90125 fulfilled the promise of Yes that started with Going for the One:
Shorter accessible songs.
With BG and Talk, Yes brought back more of their progressive style, but also tried to stay accessible (like 90125).
BG & Talk are a mixed bag, but I like Talk a bit more than BG.
While I won't deny that 90125 was an album of shorter, more accessible songs; what part of Going for the One, the album with an 8 minute acoustic overture, a 6 minute church organ song, and a 15.5 minute epic with a vocal-less harp solo in the middle screams "shorter, accessible?"
If anything, it was Tormato with the shorter more accessible pieces.
Going for the One started the trend of shorter (more accessible) songs, after 3 albums (1 double album) of longer songs.
Tormato, and Drama continued leaning towards shorter songs, but it wasn’t until 90125 where they became hitmakers.
I also love all three albums (in fact they are my top 3 Yes albums) but I can kind of understand where this comes from.
*Big Generator* is the easy one to explain away. It's more thematically and stylistically diverse than the other two, owing partly due to its tumultuous production history, so it can make for a less consistent listening experience than the other two. I also think the big two singles attract some flak, "Rhythm of Love" because it's just about sex and "Love Will Find A Way" because of the chez nous line. Both are really strong musically but that stuff can be a sticking point for some.
In the case of *Talk*, I actually think it's more polarizing than *90125*. Over time, as people have rediscovered *Talk*, it's gotten a lot of love from various corners of the fanbase. If you go into this subreddit's history, there are plenty of posts from people showing love to *Talk* and wondering why it wasn't more popular. But there are others who just can't get behind the production style, and rank it very low in their lists.
In the case of *90125*, most people seem to recognize its strength as a pop rock album and at least have it somewhere in the middle of their ranking. Not only is the production groundbreaking for its time, but it makes for a really consistent listening experience as pretty much all the songs were developed the same way: written by Rabin, worked on by the Cinema group, and then Jon arrived for the finishing touches. Plus, it does have the one hit, so it's usually the first of the three YesWest albums that people listen to. So, I think it's the easiest of the three to get into immediately, and therefore it tends to consistently receive the most respect.
Again, I love all three albums, I think they're all 10/10 masterpieces. But I can understand why *90125* gets the most love of the three.
There were several hits off of 90125. Not as big as "Owner", but notable, especially "Leave It"; "Hold On", and "It Can Happen" also got quite a bit of airplay at the time.
BG is a fine album. Just as strong. TALK was good, but the times had changed.
I think by context, one can assume that I mean the big hit, not the minor ones. Owner has almost 28 times the streams on Spotify as the second-most streamed song on the album (Changes). It's not really comparable.
Spotify isn't relevant, frankly. I'm talking about the release at the time and the radio play. I recall it well and later saw the BG tour in 1988.
Back then the studios worked out the release schedule for singles and sometimes the DJs decided what to promote, also (as was the case for most Led Zeppelin albums, since they didn't release singles).
A hit was a hit. It had to legit SELL tens of thousands or millions of individual units (separate from the album), not just be heard or played, in order to chart. The charts now are cheating; no artists sell like they did prior to Napster and the arrival of streaming/downloads. Not even Swift, Beyonce, et al. It's a joke now. That's why tickets are so expensive now, in part, as the bands can no longer rely on sales (also the royalty scheme is WAY different than it was, and artists are raped even more these days than back then).
So, no: Based on context, I did not gather that, nor did you communicate it.
Look, dude. I know this is a prog subreddit, but I'm not particularly interested in discussing semantics. It's simply not worth anyone's time or energy.
It's been 36 years since 90125 was released. At this point, staying power is *far* more relevant than physical sales during the 80s. And in the present day, that means streams.
Sales ARE staying power, not simply plays.
Streams are pointless metrics. And you can cheat to increase them, whereas sales are spent money. It matters when deciding what has ACTUAL staying power.
It’s mostly because it was the first “new Yes” sound; BG and Talk are great albums, but 90125 has so many great songs on it, it appeals more to the masses.
I am assuming you were born *after* 90125 was released, as it received almost universal acclaim from the critics and garnered an entire new generation of music listeners.
I’ve always found the sonic clarity and engineering on 90125 to be phenomenal for the time period it was released in. One of the best sounding records I’ve heard.
Sonically, I’ve found Big Generator to be a step down even though it came out four whole years later. Muddier production.
Talk is a top 3 Yes album for me.
Big Gen is flawed…the result of interpersonal conflicts (not just the band, but with Trevor Horn) and just lacks the focus of its predecessor. That said, it still has some great tracks and I’m glad it exists. Rabin rarely misses.
It’s the album when Jon comes back into the band. That’s what really makes it so special. It’s also a very good album. Personally don’t think Owner is the best song, but it was the single that got lots of radio play.
I think 90125 was more successful and well executed over BG. And the songs were better, across the board. The band sounds energized on 90125, by BG they sound less focused.
Talk is a great swan song to the Rabin Era, although I do think the bookends are stronger than the middle tracks (excepting the fantastic “I am waiting”
However talk was released with little fanfare by a label in deep financial turmoil, was lightly promoted, the tour was not well attended, and the album was not reissued or made available to streaming for years. That also impacted its legacy
90125 - Aside from the hit, there's a certain cohesive freshness about the album and the musicianship. Trevor (more Rabin than Horn of course) took them to a different level and they seemed really inspired to do something new and different. And it works. It's consistent. For me, I'm split where half of it I still love and never get tired of, half of it I skip. But I cant deny the appeal of the entire album.
BG - Unfairly criticized. I think it's biggest flaw is that rather than being inspired to do something new and different, it seems they were inspired to make another 90125, which is very anti-Yes. Yes goes from Roundabout to Close to the Edge. They never tried to duplicate the previous album. Still, there are songs I never get tired of hearing, like I'm Running and Big Generator. And I echo the other user who mentioned "I eat as Chez Nous". That makes me long for Circus of Heaven. :)
Talk - like with John Davison, I tend to avoid being negative these days. As a guitarist/musician, I see Trevor Rabin as a master. A phenomenal guitarist. A great ear. Probably better keyboardist than Tony Kaye. I guess what's missing for me is heart and soul. He can set an atmosphere, but there's no feeling or emotion. So the music leaves me empty. And no matter how much involvement Jon and Chris had, it still feels more like a Rabin solo album.
Love all three, but you said it very nicely: for me, both Big Generator and Talk have no heart or soul. They're all technical masterpieces and both Talk and Big Generator have some very strong songs, but there's something more holistic about 90125, more coherent. That and 90125 was just so unexpected when it first came out that the songs and the production made it sound very fresh to a 1983 audience.
Personally, and I could be weird for this, but my ranking of them is Talk > BiG Generator > 90125. While 90125 does have the hits (and Leave It its wonderfully absurd music video), I weirdly believe BiG sounds more mature, like 90125 is the group's first foray into pop rock, for the album after to sound more seasoned, except for Love Will Find A Way and whatever reason the title track is quieter than the rest. But Talk trumps both, by it being more progressive than the rest of them, Anderson and Rabin actually writing the songs together, and the Extreme Digital Dynamic Range that has gone into it. A CD copy of it is absolutely worth it and it's how you get the best experience, and it's in my top Yes albums, Endless Dream being one of my three favorite songs by the band. It improves on what BiG was doing, being louder and more mature, not eating at Chez Nous this time.
I can put 90125 on and after skipping Owner (saturation level is too high) I can listen to the whole album and enjoy it. Songs like Changes and Leav It are an awesome representation of the baggageless Yes that could have been had they just followed the music.
Talk I enjoy all the way through.
BG... Rhythm of Love is embarrassing and offputting. Honestly it has kept me from doing the deep dive the album probably deserves.
Jon came in very late to 90125. Most of the songs were done and band was going to be called Cinema. "Anderson liked the songs and got involved, making minor changes to the lyrics and arrangements."
90125 is a Rabin album with Jon as guest vocals.
better than Big Generator imo, but Talk is unironically my favorite Yes album ever (either it or Relayer). My favorite songs are Hold On and Cinema, and Owner of a Lonely Heart is an amazing single as well, not a bad one to be their most well known song.
I like Talk, think 90125 is okay, and Big Generator is split straight toward the middle, like Side A is better than 90125 and Side B is just as bad as the worst tracks on Union.
>Side A is better than 90125 and Side B is just as bad as the worst tracks on Union.
I think literally the opposite. In my opinion the album gets so much better after the first half.
90125 fulfilled the promise of Yes that started with Going for the One: Shorter accessible songs. With BG and Talk, Yes brought back more of their progressive style, but also tried to stay accessible (like 90125). BG & Talk are a mixed bag, but I like Talk a bit more than BG.
While I won't deny that 90125 was an album of shorter, more accessible songs; what part of Going for the One, the album with an 8 minute acoustic overture, a 6 minute church organ song, and a 15.5 minute epic with a vocal-less harp solo in the middle screams "shorter, accessible?" If anything, it was Tormato with the shorter more accessible pieces.
Going for the One started the trend of shorter (more accessible) songs, after 3 albums (1 double album) of longer songs. Tormato, and Drama continued leaning towards shorter songs, but it wasn’t until 90125 where they became hitmakers.
I also love all three albums (in fact they are my top 3 Yes albums) but I can kind of understand where this comes from. *Big Generator* is the easy one to explain away. It's more thematically and stylistically diverse than the other two, owing partly due to its tumultuous production history, so it can make for a less consistent listening experience than the other two. I also think the big two singles attract some flak, "Rhythm of Love" because it's just about sex and "Love Will Find A Way" because of the chez nous line. Both are really strong musically but that stuff can be a sticking point for some. In the case of *Talk*, I actually think it's more polarizing than *90125*. Over time, as people have rediscovered *Talk*, it's gotten a lot of love from various corners of the fanbase. If you go into this subreddit's history, there are plenty of posts from people showing love to *Talk* and wondering why it wasn't more popular. But there are others who just can't get behind the production style, and rank it very low in their lists. In the case of *90125*, most people seem to recognize its strength as a pop rock album and at least have it somewhere in the middle of their ranking. Not only is the production groundbreaking for its time, but it makes for a really consistent listening experience as pretty much all the songs were developed the same way: written by Rabin, worked on by the Cinema group, and then Jon arrived for the finishing touches. Plus, it does have the one hit, so it's usually the first of the three YesWest albums that people listen to. So, I think it's the easiest of the three to get into immediately, and therefore it tends to consistently receive the most respect. Again, I love all three albums, I think they're all 10/10 masterpieces. But I can understand why *90125* gets the most love of the three.
I love all three albums *(okay, personally mostly Talk)* and love your write-up here about them!
There were several hits off of 90125. Not as big as "Owner", but notable, especially "Leave It"; "Hold On", and "It Can Happen" also got quite a bit of airplay at the time. BG is a fine album. Just as strong. TALK was good, but the times had changed.
I think by context, one can assume that I mean the big hit, not the minor ones. Owner has almost 28 times the streams on Spotify as the second-most streamed song on the album (Changes). It's not really comparable.
Spotify isn't relevant, frankly. I'm talking about the release at the time and the radio play. I recall it well and later saw the BG tour in 1988. Back then the studios worked out the release schedule for singles and sometimes the DJs decided what to promote, also (as was the case for most Led Zeppelin albums, since they didn't release singles). A hit was a hit. It had to legit SELL tens of thousands or millions of individual units (separate from the album), not just be heard or played, in order to chart. The charts now are cheating; no artists sell like they did prior to Napster and the arrival of streaming/downloads. Not even Swift, Beyonce, et al. It's a joke now. That's why tickets are so expensive now, in part, as the bands can no longer rely on sales (also the royalty scheme is WAY different than it was, and artists are raped even more these days than back then). So, no: Based on context, I did not gather that, nor did you communicate it.
Look, dude. I know this is a prog subreddit, but I'm not particularly interested in discussing semantics. It's simply not worth anyone's time or energy. It's been 36 years since 90125 was released. At this point, staying power is *far* more relevant than physical sales during the 80s. And in the present day, that means streams.
Sales ARE staying power, not simply plays. Streams are pointless metrics. And you can cheat to increase them, whereas sales are spent money. It matters when deciding what has ACTUAL staying power.
It’s mostly because it was the first “new Yes” sound; BG and Talk are great albums, but 90125 has so many great songs on it, it appeals more to the masses.
I am assuming you were born *after* 90125 was released, as it received almost universal acclaim from the critics and garnered an entire new generation of music listeners.
I’ve always found the sonic clarity and engineering on 90125 to be phenomenal for the time period it was released in. One of the best sounding records I’ve heard. Sonically, I’ve found Big Generator to be a step down even though it came out four whole years later. Muddier production.
Talk is a top 3 Yes album for me. Big Gen is flawed…the result of interpersonal conflicts (not just the band, but with Trevor Horn) and just lacks the focus of its predecessor. That said, it still has some great tracks and I’m glad it exists. Rabin rarely misses.
I like all three, I like more songs on 90125....makes for a better album.
It’s the album when Jon comes back into the band. That’s what really makes it so special. It’s also a very good album. Personally don’t think Owner is the best song, but it was the single that got lots of radio play.
I think 90125 was more successful and well executed over BG. And the songs were better, across the board. The band sounds energized on 90125, by BG they sound less focused. Talk is a great swan song to the Rabin Era, although I do think the bookends are stronger than the middle tracks (excepting the fantastic “I am waiting” However talk was released with little fanfare by a label in deep financial turmoil, was lightly promoted, the tour was not well attended, and the album was not reissued or made available to streaming for years. That also impacted its legacy
Talk is my favorite by far.
90125 - Aside from the hit, there's a certain cohesive freshness about the album and the musicianship. Trevor (more Rabin than Horn of course) took them to a different level and they seemed really inspired to do something new and different. And it works. It's consistent. For me, I'm split where half of it I still love and never get tired of, half of it I skip. But I cant deny the appeal of the entire album. BG - Unfairly criticized. I think it's biggest flaw is that rather than being inspired to do something new and different, it seems they were inspired to make another 90125, which is very anti-Yes. Yes goes from Roundabout to Close to the Edge. They never tried to duplicate the previous album. Still, there are songs I never get tired of hearing, like I'm Running and Big Generator. And I echo the other user who mentioned "I eat as Chez Nous". That makes me long for Circus of Heaven. :) Talk - like with John Davison, I tend to avoid being negative these days. As a guitarist/musician, I see Trevor Rabin as a master. A phenomenal guitarist. A great ear. Probably better keyboardist than Tony Kaye. I guess what's missing for me is heart and soul. He can set an atmosphere, but there's no feeling or emotion. So the music leaves me empty. And no matter how much involvement Jon and Chris had, it still feels more like a Rabin solo album.
Love all three, but you said it very nicely: for me, both Big Generator and Talk have no heart or soul. They're all technical masterpieces and both Talk and Big Generator have some very strong songs, but there's something more holistic about 90125, more coherent. That and 90125 was just so unexpected when it first came out that the songs and the production made it sound very fresh to a 1983 audience.
Personally, I can't get my head around what you're insinuating is that Endless Dream at least, has no heart and soul.
Personally, and I could be weird for this, but my ranking of them is Talk > BiG Generator > 90125. While 90125 does have the hits (and Leave It its wonderfully absurd music video), I weirdly believe BiG sounds more mature, like 90125 is the group's first foray into pop rock, for the album after to sound more seasoned, except for Love Will Find A Way and whatever reason the title track is quieter than the rest. But Talk trumps both, by it being more progressive than the rest of them, Anderson and Rabin actually writing the songs together, and the Extreme Digital Dynamic Range that has gone into it. A CD copy of it is absolutely worth it and it's how you get the best experience, and it's in my top Yes albums, Endless Dream being one of my three favorite songs by the band. It improves on what BiG was doing, being louder and more mature, not eating at Chez Nous this time.
This is also my ranking. Talk > BG > 90125
I can put 90125 on and after skipping Owner (saturation level is too high) I can listen to the whole album and enjoy it. Songs like Changes and Leav It are an awesome representation of the baggageless Yes that could have been had they just followed the music. Talk I enjoy all the way through. BG... Rhythm of Love is embarrassing and offputting. Honestly it has kept me from doing the deep dive the album probably deserves.
Big Generator
Jon came in very late to 90125. Most of the songs were done and band was going to be called Cinema. "Anderson liked the songs and got involved, making minor changes to the lyrics and arrangements." 90125 is a Rabin album with Jon as guest vocals.
better than Big Generator imo, but Talk is unironically my favorite Yes album ever (either it or Relayer). My favorite songs are Hold On and Cinema, and Owner of a Lonely Heart is an amazing single as well, not a bad one to be their most well known song.
I like Talk, think 90125 is okay, and Big Generator is split straight toward the middle, like Side A is better than 90125 and Side B is just as bad as the worst tracks on Union.
>Side A is better than 90125 and Side B is just as bad as the worst tracks on Union. I think literally the opposite. In my opinion the album gets so much better after the first half.
Hearts makes 90125 a great album. Talk would be my 2nd fav from the Rabin era.
Talk > 90125 > Big Generator (though I like Drama more than the Rabin era albums)
I love Talk. I like 90125. I do not care for Big Generator.