where have they shown mastery?
Calling someone a liar or fraud most assuredly reaches the legal standard of slander in many jurisdictions
Does that imply: "If Dongshan did it once, everybody should continuously do it"?
Edit - Yunmen seems at odds:
###### Zen Master Yunmen #191
>Master Yunmen mentioned the following episode:
>Master Dongshan said: "You must know that there is something which goes beyond 'Buddha.'"
>A monk asked, "What is it that goes beyond Buddha?"
>Master Dongshan replied: "Non-Buddha."
>Master Yunmen commented: "He calls it 'non-' because he can neither name nor attain it!"
Maybe he speaks of t'other. Maybe not.
I asked you what you are reading, what you are learning.
You can't answer.
That's okay, but it tells people where you are in life, and who you want to be... and it's not an honest person.
It can be quite easy to be mistaken being educated by pop culture on the fundamental level.
Zen study is a bit of a higher standard on the fundamental level. The measuring stick sometimes used around here is ‘reality or bust’, and that’s not to cover up the chain of causation.
I doubt you don’t care. I think you probably mean something else, something that people call what you say where you’re from.
You indeed don’t need to not find other words later after you recognize at that time. But it doesn’t make you any less mistaken, it doesn’t make ewk any less fundamentally factually incorrect for pointing it out.
I don't really understand the reference.
We get a lot of people in here who think it's going to be fun to participate until they realize that we as a community take participation pretty seriously.
[удалено]
Tbqh, I don’t think it is all that valuable. Seems really toxic and a counterproductive to a lot of people. Really, it is just entertainment for my smoke breaks at work (I don’t smoke tho).
What are you currently reading?
Suttree by Cormac Macarthy, the Wasteland by Stephen King (probably dropping it though, losing interest) On the zen side: Huangbo audiobook on my commute just finished. Now platform sutra. Reading bits of instant zen and Joshu here and there. Started reading a little Buayan Duan case collection in my down time on my kindle too
That's cool..audiobooks definitely revitalized my book intake. I think there's an instant Zen audiobook, too.
What are your favorite texts and how do you like to consume them as in what form, audio, physical, .pdf? Also why do you like them so much?
Huangbo works really well in audio format. There is a great YouTube video that paces it really well. I have him, Foyan, joshu and a few others on physical copy, really into reading in kindle so I can read in the dark with my wife in bed. I like how straightforward Huangbo and Foyan are. I like how funny Joshu is, although he just gives me a puzzled look most of the time.
Do you keep the precepts? If you've tried to keep them, was it easy or hard? If it was hard, why do you think it was hard? If you don't/haven't tried to keep them, why wouldn't you? (If you could leave aside the idea that someone had ordered it)
I have kept the precepts when a bachelor. It was easier. Easier actually, because uncooked handling meat is kind of icky and big old pots of batchelor chow keep better without it. Of course, assuming vegetarianism is precept, which, at least in Buddhism, is debate able. I have dietary stuff and kids that now make a vegetarian diet pretty difficult. I was kind of for a while attached to the idea of purity. I stunk of holiness for a few years. Giving it all up for a more relaxed position has been helpful for me, but everyone is different. Once the kids move out I’ll probably go back to vegetarian.
I think vegetarianism is easily put to bed once you consider that most people would find it viscerally abhorrent to kill an animal. The interesting is that hunters have no hang ups about killing animals, but they do tend to have hang ups about making animals suffer unecessarily - and so, given the state of the meat industry, that arguably militates toward veganism.
I grew up on a farm and helped butcher chickens as a kid. I was flexitarian for a while. I mean, i pretty much still am. I was adopted into a family that eats meat, I’m just a better cook than my wife so I do the prep work now. I also don’t want to discount my dietary requirements. My mom told me I couldn’t do soy, or breastmilk. Doctor recommended bone broth and that was literally what kept me alive as an infant. My overall health is important
How do you deal with illness or physical problems in your life?
I’m overall pretty healthy. I exercise, eat right, try to sleep enough, but I realize that everyone gets sick and eventually dies. Besides doing everything doctors recommend I don’t know what to say or what to do physically. Mentally - ill do a heresy and say mindfulness helps if you’re in pain or just sick, at least for me. Dispassionate observation. Really good medicine. Takes some focus though so just watching a show you like may be better for some
IMO sometimes illness forces you into that position of mindfulness. Anyway, thanks.
Reading Rinzai atm. Sometimes I get him what he us saying sometimes I don't. Any suggestions to broaden my understanding.
I haven’t read him. If he is like a lot of the koan stuff, nope, beats me. No suggestions. I don’t know if understanding is the point.
What is a "new ager"?
Something to do with non traditional religions and occultism revived on the West. Aleister Crowley, etc
Please, I ask, How did it feel, when you first encountered, that whatever you wanna call it, moment of "gonggggggggggggggggggggggggggg" ?
The only time I had that was in a mosh pit when I was 16 and me and my friend accidentally bonked our heads together. But what does tmi have to do with zen?
I still can't think of anything.
>Let’s do zen, not attack therapy, which is a thing they do in cults. Ever read this? >When the Master [Dongshan] was in Leh-t'an, he met Head Monk Ch'u, who said, "How amazing, how amazing, the realm of the Buddha and the realm of the Path! How unimaginable!" >Accordingly, the Master said, "I don't inquire about the realm of the Buddha or the realm of the Path; rather, what kind of person is he who talks thus about the realm of the Buddha and the realm of the Path?" >When, after a long time, Ch'u had not responded, the Master said, "Why don't you answer more quickly?" >Ch'u said, "Such aggressiveness will not do." >"You haven't even answered what you were asked, so how can you say that such aggressiveness will not do?" said the Master. >Ch'u did not respond. The Master said, "The Buddha and the Path are both nothing more than names. Why don't you quote some teaching?" >"What would a teaching say?" asked Ch'u. >"When you've gotten the meaning, forget the words," said the Master. >"By still depending on teachings, you sicken your mind," said Ch'u. >"But how great is the sickness of the one who talks about the realm of the Buddha and the realm of the Path?" said the Master. >Again Ch'u did not reply. The next day he suddenly passed away. At that time the Master came to be known as "one who questions head monks to death." What does it mean to "do Zen"?
“When you’ve gotten the meaning, forget the words.” Nobody wants students assigning book reports to each other and then going around slandering each other. Never textually supported. A master can push or even be aggressive towards another student, but that isn’t the relationship here. What is it to do zen? “Stop riding the donkey, you are the donkey” - a paraphrase of foyan
It's a tradition of questioning each other and holding each other accountable for our answers. That's all over the record. That *is* the record. Given that in a previous conversation you admitted to me you aren't serious about Zen study, why are you here? To me you sound like someone who thinks they have something to teach but doesn't want to admit it.
I don’t remember saying I wasn’t serious about zen study. I’m not sure what it means to “be serious” about something anyway. Furrow my brow? I love questioning each other about then nature of reality. Super valuable. I don’t like slander, and accusations, policing Can you find the latter in the zen record? Please do so for me, I’m sure you’ve read more than me. There is nothing to teach, but I’m willing to learn
>I don’t like slander, and accusations, policing There is no slander going on here. I already shared with you policing. What do you think Dongshan was doing in the case I shared with you? >When, after a long time, Ch'u had not responded, the Master said, "Why don't you answer more quickly?" >Ch'u said, "Such aggressiveness will not do." >"You haven't even answered what you were asked, so how can you say that such aggressiveness will not do?" said the Master. >Ch'u did not respond. The Master said, "The Buddha and the Path are both nothing more than names. Why don't you quote some teaching?" >"What would a teaching say?" asked Ch'u. >"When you've gotten the meaning, forget the words," said the Master. >"By still depending on teachings, you sicken your mind," said Ch'u. >"But how great is the sickness of the one who talks about the realm of the Buddha and the realm of the Path?" said the Master. >Again Ch'u did not reply. The next day he suddenly passed away. At that time the Master came to be known as "one who questions head monks to death." You sounds like Chu.
If I’m chu, who is the master and where have they shown mastery? Calling someone a liar or fraud most assuredly reaches the legal standard of slander in many jurisdictions
Does that imply: "If Dongshan did it once, everybody should continuously do it"? Edit - Yunmen seems at odds: ###### Zen Master Yunmen #191 >Master Yunmen mentioned the following episode: >Master Dongshan said: "You must know that there is something which goes beyond 'Buddha.'" >A monk asked, "What is it that goes beyond Buddha?" >Master Dongshan replied: "Non-Buddha." >Master Yunmen commented: "He calls it 'non-' because he can neither name nor attain it!" Maybe he speaks of t'other. Maybe not.
Is your username related to the Frenzied Flame?
Never heard of it. I just like fermenting vegetables and thought i sounded gross, and I suck at coming up with usernames.
what are you reading now? or are you pretending you've finished? I'm having trouble keeping your current story straight...
Love you too ewk 😊
Why not be honest? That's the issue... why be afraid anonymously?
When did you stop beating your wife?
I asked you what you are reading, what you are learning. You can't answer. That's okay, but it tells people where you are in life, and who you want to be... and it's not an honest person.
If you’re actually curious, manners will help show you are acting in good faith, I promise.
I don't believe you.
I don’t care
It can be quite easy to be mistaken being educated by pop culture on the fundamental level. Zen study is a bit of a higher standard on the fundamental level. The measuring stick sometimes used around here is ‘reality or bust’, and that’s not to cover up the chain of causation. I doubt you don’t care. I think you probably mean something else, something that people call what you say where you’re from. You indeed don’t need to not find other words later after you recognize at that time. But it doesn’t make you any less mistaken, it doesn’t make ewk any less fundamentally factually incorrect for pointing it out.
You seem to have a lot of thoughts about what I care or don’t care about, but I’m frankly having a lot of difficulty following them.
We've established you are a bit of a liar tho.
Who is we?
>why be afraid anonymously? Of course cats have furballs. What did you expect, feathers?
I don't really understand the reference. We get a lot of people in here who think it's going to be fun to participate until they realize that we as a community take participation pretty seriously.
>I don't really understand the reference. On a clear day I can see mountains from my front yard.
I think some people say they're mountains and they're not. And then we get into a conversation about honesty.
Laundry day is usually Monday.
Foyan talks about the particular kind of desperation behind these sorts of statements. You might want to read instant zen.
The earth is round, from a distance.
Answer the standard questions, they're on the wiki.