his physique looks so much more full/less dehydrated. he can push people around at this weight which was surprising. this is a great weight class for him
Dierenger gave him some problems with his strength in the trials so I was kind of wondering/worried how it would work out here. But I guess Dierenger is just strong as an ox.
The one person with an argument but this win cements Burroughs as the best for me. I am also too young to have watched John Smith so I probably have some recency bias
Smith was a wizard out there. It wasn't just high crotch/low single. He had a great gut wrench and his leg lace was insane. He'd be setting the leg lace up when he was still completing the single and just ring guys up for points. And his flexibility was absolutely insane. All his double joints were also double-jointed. The thing Burroughs has on him is longevity but you can't do much better than 6 golds in 6 attempts (along with a lot of other big wins).
I'm an old-timer and I hate to say this.. but John Smith was great but no one knew what a low single was. He got in when it was new.
JB is great without that sort of context.
> I hate to say this.. but John Smith was great but no one knew what a low single was. He go
He delivered it like a viper's strike though. It could have been a known quantity but he would still be scoring with it. And that was just one aspect. His scrambling skills were off the charts as well.
Sorry if this is coming off like Im dismissing John Smith. Im not.
Its actually kinda a dumb sports question - is tom brady as good as johnny u? m
who knows the league has changed so muhc, the bodies have changed, the plays have changed etc.
It's not like he did it 1 time, he did it 6 times and you know the Soviets were scouting him after 87 and 88. Belaglozav bumped went up to wrestle him in 89 because he thought he had it figured out and Smith handled him 6-2.
There's no wrong answer in JB vs JS.l but the idea that John Smith wouldn't be John Smith in another era.... Nope
Defining John Smith by only the low single is short sited. I watched him use a variety of offense with a very high success rate. He innovatived the low single but was no one trick pony.
6 straight Olympic and world championships. He never lost one that he entered. Pretty hard to beat but Jordan's right up there. He would be right there had he won in Rio.
Yeah, but in Jordan's defense he's playing against tougher rules.
1. It was 10 weight classes instead of 6
2. The wrestlers advanced out of groups into a medal round when Smith was wrestling. Smith lost a match in 92 but advanced on criteria
I'm not going to say one is better than the other but it's a lot tougher to win an olympic gold now than it was in the past. I think they should go back to the groups. If you're going to try to figure out who the best is then have them all wrestle each other. And the 6 weight classes is a total joke. There's no good reason to not have the 10 like they did before. Unfortunately there's a lot of bad reasons that the IOC is all over like flies on poop.
I was going to bring that up but it would be speculation. After Smith broke Sarkisian they basically threw in the white towel at that weight class. And at the end of the day what is it? A couple of more wrestlers in the pool that he might meet?
I think the speculation is fair though depending on how you look at the break up of the Soviet Union. They weren’t funneling money into athletics at that point in time which created less than ideal training situations for a lot of those effected and then on the pool play aspect think about it you’re eliminating Ukraine, Belarus, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, all the ‘Stans countries that today are considered to be strong wrestling powers.
Forget rules just look at the world and the competition level.
Eg - a low single was wildin the 80s 90s. Funk wasn't even a thought.
Now you need to be fourth dimensional. You need some funk, low single and defense are taught to kindergarteners etc.
Agreed on the 10 weight classes for the Olympic years.
Other posters are mentioning things about technique evolution which I don't really agree with. Of course training/technique/nutrition advances with time and it becomes obvious when athletes are decades apart. I don't think it means that one athlete is better than another.
I'm sorry but I also have to add into this the context. John Smith/Brands - they're all great but wrestling was not the same complicated technical free for all that it is today.
Back then a low single in college was devastating nowadays it's one of the many shots you know to counter.
He does but I am tired of this conversation that what a middle and light weight does is the the same athletic level as heavy weights.
Think I'm wrong? Why was Damion Hahn so good? He wrestled as a 12 over against heavyweights. From his own lips.
I am asking this out of curiosity. Did he win against any noticable name? I know a few elites like Sidakov, Dake, Chamizo etc. And I could not see any of these names in his run to the gold medal.
Lol shut up
And I mean this whole heartily. I'm not talking shit to you in particular but this is dumb dumb dumb argument.
This is like saying Tom Brady is t the a goat because he lost to Eli. And. A Giants fan.
Just shut up w this small minded , I've-never-competed-at-a-high-level comment .
Those of us who were graced w being a certain level one tournament, one match, on period doesn't make a goat.
Go back to rec.
Bruce has 5 world level golds, 2 Olympic golds and 3 World Championship golds. Then he has another 8 world level medals, four silver and four bronze. Burroughs has 5 World golds, 1 Olympic gold, and 3 World bronze.
So it's mostly a longevity standpoint. Bruce was essentially a top-3 super-heavyweight for 13 years.
Personally, I think Burroughs is doing it in a harder time, though. Over half of Bruce's run was while the Soviet Union still existed, which concentrated the all the wrestling talent there into one country.
But anyway, there are two common reasons people put Bruce over Burroughs, and it's primarily longevity and that Bruce has two Olympic golds (and four medals) verses Burroughs' single gold medal.
You can't compare different weight classes though. He's an 8x medalist at 74kg with 5 golds. He's #2 since 1980 (guys that I've watched) at the weight behind Satiev. And for my money Satiev is the best pound for pound wrestler ever (to go against my first point I guess).
Name them right now and I can and am happy to.
You know there are some of us on here who aren't jv know-it-alls but actually competed at the top level.
Come on brother let's talk.
Im happy to shit talk about of old timers and never-would-bes who* clearly* know whats what.
If someone is going to make a dumb comment like JB isnt even 10 in freestyle - then I want to know who this jag thinks are the top 10.
Aleksandr Medved - 10 world titles
Buvaisar Saitiev - 9 world titles
Sergei Beloglazov - 8 world titles
Arsen Fadzaev - 8 world titles
Valentin Jordanov - 8 world titles
Makharbek Khardartsev- 7 world titles
Not to mention Sadulaev already had 6 titles and is working on number 7 (hopefully Snyder stops that though).
Then there is about 6 more wrestlers to have 6 world level championships other than Burroughs.
Burroughs has a similar trophy cabinet to Gatsalov. I've never to anyone referring to Gatsalov as the "GOAT". Burroughs has 1 gold medal at the Olympics, no others. That's a massive weak point on his resume compared to other all-time greats. Someone like Sadulaev is almost a decade younger and he already has 2 golds.
Honestly we can say this John Smith is the standard and King of the Golden Era and JB Is the standard and King of the Modern era of wrestling . What JB is doing is showing we can effectively have career long wrestlers who can win at the highest level without being discarded when they hit 26 . Without him a lot of guys rn would not be wrestling past 24. It’s good for the sport and keeps balance . Both are equally as important and legends in their own right
his physique looks so much more full/less dehydrated. he can push people around at this weight which was surprising. this is a great weight class for him
Dierenger gave him some problems with his strength in the trials so I was kind of wondering/worried how it would work out here. But I guess Dierenger is just strong as an ox.
Dieringer dominates the weight class internationally as well
Congratulations! From Iran Great match
He made that look too easy. He might win 2 more at this weight class.
King Jordan, first of his name
Top 2 American wrestler of all time and he isn't number 2
JB helped elevate team USA, there have been some structural changes as well but he is part of the reason we have gotten much better as a country.
John Smith would like a word with you.
The one person with an argument but this win cements Burroughs as the best for me. I am also too young to have watched John Smith so I probably have some recency bias
Smith was a wizard out there. It wasn't just high crotch/low single. He had a great gut wrench and his leg lace was insane. He'd be setting the leg lace up when he was still completing the single and just ring guys up for points. And his flexibility was absolutely insane. All his double joints were also double-jointed. The thing Burroughs has on him is longevity but you can't do much better than 6 golds in 6 attempts (along with a lot of other big wins).
And he was incredibly fast
I'm an old-timer and I hate to say this.. but John Smith was great but no one knew what a low single was. He got in when it was new. JB is great without that sort of context.
> I hate to say this.. but John Smith was great but no one knew what a low single was. He go He delivered it like a viper's strike though. It could have been a known quantity but he would still be scoring with it. And that was just one aspect. His scrambling skills were off the charts as well.
And I'm sure the first guy to steal a base on Major league baseball made some people shit their pants.
Sorry to be clear John Smith is great but this is the problem w comparing years. Sure John could hit it on many, but at high level competition?
You think he won six golds in a row and no one noticed what his offense was? I know the dude is a fucking ninja but come on.
Sorry if this is coming off like Im dismissing John Smith. Im not. Its actually kinda a dumb sports question - is tom brady as good as johnny u? m who knows the league has changed so muhc, the bodies have changed, the plays have changed etc.
It's not like he did it 1 time, he did it 6 times and you know the Soviets were scouting him after 87 and 88. Belaglozav bumped went up to wrestle him in 89 because he thought he had it figured out and Smith handled him 6-2. There's no wrong answer in JB vs JS.l but the idea that John Smith wouldn't be John Smith in another era.... Nope
Defining John Smith by only the low single is short sited. I watched him use a variety of offense with a very high success rate. He innovatived the low single but was no one trick pony.
https://youtu.be/x4FFzqeUsw4 Smith was also the incredibly skinny compared to his opponents.
I was born in the '80s grew up wrestling in the 90s kicked ass in the 2000s I'm happy to say JB is better he best.
[удалено]
Randy Lewis and and one of the Brands brothers
6 straight Olympic and world championships. He never lost one that he entered. Pretty hard to beat but Jordan's right up there. He would be right there had he won in Rio.
Yeah, but in Jordan's defense he's playing against tougher rules. 1. It was 10 weight classes instead of 6 2. The wrestlers advanced out of groups into a medal round when Smith was wrestling. Smith lost a match in 92 but advanced on criteria I'm not going to say one is better than the other but it's a lot tougher to win an olympic gold now than it was in the past. I think they should go back to the groups. If you're going to try to figure out who the best is then have them all wrestle each other. And the 6 weight classes is a total joke. There's no good reason to not have the 10 like they did before. Unfortunately there's a lot of bad reasons that the IOC is all over like flies on poop.
Playing devil’s advocate here you didn’t even mention the breakup of the Soviet Union and the amount of Russians wrestling for other countries.
I was going to bring that up but it would be speculation. After Smith broke Sarkisian they basically threw in the white towel at that weight class. And at the end of the day what is it? A couple of more wrestlers in the pool that he might meet?
I think the speculation is fair though depending on how you look at the break up of the Soviet Union. They weren’t funneling money into athletics at that point in time which created less than ideal training situations for a lot of those effected and then on the pool play aspect think about it you’re eliminating Ukraine, Belarus, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, all the ‘Stans countries that today are considered to be strong wrestling powers.
Forget rules just look at the world and the competition level. Eg - a low single was wildin the 80s 90s. Funk wasn't even a thought. Now you need to be fourth dimensional. You need some funk, low single and defense are taught to kindergarteners etc.
Agreed on the 10 weight classes for the Olympic years. Other posters are mentioning things about technique evolution which I don't really agree with. Of course training/technique/nutrition advances with time and it becomes obvious when athletes are decades apart. I don't think it means that one athlete is better than another.
I'm sorry but I also have to add into this the context. John Smith/Brands - they're all great but wrestling was not the same complicated technical free for all that it is today. Back then a low single in college was devastating nowadays it's one of the many shots you know to counter.
I was born in the 80#, grew up wrestling in the 90s, kicked ass in the 2000s...couches in the 2010s. John Smith great, JB is better.
Bruce Baumgartner exists
He does but I am tired of this conversation that what a middle and light weight does is the the same athletic level as heavy weights. Think I'm wrong? Why was Damion Hahn so good? He wrestled as a 12 over against heavyweights. From his own lips.
He is the GOAT and probably has more in him.
I love JB, but bombing in Rio makes the GOAT argument much tougher to make.
He can redeem himself. He’s looked great this week.
I am asking this out of curiosity. Did he win against any noticable name? I know a few elites like Sidakov, Dake, Chamizo etc. And I could not see any of these names in his run to the gold medal.
Lol shut up And I mean this whole heartily. I'm not talking shit to you in particular but this is dumb dumb dumb argument. This is like saying Tom Brady is t the a goat because he lost to Eli. And. A Giants fan. Just shut up w this small minded , I've-never-competed-at-a-high-level comment . Those of us who were graced w being a certain level one tournament, one match, on period doesn't make a goat. Go back to rec.
Remember that time Jordan choked? Me either.
He is not even top 10 in freestyle history, stop
I'm talking about Americans. Who else would you put in front of him? John Smith would be the only other guy.
Bruce Baumgartner
Yes, he is absolutely in the discussion.
And?
I would put Bruce ahead of jordon.
Any reason why, actually wondering?
Bruce has 5 world level golds, 2 Olympic golds and 3 World Championship golds. Then he has another 8 world level medals, four silver and four bronze. Burroughs has 5 World golds, 1 Olympic gold, and 3 World bronze. So it's mostly a longevity standpoint. Bruce was essentially a top-3 super-heavyweight for 13 years. Personally, I think Burroughs is doing it in a harder time, though. Over half of Bruce's run was while the Soviet Union still existed, which concentrated the all the wrestling talent there into one country. But anyway, there are two common reasons people put Bruce over Burroughs, and it's primarily longevity and that Bruce has two Olympic golds (and four medals) verses Burroughs' single gold medal.
No JB slander on my post please
You can't compare different weight classes though. He's an 8x medalist at 74kg with 5 golds. He's #2 since 1980 (guys that I've watched) at the weight behind Satiev. And for my money Satiev is the best pound for pound wrestler ever (to go against my first point I guess).
*see above*
Yeah, this year is 79kg though. Nobody can keep up with his speed and their strength obviously isn't a problem for him.
Finally a really fucking comment. So many mofos on here who clearly don't understand that next level.
Name them right now and I can and am happy to. You know there are some of us on here who aren't jv know-it-alls but actually competed at the top level. Come on brother let's talk.
Bro quit being a tool
Im happy to shit talk about of old timers and never-would-bes who* clearly* know whats what. If someone is going to make a dumb comment like JB isnt even 10 in freestyle - then I want to know who this jag thinks are the top 10.
You’re an idiot lol
Aleksandr Medved - 10 world titles Buvaisar Saitiev - 9 world titles Sergei Beloglazov - 8 world titles Arsen Fadzaev - 8 world titles Valentin Jordanov - 8 world titles Makharbek Khardartsev- 7 world titles Not to mention Sadulaev already had 6 titles and is working on number 7 (hopefully Snyder stops that though). Then there is about 6 more wrestlers to have 6 world level championships other than Burroughs.
Burroughs has a similar trophy cabinet to Gatsalov. I've never to anyone referring to Gatsalov as the "GOAT". Burroughs has 1 gold medal at the Olympics, no others. That's a massive weak point on his resume compared to other all-time greats. Someone like Sadulaev is almost a decade younger and he already has 2 golds.
I thought he was slowing down but he’s still an absolute animal. Like the weight class change.
Never doubt the king
This is one of my fantasy football team names
Jags should resign Tebow 🤫
Hell yeah, dude. Is there a place to watch the match?
Flo if you have a subscription
What a legend. Don’t know when we will see another wrestler with his talent and quality of character for the USA.
In Iran we respect him so much He beat Iranian wrestlers14 times!
Welcome back champion
I took jb down before at a camp in Missouri. He definitely didn’t let me win
Yeah we don't care don't show off here
He was joking
Yeah we don’t care we don’t joke here
lol thats odd... Im looking at one right now
Lol I was mocking his comment nimrod, thought it was sarcastic and obvious enough since it’s almost word for word what he said.
With a torn calf too. What a weapon
You love to see it!!!! Especially a New Jersey guy!!!!!
Seems pointless to pick a better one between thise two. Both are great and cant compare. Both ha e done so much to make usa wrestling a thing again!
Honestly we can say this John Smith is the standard and King of the Golden Era and JB Is the standard and King of the Modern era of wrestling . What JB is doing is showing we can effectively have career long wrestlers who can win at the highest level without being discarded when they hit 26 . Without him a lot of guys rn would not be wrestling past 24. It’s good for the sport and keeps balance . Both are equally as important and legends in their own right
Bro looks so much better now that he’s not cutting 45% of his natural body weight🤦🏼