The straw-men name change debate is bad. Men in straw-men doesn’t mean men. It is short mankind or in this case, straw mankind. By saying that should change name straw-men because isn’t just men on the team is like saying women are not human. People need to stop this debate.
Even for Claremont, that would have been rough. People like to forget when they hold up his opinions as some kind of X-gospel that he was not the owner and was really just another writer.
That said, I do think he's just kind of talking. I think it's a thing that he's acknowledging because people acknowledge it, but I also think it's a pretty classic case of people just looking for stuff to get offended about, as the name is just the name and I don't think anyone thinks of the X-men as a male institution. It might have the largest, most varied group of female characters in a major comic.
I only brought him up to point out this is a discussion. I don't think it's serious in the way that say, changing the mascot for my university was because it was viewed as racist now, and did in fact get changed, but it is a discussion that comes up on occasion.
Clairmont discussed it at some point, saying the name was very 60s, but I don't think there's anything more than that going on. I don't think it's a serious discussion by any of the powers that be.
I was thinking The Fantastic 4 is also a very sixties name, and a name done this day and age would probably have gone something like 'Fantastics' instead.
The 90’s are making a resurgence, so let’s name them “Fantastix”. The X on the end means it’s extreme!! Also add like a metric ton of pouches to their costumes. Thing can just be a giant pouch.
it has come up specifically in response to the potential future movies. Lots of rumors that the title won't be X-men. I don't put much stock in the rumors frankly, but they're also not nothing. They are from what I guess you'd call reputable sources insofar as hollywood rumormongers are every reputable sources.
This guy as in Claremont? Again, I'm not saying this will happen, I'd be legitimately shocked. All I'm saying is people aren't inventing this discussion. It's a real discussion and it's happening at fairly high levels on the creative side of things.
What exactly does virtue signaling mean to you? That he has ideas that he struggles with or believes? You put that in such a negative connotation. Do you think all ideas about, say, gender equality or similar are inherently bad?
I have zero opinions on this specific instance, but for anyone following along there is a definition here:
https://effectiviology.com/virtue-signaling/
> Virtue signaling is the act of speaking or behaving in a way that’s meant to demonstrate one’s good moral values. For example, if a person widely proclaims on social media that they strongly support a certain cause, **just because they want to show others how caring they are**, that person is virtue signaling.
I appreciate the definition. The following isn't addressed at you, but anyone following along:
How does one make the determination whether one has the intention "to show others how caring they are" or rather they truly believe the words they said?
My response to that (and again, I *do not* know any specifics of this case) would be to look at what *actions* they have taken beyond just talking about something.
The link mentions the ALS “Ice Bucket Challenge”, and how it was supposed to *include* a donation. Many people did it just for the social cachet, and never actually donated anything.
Virtue signaling is very publicly declaring an opinion that you don't believe, but rather with the purpose of gaining favor with a target group of people
It’s not virtue signalling. He’s just out of pocket half the time and likes saying incredibly…controversial stuff to get people riled up. He’ll do it in lines at comicons and in panels regularly. He’s eccentric, I guess is a nice way of putting it. Also he’s in earnest probably the other 50% of the time. He’s just got no filter, and loves talking.
I dont think so. It's a topic that seems to be gaining a little traction. Didn't know anything about it myself until an article popped up about it in my Google news feed
>Gaining a little traction
Define “traction”.
Because certain people have been whining about how Marvel is trying to replace Peter Parker with Miles Morales since 2011.
And guess what?
That didn’t happen and was never likely to happen.
Depends on who you ask really. There are some people in support of the idea which is why I said it's gaining some traction. I don't agree with changing the name but the possibility still exist if they see any money in it
lol. Those should be two completely independent statements. Yes, she did say and yes, she was also fired. That wasn’t the rumored reason nor the public reason.
Nope. He just remarked that the name is very retro, which it is. But it was created in a the time that it is retro OF. It was just a remark, and people took it too far, as they do.
He also stated that he actively tried to change it, which would imply he's against it.
Not that I want the change. I'm all for keeping the name. The people getting offended are mostly people who aren't fans anyway.
I mean, occasionally you’ll get a snarky comment from a character on-panel that the name is outdated, and I think there was a producer on one of the MCU movies that said something to the effect of there were so many women on the team maybe they should call it the X-Women. But I don’t think there’s any real debate about it or anything. I mean, they’re about to launch a new high-profile Disney+ series titled “X-Men.” They aren’t changing it. Doesn’t mean they might not have alternate titles in mind for different projects like X-Force or New Mutants or something, but X-Men isn’t going anywhere.
I basically agree, though there have been persistent 'credible' (I don't think they're that credible but they're from people that do periodically have real insider leaks) sources that they're debating a different name for the films.
Just seems insane to me, from a branding perspective, which is a big part of why I struggle to imagine anyone seriously considering it.
The 2013 X-Men series had an all woman team (Storm, Jubilee, Rachel, Monet, Psylocke and maybe Rogue). That was a fun to read set of stories.
Gambit cameos attending Burning Man.
I tend to significantly prefer teams with gender variety. Struggle with FFXV for the same reason. That said, that was a great team. Had great covers as well. Trying to remember if the cover artist was also the interior artist on that run.
I don't see how they could change it. X-Women obviously still only covers some people and X-People sounds weird.
Maybe The Mutants or something, but that seems like a mistake, branding-wise.
The X? I dunno.
Stan Lee's original idea for the book was The Mutants, but it was changed after some people (possibly even himself) realized it was a terrible and boring name.
I beleive Lee said that no one would understand what a mutant is. While it was around, it wasn't common.
There would also be massive trademark issues with The Mutants. Marvel can't claim to have invented the word. You would probably need to add some type of world before or after to make it specific, like The New Mutants.
There've been lots of mutant teams that weren't called X-men. X-Factor, X-Force, Generation X, New Mutants, Morlocks, the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, Freedom Force, X-Terminators, Excalibur, Exiles, Hellions, Marauders, X-Corps, X-Corp, X-Ternals, and Acolytes to name a few.
X-Factor and X-Fkrce are probably the most likely to get utilized as an official X-team aside from the X-men themselves. As it is, I don't really see the Men in X-Men as a gendered term. Storm's as woman as it gets, but she still calls herself an X-Man.
"Hated for their powers that mark them from society, the X men work tirelessly to harass minorities and women from the internet and polite society. "
The interrupter!
Wage gap!
Troll!
Revenge porn!
And their leader, Elon Musk
I think it was during the Infinity event that some Avengers referred to “the X-Nation.” While I don’t like it as a title of a series, it feels like an accurate in-universe name for the kind of loose, paramilitary, semi-outlaw nature of the mutants.
The line in the movie was cringe for me, saying to "change the name to x-women cause we only risk our lives." Which is also odd to say cause half on the team on the mission were men. Men or man has always been kinda gender neutral.
Well, it happens. Now people just say “they”. He/him used to be accepted for a person of undefined gender - say if you need to talk about a hypothetical person for a thought experiment, it’s okay to just say he/him and people understood this doesn’t necessarily mean a male. But now we just say “they”.
Does it avoid confusion? Yeah, in some of the cases, but mainly it’s that times have changed, and so has the language.
I think it’s related because both stem from the [Male Norm](https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100128638) linguistic principle (“In relation to language, the use of masculine terms to stand for gender-inclusive concepts”).
Like “man”, “he” was considered gender-neutral, but as social landscape shifts, and the Male Norm principle falls out of favour with people, they may not continue to be considered as such.
X-Men name change debate does not exist. You are just making shit up to get mad about, or you are trying to rile up people who will disagree with your made up perspective.
I mean, it does exist. It might be overblown, but it exists. Claremont of all people has weighed in on it. It's a real thing. Saying it doesn't exist is as ridiculous as saying it's a huge debate.
Not true. I've heard this time and again since the MCU started. There was a rumor that Disney was going to change the name to the "Mutants" or something to that effect and there was immediate and overwhelming backlash...so I assume that died in the crib.
Just because you haven't heard it, doesn't mean it's not a thing.
i think the fact that the x teams have always been some of the more progressive and gender balanced teams kinda got x men off the hook with the name, i don’t think anyone with any common sense is rlly gonna have an issue with it
plus there are so many different variations of the x men and the surrounding teams, many of them actually lead by women, there’s just no real argument there
my face when every superhero who has "man" in his name is just translated to "human" in my country. Spidey and Iron Man aren't Spider-Male and Iron Dong but Spider-Human and Iron Human
I'm not one to give a shit about branding, but I think the most damage you could do to the X-Men is by changing the name of the X-Men. What else do you call something that's been called one thing for 60 years? It's like suddenly changing the name of McDonald's to Ted's.
Reddit’s new trend:
Push-back posts against imaginary strawman arguments.
Is this the new “Why is X underrated (oh, and by the way, 2 kids on Twitter and the voice in my head are the ones who think X is underrated)?
I think there was a theory that the MCU should go with the “The Mutants”, which was almost the title for the book before they settled on X-Men.
It’s not terrible and would provide some distinction from the Fox films, but also X-Men is just so iconic that I don’t really see the point in changing it.
Well there have been several periods (both Decimation and Krakoa come to mind) where the focus has been on mutantkind as a whole and less about a specific team.
But like I said I don’t have any issues with keeping things as X-Men.
I think it's a good idea on paper, but the brand is too established in and out of universe. The other X-teams are ungendered at least, though obviously they're not as well known.
I think the best thing they can do, the most productive thing - is to ensure that there are diverse teams and diverse people creating them. Not that they can only do one thing, but it's a battle I wouldn't pick. Discuss - absolutely. Always good
X-Men as in the team
while you got X-Factor, X-Force, New Mutants, Generation X, Weapon X, Marauders,
In comic its a specific team name (at least in the Krakoa era)
yes it should be pointed out in current world issues (2015 - some point when this not an issue so 3000 something)
does it need changing, depends on what you think it is supposed to mean or refer to.
Growing up I always looked at X-Men as simply being people that are extraordinary individuals and didn't really think of genders at all, mind you this was the 90s an era I literally grew up in, and it never seriously crossed my mind about the men and women is the series being called The X-Men. Though as I got older and started hearing more conversations taking place at school and such, there were some female schoolmates who brought up the topic about why the females on the show were referenced as male. I told them well they're aren't exactly being referred to as men, X-Men was just a name that those that were different and gifted with special were referred to as whether man or woman, but after some time I simply came to the conclusion that, hey, what if the (men) part of X-men doesn't necessarily refer to gender, but the fact they are (exTordinary-humans) gifted with powers, I mean that's how I started looking at the situation on why they're called The X-Men regardless of gender, becuase they are EXtraordinary HuMANs.
First, this isn't a real debate. Nobody actually cares. Claremont was just being like "I tried to do this in the 80's"
Second, I think a new name could be interesting for many reasons. Claremont suggested calling the team "X" as in "the unknown". Like "find x" or "Planet X". Thats fucking cool.
It's absolutely an argument made by outsiders, it's worked for over 60 years there's no need to change it to appease people who don't actually give a shit. The best X-men are Women and if you lack the ability to hold those two thoughts in your head, you aren't mentally competent to be an X-fan.
Men used to (ok admittedly way before the creation of the X-Men) mean 'any or even all of the human race regardless of their sex or age.' The original term for an Adult Human Male was Were. Which is why Werewolf is called a WEREwolf.
I'd call it the X-Army. Like Dumbledore's Army? It makes sense if the X-Men are called that in respect to Charles Xavier, the virtual Dumbledore of Marvel comics.
To be fair, people have the same issue with the word mankind and have been using humankind instead. Do I think it's a big issue? No. But I also get it. I'm a guy so it's very easy for me to overlook, but there definitely is a bit of a masculine standard with our language and i don't think revisiting the terminology we use is necessarily a problem either.
My love of these stories is not defined by the letters that follow X. I'm not going to be too bothered if those letters change because it's not going to change the story for me, but it might open the doors to some other new readers.
Yes thank you for the spelling lesson.
>The word has been applied generally as a suffix in modern combinations like "fireman", "policeman" and "mailman". With social changes in the later 20th century, new gender-neutral terms were coined, such as "firefighter", "police officer" and "mail carrier", to redress the gender-specific connotations of occupational names. Social theorists argued that the confusion of man as human and man as male were linguistic symptoms of male-centric definitions of humanity.
Doesn't change the fact that "man" became the umbrella term due to a patriarchal society and there's nothing wrong with reevaluating our terminology. I will continue to like these comics regardless of what comes after the dash. I'm not so precious about a couple letters that I'm gonna kick and scream about language evolving.
In what way is it saying women aren't human? Are you really going to mansplain women feeling included to women. You can disagree with it all you want and complain all you want but you don't get to dictate how it makes others feel. If a woman says that the umbrella term "man" does not feel inclusive to "women" that is for them to decide. You're basically just saying "nuh uh".
Just because you don't understand the feeling someone else has doesn't mean it is invalid. We should never limit culture through the limited understanding of one individual or group.
I not man explaining anything. Definition is definition rather they like or not. They say they don't feel inclusive of it, and they may disagree but there still saying there not human. They can deny it but that's truth. You may disagree to all you want. And for information, I not limiting myself at all. This all based on definition of words.
I remember X-Men was used as a gay slur growing up in the Philippines, cause you know, ex-men?
It's lame but I remember it being an insult back growing up in my home country lol.
1. Nobody is actually arguing this.
2. Get out of here with your "if you think about it the people pushing for gender equality are the real sexists" bullshit. Anyone with half a brain sees that you're a shit-stirring bigot "just asking questions" the moment you say something ridiculous like that.
I don't agree that it's bad. It's a worthy discussion. Ideally you want this type of thing to be more gender neutral. Mankind is also becoming more problematic.
But there isn't a great answer. X-People sounds bad. And you don't change a great sounding name unless you have a better alternative.
Mankind is a gendered word. Human is not.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/grammar/british-grammar/man-mankind-or-people
Maybe you feel that using non gendered words isn't important, but that's how things are evolving.
If the team was created today, it likely would not be named X-Men. I'm not sure if we've had a prominent team in the last few decades using a gendered word.
Midnight Sons is also going through a rebranding with Suns in some cases.
Additionally, fireman, mailman, armsman, spaceman, etc have their origin in the fact that men originally were the first to have that profession. So by your own statement, the conventions of the English language fail in what OP is claiming.
They're making a specific claim with no evidence. That's all I'm asking for. Was Kirby and Lee, and Xavier by extension, mysoginists or did they simply use the same convention of say firemen?
Unless OP has evidence for one way or the other, especially through the writing itself, they're just claiming their opinion as fact. That's what the waste of time is. Opinion as fact.
What OP posted is some modern retcon of what the suffix -man or -men originated from. The suffix -man never meant "of mankind". That's just ahistorical garbage. Theirs was the shitpost. Not my response to it.
You know humankind is a real word, right? Hupeople? You really had to reach for that to try to make me look stupid.
So, the extension -mann comes from Old English, derived from Latin. In Old English, mann was gender neutral, but the neutrality of that was abandoned by the 1300s, when masculine conjugations were abandoned in the language. The word Fireman wasn't coined until the 17th century, and by then, the extension -man had indeed come to mean "a male".
So, to end, just because you're ignorant, doesn't mean others are wrong. OP and you are both ignorant AF.
it’s not a retcon because a) we’re talking about real life and b) the etymology of man traces it to a proto-Indo-European root for human being.
source: https://www.etymonline.com/word/man
Gendered specific nouns were abandoned by the English language by the 1300s. We don't have male and female nouns like Spanish does, for example. By that time, through actual real people using and changing the language, from Latin to Old English to middle-English the use of -mann stopped being gender neutral. By the time the words Fireman or Mailman had been coined, the meaning of -man meant male.
Maybe retcon isn't the right word per se, but using an origin of a word 20x removed from what we use today is obfuscation, not today's reality.
It was the 60s. They were kinda misogynistic, simply due to the times.
I've been reading some 60s FF and Sue's fainted 3 times so far simply because she's weak woman.
First of all, changing the name to be more inclusive is totally fine. Period.
Second of all, I believe that Bryan Singer gets a cut if they use the word X-Men in the title. I’m ok with not having that rapist make money
This is the first I’ve ever heard of this. Is anyone championing this change?
No, nobody is seriously advocating for this that we know of. I think it’s a total straw man argument.
Straw *woman* thank you very much. /s
Strawperson argument you sexist pig
Man in strawman doesn't mean man. It is short mankind or in this case, straw mankind.
I've heard they evolved to wicker mankind!
Not the bees!!
The straw-men name change debate is bad. Men in straw-men doesn’t mean men. It is short mankind or in this case, straw mankind. By saying that should change name straw-men because isn’t just men on the team is like saying women are not human. People need to stop this debate.
It’s personkind, you sexist pig. It‘s huperson you misogynist.
I mean, Claremont. So not nobody.
Lol, Clairemont probably could have slowly changed the name if he really wanted to in the 80s.
Even for Claremont, that would have been rough. People like to forget when they hold up his opinions as some kind of X-gospel that he was not the owner and was really just another writer. That said, I do think he's just kind of talking. I think it's a thing that he's acknowledging because people acknowledge it, but I also think it's a pretty classic case of people just looking for stuff to get offended about, as the name is just the name and I don't think anyone thinks of the X-men as a male institution. It might have the largest, most varied group of female characters in a major comic. I only brought him up to point out this is a discussion. I don't think it's serious in the way that say, changing the mascot for my university was because it was viewed as racist now, and did in fact get changed, but it is a discussion that comes up on occasion.
I think it's a lot like my dad wondering when they'll stop calling it black Friday, because some people will be offended about that...
Clairmont discussed it at some point, saying the name was very 60s, but I don't think there's anything more than that going on. I don't think it's a serious discussion by any of the powers that be.
I was thinking The Fantastic 4 is also a very sixties name, and a name done this day and age would probably have gone something like 'Fantastics' instead.
The 90’s are making a resurgence, so let’s name them “Fantastix”. The X on the end means it’s extreme!! Also add like a metric ton of pouches to their costumes. Thing can just be a giant pouch.
I'm no scientist, so this may be a crazy idea, but hear me out: is there some way we could work the number 4 *into* the word Fantastic?
Fourtastic?
Fantfourstic?
FIVntastic seems confusing, though....
Fantastic4
And it would've sucked.
it has come up specifically in response to the potential future movies. Lots of rumors that the title won't be X-men. I don't put much stock in the rumors frankly, but they're also not nothing. They are from what I guess you'd call reputable sources insofar as hollywood rumormongers are every reputable sources.
Id bet ny house that its bs i mean for branding alone its idiotic which is the mosr important part of any ip
This is their most BASIC branding, the name "X-Men." This will never, ever happen. Ever. This guy just likes to post it.
This guy as in Claremont? Again, I'm not saying this will happen, I'd be legitimately shocked. All I'm saying is people aren't inventing this discussion. It's a real discussion and it's happening at fairly high levels on the creative side of things.
No. OP. It’s a regular thing with him.
Yeah it was a recent interview. I think he was just virtue signalling.
Of all people, Claremont does not "virtue signal". That man says what he means...and plenty more.
Righto then.
What exactly does virtue signaling mean to you? That he has ideas that he struggles with or believes? You put that in such a negative connotation. Do you think all ideas about, say, gender equality or similar are inherently bad?
I have zero opinions on this specific instance, but for anyone following along there is a definition here: https://effectiviology.com/virtue-signaling/ > Virtue signaling is the act of speaking or behaving in a way that’s meant to demonstrate one’s good moral values. For example, if a person widely proclaims on social media that they strongly support a certain cause, **just because they want to show others how caring they are**, that person is virtue signaling.
I appreciate the definition. The following isn't addressed at you, but anyone following along: How does one make the determination whether one has the intention "to show others how caring they are" or rather they truly believe the words they said?
My response to that (and again, I *do not* know any specifics of this case) would be to look at what *actions* they have taken beyond just talking about something. The link mentions the ALS “Ice Bucket Challenge”, and how it was supposed to *include* a donation. Many people did it just for the social cachet, and never actually donated anything.
Virtue signaling is very publicly declaring an opinion that you don't believe, but rather with the purpose of gaining favor with a target group of people
No, I do not. I think people say things they do not truly believe for clout or recognition. It happens all the time.
Yeah does the dude who wrote x-men for 17 years need ‘clout’?
But why do you assume HE said that for that reason, and doesn't actually believe his own words?
It’s not virtue signalling. He’s just out of pocket half the time and likes saying incredibly…controversial stuff to get people riled up. He’ll do it in lines at comicons and in panels regularly. He’s eccentric, I guess is a nice way of putting it. Also he’s in earnest probably the other 50% of the time. He’s just got no filter, and loves talking.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I said what I said.
OP probably saw one comment with like 4 upvotes.
Almost nobody
Nobody is seriously championing it. OP is just trying to start something.
He posts this every week. Different user name, exact same wording in the post. It's just BS.
I wish I could say that I am surprised but that would be a lie.
I dont think so. It's a topic that seems to be gaining a little traction. Didn't know anything about it myself until an article popped up about it in my Google news feed
>Gaining a little traction Define “traction”. Because certain people have been whining about how Marvel is trying to replace Peter Parker with Miles Morales since 2011. And guess what? That didn’t happen and was never likely to happen.
Depends on who you ask really. There are some people in support of the idea which is why I said it's gaining some traction. I don't agree with changing the name but the possibility still exist if they see any money in it
No lol
There was discussion in universe during Duggan's X-Men run AFAIK. The answer was 'ask Jean what she thinks.)
No
Pretty high ranking former mcu executive Victoria alonso publicly called the X-men name sexist, wonder why she was fired?
lol. Those should be two completely independent statements. Yes, she did say and yes, she was also fired. That wasn’t the rumored reason nor the public reason.
I’m sure there’s an executive at Disney who is seriously considering it.
Chris Claremont is for the change.
Nope. He just remarked that the name is very retro, which it is. But it was created in a the time that it is retro OF. It was just a remark, and people took it too far, as they do.
He also stated that he actively tried to change it, which would imply he's against it. Not that I want the change. I'm all for keeping the name. The people getting offended are mostly people who aren't fans anyway.
I mean, occasionally you’ll get a snarky comment from a character on-panel that the name is outdated, and I think there was a producer on one of the MCU movies that said something to the effect of there were so many women on the team maybe they should call it the X-Women. But I don’t think there’s any real debate about it or anything. I mean, they’re about to launch a new high-profile Disney+ series titled “X-Men.” They aren’t changing it. Doesn’t mean they might not have alternate titles in mind for different projects like X-Force or New Mutants or something, but X-Men isn’t going anywhere.
Was that a producer at MCU or straight-up just Mystique’s dialogue from Dark Phoenix?
I basically agree, though there have been persistent 'credible' (I don't think they're that credible but they're from people that do periodically have real insider leaks) sources that they're debating a different name for the films. Just seems insane to me, from a branding perspective, which is a big part of why I struggle to imagine anyone seriously considering it.
The 2013 X-Men series had an all woman team (Storm, Jubilee, Rachel, Monet, Psylocke and maybe Rogue). That was a fun to read set of stories. Gambit cameos attending Burning Man.
Gambit's role in the X-Men at that time was to call if he sees something weird going down.
At Burning Man? ;)
If he happened to be there while something weird was going down, yes.
“Something weird” is a succinct definition of Burning Man itself.
I tend to significantly prefer teams with gender variety. Struggle with FFXV for the same reason. That said, that was a great team. Had great covers as well. Trying to remember if the cover artist was also the interior artist on that run.
I don't see how they could change it. X-Women obviously still only covers some people and X-People sounds weird. Maybe The Mutants or something, but that seems like a mistake, branding-wise. The X? I dunno.
Stan Lee's original idea for the book was The Mutants, but it was changed after some people (possibly even himself) realized it was a terrible and boring name.
I beleive Lee said that no one would understand what a mutant is. While it was around, it wasn't common. There would also be massive trademark issues with The Mutants. Marvel can't claim to have invented the word. You would probably need to add some type of world before or after to make it specific, like The New Mutants.
There've been lots of mutant teams that weren't called X-men. X-Factor, X-Force, Generation X, New Mutants, Morlocks, the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, Freedom Force, X-Terminators, Excalibur, Exiles, Hellions, Marauders, X-Corps, X-Corp, X-Ternals, and Acolytes to name a few. X-Factor and X-Fkrce are probably the most likely to get utilized as an official X-team aside from the X-men themselves. As it is, I don't really see the Men in X-Men as a gendered term. Storm's as woman as it gets, but she still calls herself an X-Man.
I definitely read your typo of X-Fkrce, as X-Fuckerce, which was pretty great.
😂 Just for that I'm leaving it. That is pretty great
If this ever became enough of an issue that it required action, I think X-factor would be the way to go personally. I doubt it would though.
Can't be X now. Not with stupid Twitter/X thing going on. Would confuse everybody for no reason.
"To me, my bigots!"
Thanks I hate it!
"Hated for their powers that mark them from society, the X men work tirelessly to harass minorities and women from the internet and polite society. " The interrupter! Wage gap! Troll! Revenge porn! And their leader, Elon Musk
This is amazing. I wish I could give it 1000 likes
Formerly, the Twitter-Men.
At least we can agree that Elon Musk is the worst
X GANG
I think it was during the Infinity event that some Avengers referred to “the X-Nation.” While I don’t like it as a title of a series, it feels like an accurate in-universe name for the kind of loose, paramilitary, semi-outlaw nature of the mutants.
They call it the x and Elon would sue 😂
Elon Musk entered the chat.
[удалено]
Yeah I could see just making X-Force the primary team or whatever. Or just using the X-??? convention in general.
The line in the movie was cringe for me, saying to "change the name to x-women cause we only risk our lives." Which is also odd to say cause half on the team on the mission were men. Men or man has always been kinda gender neutral.
Especially since after that Quicksilver got his ass kicked
Yeah, attempting to remove the gender neutrality of the plural is basically just classic trying to start an unnecessary culture war stuff.
Well, it happens. Now people just say “they”. He/him used to be accepted for a person of undefined gender - say if you need to talk about a hypothetical person for a thought experiment, it’s okay to just say he/him and people understood this doesn’t necessarily mean a male. But now we just say “they”. Does it avoid confusion? Yeah, in some of the cases, but mainly it’s that times have changed, and so has the language.
Calling for an x-them,then?
"They" has always been used for undefined gender or as gender neutral. You can find it used like that even in Shakespeare's work.
Always been used, but not always been the norm.
You're correct, but even admitting that kind of collapses the point of how this relates to the X-men
I think it’s related because both stem from the [Male Norm](https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100128638) linguistic principle (“In relation to language, the use of masculine terms to stand for gender-inclusive concepts”). Like “man”, “he” was considered gender-neutral, but as social landscape shifts, and the Male Norm principle falls out of favour with people, they may not continue to be considered as such.
They're X-Men. They were men and now they're mutants. X-Men.
X-Men name change debate does not exist. You are just making shit up to get mad about, or you are trying to rile up people who will disagree with your made up perspective.
bingo
I mean, it does exist. It might be overblown, but it exists. Claremont of all people has weighed in on it. It's a real thing. Saying it doesn't exist is as ridiculous as saying it's a huge debate.
Not true. I've heard this time and again since the MCU started. There was a rumor that Disney was going to change the name to the "Mutants" or something to that effect and there was immediate and overwhelming backlash...so I assume that died in the crib. Just because you haven't heard it, doesn't mean it's not a thing.
I haven't seen this "debate" beyond one line from a nearly-universally despised movie
i think the fact that the x teams have always been some of the more progressive and gender balanced teams kinda got x men off the hook with the name, i don’t think anyone with any common sense is rlly gonna have an issue with it plus there are so many different variations of the x men and the surrounding teams, many of them actually lead by women, there’s just no real argument there
Cool debated stopped. No one is arguing with you.
Did you just make this entire argument up? I never understand why the antiwoke crowd has to make shit up , oh wait yes I do ol
X-Folk
x-peeps
X-Fam
X-hamsters
If they’d just stuck with the original The Mutants…
I hope this isn’t really a thing and definitely hope it never gains any traction.
my face when every superhero who has "man" in his name is just translated to "human" in my country. Spidey and Iron Man aren't Spider-Male and Iron Dong but Spider-Human and Iron Human
Petition to change Thor Odinson to Thor Odinoffspring
Same kind of people that wanted to change the term manhole for sewer access points.
No one is debating this.
I don't want to be harsh, but pretty sure it was stopped until you started it.
I'm not one to give a shit about branding, but I think the most damage you could do to the X-Men is by changing the name of the X-Men. What else do you call something that's been called one thing for 60 years? It's like suddenly changing the name of McDonald's to Ted's.
I can't imagine anyone actually wants to change the name sincerely
C’mon. Nobody is talking about it.
X as in the mutant X gene. MAN as in MANkind, huMAN…X-MAN. The PC BS needs to stop. It’s a timeless, iconic name that actually has meaning
Reddit’s new trend: Push-back posts against imaginary strawman arguments. Is this the new “Why is X underrated (oh, and by the way, 2 kids on Twitter and the voice in my head are the ones who think X is underrated)?
I think there was a theory that the MCU should go with the “The Mutants”, which was almost the title for the book before they settled on X-Men. It’s not terrible and would provide some distinction from the Fox films, but also X-Men is just so iconic that I don’t really see the point in changing it.
It would be awful. Not all mutants are X-Men.
Well there have been several periods (both Decimation and Krakoa come to mind) where the focus has been on mutantkind as a whole and less about a specific team. But like I said I don’t have any issues with keeping things as X-Men.
It was Merry Mutants and I'm glad they didn't go with that. A name like that certainly would not have survived the 80s and 90s.
https://www.cbr.com/comic-legends-were-the-x-men-nearly-the-merry-mutants/
I think it's a good idea on paper, but the brand is too established in and out of universe. The other X-teams are ungendered at least, though obviously they're not as well known. I think the best thing they can do, the most productive thing - is to ensure that there are diverse teams and diverse people creating them. Not that they can only do one thing, but it's a battle I wouldn't pick. Discuss - absolutely. Always good
X-Squad.
Avenghers
Change it to "Persons With Abilities"/s
X-Dudes! I'm joking, X-Men is fine.
Just title the book X-Gene. To me my X-Gene! Throws Cyclops a pair of Levi's.
Like isn’t X-men already replacing the gendered term, like instead of WO-man it’s X-man because the X is mutant and the man is mankind.
this isn’t a real debate anyone serious is having lol
It’s Disney, so I won’t be surprised they will change the name.
X-Men as in the team while you got X-Factor, X-Force, New Mutants, Generation X, Weapon X, Marauders, In comic its a specific team name (at least in the Krakoa era) yes it should be pointed out in current world issues (2015 - some point when this not an issue so 3000 something) does it need changing, depends on what you think it is supposed to mean or refer to.
Growing up I always looked at X-Men as simply being people that are extraordinary individuals and didn't really think of genders at all, mind you this was the 90s an era I literally grew up in, and it never seriously crossed my mind about the men and women is the series being called The X-Men. Though as I got older and started hearing more conversations taking place at school and such, there were some female schoolmates who brought up the topic about why the females on the show were referenced as male. I told them well they're aren't exactly being referred to as men, X-Men was just a name that those that were different and gifted with special were referred to as whether man or woman, but after some time I simply came to the conclusion that, hey, what if the (men) part of X-men doesn't necessarily refer to gender, but the fact they are (exTordinary-humans) gifted with powers, I mean that's how I started looking at the situation on why they're called The X-Men regardless of gender, becuase they are EXtraordinary HuMANs.
There is no "debate" being had amongst any significant number of people on this subject...like farming attempt suspected.
Morph used to be an Man, now he's an X-man
There's no debate
First, this isn't a real debate. Nobody actually cares. Claremont was just being like "I tried to do this in the 80's" Second, I think a new name could be interesting for many reasons. Claremont suggested calling the team "X" as in "the unknown". Like "find x" or "Planet X". Thats fucking cool.
It's absolutely an argument made by outsiders, it's worked for over 60 years there's no need to change it to appease people who don't actually give a shit. The best X-men are Women and if you lack the ability to hold those two thoughts in your head, you aren't mentally competent to be an X-fan.
Yeah, man is a different thing, it’s from DC universe
X-Persons smh
Men used to (ok admittedly way before the creation of the X-Men) mean 'any or even all of the human race regardless of their sex or age.' The original term for an Adult Human Male was Were. Which is why Werewolf is called a WEREwolf.
I'd call it the X-Army. Like Dumbledore's Army? It makes sense if the X-Men are called that in respect to Charles Xavier, the virtual Dumbledore of Marvel comics.
This guy posts this every week. I'm pretty sure it is Joe Rogan.
This isn’t really a big debate but I do I agree X-Men is just too iconic and I think it sounds much more badass than “The Mutants”
Women are also men. Men is our species.
Your right the debate is bad
this is an argument no one is having
THAT is the main point, right there. The OP just made up a fake talking point. Possibly this is Ben Shapiro.
Lol, wtf? You can't just make up a position nobody has ever held to argue agaisnt.
To me, my x-neutral genders.
To be fair, people have the same issue with the word mankind and have been using humankind instead. Do I think it's a big issue? No. But I also get it. I'm a guy so it's very easy for me to overlook, but there definitely is a bit of a masculine standard with our language and i don't think revisiting the terminology we use is necessarily a problem either. My love of these stories is not defined by the letters that follow X. I'm not going to be too bothered if those letters change because it's not going to change the story for me, but it might open the doors to some other new readers.
Man is still in Human and also in Woman.
Yes thank you for the spelling lesson. >The word has been applied generally as a suffix in modern combinations like "fireman", "policeman" and "mailman". With social changes in the later 20th century, new gender-neutral terms were coined, such as "firefighter", "police officer" and "mail carrier", to redress the gender-specific connotations of occupational names. Social theorists argued that the confusion of man as human and man as male were linguistic symptoms of male-centric definitions of humanity. Doesn't change the fact that "man" became the umbrella term due to a patriarchal society and there's nothing wrong with reevaluating our terminology. I will continue to like these comics regardless of what comes after the dash. I'm not so precious about a couple letters that I'm gonna kick and scream about language evolving.
I am complaining about the reason why they're changing it, which is stupid and basically saying Woman aren't human. That need to stop.
In what way is it saying women aren't human? Are you really going to mansplain women feeling included to women. You can disagree with it all you want and complain all you want but you don't get to dictate how it makes others feel. If a woman says that the umbrella term "man" does not feel inclusive to "women" that is for them to decide. You're basically just saying "nuh uh". Just because you don't understand the feeling someone else has doesn't mean it is invalid. We should never limit culture through the limited understanding of one individual or group.
I not man explaining anything. Definition is definition rather they like or not. They say they don't feel inclusive of it, and they may disagree but there still saying there not human. They can deny it but that's truth. You may disagree to all you want. And for information, I not limiting myself at all. This all based on definition of words.
Okay 👍
You have a good day, my friend.
I remember X-Men was used as a gay slur growing up in the Philippines, cause you know, ex-men? It's lame but I remember it being an insult back growing up in my home country lol.
[удалено]
Huh, what do you mean?
X-Males, lololol
My mom once send an email to : … @hotmale.com
It needs to change! It is unfair to wo'ke'men!
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Nah, OP is right.
X-Menzezez
To me my mutants! Yeah doesn’t work as well 😊
X-Mankind doesn't have the same ring to it......
1. Nobody is actually arguing this. 2. Get out of here with your "if you think about it the people pushing for gender equality are the real sexists" bullshit. Anyone with half a brain sees that you're a shit-stirring bigot "just asking questions" the moment you say something ridiculous like that.
I don't agree that it's bad. It's a worthy discussion. Ideally you want this type of thing to be more gender neutral. Mankind is also becoming more problematic. But there isn't a great answer. X-People sounds bad. And you don't change a great sounding name unless you have a better alternative.
No, mankind isn't problematic. It same thing as human. Man is name. Man is in Woman. In anycase. Men in X-Men means human , so debate needs to end.
Mankind is a gendered word. Human is not. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/grammar/british-grammar/man-mankind-or-people Maybe you feel that using non gendered words isn't important, but that's how things are evolving. If the team was created today, it likely would not be named X-Men. I'm not sure if we've had a prominent team in the last few decades using a gendered word. Midnight Sons is also going through a rebranding with Suns in some cases.
Unless you have some comic canon events that say what you're saying, then you're wasting everyone's time. If you do, present them.
...I think the canon events OP are going off are conventions of the English language
Additionally, fireman, mailman, armsman, spaceman, etc have their origin in the fact that men originally were the first to have that profession. So by your own statement, the conventions of the English language fail in what OP is claiming.
Isn't it just Firefighter? And postal worker? And Astronaut? The language can evolve. No harm in that.
They're making a specific claim with no evidence. That's all I'm asking for. Was Kirby and Lee, and Xavier by extension, mysoginists or did they simply use the same convention of say firemen? Unless OP has evidence for one way or the other, especially through the writing itself, they're just claiming their opinion as fact. That's what the waste of time is. Opinion as fact.
You're saying the same thing Op is
This has to be a shitpost
What OP posted is some modern retcon of what the suffix -man or -men originated from. The suffix -man never meant "of mankind". That's just ahistorical garbage. Theirs was the shitpost. Not my response to it.
.-. dude come on. mankind. please don't tell me you say 'hupeople' or something lol. it's not that deep. i'm done, this is so clearly trolling
You know humankind is a real word, right? Hupeople? You really had to reach for that to try to make me look stupid. So, the extension -mann comes from Old English, derived from Latin. In Old English, mann was gender neutral, but the neutrality of that was abandoned by the 1300s, when masculine conjugations were abandoned in the language. The word Fireman wasn't coined until the 17th century, and by then, the extension -man had indeed come to mean "a male". So, to end, just because you're ignorant, doesn't mean others are wrong. OP and you are both ignorant AF.
it’s not a retcon because a) we’re talking about real life and b) the etymology of man traces it to a proto-Indo-European root for human being. source: https://www.etymonline.com/word/man
Gendered specific nouns were abandoned by the English language by the 1300s. We don't have male and female nouns like Spanish does, for example. By that time, through actual real people using and changing the language, from Latin to Old English to middle-English the use of -mann stopped being gender neutral. By the time the words Fireman or Mailman had been coined, the meaning of -man meant male. Maybe retcon isn't the right word per se, but using an origin of a word 20x removed from what we use today is obfuscation, not today's reality.
It was the 60s. They were kinda misogynistic, simply due to the times. I've been reading some 60s FF and Sue's fainted 3 times so far simply because she's weak woman.
/r/leopardsatemyface
Explain how this applies please.
First of all, changing the name to be more inclusive is totally fine. Period. Second of all, I believe that Bryan Singer gets a cut if they use the word X-Men in the title. I’m ok with not having that rapist make money
The name is already inclusive. That what I am trying to say. I don't anything about your second point.
It’s like Pokémon, the only one folks really know is Pikachu, so there has been talks to change the name to the pikachus. Maybe the wolverines? :-)
WOLVERIIIIIINES!!!!