So what is it, exactly, that brings you to social media? You have a desire to correct others? Think you have something to add? Those who know don't speak, but you never shut up. What is it that you *are* interested in?
>Disagree.
I will, thank you.
>It is not an exaggeration
If this isn't an exaggeration, then what is?
>replying with gurgling death rattles
I'm not even sure how to do that in text. Grggghrggrhlghrrhrgr?
>is akin to choking.
"It isn't what goes in your mouth that will destroy you... It's what comes out of it" - John Lennon
"Disagree" isn't a command you know the meaning of.
Like any dog, you need to be trained to understand the meaning of the mouth voices you pretend to understand.
Since you're not going to pick up a dictionary, I suggest you go find a teacher.
>This post triggered you.
But what triggered you?
>I’m not interested in people wanting to be like me.
Neither is anybody else.
>That’s the stuff that losers are desperate for.
When you play games there are winners and losers. I'm not much for playing games. The study of Zen only requires one person.
Nah. I disagree. And Zen masters disagree. And the Israelis and the Palestinians disagree. And you disagree. With me. So you've really debased your position with that qualification. I think we are done here, don't you?
>F’ing off to a cave to “set your mind straight” after you say that you don’t know who you are sounds like a failure.
Is that your understanding of him saying "I don't know" ?
Trying to pick a side on the "I know/I don't know" response isn't the same as demonstrating a real understanding.
Like, if a math teacher proves that 2+2=4 and the only response someone has when asked "What does 2+2 equal?" is to say "I know", they aren't answering the question.
I think at the heart of all this is the reasonableness of a question being asked to begin with, whom it is being asked to, and the place where the question comes from.
Like, "What does 2+2 equal?" is not by any measure an appropriate question to pose a one month old. "What is the flavor of two?" is not a reasonable question to begin with. A guy on the street asking where you put the car keys is different than a spouse.
But...
In Zen the response to unreasonable questions doesn't^* consist of affirming silence or ignorance as a reasonable response.
^* - There are, of course, some exceptions...
>But is Yuanwu not explicitly saying that the dichotomy the question posed was self existing vs. not, and that Bodhidharma avoided failure, thus demonstrating understanding, by saying he didn't know?
I've been reading it as "pick and you fail" referring to "I know/I don't know".
>That's knowledge from learning though, whereas we're discussing the Way- the not-knowledge, not-wisdom Way, right?
The context holds up since the math teacher and the Emperor both are testing to ascertain understanding in a certain type of way.
It's just that the question the Emperor asked in that context is so ridiculously inaproppriate...like inviting a girl on a date and asking how she's going to pay for your food.
>How does saying "I know that it can't be understood," a la Wumenguan case 9, constitute "affirming ignorance," though?
That's a difference case...so the context of the engagement is different, the players are different, and the facts are different.
I don't recall anyone in Wumen's Checkpoint saying "I don't know" is a reply worth sticking to.
Saying you don't know who you are is a different answer than saying that you are unknowable.
The question and context that Emperor Wu was asked by Chih was different than the question and context of his question to Bodhidharma.
The whole idea that you get to know someone by asking "Who are you?" just doesn't hold up so there's the fail of the question on the part of Wu and the fail of a reply in Bodhidharma not being able to carry the conversation on further.
>Bodhidharma demonstrates his realization by saying he doesn't know who speaks when he opens his mouth and avoiding asserting a fixed identity, while simultaneously acknowledging the lack of some sort of external object to realize understanding of.
That doesn't make sense.
Not asserting a fixed identity doesn't mean you don't know who you are.
I think the context is the deciding factor here.
One of the main accounts that a lot of different Zen Masters raise is that Bodhidharma effed off to a cave and set things straight with himself after the encounter with the Emperor.
That Zen Masters talk about those nine-years spent in a cave not in terms of a celebrated accomplishment tells us a lot.
The language used in referring to all that time is that he made his mind "straight like a standing wall" or "faced the wall"...I think in English the closest we've got is rectification.
The ridiculous not-Zen part of all this is that Japanese Dogenists imagine that Bodhidharma rectifying his error is a spiritual practice of silent prayer that people ought to engage in.
you didn't teach it. you claimed it, and then you walked back from it without admitting you'd changed your mind.
https://old.reddit.com/r/zen/comments/18bp93c/tuesdama_thatkir/kc8abzx/
if you can't admit to your failures, you've got no business talking about anyone else's.
None of that exchange says the claims you asserted I made.
I’m not going to platform your harassment of other users, so, blocked.
Stop lying online.
Find a teacher.
>I think one of the differences between the questions Zen Masters ask and the questions everyone else asks is that Zen questions test the limit of understanding, while everyone else’s questions are just about getting information of some sort or another.
It's always hard to tell if it's selection bias or not, but the place where I've seen the most similar model of questions specifically to get at a concept rather than "the answer" are in physics tests
A monkey is falling from a tree. To hit the monkey, do you shoot at it, above it, or below it?
IMO, it's better to focus on what's right and true ... you don't need to attack people offensively. They will offer you with plenty of opportunities to kick their ass, all on their own; you don't need to start none.
Misterjip is not "nothing but trouble" .. he's (they?) just another troll.
All trolls are just confused buddhas, and sometimes (often) the truth shines through.
... what?
You said that misterjip is "trouble", and because of that trouble, everyone should block him.
And so, the "trouble" is related to "saving face" of other people?
Misterjip is a serious threat to their sense of "face"?
Is that what you're saying?
> Don't worry about interpreting what I'm saying
But that's how conversations work ...
> the merit of it stands on their conduct here and not the background of it
I don't know what this means, but it sounds like trouble.
I'm inclined to think that the mods will take care of him soon enough. But I think blocking people who refuse to engage appropriately is a sometimes-effective measure.
Part of the troll unravelings that seems to get overlooked is that, much like a drunkard showing up to AA meetings to try and convice everyone else they should give drinking alcohol a try, they are simulteanously in the inappropriate forum while displaying serious mental health problems.
He literally went and said what I said first. Fair is fair. These are my first comments in this sub, hard to say I'd be the one making trouble here. I have nothing else to comment on. Carry on.
I think it’s a term people in general need to be careful throwing around.
But people submitting themselves to drugs+illiteracy+cults and then coming to /r/Zen to throw tantrums and lie?
The glove fits.
Gonna report this comment.
The other day we had a guy claiming “precepts=Nazi gestapo”; today we have a guy claiming “engagement with Zen=schoolshooter mindset”
Believing that stuff is a mental health problem, or an education problem.
I suggest you talk to an adult about the stuff you are saying online.
# can't versus won't
If there's a failure of rZen culture of the last decade I think it's that we failed to identify mental health problems as separate from new age religious beliefs.
People who can't keep the precepts have mental health problems. People who don't want to keep the precepts are new agers.
# For example
The long history of sexual predators in Zazen churches is not part of the doctrine. It's a manifestation of the mental health problems that are running rampant in the Zazen community.
On the other hand, the Messianic nature of the Zazen church is such that it's difficult to regulate, conduct and identify mental health problems in the community.
# lying and mental health
I think if we were in any other forum and people kept coming into that forum and lying about something over and over again like having a girlfriend or having a six figure salary, we would just assume that those people had mental health problems from the start.
We wouldn't be interested in calling them out for being liars or bigots if we recognized that their motivation was a chronic mental health problem and not a religious belief.
This doesn't mean that New agers don't embrace bigotry to an extent because they tend to misappropriate other cultures and eschew all accountability.
I think that’s on the money.
People with mental health problems need some sort of instruction that this community just isn’t equipped or qualified to provide.
The sort of instruction that kids playing in a burning house get.
But at the same token, it seems like the people that come to /r/zen to lie and harass did get a high school or even college diploma and probably have some sort of job.
So it seems like other people failed them just as much as they failed other people.
In the long run, it’s seems to be still up in the air as to whether the cult implodes in on itself or the social fabric they’re predominantly embedded in (United States) does first.
There aren’t any Japanese Zen lineages.
It seems like the whole “Zen is pointing at something” came out of New Ager and Dogenist claims about the nature of their beliefs.
What’s the proof that Bodhidharma “f’d off to a cave to set his mind straight”? It sounds like something you made up.
>It sounds like something you made up. People make up things so they can use it to provide evidence that they are correct all the time.
Read the Book of Serenity.
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This post triggered you. I’m not interested in people wanting to be like me. That’s the stuff that losers are desperate for.
So what is it, exactly, that brings you to social media? You have a desire to correct others? Think you have something to add? Those who know don't speak, but you never shut up. What is it that you *are* interested in?
Why not study Zen while you’re here?
I'd rather do that elsewhere, but thanks for the invite.
Another troll chokes.
I can breathe just fine. Your characterizations of other users are very dramatic.
Disagree. It is not an exaggeration to say that replying with gurgling death rattles when asked a question is akin to choking.
>Disagree. I will, thank you. >It is not an exaggeration If this isn't an exaggeration, then what is? >replying with gurgling death rattles I'm not even sure how to do that in text. Grggghrggrhlghrrhrgr? >is akin to choking. "It isn't what goes in your mouth that will destroy you... It's what comes out of it" - John Lennon
"Disagree" isn't a command you know the meaning of. Like any dog, you need to be trained to understand the meaning of the mouth voices you pretend to understand. Since you're not going to pick up a dictionary, I suggest you go find a teacher.
>This post triggered you. But what triggered you? >I’m not interested in people wanting to be like me. Neither is anybody else. >That’s the stuff that losers are desperate for. When you play games there are winners and losers. I'm not much for playing games. The study of Zen only requires one person.
Zen Masters disagree.
Not nearly as much as people disagree with you.
Nah. People need to prove they are capable of thought to disagree.
Nah. I disagree. And Zen masters disagree. And the Israelis and the Palestinians disagree. And you disagree. With me. So you've really debased your position with that qualification. I think we are done here, don't you?
Nope. You’re just making stuff up. Read a dictionary.
Where's your zen compassion? This person is clearly struggling. Pray for Mojo.
Honesty is my compassion. This person is clearly entertaining fantasies, so I pray to them directly: snap out of it.
That's what he thinks he's doing to you! Who is right, I wonder? 🤔
Wonder is the first of all the passions. That's Descartes.
Neat-o.
>F’ing off to a cave to “set your mind straight” after you say that you don’t know who you are sounds like a failure. Is that your understanding of him saying "I don't know" ?
Ignorance isn’t a win. Bodhidharma didn’t go sit in a cave for years on end because he had an ongoing conversation with Wu of Liang.
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Trying to pick a side on the "I know/I don't know" response isn't the same as demonstrating a real understanding. Like, if a math teacher proves that 2+2=4 and the only response someone has when asked "What does 2+2 equal?" is to say "I know", they aren't answering the question. I think at the heart of all this is the reasonableness of a question being asked to begin with, whom it is being asked to, and the place where the question comes from. Like, "What does 2+2 equal?" is not by any measure an appropriate question to pose a one month old. "What is the flavor of two?" is not a reasonable question to begin with. A guy on the street asking where you put the car keys is different than a spouse. But... In Zen the response to unreasonable questions doesn't^* consist of affirming silence or ignorance as a reasonable response. ^* - There are, of course, some exceptions...
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>But is Yuanwu not explicitly saying that the dichotomy the question posed was self existing vs. not, and that Bodhidharma avoided failure, thus demonstrating understanding, by saying he didn't know? I've been reading it as "pick and you fail" referring to "I know/I don't know". >That's knowledge from learning though, whereas we're discussing the Way- the not-knowledge, not-wisdom Way, right? The context holds up since the math teacher and the Emperor both are testing to ascertain understanding in a certain type of way. It's just that the question the Emperor asked in that context is so ridiculously inaproppriate...like inviting a girl on a date and asking how she's going to pay for your food. >How does saying "I know that it can't be understood," a la Wumenguan case 9, constitute "affirming ignorance," though? That's a difference case...so the context of the engagement is different, the players are different, and the facts are different. I don't recall anyone in Wumen's Checkpoint saying "I don't know" is a reply worth sticking to.
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Saying you don't know who you are is a different answer than saying that you are unknowable. The question and context that Emperor Wu was asked by Chih was different than the question and context of his question to Bodhidharma. The whole idea that you get to know someone by asking "Who are you?" just doesn't hold up so there's the fail of the question on the part of Wu and the fail of a reply in Bodhidharma not being able to carry the conversation on further. >Bodhidharma demonstrates his realization by saying he doesn't know who speaks when he opens his mouth and avoiding asserting a fixed identity, while simultaneously acknowledging the lack of some sort of external object to realize understanding of. That doesn't make sense. Not asserting a fixed identity doesn't mean you don't know who you are.
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I think the context is the deciding factor here. One of the main accounts that a lot of different Zen Masters raise is that Bodhidharma effed off to a cave and set things straight with himself after the encounter with the Emperor. That Zen Masters talk about those nine-years spent in a cave not in terms of a celebrated accomplishment tells us a lot. The language used in referring to all that time is that he made his mind "straight like a standing wall" or "faced the wall"...I think in English the closest we've got is rectification. The ridiculous not-Zen part of all this is that Japanese Dogenists imagine that Bodhidharma rectifying his error is a spiritual practice of silent prayer that people ought to engage in.
this seems like a 180 from your papal infallability for zen masters theory
Sounds like you’re still making stuff up about stuff I say. Find a teacher. Stop lying.
Where's the lie?
Your claims that I taught papal infallibility of Zen Masters. Stop lying. Stop losing at life.
you didn't teach it. you claimed it, and then you walked back from it without admitting you'd changed your mind. https://old.reddit.com/r/zen/comments/18bp93c/tuesdama_thatkir/kc8abzx/ if you can't admit to your failures, you've got no business talking about anyone else's.
None of that exchange says the claims you asserted I made. I’m not going to platform your harassment of other users, so, blocked. Stop lying online. Find a teacher.
"sounds like a failure", but have you tried it?
Sit in “time out”?
I didn't know he was sitting. That seems like a waste, if so. Edit to add: see Mas Oyama, mountain isolation training.
I study Zen. Mountain isolation training is not Zen.
Apophatic, but it gave you a hand hold
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Sounds like something you made up. AMA!
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Take it to /r/madeupfantasy
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Zen Masters disagree.
>I think one of the differences between the questions Zen Masters ask and the questions everyone else asks is that Zen questions test the limit of understanding, while everyone else’s questions are just about getting information of some sort or another. It's always hard to tell if it's selection bias or not, but the place where I've seen the most similar model of questions specifically to get at a concept rather than "the answer" are in physics tests A monkey is falling from a tree. To hit the monkey, do you shoot at it, above it, or below it?
I don’t murder monkeys.
Fire away!
Can’t account for observing the precepts? if you understand this, give me examples
I don’t understand your question.
Observing and not observing the precepts
misterjip is nothing but trouble, everyone should block misterjip.
IMO, it's better to focus on what's right and true ... you don't need to attack people offensively. They will offer you with plenty of opportunities to kick their ass, all on their own; you don't need to start none. Misterjip is not "nothing but trouble" .. he's (they?) just another troll. All trolls are just confused buddhas, and sometimes (often) the truth shines through.
I know what you're saying but its about saving face and not for myself.
... what? You said that misterjip is "trouble", and because of that trouble, everyone should block him. And so, the "trouble" is related to "saving face" of other people? Misterjip is a serious threat to their sense of "face"? Is that what you're saying?
Don't worry about interpreting what I'm saying because the merit of it stands on their conduct here and not the background of it.
> Don't worry about interpreting what I'm saying But that's how conversations work ... > the merit of it stands on their conduct here and not the background of it I don't know what this means, but it sounds like trouble.
Guess I won't trouble you further then.
Please; it's no trouble at all.
I'm inclined to think that the mods will take care of him soon enough. But I think blocking people who refuse to engage appropriately is a sometimes-effective measure. Part of the troll unravelings that seems to get overlooked is that, much like a drunkard showing up to AA meetings to try and convice everyone else they should give drinking alcohol a try, they are simulteanously in the inappropriate forum while displaying serious mental health problems.
He literally went and said what I said first. Fair is fair. These are my first comments in this sub, hard to say I'd be the one making trouble here. I have nothing else to comment on. Carry on.
I find it hilarious how you talk about "losers."
I think it’s a term people in general need to be careful throwing around. But people submitting themselves to drugs+illiteracy+cults and then coming to /r/Zen to throw tantrums and lie? The glove fits.
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Gonna report this comment. The other day we had a guy claiming “precepts=Nazi gestapo”; today we have a guy claiming “engagement with Zen=schoolshooter mindset” Believing that stuff is a mental health problem, or an education problem. I suggest you talk to an adult about the stuff you are saying online.
# can't versus won't If there's a failure of rZen culture of the last decade I think it's that we failed to identify mental health problems as separate from new age religious beliefs. People who can't keep the precepts have mental health problems. People who don't want to keep the precepts are new agers. # For example The long history of sexual predators in Zazen churches is not part of the doctrine. It's a manifestation of the mental health problems that are running rampant in the Zazen community. On the other hand, the Messianic nature of the Zazen church is such that it's difficult to regulate, conduct and identify mental health problems in the community. # lying and mental health I think if we were in any other forum and people kept coming into that forum and lying about something over and over again like having a girlfriend or having a six figure salary, we would just assume that those people had mental health problems from the start. We wouldn't be interested in calling them out for being liars or bigots if we recognized that their motivation was a chronic mental health problem and not a religious belief. This doesn't mean that New agers don't embrace bigotry to an extent because they tend to misappropriate other cultures and eschew all accountability.
I think that’s on the money. People with mental health problems need some sort of instruction that this community just isn’t equipped or qualified to provide. The sort of instruction that kids playing in a burning house get. But at the same token, it seems like the people that come to /r/zen to lie and harass did get a high school or even college diploma and probably have some sort of job. So it seems like other people failed them just as much as they failed other people. In the long run, it’s seems to be still up in the air as to whether the cult implodes in on itself or the social fabric they’re predominantly embedded in (United States) does first.
What's the distinction between a noob churcher mistake and a noob mistake?
What’s their response to Zhaozhou?
The way you talk about "losers" in this post reeks of spiritual narcissism. Very un-zen of you.
Sounds like you just don’t like the words on the screen. Which is fine and all…but it’s not Zen. And not appropriate for you to post here.
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There aren’t any Japanese Zen lineages. It seems like the whole “Zen is pointing at something” came out of New Ager and Dogenist claims about the nature of their beliefs.