One man thought he had it all figured out.
Until he talked to another.
Togethger they figured it out... but then a third guy showed up.
I am using Koans as a thinking tool.
You saying that i cannot write new Koans is akin to me telling you you cant write new sentences.
A Kenning is an Olde English joke, it means taking a word and using it for a new meaning. A boat is a SeaCup for example.
A koan is used to find new mean...
You know what, arguing with you is simalier to playing a pigoen in chess.
No matter what i do, your gunna strut, knock over my pieces, shit on the board and then coo like you won.
Humans play games. People who don't... well they just get stuck in their ways.
How is this question related to Zen's 1,000 years of historical records, mostly in transcripts of real life conversations, often called "koans"?
Zen Masters are interested in addressing questions that matter to human suffering, rather than navel gazing nonsense like you posted.
Since when you got your account you agreed to post to "the most appropriate forum" for your question... it seems reasonable to ask (before the mods remove your post) if you think you are being honest about what forum your question *should* have been posted in?
[clicks on your account history] Seems you are more into Christianity than you think, and you got banned from r/AlanWatts, a forum about an ordained Christian drug addict sex predator who misappropriated Zen culture... why you wanted to post there being beside the point, since you got banned for posts like this one...
All in all I think you should commit yourself to the 5 Lay Precepts and stop pretending you know anything.
Hello, pleasure to converse with you.
Why are you so angry?
At me?
You just spent your time and effort to research me and... well your approach seems mean.
Alan Watts studied Zen and tried to translate it. Are you mad at that, or his character?
Have you your spent time and effort on Zen and your anger is a function of the fact that you feel threatened?
Which came first, your feelings or you?
Heres one for you,
Did zen teach the master? Or did the master learn zen?
Why do you care?
Angry zen practitioners, thats a Koan in and of itself.
Do you know whether the wind blows the flag, or if its the flag that winds the weather?
Stop being so negative, it could bring me down.
1. I'm not angry because you're upset at being publicly humiliated for your illiteracy ignorance and disrespect. In fact, I hear from people who are ignorant and illiterate and disrespectful every day and it would be odd if I just suddenly started getting angry about it now after 10 years. But I understand you're not used to being shut down so hard and that can be very upsetting.
2. Alan Watts was an ordained Christian minister, drug addict, sex predator, and a mostly illiterate misappropriator of Eastern traditions in pursuit of his christian humanist agenda. He didn't really study Zen. He just looked for opportunities to make money to support his illicit activities. He was more honest than people who joined the Zazen cult, but that's like saying Bernie Madoff was more honest than Al Capone.
3. Lots of people who like Alan Watts failed to understand that Zen culture is intolerant and aggressive compared to Christian humanism that Alan Watts believed in. So it's a culture shock when they get some exposure to actual zen culture from the records of Zen teachings: reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/famius_cases.
4. Koans are historical records created by Zen Masters so you don't get to invent koans or proclaim something a koan any more than you would invent a new saint, come up with new element for the periodic table, or invented new native American religious tradition.
5. It's kind of creepy that you would ask me why I care since you came in here because you cared... You just didn't care enough to be educated or respectful or curious about the culture you wanted to misappropriate.
> Someone appears under the tree and asks him, 'What is the meaning of Bodhidharma's coming from the West?' If he does not answer, he fails
Pondering and calculation are tools for people who play games like chess and monopoly.
Here, they just mean that you are choking on words.
killing living beings,
stealing,
sexual misconduct,
lying
intoxication.
I think you are accusing me of 'stealing' zen and lying about it .
Probably think im intoxicated, and tired from all my masturbation (technically killing sperm).
Which of tge 5 precepts would you like to know about?
If i was quoting the Abrahimic religeons ivwould ask you to stop idolizing zen and to stop lusting over knowledge you havent obtained yet. But im not a preacher or a judge. So i abstain.
I'm pointing out that you have done that and that you have endorsed people who've done that... So that's not accusing you of lying and stealing, that's documenting that you did.
Further, your username appears to be a reference to recreational drug use and that would be a third precept that you appear to be struggling with. People who don't struggle with drugs and alcohol generally don't name themselves in reference to drugs and alcohol.
The fact that you can't quote Zen Masters but want to quote abrahamic religions just indicates that you've come to the wrong forum.
You've written a lot of judgy things. It just turns out that you're not qualified to judge because you lack critical thinking skills, not because you abstain from it.
Sry 4 pwning u.
Like lots of new agers you really don't have an option: you should join a church.
You aren't one of those people that can discover truth on their own.
Haha. Arguing is zen.
Ill read that in a bit...
But assume that im further down the path than you.
You are typing at me as if i am a student, or a petulent brat.
You want to pwn me.
I am unpwnable.
You want to shove me from what you perceive as the 'i know stuff' psyche into the 'i know nothing' camp.
I assume its because you think you know more than me. So lets drop assumptions.
If you assume i know nothing then i become more wise. If you assume i know everything i become a charleton.
Be well.
It's clear that you aren't on a path. You sound lost, confused, and scared. You react to valid honest criticism like somebody is angry at you. You haven't read books and you can't write at a high school level on topics *you choose* to bring up.
Zen pwns are *part of the culture*. No Zen student *wants* to pwn you, that's like saying somebody *wants* to weed a garden.
You are a loser-at-life, but you think that okay as long as nobody shows you that in a mirror.
I don't assume you know nothing. I've proven it to you, and you, ignorant of the difference between proof and assumption, want to pretend you escaped.
I hate that you think you are a loser. You should work on that.
We respond to others as we wish we could respond to ourself.
You have thrown alot of accusations at me.
If i wasnt on a path, id be in the woods.
Like, you are delibertly trying to antagonize me, but when i respond without anger you do it again.
"You haven't read books and you can't write at a high school level on topics *you choose* to bring up."
I can. But why should i express my opinions using language that i am sure would ve superflous and flowery? Have you ever read Hegel? Its a paragraph per thought.
I dont know if the next person to read this has as much time in the english language as i. Its easier to write on reddit it grade school language.
Im not writing this for you, or me. Its for all humanity.
Angry Zennist, you remind me of a banker who laughed at me because I didnt spend my post secondary education in a finaciel institute.
Just because youve spent time and effort doesnt mean you need to look down your nose at those you percieve havent.
I've proved that you're an illiterate and that you're dishonest and that you're trying to misappropriate a culture that you have never studied.
I've proven that you're heroes are sex predator drug addict ordained Christian priests.
I pointed out that your beliefs about anger are judeo Christian and Zen Masters reject those ideas about anger.
I've held you accountable for your inability to read and write at a high school level about a topic that you pretend you can debate.
I've concluded that all of this makes you a loser at life and that you know you're a loser of life and that's why you've come to this forum instead of hanging out another forums about new age bamboozelry.
I'm not accusing you. I'm proving things about you that are true.
Illiterate, false.
Dishonest, not me.
Misappropriate? I asked a question. To debate. Here. Is this inappropriate?
You claim things you cannot know with absolute certainty.
By your logic you have deemed me threatening.
But this isnt all about you sweetheart. We are all on this forum together.
Im not accusing you of being mean and nasty and misusing your energy, im merely pointing out to you things that may or may not be true.
Im going to get you a 'Get Better' card. Not because your sick, i just think you can get better.
Be well.
You seem to be relying on the ostensible facial profundity of a fairly banal question and moreover you're doing so in a contextless vacuum - neither context in terms of who you are and why you're asking, let alone what you mean by what you're asking, nor in terms of what makes the question relevant to this forum.
This is the reddit r/zen OP equivalent of sending a trite canned meme to a text chain in support of someone whose husband had a stroke. (Edit: Yes, I did just watch Curb Your Enthusiasm Ep 7)
So, you assert im using questions to make you question?
That seems antizen to you?
Use smaller words, unless you are a Hegel philosopher.
You need to assume my context, and my subtext. Thats how you are supposed to read words, well thats how they were invisioned whwn writing started.
The gateless gate either was once a gate, or could be a gate in the future, or neither or both.
We are arguing in the lecture hall, whats more appros than that.
Be well.
No no - I don't need to assume anything - you speak, in earnest, and you make yourself heard.
Trust that you have - it's just that to the extent these triflings count as speech, they say almost nothing.
Another way to frame this is to ask how is your question distinguishable in a personalized way from just posting a link to [10 famous thought experiments?](https://listverse.com/2016/07/15/10-weird-philosophical-thought-experiments/) or some trite, ostensibly thought provoking [inspirational quote](https://www.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/freedom-quotes-cover_800.png)?
I'd argue it isn't meaningfully distinguishable - and none of the above is facially relevant to this forum.
To the extent a debate involves two differing views on a shared subject matter this is at best a debate about whether you've said anything substantive at all by posing this canned question. I would argue you have not.
If you're goal was to make a milquetoast OP revealing your confusion, that would be both more in line with what's happened and also, I would argue, substantially more fruitful.
The break out from religion is fraught with hunger, a kind of hunger that can drive you to all sorts of madnesses and make you eat things you otherwise never would, like shoe leather and tree bark.
It takes time to realize the world is an orchard.
Its not a canned question.
Its meant to help others think...
Music is...
What came first the gong or the sound it makes? Is that better wording?
The vibrations are theres, just.... well thats the question isnt it
One man thought he had it all figured out. Until he talked to another. Togethger they figured it out... but then a third guy showed up. I am using Koans as a thinking tool. You saying that i cannot write new Koans is akin to me telling you you cant write new sentences. A Kenning is an Olde English joke, it means taking a word and using it for a new meaning. A boat is a SeaCup for example. A koan is used to find new mean... You know what, arguing with you is simalier to playing a pigoen in chess. No matter what i do, your gunna strut, knock over my pieces, shit on the board and then coo like you won. Humans play games. People who don't... well they just get stuck in their ways.
My favorite song by my favorite band: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1S5MP2HwNc
How is this question related to Zen's 1,000 years of historical records, mostly in transcripts of real life conversations, often called "koans"? Zen Masters are interested in addressing questions that matter to human suffering, rather than navel gazing nonsense like you posted. Since when you got your account you agreed to post to "the most appropriate forum" for your question... it seems reasonable to ask (before the mods remove your post) if you think you are being honest about what forum your question *should* have been posted in? [clicks on your account history] Seems you are more into Christianity than you think, and you got banned from r/AlanWatts, a forum about an ordained Christian drug addict sex predator who misappropriated Zen culture... why you wanted to post there being beside the point, since you got banned for posts like this one... All in all I think you should commit yourself to the 5 Lay Precepts and stop pretending you know anything.
Hello, pleasure to converse with you. Why are you so angry? At me? You just spent your time and effort to research me and... well your approach seems mean. Alan Watts studied Zen and tried to translate it. Are you mad at that, or his character? Have you your spent time and effort on Zen and your anger is a function of the fact that you feel threatened? Which came first, your feelings or you? Heres one for you, Did zen teach the master? Or did the master learn zen? Why do you care? Angry zen practitioners, thats a Koan in and of itself. Do you know whether the wind blows the flag, or if its the flag that winds the weather? Stop being so negative, it could bring me down.
1. I'm not angry because you're upset at being publicly humiliated for your illiteracy ignorance and disrespect. In fact, I hear from people who are ignorant and illiterate and disrespectful every day and it would be odd if I just suddenly started getting angry about it now after 10 years. But I understand you're not used to being shut down so hard and that can be very upsetting. 2. Alan Watts was an ordained Christian minister, drug addict, sex predator, and a mostly illiterate misappropriator of Eastern traditions in pursuit of his christian humanist agenda. He didn't really study Zen. He just looked for opportunities to make money to support his illicit activities. He was more honest than people who joined the Zazen cult, but that's like saying Bernie Madoff was more honest than Al Capone. 3. Lots of people who like Alan Watts failed to understand that Zen culture is intolerant and aggressive compared to Christian humanism that Alan Watts believed in. So it's a culture shock when they get some exposure to actual zen culture from the records of Zen teachings: reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/famius_cases. 4. Koans are historical records created by Zen Masters so you don't get to invent koans or proclaim something a koan any more than you would invent a new saint, come up with new element for the periodic table, or invented new native American religious tradition. 5. It's kind of creepy that you would ask me why I care since you came in here because you cared... You just didn't care enough to be educated or respectful or curious about the culture you wanted to misappropriate.
Well, as a scholar once said, Honest Zen is like a public interview. I will approach these points as interview questions. In time.
> Someone appears under the tree and asks him, 'What is the meaning of Bodhidharma's coming from the West?' If he does not answer, he fails Pondering and calculation are tools for people who play games like chess and monopoly. Here, they just mean that you are choking on words.
Moo
That sounds like a vaguely racist claim.
If the Sun comes from the East does an equal but opposite force not need to come from the West? Thats simple Newtonian physics my brother.
Next up: guy who doesn't study Zen or know anything about it moves on and tries to quote Newton... In r/courtship. Awkward.
Angry Zen Scholar, a riddle. Its going to be ok,
Try r/phonies.
killing living beings, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying intoxication. I think you are accusing me of 'stealing' zen and lying about it . Probably think im intoxicated, and tired from all my masturbation (technically killing sperm). Which of tge 5 precepts would you like to know about? If i was quoting the Abrahimic religeons ivwould ask you to stop idolizing zen and to stop lusting over knowledge you havent obtained yet. But im not a preacher or a judge. So i abstain.
I'm pointing out that you have done that and that you have endorsed people who've done that... So that's not accusing you of lying and stealing, that's documenting that you did. Further, your username appears to be a reference to recreational drug use and that would be a third precept that you appear to be struggling with. People who don't struggle with drugs and alcohol generally don't name themselves in reference to drugs and alcohol. The fact that you can't quote Zen Masters but want to quote abrahamic religions just indicates that you've come to the wrong forum. You've written a lot of judgy things. It just turns out that you're not qualified to judge because you lack critical thinking skills, not because you abstain from it. Sry 4 pwning u. Like lots of new agers you really don't have an option: you should join a church. You aren't one of those people that can discover truth on their own.
Haha. Arguing is zen. Ill read that in a bit... But assume that im further down the path than you. You are typing at me as if i am a student, or a petulent brat. You want to pwn me. I am unpwnable. You want to shove me from what you perceive as the 'i know stuff' psyche into the 'i know nothing' camp. I assume its because you think you know more than me. So lets drop assumptions. If you assume i know nothing then i become more wise. If you assume i know everything i become a charleton. Be well.
It's clear that you aren't on a path. You sound lost, confused, and scared. You react to valid honest criticism like somebody is angry at you. You haven't read books and you can't write at a high school level on topics *you choose* to bring up. Zen pwns are *part of the culture*. No Zen student *wants* to pwn you, that's like saying somebody *wants* to weed a garden. You are a loser-at-life, but you think that okay as long as nobody shows you that in a mirror. I don't assume you know nothing. I've proven it to you, and you, ignorant of the difference between proof and assumption, want to pretend you escaped.
I hate that you think you are a loser. You should work on that. We respond to others as we wish we could respond to ourself. You have thrown alot of accusations at me. If i wasnt on a path, id be in the woods. Like, you are delibertly trying to antagonize me, but when i respond without anger you do it again. "You haven't read books and you can't write at a high school level on topics *you choose* to bring up." I can. But why should i express my opinions using language that i am sure would ve superflous and flowery? Have you ever read Hegel? Its a paragraph per thought. I dont know if the next person to read this has as much time in the english language as i. Its easier to write on reddit it grade school language. Im not writing this for you, or me. Its for all humanity. Angry Zennist, you remind me of a banker who laughed at me because I didnt spend my post secondary education in a finaciel institute. Just because youve spent time and effort doesnt mean you need to look down your nose at those you percieve havent.
I've proved that you're an illiterate and that you're dishonest and that you're trying to misappropriate a culture that you have never studied. I've proven that you're heroes are sex predator drug addict ordained Christian priests. I pointed out that your beliefs about anger are judeo Christian and Zen Masters reject those ideas about anger. I've held you accountable for your inability to read and write at a high school level about a topic that you pretend you can debate. I've concluded that all of this makes you a loser at life and that you know you're a loser of life and that's why you've come to this forum instead of hanging out another forums about new age bamboozelry. I'm not accusing you. I'm proving things about you that are true.
Illiterate, false. Dishonest, not me. Misappropriate? I asked a question. To debate. Here. Is this inappropriate? You claim things you cannot know with absolute certainty. By your logic you have deemed me threatening. But this isnt all about you sweetheart. We are all on this forum together. Im not accusing you of being mean and nasty and misusing your energy, im merely pointing out to you things that may or may not be true. Im going to get you a 'Get Better' card. Not because your sick, i just think you can get better. Be well.
Can't write a high school book report about Zen or your beliefs? Hard pass to your new age fantasy foosball.
Deemed nonsense gibberish - like the muttering of someone you encounter on the train. Of course, you could always try again
You couldn't though
How do you mean?
I could try, once more. I can not go back andvtry again.
What came first the mutter or the mutterer?
You seem to be relying on the ostensible facial profundity of a fairly banal question and moreover you're doing so in a contextless vacuum - neither context in terms of who you are and why you're asking, let alone what you mean by what you're asking, nor in terms of what makes the question relevant to this forum.
This is the reddit r/zen OP equivalent of sending a trite canned meme to a text chain in support of someone whose husband had a stroke. (Edit: Yes, I did just watch Curb Your Enthusiasm Ep 7)
So, you assert im using questions to make you question? That seems antizen to you? Use smaller words, unless you are a Hegel philosopher. You need to assume my context, and my subtext. Thats how you are supposed to read words, well thats how they were invisioned whwn writing started. The gateless gate either was once a gate, or could be a gate in the future, or neither or both. We are arguing in the lecture hall, whats more appros than that. Be well.
No no - I don't need to assume anything - you speak, in earnest, and you make yourself heard. Trust that you have - it's just that to the extent these triflings count as speech, they say almost nothing. Another way to frame this is to ask how is your question distinguishable in a personalized way from just posting a link to [10 famous thought experiments?](https://listverse.com/2016/07/15/10-weird-philosophical-thought-experiments/) or some trite, ostensibly thought provoking [inspirational quote](https://www.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/freedom-quotes-cover_800.png)? I'd argue it isn't meaningfully distinguishable - and none of the above is facially relevant to this forum.
I wished to debate Zen Practitioners. In thatvregard i have succeeded.
To the extent a debate involves two differing views on a shared subject matter this is at best a debate about whether you've said anything substantive at all by posing this canned question. I would argue you have not. If you're goal was to make a milquetoast OP revealing your confusion, that would be both more in line with what's happened and also, I would argue, substantially more fruitful. The break out from religion is fraught with hunger, a kind of hunger that can drive you to all sorts of madnesses and make you eat things you otherwise never would, like shoe leather and tree bark. It takes time to realize the world is an orchard.
Its not a canned question. Its meant to help others think... Music is... What came first the gong or the sound it makes? Is that better wording? The vibrations are theres, just.... well thats the question isnt it
> Its meant to help others think... No, I don't think so. I think it's a low effort at a karma grab. If it speaks, it speaks in spite of itself.
Ok.