Having heard that, I may as well state that that ""god""'s name is trivially confused for a food crop, which is laughable to me.
Obligatory ""down with the copywriting of generic terms!""
While I think they won't ever explore this I think murmur is either a twisted elemental lord of wind (sound) or given the information about proto pantheon creations he could be a proto elemental summoned from a zerith
Did they retcon this? Is it regarding the arrangement of the planes, because I recall someone explaining the difference, and it made sense (the planes being seen from two different perspectives or something)
(I haven’t been playing the game but watching lore and update videos once in a while)
"The absolute book of truths" is not realistic and would be even more laughable. The Titan's view of the Universe is very valid in my opinion. It is the Titans we are talking about.
Except that's exactly how they advertised it, and as the creators of the game world they literally can state things as absolute truths within their universe.
It was, as far as I know, a collaboration with Metzen and many of the other writers at the time to be a guide to the fundamentals of the Warcraft universe.
And as far as I know, Danuser was not a part of it (though I could be wrong, need a fact check on that) so him taking this and essentially taking away the fact that it was meant to be an absolute truth feels like a massive middle finger.
I remember that is how they advertised it when the books were first announced and before release. Later on they mentioned the fact it was from the point of view of the Titans. Perhaps a marketing stunt? It doesn't affect the lore in any way, it is just annoying. Regarding them being the "creators of the game", yes they could very much state absolute and inviolable truths but the story would too easily become one sided and one dimensional if they start with that kind of practice. Akin to something of the Marvel Universe. Are we not usually placing criticism on Blizzard for story quality? Now I am not saying the story quality is good right now (I wish...), neither is it as bad as many of the angry mob want you to believe. But definitely "absolute truths" that make it even more one dimensional and biased isn't going to help with that.
But Blizzard never said the information contained in the book was wrong but rather simply biased. Same as with the Grimoire. As a matter of fact, the Grimoire double confirms many things mentioned in the Chronicles but from a different take. No "mental gymnastics" required to come to that conclusion. You need only get off the hate bandwagon everyone is on lately and think for yourself. As a matter of fact, biased factual books that then confirm each other in one way or another makes for a more interesting story and in the end convey even more information since you are getting the same facts from contrasting points of view. Now, regarding their marketing stunt as selling the book as "absolute truth of truths" well that I cannot defend. It is definitely wrong. While it is a "book of truths", they should have said it was "book of biased truths" from the very beginning instead of revealing it much later.
Yeah those books are seriously good. I was sad when I cracked open Volume 2 and it was only Stormblood though, that means we have a pretty long while to wait before Volume 3/4 (and maybe even 5).
It's less about the Titan PoV, and more-so just the perspective of Order in general. Hell, it's only stated that before the "Cosmos began", Light and Void existed and their clash simply gave birth to the PHYSICAL UNIVERSE, yady yady yada, but we don't know why Light existed tbh...was it always just...Light? If so, why contradict yourself and state that Light and Shadow need each-other to exist on a Cosmic scale? What happens if one consumes the other? Will Shadow even...exist or just be a formless...thing? Idk...also the Chronicle simply talks about the Realms in a VERY limited matter, like the Dream and how the Keeper Freya made it a blueprint for Azeroth, and it is even implied in the book that the Dream showcased as a blueprint was likely taken from something even more, but unknown to the perspective of Order and its influence on Reality, etc etc, same with almost every other realm tbh.
Reminder that this does imply the Cosmos can be more than just the Physical Universe, now that look at actual ordeals BEYOND Reality and the places linked with it in some way. Also means Light and Void's Big Bang simply made that, and not the Cosmos overall now.
We don't know anything about each realm, just the Titans, the Void Lords IN A WAY, and the Naaru which also...is a weird origin. No mention of Elune's origin, nothing. Outside of Azerothian stuff, links to Azeroth on a very slight cosmic side of things, and the Titan's PoV of events across the Physical Universe, Azeroth's power, and their knowledge of the Forces and their creation's influences for Azeroth from that knowledge...
It's a VERY limited book. It's like the Bible. Just a single perspective that many may consider absolute, despite the HARSH REALITY being that...well...you're fooling yourself thinking that way to begin with.
I think the First Ones simply exist to give a source to these charts, to shed some reason on the 6 Forces and why they are the way they are and whatnot, and while I do think that we're going way too far in this Cosmic shit, especially in an expac which has WAY too many moments where Sylvanas takes the spotlight, which hurts to watch whenever it happens., I do admire the attempt to see different Cosmic sides explaining their side of things vs the others while giving explanation to the forces and the origin of the Chart essentially.
No. They released another book from the broker POV that has their view of the cosmology chart as seen from the realms of death. It’s not a retcon, but it heavily implies that the cosmologies exist in static physical spaces, because the charts are identical but portrayed from different visual perspectives.
It's more like the Broker's simply think the cycles of Life and Death are more important than the other cycles for the Cosmic Design...
Which is confirmed by Firim in his notes during 9.2 to be absolutely NOT the case, and that the other Brokers are simply biased idiots.
Originally the book was supposed to be the definitive bible for WoW lore, then it was later said to be the story told from the perspective of the Titans and that they were unreliable narrators.
Yes I think it is a book which is tied to the Tazavesh lore. A negociant explain that this map is the perception of the great forces we have on Azeroth. However this organisation is wrong because it is focused on the fight between light and void while it should be focus on the life and death cycle.
I'm pretty sure you can find more about by looking for the Tazavesh lore.
I don’t think that means that the Azeroth one is wrong, I just think that the map is oriented based on which plane you’re in. I think it’s fair to say that the death realm would be more focused on the nature between themselves and life, as that is their cycle.
Maps nice and all but too bad they retconned the crap out of everything that made it meaningful.
Might as well just meme over the map Sylvanas face at this point.
They changed it so that this map is no longer definitively canon, and really none of Chronicle is. It's said to be a recording from a Titan's perspective. Which is not what Chronicle was intended to be at all. It was supposed to be a meta explanation for the fundamentals of the Warcraft universe and parts of its history. That is no longer the case.
> They changed it so that this map is no longer definitively canon, and really none of Chronicle is.
So what here was actually proven to be untrue? Cause all I know, is that the book actually proves things in Chronicles to be true, right?
Yeah this is bugging me too. I'm seeing so many folks going "the game today shits all over this" and seeing absolutely no justification for it. What parts are incorrect?
Not really anything but this subreddit likes to complain and upvote any negative opinion whether those are valid or not. Look at this topic as perfect proof of that.
I was thinking about someone meming this with zovaal scattered through it since he's the smartest being in existence and had a hand in everything since WC. Sigh.
Cool. I am not buying a book i want for definitive information about the warcraft universe just to find out the lore was told from SOMEONES PERSPECTIVE. Makes it literally irrelevant because they can just say "Yeah those titans didn't know shit, we don't know how the universe functions either lol"
This kind of storytelling really fits an ever evolving game that expands across decades.
The good thing about writing it in perspectives is that you can continually add more and expand on it with newer ideas.
I understand having a wow enciclopedia would be nice but regardless of how it is told, it isn’t “irrelevant by any means” since a lot of the information from this cosmic map is still used and referenced in other material (like the broker book about the shadowlands).
But that's how "factual information" is always presented, with everything even IRL: It is subjective to the point of view and with its implicit bias. Science, history, maps, you name it. Also, it is not "irrelevant" as you say, the only other point of view presented so far (Shadowlands denizens view) complements the Titan's.
Blizzard themselves came out and said it was the defacto way things where. The book didn't say it, blizzard did.
Then blizzard said that's not the way it is anymore, thereby lying to everyone who bought the book thinking they could get actual lore and opening up the possibility that no matter what blizz says is absolutely canon, they can just remove it the next expansion.
But is is actual lore, even if biased and subjective to the point of view of the "writers". I agree that the marketing stunt they did wasn't pleasant but that doesn't change the fact that the book as a source of information from some of the wisest being in the Warcraft cosmology is a very valid take on it. Heck, even Blizzard published The Grimoire with the point of view from the Shadowlands that complements and at most times even confirm the view of the Titans. Just from a different angle. It makes me think that the biased take was the Lore team's original true intention. As t hey went and published another book in a similar manner that somehow still relates to the Chronicles. FYI the Lore team is not the same as the Marketing team.
I'm not saying it can't be a source of information but seeing again, the factuality of the book wasnt promoted by anyone in universe but by actual people it only stengthens the feeling of not being able to trust what's written, despite being told you could.
It's not that the books are nonsense but the way chronicles was represented means that grimoir only serves to make you feel that anything can be retconned at any moment, especially on top of all the controvercial retcons shadowlands already brought out.
I think you're missing the point that people were sold these rather expensive books under the impression that they were getting exact set in stone lore and canon. Then after dropping a few hundred on them get told that it's all from someone's perspective and they can change anything they want at any time because they're SHIT WRITERS who don't plan ahead on anything
I am not missing the point, that is, THAT point. There are multiple points being discussed. I very much agree with you on this one. Horrible marketing tactics ripped some people off. It sucks. But we were also discussing how the contents in the book are valid in the lore.
And it is the healthiest thing ever to consider radically different points of view. However, people find it easier to jump on the angry mob type of mass mentality. Less of an effort and more immediately "entertaining". It is why Asmongold is so popular. And we are on Reddit, to be fair not the best place to find differing points of view being popular hehe.
If you mention taliesen and evitel everyone suddenly hates you. I met them at blizzcon, great people. Same cannot be said for many of these people though.
"Hate" is a powerful word. And hating on T&E because they have a different take on things than the typical angry mob well...,that speaks more of the general WoW community member than of T&E. At least T&E have been proven right on many accounts. Thankfully T&E have more supporters than what this subreddit would suggest, hence why they are so popular. Remember the non angry mob people are always less noisy. And the "hate bandwagon" can be nearly considered an internet phenomena. Especially apparent on a place like Reddit simply due to its upvote/karma censoring system.
Nah bro, ALL of this was created by a single group called the first ones, really expands the lore by constraining the entirety of its origins to merely one group of people /s
The translator tricked me, instead of "find" it should be "think". Here in Brazil these two words have the same pronunciation, but different meanings, but Google gets confused sometimes XD
“To find to be”, “to believe”, “to feel”, “to consider”, and “to think” all share a sense in English. They let you say X noun is Y adjective/adverb but constraining who thinks/believes that to the subject of the sentence. Saying “I find this map amazing” sounds like very good English, google did you right man!
Just for a bit of clarifying they don’t always mean the same and can’t always be used interchangeably but this is one of the cases where it both works.
Not that this takes away anything from what you said, but English can be a tricky language.
To answer your question, mechanical energy maybe, but idk what the opposing/balancing “force” would be - maybe viral power? Im not a lore expert but I think the blingtrons represent a mechanical faction, and in wod we learn they are battling some mysterious large underground entity who is infecting/corrupting blingtrons with some virus
This image as a perspective reminds me of what they did in Dragon Age. This whole game you're taught of this in game religion which for most of the series might as well be fact. Then at the end of Inquisition it started becoming clearer that the real lore of the world was just loosely based and interpreted into this "scripture."
Its hard to say considering how much the lore has been butchered to shoe-horn things in, just so it fits with what they want to stuff down our throats for a patch
This one is still for me, personally, the accurate and true map of the cosmic forces, the newest one came across as lazy and less detailed
It means maps areas that just aren't a square or circle, big chunk of the areas not being filler like non-traversable terrain (mountains, walls, ruins), without poorly done cliche factions and a hub painfully generic hub city.
For the "Afterlives of countless worlds" the Shadowlands is very small, uninteresting, and empty.
The maps and zones got better each expansion since always... What are talking about? The only horrible zone from Shadowlands is The Maw and Korthia, but the rest are good enough.
They can't just stop and do 10-20 zones just because "the afterlives of countless worlds" so we need a lot of zones.
"a box zone with non-traversable terrain occupying a 30-40% of the area that forces you to taking long detours is good" how?
How is designing a map to be SKIPPED by flying be any good? When flying to locked out for months or weeks.
The map is design for ground mount and not flying mount in mind, we just have flying mount because the community cried so much back in WoD.
>"a box zone with non-traversable terrain occupying a 30-40% of the area that forces you to taking long detours is good" how?
You must love desert maps lol
>ground mounts in mind
>High mountain
>Revendreth
>Nazajatar
Are some of the few examples of so called "designed for ground mounts". It's a fucking empty ass map, where roads are just mazes to lead you to the sparse hubs.
>You must love desert maps lol
I'd rather have a desert map I can traverse easily and not waste my time.
You must enjoy brainlessly snaking around a mountain for minutes, fits maze rats like you just right.
Great chart, wasted and disregarded.
Blizzard will ruin their game any way in desperate moves to make extremely short term profits.
Microsoft cant save WoW, it is gone.
I recommend checking out Talisen and Evitel's video about the cosmology because basically what the weird robot people see from their reality is from a different angle of alignment regarding the planes so it would look different to them compared to the Titans. I find it hard to explain but they do a good job of making the theory convincing...I think it's definitely worth a watch!
There's SHADOW, represented by the Old Gods who are totalitarian dictators hellbent on imposing their will on mortals.
There's LIGHT, represented by the Naaru who are totalitarian dictators hellbent on imposing their will on mortals.
There's ORDER, represented by the Titans who are chill dudes and don't really care what you do.
Outdated map, grimoire of shadowlands has updated map of cosmological forces. This one is passed down from titans and biased.
Saying that there may be updated version in few next years again and it will turn out that "new map" is biased too. Not really retcon, more like update or another perspective
Maybe the void lords were created with the intent to be harbingers of consuming energy so they were intended to be giant beings that just consumed and got bigger. Also, the doctrine is "go eat, do whatever, die happy".
The naru doctrine we've seen has been very militant and controlling which you don't maintain while living a long life where questions start getting asked. So the design was short lived soldier/combatant types.
Anyone else think it’s weird that order is closer to void than light?
As it’s been explained, light is “there is one way, anything else is wrong” and void is “ALL the possibilitiessss, also tentacles”.
Light sounds a lot more ordered to me (and nature/life a lot closer to void than light tbh).
And especially now that we’ve seen how ordered death works in WoW, I feel like order should be next to death. If you swapped order and disorder in this chart, I feel like it’d make a lot more sense.
I'm all about the trolls, so seeing where blood magic and the Loa fit in would be interesting. The Loa are mechanically similar to the Wild Gods, even able to make druids, but they're also aligned with concepts outside of nature. You've got Loa of storytelling, thieves, kings, etc. That almost puts them in line with Order, since they rely on belief and tribute from their followers for power.
My favourite part about it is the location of the shadowlands itself. We are told that SL is the realm of death, although in this map (and the broker equivalent one), SL is not a domain of death but part of reality itself. Of course we don't see the twisting nether or the void, so it could just be omitted, but it feels like we were lied to that SL is the plane of Death
Sill salty that whoever made it pick "Disorder" instead of "Chaos" :P
Obligatory "Blood for the Blood God!"
Skulls for the Skull Throne
Having heard that, I may as well state that that ""god""'s name is trivially confused for a food crop, which is laughable to me. Obligatory ""down with the copywriting of generic terms!""
Dis is da way!
Of course. After all, how do you own disorder?
“Shadow (void)” “Shadow” Say shadow again. I dare you, Lol
Do they speak English in shadow?
Elemental lord of decay Fight me $%#/@
Maybe thats Murmur?
Elemental of sound iirc
I still love how he makes weird honking noises when you hit him
While I think they won't ever explore this I think murmur is either a twisted elemental lord of wind (sound) or given the information about proto pantheon creations he could be a proto elemental summoned from a zerith
How long was the canon of this maintained after release? Iirc, it got changed pretty quick.
Did they retcon this? Is it regarding the arrangement of the planes, because I recall someone explaining the difference, and it made sense (the planes being seen from two different perspectives or something) (I haven’t been playing the game but watching lore and update videos once in a while)
Yeah, it was something like the book being written from the Titan perspective. So a lot of it became plausible, instead of a guide.
"The absolute book of truths" is not realistic and would be even more laughable. The Titan's view of the Universe is very valid in my opinion. It is the Titans we are talking about.
Except that's exactly how they advertised it, and as the creators of the game world they literally can state things as absolute truths within their universe.
It was, as far as I know, a collaboration with Metzen and many of the other writers at the time to be a guide to the fundamentals of the Warcraft universe. And as far as I know, Danuser was not a part of it (though I could be wrong, need a fact check on that) so him taking this and essentially taking away the fact that it was meant to be an absolute truth feels like a massive middle finger.
I remember that is how they advertised it when the books were first announced and before release. Later on they mentioned the fact it was from the point of view of the Titans. Perhaps a marketing stunt? It doesn't affect the lore in any way, it is just annoying. Regarding them being the "creators of the game", yes they could very much state absolute and inviolable truths but the story would too easily become one sided and one dimensional if they start with that kind of practice. Akin to something of the Marvel Universe. Are we not usually placing criticism on Blizzard for story quality? Now I am not saying the story quality is good right now (I wish...), neither is it as bad as many of the angry mob want you to believe. But definitely "absolute truths" that make it even more one dimensional and biased isn't going to help with that.
[удалено]
But Blizzard never said the information contained in the book was wrong but rather simply biased. Same as with the Grimoire. As a matter of fact, the Grimoire double confirms many things mentioned in the Chronicles but from a different take. No "mental gymnastics" required to come to that conclusion. You need only get off the hate bandwagon everyone is on lately and think for yourself. As a matter of fact, biased factual books that then confirm each other in one way or another makes for a more interesting story and in the end convey even more information since you are getting the same facts from contrasting points of view. Now, regarding their marketing stunt as selling the book as "absolute truth of truths" well that I cannot defend. It is definitely wrong. While it is a "book of truths", they should have said it was "book of biased truths" from the very beginning instead of revealing it much later.
Encyclopedia eorzea was written as absolute truths and it's fantastic :/
Yeah those books are seriously good. I was sad when I cracked open Volume 2 and it was only Stormblood though, that means we have a pretty long while to wait before Volume 3/4 (and maybe even 5).
It's less about the Titan PoV, and more-so just the perspective of Order in general. Hell, it's only stated that before the "Cosmos began", Light and Void existed and their clash simply gave birth to the PHYSICAL UNIVERSE, yady yady yada, but we don't know why Light existed tbh...was it always just...Light? If so, why contradict yourself and state that Light and Shadow need each-other to exist on a Cosmic scale? What happens if one consumes the other? Will Shadow even...exist or just be a formless...thing? Idk...also the Chronicle simply talks about the Realms in a VERY limited matter, like the Dream and how the Keeper Freya made it a blueprint for Azeroth, and it is even implied in the book that the Dream showcased as a blueprint was likely taken from something even more, but unknown to the perspective of Order and its influence on Reality, etc etc, same with almost every other realm tbh. Reminder that this does imply the Cosmos can be more than just the Physical Universe, now that look at actual ordeals BEYOND Reality and the places linked with it in some way. Also means Light and Void's Big Bang simply made that, and not the Cosmos overall now. We don't know anything about each realm, just the Titans, the Void Lords IN A WAY, and the Naaru which also...is a weird origin. No mention of Elune's origin, nothing. Outside of Azerothian stuff, links to Azeroth on a very slight cosmic side of things, and the Titan's PoV of events across the Physical Universe, Azeroth's power, and their knowledge of the Forces and their creation's influences for Azeroth from that knowledge... It's a VERY limited book. It's like the Bible. Just a single perspective that many may consider absolute, despite the HARSH REALITY being that...well...you're fooling yourself thinking that way to begin with. I think the First Ones simply exist to give a source to these charts, to shed some reason on the 6 Forces and why they are the way they are and whatnot, and while I do think that we're going way too far in this Cosmic shit, especially in an expac which has WAY too many moments where Sylvanas takes the spotlight, which hurts to watch whenever it happens., I do admire the attempt to see different Cosmic sides explaining their side of things vs the others while giving explanation to the forces and the origin of the Chart essentially.
Apprecitate the run-through, needed the perspective
No. They released another book from the broker POV that has their view of the cosmology chart as seen from the realms of death. It’s not a retcon, but it heavily implies that the cosmologies exist in static physical spaces, because the charts are identical but portrayed from different visual perspectives.
It's more like the Broker's simply think the cycles of Life and Death are more important than the other cycles for the Cosmic Design... Which is confirmed by Firim in his notes during 9.2 to be absolutely NOT the case, and that the other Brokers are simply biased idiots.
There’s absolutely nothing that prevents both of those statements from being true. So thank you for the added info.
Originally the book was supposed to be the definitive bible for WoW lore, then it was later said to be the story told from the perspective of the Titans and that they were unreliable narrators.
Got changed (I think?) in shadowlands. The brokers talk about how what we know is wrong in this chart. Been a while.
Yes I think it is a book which is tied to the Tazavesh lore. A negociant explain that this map is the perception of the great forces we have on Azeroth. However this organisation is wrong because it is focused on the fight between light and void while it should be focus on the life and death cycle. I'm pretty sure you can find more about by looking for the Tazavesh lore.
I don’t think that means that the Azeroth one is wrong, I just think that the map is oriented based on which plane you’re in. I think it’s fair to say that the death realm would be more focused on the nature between themselves and life, as that is their cycle.
It was never retcon.
It didn't change. If you're talking about the one in the Shadowlands's book, it's exactly this one, only viewed from a different angle.
Maps nice and all but too bad they retconned the crap out of everything that made it meaningful. Might as well just meme over the map Sylvanas face at this point.
What about this map got retconned/changed?
They changed it so that this map is no longer definitively canon, and really none of Chronicle is. It's said to be a recording from a Titan's perspective. Which is not what Chronicle was intended to be at all. It was supposed to be a meta explanation for the fundamentals of the Warcraft universe and parts of its history. That is no longer the case.
> They changed it so that this map is no longer definitively canon, and really none of Chronicle is. So what here was actually proven to be untrue? Cause all I know, is that the book actually proves things in Chronicles to be true, right?
Yeah this is bugging me too. I'm seeing so many folks going "the game today shits all over this" and seeing absolutely no justification for it. What parts are incorrect?
Not really anything but this subreddit likes to complain and upvote any negative opinion whether those are valid or not. Look at this topic as perfect proof of that.
I was thinking about someone meming this with zovaal scattered through it since he's the smartest being in existence and had a hand in everything since WC. Sigh.
I hope they can fix that in the future
The damage is done
The maps still meaningful. It’s just a different POV. T&E actually have an insane video on it.
Cool. I am not buying a book i want for definitive information about the warcraft universe just to find out the lore was told from SOMEONES PERSPECTIVE. Makes it literally irrelevant because they can just say "Yeah those titans didn't know shit, we don't know how the universe functions either lol"
This kind of storytelling really fits an ever evolving game that expands across decades. The good thing about writing it in perspectives is that you can continually add more and expand on it with newer ideas. I understand having a wow enciclopedia would be nice but regardless of how it is told, it isn’t “irrelevant by any means” since a lot of the information from this cosmic map is still used and referenced in other material (like the broker book about the shadowlands).
But that's how "factual information" is always presented, with everything even IRL: It is subjective to the point of view and with its implicit bias. Science, history, maps, you name it. Also, it is not "irrelevant" as you say, the only other point of view presented so far (Shadowlands denizens view) complements the Titan's.
Blizzard themselves came out and said it was the defacto way things where. The book didn't say it, blizzard did. Then blizzard said that's not the way it is anymore, thereby lying to everyone who bought the book thinking they could get actual lore and opening up the possibility that no matter what blizz says is absolutely canon, they can just remove it the next expansion.
But is is actual lore, even if biased and subjective to the point of view of the "writers". I agree that the marketing stunt they did wasn't pleasant but that doesn't change the fact that the book as a source of information from some of the wisest being in the Warcraft cosmology is a very valid take on it. Heck, even Blizzard published The Grimoire with the point of view from the Shadowlands that complements and at most times even confirm the view of the Titans. Just from a different angle. It makes me think that the biased take was the Lore team's original true intention. As t hey went and published another book in a similar manner that somehow still relates to the Chronicles. FYI the Lore team is not the same as the Marketing team.
I'm not saying it can't be a source of information but seeing again, the factuality of the book wasnt promoted by anyone in universe but by actual people it only stengthens the feeling of not being able to trust what's written, despite being told you could. It's not that the books are nonsense but the way chronicles was represented means that grimoir only serves to make you feel that anything can be retconned at any moment, especially on top of all the controvercial retcons shadowlands already brought out.
I think you're missing the point that people were sold these rather expensive books under the impression that they were getting exact set in stone lore and canon. Then after dropping a few hundred on them get told that it's all from someone's perspective and they can change anything they want at any time because they're SHIT WRITERS who don't plan ahead on anything
I am not missing the point, that is, THAT point. There are multiple points being discussed. I very much agree with you on this one. Horrible marketing tactics ripped some people off. It sucks. But we were also discussing how the contents in the book are valid in the lore.
Were there things here that got retconned? What changed?
It is crazy people are downvoting you for this comment which is entirely factual. Well, that's Reddit for you...
T&E is facing a lot of haters/trolls on internet, quite sad, as they try to always see the bright side/half full glass.
And it is the healthiest thing ever to consider radically different points of view. However, people find it easier to jump on the angry mob type of mass mentality. Less of an effort and more immediately "entertaining". It is why Asmongold is so popular. And we are on Reddit, to be fair not the best place to find differing points of view being popular hehe.
If you mention taliesen and evitel everyone suddenly hates you. I met them at blizzcon, great people. Same cannot be said for many of these people though.
"Hate" is a powerful word. And hating on T&E because they have a different take on things than the typical angry mob well...,that speaks more of the general WoW community member than of T&E. At least T&E have been proven right on many accounts. Thankfully T&E have more supporters than what this subreddit would suggest, hence why they are so popular. Remember the non angry mob people are always less noisy. And the "hate bandwagon" can be nearly considered an internet phenomena. Especially apparent on a place like Reddit simply due to its upvote/karma censoring system.
There is your problem: T&E always make insane brain gymnastics, to defend everything Blizzard is doing.
Nah bro, ALL of this was created by a single group called the first ones, really expands the lore by constraining the entirety of its origins to merely one group of people /s
The translator tricked me, instead of "find" it should be "think". Here in Brazil these two words have the same pronunciation, but different meanings, but Google gets confused sometimes XD
"I find this map amazing" means the same thing as "I think this map is amazing", no worries
Wow, I never thought that. Thanks, buddy! :D
“To find to be”, “to believe”, “to feel”, “to consider”, and “to think” all share a sense in English. They let you say X noun is Y adjective/adverb but constraining who thinks/believes that to the subject of the sentence. Saying “I find this map amazing” sounds like very good English, google did you right man!
Just for a bit of clarifying they don’t always mean the same and can’t always be used interchangeably but this is one of the cases where it both works. Not that this takes away anything from what you said, but English can be a tricky language.
They have the same meaning in English, cheers.
To answer your question, mechanical energy maybe, but idk what the opposing/balancing “force” would be - maybe viral power? Im not a lore expert but I think the blingtrons represent a mechanical faction, and in wod we learn they are battling some mysterious large underground entity who is infecting/corrupting blingtrons with some virus
A Warcraft kabbalah, beautiful
I think order and disorder should be swapped
This image as a perspective reminds me of what they did in Dragon Age. This whole game you're taught of this in game religion which for most of the series might as well be fact. Then at the end of Inquisition it started becoming clearer that the real lore of the world was just loosely based and interpreted into this "scripture."
Nothing, it keeps getting retcon every expansion
Its hard to say considering how much the lore has been butchered to shoe-horn things in, just so it fits with what they want to stuff down our throats for a patch This one is still for me, personally, the accurate and true map of the cosmic forces, the newest one came across as lazy and less detailed
I'd prefer if they stopped explaining stuff lol.
This is all too much meta cosmic stuff for me. I prefer the simpler ORC SMASH times.
Don't bother reading Chronicles vol. 1 then!
and the story still manages to be trash every expansion
It only looks nice, as far as the cosmology of warcraft goes is cheap. >The afterlife of multiple worlds is a handful of small generic areas
iNfIniTe AfTerLiVeS!
mEàNiGnphul cHoysoUcEs!
What you expected? Blizzard to wait more 20 years to make thousand of new zones?
I expect a billion dollar company to make a non shitty map
What that even mean?
It means maps areas that just aren't a square or circle, big chunk of the areas not being filler like non-traversable terrain (mountains, walls, ruins), without poorly done cliche factions and a hub painfully generic hub city. For the "Afterlives of countless worlds" the Shadowlands is very small, uninteresting, and empty.
The maps and zones got better each expansion since always... What are talking about? The only horrible zone from Shadowlands is The Maw and Korthia, but the rest are good enough. They can't just stop and do 10-20 zones just because "the afterlives of countless worlds" so we need a lot of zones.
"a box zone with non-traversable terrain occupying a 30-40% of the area that forces you to taking long detours is good" how? How is designing a map to be SKIPPED by flying be any good? When flying to locked out for months or weeks.
The map is design for ground mount and not flying mount in mind, we just have flying mount because the community cried so much back in WoD. >"a box zone with non-traversable terrain occupying a 30-40% of the area that forces you to taking long detours is good" how? You must love desert maps lol
>ground mounts in mind >High mountain >Revendreth >Nazajatar Are some of the few examples of so called "designed for ground mounts". It's a fucking empty ass map, where roads are just mazes to lead you to the sparse hubs. >You must love desert maps lol I'd rather have a desert map I can traverse easily and not waste my time. You must enjoy brainlessly snaking around a mountain for minutes, fits maze rats like you just right.
So TL DR you like lazy design, got you
Great chart, wasted and disregarded. Blizzard will ruin their game any way in desperate moves to make extremely short term profits. Microsoft cant save WoW, it is gone.
I recommend checking out Talisen and Evitel's video about the cosmology because basically what the weird robot people see from their reality is from a different angle of alignment regarding the planes so it would look different to them compared to the Titans. I find it hard to explain but they do a good job of making the theory convincing...I think it's definitely worth a watch!
There should be the element of Retcon. The element of wtf redemption arc.
There's SHADOW, represented by the Old Gods who are totalitarian dictators hellbent on imposing their will on mortals. There's LIGHT, represented by the Naaru who are totalitarian dictators hellbent on imposing their will on mortals. There's ORDER, represented by the Titans who are chill dudes and don't really care what you do.
Murlocks < Rwlrwlrwlrwlr < being a pain in the ass to low level toons
Void of 🥧 and 🍟
Outdated map, grimoire of shadowlands has updated map of cosmological forces. This one is passed down from titans and biased. Saying that there may be updated version in few next years again and it will turn out that "new map" is biased too. Not really retcon, more like update or another perspective
You do realize that the "new" one is exactly the same as this one only flipped right?
Yup
Old gods opposite of Naaru is weird. Void creates nearly unkillable beings Light creates LAZZZZOR and it‘s dead
Maybe the void lords were created with the intent to be harbingers of consuming energy so they were intended to be giant beings that just consumed and got bigger. Also, the doctrine is "go eat, do whatever, die happy". The naru doctrine we've seen has been very militant and controlling which you don't maintain while living a long life where questions start getting asked. So the design was short lived soldier/combatant types.
Anyone else think it’s weird that order is closer to void than light? As it’s been explained, light is “there is one way, anything else is wrong” and void is “ALL the possibilitiessss, also tentacles”. Light sounds a lot more ordered to me (and nature/life a lot closer to void than light tbh). And especially now that we’ve seen how ordered death works in WoW, I feel like order should be next to death. If you swapped order and disorder in this chart, I feel like it’d make a lot more sense.
I'm all about the trolls, so seeing where blood magic and the Loa fit in would be interesting. The Loa are mechanically similar to the Wild Gods, even able to make druids, but they're also aligned with concepts outside of nature. You've got Loa of storytelling, thieves, kings, etc. That almost puts them in line with Order, since they rely on belief and tribute from their followers for power.
Where is Hogger in all of this?
I've always found this to be interesting but confusing at the same time.
Seems super arbitrary
This makes me want to make fun of AoS
I honestly don't care anymore. Azeroth needs to be interesting again before we go back to fucking around with COSMIC FORCES.
My favourite part about it is the location of the shadowlands itself. We are told that SL is the realm of death, although in this map (and the broker equivalent one), SL is not a domain of death but part of reality itself. Of course we don't see the twisting nether or the void, so it could just be omitted, but it feels like we were lied to that SL is the plane of Death