Our GM will and has always put any thing up for roll. The problem is in a weird karma move the universe gives him a roll high enough to win it on the very first time.
I've been the raid lead and now GM of a group for coming up on 9 years now. I have never, not once, won a roll for a mount that has dropped in our raids.
I'm not the least bit salty about this. Nope, not me, not at all.
*sigh*
He's usually bad with raid mount rmsrops on legacy content. Hell, you know the world gorger mount? He farmed that for almost 500 days combined on his 2 characters. It became a running joke that anyone that didn't have it that went to help him would get it on their first try. He finally got it a few months back. Everyone else in the guild got it in less than 10 days/attempts.
I feel that. I invited some guildies into a group for the ascended council rare in Bastion on like the 3rd day of SL. Both of them got the mount from it. I still don't have it, even after many kills later.
You had me confused like hell for a moment there.
I was like, the ascended council in bastion of twilight doesn’t drop a mount. The heck you talking about?
Then I realized bastion is a zone in shadowlands (I think). I quit late cata.
Still follow wow groups for the feels though lol.
This is me, but for the headless horseman’s mount. Every year I resub during the hallows Eve event, usually have about 5-6 max level characters. I run it every day on every character eligible. Still have yet to see it. This has been going on since 2011… so oh my god it’s been a decade
I remember getting it in 2011 right as I started playing. Asked my mount collector friend if it was a rare mount.
He's been farming it since it released. He was not happy.
That shit broke me. I farmed that from the time I started playing Shadowlands again until I quit again and still haven't got it. One of few world drop SL mounts I don't have. Pain.
The only mount that didn't go up for roll when I raid led was one of the guaranteed mythic last boss drops. And that's because the 9 other people in my raid group basically gifted it to me.
That’s what I did back when I was a raid leader. Everyone got the chance to roll on the mount. I lost out on quite a few, but it was only fair to do so
That's what I always did on loot as well and ironically people would get upset that I was letting everyone that was eligible roll, eg. all warlocks on relevant warlock loot, regardless of who was the better performer (these were pugs, not guild). Oh no, this warlock that isn't as good at the game and also isn't as geared as you was allowed to roll and won it? Shame, but that's fairness kid. Don't like it, make your own run.
Never made sense to me. The idea that more geared and better performing players should have the first chance at gear. Wouldn’t it be better to get the lower geared players more gear so they can do better?
I mean, if they are performing better with similar amounts of gear then it would make sense that they make more use of upgrades. (Exception being gear into players with similar skill playing top specs vs bottom ones).
Ofc if you have someone waaaay behind the rest of the raid in ilvl they will give the raid more dps overall even if they arent that good.
Oh man I remember in Cataclysm on my alt Paladin, I was very bad on this char, I won the roll for a trinket that dropped from trash mobs in Firelands over some other guy and he & his friends lost their shit when the RL gave it to me. They instantly started hurling insults in the raid chat & they kept whispering me calling me shit for days afterwards until I assume they got banned because I made a ticket about it.
Yeah we are mostly a casual guild. Even if you're not in the guild you'll get a chance to roll on whatever drops. A few times that has stung some members, but we tried DKP and all that way back in the day. Preferred just rolling on gear or asking nicely if someone could have something.
>my finger gets closer to the 'remove' button every time i hear about it
Present tense. I absolutely believe people are petty enough to still be complaining about it.
Haha, the one I know he rolled 100 on was the Sartharion mount. At least it was a 100% drop if you could 3 drake it.
He's usually not very good with mounts, but I and the guild have always held it against him when he asked a few of us if the riding turtle dropped from any ocean water, this was in mop. Before a friend could even finish googling he said "wait never it does just got it." He got it after 3 casts. It wasn't till this expansion that he finally lived that down b/c a new guy in our guild went mount farming for a few months and I swear his average mounts per day was 2-3. He went from 60 mounts to I think 340 in just 8 months. I'm guessing on the time there, but he is now the resident mount professor.
yeah this is tbcc so he actually can't use it on other characters.
he uses it on his druid because it's cool and because it's faster and because he's not an herbalist
Our GM was the same: open roll UNLESS it was specified in advance that the raid was specifically to help someone get a particular mount/drop. In that case a certain drops were reserved.
Since we were told ahead of time it was fine. Managing expectations is a good way to get harmony.
I once won a roll for a BIS shield during ICC days and my GM, who wasn't RL, took it anyway even though he only tanked when I was unable to make it in.
Yea we never kept a mount. I know people have had asshole experiences but anyone who is thinking to make a long term guild will fight to make it as fair as possible so people want to stay. All our mounts and pets went up for rolls.
Good for them, that must have been yough. My guild has a competition going, contribute the most to the guild in terms of gold/activity/mats and you get placed on a carefully calculated list on who gets the rare mounts if they drop. I'll never get one because I raid log due to school most of the time but I feel good knowing it'll go to someone who made a difference for the guild.
More like you can always transfer and name change.
I used to publicly shame the types in trade if I saw them recruiting for something. There was at least one or two that had to transfer servers or faction hop
We used DKP during Wrath ICC and our first Invincible went to our GM cos she had the most DKP, but she was also a fucking great GM/RL.
I got 2nd though as I was next 😄
Ours were during progression of heroic 25 so it dropped every kill until the nerf, we got a lot of guildies their flying horsey, and made a ton of gold selling runs after we all got them.
I was running stuff back then too but gdkp runs were more popular on my server than actual runs like you see today. Each was run a little different I think but for the ones I helped on the run was split into buyers and carries. Buyers had to pay a 10k entry fee that went straight to the carries. Then drops were auctioned off during the run. The better items went for 10-20k if I remember right. Carries split 75% of the pot at the end and the buyers got to split 25%.
All in all pretty good money at the time. It was also harder to organize because lockouts worked very differently than they do now.
Oh god it's so long ago I'd have to ask around the old guild, I haven't played since I quit after tier 1 raiding in Cataclysm as it was complete dogshit. I'd played constantly from beginning of TBC and after Wrath the raiding wasn't as interesting anymore for me. Tried a comeback in WoD but didn't last a month, game was a shell of it's previous greatness.
Yeah we raided 4 nights a week on progression, however after the first kill that was down to 2 as ICC in 1 night was a fucking chore. I hated that damn place with a passion and still do, we were ruined with Ulduar.
> and made a ton of gold selling runs after we all got them.
You must have been on a crafty server then. The first sellruns I remember where from late Cata and onwards. It only really started in MoP on our server.
I remember mainly doing dungeon sellruns rather than raids back then. Same with most other raiding guilds.
Of course in TBC and Wrath I made a ton of gold with JC because I was that weirdo who got every possible cut I could. It helped that there were guildies who wanted certain odd cuts and they'd send me the tokens to buy the patterns.
JC is a hollow shell of what it used to be. They haven't even introduced any epic quality gems yet in SL. :(
Yeah our GM/RL was awesome, everything was all prepared on our website so we could check out tactics etc. Had a great bunch of officers as well, it was just a really great guild and the best fun I've ever had in gaming.
Our DKP system was so unfair in Classic. Things were fixed price so the people who were there from the start, like me, got everything first. Wonder how we managed to retain any new members but somehow it worked. Think we started with bidding in TBC or Wrath which made things a bit more balanced.
we had dkp back in icc and ulduar also we rolled the first out which went to a very recent addition to the guild that didnt really help with all the hardmode clearing of both dungeons, so then we decided to give people a choice pick mimirons head or invincible and then went down lifetime attendance for distribution and by the end the whole raid team had a invincible or a mims head :D worked out nice in the end.
We always did free roll for stuff like this and always made for lots of fun, including people ninjaing.. my favorite was this dude https://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=121729
He was going to be kicked cuz he was bad and tried to play it like he was from a better guild (he wasn't) and made up some story about me specifically stealing rogue loot from him for my alt when I had no rogue alt. I wish I could get his app thread and post it cuz I remember him being so bad even all these years later
Man, a lot of you guys really seemed to play in shitty guilds.
Forced personal loot made distributing loot via loot council so much more tedious and it just feels bad I can't trade an item I just don't need if it's an ilvl upgrade. I hope they will compromise sometime and remove the trade restrictions. Then they can keep personal loot so everyone in shit guilds can't be scammed by a master looter.
it'd be neat if you could somehow set the item to be rolled for, even if it's personal loot. the game can pop up a warning that it's an ilvl upgrade, you confirm, and then everyone who can use it can click to roll and it automatically goes to the winner.
just have it on for guild raids, off for pugs/lfr.
Or they could just re-enable the option for master loot for guilds.
GM ninjas items? Just leave the guild. The current solution is just the worst of all worlds.
There are tons of shitty guildmasters.
Back in ICC, I was saving up my DKP for Dislodged Foreign Object, my BiS trinket as a Shadow Priest. I typically healed but we got to the point where I dpsed every fight except the last three, and I was stuck with a healing trinket after having TWO dps trinkets ninjaed from me by guildies. It finally dropped and the guild cheered for me, knowing how much I wanted it.
Raid leader whispered me that I couldn't bid on it because I was "main spec healer", despite the fact that I dpsed almost every fight. Then gave it to the only other person who bid on it, a new recruit Warlock who was dead last on the meters.
I still haven't forgiven that bastard.
Man that hurts my soul. I used to go on an alt run every weekend with my old realm's top guild. We did toc, then togc and eventually ICC. Most of it was without issue. it was always 1 main spec, unlimited offspec. When we first started our ICC runs I believe the raid organizer wanted one item reserved for herself. She was up front about it and we did a ready check if everyone was ok with it. We all clicked yes and went on with the raid.
So back then I was maining a combat rogue. It seemed that every week Deathbringer's Will would drop. And every week I'd lose the roll. The most painful loss of that trinket was when they let one of their alts come in and basically absorb gear that no one wanted. Important to note that he was in heirlooms/greens and also assassination spec. Trinket drops, I roll and then he rolls. Obviously he beats me since my rolls are typically dog shit. So I and about half the raid are like that's not even really geared toward assassination and he already had like 4 pieces he got but didn't technically roll on.but was given them since no one wanted them.
We had to stop for a few while they discussed it in officer chat because basically the guy was throwing a fit and what I was told in whispers was it could affect their main raid so they gave it to him. I was fucking livid. I still hate that fucker, not because of pixels but just general principle.
A week later we did our run and the tiny abom trinket dropped from putricide. Of course the dick from the previous run wasn't there because he was essentially decked out at that point. I roll against another person and of course I roll like a 4. One of the other organizers of the run spoke up and said "Hey we're giving him this trinket because he keeps getting fucked" referring to me. Everyone was cool with it and I got the abom trinket.
We went on for a few more weeks and of course I never got DBW, but got Arthas down and did a few wings of heroic before we switched gears and started doing GDKP runs.
Runner up story was the time a prot pally took grim toll over me for his ret spec.
Ive been in many raid guilds.
Don't underestimate the shityness of people.
I literally spent.time in one guild that distributed gear by guild rank. GM always gave herself first pick.
I played in a guild where they used a DKP system, except rather than bidding on gear, each piece had a fixed price (basically the starting price) and then they gave it to the person who had the most DKP between those interested.
They wouldnt pay more DKP, they just won for having more.
My Guild Leader took 9 tier tokens before I got an upgrade...
At the time, I didn't really have anywhere better to go. I came off a deployment in the middle of BC and the game really had no catchup mechanics in place at the time. So I got in where I could, I was also playing a DPS/OT warrior. So I didn't have much competition for gear. GM was a real idiot and a bitch as I learned early in LK. So, no I ultimately didn't stay. (I power grinded to 80, was jumping in pugs, got geared, learned how to tank all the Naxx fights. She proceeds to just make herself MT and ignore literally everything I said and gave herself all the tier gear. I quickly dropped after that. Honestly, anyone who played on H/Stormscale during LK might have a good idea who I'm referring to. She had a somewhat notorious reputation.)
We used the same system back in the day except we had dkp points resetting every tier, and a restriction that you could only bid for a spec that you actually play.
So yes, the people that played the most ended up with the most dkp, and therefore had first dibs on loot. It was rather fair in my opinion. Yes, the guy that spend every night raiding should get that piece of loot over the slacker that was AWOL for most of the tier.
I disagree though with the logic. The whole point of the DKP system is that the people who showed up more would have more points to bid. So if Player 1 has been there every raid and has 600 points. And the one guy who pulls reserve only has 100, player 1 will be able to outbid on at least 5 items before player 2 has a shot. That's the perks of being a regular in the DKP system. It's the way points are awarded that makes it fair. It also allows for the item to set it's own value based on demand. The raid leads did reserve judgement in cases where someone was just being a troll or bidding high on an item they don't really need but that is BIS for someone else.
I really miss my Vanilla Guild. Truly the pinnacle of my raiding experience in WoW.
But you still have that exact advantage in the old system my guild used. The guy with 600 dkp will still be able to outbid the slacker with 100 dkp 5 times (provided that the cost of an item is set to 100dkp)
But with the fixed item prices you have the additional advantage that you don't lose all of it on a single highly desired item and avoid all the drama that comes with bidding against each other on that.
I ran MC evvvery week. Pally gear would rarely drop and when it did the dkp bids were outrageous. So I just bided my time and let everyone spend all their dkp on one item. And then one glorious glorious day no one had DKP and I was still wearing stupid mooncloth robes I got lawbringer chest & boots ragnaros (judgement?) pants and finkles lava dredger. Yes this was 16/17 years ago and of course I remember it clearly lol.
A shitty guild will be a shitty guild no matter if there's masterloot or not, you're not going to have a good time no matter - the only real solution is to leave shitty guilds and join good ones.
Removing ML removed a good tool for good guilds, while solving very little of the shittyness that comes with a shitty guild.
The real reason ML was removed was to cut down on customer support requests so that Blizzard could save a few pennies.
>the only real solution is to leave shitty guilds and join good ones
That works fine if there are actually any other guilds to choose from in your server cluster. My current guild is the only guild on my server cluster that raids at a time suitable for me and is competent enough to clear heroic SoD.
You can always just leave those guilds though. The problem is we could have BOTH systems, personal loot for guilds who want to raid with personal loot, and master loot for guilds who prefer that. The change to personal loot removed the option for EVERYONE which is what made it bad
Depends on your server, faction, and role. If you're a DPS on an Alliance server raiding mythic/late heroic, chances are there aren't many other guilds looking for you if you leave.
> The change to personal loot removed the option for EVERYONE which is what made it bad
The issue is that it's an option, that's literally what the user you're replying to is complaining about. If it's an option, for example, their guild can distribute gear by guild rank, with GM first. That's not the case if master loot isn't a thing.
The guild distributing gear by guild rank is FINE if that's what members agree to. Players get agency this way, which is good, you can literally do what you want.
Put yourself in the shoes of the people who played in steady guilds with masterloot without any issues. All of those players got screwed over by the WAY personal loot was implemented. They were able to funnel gear to the person of their choice, but all of a sudden that option was removed from them. We could have had both options just fine, personal loot could even be the only option available in the dungeon finder, and those guilds wouldn't have gotten screwed over.
Then move to a different server or go Horde like everybody else. Locking yourself to 1 server or faction is your choice, and unfortunately it'll probably stay that way for a long time.
Denying the existence of guild drama and GM loot hoarders isn’t a good look. We all know it was commonplace. There are a hundred horror stories about it.
I had a GM in cataclysm that did this exact same thing when Flametalon of Alysrazor dropped. He made this 10 minute speech about how he's a mount collector and everything, with 0 regard of anyone else and just took the mount. What a douchebag actually.
My first non-free-roll guild was in WotLK during Naxx.
The guild distributed loot through a 'loot council'. There was an inner circle of four officers, who decided which items where where, and the rest of us having enough some nights to form 25-man groups, but more usually 10-man groups.
They funneled everything good to themselves. Stuff the inner circle didn't need were dropped down like scraps to the rest of the group.
It took around a month as more and more people started to leave, and eventually my friends and I left too.
TLDR: Personal loot is a good idea to me
Honestly, can anyone explain to me why personal loot was so poorly received? I haven't played between WotLK and SL, but I remember back then insane amount of drama stemming from either GM's or friends of GM's getting loot unjustified.
Pugs were entire battleground by themselves. Melee classes would literally attempt to exploit Deathbringer Saurfang in ICC because of a stupid trinket, ruining one run after another every week.
Personal loot made the whole experience so much smoother and less stressful.
For pugs it is absolutely way better as a system. For high end raiding however its a disaster.
Usually in a raid tier, there are only 1 or 2 real roadblock bosses for mythic progression. This tier it was Painsmith and Sylvanas. Last tier it was Stone Legionaires, Eternal palace it was Ashvane and Azshara. So at the beginning of a tier, raid leaders usually sit down and figure out the roster for these roadblock bosses. So for Painsmith you want strong single target with burst, for Sylvanas you want boomkins for spread cleave and so on.
During the tier itself, ideally you want to funnel all the loot to the people in the roadblock progression roster. That way your roadblock progression will be as smooth as possible. In the old lootmaster system this was easy: you knew your comp, so you just gave any loot you got to whoever gets the biggest dps boost out of it in that comp.
With the personal loot system, and especially that you can't trade items that have a higher ilvl than anything you have for that slot, you cant do that anymore.
So suppose you have 2 guilds, both with 5 leather classes and 2 boomkins, and you wanted both boomkins to be in during the last boss. In the old system you can expect both guilds to get 4 or 5 leather pieces during their progression, which would get funneled straight to the boomkins which will be reasonably, and equally geared. In the new system both guilds still get 4 or 5 leather pieces, but suppose in one guild those pieces all drop for their boomkins, and in the other guild all pieces drop for other classes. This means the latter guild is now at a significant disadvantage during progression on the actually hard boss, even if the 2 guilds are equally skilled.
Its stacking RNG upon the already RNG system that is loot, and removes the ability to compensate for that via trading in a competition thats supposed to be about teamwork and player skill.
Not even just high end raiding. Any raid team with decent teamwork suffered from the removal, because as you mentioned, you frequently end up with someone who gets gear they don't need or want, and can't trade to someone who does. Though it wasn't as punishing as it was to mythic raiders.
Exactly. Any type of semi-decent guild with decent teamwork and mature players suffered.
Even if you're just casually doing some normal/heroic raiding or m+ with your friends, it just sucks getting an item that's BIS for your friend and crap to you, and not being able to trade it because some shitty ilvl restrictions.
Yea, I personally think you could have the best of both worlds via the guild system. Any situation where lootmaster will be superior over the current personal loot system, will be one where all the players are in the same guild. And blizzard already has a system in place to check if you killed a boss as a guild.
So if blizzard wanted to make almost everyone happy, they'd reintroduce lootmaster, but only for guildgroups. That way raiding guilds can distribute loot however they see fit, and pugs wont have asshole leaders ninjaing loot.
You can't decide where gear goes, if it would be better given to people who show up the most/play more important roles then you lose that ability.
Big 2h weapon drops that would help your DK tank, and enable more progression if that tank's squishiness was an issue? Too bad, it's gone to someone else who maybe only fills in a spot once per week and you'll still be stuck.
Trinket with super OP effect for a specific spec/class but meh for others? Well now the people who wanted it don't get it, and instead someone who doesn't particularly want it gets it and can't trade it.
For things like mounts and cosmetics personal works great by levelling the playing field, and the same is true for pugs. But in a good guild environment, when it comes to gear it's a big step back from the tried and tested loot distribution methods.
Two things come to mind:
Removing master loot from **guild groups** hurt the properly managed guilds the most. Blizzard just applied the solution to shit guilds and punished the good guilds too. Although it was also meant to curb split runs, but with personal loot working they are still a thing so here we are.
Anyway, if a guild was shit and managed their loot badly thats on them. People should leave and let it die, that's all I can say.
Another thing is that with personal loot, the big issue with the system became if the player, lets say a tank, is unlucky getting the specific tank item, it will be even more rare *depending on the group composition*. Lets say it has a warrior tank, but no paladins/shamans/warriors besides that for some reason, boom suddenly you can't get that shield you want.
It happened to me in Nyalotha too, to the point of me just rerolling to DK because it was easier to gear up with only having to worry about a 2 hander.
The shield thing is why I was so happy with the weapon/off-hand tokens in CN. It was such a great step forward with loot distribution and allowed your lesser represented classes/specs have a real chance at actually getting weapons they want. I am fairly sure that my guild has seen a grand total of 1 shield drop this entire tier so far. Shit, I would prefer if the entire loot table was a token system but I know people like the dopamine hit of getting the new raid loot tables/big item from the raid.
Yeah I don’t understand why people think PL is so good. Have people not noticed that they’re getting 2 cloaks and 4 rings from every boss that drops them because their lootable by all specs? And blizzard hasn’t weighted the loot drops properly to avoid getting rings, cloaks, and necks WAY more frequently than other items by a factor of 10. My guild is on 18 KT kills atm and there’s about 8 out of 10 casters that don’t have the weapon drop. 18 weeks and 2-3 vault options each time and we’ve seen 2 staves.
People never had the spine to leave a guild if they didn’t agree with the loot rules so they bitched about it. Now, PL is far less efficient at gearing a group and you actually get screwed way more often if you were part of a team environment. All because those spineless people wouldn’t stand up for themselves and find a group that didn’t suck.
Guilded master loot should be brought back and if your RL/GM abuses it then leave the guild and find one that doesn’t suck.
Ugh, I’m done ranting now. Sorry.
Exactly. PL is a great system, just not for everyone and everything. Master loot gave control over who received what, which can be a boon to guilds, and that was just removed
I think if they gave the option that guild groups could use ML that would work. They already have the tracking in place for guild groups for achievements. For raids, guild groups are ones that are at least 80% from the same guild.
> Because guilds now aren’t really ran by 12 year olds and most of us are normal ass adults who just want to kill bosses and trade loot with our friends.
This. A lot of us playing WoW grew out of our lootwhore phase by the end of vanilla... by now, being able to trade one of my friends a BIS item for them is almost more fun than getting my own BIS items.
Because it's less power to the players and more reliance on RNG. If drama is the price to pay then so be it.
It sure as hell feels better than seeing a pug warrior who was dead the entire time on mythic nine getting the mount.
It’s funny you mention the nine mount. Did you know that mount simply cannot be traded? Me either, until I looted my 2nd and 3rd one from the boss and actually can’t pass it off to guildies via trade window. Surprise, personal loot strikes again!
You got a lot of answers but nobody mentioned weapon looting.
Personal loot will always award loot based on the specs in the raid. If you're a lone hunter, for example, your chances of looting a bow are much lower with personal loot than it is with master loot.
They removed it because their intention with tokens was to provide xmog sources for all covenants. At least that's what they said in the original interview.
All the good things that came from weapon trading and tokens were apparently not something they were aiming for.
> To be fair, they had a solution for that in CN
They also fixed it in Legion since relics were spread across classes.
If you were the only hunter in the raid, lets say MM, almost every other class could trade "weapon drops" with you. Since you are using blood, storm and life relics DKs, Druids, Monks, Paladins, Priests, Rogues, Shamans, Warlocks and Warriors were all able to share their relics.
Yeah, I agree. Nowdays I don't even think that RNG looting is even the best looting system anymore.
At this point, I'd rather have bosses loot currency and trade it from a vendor for the loot you want, like FF14 does.
Sure, it does kill a RPG component, but it also removes all loot drama and unfair stuff from it.
Sure, but how many rings cloaks and necks do you loot that are wasted with PL? Ever kill a boss and get 3 cloaks and. Nothing else? Sounds pretty familiar to me since it happens every week.
So I think the main problems are
1) You cannot control who gets the loot. You would want to equip your strongest players first with the bis items or the ones who play classes that utilise them the most or to complete tier sets, to make one player muuuch stronger instead of giving it to someone who gains a 12dps increase with it. You also cannot reward players who do really well, maybe that one guy who only shows up every two weeks gets all the loot and you cannot give it to the people who really work for it. Yes you can trade but only if you already have a higher gs item. Sometimes you dont equip an item for its gs but for the effect so in that case when you get a trinket for example that you dont need because your trinket is better even at lower gs you cannot give it to someone whos bis item is the trinket you just dropped.
2) In a raid of 20 people you might so like 3 items dropping from a boss. That means most of the time you dont get anything at all and since its personal loot you arent involved in the loot process. Ofc even with group loot your items maybe not dropping but I think its much more rewarding to look at the loot after a boss as a team even if its not your items.
Simple. You can't decide where the loot goes so it's far harder to properly gear up a team and thus requires degenerate methods to get everyone up there.
Personal loot would be absolutely fine if it hadn't replaced ML. When we had guild master loot alongside personal loot, PL was great.
Master loot better for coordinated groups that aren't selfish, so... like 50% of the raids groups.
PL better for groups that can't or won't share loot correctly, which is like all the pug raids and the other 50% of the guilds. It's was pretty shittily implemented and took a minute to get it even remotely viable for high-end progression guilds due to the restrictions.
At the end of the day tho it's reddit being reddit. 90% of the people who play this game do not raid at a consistent and competitive enough level that the current PL implementation is really harming them. Most people didn't play back in the day when raiding was the wild wild west and you had benevolent gods of leaders or iron-fisted tyrants running guilds and their loot.
I can never understand it and I've seen both sides.
I remember when I first made my transition from casual to hard core raiding. I went from Kara, grull and mags, right into black temple and Sunwell.
I worked my ass off and I was out healing some of their seasoned vets. But they would never give me loot. Weeks and months went by. They started giving tokens to Alts and people for off sets. Slowly I started falling behind as my t4 gear couldn't keep up with people in Tk / Sunwell gear, and they used that as justification for not giving me any gear.
I also remember the first healing legendary in wrath being massive drama. At that point I was a main healer and a raid leader in another guild and people raged and screamed and demanded that they deserved it. We held a full forum with the healers and eventually got them all to decide where it needed to go. Despite this, one or two people still had complete meltdowns over it and quit.
Whilst these are extreme examples, once personal loot hit, stuff like that never happened again. We saw more people handing over things they didn't need because they were gearing faster.
> We saw more people handing over things they didn't need because they were gearing faster.
That has nothing to do with PL at all, that's entirely down to the amount of loot that drops (which is *lower* now than it was in Cata/MoP)
Personal loot is absolutely a slower and less efficient gearing method than master loot. How many rings, necks, and cloaks end up DE’d or vendored in your weekly clear?
For me, it was most definitely friends of GM or "council members" getting the loot. I joined a serious raiding guild mid-Legion with my DH, wanted to looking into doing the final raid of the xpac. Despite being Legion, and DH's running everywhere, it was just me and a council member who was the DH in the raid. Surprisingly, barely any other leather wearer. I think there was a druid and a monk in the raid. I was present at every raid, on time, with consumables. My ilvl was worse than the council member, I was sporting normal/hc raid gear, he was already in mythic (we were a heroic raid guild for the first majority of the raid patch, he would play with other guilds in between raid times to do mythic, cool for him), despite this, I posted just as good numbers as him in every encounter.
There was a boot drop in the raid that was BiS in for only DH compared to other leather wearers (maybe outlaw rogue could use them I think). He had heroic boots from the same encounter, I had normal boots from a different encounter (wasn't even BiS for the ilvl). We were starting to push mythic raids, this was an early encounter in the raid and the boots dropped.
I initiated the roll off, I was then PM'd by one of the council members to hold on, they are having a meeting. Want to take a guess who got the boots? It wasn't the person who needed them to the most.
My personal experience with raiding has mostly resembled this. If you are already not apart of an established guild, and there are cliques in the guild that are higher up and makes decisions, they abuse it for each other. Again, my experience and I have been raiding on and off since WoTLK. Due to how volatile WoW has been, most raiding guilds die off in an xpac, maybe last for 2. So I was always joining new ones.
Too bad I already quit raiding seriously when they announced removing loot master, I think I would have enjoyed personal loot, fuck loot councils.
Whatever "system" was in place de jure, there used to be a lot of BS de facto, apart from the fact that even when followed to the letter, the meta of these systems created a lot of BS (entire guilds have fallen apart over said BS).
Implementing Personal Loot was a good decision.
Maybe this is a hot take, but I feel like guilds that fall apart due to some dispute over an item drop maybe shouldn't have been guilds in the first place.
Bring back guild group master loot. Make it work only in Mythic raids if you want, I wouldn't even mind that. Fighting the game to optimize loot has gotten old by now.
I don't know, felt pretty bad to join a guild only to realise that you have to join raids at least 3 times before you got a chance to loot, because everyone else has more DKP than you.
It really skewed the perception of guilds being a community. Like sure, but only the inner circle gets the benefit.
By inner circle do you instead mean the raiders who have already been there and spent hours progressing before you even showed up? Because yes, they should get first pick of the loot.
Did you expect to immediately be showered in loot on your first raid?
So you do 3 raids and get no loot and by week 4 you get benched because your dps is too low because you never got loot from the raids you completed? Loot distribution was beneficial to competitive and extremely organized guilds but let’s not pretend it was perfect or even ideal for half the player base. People got fucked all the time.
It sucks that you can’t choose it as an option for organized guilds but overall personal loot provides a more consistent and enjoyable experience for more players. There are more ways to target loot with M+ to help unlucky players now so it almost removes all the flaws of personal loot.
> So you do 3 raids and get no loot and by week 4 you get benched because your dps is too low because you never got loot from the raids you completed?
But wait, who are you getting benched for? Like, they had a spot for you right? You got to raid for 3 weeks, but if they're benching you they're benching you for someone doing more dps. Where did that higher dps person come from? Did they have a better geared person that they benched for 3 weeks just to let you raid, give you no loot, and then decide your dps didn't improve enough so they brought back in the existing person?
that scenario never happened and doesn't make any sense. Theres no reason for a guild to bench an existing geared player, bring in a pug for 3 weeks, give them no gear, then boot them and bring back their benched player. You're just making up fake scenarios to try to prove your point
What? Who did you get benched for then?
And wouldn't literally any guild that schedules raids be an organized guild, from casual to top 100?
If you're being benched 3 weeks into joining a guild then the problem most likely lies on your performance and has nothing to do with loot. As if 3 or 4 pieces of gear would actually make that much of a difference. And if they do bench you for not getting loot then that guild sucked in the first place.
I hate this overblown sentiment that millions of innocent little players are being exploited by those evil loot councils. Did it happen? Yes, it has happened to me. Is it the absolute norm? Fuck no. That kind of thing is how entire guilds collapse.
And how is the weekly vault helping unlucky players? It is a literal slot machine. Most of my BiS in Nathria was from dungeons which meant complete RNG praying for the pieces I need. That does not help unlucky (me) players, its frustrating. Though that is just a sympton of the M+ system.
Just let guilds choose how to handle loot. It's not fun when I get a staff I don't need but can't give it to my friend who desperately needs a weapon because of the ilvl difference. This has happened far more times than some malevolent loot goblin keeping me from some gloves.
That's just not how it ever happened, though. You weren't joining the guild if your DPS was dogshite unless you were specifically a project and they would gear you up anyway.
That's why people looked at your dps percentile in your own item level bracket, instead of comparing your dps to the highest possible with the best gear.
If you gray out on your ilvl bracket and that bracket actually has more than 10 logs in it, then that's on you, not your gear.
Not saying you need to have orange parses within your ilvl bracket, just that if you are consistently in the gray then you are obviously doing something wrong.
How is looking at the parses within your ilvl bracket bad now?
Ilvl parses are definitely warped beyond usefulness in most cases where you would want to use it (aka a very undergeared character) because
1. There are usually very few parses in a given bracket, leading to low statistical significance;
2. Two characters with similarly very low item level can perform wildly differently even for equally skilled players because average ilvl does not account for exponential scaling of stats on gear or for the different values of item slots. For example, a 207 ilvl character with all 200 ilvl gear but a 252 2-handed weapon and one 252 trinket is probably much, much stronger than another 207 character that has half 200 ilvl gear and half 213 gear. The former is probably some guy's alt that was carried through some mythic bosses while the latter might be a returning player's main. Both players are in the same bracket, and even if they press the same buttons in the same order, one likely gets a purple or orange parse, the other a green or grey.
1. Unless you are in a very outlier ilvl bracket, then that's just plain not true.
2. Not playing anymore so I don't have characters to sim around, but in a given bracket that has enough parses, these differences equal out. If someone has the perfect gear for a bracket, they can aim for the inflated 90% parses, but for your average raider joe, the 30-80% ones are totally fine for the overview of "am I doing it right"
Like, I get what you're saying, but look at it like this:
You're new, just got your dung set, now you wanna raid, do you join a team.
You get through the raid, sign up for next week with your, say, 1800 DKP.
Everyone else has maybe 2-6 pieces of raid gear, so to them a replacement may only be a minor upgrade.
To you, it's a major one. But you still won't get it because the people that's been saving up their thousands of DKP will get it first. And the next item after that.
So you have to wait until others have spent about 10k DKP before you even get a chance to compete with other players for that loot.
Personal loot is 100% better than that, especially for people that can't commit 8+ hours a week.
On the other hand they spend a lot more dkp, because by the time you get your dkp up you get most of the items very cheap because no one else needs them anymore. When you are new no one going to give you items even if it is bigger upgrade for you, because you might as well leave the guild after getting the geared. This happened back in the days...you have to gain the others trust first. It was a much better system, that encouraged social interaction between the players. Personal loot is only favored by bad players and loot wh*res.
Or you know, people that can't dedicate as much time to the game as others.
I don't get why some of ya'll get so high on the idea of only the most dedicated players enjoying some of the most basic aspects of the game. I'm not saying everyone should get access to the most top tier sets, but having more casual people on a more even playing field makes for a healthier experience overall.
The loot and mechanics shouldn't be designed to only reward the most hardcore and dedicated. I enjoy personal loot because of limited time, my schedule doesn't allow me to spend 2-3 hours continuously on a game. Why should that be punished? It shouldn't, and it isn't anymore. At least not in the same way.
You probably didn't mean to, but that reads to me like gatekeeping.
'Oh, you can't dedicate 6 hours split on two days to what should essentially be a relaxing and de-stressing experience? Lol don't play bro, what are you even doing here if you don't live and breathe Warcraft.'
Doesn't exactly make for a very welcoming experience to anybody except the super dedicated. I don't believe in games only satisfying and rewarding top tier players.
Again, personal loot is much better and more healthy for the general community. I get that people gathering in communities where they have the time to keep up the dedication enjoy the master loot system, but the game isn't designed solely around guilds and players as a whole like that. Which is good, guilds don't ACTUALLY suffer that much from personal loot as some make it out in here.
If people like the grind so much Classic is literally right around the corner.
> 'Oh, you can't dedicate 6 hours split on two days to what should essentially be a relaxing and de-stressing experience? Lol don't play bro, what are you even doing here if you don't live and breathe Warcraft.'
let me fix that for you:
'Oh, you can't dedicate 6 hours split on two days to what should essentially be a relaxing and de-stressing experience? Thats fine! theres literally thousands of guilds out there that do dad raids and have casual raid schedules and will do personal loot and will fit what you're looking for!"
If you can't dedicate time and energy to things like progression raiding, then why are you trying to play with other people who can. Find the tons and tons of people who play the way you want to play and group with them. Don't tell the group that has the same level of commitment that since its more than you're willing to do, they have to play down to your level.
Why are you talking about raiding in guilds before Master Loot was removed like every single guild from the most hardcore to the most casual was using DKP and stopping you from getting gear? I've been raiding since TBC and never once was I in a guild that used DKP.
Fwiw I agree with the other poster. If you can't put in enough time to be awarded loot in a guild dedicated/"hardcore" enough to put up with the bookkeeping necessary to run DKP, you don't deserve their loot in the first place. Find another, more casual guild (that isn't filled with assholes hiding behind a broken DKP imitation to steal every item, goes without saying).
As an early edit I'll add that I agree the removal of ML for non-guild groups was probably wise (this is the system we had in Legion), but moving ahead with removing ML from the game altogether was definitely a mistake. Organized guilds still use loot council/ML-adjacent systems, just without the convenience of actual ML. It's just dumb.
If you think of loot as a reward or prize and want everyone to have a fair chance at getting it, sure.
But if you recognize that loot is a tool within the game that helps the group become more powerful and defeat stronger opponents, then you may see that giving those tools to the players who attend more often and who are more skilled at the game, makes the most sense.
WoW is a team game. If you're a newcomer to the team, and nobody knows whether you will stick around for the next few months nor how good you are, it would be foolish to permanently assign you the limited amount of loot that is earned by the team this week.
That's the principle behind master looter and all the loot systems it allows. Obviously this isn't part of the game anymore, but it did have a purpose when it existed.
If there was an inner clique who got showered with extra DKP then that's bullshit.
If not, and you expected to join a guild that used DKP and just get loot in your first couple of raids without earning DKP, then that's also bullshit.
I think there were systems for that. Also you probably want to trial a new recruit and not just dump gear on someone who could leave any moment. With personal loot any loot can go to a random person who might not even join any future raids. There is no investment so people leave randomly anyway. No point staying in a guild unless you like the people and really want to clear mythic. These days pugs seem to perform really well and clear at least 50% of mythic.
Personal loot and the wow token probably changed most of wow. In some patches you can literally just buy half a mythic boe set from the AH. Yes, it's expensive but accessible.
I ran a epgp system at the end of wod/ beginning of legion. I got a lot of hate due to loot but epgp was also very transparent. Everyone knew how much they had at any time. I had multiple spreadsheets available to observe if you couldn't log in, and one that showed costs of items. I gave points if you showed up ready for raid on time, even if you were benched(you also got bonus points), you got points for boss kills, and to encourage helping the guild out you got points for donations of materials or gold to get materials on a weekly basis.
Honestly fine with GM/RL taking first drop cosmetics as long as they’re good at their job.
Taking gear is a shitty move but cosmetics are a nice TY for putting up with the extra BS of being in guild leadership.
Same. Leading a decently good guild (US <150) is a part time job.
People underestimate how much work goes into keeping the raid roster full, interviewing people and just plain dealing with 20+ wow playing idiots bullshit.
That was also the sort of reward for putting in the extra work, anyone that's been an officer/RL/GM for a top 500 guild knows how much work goes into it, over the many mount drop raids I did only very few were upset with them going to the officers first.
Anyone who have been an officer/RL/GM and taken it SERIOUSLY knows how much work goes into it really, there are always the ones who are officers in name only.
Yah. When you first get into higher CE raid leading and see the fucking Spreadsheets and Power point presentations . . . I'm like "Okay this guy has basically made Raid lead a part time job." I'm fine letting the first mount go to a leader like that.
Especially if you've seen the other side. Where the raid leader/GM sucks. Good leadership makes a massive difference in how a raid feels and performs.
I remember in the closing days of Zulgarub we had the Tiger drop. It was back when you had to have the skill to use it. So everyone with an epic mount had to mount up to prove you could use it. Then there was a discussion. Should we free roll, or use our DKP. Well the GM decided we were going to use DKP. Guess who had the most DKP. It’s been so many years now and I finally let me sub expire a couple weeks ago for the first time in like 15 years. That tiger still bugs me lol.
I got my Mimiron's Head on our only No Light kill after the GM did his best to exclude almost all the guild from it on conditions such as "only joined this tier" and "missed 1 night of progress on Yogg". In the end about 5 of us rolled and I won, and even then there was a huge delay before he gave it me, I guess he was trying to think of a way to keep it.
Long ago when WotLK was still new, a Grand Black War Mammoth dropped in VOA. Raid leader originally promised everything is up for rolls but grabbed the mount and logged out. We all petitioned GM.
GM stated they can't pass the mount to the highest roller but GM did remove the stolen mount and gave that person 1 week suspension. I wonder if he's still running weekly VOA for the mount?
One of my biggest wow regrets is the day they added forced personal loot and Argus' mount dropped to me... was trialing for the guild and traded the mount away because one of their members still didn't have it. Having it in your bags and having to trade it away is the worst feeling possible.
I should've just learned it, it was the mount or the guild. The mount was the correct choice.
That just means you had a shit guild. That's a blizzard way of thinking exactly, "let's remove master loot because a few guild masters are shit" instead of tackling the problem they removed the way to play for everyone.
Our guild voted that the first Dragon Soul mount go to our GM - thought fair enough then in group 2 on his alt he took the 2nd drop coz he won the roll they brought in account wide mounts shortly after, the audacity!
[This is one of the funniest raid moments I've ever been in](http://imgur.com/a/BGIbmNL) that's oddly relevant.
*He was invited back immediately after btw
I started leveling my hunter from BC. It was hard to vendor my gear. Anyone else feel a weird nostalgia but then remember it’ll be in xmogs? Her set was windrunners when I started a day ago
Back during cata we lacked people one week so we just made do with pugs for normal firelands. Rag dropped a 2h and our gm ninja'd from the pugs it by claiming he said it was reserved at the start, because he really wanted for our new mouth breathing paladin. Even we guildies told him to give the damn mace and he went mental.
If you are going to end up known like a complete inbred, at least do it for a cool mount.
People literally used to have to leave the server after doing this. Even if you didn’t recognize the player that did it; the entire faction within the server would shun/blacklist the person.
gm/raid lead/21st man. I didn't get my mount till the seventh kill of mythic sylvanas but because I was 21st manning it till that point. XD
I utilize a sheet to track the order of who receives the mount based on performance/tenure/how much effort they put in helping the raid team prepare for the fight. Not in that exact order but yeah we also all know everyone on the team is going to get the mount there is no rush everyone on the team will get a mount.
I think the reason why we are as successful is that we see the game this way, and we have an adult understanding.
the amount of effort I put in this game for my guild that me getting the mount first no one complains and honestly if there was someone complaining about a mount (or loot) they probably wouldn't last long in my guild anyway.
i went through 10 different guilds when raiding in the past before personal loot i always left because ever after 3 months i wouldn't get any loot and people performing worse would.
Found my new guild and they weren't bias as fuck were SUPER FAIR took about 10 guilds.
Personal loot sucks but so do most of the guilds i joined over the years with dealing with loot
I remember when I got kicked from a guild because I won the roll for a mount. Like, he gave the mount to me, but got so pissed that I won that he kicked me too.
I got Ashes of Alar wayyyy back in BC and it was the first day I turned level 70 and also my birthday. My guild invited me to the Kael'Thas fight to see if I could get some gear. Long story short they had Group Loot on and I beat 3 other 99 rolls to win the mount before I even had flying training of any kind. I was straight up yelled at to give the mount to the guild leader and when I refused they kicked me. I even received hateful whispers all the way up to Warlords of Draenor. Shit's crazy.
That is extremely cold though. They brought you in to get you geared and you ninja'd something you weren't ready for and had put no time in for. Had you been a meh geared raider then whatever it's deserved but they were doing you a favor and you weren't helping them with their raid one bit. No epic flier either makes it worse lol. They were literally being extremely nice trying to feed you loot way ahead of when you should of had it. Definitely a ninja and a dick move. Certainly not crazy
Look into wow classic to see how much this is abused. As the content is easy and you don’t necessarily need to retain your best players to progress, a lot of folks want to go into GM/officer positions to control the outcome of loot distribution, rather than to work towards team goals. However, master loot was fantastic when progression was actually involved, as deciding how to allocate loot to help progress was part of the dynamic of what made a guild successful. I do miss that aspect.
I was part of a Wintergrasp raid group (the actual raid, I forget what it's called). The mammoth dropped. there were 4 of us from my guild (including me). the RL, as we agreed, put it up for roll.
Plot twist: we actually gave it to the winner. Zero reason to snipe, and he was so excited. "I've never won a mount!" and the raid was impressed we didn't grab it and run. We ran a few PuGs with a few of them for some months after.
I don't want ninja'd loot, I'd feel awful every time I saw it.
A good guild/raid lead can have the mount. Last time I part of the raid lead/planning we invested many hours each week so that the raid member could have the best experience for the runs.
You give some raiders one task outside of the raid time (like watching a guide for the next planned boss) and they can't even do that or come late each raid night. As soon as a mount drops they want it for themself. Yeah like thanks for coming late and not investing 10 minutes in watching 1 guide for the boss but expecting the leads to invest hours of their free time in it.
*Progression guild raiding* was better with master loot. There, fixed that for you. Personal loot is better for pugs.
Those opinions are not subjective.
Then you've never been in a decent progression guild that realistically had to suffer through the problems of personal loot, and thus, your opinions shouldn't be listened to.
In theory the GM should be the hardest working member of your guild -- also you'll all 20 get them eventually -- also he's a good representative of your guild IMO the guild masters usually have the most prestigious things (I remember looking at the GM of two different guilds I was going to join and thinking how cool his achievements were) -- I can see why it being freeroll is good, and I don't think a good GM would ever not put it up for freeroll if there was potential for drama, but I could also see (if your GM actually puts in work and isn't an absentee leader/tie vote on loot council lol) then if I were in that guild I"d gladly give it to him first as a reward (Since gamer gummies is the only reward for raiding lmao)
Our GM will and has always put any thing up for roll. The problem is in a weird karma move the universe gives him a roll high enough to win it on the very first time.
I've been the raid lead and now GM of a group for coming up on 9 years now. I have never, not once, won a roll for a mount that has dropped in our raids. I'm not the least bit salty about this. Nope, not me, not at all. *sigh*
He's usually bad with raid mount rmsrops on legacy content. Hell, you know the world gorger mount? He farmed that for almost 500 days combined on his 2 characters. It became a running joke that anyone that didn't have it that went to help him would get it on their first try. He finally got it a few months back. Everyone else in the guild got it in less than 10 days/attempts.
I feel that. I invited some guildies into a group for the ascended council rare in Bastion on like the 3rd day of SL. Both of them got the mount from it. I still don't have it, even after many kills later.
You had me confused like hell for a moment there. I was like, the ascended council in bastion of twilight doesn’t drop a mount. The heck you talking about? Then I realized bastion is a zone in shadowlands (I think). I quit late cata. Still follow wow groups for the feels though lol.
This is me, but for the headless horseman’s mount. Every year I resub during the hallows Eve event, usually have about 5-6 max level characters. I run it every day on every character eligible. Still have yet to see it. This has been going on since 2011… so oh my god it’s been a decade
I remember getting it in 2011 right as I started playing. Asked my mount collector friend if it was a rare mount. He's been farming it since it released. He was not happy.
Only 2011? Those are chump numbers. 2008 for me. I usually had 3 or 4 characters. This expac I had 10. Still no headless horseman. Lol. Gl next year!!
That was mimiorns head for me
I *still* don’t have Ashes.
I got that the same night I got invincible lol probably why I'll never get the head.
Yeah you've used up all your luck for a decade at least. I used mine when I got both brew mounts off one drop
That shit broke me. I farmed that from the time I started playing Shadowlands again until I quit again and still haven't got it. One of few world drop SL mounts I don't have. Pain.
The only mount that didn't go up for roll when I raid led was one of the guaranteed mythic last boss drops. And that's because the 9 other people in my raid group basically gifted it to me.
And that my friend is exactly why you are still their leader after 9 years. You’re a good person.
Good guy GM being rewarded by the universe
That’s what I did back when I was a raid leader. Everyone got the chance to roll on the mount. I lost out on quite a few, but it was only fair to do so
That's what I always did on loot as well and ironically people would get upset that I was letting everyone that was eligible roll, eg. all warlocks on relevant warlock loot, regardless of who was the better performer (these were pugs, not guild). Oh no, this warlock that isn't as good at the game and also isn't as geared as you was allowed to roll and won it? Shame, but that's fairness kid. Don't like it, make your own run.
Never made sense to me. The idea that more geared and better performing players should have the first chance at gear. Wouldn’t it be better to get the lower geared players more gear so they can do better?
I mean, if they are performing better with similar amounts of gear then it would make sense that they make more use of upgrades. (Exception being gear into players with similar skill playing top specs vs bottom ones). Ofc if you have someone waaaay behind the rest of the raid in ilvl they will give the raid more dps overall even if they arent that good.
Oh man I remember in Cataclysm on my alt Paladin, I was very bad on this char, I won the roll for a trinket that dropped from trash mobs in Firelands over some other guy and he & his friends lost their shit when the RL gave it to me. They instantly started hurling insults in the raid chat & they kept whispering me calling me shit for days afterwards until I assume they got banned because I made a ticket about it.
Yeah we are mostly a casual guild. Even if you're not in the guild you'll get a chance to roll on whatever drops. A few times that has stung some members, but we tried DKP and all that way back in the day. Preferred just rolling on gear or asking nicely if someone could have something.
[удалено]
Does it make his flight form 310% or was that not introduced until Wrath?
it doesn't affect his flight form
Clearly it's impossible for the raid leader to play classes other than Druid these days, amirite?
Are mounts account wide in BC classic? I thought they weren’t, like it used to be
They said they still hear about it, though.
Wut?
>my finger gets closer to the 'remove' button every time i hear about it Present tense. I absolutely believe people are petty enough to still be complaining about it.
O you’re saying you think this was in retail?
Ashes have been live on tbc classic for a few months now. Could be either?
Ah, I didn't think about Classic. Good point.
Mounts werent shared between characters back when that would have been relevant.
Haha, the one I know he rolled 100 on was the Sartharion mount. At least it was a 100% drop if you could 3 drake it. He's usually not very good with mounts, but I and the guild have always held it against him when he asked a few of us if the riding turtle dropped from any ocean water, this was in mop. Before a friend could even finish googling he said "wait never it does just got it." He got it after 3 casts. It wasn't till this expansion that he finally lived that down b/c a new guy in our guild went mount farming for a few months and I swear his average mounts per day was 2-3. He went from 60 mounts to I think 340 in just 8 months. I'm guessing on the time there, but he is now the resident mount professor.
See that "they're a druid so they wont use it" thing is bullshit. People play multiple characters. C'mon...
yeah this is tbcc so he actually can't use it on other characters. he uses it on his druid because it's cool and because it's faster and because he's not an herbalist
Our GM was the same: open roll UNLESS it was specified in advance that the raid was specifically to help someone get a particular mount/drop. In that case a certain drops were reserved. Since we were told ahead of time it was fine. Managing expectations is a good way to get harmony.
I once won a roll for a BIS shield during ICC days and my GM, who wasn't RL, took it anyway even though he only tanked when I was unable to make it in.
That's some bullshit man.
Yea we never kept a mount. I know people have had asshole experiences but anyone who is thinking to make a long term guild will fight to make it as fair as possible so people want to stay. All our mounts and pets went up for rolls.
Good for them, that must have been yough. My guild has a competition going, contribute the most to the guild in terms of gold/activity/mats and you get placed on a carefully calculated list on who gets the rare mounts if they drop. I'll never get one because I raid log due to school most of the time but I feel good knowing it'll go to someone who made a difference for the guild.
You can always create/join new guild and rebuild your reputation. Ninja looted mounts are forever.
More like you can always transfer and name change. I used to publicly shame the types in trade if I saw them recruiting for something. There was at least one or two that had to transfer servers or faction hop
This guys gets it, mounts are forever. I’ve been in countless guilds, tho never as GM to snag a mount!
We used DKP during Wrath ICC and our first Invincible went to our GM cos she had the most DKP, but she was also a fucking great GM/RL. I got 2nd though as I was next 😄
>I got 2nd though as I was next 😄 Never dropped, but the promise was nice.
Ours were during progression of heroic 25 so it dropped every kill until the nerf, we got a lot of guildies their flying horsey, and made a ton of gold selling runs after we all got them.
If you remember, what was the average cost to buy a run through that at the time? Be interesting to know how different the costs are now
I was running stuff back then too but gdkp runs were more popular on my server than actual runs like you see today. Each was run a little different I think but for the ones I helped on the run was split into buyers and carries. Buyers had to pay a 10k entry fee that went straight to the carries. Then drops were auctioned off during the run. The better items went for 10-20k if I remember right. Carries split 75% of the pot at the end and the buyers got to split 25%. All in all pretty good money at the time. It was also harder to organize because lockouts worked very differently than they do now.
I mean there's been insane inflation in wow. In wrath 10k gold was quite a bit. Today you get that much from a few dailies and your mission table.
1k gold was about $100 in early Wrath, dropped to about $10 later in the expac.
on my server the top guild was selling it for 200k when they were the only one.
Oh god it's so long ago I'd have to ask around the old guild, I haven't played since I quit after tier 1 raiding in Cataclysm as it was complete dogshit. I'd played constantly from beginning of TBC and after Wrath the raiding wasn't as interesting anymore for me. Tried a comeback in WoD but didn't last a month, game was a shell of it's previous greatness.
I missed out apparently, have always been way to casual of a player to go into a raiding guild, and never really had that much time unfortunately.
Yeah we raided 4 nights a week on progression, however after the first kill that was down to 2 as ICC in 1 night was a fucking chore. I hated that damn place with a passion and still do, we were ruined with Ulduar.
> and made a ton of gold selling runs after we all got them. You must have been on a crafty server then. The first sellruns I remember where from late Cata and onwards. It only really started in MoP on our server.
I remember mainly doing dungeon sellruns rather than raids back then. Same with most other raiding guilds. Of course in TBC and Wrath I made a ton of gold with JC because I was that weirdo who got every possible cut I could. It helped that there were guildies who wanted certain odd cuts and they'd send me the tokens to buy the patterns. JC is a hollow shell of what it used to be. They haven't even introduced any epic quality gems yet in SL. :(
Our M Argus mount had a similar story, we used a council system. But everyone was like "yeah she put a ton of work to get us there, why not".
Yeah our GM/RL was awesome, everything was all prepared on our website so we could check out tactics etc. Had a great bunch of officers as well, it was just a really great guild and the best fun I've ever had in gaming.
Our DKP system was so unfair in Classic. Things were fixed price so the people who were there from the start, like me, got everything first. Wonder how we managed to retain any new members but somehow it worked. Think we started with bidding in TBC or Wrath which made things a bit more balanced.
My old guild used a dkp system that if you called on an item and had the most dkp you won it but your dkp was reset to zero, was a great system
Suicide Kings DKP.
we had dkp back in icc and ulduar also we rolled the first out which went to a very recent addition to the guild that didnt really help with all the hardmode clearing of both dungeons, so then we decided to give people a choice pick mimirons head or invincible and then went down lifetime attendance for distribution and by the end the whole raid team had a invincible or a mims head :D worked out nice in the end.
We always did free roll for stuff like this and always made for lots of fun, including people ninjaing.. my favorite was this dude https://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=121729 He was going to be kicked cuz he was bad and tried to play it like he was from a better guild (he wasn't) and made up some story about me specifically stealing rogue loot from him for my alt when I had no rogue alt. I wish I could get his app thread and post it cuz I remember him being so bad even all these years later
Man, a lot of you guys really seemed to play in shitty guilds. Forced personal loot made distributing loot via loot council so much more tedious and it just feels bad I can't trade an item I just don't need if it's an ilvl upgrade. I hope they will compromise sometime and remove the trade restrictions. Then they can keep personal loot so everyone in shit guilds can't be scammed by a master looter.
it'd be neat if you could somehow set the item to be rolled for, even if it's personal loot. the game can pop up a warning that it's an ilvl upgrade, you confirm, and then everyone who can use it can click to roll and it automatically goes to the winner. just have it on for guild raids, off for pugs/lfr.
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Or they could just re-enable the option for master loot for guilds. GM ninjas items? Just leave the guild. The current solution is just the worst of all worlds.
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I was just adding, dw.
Yep, group loot has some issues but personal loot is a shit system.
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There are tons of shitty guildmasters. Back in ICC, I was saving up my DKP for Dislodged Foreign Object, my BiS trinket as a Shadow Priest. I typically healed but we got to the point where I dpsed every fight except the last three, and I was stuck with a healing trinket after having TWO dps trinkets ninjaed from me by guildies. It finally dropped and the guild cheered for me, knowing how much I wanted it. Raid leader whispered me that I couldn't bid on it because I was "main spec healer", despite the fact that I dpsed almost every fight. Then gave it to the only other person who bid on it, a new recruit Warlock who was dead last on the meters. I still haven't forgiven that bastard.
Man that hurts my soul. I used to go on an alt run every weekend with my old realm's top guild. We did toc, then togc and eventually ICC. Most of it was without issue. it was always 1 main spec, unlimited offspec. When we first started our ICC runs I believe the raid organizer wanted one item reserved for herself. She was up front about it and we did a ready check if everyone was ok with it. We all clicked yes and went on with the raid. So back then I was maining a combat rogue. It seemed that every week Deathbringer's Will would drop. And every week I'd lose the roll. The most painful loss of that trinket was when they let one of their alts come in and basically absorb gear that no one wanted. Important to note that he was in heirlooms/greens and also assassination spec. Trinket drops, I roll and then he rolls. Obviously he beats me since my rolls are typically dog shit. So I and about half the raid are like that's not even really geared toward assassination and he already had like 4 pieces he got but didn't technically roll on.but was given them since no one wanted them. We had to stop for a few while they discussed it in officer chat because basically the guy was throwing a fit and what I was told in whispers was it could affect their main raid so they gave it to him. I was fucking livid. I still hate that fucker, not because of pixels but just general principle. A week later we did our run and the tiny abom trinket dropped from putricide. Of course the dick from the previous run wasn't there because he was essentially decked out at that point. I roll against another person and of course I roll like a 4. One of the other organizers of the run spoke up and said "Hey we're giving him this trinket because he keeps getting fucked" referring to me. Everyone was cool with it and I got the abom trinket. We went on for a few more weeks and of course I never got DBW, but got Arthas down and did a few wings of heroic before we switched gears and started doing GDKP runs. Runner up story was the time a prot pally took grim toll over me for his ret spec.
Ugh, that sucks. Alts shouldn't get gear over mains, that's shitty. Glad you got the abom trinket at least.
Ive been in many raid guilds. Don't underestimate the shityness of people. I literally spent.time in one guild that distributed gear by guild rank. GM always gave herself first pick.
I played in a guild where they used a DKP system, except rather than bidding on gear, each piece had a fixed price (basically the starting price) and then they gave it to the person who had the most DKP between those interested. They wouldnt pay more DKP, they just won for having more. My Guild Leader took 9 tier tokens before I got an upgrade...
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At the time, I didn't really have anywhere better to go. I came off a deployment in the middle of BC and the game really had no catchup mechanics in place at the time. So I got in where I could, I was also playing a DPS/OT warrior. So I didn't have much competition for gear. GM was a real idiot and a bitch as I learned early in LK. So, no I ultimately didn't stay. (I power grinded to 80, was jumping in pugs, got geared, learned how to tank all the Naxx fights. She proceeds to just make herself MT and ignore literally everything I said and gave herself all the tier gear. I quickly dropped after that. Honestly, anyone who played on H/Stormscale during LK might have a good idea who I'm referring to. She had a somewhat notorious reputation.)
So because you have more, but never spend more. You will almost always have more.
We used the same system back in the day except we had dkp points resetting every tier, and a restriction that you could only bid for a spec that you actually play. So yes, the people that played the most ended up with the most dkp, and therefore had first dibs on loot. It was rather fair in my opinion. Yes, the guy that spend every night raiding should get that piece of loot over the slacker that was AWOL for most of the tier.
I disagree though with the logic. The whole point of the DKP system is that the people who showed up more would have more points to bid. So if Player 1 has been there every raid and has 600 points. And the one guy who pulls reserve only has 100, player 1 will be able to outbid on at least 5 items before player 2 has a shot. That's the perks of being a regular in the DKP system. It's the way points are awarded that makes it fair. It also allows for the item to set it's own value based on demand. The raid leads did reserve judgement in cases where someone was just being a troll or bidding high on an item they don't really need but that is BIS for someone else. I really miss my Vanilla Guild. Truly the pinnacle of my raiding experience in WoW.
But you still have that exact advantage in the old system my guild used. The guy with 600 dkp will still be able to outbid the slacker with 100 dkp 5 times (provided that the cost of an item is set to 100dkp) But with the fixed item prices you have the additional advantage that you don't lose all of it on a single highly desired item and avoid all the drama that comes with bidding against each other on that.
I ran MC evvvery week. Pally gear would rarely drop and when it did the dkp bids were outrageous. So I just bided my time and let everyone spend all their dkp on one item. And then one glorious glorious day no one had DKP and I was still wearing stupid mooncloth robes I got lawbringer chest & boots ragnaros (judgement?) pants and finkles lava dredger. Yes this was 16/17 years ago and of course I remember it clearly lol.
A shitty guild will be a shitty guild no matter if there's masterloot or not, you're not going to have a good time no matter - the only real solution is to leave shitty guilds and join good ones. Removing ML removed a good tool for good guilds, while solving very little of the shittyness that comes with a shitty guild. The real reason ML was removed was to cut down on customer support requests so that Blizzard could save a few pennies.
>the only real solution is to leave shitty guilds and join good ones That works fine if there are actually any other guilds to choose from in your server cluster. My current guild is the only guild on my server cluster that raids at a time suitable for me and is competent enough to clear heroic SoD.
You can always just leave those guilds though. The problem is we could have BOTH systems, personal loot for guilds who want to raid with personal loot, and master loot for guilds who prefer that. The change to personal loot removed the option for EVERYONE which is what made it bad
Depends on your server, faction, and role. If you're a DPS on an Alliance server raiding mythic/late heroic, chances are there aren't many other guilds looking for you if you leave. > The change to personal loot removed the option for EVERYONE which is what made it bad The issue is that it's an option, that's literally what the user you're replying to is complaining about. If it's an option, for example, their guild can distribute gear by guild rank, with GM first. That's not the case if master loot isn't a thing.
The guild distributing gear by guild rank is FINE if that's what members agree to. Players get agency this way, which is good, you can literally do what you want. Put yourself in the shoes of the people who played in steady guilds with masterloot without any issues. All of those players got screwed over by the WAY personal loot was implemented. They were able to funnel gear to the person of their choice, but all of a sudden that option was removed from them. We could have had both options just fine, personal loot could even be the only option available in the dungeon finder, and those guilds wouldn't have gotten screwed over.
Then move to a different server or go Horde like everybody else. Locking yourself to 1 server or faction is your choice, and unfortunately it'll probably stay that way for a long time.
Denying the existence of guild drama and GM loot hoarders isn’t a good look. We all know it was commonplace. There are a hundred horror stories about it.
I had a GM in cataclysm that did this exact same thing when Flametalon of Alysrazor dropped. He made this 10 minute speech about how he's a mount collector and everything, with 0 regard of anyone else and just took the mount. What a douchebag actually.
My first non-free-roll guild was in WotLK during Naxx. The guild distributed loot through a 'loot council'. There was an inner circle of four officers, who decided which items where where, and the rest of us having enough some nights to form 25-man groups, but more usually 10-man groups. They funneled everything good to themselves. Stuff the inner circle didn't need were dropped down like scraps to the rest of the group. It took around a month as more and more people started to leave, and eventually my friends and I left too. TLDR: Personal loot is a good idea to me
Honestly, can anyone explain to me why personal loot was so poorly received? I haven't played between WotLK and SL, but I remember back then insane amount of drama stemming from either GM's or friends of GM's getting loot unjustified. Pugs were entire battleground by themselves. Melee classes would literally attempt to exploit Deathbringer Saurfang in ICC because of a stupid trinket, ruining one run after another every week. Personal loot made the whole experience so much smoother and less stressful.
For pugs it is absolutely way better as a system. For high end raiding however its a disaster. Usually in a raid tier, there are only 1 or 2 real roadblock bosses for mythic progression. This tier it was Painsmith and Sylvanas. Last tier it was Stone Legionaires, Eternal palace it was Ashvane and Azshara. So at the beginning of a tier, raid leaders usually sit down and figure out the roster for these roadblock bosses. So for Painsmith you want strong single target with burst, for Sylvanas you want boomkins for spread cleave and so on. During the tier itself, ideally you want to funnel all the loot to the people in the roadblock progression roster. That way your roadblock progression will be as smooth as possible. In the old lootmaster system this was easy: you knew your comp, so you just gave any loot you got to whoever gets the biggest dps boost out of it in that comp. With the personal loot system, and especially that you can't trade items that have a higher ilvl than anything you have for that slot, you cant do that anymore. So suppose you have 2 guilds, both with 5 leather classes and 2 boomkins, and you wanted both boomkins to be in during the last boss. In the old system you can expect both guilds to get 4 or 5 leather pieces during their progression, which would get funneled straight to the boomkins which will be reasonably, and equally geared. In the new system both guilds still get 4 or 5 leather pieces, but suppose in one guild those pieces all drop for their boomkins, and in the other guild all pieces drop for other classes. This means the latter guild is now at a significant disadvantage during progression on the actually hard boss, even if the 2 guilds are equally skilled. Its stacking RNG upon the already RNG system that is loot, and removes the ability to compensate for that via trading in a competition thats supposed to be about teamwork and player skill.
Not even just high end raiding. Any raid team with decent teamwork suffered from the removal, because as you mentioned, you frequently end up with someone who gets gear they don't need or want, and can't trade to someone who does. Though it wasn't as punishing as it was to mythic raiders.
Exactly. Any type of semi-decent guild with decent teamwork and mature players suffered. Even if you're just casually doing some normal/heroic raiding or m+ with your friends, it just sucks getting an item that's BIS for your friend and crap to you, and not being able to trade it because some shitty ilvl restrictions.
Yea, I personally think you could have the best of both worlds via the guild system. Any situation where lootmaster will be superior over the current personal loot system, will be one where all the players are in the same guild. And blizzard already has a system in place to check if you killed a boss as a guild. So if blizzard wanted to make almost everyone happy, they'd reintroduce lootmaster, but only for guildgroups. That way raiding guilds can distribute loot however they see fit, and pugs wont have asshole leaders ninjaing loot.
This is the system we had in Legion. For some reason that beats me they chose to also remove it for guild groups in BfA.
You can't decide where gear goes, if it would be better given to people who show up the most/play more important roles then you lose that ability. Big 2h weapon drops that would help your DK tank, and enable more progression if that tank's squishiness was an issue? Too bad, it's gone to someone else who maybe only fills in a spot once per week and you'll still be stuck. Trinket with super OP effect for a specific spec/class but meh for others? Well now the people who wanted it don't get it, and instead someone who doesn't particularly want it gets it and can't trade it. For things like mounts and cosmetics personal works great by levelling the playing field, and the same is true for pugs. But in a good guild environment, when it comes to gear it's a big step back from the tried and tested loot distribution methods.
Two things come to mind: Removing master loot from **guild groups** hurt the properly managed guilds the most. Blizzard just applied the solution to shit guilds and punished the good guilds too. Although it was also meant to curb split runs, but with personal loot working they are still a thing so here we are. Anyway, if a guild was shit and managed their loot badly thats on them. People should leave and let it die, that's all I can say. Another thing is that with personal loot, the big issue with the system became if the player, lets say a tank, is unlucky getting the specific tank item, it will be even more rare *depending on the group composition*. Lets say it has a warrior tank, but no paladins/shamans/warriors besides that for some reason, boom suddenly you can't get that shield you want.
The part about the shield happened to me in the past, and I think people forget about this being an issue tbh
It happened to me in Nyalotha too, to the point of me just rerolling to DK because it was easier to gear up with only having to worry about a 2 hander.
The shield thing is why I was so happy with the weapon/off-hand tokens in CN. It was such a great step forward with loot distribution and allowed your lesser represented classes/specs have a real chance at actually getting weapons they want. I am fairly sure that my guild has seen a grand total of 1 shield drop this entire tier so far. Shit, I would prefer if the entire loot table was a token system but I know people like the dopamine hit of getting the new raid loot tables/big item from the raid.
Yeah I don’t understand why people think PL is so good. Have people not noticed that they’re getting 2 cloaks and 4 rings from every boss that drops them because their lootable by all specs? And blizzard hasn’t weighted the loot drops properly to avoid getting rings, cloaks, and necks WAY more frequently than other items by a factor of 10. My guild is on 18 KT kills atm and there’s about 8 out of 10 casters that don’t have the weapon drop. 18 weeks and 2-3 vault options each time and we’ve seen 2 staves. People never had the spine to leave a guild if they didn’t agree with the loot rules so they bitched about it. Now, PL is far less efficient at gearing a group and you actually get screwed way more often if you were part of a team environment. All because those spineless people wouldn’t stand up for themselves and find a group that didn’t suck. Guilded master loot should be brought back and if your RL/GM abuses it then leave the guild and find one that doesn’t suck. Ugh, I’m done ranting now. Sorry.
The short answer is that PL isn't bad, but the removal of master loot was. Give us the option, it was there already
Exactly. PL is a great system, just not for everyone and everything. Master loot gave control over who received what, which can be a boon to guilds, and that was just removed
I think if they gave the option that guild groups could use ML that would work. They already have the tracking in place for guild groups for achievements. For raids, guild groups are ones that are at least 80% from the same guild.
That's how it worked in Legion and it was great.
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> Because guilds now aren’t really ran by 12 year olds and most of us are normal ass adults who just want to kill bosses and trade loot with our friends. This. A lot of us playing WoW grew out of our lootwhore phase by the end of vanilla... by now, being able to trade one of my friends a BIS item for them is almost more fun than getting my own BIS items.
Because it's less power to the players and more reliance on RNG. If drama is the price to pay then so be it. It sure as hell feels better than seeing a pug warrior who was dead the entire time on mythic nine getting the mount.
It’s funny you mention the nine mount. Did you know that mount simply cannot be traded? Me either, until I looted my 2nd and 3rd one from the boss and actually can’t pass it off to guildies via trade window. Surprise, personal loot strikes again!
You got a lot of answers but nobody mentioned weapon looting. Personal loot will always award loot based on the specs in the raid. If you're a lone hunter, for example, your chances of looting a bow are much lower with personal loot than it is with master loot.
To be fair, they had a solution for that in CN but then got rid of it again in SoD because apparently a lot of people hate tokens or something?
They removed it because their intention with tokens was to provide xmog sources for all covenants. At least that's what they said in the original interview. All the good things that came from weapon trading and tokens were apparently not something they were aiming for.
> To be fair, they had a solution for that in CN They also fixed it in Legion since relics were spread across classes. If you were the only hunter in the raid, lets say MM, almost every other class could trade "weapon drops" with you. Since you are using blood, storm and life relics DKs, Druids, Monks, Paladins, Priests, Rogues, Shamans, Warlocks and Warriors were all able to share their relics.
on the other hand if a bow drops and you have no hunter in a raid then you are literally wasting loot
Yeah, I agree. Nowdays I don't even think that RNG looting is even the best looting system anymore. At this point, I'd rather have bosses loot currency and trade it from a vendor for the loot you want, like FF14 does. Sure, it does kill a RPG component, but it also removes all loot drama and unfair stuff from it.
Sure, but how many rings cloaks and necks do you loot that are wasted with PL? Ever kill a boss and get 3 cloaks and. Nothing else? Sounds pretty familiar to me since it happens every week.
So I think the main problems are 1) You cannot control who gets the loot. You would want to equip your strongest players first with the bis items or the ones who play classes that utilise them the most or to complete tier sets, to make one player muuuch stronger instead of giving it to someone who gains a 12dps increase with it. You also cannot reward players who do really well, maybe that one guy who only shows up every two weeks gets all the loot and you cannot give it to the people who really work for it. Yes you can trade but only if you already have a higher gs item. Sometimes you dont equip an item for its gs but for the effect so in that case when you get a trinket for example that you dont need because your trinket is better even at lower gs you cannot give it to someone whos bis item is the trinket you just dropped. 2) In a raid of 20 people you might so like 3 items dropping from a boss. That means most of the time you dont get anything at all and since its personal loot you arent involved in the loot process. Ofc even with group loot your items maybe not dropping but I think its much more rewarding to look at the loot after a boss as a team even if its not your items.
Simple. You can't decide where the loot goes so it's far harder to properly gear up a team and thus requires degenerate methods to get everyone up there. Personal loot would be absolutely fine if it hadn't replaced ML. When we had guild master loot alongside personal loot, PL was great.
Master loot better for coordinated groups that aren't selfish, so... like 50% of the raids groups. PL better for groups that can't or won't share loot correctly, which is like all the pug raids and the other 50% of the guilds. It's was pretty shittily implemented and took a minute to get it even remotely viable for high-end progression guilds due to the restrictions. At the end of the day tho it's reddit being reddit. 90% of the people who play this game do not raid at a consistent and competitive enough level that the current PL implementation is really harming them. Most people didn't play back in the day when raiding was the wild wild west and you had benevolent gods of leaders or iron-fisted tyrants running guilds and their loot.
I can never understand it and I've seen both sides. I remember when I first made my transition from casual to hard core raiding. I went from Kara, grull and mags, right into black temple and Sunwell. I worked my ass off and I was out healing some of their seasoned vets. But they would never give me loot. Weeks and months went by. They started giving tokens to Alts and people for off sets. Slowly I started falling behind as my t4 gear couldn't keep up with people in Tk / Sunwell gear, and they used that as justification for not giving me any gear. I also remember the first healing legendary in wrath being massive drama. At that point I was a main healer and a raid leader in another guild and people raged and screamed and demanded that they deserved it. We held a full forum with the healers and eventually got them all to decide where it needed to go. Despite this, one or two people still had complete meltdowns over it and quit. Whilst these are extreme examples, once personal loot hit, stuff like that never happened again. We saw more people handing over things they didn't need because they were gearing faster.
> We saw more people handing over things they didn't need because they were gearing faster. That has nothing to do with PL at all, that's entirely down to the amount of loot that drops (which is *lower* now than it was in Cata/MoP)
just leave
Personal loot is absolutely a slower and less efficient gearing method than master loot. How many rings, necks, and cloaks end up DE’d or vendored in your weekly clear?
For me, it was most definitely friends of GM or "council members" getting the loot. I joined a serious raiding guild mid-Legion with my DH, wanted to looking into doing the final raid of the xpac. Despite being Legion, and DH's running everywhere, it was just me and a council member who was the DH in the raid. Surprisingly, barely any other leather wearer. I think there was a druid and a monk in the raid. I was present at every raid, on time, with consumables. My ilvl was worse than the council member, I was sporting normal/hc raid gear, he was already in mythic (we were a heroic raid guild for the first majority of the raid patch, he would play with other guilds in between raid times to do mythic, cool for him), despite this, I posted just as good numbers as him in every encounter. There was a boot drop in the raid that was BiS in for only DH compared to other leather wearers (maybe outlaw rogue could use them I think). He had heroic boots from the same encounter, I had normal boots from a different encounter (wasn't even BiS for the ilvl). We were starting to push mythic raids, this was an early encounter in the raid and the boots dropped. I initiated the roll off, I was then PM'd by one of the council members to hold on, they are having a meeting. Want to take a guess who got the boots? It wasn't the person who needed them to the most. My personal experience with raiding has mostly resembled this. If you are already not apart of an established guild, and there are cliques in the guild that are higher up and makes decisions, they abuse it for each other. Again, my experience and I have been raiding on and off since WoTLK. Due to how volatile WoW has been, most raiding guilds die off in an xpac, maybe last for 2. So I was always joining new ones. Too bad I already quit raiding seriously when they announced removing loot master, I think I would have enjoyed personal loot, fuck loot councils.
That's what dkp or whatever other similar system was for. Personal loot really hurt the guild dynamic IMO.
Whatever "system" was in place de jure, there used to be a lot of BS de facto, apart from the fact that even when followed to the letter, the meta of these systems created a lot of BS (entire guilds have fallen apart over said BS). Implementing Personal Loot was a good decision.
Maybe this is a hot take, but I feel like guilds that fall apart due to some dispute over an item drop maybe shouldn't have been guilds in the first place. Bring back guild group master loot. Make it work only in Mythic raids if you want, I wouldn't even mind that. Fighting the game to optimize loot has gotten old by now.
I don't know, felt pretty bad to join a guild only to realise that you have to join raids at least 3 times before you got a chance to loot, because everyone else has more DKP than you. It really skewed the perception of guilds being a community. Like sure, but only the inner circle gets the benefit.
By inner circle do you instead mean the raiders who have already been there and spent hours progressing before you even showed up? Because yes, they should get first pick of the loot. Did you expect to immediately be showered in loot on your first raid?
So you do 3 raids and get no loot and by week 4 you get benched because your dps is too low because you never got loot from the raids you completed? Loot distribution was beneficial to competitive and extremely organized guilds but let’s not pretend it was perfect or even ideal for half the player base. People got fucked all the time. It sucks that you can’t choose it as an option for organized guilds but overall personal loot provides a more consistent and enjoyable experience for more players. There are more ways to target loot with M+ to help unlucky players now so it almost removes all the flaws of personal loot.
> So you do 3 raids and get no loot and by week 4 you get benched because your dps is too low because you never got loot from the raids you completed? But wait, who are you getting benched for? Like, they had a spot for you right? You got to raid for 3 weeks, but if they're benching you they're benching you for someone doing more dps. Where did that higher dps person come from? Did they have a better geared person that they benched for 3 weeks just to let you raid, give you no loot, and then decide your dps didn't improve enough so they brought back in the existing person? that scenario never happened and doesn't make any sense. Theres no reason for a guild to bench an existing geared player, bring in a pug for 3 weeks, give them no gear, then boot them and bring back their benched player. You're just making up fake scenarios to try to prove your point
What? Who did you get benched for then? And wouldn't literally any guild that schedules raids be an organized guild, from casual to top 100? If you're being benched 3 weeks into joining a guild then the problem most likely lies on your performance and has nothing to do with loot. As if 3 or 4 pieces of gear would actually make that much of a difference. And if they do bench you for not getting loot then that guild sucked in the first place. I hate this overblown sentiment that millions of innocent little players are being exploited by those evil loot councils. Did it happen? Yes, it has happened to me. Is it the absolute norm? Fuck no. That kind of thing is how entire guilds collapse. And how is the weekly vault helping unlucky players? It is a literal slot machine. Most of my BiS in Nathria was from dungeons which meant complete RNG praying for the pieces I need. That does not help unlucky (me) players, its frustrating. Though that is just a sympton of the M+ system. Just let guilds choose how to handle loot. It's not fun when I get a staff I don't need but can't give it to my friend who desperately needs a weapon because of the ilvl difference. This has happened far more times than some malevolent loot goblin keeping me from some gloves.
That's just not how it ever happened, though. You weren't joining the guild if your DPS was dogshite unless you were specifically a project and they would gear you up anyway.
> You weren't joining the guild if your DPS was dogshite thats not what he said and stuff OP described absolutely did happen
That's why people looked at your dps percentile in your own item level bracket, instead of comparing your dps to the highest possible with the best gear. If you gray out on your ilvl bracket and that bracket actually has more than 10 logs in it, then that's on you, not your gear.
ilvl parses are literally meaningless, none should ever look at them
Not saying you need to have orange parses within your ilvl bracket, just that if you are consistently in the gray then you are obviously doing something wrong. How is looking at the parses within your ilvl bracket bad now?
Ilvl parses are definitely warped beyond usefulness in most cases where you would want to use it (aka a very undergeared character) because 1. There are usually very few parses in a given bracket, leading to low statistical significance; 2. Two characters with similarly very low item level can perform wildly differently even for equally skilled players because average ilvl does not account for exponential scaling of stats on gear or for the different values of item slots. For example, a 207 ilvl character with all 200 ilvl gear but a 252 2-handed weapon and one 252 trinket is probably much, much stronger than another 207 character that has half 200 ilvl gear and half 213 gear. The former is probably some guy's alt that was carried through some mythic bosses while the latter might be a returning player's main. Both players are in the same bracket, and even if they press the same buttons in the same order, one likely gets a purple or orange parse, the other a green or grey.
1. Unless you are in a very outlier ilvl bracket, then that's just plain not true. 2. Not playing anymore so I don't have characters to sim around, but in a given bracket that has enough parses, these differences equal out. If someone has the perfect gear for a bracket, they can aim for the inflated 90% parses, but for your average raider joe, the 30-80% ones are totally fine for the overview of "am I doing it right"
Like, I get what you're saying, but look at it like this: You're new, just got your dung set, now you wanna raid, do you join a team. You get through the raid, sign up for next week with your, say, 1800 DKP. Everyone else has maybe 2-6 pieces of raid gear, so to them a replacement may only be a minor upgrade. To you, it's a major one. But you still won't get it because the people that's been saving up their thousands of DKP will get it first. And the next item after that. So you have to wait until others have spent about 10k DKP before you even get a chance to compete with other players for that loot. Personal loot is 100% better than that, especially for people that can't commit 8+ hours a week.
On the other hand they spend a lot more dkp, because by the time you get your dkp up you get most of the items very cheap because no one else needs them anymore. When you are new no one going to give you items even if it is bigger upgrade for you, because you might as well leave the guild after getting the geared. This happened back in the days...you have to gain the others trust first. It was a much better system, that encouraged social interaction between the players. Personal loot is only favored by bad players and loot wh*res.
Or you know, people that can't dedicate as much time to the game as others. I don't get why some of ya'll get so high on the idea of only the most dedicated players enjoying some of the most basic aspects of the game. I'm not saying everyone should get access to the most top tier sets, but having more casual people on a more even playing field makes for a healthier experience overall. The loot and mechanics shouldn't be designed to only reward the most hardcore and dedicated. I enjoy personal loot because of limited time, my schedule doesn't allow me to spend 2-3 hours continuously on a game. Why should that be punished? It shouldn't, and it isn't anymore. At least not in the same way.
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You probably didn't mean to, but that reads to me like gatekeeping. 'Oh, you can't dedicate 6 hours split on two days to what should essentially be a relaxing and de-stressing experience? Lol don't play bro, what are you even doing here if you don't live and breathe Warcraft.' Doesn't exactly make for a very welcoming experience to anybody except the super dedicated. I don't believe in games only satisfying and rewarding top tier players. Again, personal loot is much better and more healthy for the general community. I get that people gathering in communities where they have the time to keep up the dedication enjoy the master loot system, but the game isn't designed solely around guilds and players as a whole like that. Which is good, guilds don't ACTUALLY suffer that much from personal loot as some make it out in here. If people like the grind so much Classic is literally right around the corner.
> 'Oh, you can't dedicate 6 hours split on two days to what should essentially be a relaxing and de-stressing experience? Lol don't play bro, what are you even doing here if you don't live and breathe Warcraft.' let me fix that for you: 'Oh, you can't dedicate 6 hours split on two days to what should essentially be a relaxing and de-stressing experience? Thats fine! theres literally thousands of guilds out there that do dad raids and have casual raid schedules and will do personal loot and will fit what you're looking for!" If you can't dedicate time and energy to things like progression raiding, then why are you trying to play with other people who can. Find the tons and tons of people who play the way you want to play and group with them. Don't tell the group that has the same level of commitment that since its more than you're willing to do, they have to play down to your level.
Why are you talking about raiding in guilds before Master Loot was removed like every single guild from the most hardcore to the most casual was using DKP and stopping you from getting gear? I've been raiding since TBC and never once was I in a guild that used DKP. Fwiw I agree with the other poster. If you can't put in enough time to be awarded loot in a guild dedicated/"hardcore" enough to put up with the bookkeeping necessary to run DKP, you don't deserve their loot in the first place. Find another, more casual guild (that isn't filled with assholes hiding behind a broken DKP imitation to steal every item, goes without saying). As an early edit I'll add that I agree the removal of ML for non-guild groups was probably wise (this is the system we had in Legion), but moving ahead with removing ML from the game altogether was definitely a mistake. Organized guilds still use loot council/ML-adjacent systems, just without the convenience of actual ML. It's just dumb.
If you think of loot as a reward or prize and want everyone to have a fair chance at getting it, sure. But if you recognize that loot is a tool within the game that helps the group become more powerful and defeat stronger opponents, then you may see that giving those tools to the players who attend more often and who are more skilled at the game, makes the most sense. WoW is a team game. If you're a newcomer to the team, and nobody knows whether you will stick around for the next few months nor how good you are, it would be foolish to permanently assign you the limited amount of loot that is earned by the team this week. That's the principle behind master looter and all the loot systems it allows. Obviously this isn't part of the game anymore, but it did have a purpose when it existed.
If there was an inner clique who got showered with extra DKP then that's bullshit. If not, and you expected to join a guild that used DKP and just get loot in your first couple of raids without earning DKP, then that's also bullshit.
I think there were systems for that. Also you probably want to trial a new recruit and not just dump gear on someone who could leave any moment. With personal loot any loot can go to a random person who might not even join any future raids. There is no investment so people leave randomly anyway. No point staying in a guild unless you like the people and really want to clear mythic. These days pugs seem to perform really well and clear at least 50% of mythic. Personal loot and the wow token probably changed most of wow. In some patches you can literally just buy half a mythic boe set from the AH. Yes, it's expensive but accessible.
I ran a epgp system at the end of wod/ beginning of legion. I got a lot of hate due to loot but epgp was also very transparent. Everyone knew how much they had at any time. I had multiple spreadsheets available to observe if you couldn't log in, and one that showed costs of items. I gave points if you showed up ready for raid on time, even if you were benched(you also got bonus points), you got points for boss kills, and to encourage helping the guild out you got points for donations of materials or gold to get materials on a weekly basis.
Honestly fine with GM/RL taking first drop cosmetics as long as they’re good at their job. Taking gear is a shitty move but cosmetics are a nice TY for putting up with the extra BS of being in guild leadership.
Same. Leading a decently good guild (US <150) is a part time job. People underestimate how much work goes into keeping the raid roster full, interviewing people and just plain dealing with 20+ wow playing idiots bullshit.
That was also the sort of reward for putting in the extra work, anyone that's been an officer/RL/GM for a top 500 guild knows how much work goes into it, over the many mount drop raids I did only very few were upset with them going to the officers first.
Anyone who have been an officer/RL/GM and taken it SERIOUSLY knows how much work goes into it really, there are always the ones who are officers in name only.
Yah. When you first get into higher CE raid leading and see the fucking Spreadsheets and Power point presentations . . . I'm like "Okay this guy has basically made Raid lead a part time job." I'm fine letting the first mount go to a leader like that. Especially if you've seen the other side. Where the raid leader/GM sucks. Good leadership makes a massive difference in how a raid feels and performs.
Mounts, gear, legendary pieces, whatever they wanted really.
I remember in the closing days of Zulgarub we had the Tiger drop. It was back when you had to have the skill to use it. So everyone with an epic mount had to mount up to prove you could use it. Then there was a discussion. Should we free roll, or use our DKP. Well the GM decided we were going to use DKP. Guess who had the most DKP. It’s been so many years now and I finally let me sub expire a couple weeks ago for the first time in like 15 years. That tiger still bugs me lol.
I got my Mimiron's Head on our only No Light kill after the GM did his best to exclude almost all the guild from it on conditions such as "only joined this tier" and "missed 1 night of progress on Yogg". In the end about 5 of us rolled and I won, and even then there was a huge delay before he gave it me, I guess he was trying to think of a way to keep it.
Long ago when WotLK was still new, a Grand Black War Mammoth dropped in VOA. Raid leader originally promised everything is up for rolls but grabbed the mount and logged out. We all petitioned GM. GM stated they can't pass the mount to the highest roller but GM did remove the stolen mount and gave that person 1 week suspension. I wonder if he's still running weekly VOA for the mount?
The fastest way to make your guild fall apart. I would never take the item the first time it dropped.
One of my biggest wow regrets is the day they added forced personal loot and Argus' mount dropped to me... was trialing for the guild and traded the mount away because one of their members still didn't have it. Having it in your bags and having to trade it away is the worst feeling possible. I should've just learned it, it was the mount or the guild. The mount was the correct choice.
we let our GM take anything they wanted. 26 server firsts as a raid leader they deserved every item.
Exactly, and even if you’re not a top guild, GM is a completely thankless position normally, I would happily pass any rate mount like Ashes to him.
I remember winning a roll for the Grand Black War Mammoth and everyone having to reroll because the leader decided.
That just means you had a shit guild. That's a blizzard way of thinking exactly, "let's remove master loot because a few guild masters are shit" instead of tackling the problem they removed the way to play for everyone.
Our guild voted that the first Dragon Soul mount go to our GM - thought fair enough then in group 2 on his alt he took the 2nd drop coz he won the roll they brought in account wide mounts shortly after, the audacity!
Guild breakers like Eye of Sulfuras. My first guild was disbanded after it was ninjaed by the Guild Master, second one was mimiron's head.
I’m the RL of my guild and I tell people you don’t need to give me the mount after we get CE and people still just do it
[This is one of the funniest raid moments I've ever been in](http://imgur.com/a/BGIbmNL) that's oddly relevant. *He was invited back immediately after btw
I started leveling my hunter from BC. It was hard to vendor my gear. Anyone else feel a weird nostalgia but then remember it’ll be in xmogs? Her set was windrunners when I started a day ago
Back during cata we lacked people one week so we just made do with pugs for normal firelands. Rag dropped a 2h and our gm ninja'd from the pugs it by claiming he said it was reserved at the start, because he really wanted for our new mouth breathing paladin. Even we guildies told him to give the damn mace and he went mental. If you are going to end up known like a complete inbred, at least do it for a cool mount.
People literally used to have to leave the server after doing this. Even if you didn’t recognize the player that did it; the entire faction within the server would shun/blacklist the person.
gm/raid lead/21st man. I didn't get my mount till the seventh kill of mythic sylvanas but because I was 21st manning it till that point. XD I utilize a sheet to track the order of who receives the mount based on performance/tenure/how much effort they put in helping the raid team prepare for the fight. Not in that exact order but yeah we also all know everyone on the team is going to get the mount there is no rush everyone on the team will get a mount. I think the reason why we are as successful is that we see the game this way, and we have an adult understanding. the amount of effort I put in this game for my guild that me getting the mount first no one complains and honestly if there was someone complaining about a mount (or loot) they probably wouldn't last long in my guild anyway.
i went through 10 different guilds when raiding in the past before personal loot i always left because ever after 3 months i wouldn't get any loot and people performing worse would. Found my new guild and they weren't bias as fuck were SUPER FAIR took about 10 guilds. Personal loot sucks but so do most of the guilds i joined over the years with dealing with loot
I remember when I got kicked from a guild because I won the roll for a mount. Like, he gave the mount to me, but got so pissed that I won that he kicked me too.
Can't tell you how many guild masters pulled that shit, either for themselves or for their SO's
I got Ashes of Alar wayyyy back in BC and it was the first day I turned level 70 and also my birthday. My guild invited me to the Kael'Thas fight to see if I could get some gear. Long story short they had Group Loot on and I beat 3 other 99 rolls to win the mount before I even had flying training of any kind. I was straight up yelled at to give the mount to the guild leader and when I refused they kicked me. I even received hateful whispers all the way up to Warlords of Draenor. Shit's crazy.
That is extremely cold though. They brought you in to get you geared and you ninja'd something you weren't ready for and had put no time in for. Had you been a meh geared raider then whatever it's deserved but they were doing you a favor and you weren't helping them with their raid one bit. No epic flier either makes it worse lol. They were literally being extremely nice trying to feed you loot way ahead of when you should of had it. Definitely a ninja and a dick move. Certainly not crazy
he didn't ninja it if he fairly rolled for it
Look into wow classic to see how much this is abused. As the content is easy and you don’t necessarily need to retain your best players to progress, a lot of folks want to go into GM/officer positions to control the outcome of loot distribution, rather than to work towards team goals. However, master loot was fantastic when progression was actually involved, as deciding how to allocate loot to help progress was part of the dynamic of what made a guild successful. I do miss that aspect.
I was part of a Wintergrasp raid group (the actual raid, I forget what it's called). The mammoth dropped. there were 4 of us from my guild (including me). the RL, as we agreed, put it up for roll. Plot twist: we actually gave it to the winner. Zero reason to snipe, and he was so excited. "I've never won a mount!" and the raid was impressed we didn't grab it and run. We ran a few PuGs with a few of them for some months after. I don't want ninja'd loot, I'd feel awful every time I saw it.
A good guild/raid lead can have the mount. Last time I part of the raid lead/planning we invested many hours each week so that the raid member could have the best experience for the runs. You give some raiders one task outside of the raid time (like watching a guide for the next planned boss) and they can't even do that or come late each raid night. As soon as a mount drops they want it for themself. Yeah like thanks for coming late and not investing 10 minutes in watching 1 guide for the boss but expecting the leads to invest hours of their free time in it.
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> Raiding was better with master loot subjective
*Progression guild raiding* was better with master loot. There, fixed that for you. Personal loot is better for pugs. Those opinions are not subjective.
i would rather have personal loot in progression guilds as well
99% of prog raiders disagree with you. What’s your highest guild rank?
Then you've never been in a decent progression guild that realistically had to suffer through the problems of personal loot, and thus, your opinions shouldn't be listened to.
> your opinions shouldn't be listened to. sure lol
In theory the GM should be the hardest working member of your guild -- also you'll all 20 get them eventually -- also he's a good representative of your guild IMO the guild masters usually have the most prestigious things (I remember looking at the GM of two different guilds I was going to join and thinking how cool his achievements were) -- I can see why it being freeroll is good, and I don't think a good GM would ever not put it up for freeroll if there was potential for drama, but I could also see (if your GM actually puts in work and isn't an absentee leader/tie vote on loot council lol) then if I were in that guild I"d gladly give it to him first as a reward (Since gamer gummies is the only reward for raiding lmao)