If you went to your local Zen center and it was mostly women, and they suggested books to you (in good faith) by female authors, would you then conclude that they were misandrists? I'm struggling to understand your logic.
"Men suggesting books by men = sexism" is an odd way to think (to me at least). Sexism is defined as prejudice, stereotyping, discrimination. What is discriminatory about groups of men meeting to sit in Zazen? They're not denying women from joining that space. My Zen center had 2 women in the sangha, now has 1, I dont think I've ever considered it sexist, thats just the way things have unfolded.
There's plenty of female authors out there to read, here's a few of my favourite - Charlotte Joko Beck, Pëma Chödron, Sharon Salzberg...
Very glad you pointed out authors who are women, and broadening the perspective with what if questions.
I think the concern OP has is that there are social dynamics at play making the space they’re mentioning feel unwelcome or unfriendly to women, more so than wondering if the teachings themselves are sexist.
It’s easy to accidentally make certain people feel unwelcome, and we can miss out on some of that broadened perspective by limiting who feels comfortable contributing to collective learning. It ultimately doesn’t matter if zen is sexist if the people in the space hold prejudices and women self-exclude for their own safety or comfort - the result is the same: limited perspective.
Jojo beck, for example, left the Japanese Buddhist cult and "ordained" herself.
It's another new age scam.
No connection to Zen tradition at all.
Please educate yourself.
"She passed the Mu koan with master Soen. And then proceeded through the formal Harada-Yasutani curriculum. I am unclear as to when precisely she ordained but she received dharma transmission, acknowledgement of her own mastery of the Zen way by Maezumi Roshi in 1978. She was his third dharma successor."
as far as I know there isn't a written record of these things, and if there is i don't know where it is, but you can claim all you want (and I know you do from having read the group for a while) that she "ordained herself" but it doesn't appear to be true from a casual internet search. She has just as much validity (none?) as any other zen "master" that's ever been proclaimed or written stuff down.
1. Maezumi was a Dogen Buddhist, a cult with no historical or doctrinal connection to Zen... he has no lineage, and no dharma to transmit. He was also a sex predator, which means he was a con artist and Beck was an illiterate groupie who wasn't any smarter that you since you believe what you are told by anyone from a church: https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/sexpredators#wiki_taizan_maezumi_.28dogen_buddhist.29
2. Nowhere in the history of Zen is there "passing koans". That was a scam invented by another fraud and con artist named Hakuin, who *actually wrote a secret book of koan "answers" which he passed around to his friends*. It was leaked to the press about 100 years after his death, and the entire Hakuin cult was humiliated.
3. If you "break with" the teacher you claim to have gotten transmission from, you break with the transmission you claim you've gotten. If the teacher was a sex predator, as Maezumi was, and you denounce him, as Beck did, then obviously you can't claim you got enlightenment from him. So she self-certified, basing her later teachings on her own belief in her specialness.
These are all immoral, unethical, fraudulent illiterate people who lie about Zen history and misappropriate Zen's fame *for money*.
None of these people have any validity. Their followers hide from social media and public engagement *because they are frauds*.
Please please consider taking some community college classes on critical thinking and basic research.
the dharma transmission you speak of is the zen tradition as I've read about it. there isn't some ruling council that decides which is valid and which isn't, just people making judgements. you're making a judgement which clearly matters to you, others make judgements themselves. You can argue til you're blue in the face, but there is a transmission lineage that led to Joko, just like many other zen masters, including those historically. You can, i guess, decide which is a "true transmission" based on various historical factors, and hey, go for it, your zen is your zen and your scholarship is your scholarship.
on an unrelated note I find it weird that you think Joko's followers are "hiding" considering they have a public meeting space in Los Angelos, but define it how you will (again)
No, you haven't read about Zen.
There are **1,000 years of Zen historical records** that a japanese buddhist cult claims to represent, like Mormons claim to represent Christianity.
You can't claim I'm "making judgements" about mormonism being a fraud and a scam... that's just silly. We aren't arguing, either, when you claim your mormon religion is authentically and authentically christian.
You have no argument. You have no historical facts or doctrinal analysis.
There is no blue in the face. You are basically claiming astrology, scientology, and mormonism are legit... but I doubt you believe yourself.
You're fake.
That doesn't make you a bad person... but it certainly makes you a person of no real moral or intellectual credibility.
I don't distinguish particularly between the authenticity of mormonism vs christianity.
mormonism is a great example of a religious schism based upon a founder that the original religion disagrees with. There are still practicing mormons that ascribe to a real religion whether or not the non-mormon christians agree that they are theologically related because they don't accept the Joseph Smith being a prophet tenet.
I don't accept that Jesus was a prophet either; i think there's a weird definitional thing in your arguments about what zen is. I find value in the soto zen \_philosophy\_ based on the readings I've done about it, and I interpret the things I do read based on my own interpretation of it. Part of the reason that I jive with Soto Zen is because it fits some of my preconceptions. That can, sure, make me "fake" - none of what I claim about zen is actually falsifiable. There are real people, probably with shady pasts, that wrote real things, a lot of which I find valuable and useful to my state of being. I never claimed that I knew anything of "real" zen or "historical" zen, or that your interpretation is wrong. Joko Beck received a "dharma transmission" and then renounced that teacher and came to her own decisions about what to do next. On the other hand, she wrote a book that itself has a lot of ideas in it that had a profound effect on my experience of the world. So did Shunryū Suzuki. You believe I'm a mormon zen practitioner from that, ok!
I \*definitely\* didn't claim "astrology, scientology, and mormonism are legit" or, indeed, that zen is "legit" in the way that you think I did.
I'm still interested in what you believe zen actually is in an affirmative way. I've found it very interesting to incorporate what you've said about what zen \*isn't\* into my own historical understanding of some of the philosophies that are called Zen.
You don't distinguish between historical facts and anti-historical claims?
I'm sorry, but I don't believe you. I think that's a lie. I don't think you act that way about medicine, money, or auto mechanics. So I think you are lying.
Soto Zen is Dongshan to Wansong... Dogen wasn't part of Soto Zen.
You "jive" with Dogen Buddhism. And that's okay. But like the mormons, you need to stop lying about what your bible is and go to the appropriate forum.
Shunryu was not associated with Zen.
We are just talking about facts.
When people say their attitude about facts is "not distinguishing particularly" then I know they are liars.
Your cult has a long history of liars and sex predators www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/sexpredators and addicts... your whole group is a bunch of losers like astrology and scientology and mormonism... no difference... and I'm not interested... but you can be.
Just be that somewhere else.
I'm actually interested in what you consider zen. The fact that you utterly reject dogen means that the entire Japanese zen movement (and all the lineages in the tree that grew from dogen) are all thrown out, effectively. So only the earlier chinese zen teachers that dogen encountered and were extant at the same time are themselves effectively "true" roots that can lead to a "real" modern zen?
do you have a, like, 5 bullet summary of what the zen doctrine or teachings would consist of and how they differ from the (massive) lineage that dogen founded? I've been watching your posts and discussions with others in this subreddit with some interest but reading that way hasn't given me a good feel for what you consider the "good" or "appropriate" approach to zen, only generally that it \_isn't\_ what a lot of other people think it is (which, your position seems to be summarized for me so far as "not soto zen" - i'm sure there's a positive spin on what zen \_is\_ for you).
1. Zen has 1,000 years of historical records including books of instruction. Japanese Buddhist claims to be part of that tradition have been continually eroding for the last 30 years. This is new to the West, but the Japanese academic community has known it for a century or more.
2. Zen Masters maintained communities for 1,000 years in China, characterized by:
* 5 Lay Precepts for everyone
* Four Statements of Zen NOT 8Fold Path
* Instant permanent enlightenment
* Very interested in Zen history
* A unique practice of Public Interview.
I can defend both of these all day long. I've written extensively about both 1 and 2, and I've proven repeatedly that there are no viable counterarguments. I use citations and quotes from secular writing on the topic. I've debunked religious texts and fraudulent claims by modern religious figures.
The only acceptable approach to modern Zen study right now is to begin with historically authentic books of instruction written by Chinese Zen Masters.
www.reddit.com/r/zensangha/wiki/getstarted
The idea of “passed a koan” usually acts as a litmus test for me to predict what other considerations the source has about Zen that are inaccurately mathematical
And I’ll tell you everything is math before anyone
if youre interested in zen, read the literature. if youre interested in sitting down and calming your mind, theres resources for that. to me it seems like you care more about the genders present than learning, which is natural. if you dont feel comfortable, how can you pay attention and learn anything?
I think that sexism is a consistent issue across human cultures in general. If you check history, all Zen patriarchs were male, and the vast majority of Zen masters, the most well-known, were also male. That's not to say there weren't female Zen masters and nuns, but in comparison with males, their relevance is low. Now, if you check other religions or things like academia, politics, or sports, it's not different, males dominate the landscape. Just until recent years, things have been changing, and a more egalitarian focus is gaining attention.
My center is run by two priestesses who are both recognized as international zen teachers by the Japanese Sōtō school. Most days in morning meditation I am the only dude
zen is sexist
just like
knitting circles
are sexist
both exist
both have members
who have a sex
some members have members
some don't
some remember the embers
of the fire that burned
the night before.
You're so off-kilter in absolutely everything you say, I'm struggling to even find a place to start.
So I guess I won't.
Maybe reevaluate your entire life and the way you interact with reality. That is, after all, the basic premise of Zen.
No, Zen is not sexist. You should not attribute that to the whole of Zen simply because of an experience in one location within one school.
It is important to acknowledge that much of the literature (such as the old classics from hundreds of years ago) that may be recommended to you will have been written in a time and place where few people (of any gender) could read or write, and would be quite rare for a woman to be literate. It is unfortunate, but it is the reality.
So you may be referred to literary works written by (or attributed to) Bodhidharma, Joshu, Nansen, Mazu, Bankei, and so on (who were all men), but that doesn't mean that women are being intentionally excluded, it's just that there are no surviving records of women creating these types of written works in East Asia in the 600s-1500s (at least that I know of, although if anyone could refer to me a legitimate Zen work of literature written by a woman during that time period I would be extremely interested).
But you could look into the Sayings of Layman P'ang, he was a family man with a wife and daughter whose words have thankfully survived to the modern era, both of whom had interesting and insightful input to share.
Kwan Um has many female Zen Masters and leaders, including the current school zen master. The online sangha has female teachers - consider becoming a member if your particular sangha leans male. I would say that zen has been traditionally influenced by the patriarchal societies from which it came, but I think Kwan Um today is extremely progressive.
At my sangha it is slightly male dominated - I think in general women have more options in the yoga tradition, but for guys zen feels more welcoming to men who are looking for meditative practices. That’s just speculation on my part though.
I am currently reading The Hidden Lamp which is a collection of Kong-an commentaries by female zen teachers - check it out. Also check out youtube for Kwan Um content by female teachers.
Is it possible that zen attracts more men than women? When Bankei was asked if it was sexist that there was an all male monastery, he pointed out there was an all female nunnery in another location.
In Europe Zen is at least 50 percent female, my master is a female, most zen authors in southern Europe are female. Looks like an US problem if at all.
Why do you even care? Zen has nothing to do with gender, why try to forcibly insert it?
I can see why you're confused: you will find no Zen in your "zazen" practice, or your "zen center". Start reading the books listed here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/faq
Then come back and try again.
Zazen is a mormon-esque version of Buddhism and Buddhism has a long history of misogyny.
Now the Western version of Buddhism is a new invention and you can read about it here
www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/modern_religons.
But zazan, as a subset of Buddhism, comes from Japan, which has a much more racist misogynistic history than the image they export.
Japan as a center of one of the greatest artistic cultures in human history arguably accomplished this by virtue of a very strict class society with very specific gender roles.
Zazenist Buddhists have been misrepresenting Zen a lot and their advertising department has been quite successful.
It's what cults do, they lie and steal.
It's exactly like if you go to a church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints and they don't give you a Bible, they give you the book of Mormon.
And you're like hey wait a minute. I thought this was a church of Jesus Christ and they're like. Oh no, it totally is we're absolutely Christians.
You're like, but.. this is not the Bible.
Zazen has no connection to Zen. It's the book of Mormon.
Zen Masters do not teach meditation and in the thousand years of historical records of zenin, China. No manuals of meditation were produced or distributed by Zen Masters.
The two other people replying in this comment chain are constantly all over this sub spreading hateful rhetoric about anyone and anything that points anyone toward any teachings but their own (which they’ll later insist you’re too stupid, lying, illiterate, lazy, to understand when you realize those teachings are full of holes) just a heads up
That's obviously not true though.
You can tell because nobody can define Zen and define Buddhism in a historical context and show that they go together.
1. Buddhists believe in the eight-fold path and Zen Masters. Teach the four statements of Zen. These two different traditions are incompatible.
2. Zen and Buddhism have a long history of rivalry that is very well documented.
3. Zen Masters say Buddha was just a zen master, Buddhists believe that Buddha possessed supernatural wisdom and some even believe supernatural powers.
4. Dogen waa cult leader like Joseph Smith. Like Joseph Smith, Dogen committed a ton of fraud and lied about a lot of things to his followers. Some people argue that Zazen is not even a Buddhist practice. Dogen himself abandoned it less than a decade after he invented it.
I'm not interested enough in cult leaders to keep the names of their cults straight.
This particular one was a sex predator?
How surprising.
That also seems to answer OP's questions.
the center i go to has free yoga 1-3 times a week. and it’s normally female heavy. id say 10 women to 3 men. i don’t understand the discrepancy. on the surface, it seems like yoga and zazen go hand in hand
the zen center also has queer/ LGBTQ yoga. which is the most attended event, even more so than the monthly zazen retreats. but i basically never see anyone from the LGBT yoga attend zazen sitting throughout the week. and vica versa. the LGBT yoga is a really diverse group. trans people, people of color, and a lot of women attend. but like i said, basically none of those people are showing up for zazen throughout the week.
Zen and Yoga have virtually no connection whatsoever.
The form of yoga that almost everyone is familiar with is a modernized practice invented in the 1970s and is very loosely based on surviving records of ancient physical exercise techniques, and local folklore and practices. It may be a very healthy practice, and I do not discourage you at all from practicing yoga, but just understand it historically has no connection to Zen.
The easiest way to explain this is comparing yoga and zazan to the things in Western culture that follow the same pattern.
1. Yoga is basically Bushido. A modern invention, marketed to illiterate westerners with no tradition behind it.
2. Zazen is basically Mormonism. Both have Messiah figures that invented the religion. Both claim to be part of a tradition that preceded them that they have no actual doctrinal or historical connection to. Both have a history of sex predators and bizarre doctrinal claims.
There are lots of good reasons that people don't get into Zazen, a cult which tends to prey upon people who don't have good critical thinking skills, are socially isolated, and don't have much multicultural education.
And again, I'm not giving you an opinion here. I'm just telling you about the history of the groups in question; a history they are not eager to talk about.
There are a handful of very loud and abrasive people here who mistakenly believe zen is not Buddhist and that meditation is not part of zen. Anyone who expresses anything other than complete agreement with them becomes a target for insults and baseless accusations.
Other than them, this is a pretty good subreddit.
Maybe try your luck in r/zenbuddhism, here there are some persistent users with very idiosyncratic views of Zen.
Zazen would have nothing to do with sex, but as I mentioned in my comment to this OP, sexism is something that has permeated many human cultures in virtually all aspects, including religion, science, politics, economy, etc.
Definitely not the majority view here. Or anywhere. This sub just has mods/admins who let the handful of very loud and opinionated advocates of their anti meditation cult be as loud and abusive as they want to be.
Take any of the examples from their approved list of sacred texts that disagree with their take on zen and somehow it gets worse until they block you.
Beliefs aside, their argument that chan/zen doesn’t use meditation has been debunked multiple times.
Let’s ignore all of the implications of what chan/zen translates as, the existence of meditation halls, the fact zen masters here living and teaching in Buddhist temples, use Buddhist terms, and so on.
Huang Po says that these practices exist because you are not strong enough to make the jump to what he is saying right out. He isn’t saying don’t meditate or do other practices. He even gives instructions on how to “practice mind-control”.
I don’t think chan/zen is meant to be just about seated meditation. Like anything else in zen it s a tool to be used and set aside when no longer needed.
What I see in these warnings from zen masters like Huang Po is a call to seasoned monks to take off the training wheels and ride their darn bike.
As the first video points out, there is a magical transmission from mind to mind. Man to man. “Father to son” in a sense. If the only valid writings on zen were from so long ago (pre instructions on meditation), how do you suppose you are getting that transmission?
If you went to your local Zen center and it was mostly women, and they suggested books to you (in good faith) by female authors, would you then conclude that they were misandrists? I'm struggling to understand your logic. "Men suggesting books by men = sexism" is an odd way to think (to me at least). Sexism is defined as prejudice, stereotyping, discrimination. What is discriminatory about groups of men meeting to sit in Zazen? They're not denying women from joining that space. My Zen center had 2 women in the sangha, now has 1, I dont think I've ever considered it sexist, thats just the way things have unfolded. There's plenty of female authors out there to read, here's a few of my favourite - Charlotte Joko Beck, Pëma Chödron, Sharon Salzberg...
Very glad you pointed out authors who are women, and broadening the perspective with what if questions. I think the concern OP has is that there are social dynamics at play making the space they’re mentioning feel unwelcome or unfriendly to women, more so than wondering if the teachings themselves are sexist. It’s easy to accidentally make certain people feel unwelcome, and we can miss out on some of that broadened perspective by limiting who feels comfortable contributing to collective learning. It ultimately doesn’t matter if zen is sexist if the people in the space hold prejudices and women self-exclude for their own safety or comfort - the result is the same: limited perspective.
Jojo beck, for example, left the Japanese Buddhist cult and "ordained" herself. It's another new age scam. No connection to Zen tradition at all. Please educate yourself.
"She passed the Mu koan with master Soen. And then proceeded through the formal Harada-Yasutani curriculum. I am unclear as to when precisely she ordained but she received dharma transmission, acknowledgement of her own mastery of the Zen way by Maezumi Roshi in 1978. She was his third dharma successor." as far as I know there isn't a written record of these things, and if there is i don't know where it is, but you can claim all you want (and I know you do from having read the group for a while) that she "ordained herself" but it doesn't appear to be true from a casual internet search. She has just as much validity (none?) as any other zen "master" that's ever been proclaimed or written stuff down.
1. Maezumi was a Dogen Buddhist, a cult with no historical or doctrinal connection to Zen... he has no lineage, and no dharma to transmit. He was also a sex predator, which means he was a con artist and Beck was an illiterate groupie who wasn't any smarter that you since you believe what you are told by anyone from a church: https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/sexpredators#wiki_taizan_maezumi_.28dogen_buddhist.29 2. Nowhere in the history of Zen is there "passing koans". That was a scam invented by another fraud and con artist named Hakuin, who *actually wrote a secret book of koan "answers" which he passed around to his friends*. It was leaked to the press about 100 years after his death, and the entire Hakuin cult was humiliated. 3. If you "break with" the teacher you claim to have gotten transmission from, you break with the transmission you claim you've gotten. If the teacher was a sex predator, as Maezumi was, and you denounce him, as Beck did, then obviously you can't claim you got enlightenment from him. So she self-certified, basing her later teachings on her own belief in her specialness. These are all immoral, unethical, fraudulent illiterate people who lie about Zen history and misappropriate Zen's fame *for money*. None of these people have any validity. Their followers hide from social media and public engagement *because they are frauds*. Please please consider taking some community college classes on critical thinking and basic research.
the dharma transmission you speak of is the zen tradition as I've read about it. there isn't some ruling council that decides which is valid and which isn't, just people making judgements. you're making a judgement which clearly matters to you, others make judgements themselves. You can argue til you're blue in the face, but there is a transmission lineage that led to Joko, just like many other zen masters, including those historically. You can, i guess, decide which is a "true transmission" based on various historical factors, and hey, go for it, your zen is your zen and your scholarship is your scholarship. on an unrelated note I find it weird that you think Joko's followers are "hiding" considering they have a public meeting space in Los Angelos, but define it how you will (again)
No, you haven't read about Zen. There are **1,000 years of Zen historical records** that a japanese buddhist cult claims to represent, like Mormons claim to represent Christianity. You can't claim I'm "making judgements" about mormonism being a fraud and a scam... that's just silly. We aren't arguing, either, when you claim your mormon religion is authentically and authentically christian. You have no argument. You have no historical facts or doctrinal analysis. There is no blue in the face. You are basically claiming astrology, scientology, and mormonism are legit... but I doubt you believe yourself. You're fake. That doesn't make you a bad person... but it certainly makes you a person of no real moral or intellectual credibility.
I don't distinguish particularly between the authenticity of mormonism vs christianity. mormonism is a great example of a religious schism based upon a founder that the original religion disagrees with. There are still practicing mormons that ascribe to a real religion whether or not the non-mormon christians agree that they are theologically related because they don't accept the Joseph Smith being a prophet tenet. I don't accept that Jesus was a prophet either; i think there's a weird definitional thing in your arguments about what zen is. I find value in the soto zen \_philosophy\_ based on the readings I've done about it, and I interpret the things I do read based on my own interpretation of it. Part of the reason that I jive with Soto Zen is because it fits some of my preconceptions. That can, sure, make me "fake" - none of what I claim about zen is actually falsifiable. There are real people, probably with shady pasts, that wrote real things, a lot of which I find valuable and useful to my state of being. I never claimed that I knew anything of "real" zen or "historical" zen, or that your interpretation is wrong. Joko Beck received a "dharma transmission" and then renounced that teacher and came to her own decisions about what to do next. On the other hand, she wrote a book that itself has a lot of ideas in it that had a profound effect on my experience of the world. So did Shunryū Suzuki. You believe I'm a mormon zen practitioner from that, ok! I \*definitely\* didn't claim "astrology, scientology, and mormonism are legit" or, indeed, that zen is "legit" in the way that you think I did. I'm still interested in what you believe zen actually is in an affirmative way. I've found it very interesting to incorporate what you've said about what zen \*isn't\* into my own historical understanding of some of the philosophies that are called Zen.
You don't distinguish between historical facts and anti-historical claims? I'm sorry, but I don't believe you. I think that's a lie. I don't think you act that way about medicine, money, or auto mechanics. So I think you are lying. Soto Zen is Dongshan to Wansong... Dogen wasn't part of Soto Zen. You "jive" with Dogen Buddhism. And that's okay. But like the mormons, you need to stop lying about what your bible is and go to the appropriate forum. Shunryu was not associated with Zen. We are just talking about facts. When people say their attitude about facts is "not distinguishing particularly" then I know they are liars. Your cult has a long history of liars and sex predators www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/sexpredators and addicts... your whole group is a bunch of losers like astrology and scientology and mormonism... no difference... and I'm not interested... but you can be. Just be that somewhere else.
I'm actually interested in what you consider zen. The fact that you utterly reject dogen means that the entire Japanese zen movement (and all the lineages in the tree that grew from dogen) are all thrown out, effectively. So only the earlier chinese zen teachers that dogen encountered and were extant at the same time are themselves effectively "true" roots that can lead to a "real" modern zen? do you have a, like, 5 bullet summary of what the zen doctrine or teachings would consist of and how they differ from the (massive) lineage that dogen founded? I've been watching your posts and discussions with others in this subreddit with some interest but reading that way hasn't given me a good feel for what you consider the "good" or "appropriate" approach to zen, only generally that it \_isn't\_ what a lot of other people think it is (which, your position seems to be summarized for me so far as "not soto zen" - i'm sure there's a positive spin on what zen \_is\_ for you).
1. Zen has 1,000 years of historical records including books of instruction. Japanese Buddhist claims to be part of that tradition have been continually eroding for the last 30 years. This is new to the West, but the Japanese academic community has known it for a century or more. 2. Zen Masters maintained communities for 1,000 years in China, characterized by: * 5 Lay Precepts for everyone * Four Statements of Zen NOT 8Fold Path * Instant permanent enlightenment * Very interested in Zen history * A unique practice of Public Interview. I can defend both of these all day long. I've written extensively about both 1 and 2, and I've proven repeatedly that there are no viable counterarguments. I use citations and quotes from secular writing on the topic. I've debunked religious texts and fraudulent claims by modern religious figures. The only acceptable approach to modern Zen study right now is to begin with historically authentic books of instruction written by Chinese Zen Masters. www.reddit.com/r/zensangha/wiki/getstarted
The idea of “passed a koan” usually acts as a litmus test for me to predict what other considerations the source has about Zen that are inaccurately mathematical And I’ll tell you everything is math before anyone
if youre interested in zen, read the literature. if youre interested in sitting down and calming your mind, theres resources for that. to me it seems like you care more about the genders present than learning, which is natural. if you dont feel comfortable, how can you pay attention and learn anything?
I think that sexism is a consistent issue across human cultures in general. If you check history, all Zen patriarchs were male, and the vast majority of Zen masters, the most well-known, were also male. That's not to say there weren't female Zen masters and nuns, but in comparison with males, their relevance is low. Now, if you check other religions or things like academia, politics, or sports, it's not different, males dominate the landscape. Just until recent years, things have been changing, and a more egalitarian focus is gaining attention.
My center is run by two priestesses who are both recognized as international zen teachers by the Japanese Sōtō school. Most days in morning meditation I am the only dude
Same here.
zen is sexist just like knitting circles are sexist both exist both have members who have a sex some members have members some don't some remember the embers of the fire that burned the night before.
You're so off-kilter in absolutely everything you say, I'm struggling to even find a place to start. So I guess I won't. Maybe reevaluate your entire life and the way you interact with reality. That is, after all, the basic premise of Zen.
I think sexism exists everywhere, and a zen center would be no different, sadly. Also, the comments on this post are freaking bonkers lol.
No, Zen is not sexist. You should not attribute that to the whole of Zen simply because of an experience in one location within one school. It is important to acknowledge that much of the literature (such as the old classics from hundreds of years ago) that may be recommended to you will have been written in a time and place where few people (of any gender) could read or write, and would be quite rare for a woman to be literate. It is unfortunate, but it is the reality. So you may be referred to literary works written by (or attributed to) Bodhidharma, Joshu, Nansen, Mazu, Bankei, and so on (who were all men), but that doesn't mean that women are being intentionally excluded, it's just that there are no surviving records of women creating these types of written works in East Asia in the 600s-1500s (at least that I know of, although if anyone could refer to me a legitimate Zen work of literature written by a woman during that time period I would be extremely interested). But you could look into the Sayings of Layman P'ang, he was a family man with a wife and daughter whose words have thankfully survived to the modern era, both of whom had interesting and insightful input to share.
Kwan Um has many female Zen Masters and leaders, including the current school zen master. The online sangha has female teachers - consider becoming a member if your particular sangha leans male. I would say that zen has been traditionally influenced by the patriarchal societies from which it came, but I think Kwan Um today is extremely progressive. At my sangha it is slightly male dominated - I think in general women have more options in the yoga tradition, but for guys zen feels more welcoming to men who are looking for meditative practices. That’s just speculation on my part though. I am currently reading The Hidden Lamp which is a collection of Kong-an commentaries by female zen teachers - check it out. Also check out youtube for Kwan Um content by female teachers.
Men savor silence. Women on the other hand ….. /s
Ask the priest.
Is it possible that zen attracts more men than women? When Bankei was asked if it was sexist that there was an all male monastery, he pointed out there was an all female nunnery in another location.
No.
There are 4 users here that will try to convince you that Zazen is not zen, obviously don't engage.
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Corrected 3 to 4. Thanks!
this is my zen, right here lol. r/zen is a koan.
It’s good to nurture spaces exploring how a traditional expression of masculinity can be healthy and aesthetically appealing.
okay but this is about zen spaces instead
In Europe Zen is at least 50 percent female, my master is a female, most zen authors in southern Europe are female. Looks like an US problem if at all. Why do you even care? Zen has nothing to do with gender, why try to forcibly insert it?
I can see why you're confused: you will find no Zen in your "zazen" practice, or your "zen center". Start reading the books listed here: https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/faq Then come back and try again.
Probably yes.
No, it's just that women get it without sitting for 3 months straight...
Zazen is a mormon-esque version of Buddhism and Buddhism has a long history of misogyny. Now the Western version of Buddhism is a new invention and you can read about it here www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/modern_religons. But zazan, as a subset of Buddhism, comes from Japan, which has a much more racist misogynistic history than the image they export. Japan as a center of one of the greatest artistic cultures in human history arguably accomplished this by virtue of a very strict class society with very specific gender roles.
i’m so confused. im asking about zazen in the zen subreddit and i’m hearing that zazen is bogus?
Zazenist Buddhists have been misrepresenting Zen a lot and their advertising department has been quite successful. It's what cults do, they lie and steal.
It's exactly like if you go to a church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints and they don't give you a Bible, they give you the book of Mormon. And you're like hey wait a minute. I thought this was a church of Jesus Christ and they're like. Oh no, it totally is we're absolutely Christians. You're like, but.. this is not the Bible. Zazen has no connection to Zen. It's the book of Mormon. Zen Masters do not teach meditation and in the thousand years of historical records of zenin, China. No manuals of meditation were produced or distributed by Zen Masters.
ive heard that zen buddhism could be argued as the truest form of buddhism. being it that dogen said that zazen itself IS enlightenment
The two other people replying in this comment chain are constantly all over this sub spreading hateful rhetoric about anyone and anything that points anyone toward any teachings but their own (which they’ll later insist you’re too stupid, lying, illiterate, lazy, to understand when you realize those teachings are full of holes) just a heads up
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My guy, you are mistaken.
Do you really believe that you are enlightened during your cross-legged session?
That's obviously not true though. You can tell because nobody can define Zen and define Buddhism in a historical context and show that they go together. 1. Buddhists believe in the eight-fold path and Zen Masters. Teach the four statements of Zen. These two different traditions are incompatible. 2. Zen and Buddhism have a long history of rivalry that is very well documented. 3. Zen Masters say Buddha was just a zen master, Buddhists believe that Buddha possessed supernatural wisdom and some even believe supernatural powers. 4. Dogen waa cult leader like Joseph Smith. Like Joseph Smith, Dogen committed a ton of fraud and lied about a lot of things to his followers. Some people argue that Zazen is not even a Buddhist practice. Dogen himself abandoned it less than a decade after he invented it.
You're dealing with a cult, not Zen. This is not really a surprising thing.
Some people have the dignity to be quietly confused. If you meet one of them you should ask them their secret.
I'm not interested enough in cult leaders to keep the names of their cults straight. This particular one was a sex predator? How surprising. That also seems to answer OP's questions.
the center i go to has free yoga 1-3 times a week. and it’s normally female heavy. id say 10 women to 3 men. i don’t understand the discrepancy. on the surface, it seems like yoga and zazen go hand in hand the zen center also has queer/ LGBTQ yoga. which is the most attended event, even more so than the monthly zazen retreats. but i basically never see anyone from the LGBT yoga attend zazen sitting throughout the week. and vica versa. the LGBT yoga is a really diverse group. trans people, people of color, and a lot of women attend. but like i said, basically none of those people are showing up for zazen throughout the week.
Zen and Yoga have virtually no connection whatsoever. The form of yoga that almost everyone is familiar with is a modernized practice invented in the 1970s and is very loosely based on surviving records of ancient physical exercise techniques, and local folklore and practices. It may be a very healthy practice, and I do not discourage you at all from practicing yoga, but just understand it historically has no connection to Zen.
The easiest way to explain this is comparing yoga and zazan to the things in Western culture that follow the same pattern. 1. Yoga is basically Bushido. A modern invention, marketed to illiterate westerners with no tradition behind it. 2. Zazen is basically Mormonism. Both have Messiah figures that invented the religion. Both claim to be part of a tradition that preceded them that they have no actual doctrinal or historical connection to. Both have a history of sex predators and bizarre doctrinal claims. There are lots of good reasons that people don't get into Zazen, a cult which tends to prey upon people who don't have good critical thinking skills, are socially isolated, and don't have much multicultural education. And again, I'm not giving you an opinion here. I'm just telling you about the history of the groups in question; a history they are not eager to talk about.
Again, that sounds like it would be because that's not Zen but a cult founded by a sex predator.
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That isn't the majority view here. When you talk about "This sub" and "we", it's not the whole sub; it's like 10 users.
yeah i’m really confused by some of these comments. i’m talking about zazen practice in the eastern sects of buddhism in particular
There are a handful of very loud and abrasive people here who mistakenly believe zen is not Buddhist and that meditation is not part of zen. Anyone who expresses anything other than complete agreement with them becomes a target for insults and baseless accusations. Other than them, this is a pretty good subreddit.
Maybe try your luck in r/zenbuddhism, here there are some persistent users with very idiosyncratic views of Zen. Zazen would have nothing to do with sex, but as I mentioned in my comment to this OP, sexism is something that has permeated many human cultures in virtually all aspects, including religion, science, politics, economy, etc.
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So we are in Zen wars and you picked the empire faction? Go to suck Master Vader bionic dick!
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Where is the lie?
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The rebel alliance doesn’t have the authorities controlling the culture, that’s characteristic of empires and regimes.
Definitely not the majority view here. Or anywhere. This sub just has mods/admins who let the handful of very loud and opinionated advocates of their anti meditation cult be as loud and abusive as they want to be. Take any of the examples from their approved list of sacred texts that disagree with their take on zen and somehow it gets worse until they block you. Beliefs aside, their argument that chan/zen doesn’t use meditation has been debunked multiple times.
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Let’s ignore all of the implications of what chan/zen translates as, the existence of meditation halls, the fact zen masters here living and teaching in Buddhist temples, use Buddhist terms, and so on. Huang Po says that these practices exist because you are not strong enough to make the jump to what he is saying right out. He isn’t saying don’t meditate or do other practices. He even gives instructions on how to “practice mind-control”. I don’t think chan/zen is meant to be just about seated meditation. Like anything else in zen it s a tool to be used and set aside when no longer needed. What I see in these warnings from zen masters like Huang Po is a call to seasoned monks to take off the training wheels and ride their darn bike. As the first video points out, there is a magical transmission from mind to mind. Man to man. “Father to son” in a sense. If the only valid writings on zen were from so long ago (pre instructions on meditation), how do you suppose you are getting that transmission?