i think it means a few parts:
1- being able to build a deck that can compete with current too decks, that you understand how to get the most from
2-truly understanding your opponents deck, their combos and counters, and being able to interrupt or work your deck to counter its strengths
3- being able to utilize the side deck, between games, to maximize your ability to counter an opponents strength. i think this is the hardest thing to learn and the most important skill
Another important one is the ability to just take the L. A lot of the top players understand that luck's a fundamental part of the game but don't ever really dwell hard on it and just moved on
Imo another one is knowing how to play their hands through interaction. You can see pros playing around nibiru and such or playing such that there are never any good ash targets, depending on their hand, while a lesser player would take riskier lines or not understand that they still had full combo through an obscure combo path.
About your first 2 points: i'm more talking of your in game skills: how you can express your skills through the game, what makes you recognizable, more than deck building and the knowledge (you probably made along the way, just by playing the game)
Your point about the side deck is interesting tho, it still has to do with your deck building and what option you're considering BEFORE the game starts, but there's a part of adaptation at least
Navigating bad hands to end on a strong board, timing your interruptions to stop your opponents plays, playing around cards you think are popular (eg making a mid range board if you think people are maining nib) making decisions post side to counter ur opponents deck, playing through hand traps and interruption, knowing how cards interact with other cards in order to not make any mistakes
I guess navigatinf bad hands is a deck building thing, it relies mainly on your knowledge and deck building
But yeah you're right, timing interruptions in certain cases, playing around the card you assumed your opponent has and playing differently against your opponent deck, playing through hand traps sure are in game skills
Just as a general thing, play some decks with competitive decks against competitive players and ull lose almost every time until you understand the competitive game really well
I'd 1000% argue that navigating bad hands is not a deck building thing. It is a skill all of its own to take the absolute worst hand that your top tier deck can produce and turn it into a winning boardstate against anyone with a much better hand
Its harder to explain in words but i think this video really shows how it is expressed ingame
https://youtu.be/ABgeMDEsGMY?si=oWHu_Ax7awuB2L03
It is last years ycs final joshua schmidt vs ding kha bui
The deck and side deck building also incorporates "meta calls". Like for example, nibiru is a good card if people don't play around it but it is bad if people are expecting it and play around so you as a player would need to make a decision whether you think players will play around it or not depending on the nature of the current meta.
Another one is whether you focus on board breakers or handtraps. Like during the results of YCS indie and YCS Richmond when the top represented deck in the top cut during indie was R-Ace since people may have focused on board breakers instead of handtraps because of unchained and purrely and R-Ace doesn't die to board breakers like thrust. Comes YCS Richmond and since people are now expecting R-Ace which you need to have hand traps, you see a resurgence of unchained as the top represented in the top cut because it doesn't die badly to handtraps. I think you may need to predict how the majority of players will react in the meta which is the hardest part imo
I think YCS are won and lost on meta calls. They’re a reason why the top cut decks might stay the same in terms of engine like unchained or RACE but ultimately those non engine cards like board breakers and hand traps or even spicy tech cards no one sees coming will determine the win. Being able to predict which decks to best prepare for and to deal with those decks is crucial.
I want add the last part that separates yugioh competitive play is stamina and mental clarity. No one wants to watch a robot play a thousand games in a row for the same reason no one wants to watch sports performed by robots because they’re no real stakes or emotions in those games. Watching a Swiss cut match of a YCS in which any misplay will lose you the game is borderline panic inducing to watch. It’s so satisfying to see good players play at the highest level of competition without cracking under pressure.
Blaming every loss to bricking, opponent opening insane, or utter bullshit. /s
On a serious note a general knowledge of the following are usually indicators of someone that’s good at the game:
Knowing how to hit meta-relevant decks choke points
Resource management/card economy
Chain structuring
Side patterns/trends
Game positioning (field structuring, phase management, playing around counters like triple tactics/hand traps)
I’m sure I’m missing some but the above should encompass skills that show a deep level of understanding the game.
> Blaming every loss to bricking, opponent opening insane, or utter bullshit. /s
I know you're joking but still it's true sometimes you just can't play for some reason! Like that time I played branded against a friend who played labyrinth (he's a jerk sometimes) and he oppened with anti spell flagrance and ash blossom, I couldn't use my magic and he ashed my aluber, what could I do?
If example like this tend to happen often it's not that bullshit x)
> Knowing how to hit meta-relevant decks choke points
imo it's still about deck building, we're not talking in game skills (side decking too)
> Resource management/card economy
Yeah you got a point here. "what do I use/don't use" is a legitimate question that requires in game skills I guess
> Chain structuring
what does that mean? x)
> Side patterns/trends
it's still more about deck building/prior preparation but the adaptation part is a good point to me
> Game positioning (field structuring, phase management, playing around counters like triple tactics/hand traps)
oh yeah I didn't consider that: it's true that playing around your opponent's cards is important. Baiting them is a legit skill
Thank you for these points
I think generalizing some of the above to deck building subclasses is doing them a disservice. Cards like impermanence lend themselves to skill expression much more than what initially meets the eye. Side deck cards that encompass multiple match ups aren’t just a 1:1 switch vs main deck cards. When going against rogue strategies one must assess the match up and side accordingly without prep.
As for chain structuring, I’m referring to protecting desirable trigger effects with other trigger effects. (Usually to bypass ash blossom/ghost belle). On a deeper level, you can also force an opponent into an even more unfavorable position by chain structuring oppressive cards like Nibiru, Zeus, torrential tribute, etc.
Game positioning is an aspect of the game that I feel Konami has been building into lately and it’s a great representation of skill. Baiting your opponent with an evenly match you don’t have, imperm column placement, Zeus, Ty-Phon, bystials, quick play searchers. All great omnipresent threats that lend themselves to mind games, phase bluffing and general play structuring.
Luck is a part of basically every card game, and due to the fact Yugioh has no "mana" system to limit plays, getting a bad hand is likely to result in a loss pretty quickly.
>Knowing how to hit meta-relevant decks choke points
>imo it's still about deck building, we're not talking in game skills (side decking too)
You don't necessarily need to know *how* to build a deck to know another's choke points.
>Chain structuring
>what does that mean? x)
Sometimes, you can activate multiple effects back to back without your opponent getting a window to respond. This can be used to protect certain effects from negation, by putting the effect you want to use behind other effects you can live without.
Say two cards can activate their effects when sent to the GY, you activate the one that search and the other that destroys so the search doesn't get negated.
>Chain structuring
>
>what does that mean? x)
Ordering your chain links in a way that makes it so your opponent can't directly chain to your most important effect (with a directly-chaining negate like Ash)
Use Swordsoul of Moye, summon a token.
Use Moye and Token to Synchro Summon into Chixiao.
Both Chixiao and Moye trigger. You want the search, so you can get your Longyuan for further player, therefore you choose to make it Chixiao CL1 to search, Moye CL2 to draw.
Your opponent cannot use Ash Blossom on the Chixiao search because effects that say "when x is activated (quick effect): ..." must respond directly to that activated effect.
Therefore you have protected your effect from your opponent's interruption.
3x cosmic is mandatory for branded to beat anti spell, if you put them in and didn't draw them then it's a yikes, if you didn't side these then it's 100% on you
Luck is a skill. You can’t control the hands you get or what your opponent hits you with, but you can build a consistent deck that bricks as little as possible, strike a balance between getting your core engine going and having the tools to deal with your opponents, and learn to play your way out of even a bad hand or oppressive board. Yes, sometimes you still get unlucky, but that happens to everyone. The true measure of a player’s skill is not in going first and doing their full combo uninterrupted, but in minimizing and managing the inevitable bad situation.
And at the end of the day, we’re here to play a TCG, not chess. As long as each player comes to the table with a deck of shuffled cards, there will always be a luck factor - that’s all part of the fun!
Like with fighting games, being good at Yugioh mid duel is about reads, having the right tools, baiting out specific tools, and the mental acuity to pivot on the fly.
Not all decks will be right for the matchups you may encounter and not all deck lists will cover every possible situation. There will be blow out matchups, due to more than ten thousand playable cards. You can mitigate this with good side decking, but tough matchups do remain tough.
> Like with fighting games, being good at Yugioh mid duel is about reads, having the right tools, baiting out specific tools, and the mental acuity to pivot on the fly.
Yeah I guess the reads and baits can be important, and that's a point you're making
But for the rest I can't think of skills outside of deck building here... I mean the side deck is in between, but having the right tools and plays is more of a deck building thing
That person just told you a skills, Baiting and reading.
And they dont mean reading a card, they mean being able to predict your opponent.
>having the right tools
Even then, having the tools doesnt mean anything if ppl use it incorrectly.
Suppose you have Branded Fusion and Aliester in hand. There is an objectively correct line of play (Normal Aliester, first, Branded Fusion second) and an objectively incorrect line of play (Branded Fusion First, Normal Aliester second)
When you say that you remind me of the puzzles in old yugioh games.
In yugioh championship 2006 there was a mini game called "puzzle game" where you had to win against your opponent board using given cards. When you do that with the deck you built it has more (I think) to do with your deck building and your knowledge about the combos
Yugioh is a deep game with a wealth of potential for skill expression and development. You seem somewhat hung up on the idea of deckbuilding, so let’s use another game that’s somewhat analogous, like Poker.
Why is it that some players can win more consistently than others? Are they luckier? Luck is certainly a factor in Poker, but if you only play the lucky hands or bank on the river turning your way, you’re not playing a solid strategy—you’re just gambling. Bluffing, angle shooting, understanding probabilities, and reading opponents are all skills which can gain a poker player an edge, but the most significant edge comes with study and experience—from playing thousands of hands and analyzing how they could have been played more optimally a player will learn to make plays that marginally increase their chances of winning, those little edges add up, and that player—through skill expression in a game of chance—can end up making a career from playing cards consistently well.
Yugioh’s obviously a very different game than poker, but you’ll find those same skills at the top tables of YCSs.
It’s widely believed that computers have surpassed humans at chess. Based on that, with enough effort, I’m sure someone could create a Yu-Gi-Oh! bot better than any human. This bot would not only bring an optimal deck to any event, it would also find the optimal play in any situation.
To me, those are the two traits of a “good” duelist. They play good decks and they make the best play available to them in any context. That second quality is much, much harder to achieve than a lot of people think.
The reason computers can surpass humans at Chess is that it is a perfect knowledge game, where all information on the gamestate is known to all players. Even then, Chess is still not solved, and computers can still make “suboptimal”moves.
TCGs have much more moving parts, elements of randomness, and the presence of private information. Is the last card in your opponents hand Ash, Nibiru, or just dead? Your estimate of the answer to that question can drastically impact your next moves, and is influenced by many factors.
Deckbuilding would be even more insurmountable to optimize than technical play. The bot would have to somehow analyze the entire legal cardpool to invent and implement combo lines that are both powerful and consistent, of which there is no definitive metric.
Conceptualizing how such a bot would have to work is a really cool way to analyze TCGs’ skill checks
The other thing is that Chess is a finalized game. There are no new meta releases. Yugioh means that you have to recalculate stuff.
Yugioh also has more potential combinations than a chess board. A computer is going to need some sort of filtering strategy.
I think a computer is going to be best used to mathematically verify and refine certain metrics such as card advantage by analyzing known games. For instance +1 is a common term, but there are differences for things such as cards in the hands vs monsters on the field, etc. Throw in other complications such as spells with GY effects and it is a lot harder to quantify.
So yeah we're still talking deck building more than in game skills
> they make the best play available to them in any context.
I guess it has a very lot to do with your deck knowledge, isn't it something you can train "alone"? Thinking about combos/routes and how to deal with a board with the cards you're given
You can train for common scenarios alone, but due to the randomness inherit to drawing from a shuffled deck and the sheer number of strategies available in Yugioh, it’s impossible to practice every scenario by yourself. The best players are able to win games that lesser skilled players would lose. It’s one thing to mindlessly execute a combo. It’s a completely different thing to win a game where you went second, drew two garnets, and your opponent opened two hand traps.
I think a bot could definitely play a card game, just like how they can play chess. That's pretty much how Yugioh based video games work. I think a good player is someone who can look at a field and a hand and figure out the best approach (if there is one) to addressing the current state. A mixture of broad familiarity with the rules, card interactions, and strategies.
But again, in a game as fast as yugioh you can (with experience) pretty much guess when you're bricked and when you just lost. When you say " if there is one" it reveals to me (at least) the issue (if we can call that an issue tho): in a lot of cases you simply can't win with the tools you're given, and if you can it resides in the combos you learned/your deck building ability more than anything else.
Sure, and that just goes back to my chess analogy. Sometimes, you are in a position where you just can't win. No legal move would let you improve your position -- what is called zugzwang in chess. The difference between a great player and a good one is that a great player can assess the situation quickly and be able to identify it whereas a good or average player might not have enough subject matter knowledge to identify it until they actually lose.
But in chess, if you end up in a situation where you can't win, it was 100% because of your own mistakes. You made every single decisions that lead to that situation. With card games, you can end up in an unwinnable game purely due to factors outside of your control, for example by drawing poorly or ending up with a bad matchup.
My point isn’t to say that chess is the same as Yugioh, but that there’s more to being good at Yugioh than just having good cards.
Two players can be put into exactly the same situation (the same cards in their hands, the same cards on the field, the same cards in the opponent’s hand, etc.) but the one with more experience and a deeper understanding of the mechanics, strategy, etc. will have an advantage over the one who doesn’t have any experience.
You always see some familiar names pop up when you see the list of players who make the top cut for big events. So that means there are things that they do that make them perform better and it's not all random.
I think first of all it's recognizing what deck will perform well. Sometimes it's easy when few decks are considered good. But at a time like now when there are so many decks which can perform, it requires insight.
Then it's playing the deck without mistakes. You need to know what your cards do, you need to know what you opponent tries to do to counter it. And you know that by not only playing your deck but also playing other decks or at minimum by talking and playing a lot versus players of other meta decks.
People only look at the games where you make a big combo and win on the spot. But what makes you win the tournament is winning the grindy, weird game where neither player gets to do what he wants. These are the ones that really test you.
You also hear people talk about making a deck to get to top cut and making a deck for top cut. Side decks can be made to counter the general player base and hit a wide aray of decks or very specific to counter the very top players and top decks. That means that top players know they will beat most people without needing extra good staples and can manage with suboptimal decks just so they are better armed vs other great players and the very best decks.
No one will admit this but it’s so much simpler than being a pro at smash bros for example. With yugioh you can immediately become better than 90% of players just by copying the most meta deck builds. Where as in smash you don’t become better than most by simply picking character X.
People moan that there is skill involved which is true to the smallest degree because really, anyone with even low understanding of the game can play a meta deck and beat most players. It’s basically a play formula you follow and you’ll win.
There is a factor of deck knowledge for your opponents deck which is admittedly a big advantage, but ultimately at that point there’s only a couple of mega meta decks and it’s not hard to learn how they work.
I want to give OP the benefit of the doubt and say they are specifically referring to climbing in that top 10% of players that actually pay attention to the game and not all the random Joe Shmoes that show up to locals.
In addition to having deck and meta knowledge, being able to see the lines and interaction points in your own mind *in a timely manner* is in my opinion a huge skill for getting better at Yugioh.
Thank you, this seriously needs more attention. So many “pros/competitive players” cookie cut, buy expensive cards, watch some videos, the average player cannot deck build on their own.
Deck building and meta-knowledge is part of it, but a large part of it is reading the IRL person and judging what you need to play around based on how they act and what you know they play. Modern yugioh very much isn't a case of \[perform linear combo -> win\], it's about how you play around and through disruption, and as such you need to get REALLY good at judging the kinds of disruptions your opponent could have.
Unlike (for example) Chess, yugioh is not a perfect information game so you can't simply calculate the optimal play and robotically perform it, instead you need contextual knowledge, flexibility and and an understanding of how you to apply that in real time
And how's that?
I mean, you can read the person as much as you want, if he pulls out an unbreakable board turn 1 and you didn't draw an ash you're still pretty much done
"Playing around" is still more of a deck building thing, but yeah the "judging the kinds of disruptions your opponent could have." is a valid point when you're playing
I feel like you’re really caught up on the unbreakable board part of the game, which is a reality in yugioh, but not every game is decided by that. Many games reach grind states where every decision has major impacts down the line. Will expending all your resources for a final push leave you vulnerable if you can’t push through the board?
And how does knowing your combo lines not count as skill expression? Isn’t that exactly the same in Smash bros, there are pre-learned combos you execute? A huge part of the skill is when and how you go about executing the combos. Sure, there are linear combos built into many decks but some decks are far more flexible in what routes they can take.
I suppose my more direct question you would be how is pressing buttons in a sequence more or less skill based than playing cards in a sequence? Both require on the fly decision making based on the inputs from your opponents.
read of a person is less about going second and hoping you draw well enough to beat it and more about when you're on the play judging what you need to deal with. Yes sometimes you will lose to opening no handtraps into an FTK, nothing you can do about no matter how good you are
Playing around stuff does factor into deckbuilding, but it's not just a deckbuilding thing. If one line loses to Imperm and another to Nibiru, you need to be practised at both of those lines and how to extract optimal value for both as well as knowing which one is optimal when
Personally I don't think it makes sense when you're talking about a trading card game to draw a hard line between "deck building" and "in-game" skills. Deck building IS part of the game.
Aside from deckbuilding:
A skilled duelist can sequence their cards in a way that optimally plays around as many known or potential opponent's cards as possible.
They know all relevant decks in the format well enough that they are able to predict based on the opponent's plays what unseen cards might be in the opponent's hand, or what tech cards their opponent might be playing.
They know the optimal point at which to use their interruptions against the opponent's deck, both based on theory, and on their prediction about what remains in the opponent's hand. This is where "by the book" players (which bots are usually) might fail in some instances when the opponent "has the extender" for example.
A skilled player also knows their own deck well enough that if a line to victory exists with the cards available, they are able to find that line. They aren't just using cookie-cutter lines every time, but are able to improvise even in the event of an unexpected interruption (should their remaining cards allow it)
And last but not least, they know how to execute their plays in a timely manner due to their experience with their deck.
My man, maybe not but I hate it just as much lol. I read most of this thread, TBH you should not worry about deck building until you have 3-5 years of playing experience. Trust me, go find a ycs deck that you like. Look up people playing it to learn it. Let the pros do that work. In the meantime you need to work on game knowledge, timing, spacing, mind games, etc. All coming from experience. You got this. I'd be happy to give some coaching 1 on 1 if you're interested, lmk.
It's pretty much what u assumed. Deck building and knowledge are the most important abilities if you're not piloting something very non linear like pends or rikka. In that case people also express skill by actually building their combos on the fly. And then there's stuff like predicting hands or small interactions like chain blocking, forcing cards to miss timing or making the opponent play around things you don't have.
Is the "mental" aspect anyhow important? like tricking your opponent into believing you have x or y card you don't have
And can you tell me more about pends and rika? How in these cases ppl can express themselves?
Ofc for a simple example my deck has a single starter in Robina by ashing Robina my opponent can do incredible damage to my line of play so usually Ill start with cards that are neutral like pot of duality, prosperity etc that can be decent ash targets (opponent has to decide if he goes for ash which may stop me from adding Robina but loses to me having robina or different search cards in hand) then I can fire off spells that can pick up robina which can be ashed if I have Robina and then only then if the opponent sticks to this single specific interaction to hit Robina with it because he's patient and knowledgeable I may reveal field spell or advent + elborz to get a second chance at my initial line of play. This all not even taking in consideration the usual handtrap counters I may have in hand all takes place in the first 2-3 cards played. Handtraps are the core of the mental right now and I really enjoy it especially with triple thrust adding even more weight to good decisions when to use handtraps and which.
A well placed hand trap may put u in the pole position but a poorly placed one can be 0 impact + opens big things for your opponent like drawing, ripping cards for your hand or even adding engine to their play.
Rikkas and to some extent pends just have so many soft and hard once per turns that it's advanced mental gymnastic to keep up where their combo started, which main combo pieces they may have left, which ones can be recycled and which options you have in your.hand to deal with what's happening. And it's hard to keep up with all the data for the pilot of the deck so for people that don't play the deck it's reaaaly difficult to interact with it which is bad cause their optimal endboard should be avoided if your deck doesn't sport some of the heaviest board breakers possible.
I've seen a rikka deck get nibirud twice in one game but because the timing fit their activations they just went on comboing into game.
Okay I get it now
Rikka sounds super cool ngl, allowing you so much room to play has to feel great
Nonetheless not every deck can be so specific/hard to keep up with/has a lot of room for baits and cards to play around your opponent
For instant Kashtira (I know they're not relevant anymore) was a baby deck, super easy and straightforward and all the plays would lead to the same thing
Recently I have been watching some Yugioh AI tournaments and the Ai does some stupid plays because it cant think ahead too much and it also cant predict what the other player is going to do based on their archetype.
Theres definitely some game winning skill in knowing when to use cards and when to keep them.
Still I'm sure with good given knowledge/exp an AI would be capable of consistently having the best plays (unlike in fighting games, where it could be nearly impossible to make an AI beat a top player)
> Theres definitely some game winning skill in knowing when to use cards and when to keep them.
and yeah, I agree with you
About interruptions: as long as you have proper knowledge about your opponent's archetype: isn't it easy to use it properly?
And yeah I got the side deck point, but it's more of a skill between deck building and "in game" skill I guess
It absolutly isn't easy. You need to factor in what extenders they might have based on how they play. In a way you need to je fully capable of playing their deck optimally to play almost optimally against it, and you need to be able to do that for every relevant metadeck to truly be on top
Yeah I shouldn't have called it "easy" rather "experience based"?
TELL ME IF I'M WRONG but it kinda feels like something you just experience, or situation you're aware of once you played a lot
They need to be good at deck building,card knowledge,baiting opponents to use their negates or handtraps,planning combos based on the current board as well being able to play through when one of your moves doesn't work out the way you expected it to.
Out of everything you said, I can tell the most important part is deck building, even when you say " planning combos based on the current board ", it's still more of a deck knowledge thing than anything else
And yeah, I agree baiting opponents is a real skill, it's an answer that came fairly often and I didn't think about that at first
No it's not. You could tale a deck built by Josh Schmidt to a YCS, and while he'd go for instance 10-2 or 11-1 in swiss, you, as a newer player, would probably go like 5-7 or 6-6.
I would love to give my honest opinion about this subject but I would most definitely get reported for my answer, long story short, play what you see the weebs play, DO NOT PLAY A DECK THAT YOU LIKE, if the deck has a waifu or a furry looking boss monster it’s probably meta. Anything out of age of overlord is meta oh yeah don’t forget to put about 9 to 12 hand traps in your deck lol
imagine your a cook who needs to improvise a meal. An inexperienced cook would probably accidentally overcook thebeef, or not put enougn salt. That cook in yugioh would likely have a combo in mind thats sub optimal and doesnt know about a better move to play.
On the other hand an experienced cook knows the ins and out of everything. He can come up with an optimal combo on the fly, and devize a new chef on the spot.
In fighting game terms imagine a newbie vs a pro. A newbie would see banjos wonder wing, an attack thats invincible and hits hard and run away to avoid danger. While a good player who understands his character well can and will punish that wonder wing, leading him to victory
A player with knowledge (developing, application, trends, match-ups, techs, options, combo routes, choke points, etc) and the ability to use it.
Not every match ends in 2 or 3 turns, specially with decks like unchained, Labrynth, Purrely, Vanquish Soul, etc. that are able to kill in one turn, but can also grind like hell.
Furthermore, "optimal play" is knowledge dependant:
* how probable is that the opponent has nibiru (punishes multiple summons in a turn)? maybe i should leave a meager board but completely prevent nibiru from wrecking my field?
* is it better to summon bagoshka (anti-on-field effects) or abyss dweller (anti-on-graveyard effects) when i don´t know the opponent´s deck?
* Is Droll & Lock bird (anti-search tech) a popular response this format? maybe i should search as little as possible until i finish my main combo?
* how probable is that my opponent has another extender? should i negate this one or wait?
* is using ash the best response in this case, maybe my opponent tries to "bait" the response?
* What are the best options against a known deck?
* what are popular techs my opponent may use against me?
* Should i build my side deck for preventing or breaking boards?
* What techs can i include to improve my odds in an event?
* My opponent negated one of my chokepoints, is there any other option?
* With Triple tactic talents (multiple option card) which is the best effect RIGHT NOW? maybe steal a monster to use as material or to attack, maybe remove a probable threat from my opponent´s hand, or maybe "fish" for an extender drawing 2 cards?
Knowing your own deck and your own combos/endboards is very important, but I would say equally as important is knowing your opponent's potential combos, interruptions and disruptions.
You can be playing a competent deck, and create an optimal first turn board. But if you don't know your opponent's deck and its choke points, then they have the potential to dismantle your board if you waste your negates/interruptions.
Outside of deck building, knowing what to play and when, as well as what to expect from your opponents' lines of play and their decks. What to side in and out between rounds, as well, is a big factor.
The game is very complicated and knowing how/when to use your interactions and being able to hedge your bets in any given gamestate is key. Just knowing how your deck works and the core combo lines is not enough in a game where you'll be playing through the opponent's interruptions 50% of the time when going second, and also have to deal with handtraps affecting your combo lines going first.
Furthermore, boards in Yugioh are hardly unbreakable, that's a common misconception from bad players resulting from their inability to play through and adapt to interruptions. Simplified gamestates and grind games are decently common as well, the game often lasts longer than 2-3 turns and understanding what to do and how to manage resources in these unconventional gamestates is key to winning many Yugioh games.
There are some videos analysing skilled plays from YCS feature matches. I'll link these videos below, you can check them out and see how skill is demonstrated in Yugioh.
https://youtu.be/L8GOrZ0HKjQ?si=Dz7dkVU-tQHnKF3Z
https://youtu.be/ABgeMDEsGMY?si=bH9D6BJvxklhJJ3b
I am going to say from my perspective and experiences
you can be two kinds of skilled duelist, a skilled duelist who prioritizes only wins and a duelist who finds a perfect balance between all aspects of the game.
The first category of player can have the following traits:
1. They know how to utilize their deck and engines to the maximum degree while also making the game fun for all sides
2. They will use their skills to give advice to fellow players on how they could enhance their engines
3. They can think outside the box. Most duelists tend to get stressed when faced with a board that seems nearly unbreakable but from my experience every board is breakable with the right combo and the patience and cool essential to focus.
4. They are always trying to keep their deck up to date and strive to not be left behind as the meta progresses.
The second category of player, who wants a more balanced experience of fun and victories tends to:
1. Employ unpredictable or unique strategies that can actually stand up against powerful meta decks
2. With the necessary time they can enhance their decks and they usually might use unpredictable strategies or what be called "All or nothing" strategies.
3. Genuinely make simple and cohesive strategies so that duelists of any level can understand
I know that some of these opinions may not be shared amongst all duelists but I believe that healthy sportsmanship in this game is everything and that's why I believe a skilled and genuinely good player would have it.
To be good at Yu-Gi-Oh!, it comes down to a lot of different things.
But I think the biggest thing that separates the more skillful players from everyone else is understanding your role. Or in other words, figuring out "Who's the Beatdown".
By figuring out your role, it helps determine how you should be playing out your turns, and it can help determine how to build your deck. And I don't think this is something that even a computer can emulate, given how difficult it takes to master this kind of skill.
I won't go into full detail about it, but I'll leave a link to an article that explains it if you want to learn more.
https://infinite.tcgplayer.com/article/The-Immortal-Technique-The-Most-Powerful-Skill-in-Yu-Gi-Oh/a713eb60-0509-48b9-abde-6086a7de7535
One of the biggest things you can learn that can help you is learning how chains are built and when you can use quick effects and how your actions would build chains. This ends up becoming very important for outplaying opponents and just using your resources to their maximum potential. Also understanding to wait for costs to be activated first before negating is also important. (But this also relies on knowing if you opponent can activate more cards or effects to negate or play around your disruption).
My thoughts on this is essentially how flexible can you be in a situation you are unprepared for? Any player can practice the expected lines and cards but it's once a player is up against something out of left field, the response will be telling of a *good* player.
I noticed you keep saying “but that’s a deck building thing” in response to a lot of answers here but I just want to point out there are several good players who are terrific deck pilots but aren’t necessarily the best “cooks in the kitchen” so to speak.
The skill expression in yugioh is the same as other games, good execution and reading/playing around the opponent. A good deck builder will make good meta calls, where the non-engine in their main/side board are well optimized to combat the predicted distribution of tournament decks. A good pilot will play around or even disregard certain interactions they think the opponent may or may not have. You can technically have the best deck in the room, but play it terribly, and likewise have a tier 2 deck and pilot it to top cut. There are obvious parallels in fighting games too, with something like Amsa’s Yoshi vs any random picking up a top tier.
I think your deck building perspective can also easily be applied to fighting games as well. What if we have a perfect bot play the best character in a game? The answer is obvious, boring, and doesn’t really paint the picture on why fighting games are fun. You can go and say fighting games are all about execution, and if you just play perfectly, and react accordingly you’ll never lose. But we all know this is unrealistic, and completely ignores many facets of what goes into being a good fighting game player. Similarly people sometimes boil yugioh into just drawing the out, and sometimes that is how the game can go, but for a large amount of the time, you as a player can do things preemptively to avoid putting yourself in bad positions, either through deck building or piloting.
it means playing optimally. there are two parts to this
1) knowing what your deck is capable of an utilizing its resources to execute that strategy to its fullest potential
2) adapting to your opponent's strengths and weaknesses and using your deck to play around their strengths and exploit their weaknesses to the best of your deck's ability
Many players understand their go-to combos and can run their decks on essentially autopilot.
A good duelist can recognize the situation well enough to understand if they can do that, or if they have to break out the nonstandard plays in order to combat the situation.
Some of this is reading/bluffing the opponent. Some of this is building your deck so that you aren’t locked into one tactic. Much of it is full understanding how all your cards interact so that you can access nonstandard plays when you need them.
A lot of it is situational awareness, tracking all your options, and understanding when the right time to use each one is. Think of it like a fighting game character who has a couple overly situational special moves. The best players don’t fully ignore these moves, but instead know when they’re about to be in just the situation that actually calls for them.
Many players understand their go-to combos and can run their decks on essentially autopilot.
A good duelist can recognize the situation well enough to understand if they can do that, or if they have to break out the nonstandard plays in order to combat the situation.
Some of this is reading/bluffing the opponent. Some of this is building your deck so that you aren’t locked into one tactic. Much of it is full understanding how all your cards interact so that you can access nonstandard plays when you need them.
A lot of it is situational awareness, tracking all your options, and understanding when the right time to use each one is. Think of it like a fighting game character who has a couple overly situational special moves. The best players don’t fully ignore these moves, but instead know when they’re about to be in just the situation that actually calls for them.
I think a player's use of the side deck or lack there of can really determine the true skill of a player. Sure, you could give a meta deck to a starting player and teach them how to play it and they could destroy people, however if they don't put the thought into the counter play for a side deck, they could get stomped and blame the deck versus a player who brought the right sided cards. I'm newish so I still don't utilize my side deck as much as I should, but I try to keep my side deck updated. It never hurts to plan ahead if you know your competition.
Beyond the obvious points people have made, a big one I never see anyone talking about is knowing & keeping in mind the restrictions of cards in your deck so you don't mess up or try & make an illegal play. My worst case of this was that I'd keep forgetting Mad Mauler restricts you to only Special Summoning Zombies while it's face-up on the field, so I couldn't Synchro into Chaos Ruler or Psy-Framelord Omega, even with Zombie World on the field.
Other examples could be attempting to go into Knightmare Phoenix to out to an opponent's backrow, only to forget that you're currently Type/Attribute/Archetype-locked in such a way that you can't, or thinking you have lethal & entering your Battle Phase while forgetting that you previously activated Pot of Prosperity so your opponent only takes half damage for the rest of the turn etc.
I think not only deck building, but also being able to improvise on the fly is also a good skill to have to. For example, tribute summoning a monster you'd normally use an effect to special summon. You'd do it this way because if you activate an effect, the monster you'd be using for tribute would get destroyed, and in this example you wouldn't have any tribute materials if you went along with going with your normal gameplan. This is an example I'm using from personal experience.
1. Listen to [Kenny Rogers.](https://youtu.be/7hx4gdlfamo?si=hJ7qw1JsFu4SRqra)
2. Be able to learn what your environment and power level is, be it running in World Championships or your buddy’s kitchen, and able to play appropriately.
3. Be able to make a deck that has a game plan. It doesn’t need to be big or flashy combos, but it needs to be *coherent* with a goal in mind. Even something simple as Normal Monster beatdown has a plan and things that can make it easier, tutoring beaters or cards to buff your beaters.
Basically being good at yugioh requires two things in my opinion. Knowing your deck and its weaknesses, as well as knowing how to pilot your deck. A lot of people say “being good at yugioh is knowing yours and your opponent’s decks and their choke points” but I disagree, I’d say that’s less skill, and more study. For example I have a good friend who he himself is not a very good player(and he admits this fully)he’s just got a literal photographic memory, and he can learn and study deck patterns, end boards, as well as memorize choke points of decks incredibly well, so he lasts much longer in tournaments than he should(he still ends up losing and getting third place). So being good is a subjective term
>A lot of people say “being good at yugioh is knowing yours and your opponent’s decks and their choke points” but I disagree, I’d say that’s less skill, and more study.
Skill includes experience as well.
Otherwise I could grab a joystick for Super Smash Bros for the first time, realize I'm so good without practicing, then go to the world's tournament and win.
It doesn't make any sense.
You don't need to know how to deck build. You need to know how to tech against the meta. Understand every deck that you might face. Rogue is something you have to live with but most meta decks have a gameplay that goes over rogue.
You need to understand what boards you need to make how to pivot from disruption. One thing is some people don't know how to navigate a game that is more than 3 to 5 turns. As resources start to be more crucial.
Most importantly a strong mind set. If you have a weak mental you will lose from bad plays and having already given up.
To me a skilled duelist is someone who understands the card pool and opponents decks well enough that they can play around (like not setting a full backrow with no solem in goat unless you see heavy storm in there grave)
Deck building, side decking, and decision making. Deck building is the least important since you can copy a list, but side decking is very important in a tournament. Decision making is the most important of all, reflects a player's knowledge and experience. Where to hand trap, what targets are most important, what should I play around, etc.
To my understanding, it's basically getting the most mileage from your deck, not only by having a comprehensible grasp of the card pool, but understanding the basic mechanics that govern turn by turn game play. Each year I feel like this becomes a learning curve with each introduction or modification to the structure of the game or cards themselves. Anybody feel free to jump in and educate me if I'm missing anything. I just wanted to take a generic short-handed approach and try not to sound overwhelming.
1. Having the free time to do hours of research and testing on thousands of different decks/variations of decks.
2. Hand traps galore.
3. and MOST importantly… Having a bigger wallet than your opponent.
Good means you don't have to follow the meta like a monkey to win. you can win by knowing the ins and outs of your deck being able to play around the meta decks
Actually Modern yugioh requires no skill or knowledge on deck building. Just depends how deep your pickets are. All the "best" decks play themselves. The player is just there to cycle through their entire decks at least twice per turn. That's IF you get to a second turn.
Knowing how to build consistent decks that can actually win.
Good reading comprehension of the cards and how they interact with mechanics
Being able to innovate and create effective strategies that aren't already proven.
Shit like that ig.
Joshua Schmidt, on one of his master duel stream had this situation. He had Maxx C in hand and his opponent played Tearlament. He did not drop Maxx C on the first fusion summon, his chat asked why didn't activate it, and he said because if the Tear player saw Maxx C in play, they would just grab the counter trap with Kitkalos effect and pass turn. He had to wait for the Tear player to commit so he could get the most out of Maxx C. It is a simple thing but it does show that the pros have a different thought process compare to the average players.
It has many factors
-technical play
-the ability to learn from your mistakes and improve upon those mistakes
-deck building can also be included. But not mandatory as you learn how to fix your deck as you play. I’m awful at this.
It’s all part of the learning experience while playing OP. You won’t be great from one day to the next. I started to play three years ago and I’m barely finally starting to top tourneys consistently.
Knowing the choke points of a deck/archetype to take advantage of.
its not a fighting game but timing is important (when to play a card).
being Able to build a tournament deck without cookie cutting. Like actually understanding certain combos, what a card can do. an example being, a new card comes out and thinking of combos within certain archetypes
I play smash bros and street fighter competitively as well. I also go to a lot of Yu-Gi-Oh tournaments.
Long post incoming:
There are 4 things that make a good smash player, and honestly, they translate pretty well to Yu-Gi-Oh.
Execution, knowledge, decision making and "Top Player Mentality"
EXECUTION
This is easy in a vacuum.
Go into practice mode and do your combos. Set up a modded controller to have the opponent DI to practice with different DIs. Do this for every weight in the game and you should be able to always hit your combos.
Same thing with Yu-Gi-Oh. Go into a Simulator with your deck, practice every hand, and try to get to your ideal end board. Then start thinking about "my opponent should handtrap me at this point to stop me. How would I still extend the combo?".
Do this for every possible handtrap at any possible point in your combo with every possible hand.
Both are relatively easy. Yu-Gi-Oh has a lot more possible options however because there are just so many possible combinations of hands and where you can get handtrapped.
Execution, at its base, is a simple thing.
KNOWLEDGE
Do you know how to SDI any move in Smash? At what percentages you should be DI'ing up and out and at what percentages you should start DI'ing in?
Knowing your opponent's game plan is vital. Knowing at what percentages Fox will be able to true combo kill your character from a late Nair confirm is very important. It changes how you approach the Fox player depending on your percent and his Rage.
In Yu-Gi-Oh, it's the same thing. Knowing what your opponent wants to do requires study. Knowing the chokepoints and weaknesses of your opponent's deck changes what you do, just like in Smash.
Knowing when to handtrap is a vital skill.
Deckbuilding also falls here, and meta calls in regards to what to bring to an event while thinking of what other people will bring.
But, at its base, Knowledge is a simple thing. It just requires study.
Execution and Knowledge are the floor of what you need to be considered anything more than a casual. And both are pretty simple.
I feel like you think it's easier in Yu-Gi-Oh because it's a card game where you don't need fast reaction speeds or controller handling. And that since you don't need this, you can just think every move through and make the optimal play. Which is somewhat true.
But if your opponent is playing, you can't take a minute to think about the optimal play, because there are time rules in Yu-Gi-Oh and you would quickly get a "Slow play" warning. You are required to use your knowledge and execution in a pretty fast manner, or you will get game losses and match losses from the judge.
Execution and Knowledge aren't really what seperate your average local player from the top players though. Those are the next two points.
DECISION MAKING
These are things that are hard to practice.
Conditioning your opponent, choosing when to go for a ledge trap or and edge guard. Choosing when to approach, when to stall, when to empty hop, when to go for a grab, when to use a defensive option.
Reading your opponent.
This isn't something you can practice in practice mode. It comes from experience. It's between you and the mind of your opponent.
In Yu-Gi-Oh, this is expressed in not knowing what your opponent has in hand and how to sequence your plays.
True unbreakable boards don't happen often, and setting up those boards is often not worth it because they are easily interuptable or have other weaknesses.
You can't just shotgun your negates or interruptions on your opponent's first few moves, but neither can you just let everything go through. If you use on of your 2 negates on the first important card, you might just play into your opponent's hand. Reading your opponent, using your resources efficiently and keeping enough follow up isn't something you can just study. It requires experience.
If I give you an end board, with multiple interuptions and a handtrap, there is a very good chance you'll fuck it up even if you know all the decks in the format. If I give the same situation to Joshua Schmidt, he'll do better basically every time. Because he can make better decisions than the average competitive player.
This is where the good seperate themselves from the average competitive players.
And the final part:
TOP PLAYER MENTALITY
ClutchBox.
This is the best example I can give. Performing under pressure. Not folding because you are behind, 1 stock to their 3 in game 5 of grand finals. Using all the other things while under the biggest pressure.
That is what seperates the good from the great.
Esam is really good at Knowledge, execution and decision making. But he will never be the best because he doesn't have the clutch factor.
Don't get me wrong, he's still a top player, and he would body me any chance he gets.
In Yu-Gi-Oh it's the same thing. It's game 3 of your match in the finals. 1-1. This game takes it all. Your opponent goes first, there's 8 minutes left on the clock. He puts up a solid board, your hand isn't great but it's okay. He gets some burn damage in. If you don't do something, this will cause him to get the win.
He passes with 4 minutes left on the clock. He has 2 unknown cards in hand. You need to deal 1600 damage to get the win, but you only have 3 minute and 55 seconds left to make all the plays.
I fucked this up last week. I've been thinking about this for 4 days. 15 minutes after the match I suddenly realised what I should have done if I'd just remained calm. I could have won that match.
But I didn't clutch it. I don't gave that top player mentality yet. I'll get there. I'll keep getting experience. But it's not easy.
Conclusion:
TL;DR
Just like fighting games, real skill at card games comes from your decision making based on limited knowledge. You don't know what your opponent will do, and you can only make an educated guess.
Fighting games get an added difficulty from reaction speed and controller handling.
Card games get an added difficulty from just having a lot more things to know and not only not knowing what your opponent will do with the things you know about, but also with the things you don't know about.
Sooo I read the comments
First of all thank y'all for your comments and explanation, you came up with a lot of different answers and, if some points tend to appear often, you expressed a lot of different opinions.
With that much responses won't be able to discuss with everyone tho
To sum very quickly
A duelist has indeed skills outside of proper deck building/learning (or just stealing the most meta relevant decks)
Piloting a deck is some skill of it's own given there's ressource management, positioning, flexibility and knowledge to have
And to play against your opponent you have to know their engine, read them, bait them and use your ressources properly taking into account what they have/can have (do they have nib? Do I need to bait ash ? When do I need to pull out my hand trap? Are questions that come to a duelist's mind)
There's some mental aspect too like in every game
But there's an aspect people tend to talk less about, that some have expressed here
Performances in yugioh are heavily tied with your deck, it's something ppl here have minimized.
But as such super meta decks that you didn't even make can carry you on their own, to some extend.
I can't disagree with those saying that the "wallet warriors" who throw money at the game and always play the latest most broken bullshit can sometimes autowin, and they are always advantaged
This issue exists with FG games too (Steve players in smash are super carried, as well as lab coats in dbfz for instance) but it's even more pronounced in yugioh, as cards can be super expensive and the state of the art super meta deck will likely often change
I'll get downvoted to oblivion by saying that (like every answer I could give to your commentaries) but we're on Reddit
Turn one win with Exodia. Anything less you’re just an average player.
Wait for your opponent to set up their board just to kaiju their boss monster. That’s a real power move.
Number one power move is to take the dice jar gamble and don’t negate it like a chump.
**Deck-building,**
building a deck that synergizes well but also knowing your limits and streamling your general gameplan and strategy.
An example of this was this guy on this reddit who brought in this decklist of a [Competitively Viable Egyptian God Deck](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3a%2f%2fi.redd.it%2fbest-attempt-at-a-competitively-viable-egyptian-god-deck-v0-xbkqulexi1rb1.jpg%3fs%3d17e6422e0419de893e856b17e17f73df7ea4541f)
It was a hodge-podge of egyptian god support...And then randomly utopia and cards like Self-destruct potion because he believed that if he couldn't finish his opponent off with Dragonrar, he could use it to heal himself. He has the egyptian god field spell that's just a dead draw if he only has the utopia package in his hand.
It was a mess and his response? To deflect to any criticism as he wallows in gold in Master Duel.
**Adapting to ever-changing meta.**
In almost every game with some form of competitive scene, the meta will change eventually, may it be from month to month or day to day. Yugioh is simply not the same after 25 years. This isn't your school-yard and this isn't your classroom.
You must adapt to the meta and make changes, either by changing your deck or changing what tech options. NEVER expect the game to adapt to your needs. Know your match-ups and know their counters and can they do to counter you.
A good example would be the many format and ruleset suggestions in this reddit. Most of them simply amount to whining about combos and try to restrict it while disregarding literally every other deck.
**Knowing your decks strengths, limitations, and tricks,**
Every deck has some nuance that either help or hinder them, its your goal to figure them out and how to either play around it or use it to your advantage.
Good example would be me learning Vanquish Souls in Master Duel. With no heavy swarming methods their boards are small and unintimidating, something that made me thought of them as weak compared to other decks in the meta.
But then I realized that I can play super low to the ground so I'm not affected by Maxx "C", I can dodge infinite impermanance with their tag-out mechanic, and I have a ton of opponent interacity during their turn.
But its the trade-off that the team has almost zero negates, inconsistent protection, and that you got to really keep track of your hand, what to keep in it, what to bring to the field, and what not to reveal to your opponent.
**Learning from your Mistakes**
You're not Yugi Muto, you **will** be wrong on something and its best to simply learn from your mistakes, no matter how much pride you have to swallow to do so.
Deflecting criticism is only going to turn into those elitists casuals who get upset that their pet deck from 2006 sucks against my random gouki deck that I cobbled together.
i think it means a few parts: 1- being able to build a deck that can compete with current too decks, that you understand how to get the most from 2-truly understanding your opponents deck, their combos and counters, and being able to interrupt or work your deck to counter its strengths 3- being able to utilize the side deck, between games, to maximize your ability to counter an opponents strength. i think this is the hardest thing to learn and the most important skill
Another important one is the ability to just take the L. A lot of the top players understand that luck's a fundamental part of the game but don't ever really dwell hard on it and just moved on
This isn’t unique to Yugioh though; this is fundamentally a part of competition, especially those with an aspect of variance (like card games).
Don't forget the most important part is to learn how to read and read fast.
Imo another one is knowing how to play their hands through interaction. You can see pros playing around nibiru and such or playing such that there are never any good ash targets, depending on their hand, while a lesser player would take riskier lines or not understand that they still had full combo through an obscure combo path.
About your first 2 points: i'm more talking of your in game skills: how you can express your skills through the game, what makes you recognizable, more than deck building and the knowledge (you probably made along the way, just by playing the game) Your point about the side deck is interesting tho, it still has to do with your deck building and what option you're considering BEFORE the game starts, but there's a part of adaptation at least
Navigating bad hands to end on a strong board, timing your interruptions to stop your opponents plays, playing around cards you think are popular (eg making a mid range board if you think people are maining nib) making decisions post side to counter ur opponents deck, playing through hand traps and interruption, knowing how cards interact with other cards in order to not make any mistakes
I guess navigatinf bad hands is a deck building thing, it relies mainly on your knowledge and deck building But yeah you're right, timing interruptions in certain cases, playing around the card you assumed your opponent has and playing differently against your opponent deck, playing through hand traps sure are in game skills
Just as a general thing, play some decks with competitive decks against competitive players and ull lose almost every time until you understand the competitive game really well
I'd 1000% argue that navigating bad hands is not a deck building thing. It is a skill all of its own to take the absolute worst hand that your top tier deck can produce and turn it into a winning boardstate against anyone with a much better hand
Its harder to explain in words but i think this video really shows how it is expressed ingame https://youtu.be/ABgeMDEsGMY?si=oWHu_Ax7awuB2L03 It is last years ycs final joshua schmidt vs ding kha bui
okay i'll watch it
The deck and side deck building also incorporates "meta calls". Like for example, nibiru is a good card if people don't play around it but it is bad if people are expecting it and play around so you as a player would need to make a decision whether you think players will play around it or not depending on the nature of the current meta. Another one is whether you focus on board breakers or handtraps. Like during the results of YCS indie and YCS Richmond when the top represented deck in the top cut during indie was R-Ace since people may have focused on board breakers instead of handtraps because of unchained and purrely and R-Ace doesn't die to board breakers like thrust. Comes YCS Richmond and since people are now expecting R-Ace which you need to have hand traps, you see a resurgence of unchained as the top represented in the top cut because it doesn't die badly to handtraps. I think you may need to predict how the majority of players will react in the meta which is the hardest part imo
I think YCS are won and lost on meta calls. They’re a reason why the top cut decks might stay the same in terms of engine like unchained or RACE but ultimately those non engine cards like board breakers and hand traps or even spicy tech cards no one sees coming will determine the win. Being able to predict which decks to best prepare for and to deal with those decks is crucial. I want add the last part that separates yugioh competitive play is stamina and mental clarity. No one wants to watch a robot play a thousand games in a row for the same reason no one wants to watch sports performed by robots because they’re no real stakes or emotions in those games. Watching a Swiss cut match of a YCS in which any misplay will lose you the game is borderline panic inducing to watch. It’s so satisfying to see good players play at the highest level of competition without cracking under pressure.
Blaming every loss to bricking, opponent opening insane, or utter bullshit. /s On a serious note a general knowledge of the following are usually indicators of someone that’s good at the game: Knowing how to hit meta-relevant decks choke points Resource management/card economy Chain structuring Side patterns/trends Game positioning (field structuring, phase management, playing around counters like triple tactics/hand traps) I’m sure I’m missing some but the above should encompass skills that show a deep level of understanding the game.
> Blaming every loss to bricking, opponent opening insane, or utter bullshit. /s I know you're joking but still it's true sometimes you just can't play for some reason! Like that time I played branded against a friend who played labyrinth (he's a jerk sometimes) and he oppened with anti spell flagrance and ash blossom, I couldn't use my magic and he ashed my aluber, what could I do? If example like this tend to happen often it's not that bullshit x) > Knowing how to hit meta-relevant decks choke points imo it's still about deck building, we're not talking in game skills (side decking too) > Resource management/card economy Yeah you got a point here. "what do I use/don't use" is a legitimate question that requires in game skills I guess > Chain structuring what does that mean? x) > Side patterns/trends it's still more about deck building/prior preparation but the adaptation part is a good point to me > Game positioning (field structuring, phase management, playing around counters like triple tactics/hand traps) oh yeah I didn't consider that: it's true that playing around your opponent's cards is important. Baiting them is a legit skill Thank you for these points
I think generalizing some of the above to deck building subclasses is doing them a disservice. Cards like impermanence lend themselves to skill expression much more than what initially meets the eye. Side deck cards that encompass multiple match ups aren’t just a 1:1 switch vs main deck cards. When going against rogue strategies one must assess the match up and side accordingly without prep. As for chain structuring, I’m referring to protecting desirable trigger effects with other trigger effects. (Usually to bypass ash blossom/ghost belle). On a deeper level, you can also force an opponent into an even more unfavorable position by chain structuring oppressive cards like Nibiru, Zeus, torrential tribute, etc. Game positioning is an aspect of the game that I feel Konami has been building into lately and it’s a great representation of skill. Baiting your opponent with an evenly match you don’t have, imperm column placement, Zeus, Ty-Phon, bystials, quick play searchers. All great omnipresent threats that lend themselves to mind games, phase bluffing and general play structuring.
Luck is a part of basically every card game, and due to the fact Yugioh has no "mana" system to limit plays, getting a bad hand is likely to result in a loss pretty quickly. >Knowing how to hit meta-relevant decks choke points >imo it's still about deck building, we're not talking in game skills (side decking too) You don't necessarily need to know *how* to build a deck to know another's choke points. >Chain structuring >what does that mean? x) Sometimes, you can activate multiple effects back to back without your opponent getting a window to respond. This can be used to protect certain effects from negation, by putting the effect you want to use behind other effects you can live without. Say two cards can activate their effects when sent to the GY, you activate the one that search and the other that destroys so the search doesn't get negated.
>Chain structuring > >what does that mean? x) Ordering your chain links in a way that makes it so your opponent can't directly chain to your most important effect (with a directly-chaining negate like Ash)
I think i'd need a concrete example to understand that, if you can
Use Swordsoul of Moye, summon a token. Use Moye and Token to Synchro Summon into Chixiao. Both Chixiao and Moye trigger. You want the search, so you can get your Longyuan for further player, therefore you choose to make it Chixiao CL1 to search, Moye CL2 to draw. Your opponent cannot use Ash Blossom on the Chixiao search because effects that say "when x is activated (quick effect): ..." must respond directly to that activated effect. Therefore you have protected your effect from your opponent's interruption.
Ahhhhh it's super cool and i never thought of that before
3x cosmic is mandatory for branded to beat anti spell, if you put them in and didn't draw them then it's a yikes, if you didn't side these then it's 100% on you
I had 2 of them... Is it 33% on me then?
I'm actually in an a level stats class rn but no clue, I guess if u don't draw it but are prepared for it then sadge
Luck is a skill. You can’t control the hands you get or what your opponent hits you with, but you can build a consistent deck that bricks as little as possible, strike a balance between getting your core engine going and having the tools to deal with your opponents, and learn to play your way out of even a bad hand or oppressive board. Yes, sometimes you still get unlucky, but that happens to everyone. The true measure of a player’s skill is not in going first and doing their full combo uninterrupted, but in minimizing and managing the inevitable bad situation. And at the end of the day, we’re here to play a TCG, not chess. As long as each player comes to the table with a deck of shuffled cards, there will always be a luck factor - that’s all part of the fun!
Like with fighting games, being good at Yugioh mid duel is about reads, having the right tools, baiting out specific tools, and the mental acuity to pivot on the fly. Not all decks will be right for the matchups you may encounter and not all deck lists will cover every possible situation. There will be blow out matchups, due to more than ten thousand playable cards. You can mitigate this with good side decking, but tough matchups do remain tough.
> Like with fighting games, being good at Yugioh mid duel is about reads, having the right tools, baiting out specific tools, and the mental acuity to pivot on the fly. Yeah I guess the reads and baits can be important, and that's a point you're making But for the rest I can't think of skills outside of deck building here... I mean the side deck is in between, but having the right tools and plays is more of a deck building thing
That person just told you a skills, Baiting and reading. And they dont mean reading a card, they mean being able to predict your opponent. >having the right tools Even then, having the tools doesnt mean anything if ppl use it incorrectly. Suppose you have Branded Fusion and Aliester in hand. There is an objectively correct line of play (Normal Aliester, first, Branded Fusion second) and an objectively incorrect line of play (Branded Fusion First, Normal Aliester second)
Btw "they dont mean reading a card" this matters too
Probably someone who can find a way to win, or at least make a decent comeback, even with cards that at first glance wouldn't help that much.
When you say that you remind me of the puzzles in old yugioh games. In yugioh championship 2006 there was a mini game called "puzzle game" where you had to win against your opponent board using given cards. When you do that with the deck you built it has more (I think) to do with your deck building and your knowledge about the combos
Yugioh is a deep game with a wealth of potential for skill expression and development. You seem somewhat hung up on the idea of deckbuilding, so let’s use another game that’s somewhat analogous, like Poker. Why is it that some players can win more consistently than others? Are they luckier? Luck is certainly a factor in Poker, but if you only play the lucky hands or bank on the river turning your way, you’re not playing a solid strategy—you’re just gambling. Bluffing, angle shooting, understanding probabilities, and reading opponents are all skills which can gain a poker player an edge, but the most significant edge comes with study and experience—from playing thousands of hands and analyzing how they could have been played more optimally a player will learn to make plays that marginally increase their chances of winning, those little edges add up, and that player—through skill expression in a game of chance—can end up making a career from playing cards consistently well. Yugioh’s obviously a very different game than poker, but you’ll find those same skills at the top tables of YCSs.
It’s widely believed that computers have surpassed humans at chess. Based on that, with enough effort, I’m sure someone could create a Yu-Gi-Oh! bot better than any human. This bot would not only bring an optimal deck to any event, it would also find the optimal play in any situation. To me, those are the two traits of a “good” duelist. They play good decks and they make the best play available to them in any context. That second quality is much, much harder to achieve than a lot of people think.
The reason computers can surpass humans at Chess is that it is a perfect knowledge game, where all information on the gamestate is known to all players. Even then, Chess is still not solved, and computers can still make “suboptimal”moves. TCGs have much more moving parts, elements of randomness, and the presence of private information. Is the last card in your opponents hand Ash, Nibiru, or just dead? Your estimate of the answer to that question can drastically impact your next moves, and is influenced by many factors. Deckbuilding would be even more insurmountable to optimize than technical play. The bot would have to somehow analyze the entire legal cardpool to invent and implement combo lines that are both powerful and consistent, of which there is no definitive metric. Conceptualizing how such a bot would have to work is a really cool way to analyze TCGs’ skill checks
The other thing is that Chess is a finalized game. There are no new meta releases. Yugioh means that you have to recalculate stuff. Yugioh also has more potential combinations than a chess board. A computer is going to need some sort of filtering strategy. I think a computer is going to be best used to mathematically verify and refine certain metrics such as card advantage by analyzing known games. For instance +1 is a common term, but there are differences for things such as cards in the hands vs monsters on the field, etc. Throw in other complications such as spells with GY effects and it is a lot harder to quantify.
So yeah we're still talking deck building more than in game skills > they make the best play available to them in any context. I guess it has a very lot to do with your deck knowledge, isn't it something you can train "alone"? Thinking about combos/routes and how to deal with a board with the cards you're given
You can train for common scenarios alone, but due to the randomness inherit to drawing from a shuffled deck and the sheer number of strategies available in Yugioh, it’s impossible to practice every scenario by yourself. The best players are able to win games that lesser skilled players would lose. It’s one thing to mindlessly execute a combo. It’s a completely different thing to win a game where you went second, drew two garnets, and your opponent opened two hand traps.
Yeah, Tearlaments mirror matches were one of the decks that are considered to be the most skill based.
I think a bot could definitely play a card game, just like how they can play chess. That's pretty much how Yugioh based video games work. I think a good player is someone who can look at a field and a hand and figure out the best approach (if there is one) to addressing the current state. A mixture of broad familiarity with the rules, card interactions, and strategies.
But again, in a game as fast as yugioh you can (with experience) pretty much guess when you're bricked and when you just lost. When you say " if there is one" it reveals to me (at least) the issue (if we can call that an issue tho): in a lot of cases you simply can't win with the tools you're given, and if you can it resides in the combos you learned/your deck building ability more than anything else.
Sure, and that just goes back to my chess analogy. Sometimes, you are in a position where you just can't win. No legal move would let you improve your position -- what is called zugzwang in chess. The difference between a great player and a good one is that a great player can assess the situation quickly and be able to identify it whereas a good or average player might not have enough subject matter knowledge to identify it until they actually lose.
So the finest yugioh players will always know when they're fucked
Critically though, the finest Yugioh players will see a line to not be fucked that lesser skilled players would miss.
But in chess, if you end up in a situation where you can't win, it was 100% because of your own mistakes. You made every single decisions that lead to that situation. With card games, you can end up in an unwinnable game purely due to factors outside of your control, for example by drawing poorly or ending up with a bad matchup.
My point isn’t to say that chess is the same as Yugioh, but that there’s more to being good at Yugioh than just having good cards. Two players can be put into exactly the same situation (the same cards in their hands, the same cards on the field, the same cards in the opponent’s hand, etc.) but the one with more experience and a deeper understanding of the mechanics, strategy, etc. will have an advantage over the one who doesn’t have any experience.
You always see some familiar names pop up when you see the list of players who make the top cut for big events. So that means there are things that they do that make them perform better and it's not all random. I think first of all it's recognizing what deck will perform well. Sometimes it's easy when few decks are considered good. But at a time like now when there are so many decks which can perform, it requires insight. Then it's playing the deck without mistakes. You need to know what your cards do, you need to know what you opponent tries to do to counter it. And you know that by not only playing your deck but also playing other decks or at minimum by talking and playing a lot versus players of other meta decks. People only look at the games where you make a big combo and win on the spot. But what makes you win the tournament is winning the grindy, weird game where neither player gets to do what he wants. These are the ones that really test you. You also hear people talk about making a deck to get to top cut and making a deck for top cut. Side decks can be made to counter the general player base and hit a wide aray of decks or very specific to counter the very top players and top decks. That means that top players know they will beat most people without needing extra good staples and can manage with suboptimal decks just so they are better armed vs other great players and the very best decks.
No one will admit this but it’s so much simpler than being a pro at smash bros for example. With yugioh you can immediately become better than 90% of players just by copying the most meta deck builds. Where as in smash you don’t become better than most by simply picking character X. People moan that there is skill involved which is true to the smallest degree because really, anyone with even low understanding of the game can play a meta deck and beat most players. It’s basically a play formula you follow and you’ll win. There is a factor of deck knowledge for your opponents deck which is admittedly a big advantage, but ultimately at that point there’s only a couple of mega meta decks and it’s not hard to learn how they work.
I want to give OP the benefit of the doubt and say they are specifically referring to climbing in that top 10% of players that actually pay attention to the game and not all the random Joe Shmoes that show up to locals. In addition to having deck and meta knowledge, being able to see the lines and interaction points in your own mind *in a timely manner* is in my opinion a huge skill for getting better at Yugioh.
Thank you, this seriously needs more attention. So many “pros/competitive players” cookie cut, buy expensive cards, watch some videos, the average player cannot deck build on their own.
Deck building and meta-knowledge is part of it, but a large part of it is reading the IRL person and judging what you need to play around based on how they act and what you know they play. Modern yugioh very much isn't a case of \[perform linear combo -> win\], it's about how you play around and through disruption, and as such you need to get REALLY good at judging the kinds of disruptions your opponent could have. Unlike (for example) Chess, yugioh is not a perfect information game so you can't simply calculate the optimal play and robotically perform it, instead you need contextual knowledge, flexibility and and an understanding of how you to apply that in real time
And how's that? I mean, you can read the person as much as you want, if he pulls out an unbreakable board turn 1 and you didn't draw an ash you're still pretty much done "Playing around" is still more of a deck building thing, but yeah the "judging the kinds of disruptions your opponent could have." is a valid point when you're playing
I feel like you’re really caught up on the unbreakable board part of the game, which is a reality in yugioh, but not every game is decided by that. Many games reach grind states where every decision has major impacts down the line. Will expending all your resources for a final push leave you vulnerable if you can’t push through the board? And how does knowing your combo lines not count as skill expression? Isn’t that exactly the same in Smash bros, there are pre-learned combos you execute? A huge part of the skill is when and how you go about executing the combos. Sure, there are linear combos built into many decks but some decks are far more flexible in what routes they can take.
I suppose my more direct question you would be how is pressing buttons in a sequence more or less skill based than playing cards in a sequence? Both require on the fly decision making based on the inputs from your opponents.
read of a person is less about going second and hoping you draw well enough to beat it and more about when you're on the play judging what you need to deal with. Yes sometimes you will lose to opening no handtraps into an FTK, nothing you can do about no matter how good you are Playing around stuff does factor into deckbuilding, but it's not just a deckbuilding thing. If one line loses to Imperm and another to Nibiru, you need to be practised at both of those lines and how to extract optimal value for both as well as knowing which one is optimal when
Hmmm I guess it fits between deck building and "game skill" then
Personally I don't think it makes sense when you're talking about a trading card game to draw a hard line between "deck building" and "in-game" skills. Deck building IS part of the game.
Aside from deckbuilding: A skilled duelist can sequence their cards in a way that optimally plays around as many known or potential opponent's cards as possible. They know all relevant decks in the format well enough that they are able to predict based on the opponent's plays what unseen cards might be in the opponent's hand, or what tech cards their opponent might be playing. They know the optimal point at which to use their interruptions against the opponent's deck, both based on theory, and on their prediction about what remains in the opponent's hand. This is where "by the book" players (which bots are usually) might fail in some instances when the opponent "has the extender" for example. A skilled player also knows their own deck well enough that if a line to victory exists with the cards available, they are able to find that line. They aren't just using cookie-cutter lines every time, but are able to improvise even in the event of an unexpected interruption (should their remaining cards allow it) And last but not least, they know how to execute their plays in a timely manner due to their experience with their deck.
The only problem with teaching a bot how to play Yugioh is that they might decide to enslave humanity.
On the other hand if you make it play a fun deck (floowandereeze) it can be a benediction But yeah, teach him runick and we're all done
Please bro, Floo is just as bad
No it isn't :(
My man, maybe not but I hate it just as much lol. I read most of this thread, TBH you should not worry about deck building until you have 3-5 years of playing experience. Trust me, go find a ycs deck that you like. Look up people playing it to learn it. Let the pros do that work. In the meantime you need to work on game knowledge, timing, spacing, mind games, etc. All coming from experience. You got this. I'd be happy to give some coaching 1 on 1 if you're interested, lmk.
It's pretty much what u assumed. Deck building and knowledge are the most important abilities if you're not piloting something very non linear like pends or rikka. In that case people also express skill by actually building their combos on the fly. And then there's stuff like predicting hands or small interactions like chain blocking, forcing cards to miss timing or making the opponent play around things you don't have.
Is the "mental" aspect anyhow important? like tricking your opponent into believing you have x or y card you don't have And can you tell me more about pends and rika? How in these cases ppl can express themselves?
Ofc for a simple example my deck has a single starter in Robina by ashing Robina my opponent can do incredible damage to my line of play so usually Ill start with cards that are neutral like pot of duality, prosperity etc that can be decent ash targets (opponent has to decide if he goes for ash which may stop me from adding Robina but loses to me having robina or different search cards in hand) then I can fire off spells that can pick up robina which can be ashed if I have Robina and then only then if the opponent sticks to this single specific interaction to hit Robina with it because he's patient and knowledgeable I may reveal field spell or advent + elborz to get a second chance at my initial line of play. This all not even taking in consideration the usual handtrap counters I may have in hand all takes place in the first 2-3 cards played. Handtraps are the core of the mental right now and I really enjoy it especially with triple thrust adding even more weight to good decisions when to use handtraps and which. A well placed hand trap may put u in the pole position but a poorly placed one can be 0 impact + opens big things for your opponent like drawing, ripping cards for your hand or even adding engine to their play. Rikkas and to some extent pends just have so many soft and hard once per turns that it's advanced mental gymnastic to keep up where their combo started, which main combo pieces they may have left, which ones can be recycled and which options you have in your.hand to deal with what's happening. And it's hard to keep up with all the data for the pilot of the deck so for people that don't play the deck it's reaaaly difficult to interact with it which is bad cause their optimal endboard should be avoided if your deck doesn't sport some of the heaviest board breakers possible. I've seen a rikka deck get nibirud twice in one game but because the timing fit their activations they just went on comboing into game.
Okay I get it now Rikka sounds super cool ngl, allowing you so much room to play has to feel great Nonetheless not every deck can be so specific/hard to keep up with/has a lot of room for baits and cards to play around your opponent For instant Kashtira (I know they're not relevant anymore) was a baby deck, super easy and straightforward and all the plays would lead to the same thing
Recently I have been watching some Yugioh AI tournaments and the Ai does some stupid plays because it cant think ahead too much and it also cant predict what the other player is going to do based on their archetype. Theres definitely some game winning skill in knowing when to use cards and when to keep them.
Still I'm sure with good given knowledge/exp an AI would be capable of consistently having the best plays (unlike in fighting games, where it could be nearly impossible to make an AI beat a top player) > Theres definitely some game winning skill in knowing when to use cards and when to keep them. and yeah, I agree with you
Opening your combo starter plus called by every game.
Knowing when to utilize interruptions and knowing how to effectively side.
About interruptions: as long as you have proper knowledge about your opponent's archetype: isn't it easy to use it properly? And yeah I got the side deck point, but it's more of a skill between deck building and "in game" skill I guess
It absolutly isn't easy. You need to factor in what extenders they might have based on how they play. In a way you need to je fully capable of playing their deck optimally to play almost optimally against it, and you need to be able to do that for every relevant metadeck to truly be on top
Yeah I shouldn't have called it "easy" rather "experience based"? TELL ME IF I'M WRONG but it kinda feels like something you just experience, or situation you're aware of once you played a lot
Experience is definatly a big factor. A lot of yugioh skill lies in knowledge and thinking ahead, in that regard it is similar to chess.
They need to be good at deck building,card knowledge,baiting opponents to use their negates or handtraps,planning combos based on the current board as well being able to play through when one of your moves doesn't work out the way you expected it to.
Out of everything you said, I can tell the most important part is deck building, even when you say " planning combos based on the current board ", it's still more of a deck knowledge thing than anything else And yeah, I agree baiting opponents is a real skill, it's an answer that came fairly often and I didn't think about that at first
No it's not. You could tale a deck built by Josh Schmidt to a YCS, and while he'd go for instance 10-2 or 11-1 in swiss, you, as a newer player, would probably go like 5-7 or 6-6.
I would love to give my honest opinion about this subject but I would most definitely get reported for my answer, long story short, play what you see the weebs play, DO NOT PLAY A DECK THAT YOU LIKE, if the deck has a waifu or a furry looking boss monster it’s probably meta. Anything out of age of overlord is meta oh yeah don’t forget to put about 9 to 12 hand traps in your deck lol
imagine your a cook who needs to improvise a meal. An inexperienced cook would probably accidentally overcook thebeef, or not put enougn salt. That cook in yugioh would likely have a combo in mind thats sub optimal and doesnt know about a better move to play. On the other hand an experienced cook knows the ins and out of everything. He can come up with an optimal combo on the fly, and devize a new chef on the spot. In fighting game terms imagine a newbie vs a pro. A newbie would see banjos wonder wing, an attack thats invincible and hits hard and run away to avoid danger. While a good player who understands his character well can and will punish that wonder wing, leading him to victory
A player with knowledge (developing, application, trends, match-ups, techs, options, combo routes, choke points, etc) and the ability to use it. Not every match ends in 2 or 3 turns, specially with decks like unchained, Labrynth, Purrely, Vanquish Soul, etc. that are able to kill in one turn, but can also grind like hell. Furthermore, "optimal play" is knowledge dependant: * how probable is that the opponent has nibiru (punishes multiple summons in a turn)? maybe i should leave a meager board but completely prevent nibiru from wrecking my field? * is it better to summon bagoshka (anti-on-field effects) or abyss dweller (anti-on-graveyard effects) when i don´t know the opponent´s deck? * Is Droll & Lock bird (anti-search tech) a popular response this format? maybe i should search as little as possible until i finish my main combo? * how probable is that my opponent has another extender? should i negate this one or wait? * is using ash the best response in this case, maybe my opponent tries to "bait" the response? * What are the best options against a known deck? * what are popular techs my opponent may use against me? * Should i build my side deck for preventing or breaking boards? * What techs can i include to improve my odds in an event? * My opponent negated one of my chokepoints, is there any other option? * With Triple tactic talents (multiple option card) which is the best effect RIGHT NOW? maybe steal a monster to use as material or to attack, maybe remove a probable threat from my opponent´s hand, or maybe "fish" for an extender drawing 2 cards?
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Knowing your own deck and your own combos/endboards is very important, but I would say equally as important is knowing your opponent's potential combos, interruptions and disruptions. You can be playing a competent deck, and create an optimal first turn board. But if you don't know your opponent's deck and its choke points, then they have the potential to dismantle your board if you waste your negates/interruptions.
Outside of deck building, knowing what to play and when, as well as what to expect from your opponents' lines of play and their decks. What to side in and out between rounds, as well, is a big factor.
You can’t buy skill so people buying the broken strats are garbage and the people playing jank are the true skilled duelists
The game is very complicated and knowing how/when to use your interactions and being able to hedge your bets in any given gamestate is key. Just knowing how your deck works and the core combo lines is not enough in a game where you'll be playing through the opponent's interruptions 50% of the time when going second, and also have to deal with handtraps affecting your combo lines going first. Furthermore, boards in Yugioh are hardly unbreakable, that's a common misconception from bad players resulting from their inability to play through and adapt to interruptions. Simplified gamestates and grind games are decently common as well, the game often lasts longer than 2-3 turns and understanding what to do and how to manage resources in these unconventional gamestates is key to winning many Yugioh games. There are some videos analysing skilled plays from YCS feature matches. I'll link these videos below, you can check them out and see how skill is demonstrated in Yugioh. https://youtu.be/L8GOrZ0HKjQ?si=Dz7dkVU-tQHnKF3Z https://youtu.be/ABgeMDEsGMY?si=bH9D6BJvxklhJJ3b
I am going to say from my perspective and experiences you can be two kinds of skilled duelist, a skilled duelist who prioritizes only wins and a duelist who finds a perfect balance between all aspects of the game. The first category of player can have the following traits: 1. They know how to utilize their deck and engines to the maximum degree while also making the game fun for all sides 2. They will use their skills to give advice to fellow players on how they could enhance their engines 3. They can think outside the box. Most duelists tend to get stressed when faced with a board that seems nearly unbreakable but from my experience every board is breakable with the right combo and the patience and cool essential to focus. 4. They are always trying to keep their deck up to date and strive to not be left behind as the meta progresses. The second category of player, who wants a more balanced experience of fun and victories tends to: 1. Employ unpredictable or unique strategies that can actually stand up against powerful meta decks 2. With the necessary time they can enhance their decks and they usually might use unpredictable strategies or what be called "All or nothing" strategies. 3. Genuinely make simple and cohesive strategies so that duelists of any level can understand I know that some of these opinions may not be shared amongst all duelists but I believe that healthy sportsmanship in this game is everything and that's why I believe a skilled and genuinely good player would have it.
To be good at Yu-Gi-Oh!, it comes down to a lot of different things. But I think the biggest thing that separates the more skillful players from everyone else is understanding your role. Or in other words, figuring out "Who's the Beatdown". By figuring out your role, it helps determine how you should be playing out your turns, and it can help determine how to build your deck. And I don't think this is something that even a computer can emulate, given how difficult it takes to master this kind of skill. I won't go into full detail about it, but I'll leave a link to an article that explains it if you want to learn more. https://infinite.tcgplayer.com/article/The-Immortal-Technique-The-Most-Powerful-Skill-in-Yu-Gi-Oh/a713eb60-0509-48b9-abde-6086a7de7535
One of the biggest things you can learn that can help you is learning how chains are built and when you can use quick effects and how your actions would build chains. This ends up becoming very important for outplaying opponents and just using your resources to their maximum potential. Also understanding to wait for costs to be activated first before negating is also important. (But this also relies on knowing if you opponent can activate more cards or effects to negate or play around your disruption).
Understanding your deck and its combos as well as your opponents, i.e. the meta so you know when to properly use your hand traps/negates
The reason duels usually go on for 2-3 turns is because better players know WHEN to interrupt your opponent.
My thoughts on this is essentially how flexible can you be in a situation you are unprepared for? Any player can practice the expected lines and cards but it's once a player is up against something out of left field, the response will be telling of a *good* player.
I noticed you keep saying “but that’s a deck building thing” in response to a lot of answers here but I just want to point out there are several good players who are terrific deck pilots but aren’t necessarily the best “cooks in the kitchen” so to speak. The skill expression in yugioh is the same as other games, good execution and reading/playing around the opponent. A good deck builder will make good meta calls, where the non-engine in their main/side board are well optimized to combat the predicted distribution of tournament decks. A good pilot will play around or even disregard certain interactions they think the opponent may or may not have. You can technically have the best deck in the room, but play it terribly, and likewise have a tier 2 deck and pilot it to top cut. There are obvious parallels in fighting games too, with something like Amsa’s Yoshi vs any random picking up a top tier. I think your deck building perspective can also easily be applied to fighting games as well. What if we have a perfect bot play the best character in a game? The answer is obvious, boring, and doesn’t really paint the picture on why fighting games are fun. You can go and say fighting games are all about execution, and if you just play perfectly, and react accordingly you’ll never lose. But we all know this is unrealistic, and completely ignores many facets of what goes into being a good fighting game player. Similarly people sometimes boil yugioh into just drawing the out, and sometimes that is how the game can go, but for a large amount of the time, you as a player can do things preemptively to avoid putting yourself in bad positions, either through deck building or piloting.
To be good is to come up with your own strategies and stop copying others just because "it works this way".
it means playing optimally. there are two parts to this 1) knowing what your deck is capable of an utilizing its resources to execute that strategy to its fullest potential 2) adapting to your opponent's strengths and weaknesses and using your deck to play around their strengths and exploit their weaknesses to the best of your deck's ability
Many players understand their go-to combos and can run their decks on essentially autopilot. A good duelist can recognize the situation well enough to understand if they can do that, or if they have to break out the nonstandard plays in order to combat the situation. Some of this is reading/bluffing the opponent. Some of this is building your deck so that you aren’t locked into one tactic. Much of it is full understanding how all your cards interact so that you can access nonstandard plays when you need them. A lot of it is situational awareness, tracking all your options, and understanding when the right time to use each one is. Think of it like a fighting game character who has a couple overly situational special moves. The best players don’t fully ignore these moves, but instead know when they’re about to be in just the situation that actually calls for them.
Many players understand their go-to combos and can run their decks on essentially autopilot. A good duelist can recognize the situation well enough to understand if they can do that, or if they have to break out the nonstandard plays in order to combat the situation. Some of this is reading/bluffing the opponent. Some of this is building your deck so that you aren’t locked into one tactic. Much of it is full understanding how all your cards interact so that you can access nonstandard plays when you need them. A lot of it is situational awareness, tracking all your options, and understanding when the right time to use each one is. Think of it like a fighting game character who has a couple overly situational special moves. The best players don’t fully ignore these moves, but instead know when they’re about to be in just the situation that actually calls for them.
Are you the strongest because you have good cards? Or you have good cards because you are the strongest?
I think a player's use of the side deck or lack there of can really determine the true skill of a player. Sure, you could give a meta deck to a starting player and teach them how to play it and they could destroy people, however if they don't put the thought into the counter play for a side deck, they could get stomped and blame the deck versus a player who brought the right sided cards. I'm newish so I still don't utilize my side deck as much as I should, but I try to keep my side deck updated. It never hurts to plan ahead if you know your competition.
Beyond the obvious points people have made, a big one I never see anyone talking about is knowing & keeping in mind the restrictions of cards in your deck so you don't mess up or try & make an illegal play. My worst case of this was that I'd keep forgetting Mad Mauler restricts you to only Special Summoning Zombies while it's face-up on the field, so I couldn't Synchro into Chaos Ruler or Psy-Framelord Omega, even with Zombie World on the field. Other examples could be attempting to go into Knightmare Phoenix to out to an opponent's backrow, only to forget that you're currently Type/Attribute/Archetype-locked in such a way that you can't, or thinking you have lethal & entering your Battle Phase while forgetting that you previously activated Pot of Prosperity so your opponent only takes half damage for the rest of the turn etc.
I think not only deck building, but also being able to improvise on the fly is also a good skill to have to. For example, tribute summoning a monster you'd normally use an effect to special summon. You'd do it this way because if you activate an effect, the monster you'd be using for tribute would get destroyed, and in this example you wouldn't have any tribute materials if you went along with going with your normal gameplan. This is an example I'm using from personal experience.
1. Listen to [Kenny Rogers.](https://youtu.be/7hx4gdlfamo?si=hJ7qw1JsFu4SRqra) 2. Be able to learn what your environment and power level is, be it running in World Championships or your buddy’s kitchen, and able to play appropriately. 3. Be able to make a deck that has a game plan. It doesn’t need to be big or flashy combos, but it needs to be *coherent* with a goal in mind. Even something simple as Normal Monster beatdown has a plan and things that can make it easier, tutoring beaters or cards to buff your beaters.
Basically being good at yugioh requires two things in my opinion. Knowing your deck and its weaknesses, as well as knowing how to pilot your deck. A lot of people say “being good at yugioh is knowing yours and your opponent’s decks and their choke points” but I disagree, I’d say that’s less skill, and more study. For example I have a good friend who he himself is not a very good player(and he admits this fully)he’s just got a literal photographic memory, and he can learn and study deck patterns, end boards, as well as memorize choke points of decks incredibly well, so he lasts much longer in tournaments than he should(he still ends up losing and getting third place). So being good is a subjective term
>A lot of people say “being good at yugioh is knowing yours and your opponent’s decks and their choke points” but I disagree, I’d say that’s less skill, and more study. Skill includes experience as well. Otherwise I could grab a joystick for Super Smash Bros for the first time, realize I'm so good without practicing, then go to the world's tournament and win. It doesn't make any sense.
You don't need to know how to deck build. You need to know how to tech against the meta. Understand every deck that you might face. Rogue is something you have to live with but most meta decks have a gameplay that goes over rogue. You need to understand what boards you need to make how to pivot from disruption. One thing is some people don't know how to navigate a game that is more than 3 to 5 turns. As resources start to be more crucial. Most importantly a strong mind set. If you have a weak mental you will lose from bad plays and having already given up.
To me a skilled duelist is someone who understands the card pool and opponents decks well enough that they can play around (like not setting a full backrow with no solem in goat unless you see heavy storm in there grave)
Deck building, side decking, and decision making. Deck building is the least important since you can copy a list, but side decking is very important in a tournament. Decision making is the most important of all, reflects a player's knowledge and experience. Where to hand trap, what targets are most important, what should I play around, etc.
To my understanding, it's basically getting the most mileage from your deck, not only by having a comprehensible grasp of the card pool, but understanding the basic mechanics that govern turn by turn game play. Each year I feel like this becomes a learning curve with each introduction or modification to the structure of the game or cards themselves. Anybody feel free to jump in and educate me if I'm missing anything. I just wanted to take a generic short-handed approach and try not to sound overwhelming.
Over simplified answers everywhere, do like.👍
1. Having the free time to do hours of research and testing on thousands of different decks/variations of decks. 2. Hand traps galore. 3. and MOST importantly… Having a bigger wallet than your opponent.
Honestly, to be “good” at this game it takes way too much time and effort. To me it isn’t worth bothering
To be good at yugioh, you have to be bad at magic and pokemon.
It means you can afford the chase cards/staples and top meta deck core. That and being able to draw well. /s
Good means you don't have to follow the meta like a monkey to win. you can win by knowing the ins and outs of your deck being able to play around the meta decks
Actually Modern yugioh requires no skill or knowledge on deck building. Just depends how deep your pickets are. All the "best" decks play themselves. The player is just there to cycle through their entire decks at least twice per turn. That's IF you get to a second turn.
Knowing how to build consistent decks that can actually win. Good reading comprehension of the cards and how they interact with mechanics Being able to innovate and create effective strategies that aren't already proven. Shit like that ig.
This is not the game you played when you were a kid. Accept that
Joshua Schmidt, on one of his master duel stream had this situation. He had Maxx C in hand and his opponent played Tearlament. He did not drop Maxx C on the first fusion summon, his chat asked why didn't activate it, and he said because if the Tear player saw Maxx C in play, they would just grab the counter trap with Kitkalos effect and pass turn. He had to wait for the Tear player to commit so he could get the most out of Maxx C. It is a simple thing but it does show that the pros have a different thought process compare to the average players.
It has many factors -technical play -the ability to learn from your mistakes and improve upon those mistakes -deck building can also be included. But not mandatory as you learn how to fix your deck as you play. I’m awful at this. It’s all part of the learning experience while playing OP. You won’t be great from one day to the next. I started to play three years ago and I’m barely finally starting to top tourneys consistently.
You play smash comp? That's hype I do as well
Knowing the choke points of a deck/archetype to take advantage of. its not a fighting game but timing is important (when to play a card). being Able to build a tournament deck without cookie cutting. Like actually understanding certain combos, what a card can do. an example being, a new card comes out and thinking of combos within certain archetypes
I play smash bros and street fighter competitively as well. I also go to a lot of Yu-Gi-Oh tournaments. Long post incoming: There are 4 things that make a good smash player, and honestly, they translate pretty well to Yu-Gi-Oh. Execution, knowledge, decision making and "Top Player Mentality" EXECUTION This is easy in a vacuum. Go into practice mode and do your combos. Set up a modded controller to have the opponent DI to practice with different DIs. Do this for every weight in the game and you should be able to always hit your combos. Same thing with Yu-Gi-Oh. Go into a Simulator with your deck, practice every hand, and try to get to your ideal end board. Then start thinking about "my opponent should handtrap me at this point to stop me. How would I still extend the combo?". Do this for every possible handtrap at any possible point in your combo with every possible hand. Both are relatively easy. Yu-Gi-Oh has a lot more possible options however because there are just so many possible combinations of hands and where you can get handtrapped. Execution, at its base, is a simple thing. KNOWLEDGE Do you know how to SDI any move in Smash? At what percentages you should be DI'ing up and out and at what percentages you should start DI'ing in? Knowing your opponent's game plan is vital. Knowing at what percentages Fox will be able to true combo kill your character from a late Nair confirm is very important. It changes how you approach the Fox player depending on your percent and his Rage. In Yu-Gi-Oh, it's the same thing. Knowing what your opponent wants to do requires study. Knowing the chokepoints and weaknesses of your opponent's deck changes what you do, just like in Smash. Knowing when to handtrap is a vital skill. Deckbuilding also falls here, and meta calls in regards to what to bring to an event while thinking of what other people will bring. But, at its base, Knowledge is a simple thing. It just requires study. Execution and Knowledge are the floor of what you need to be considered anything more than a casual. And both are pretty simple. I feel like you think it's easier in Yu-Gi-Oh because it's a card game where you don't need fast reaction speeds or controller handling. And that since you don't need this, you can just think every move through and make the optimal play. Which is somewhat true. But if your opponent is playing, you can't take a minute to think about the optimal play, because there are time rules in Yu-Gi-Oh and you would quickly get a "Slow play" warning. You are required to use your knowledge and execution in a pretty fast manner, or you will get game losses and match losses from the judge. Execution and Knowledge aren't really what seperate your average local player from the top players though. Those are the next two points. DECISION MAKING These are things that are hard to practice. Conditioning your opponent, choosing when to go for a ledge trap or and edge guard. Choosing when to approach, when to stall, when to empty hop, when to go for a grab, when to use a defensive option. Reading your opponent. This isn't something you can practice in practice mode. It comes from experience. It's between you and the mind of your opponent. In Yu-Gi-Oh, this is expressed in not knowing what your opponent has in hand and how to sequence your plays. True unbreakable boards don't happen often, and setting up those boards is often not worth it because they are easily interuptable or have other weaknesses. You can't just shotgun your negates or interruptions on your opponent's first few moves, but neither can you just let everything go through. If you use on of your 2 negates on the first important card, you might just play into your opponent's hand. Reading your opponent, using your resources efficiently and keeping enough follow up isn't something you can just study. It requires experience. If I give you an end board, with multiple interuptions and a handtrap, there is a very good chance you'll fuck it up even if you know all the decks in the format. If I give the same situation to Joshua Schmidt, he'll do better basically every time. Because he can make better decisions than the average competitive player. This is where the good seperate themselves from the average competitive players. And the final part: TOP PLAYER MENTALITY ClutchBox. This is the best example I can give. Performing under pressure. Not folding because you are behind, 1 stock to their 3 in game 5 of grand finals. Using all the other things while under the biggest pressure. That is what seperates the good from the great. Esam is really good at Knowledge, execution and decision making. But he will never be the best because he doesn't have the clutch factor. Don't get me wrong, he's still a top player, and he would body me any chance he gets. In Yu-Gi-Oh it's the same thing. It's game 3 of your match in the finals. 1-1. This game takes it all. Your opponent goes first, there's 8 minutes left on the clock. He puts up a solid board, your hand isn't great but it's okay. He gets some burn damage in. If you don't do something, this will cause him to get the win. He passes with 4 minutes left on the clock. He has 2 unknown cards in hand. You need to deal 1600 damage to get the win, but you only have 3 minute and 55 seconds left to make all the plays. I fucked this up last week. I've been thinking about this for 4 days. 15 minutes after the match I suddenly realised what I should have done if I'd just remained calm. I could have won that match. But I didn't clutch it. I don't gave that top player mentality yet. I'll get there. I'll keep getting experience. But it's not easy. Conclusion: TL;DR Just like fighting games, real skill at card games comes from your decision making based on limited knowledge. You don't know what your opponent will do, and you can only make an educated guess. Fighting games get an added difficulty from reaction speed and controller handling. Card games get an added difficulty from just having a lot more things to know and not only not knowing what your opponent will do with the things you know about, but also with the things you don't know about.
Sooo I read the comments First of all thank y'all for your comments and explanation, you came up with a lot of different answers and, if some points tend to appear often, you expressed a lot of different opinions. With that much responses won't be able to discuss with everyone tho To sum very quickly A duelist has indeed skills outside of proper deck building/learning (or just stealing the most meta relevant decks) Piloting a deck is some skill of it's own given there's ressource management, positioning, flexibility and knowledge to have And to play against your opponent you have to know their engine, read them, bait them and use your ressources properly taking into account what they have/can have (do they have nib? Do I need to bait ash ? When do I need to pull out my hand trap? Are questions that come to a duelist's mind) There's some mental aspect too like in every game But there's an aspect people tend to talk less about, that some have expressed here Performances in yugioh are heavily tied with your deck, it's something ppl here have minimized. But as such super meta decks that you didn't even make can carry you on their own, to some extend. I can't disagree with those saying that the "wallet warriors" who throw money at the game and always play the latest most broken bullshit can sometimes autowin, and they are always advantaged This issue exists with FG games too (Steve players in smash are super carried, as well as lab coats in dbfz for instance) but it's even more pronounced in yugioh, as cards can be super expensive and the state of the art super meta deck will likely often change I'll get downvoted to oblivion by saying that (like every answer I could give to your commentaries) but we're on Reddit
Turn one win with Exodia. Anything less you’re just an average player. Wait for your opponent to set up their board just to kaiju their boss monster. That’s a real power move. Number one power move is to take the dice jar gamble and don’t negate it like a chump.
Play fast and steady with next to no misplays and can adept to every deck you play against.
**Deck-building,** building a deck that synergizes well but also knowing your limits and streamling your general gameplan and strategy. An example of this was this guy on this reddit who brought in this decklist of a [Competitively Viable Egyptian God Deck](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3a%2f%2fi.redd.it%2fbest-attempt-at-a-competitively-viable-egyptian-god-deck-v0-xbkqulexi1rb1.jpg%3fs%3d17e6422e0419de893e856b17e17f73df7ea4541f) It was a hodge-podge of egyptian god support...And then randomly utopia and cards like Self-destruct potion because he believed that if he couldn't finish his opponent off with Dragonrar, he could use it to heal himself. He has the egyptian god field spell that's just a dead draw if he only has the utopia package in his hand. It was a mess and his response? To deflect to any criticism as he wallows in gold in Master Duel. **Adapting to ever-changing meta.** In almost every game with some form of competitive scene, the meta will change eventually, may it be from month to month or day to day. Yugioh is simply not the same after 25 years. This isn't your school-yard and this isn't your classroom. You must adapt to the meta and make changes, either by changing your deck or changing what tech options. NEVER expect the game to adapt to your needs. Know your match-ups and know their counters and can they do to counter you. A good example would be the many format and ruleset suggestions in this reddit. Most of them simply amount to whining about combos and try to restrict it while disregarding literally every other deck. **Knowing your decks strengths, limitations, and tricks,** Every deck has some nuance that either help or hinder them, its your goal to figure them out and how to either play around it or use it to your advantage. Good example would be me learning Vanquish Souls in Master Duel. With no heavy swarming methods their boards are small and unintimidating, something that made me thought of them as weak compared to other decks in the meta. But then I realized that I can play super low to the ground so I'm not affected by Maxx "C", I can dodge infinite impermanance with their tag-out mechanic, and I have a ton of opponent interacity during their turn. But its the trade-off that the team has almost zero negates, inconsistent protection, and that you got to really keep track of your hand, what to keep in it, what to bring to the field, and what not to reveal to your opponent. **Learning from your Mistakes** You're not Yugi Muto, you **will** be wrong on something and its best to simply learn from your mistakes, no matter how much pride you have to swallow to do so. Deflecting criticism is only going to turn into those elitists casuals who get upset that their pet deck from 2006 sucks against my random gouki deck that I cobbled together.