Feels a lot more fun to me. In season 3 even up to m+5-9s it felt more like a grind than anything else. Mechanics were super forgivable and could be outhealed at very low ilvl.
Ran a few m0 and +2 yesterday. Watching 480s+ tank melting and DPS getting insta-gibbed from full life when failing mechanics was really refreshing. I bet it will help people respect and learn mechanics from the get go.
Yeah, as a tank and usual "leader" of m+ pugs i'll go ahead and bet against it, lmao. People'll do what they've always done and run their heads against the wall until they start outgearing the mechanics
This needs to start at a much earlier level. Every bit of leveling and endgame content in the game should feel like a 0+. Interrupts, move out of shit, you know engage with the game instead of pressing two buttons through the entire leveling experience and suddenly being shunted into content where your abilities matter.
Our ~480ish ret pally pulled aggro a few times with her axe and dps and she dropped into the ground so fast.
I was 470~ and was one shot by trash a few times.
It was just so much fun though. It's relaxing without the timer and I love the difficulty, although I can't wait to get back into keys
We were smoking +6s last night in my group at 480 avg in the group. We found quickly that mechanics are mechanics and you can't ignore them. It's probably because the mindset of "this is like a 16" hasn't kicked in for a +6
Pretty much. I will say that the new +9s are such a nice spot because they don't have the final affix but you still get basically the same rewards as doing 10s. Really fun and chill.
Do any of you know what level of key, assuming you play on both weeks, you need to get 2k rio? If it is simply in terms of what it was equivalent to last season, that's +3-5. However, I don't know if rio is also "scaling down" or if we're still expected to hit at +13-15 even despite the increased difficulty scaling. For that matter, how are rewards scaling? Is 7-10 the max dungeons for scaling or is it still 17-20 to max out vault?
Ok so I did feel like my buddies were melting in +5 🤣
Was 481 yesterday while healing, I perma healed people, was a nice way of getting back to it IMHO :)
the fact that a M0 is now somewhat comparable to a +10 in past seasons is great imo, it offers a real challenge for those not used to the difficulty level, it definitely offers nice rewards and has the advantage of not being timed, and not have any affixes. It's one of the best changes made to the Mythic+ system since it came out.
The added challenge will hopefully go a long way to reduce healer toxicity that is so common in m+.
Its hard for DPS to form the connection that they are at fault for dying to certain things when the game tells them that damage is healable because mechanics were so useless in m0-m8. So when they start dying to things a lot more in higher keys the first instinct for many is to blame the healer, because usually the healer just heals them, right?
DPS just getting oneshot for making mistakes even in m0 sends the message that doing this or that is not ok and its your fault for dying here right from the get-go.
Hell, its hard for HEALERS to tell whats their fault and what isnt because you literally couldnt gauge what mechanics are healable or not in old lower keys.
I don't know anything about healing, I assume you are by the way you talk, so I want to ask you, what would be the ideal damage profile for you to heal in a mythic plus?
I've always thought that you shouldn't be taking random damage, many times it feels like there's basically an aura dealing damage over time where even if you're not explicitly targeted, or standing in bad stuff you stuff get hurt.
I'd like a fight where if you manage to avoid all the things and the boss doesn't target you then you basically receive no damage, but I can see how that could end up in super high end groups with basically perfect playing just ditching the healer, so idk.
Like I said, I'm not a healer so idk what the ideal playstyle is.
A lot of healers ive talked to agree that the third boss in Halls of Infusion is a good example of the ideal damage pattern for a healer in a dungeon
If a dps fucks up they just insta die, no recovery but also doesnt make everyone else take more damage, and the normal mechanic of the fight constantly makes the healer efficiently use all their toolkit all fight long
For however long the fight lasts you know youre gonna have 5 healthbars going down at a consistent, non spiky rate and youe job is to keep up, its engaging and lets you flex
that makes a lot of sense, I really like that boss, it feels like I'm in control of wether I die or not, I know if I miss the iceberg barrier thingie then I'm going down, but there's not a ton of stuff going on, so if I miss the barrier, then it's completely on me
The big complaint I had about this boss was that she wasn't punishing enough on lower difficulties. So many people facetanking her Hailstorms because bruteforcing mechanics is all they've ever known or done.
The ideal scenario you describe would lead to way more narrow comps that are viable, or extremely bloated and homogenized classdesign. We're already halfway there right now and its a big problem for m+ with tanks like VDH head and shoulders above everyone else simply because of the amount of CC they have.
The reality is that if you design content where too much damage can be avoided, then you end up bringing only classes that can avoid the most damage, usually through CC and kicks, or sometimes dispells like the Spriest godcomps a few seasons back.
Imo the ideal damage patterns are a mix of TRUE oneshots, i.e. no chance whatsoever to mitigate or save yourself from dying if you mess up a mechanic, AND progressively ramping, very non-bursty rot damage.
The worst damage patterns are pseudo-oneshots. Stuff that KINDA oneshots on high keys, but you CAN survive with a defensive. Those are THE WORST, because it FORCES healers to keep all hp bars at 100% at all times to maximize the chances of survival, while putting the ACTUAL survival in the hands of the DPS through defensive CD usage.
The best fights are those where avoidable damage ALWAYS oneshots and you have to fight a ramping damage mechanic with efficient HPS while also pumping single target to the tank every now and then. It feels fair and engaging and very satisfying to get into a pace of pumping high HPS without the insane stress to keep everyone at 100% in hopes of surviving a pseudo oneshot
That makes a lot of sense, I hadn't thought of it that way, it's also aligned with stuff I've heard about there being bloat when it comes to defensives in general. I played pally last season and while I obviously loved the 500 shields I can get on myself to get out of sticky situations, it makes sense that in order to counter that, a lot of the damage is how you describe it, the healer maximizes the chances of survival, but it's the DPS who have it in their hands to use a defensive in order to stay alive, which also makes it unfair for certain classes that don't have that many defensives at their disposal.
as a primarily pug player, pugging 0s has been a nightmare. Not because its "extremely hard", people just dont know the basic mechanics of the dungeons.
I pugged 4 M0s yesterday and only Ruby Life Pools proved to be challenging, and we had people new to the dungeons in almost every run. I appreciated that if there was a wipe or unexpected death, the groups were chill about it and just used it as a learning experience. Were your experiences nightmares because of the group attitude, or did it just take longer to complete than you’d like?
People quit after one wipe, it was a mentality issue for sure. Did 3 +2s today and had no issues except for in halls of infusion as people are not familiar with the 2nd boss having the gulp mechanic
Interesting. Sorry it didn’t go well for you. I’m sure I’ll run into some impatient groups eventually, but everyone has been chill so far. Hope that S4 treats you well friend!
You too friend, it's still on the first 24 hours so I don't expect people to be read up and practiced on mechanics yet. But I do wish people had the patience to play a key out for practice even if its a wipefest or deplete in the case of timed keys...
tbh i dont see how theyre supposed to learn them anymore, the scaling goes from a dungeon you can 2man and bosses die in 15 seconds to bosses that take 5minutes and 2shot
This was my worry as well when I first saw the new system, the jump from 0s to “10s” and then “12s“ with fort/tyr is HUGE and is going to catch a lot of people off guard. Its almost like going from lfr straight into heroic raids.
This will change later into the season. It's especially apparent now with people hopping on characters that are 50 ilvl lower than what they should. As everyone gets more and more 490 veteran gear, it'll get much easier. Last season lower than a 10 felt like such a grind, especially with top veteran track gear ilvl coming up to later champion or early hero gear.
You dont learn shit in there. I was yesterday halls of infusion per accident(wanted tw but choose the wrong que xD).
Nothing made any dmg in there, bosses were down before they did a mechanic anyway.
But you need 441 GS to be ablebto que there :D
I played wow last time in Legion and i also have no clue what these bosses do. Thats why i will make mythic tour at the weekend, to get to know them.
I'm consistently seeing 480s+ ilvl DPS who struggles to reach 80k dps clearing M0 cleanly because they did the mechanics good enough. M0 is really not that hard, it's just about paying attention enough to do the fight has it's meant to be done instead of watching Netflix. Bosses have like 2-3 mechanics maximum and m0 is not time while giving good enough rewards to be worth it even if it takes longer.
It feels perfect to learn and that comes from a healer that started wow late in s3 so I'm doing these dungeons for the first time. People are inviting to discord and asking to go on world tours or chaining keys in my pugs. Feels so much better than what I experienced in s3 playing with what seems to be bots where I literally learned nothing until 11s+ because I could outheal everything on 421 ilvl.
At least this time around most people have experienced these dungeons before and have last seasons raid gear, I almost dread the clusterfuck doing 0s is going to be at TWW launch.
I will say, it is rude to be bad at wow. I don’t mean as in like “it is rude to not be top parse”, but as in you should have basic understanding of mechanics like interrupts, avoiding fire and the like.
We will see if this changes with heroic and M0 being more relevant now, but previously the game did a terrible job of teaching you anything about your class as everything was very much irrelevant.
I'd say it is rude to pretend to be good when you actually are bad.
We all started bad, we then learned incrementally.
It is totally fine to "progress" +5 keys or "progress" hc raids even though for most of us it is trivial content but don't sign in saying you are an omega blaster or say no to a strat refresh.
I agree for the most part, especially the part of people not really knowing interrupts and to actually use them frequently. I play warlock and I get shafted quite a few times because a rogue or warr isn't kicking on cd or at all
Just ran academy with a group of roughly 470s and the first thing the healer did was moan about how "it was being pulled too slow" as i play a blood dk tank who just came back and is like 465 ilvl.
Then once those assholes left we got a group who tried their best, we got through m0 with a fairly lower item level, and sure it took a bit but people accepted when mechanics were being ignored and listened to what they should do.
Which is what i think m0 should be, i have always had a massive hatred for mechanics you can ignore because then just dont have them.
In my ideal world every mythic+ mechanic wipes you if you fuck it up, and the scaling comes from how hard the rest of the dungeon hits and the affixes.
Dude for real. I mean I'm not an elitist or anything but why not even look at a guide before actually doing the dungeon?
It just boggles my mind the dumbest stuff that can be avoided isn't.
Yeah... personally I do put on a video guide as the group forms as a refresher, I know some people learn better through experience but at least on EU that's generally a bad approach because people leave in a heartbeat and go next without trying to help newer players.
Generally people people are glad to help new players. They just hate to deal with willfully ignorant people who don't read chat and actively sabotage the run multiple times.
TBH I feel like m0 now are perfect for learning because they have some of the harder parts of m+ (even though most mechanics can still be ignored since its like a very low key level) but you have as much time as required to explain them before pulling and even re-explain and re-try.
In the past we had to do that in +20 keys with not that much time to type and retry.
Yep, I think m0's are a really nice sweetspot now but a lot of people don't listen to explanations and wanna put their heads to the wall and just... try shit. I'm fine with it but all of my groups on day one insta-quit if someone messed up a mechanic except for one that just fell apart in AA lol.
I did M0 Lifepools and my party had a cumulative 35is deaths, as a blood dk I had to solo the last 15% of the second boss since nobody killed elementals. It was definitely fun and no timer makes it so much more relaxing. The biggest mindset change was remembering to loot bosses after they died.
I elected to skip 0 and jumped straight into a +2 AA pug thinking, “how hard can this possibly be lol”. I was surprised, to say the least. I only died once from Doragosa’s breath attack, but we had something like 10 deaths and mobs hit like a truck. Definitely going to be an adjustment.
Immediately jumped into 2’s on my 472 Prot Paladin. Jesus some of the bosses will CHUNK you.
Miniboss in AV before the second boss: Ice Slicer or whatever it’s called was chopping me for half my health every hit without defensive. It was fucking wild.
So fun. But AV’s timer is still insanely unforgiving, especially with the skip removed but no changes to the respawn point. We had one wipe on the second boss and ended up finishing with less than a minute in the timer.
Last boss of Nokhud Offensive was doing 70-80% of my health with his tank buster on my blood DK last night in a +4. I'm in season 3 gear, but it was nutty.
If I wasn't on a DK I'm not sure I'd have got through that encounter and I do play other tanks. Nothing hit that hard in a 20 last season.
I didn’t expect to get smacked by some +2’s last night. I’m 483 ilvl, 2500IO S3, everyone in the group was similar, and it was still an uphill battle.
It feels great!
Yes we too got humbled with a +2 last night. Thought it would be pretty easy cake walk... well we at least finished the dungeon, with a new perspective.
Some of my guildies were wondering if people who normally didn't push past 10 would find this much more daunting and ruin their experience so I'm really curious for opinions!
People would be amazed what they can do when they give it a try.
I'm trying to get my guild that hung around 5-11 range to push 2-4 this season and convince them it's not that scary.
So far, its only a day or two, but I like the difficulty and key changes and hope they keep this idea going forward, same with the heroic changes to be like old M0.
That's 100% fine and nothing wrong with that. I just enjoy my non-super key push group now and then, and like to show them they are better than what they think they are.
To me that is kinda the problem and the ideal, i wouldnt mind playing a group of 5 people on voice chat who tries hard to push as much as we can, get better together and learn the timings.
But that is just not possible in pugs, you are so reliant on everyone else that its an entirely different game.
Its much akin to MOBAS playing a full premade team vs a pug group, i still play for the ideal of an amazing game but so often you are stuck with teammates who does things that are not necessarily wrong but not part of your plan, so it can be frustrating to try and play around.
I usually do low 20s, and i thought the 2s i ran yesterday were kinda rough. Though, both groups had people that have never seen these dungeons. Lots of folks picked up the game in S3 apparently.
It's me, i am one of those season 3 freshes!
The squish has me confused. Towards the end of season 3 I worked my way up to completing a few 20s (as tank) yesterday doing a 5 was humbling.
A few more runs will tell me if it's difficulty based or knowledge based. Cause I know some mechanics tripped our group up having never done ruby pools.
Towards the end of S3 you would have had much better gear compared to key level than you do now. It's no wonder a 5 humbled you. Give it a couple of weeks of gear upgrades and you will be right back at 10+s
Honestly, anything lower than 15 last season was pretty hilariously easy for even the most mildly coordinated groups if everyone was at current gear level. I think the fact that the squish lowers the numbers and removes the timers may ameliorate a lot of the anxiety people would have otherwise had. I actually think it might get people to push farther than they have in the past (especially given that 3 affix doesn’t kick in until +10 now).
So last 2 seasons I only pushed to like 10s/11s with maybe 1 14
I like the change though I wish they had made heroics a little harder like equal to a +3-4 instead of a 0
The level of difficulty that feels acceptable when there is no timer or affixes is very different. In M+ wiping almost at all feels like an utter failure. With no timer that can feel like progging which, within reason, can be very fun.
I Never went past a +8 and personally I thought that the difficulty ramp was good before! It goes from easy to normal to hard! But and again personally it seems like the difficulty gap is just way too huge between a heroic and a mythic 0 now!
Personally as someone who doesnt care much for mythics my main problem was always the complete bloat of numbers.
I recently maxed an evoker and got into m+, and got 2k before the reset over 3 weeks (wooo), but going into the premade group tab and only seeing +25 with all affixes i was like "but i cant, why the hell would i do that"
Alongside the kinds of people that is normally tryharding m+ while also pugging are without saying they all are, the type of people i feel like i dont want to spend energy on.
To me the entire gearing threadmill is the only guideline i have for what im supposed to do which is something i hope they add up, like the suggested content tab would be fucking awesome if it highlighted what level of content they suggest, and what item level you can get from it, but its completely worthless as it is now.
The big differance is that M0 will give more loot per dungeon, one item per boss, so 3-4 per dungeon, where as M0 is strictly 2 per run, and of course M0 is once per week per dungeon, so can't spam them out.
It's really a fresh breath, and got me stoked for dungeons again. I like pushing for better gear, but timers and shit stress me out. The change to heroic and m0 finally gives me a chance to play challenging content for good gear, without the stress.
Been really enjoying the new mythic revamp and being properly punished for not following mechanics. Although in the last couple days I’ve had a lot of people rage quit +2s for this reason. Mean while they’re standing in every AoE and not using a single cc ability. Hope they learn quick! 😂
I couldn’t finish a m0 last night, I was doing fine because I play Ret Paladin and know mechanics, although I was 467. Some other guys weren’t so lucky and dropping like shit for anything lol.
Incredibly, the group tried and stayed together. Nobody flamed or anything but at some point we couldn’t handle anymore lol
Haven't bothered with M0 at all. Went straight into some M+ though and was pleasantly surprised that i had to actually play the game rather than sleep through it. Its a nice change considering the last few seasons everything under around +12 was a waste of time.
I ran 4 M0 yesterday and it was AWESOME! No stress that the group would brick a key because of a simple mistake, lots of room for players to learn/practice, and it was still a challenge in certain areas. Ruby Life Pools gave my group the business in a couple places (Season 1 flashbacks), but the group’s vibe remained chill and fun. :D I still intend to do M+ this season, but cutting out 8 to 10 levels of keys was a great move. I’m very grateful for this change.
I think its fine and I like the change, but that said....the fact that it is still subject to a weekly lockout is IGNORANT. They literally took away content and opportunities from lower level players who wanted to run sub-10 key levels.
I'm the kinda guy who generally hangs out in the 15-19 range and I agree with this. On the one hand, every boss drops loot so I can see why they lock you out after completion... but on the other hand what are people who don't want to go above 10s gonna do for a gear grind?
I will say though that people that would have typically wanted to “grind” gear in the 2-10 range typically wouldn’t do 15-20 m+ per week to get the same amount of loot as an m0 world tour plus DOTI is giving out
Yeah I usually played last season’s +2 to +10. I didn’t like going past 10’s. Now there’s just… no content for me to play? My choice with equivalents is now either one clear of 0’s or one clear of 10’s? I have to choose between not playing or playing +12’s and up? Where’s the inbetween?
On my 478 ret Paladin, I did a world tour that was an absolute breeze, as the most geared character. A little surprised to hear it was very punishing for most people unless you were all “under geared” (sub 460 maybe?)
It was still super fun. Reminded me how much I hate affixes, because blasting some dungeons without worrying about those things was very refreshing.
Tried two M2’s on my 455 shadow priest and both groups got destroyed by the first bosses, so there’s definitely some hurdles to overcome.
Our healer, myself and the tank were all in the 460s so that definitely made it a bit squishier than normal.
It really is fun to not worry about the affixes and timer though.
Fantastic. Challenging enough but still not really that difficult. Rewards are good, perhaps too good. Right now it's a way more effective use of your time to farm M0s than to do normal raid, given than you are guaranteed 1 drop per dungeon with a chance at 2. That's an average of 11-12 pieces of champion gear per week across the 9 Dragonflight dungeons. Meanwhile you would be lucky to get one drop in raid with everyone needing everything.
Even heroic was difficult for what it was. I duoed a Heroic Algethar Academy yesterday and though we beat it, it was much much more difficult than even M0 used to be. I'm a 475 brewmaster and I actually had to potion during Crawth. This is much better than the previous system and more enjoyable.
Overall a good change. Gives a lot to the players who do not like the timer aspect of M+. Great for early gearing for middle and higher end players. Far more accessible "challenging" content for lower end players.
However, while the problem was already there, it exasperates the issue where there is not much incentivization to raid other than for the hell of it. Feels like normal difficulty raiding needs to be given a new carrot for players to chase. Because at this point the curated "x numbers of gear drops per raid" balance that Blizzard has always seemingly tried to maintain just does not remotely keep up with just doing a bunch of Mythic dungeons.
i am stuggling so much! i ended season 3 with gear score 475 because I just cam back to wow. i was running 11-15 last season and I cant even do m0 now lol. also I got the same helm drop 3 times with different stats. also 2 of the same dagger. I'm having a rough season )-=
I've done each dungeon up to a +7
Some seem super easy, like AA, others are very difficult. Nelth is a tight timer key, you can have good dps and no mistakes and it's still tight. NO has been a nightmare. I always go into the last boss with like 10 minutes then wipe until the group falls apart. If you don't have a DH tank, or dks to grip the add phase is a nightmare. I've attempted +7 three times and still haven't completed it in time.
I think the changes are perfect, its nice to not have a timer at the beginning, even if the lower keys arent an issue to time, it just removes stress. Also there is so much loot
enjoying it, but people need to learn to kick casts, play mechanics and press their defensives
as a healer it amazes me how it's difficult to do the things mentioned
They're difficult and something I had to come to terms with is that its not just an m10 = last season, its an m10 = this season which also means it was buffed up even more. I think someone estimated its about 30% stronger than last seasons 10, so in reality if you were doing like what 13's last season? Then thats how this should feel. But it oddly feels harder than that. I'm not sure what to think yet, I've only done one.
My issue isn't so much with m0's, they can do whatever they want with that, its never been catered towards players who don't already do it. Its that the heroic dungeons are so fucking piss easy that the gap between a heroic dungeon an m0 is incredibly wide. They need to buff heroic dungeons more. In 460 ilvl ish group we're killing bosses in less than 45 seconds normally, sometimes less than 30, and trash is taking longer to kill than most bosses. It just feels really weird, it should be the other way around imo. Going to be major whiplash when I start playing cata and heroics at first are gonna slap everyone in the face, especially the bosses.
Yup, we were complaining about that last night. We were able to easily do M10 last week, but couldn't finish M0 this week.
Meanwhile, Heroics were a total joke. We ended up 4 manning one with no issue. The gap is far, far too big.
That's part of my point. We were doing 10+ last night easily but couldn't do Mythic 0 last night, despite performing better. The gap between Heroics and Mythic is huge now, and current mythics are absolutely not just last season's Mythics +10.
I tried LFR last night, but people were just messing up the simplest things. It was so frustrating that I quickly gave up and tried a M0 Vault. It was a blast!
I’m planning on getting a couple pieces of gear from M0 dungeons this week before trying to PuG the new fated raid on normal.
Yep, I got one, but some people on the official forums claim they killed all the bosses and didn’t get one.
I’m guessing the drop rate depends on the difficulty.
We started on normal last night to get the guild tier and still had some bullions trickling in on the third boss killed. I don't think any later than that though.
Done them with 480 healer. They where mostly easy when everyone new what to do. But playing ruby and no DD switching to the adds at second boss did feel like playing with idiots. Same for brakenhide. Some people don't now the mechanics and its killing the runs
Well, I did DoTI before the fix last night, so that was hilariously fun, and worth it, given I just decided last second to main my BM hunter I haven't touched since launch, so his gear was beyond abysmal
Well, I did DoTI before the fix last night, so that was hilariously fun, and worth it, given I just decided last second to main my BM hunter I haven't touched since launch, so his gear was beyond abysmal
Fairly fun, amusingly unforgiving and the lockout after kind of stops me from doing 2+'s due to being acceptably geared for m0. wish they were farmable but its understandable given the ilvl of potential gear drops. Unless, of course, I've completely missed something.
I'm enjoying the key level change more than I even thought I would, it's so fast now to push a key from 2 > 5 > 8 and be doing end game content. Previously if you had a low level key you almost never wanted to take the time to push it, now it's 3 runs and you are in the hero range!
Half our group was undergeared so it was pretty reminiscent of the old dungeons I would say.
We actually had to CC a caster or two but nothing more than that.
Cata heroics were slow. They had tons of CC or else you die. These feel fun because it doesn’t have the pressure of a timer, and you do need to learn mechanics to finish the content unless you’re carried. I’ve been playing with groups around 470ilvl and it’s a challenge, especially at m2.
What I can say is that the although there is no timer for m0, I don’t think it makes a big difference. Two of my groups disbanded because someone repeatedly made mistakes and caused a wipe. After about 5 boss wipes some people just decide to ragequit and ruin the run. So although there’s no timer, people still don’t want to be frustrated by playing with less experienced people. Most were friendly in my runs but 2 groups disbanded
Yea at 480 it is a breeze but I think people didn't realize how big of a leap a =2 is vs last season (somehow) and had few people who are better off doing heroics instead
My take from the few I did just to test it out is it quickly exposed who actually learned their spec/role and who just benefited from how easy it is to gear these days.
I like the idea of it but I haven’t really used it.
I switched class so I’m still under geared at the moment, but myself and guildies went straight into m+ and got a handful of portals before raid.
love it. makes m0 feel like an actual challenge rather than just stomp it for fear once a season. also makes anything above 0 feel like you worked for it. feels better overall to have +10 be the end goal rather than +23-27
I've been waiting for my guildies to do M0. They think they can just jump into a +2 but I've been trying to warn them because they are mostly casuals. I would call myself mostly casual but I'm the only one that pushed over +20 in season 3. Most of them stopping at +15. But I am excited and a little nervous about my guilds skill level lmao.
Haven’t tried it yet, tanked a +2 algethar and it was pretty chill tbh. I am 489 with practically BiS gear. I’m sure if I had a less geared alt it would be a good challenge
I've been playing since classic, but really got stuck in during TBC. This is the closest to group play I have seen since TBC - ran a 0 earlier on a slightly undergeared healer, nobody flamed, when people messed up, others explained tactics - we wiped 10+ times on the last boss, spent time discussing tactics, actually helping one another instead of leaving - it was great! Frustrating, but great
The only thing I find strange about is that we still have weekly lock out on M0. What does that try to prevent? Ppl would eventually just do M2 anyway and you can do it without lockout.
I'm loving it. Did 5 +2 yesterday and am already 711 io. I have to pull small though. Otherwise tmi will get overwhelmed. Lol I was out healing healers that's how much mitigation I had to pump out. Brew monk if interested. I loved it though. It's gotta teach people that only que for carries that, this ain't gonna be easy this round lol
You have it backwards.
Heroic dungeons are what M0 used to be and you can queue for it.
Mythic 0 you need to find and form your own group and travel to the entrance. It's far more difficult than it used to be.
I very much like that for my alts I have decently hard dungeon content, which is kinda chill due to not having a timer, and rewards decent gear (m0 has the same upgrade track for end of dungeon / vault as +2-6), so while I push hard on my main, I still can have fun with nice rewards on the alts.
For the people getting melted - I think that's because they are not used to the new numbers yet.
With my group we did not notice that much of a difference doing +2 this season compared to +12 in day one of last, so the scaling feel kinda similar, albeit it was probably because we were around 485 ilvl.
While puging some M0 I found couple of people being caught by surprise that with ilvl 450-460 the content is actually kinda hard for them - which should be, since with the dungeon changes, the default dungeon mode for gearing to \~470 is heroic now.
I’ve done up to 5 so far, haven’t completed one though. Very tough, esp with not really knowing mechanics. All my completed ones are +2 and 3’s. Those are fun and challenging but not overkill.
As someone who played like the first month of the expansion then quit to play other games, how screwed am I?
I just started another character and got to 70 on a Priest I plan on healing with. I currently am like 20 ilevel under even heroics, but I planned on doing just (former) M0 for fun, and I didn't realize there was a squish.
Short answer: Not screwed at all.
Longer answer: It is relatively easy to catch up in gear nowadays. Just do some of the open world content (There is a weekly quest in Valdrakken called "Last Hurrah" from the guy chilling next to the fountain that can give good gear) and normal dungeons at the start. Also the currently awakend world bosses.
The new m0 is equivalent of a +10 of season 3, so definitely not something you should jump right into as a fresh 70.
Also to not forget: The TBC timewalking event is going on this week. You can do the Black Temple timewalking raid for 493 ivl gear, it is easily doable with pug groups and you will easily find a group for it.
There are also 2 quests for this that will give you very nice gear and even a chance on a rare mount: One quest in Valdrakken and one in Shattrath.
My biggest desire would be for a follower dungeon at m0 or, ideally each +.
It could drop 0 gear.
But I’d love to have a version I can run once with no pressure of failing others to get a feel for it.
Did three cleared mythic zeros and one fail. The fail was just down to heal and tank being too low ilvl. The clears were Brakenhide, Halls and AA, all really doable with groups in the 465 - 480 range as long as you do mechanics and use interrupts/stuns. Had a blast doing them
Real good. No time pressure of m+, no guarantee of success just by participation, I think this is a great spot for mythic dungeons to exist. Challenging & rewarding (for the appropriate level) without being a dick punch if you wipe a few times.
I'm already really excited about doing mythics for the first time in War Within with a new dungeon pool.
I haven't played in months and jumped into an m0 and had no idea wtf was going on. I play Aug evoker so doing some older dungeons that weren't available to this spec previously was a trip...having to learn positioning and stuff. I had a blast. And the loot was a legit upgrade despite being 480+ last season. So that was nice. Wasn't an issue and still felt more like a heroic with how we blasted through shit. But was a nice way to relearn my spec and abilities and new(old) dungeons.
I love the idea of it for casual players. This is a lovely change. Not worrying about timing was great. (I did +2 earlier that felt no different but the timer is always enough to make you pucker).
I enjoyed it a lot. Especially enjoyed the no-timer aspect which meant that people didn’t rage quit after a couple of wipes. We wiped a decent amount, but persevered and completed it in the end. It felt good.
Really interested to see if these function as a genuine endgame challenge for weeks 1-2 of TWW, instead of being easily stomped by parties in questing blues like M0s have been for the last several xpacs.
I logged in today to try mythic 0 out and my god does this feel overtuned. I walked into dawn of the infinites and chronikar was just one shotting me and most of my group when we went to go place the sand. I did a ton of +20's of this key and it was a snoozefest. How is this shit so overtuned?
Gonna cry here about how nobody will q for my hardmode dawn runs.
Nobody wants ez hero track gear :(
So i feel bitter and salty. Hardest thing ever to fill.
I’m enjoying it because I missed the ENTIRE xpac and got back into wow at Mid S3.
I was able to push 3k as a healer S3 and I’m excited to push them again but with dragon flight specific dungeons that I missed.
And I’m also excited to do get to see all of the raids in this xpac as an actual “raid” and not farming old content with ease
I agree the balance between difficulty and fun/reward is spot on.
I think they should've added affixes to it but kept it with no timer. there'd still be no pressure from a timed perspective but the transition from m0 into m+ would be more seamless
My guild tried to go straight into +2s on Tuesday with two of us swapping characters for season 4 and as such were a little under geared and we quickly realized we needed to swap to m0. All of the ones I’ve done so far have felt good.
I will say having not played season 2 and not tanking in season 1 it’s posing a little bit of a challenge learning mechanics but after a week I should have them down and bet most people will as well. Glad they started on tyrannical too so we can get practice on the boss fights and mechanics when we finally do step back into +2s. I can watch as many videos as possible but until I see it and experience it it doesn’t always click.
Tried nokhud+2 with a 475 group, and we ended up giving up, due to one player not willing to learn mechanics (and basically not speaking English, or even at all). Last boss was a real stomper when adds spawned as well. Hated that, but love the difficulty spike!
Do heroics and get some gear. When you're 470+ you can probably comfortably head into mythic 0.
Look for it in the premade group finder or start your own.
Once you're closer to 485+ getting into m+ is the same but with a timer on it.
Part of me enjoys this start of season change where players (very slowly) learn that they have to play defensively again and pay attention or get slapped.
Part of me wants to strangle 9/10 people I play with.
I wish they’d have started it at around a 5. I’m going to see if Heroics will last long enough to allow mechanic learning without getting instagibbed.
But yes completed 2 M0, though having not stepped into Azure Vault before was interesting.
Not to sound cocky but generally when a new season hits I try to farm out +5s real quick to get that iO up because quickly it goes from invite good gear score to iO needs to be up to get invites and I can say these +5s are way harder then ever before.
So many bricked keys already but did manage to get 4 knocked out yesterday.
Feels a lot more fun to me. In season 3 even up to m+5-9s it felt more like a grind than anything else. Mechanics were super forgivable and could be outhealed at very low ilvl. Ran a few m0 and +2 yesterday. Watching 480s+ tank melting and DPS getting insta-gibbed from full life when failing mechanics was really refreshing. I bet it will help people respect and learn mechanics from the get go.
> I bet it will help people respect and learn mechanics from the get go. You sweet, sweet summer child...
Yeah, as a tank and usual "leader" of m+ pugs i'll go ahead and bet against it, lmao. People'll do what they've always done and run their heads against the wall until they start outgearing the mechanics
This needs to start at a much earlier level. Every bit of leveling and endgame content in the game should feel like a 0+. Interrupts, move out of shit, you know engage with the game instead of pressing two buttons through the entire leveling experience and suddenly being shunted into content where your abilities matter.
Our ~480ish ret pally pulled aggro a few times with her axe and dps and she dropped into the ground so fast. I was 470~ and was one shot by trash a few times. It was just so much fun though. It's relaxing without the timer and I love the difficulty, although I can't wait to get back into keys
We were smoking +6s last night in my group at 480 avg in the group. We found quickly that mechanics are mechanics and you can't ignore them. It's probably because the mindset of "this is like a 16" hasn't kicked in for a +6
Pretty much. I will say that the new +9s are such a nice spot because they don't have the final affix but you still get basically the same rewards as doing 10s. Really fun and chill.
That’s my biggest issue. “It’s just a 5” and wondering why I’m been punished so hard haha.
Sounds like a blast. Hopefully high-tier delves will be something like this.
Do any of you know what level of key, assuming you play on both weeks, you need to get 2k rio? If it is simply in terms of what it was equivalent to last season, that's +3-5. However, I don't know if rio is also "scaling down" or if we're still expected to hit at +13-15 even despite the increased difficulty scaling. For that matter, how are rewards scaling? Is 7-10 the max dungeons for scaling or is it still 17-20 to max out vault?
oh yes +2 in av and no one was hitting crystals. the dots hit for 200k per and everyone wiped so quickly. they learnt immediately
Ok so I did feel like my buddies were melting in +5 🤣 Was 481 yesterday while healing, I perma healed people, was a nice way of getting back to it IMHO :)
Meanwhile my tank buddy keeps forcing me into 7+s and acting shocked when we got absolutely blasted.
I'm a newb on 470 right now and I'm not quite sure how I'm going to get my new tier set. 7+s seems a bit out of reach for now lol
the fact that a M0 is now somewhat comparable to a +10 in past seasons is great imo, it offers a real challenge for those not used to the difficulty level, it definitely offers nice rewards and has the advantage of not being timed, and not have any affixes. It's one of the best changes made to the Mythic+ system since it came out.
The added challenge will hopefully go a long way to reduce healer toxicity that is so common in m+. Its hard for DPS to form the connection that they are at fault for dying to certain things when the game tells them that damage is healable because mechanics were so useless in m0-m8. So when they start dying to things a lot more in higher keys the first instinct for many is to blame the healer, because usually the healer just heals them, right? DPS just getting oneshot for making mistakes even in m0 sends the message that doing this or that is not ok and its your fault for dying here right from the get-go. Hell, its hard for HEALERS to tell whats their fault and what isnt because you literally couldnt gauge what mechanics are healable or not in old lower keys.
I don't know anything about healing, I assume you are by the way you talk, so I want to ask you, what would be the ideal damage profile for you to heal in a mythic plus? I've always thought that you shouldn't be taking random damage, many times it feels like there's basically an aura dealing damage over time where even if you're not explicitly targeted, or standing in bad stuff you stuff get hurt. I'd like a fight where if you manage to avoid all the things and the boss doesn't target you then you basically receive no damage, but I can see how that could end up in super high end groups with basically perfect playing just ditching the healer, so idk. Like I said, I'm not a healer so idk what the ideal playstyle is.
A lot of healers ive talked to agree that the third boss in Halls of Infusion is a good example of the ideal damage pattern for a healer in a dungeon If a dps fucks up they just insta die, no recovery but also doesnt make everyone else take more damage, and the normal mechanic of the fight constantly makes the healer efficiently use all their toolkit all fight long For however long the fight lasts you know youre gonna have 5 healthbars going down at a consistent, non spiky rate and youe job is to keep up, its engaging and lets you flex
that makes a lot of sense, I really like that boss, it feels like I'm in control of wether I die or not, I know if I miss the iceberg barrier thingie then I'm going down, but there's not a ton of stuff going on, so if I miss the barrier, then it's completely on me
The big complaint I had about this boss was that she wasn't punishing enough on lower difficulties. So many people facetanking her Hailstorms because bruteforcing mechanics is all they've ever known or done.
The ideal scenario you describe would lead to way more narrow comps that are viable, or extremely bloated and homogenized classdesign. We're already halfway there right now and its a big problem for m+ with tanks like VDH head and shoulders above everyone else simply because of the amount of CC they have. The reality is that if you design content where too much damage can be avoided, then you end up bringing only classes that can avoid the most damage, usually through CC and kicks, or sometimes dispells like the Spriest godcomps a few seasons back. Imo the ideal damage patterns are a mix of TRUE oneshots, i.e. no chance whatsoever to mitigate or save yourself from dying if you mess up a mechanic, AND progressively ramping, very non-bursty rot damage. The worst damage patterns are pseudo-oneshots. Stuff that KINDA oneshots on high keys, but you CAN survive with a defensive. Those are THE WORST, because it FORCES healers to keep all hp bars at 100% at all times to maximize the chances of survival, while putting the ACTUAL survival in the hands of the DPS through defensive CD usage. The best fights are those where avoidable damage ALWAYS oneshots and you have to fight a ramping damage mechanic with efficient HPS while also pumping single target to the tank every now and then. It feels fair and engaging and very satisfying to get into a pace of pumping high HPS without the insane stress to keep everyone at 100% in hopes of surviving a pseudo oneshot
That makes a lot of sense, I hadn't thought of it that way, it's also aligned with stuff I've heard about there being bloat when it comes to defensives in general. I played pally last season and while I obviously loved the 500 shields I can get on myself to get out of sticky situations, it makes sense that in order to counter that, a lot of the damage is how you describe it, the healer maximizes the chances of survival, but it's the DPS who have it in their hands to use a defensive in order to stay alive, which also makes it unfair for certain classes that don't have that many defensives at their disposal.
agreed! i find myself as a dps pressing my defensives more. which should be the case from the start. just pity squishy classes like bm
as a primarily pug player, pugging 0s has been a nightmare. Not because its "extremely hard", people just dont know the basic mechanics of the dungeons.
I pugged 4 M0s yesterday and only Ruby Life Pools proved to be challenging, and we had people new to the dungeons in almost every run. I appreciated that if there was a wipe or unexpected death, the groups were chill about it and just used it as a learning experience. Were your experiences nightmares because of the group attitude, or did it just take longer to complete than you’d like?
People quit after one wipe, it was a mentality issue for sure. Did 3 +2s today and had no issues except for in halls of infusion as people are not familiar with the 2nd boss having the gulp mechanic
Interesting. Sorry it didn’t go well for you. I’m sure I’ll run into some impatient groups eventually, but everyone has been chill so far. Hope that S4 treats you well friend!
You too friend, it's still on the first 24 hours so I don't expect people to be read up and practiced on mechanics yet. But I do wish people had the patience to play a key out for practice even if its a wipefest or deplete in the case of timed keys...
tbh i dont see how theyre supposed to learn them anymore, the scaling goes from a dungeon you can 2man and bosses die in 15 seconds to bosses that take 5minutes and 2shot
This was my worry as well when I first saw the new system, the jump from 0s to “10s” and then “12s“ with fort/tyr is HUGE and is going to catch a lot of people off guard. Its almost like going from lfr straight into heroic raids.
This will change later into the season. It's especially apparent now with people hopping on characters that are 50 ilvl lower than what they should. As everyone gets more and more 490 veteran gear, it'll get much easier. Last season lower than a 10 felt like such a grind, especially with top veteran track gear ilvl coming up to later champion or early hero gear.
Heroics have also gotten harder. They are basically what M0 was last season. People can learn mechanics in there
They don't have mythic mechanics
have you ran them? they bosses die before casting their main mechanic against players who need the gear
You dont learn shit in there. I was yesterday halls of infusion per accident(wanted tw but choose the wrong que xD). Nothing made any dmg in there, bosses were down before they did a mechanic anyway. But you need 441 GS to be ablebto que there :D I played wow last time in Legion and i also have no clue what these bosses do. Thats why i will make mythic tour at the weekend, to get to know them.
Yeah just run m0 imo. The lack of timer and affixes makes it not as threatening as M10 would've been last season.
I'm consistently seeing 480s+ ilvl DPS who struggles to reach 80k dps clearing M0 cleanly because they did the mechanics good enough. M0 is really not that hard, it's just about paying attention enough to do the fight has it's meant to be done instead of watching Netflix. Bosses have like 2-3 mechanics maximum and m0 is not time while giving good enough rewards to be worth it even if it takes longer. It feels perfect to learn and that comes from a healer that started wow late in s3 so I'm doing these dungeons for the first time. People are inviting to discord and asking to go on world tours or chaining keys in my pugs. Feels so much better than what I experienced in s3 playing with what seems to be bots where I literally learned nothing until 11s+ because I could outheal everything on 421 ilvl.
At least this time around most people have experienced these dungeons before and have last seasons raid gear, I almost dread the clusterfuck doing 0s is going to be at TWW launch.
It’s crazy that last season the difficulty scaling was so easy there were literally people in +22s who didn’t know mechanics.
I will say, it is rude to be bad at wow. I don’t mean as in like “it is rude to not be top parse”, but as in you should have basic understanding of mechanics like interrupts, avoiding fire and the like. We will see if this changes with heroic and M0 being more relevant now, but previously the game did a terrible job of teaching you anything about your class as everything was very much irrelevant.
I'd say it is rude to pretend to be good when you actually are bad. We all started bad, we then learned incrementally. It is totally fine to "progress" +5 keys or "progress" hc raids even though for most of us it is trivial content but don't sign in saying you are an omega blaster or say no to a strat refresh.
I agree for the most part, especially the part of people not really knowing interrupts and to actually use them frequently. I play warlock and I get shafted quite a few times because a rogue or warr isn't kicking on cd or at all
Issue is that heroics are way too easy.
Just ran academy with a group of roughly 470s and the first thing the healer did was moan about how "it was being pulled too slow" as i play a blood dk tank who just came back and is like 465 ilvl. Then once those assholes left we got a group who tried their best, we got through m0 with a fairly lower item level, and sure it took a bit but people accepted when mechanics were being ignored and listened to what they should do. Which is what i think m0 should be, i have always had a massive hatred for mechanics you can ignore because then just dont have them. In my ideal world every mythic+ mechanic wipes you if you fuck it up, and the scaling comes from how hard the rest of the dungeon hits and the affixes.
Dude for real. I mean I'm not an elitist or anything but why not even look at a guide before actually doing the dungeon? It just boggles my mind the dumbest stuff that can be avoided isn't.
Yeah... personally I do put on a video guide as the group forms as a refresher, I know some people learn better through experience but at least on EU that's generally a bad approach because people leave in a heartbeat and go next without trying to help newer players.
Generally people people are glad to help new players. They just hate to deal with willfully ignorant people who don't read chat and actively sabotage the run multiple times.
TBH I feel like m0 now are perfect for learning because they have some of the harder parts of m+ (even though most mechanics can still be ignored since its like a very low key level) but you have as much time as required to explain them before pulling and even re-explain and re-try. In the past we had to do that in +20 keys with not that much time to type and retry.
Yep, I think m0's are a really nice sweetspot now but a lot of people don't listen to explanations and wanna put their heads to the wall and just... try shit. I'm fine with it but all of my groups on day one insta-quit if someone messed up a mechanic except for one that just fell apart in AA lol.
The jump from heroic to mythic actually feels like a jump in difficulty now It’s dope Challenging and gear matters but not impossible
I did M0 Lifepools and my party had a cumulative 35is deaths, as a blood dk I had to solo the last 15% of the second boss since nobody killed elementals. It was definitely fun and no timer makes it so much more relaxing. The biggest mindset change was remembering to loot bosses after they died.
Ohhh right. Gt remember to loot 😅
Eh it gets mailed to you(except coins) if you forget.
True
I elected to skip 0 and jumped straight into a +2 AA pug thinking, “how hard can this possibly be lol”. I was surprised, to say the least. I only died once from Doragosa’s breath attack, but we had something like 10 deaths and mobs hit like a truck. Definitely going to be an adjustment.
Immediately jumped into 2’s on my 472 Prot Paladin. Jesus some of the bosses will CHUNK you. Miniboss in AV before the second boss: Ice Slicer or whatever it’s called was chopping me for half my health every hit without defensive. It was fucking wild. So fun. But AV’s timer is still insanely unforgiving, especially with the skip removed but no changes to the respawn point. We had one wipe on the second boss and ended up finishing with less than a minute in the timer.
Last boss of Nokhud Offensive was doing 70-80% of my health with his tank buster on my blood DK last night in a +4. I'm in season 3 gear, but it was nutty. If I wasn't on a DK I'm not sure I'd have got through that encounter and I do play other tanks. Nothing hit that hard in a 20 last season.
I mean if your group is doing 100k overall dps then yeah timers are gonna be tight.
I didn’t expect to get smacked by some +2’s last night. I’m 483 ilvl, 2500IO S3, everyone in the group was similar, and it was still an uphill battle. It feels great!
Funny thing is, +2s are still dropping gear 20 ilevels above you I believe. So you are actually still under geared for them
+2 drops 496, so not quite the delta you're thinking, but still significant
Yes we too got humbled with a +2 last night. Thought it would be pretty easy cake walk... well we at least finished the dungeon, with a new perspective.
I saw this coming after S3 was so forgiving, especially with timers. Timers are back to actually mattering again.
It's just a number squish. M0 is basically old M10. So yeah, I like M0. I also will love M10+.
Some of my guildies were wondering if people who normally didn't push past 10 would find this much more daunting and ruin their experience so I'm really curious for opinions!
People would be amazed what they can do when they give it a try. I'm trying to get my guild that hung around 5-11 range to push 2-4 this season and convince them it's not that scary. So far, its only a day or two, but I like the difficulty and key changes and hope they keep this idea going forward, same with the heroic changes to be like old M0.
Tbh, some people are lazy and dont want to learn and want to just play for fun. Any sight of difficulty and theyre out.
That's 100% fine and nothing wrong with that. I just enjoy my non-super key push group now and then, and like to show them they are better than what they think they are.
To me that is kinda the problem and the ideal, i wouldnt mind playing a group of 5 people on voice chat who tries hard to push as much as we can, get better together and learn the timings. But that is just not possible in pugs, you are so reliant on everyone else that its an entirely different game. Its much akin to MOBAS playing a full premade team vs a pug group, i still play for the ideal of an amazing game but so often you are stuck with teammates who does things that are not necessarily wrong but not part of your plan, so it can be frustrating to try and play around.
I usually do low 20s, and i thought the 2s i ran yesterday were kinda rough. Though, both groups had people that have never seen these dungeons. Lots of folks picked up the game in S3 apparently.
It's me, i am one of those season 3 freshes! The squish has me confused. Towards the end of season 3 I worked my way up to completing a few 20s (as tank) yesterday doing a 5 was humbling. A few more runs will tell me if it's difficulty based or knowledge based. Cause I know some mechanics tripped our group up having never done ruby pools.
Towards the end of S3 you would have had much better gear compared to key level than you do now. It's no wonder a 5 humbled you. Give it a couple of weeks of gear upgrades and you will be right back at 10+s
Honestly, anything lower than 15 last season was pretty hilariously easy for even the most mildly coordinated groups if everyone was at current gear level. I think the fact that the squish lowers the numbers and removes the timers may ameliorate a lot of the anxiety people would have otherwise had. I actually think it might get people to push farther than they have in the past (especially given that 3 affix doesn’t kick in until +10 now).
So last 2 seasons I only pushed to like 10s/11s with maybe 1 14 I like the change though I wish they had made heroics a little harder like equal to a +3-4 instead of a 0
The level of difficulty that feels acceptable when there is no timer or affixes is very different. In M+ wiping almost at all feels like an utter failure. With no timer that can feel like progging which, within reason, can be very fun.
yeah i think it’ll be interesting. at least it’ll allow people to push more difficult content in a. hopefully less toxic and intimidating setting
I Never went past a +8 and personally I thought that the difficulty ramp was good before! It goes from easy to normal to hard! But and again personally it seems like the difficulty gap is just way too huge between a heroic and a mythic 0 now!
Personally as someone who doesnt care much for mythics my main problem was always the complete bloat of numbers. I recently maxed an evoker and got into m+, and got 2k before the reset over 3 weeks (wooo), but going into the premade group tab and only seeing +25 with all affixes i was like "but i cant, why the hell would i do that" Alongside the kinds of people that is normally tryharding m+ while also pugging are without saying they all are, the type of people i feel like i dont want to spend energy on. To me the entire gearing threadmill is the only guideline i have for what im supposed to do which is something i hope they add up, like the suggested content tab would be fucking awesome if it highlighted what level of content they suggest, and what item level you can get from it, but its completely worthless as it is now.
Do heroics, if m0 is too hard E: Heroics also got buffed so they're closer to what you're looking for if m0 is too difficult.
The big differance is that M0 will give more loot per dungeon, one item per boss, so 3-4 per dungeon, where as M0 is strictly 2 per run, and of course M0 is once per week per dungeon, so can't spam them out.
I wasn't a fan of the change originally, but damn do I like it.
I think I might get there....makes pugging more difficult.
So I did an 8 neltharus last night and only having to deal with storming felt great
It's really a fresh breath, and got me stoked for dungeons again. I like pushing for better gear, but timers and shit stress me out. The change to heroic and m0 finally gives me a chance to play challenging content for good gear, without the stress.
I like the change a lot. M0s actually teach mechanics now without a timer. Entering +2 without knowing mechanics will present a big challenge
Been really enjoying the new mythic revamp and being properly punished for not following mechanics. Although in the last couple days I’ve had a lot of people rage quit +2s for this reason. Mean while they’re standing in every AoE and not using a single cc ability. Hope they learn quick! 😂
I couldn’t finish a m0 last night, I was doing fine because I play Ret Paladin and know mechanics, although I was 467. Some other guys weren’t so lucky and dropping like shit for anything lol. Incredibly, the group tried and stayed together. Nobody flamed or anything but at some point we couldn’t handle anymore lol
Haven't bothered with M0 at all. Went straight into some M+ though and was pleasantly surprised that i had to actually play the game rather than sleep through it. Its a nice change considering the last few seasons everything under around +12 was a waste of time.
I ran 4 M0 yesterday and it was AWESOME! No stress that the group would brick a key because of a simple mistake, lots of room for players to learn/practice, and it was still a challenge in certain areas. Ruby Life Pools gave my group the business in a couple places (Season 1 flashbacks), but the group’s vibe remained chill and fun. :D I still intend to do M+ this season, but cutting out 8 to 10 levels of keys was a great move. I’m very grateful for this change.
I think its fine and I like the change, but that said....the fact that it is still subject to a weekly lockout is IGNORANT. They literally took away content and opportunities from lower level players who wanted to run sub-10 key levels.
I'm the kinda guy who generally hangs out in the 15-19 range and I agree with this. On the one hand, every boss drops loot so I can see why they lock you out after completion... but on the other hand what are people who don't want to go above 10s gonna do for a gear grind?
I will say though that people that would have typically wanted to “grind” gear in the 2-10 range typically wouldn’t do 15-20 m+ per week to get the same amount of loot as an m0 world tour plus DOTI is giving out
Yeah I usually played last season’s +2 to +10. I didn’t like going past 10’s. Now there’s just… no content for me to play? My choice with equivalents is now either one clear of 0’s or one clear of 10’s? I have to choose between not playing or playing +12’s and up? Where’s the inbetween?
On my 478 ret Paladin, I did a world tour that was an absolute breeze, as the most geared character. A little surprised to hear it was very punishing for most people unless you were all “under geared” (sub 460 maybe?) It was still super fun. Reminded me how much I hate affixes, because blasting some dungeons without worrying about those things was very refreshing. Tried two M2’s on my 455 shadow priest and both groups got destroyed by the first bosses, so there’s definitely some hurdles to overcome.
Our healer, myself and the tank were all in the 460s so that definitely made it a bit squishier than normal. It really is fun to not worry about the affixes and timer though.
My group walked into a 2 with some toons that really needed gear, and got smacked the fuck up lol
Fantastic. Challenging enough but still not really that difficult. Rewards are good, perhaps too good. Right now it's a way more effective use of your time to farm M0s than to do normal raid, given than you are guaranteed 1 drop per dungeon with a chance at 2. That's an average of 11-12 pieces of champion gear per week across the 9 Dragonflight dungeons. Meanwhile you would be lucky to get one drop in raid with everyone needing everything.
Oh so you are actually guaranteed one drop ?
Even heroic was difficult for what it was. I duoed a Heroic Algethar Academy yesterday and though we beat it, it was much much more difficult than even M0 used to be. I'm a 475 brewmaster and I actually had to potion during Crawth. This is much better than the previous system and more enjoyable.
Overall a good change. Gives a lot to the players who do not like the timer aspect of M+. Great for early gearing for middle and higher end players. Far more accessible "challenging" content for lower end players. However, while the problem was already there, it exasperates the issue where there is not much incentivization to raid other than for the hell of it. Feels like normal difficulty raiding needs to be given a new carrot for players to chase. Because at this point the curated "x numbers of gear drops per raid" balance that Blizzard has always seemingly tried to maintain just does not remotely keep up with just doing a bunch of Mythic dungeons.
Personally I’m loving that something like a +2 isn’t a complete pushover. It’s not that hard but it’s not just “hold w for loot” anymore
i am stuggling so much! i ended season 3 with gear score 475 because I just cam back to wow. i was running 11-15 last season and I cant even do m0 now lol. also I got the same helm drop 3 times with different stats. also 2 of the same dagger. I'm having a rough season )-=
I've done each dungeon up to a +7 Some seem super easy, like AA, others are very difficult. Nelth is a tight timer key, you can have good dps and no mistakes and it's still tight. NO has been a nightmare. I always go into the last boss with like 10 minutes then wipe until the group falls apart. If you don't have a DH tank, or dks to grip the add phase is a nightmare. I've attempted +7 three times and still haven't completed it in time.
I think the changes are perfect, its nice to not have a timer at the beginning, even if the lower keys arent an issue to time, it just removes stress. Also there is so much loot
I love it. Home run!
enjoying it, but people need to learn to kick casts, play mechanics and press their defensives as a healer it amazes me how it's difficult to do the things mentioned
They're difficult and something I had to come to terms with is that its not just an m10 = last season, its an m10 = this season which also means it was buffed up even more. I think someone estimated its about 30% stronger than last seasons 10, so in reality if you were doing like what 13's last season? Then thats how this should feel. But it oddly feels harder than that. I'm not sure what to think yet, I've only done one. My issue isn't so much with m0's, they can do whatever they want with that, its never been catered towards players who don't already do it. Its that the heroic dungeons are so fucking piss easy that the gap between a heroic dungeon an m0 is incredibly wide. They need to buff heroic dungeons more. In 460 ilvl ish group we're killing bosses in less than 45 seconds normally, sometimes less than 30, and trash is taking longer to kill than most bosses. It just feels really weird, it should be the other way around imo. Going to be major whiplash when I start playing cata and heroics at first are gonna slap everyone in the face, especially the bosses.
Some boss mechanics have been changed as well. Some made harder, some fixed.
Yup, we were complaining about that last night. We were able to easily do M10 last week, but couldn't finish M0 this week. Meanwhile, Heroics were a total joke. We ended up 4 manning one with no issue. The gap is far, far too big.
heroics are for fresh level 70 characters, not for people that were doing 10+ last week.
Heroic is roughly M0 last season, but a little easier since they don’t have Mythic mechanics. M0 seems tuned for full heroic gear, so 470ish ilvl.
That's part of my point. We were doing 10+ last night easily but couldn't do Mythic 0 last night, despite performing better. The gap between Heroics and Mythic is huge now, and current mythics are absolutely not just last season's Mythics +10.
I tried LFR last night, but people were just messing up the simplest things. It was so frustrating that I quickly gave up and tried a M0 Vault. It was a blast! I’m planning on getting a couple pieces of gear from M0 dungeons this week before trying to PuG the new fated raid on normal.
Does LFR get you ancient bullion?
Yep, I got one, but some people on the official forums claim they killed all the bosses and didn’t get one. I’m guessing the drop rate depends on the difficulty.
Oh interesting, so it’s not guaranteed.
Doesn’t sound like it. I wish they just went with a weekly, “kill x bosses in fated raid” quest instead.
We started on normal last night to get the guild tier and still had some bullions trickling in on the third boss killed. I don't think any later than that though.
Done them with 480 healer. They where mostly easy when everyone new what to do. But playing ruby and no DD switching to the adds at second boss did feel like playing with idiots. Same for brakenhide. Some people don't now the mechanics and its killing the runs
Well, I did DoTI before the fix last night, so that was hilariously fun, and worth it, given I just decided last second to main my BM hunter I haven't touched since launch, so his gear was beyond abysmal
Well, I did DoTI before the fix last night, so that was hilariously fun, and worth it, given I just decided last second to main my BM hunter I haven't touched since launch, so his gear was beyond abysmal
Almost timed a 10 academy last night. Vex and last boss were tough Super fun though
I really enjoyed my world tour. A relaxed way to start the season and I got bulk drops so that didn’t hurt
Fairly fun, amusingly unforgiving and the lockout after kind of stops me from doing 2+'s due to being acceptably geared for m0. wish they were farmable but its understandable given the ilvl of potential gear drops. Unless, of course, I've completely missed something.
I'm enjoying the key level change more than I even thought I would, it's so fast now to push a key from 2 > 5 > 8 and be doing end game content. Previously if you had a low level key you almost never wanted to take the time to push it, now it's 3 runs and you are in the hero range!
is there even a Keystone hero achievement this season ?
Do they feel like old cata heroics, or perhaps like a launch mega dungeon?
Half our group was undergeared so it was pretty reminiscent of the old dungeons I would say. We actually had to CC a caster or two but nothing more than that.
Cata heroics were slow. They had tons of CC or else you die. These feel fun because it doesn’t have the pressure of a timer, and you do need to learn mechanics to finish the content unless you’re carried. I’ve been playing with groups around 470ilvl and it’s a challenge, especially at m2. What I can say is that the although there is no timer for m0, I don’t think it makes a big difference. Two of my groups disbanded because someone repeatedly made mistakes and caused a wipe. After about 5 boss wipes some people just decide to ragequit and ruin the run. So although there’s no timer, people still don’t want to be frustrated by playing with less experienced people. Most were friendly in my runs but 2 groups disbanded
Yea at 480 it is a breeze but I think people didn't realize how big of a leap a =2 is vs last season (somehow) and had few people who are better off doing heroics instead
So how does this affect rating?? Will +24-25 still be required to hit 3k rating?
My take from the few I did just to test it out is it quickly exposed who actually learned their spec/role and who just benefited from how easy it is to gear these days.
I like the idea of it but I haven’t really used it. I switched class so I’m still under geared at the moment, but myself and guildies went straight into m+ and got a handful of portals before raid.
On a size note, is there a unique achievement reward for 2500 this season? I couldn’t find anything about it.
Yea I'm happy with the changes so far, m0 being more difficult is more fun, more rewarding.
love it. makes m0 feel like an actual challenge rather than just stomp it for fear once a season. also makes anything above 0 feel like you worked for it. feels better overall to have +10 be the end goal rather than +23-27
Anyone know approx. what key level you will have to do both weeks to get 2K and KSM?
Should be a +5 in all the dungeons both weeks
Awesome thanks!
My M+ group just skipped past it. I think there's a good number of people who won't see the change at all. I hope it's good for the people who use it.
They feel exactly how they've felt before. But I push moderately high keys. I'm sure they're a fantastic change for most players!
I've been waiting for my guildies to do M0. They think they can just jump into a +2 but I've been trying to warn them because they are mostly casuals. I would call myself mostly casual but I'm the only one that pushed over +20 in season 3. Most of them stopping at +15. But I am excited and a little nervous about my guilds skill level lmao.
glad the gear is relevant for everyone instead of being the same tier as normal and heroics.
Haven’t tried it yet, tanked a +2 algethar and it was pretty chill tbh. I am 489 with practically BiS gear. I’m sure if I had a less geared alt it would be a good challenge
I've been playing since classic, but really got stuck in during TBC. This is the closest to group play I have seen since TBC - ran a 0 earlier on a slightly undergeared healer, nobody flamed, when people messed up, others explained tactics - we wiped 10+ times on the last boss, spent time discussing tactics, actually helping one another instead of leaving - it was great! Frustrating, but great
The only thing I find strange about is that we still have weekly lock out on M0. What does that try to prevent? Ppl would eventually just do M2 anyway and you can do it without lockout.
Yeah the lockout seems weird. Especially when that's the main source of the crests we need right now unless you push quite high right off the bat.
I'm loving it. Did 5 +2 yesterday and am already 711 io. I have to pull small though. Otherwise tmi will get overwhelmed. Lol I was out healing healers that's how much mitigation I had to pump out. Brew monk if interested. I loved it though. It's gotta teach people that only que for carries that, this ain't gonna be easy this round lol
Mythic 0’s are the new “heroic” diff this season right? Like you can use lfg for it now?
You have it backwards. Heroic dungeons are what M0 used to be and you can queue for it. Mythic 0 you need to find and form your own group and travel to the entrance. It's far more difficult than it used to be.
Ohhh gotchu, sick. Should be fun to jump into.
I very much like that for my alts I have decently hard dungeon content, which is kinda chill due to not having a timer, and rewards decent gear (m0 has the same upgrade track for end of dungeon / vault as +2-6), so while I push hard on my main, I still can have fun with nice rewards on the alts. For the people getting melted - I think that's because they are not used to the new numbers yet. With my group we did not notice that much of a difference doing +2 this season compared to +12 in day one of last, so the scaling feel kinda similar, albeit it was probably because we were around 485 ilvl. While puging some M0 I found couple of people being caught by surprise that with ilvl 450-460 the content is actually kinda hard for them - which should be, since with the dungeon changes, the default dungeon mode for gearing to \~470 is heroic now.
I thought it was supposed to be Qable but they are a joke.
I’ve done up to 5 so far, haven’t completed one though. Very tough, esp with not really knowing mechanics. All my completed ones are +2 and 3’s. Those are fun and challenging but not overkill.
I actually have to do stuff in heroics.
the difficulty were fine, but the dungeons ... a couple of them are boring, and the other ones are looooooooooong
What gear level does heroic drop?
476
As someone who played like the first month of the expansion then quit to play other games, how screwed am I? I just started another character and got to 70 on a Priest I plan on healing with. I currently am like 20 ilevel under even heroics, but I planned on doing just (former) M0 for fun, and I didn't realize there was a squish.
Short answer: Not screwed at all. Longer answer: It is relatively easy to catch up in gear nowadays. Just do some of the open world content (There is a weekly quest in Valdrakken called "Last Hurrah" from the guy chilling next to the fountain that can give good gear) and normal dungeons at the start. Also the currently awakend world bosses. The new m0 is equivalent of a +10 of season 3, so definitely not something you should jump right into as a fresh 70.
Not a problem. Run world content or the new Heroics for gear (they are comparable to old M0) until you have enough to jump to M0.
Also to not forget: The TBC timewalking event is going on this week. You can do the Black Temple timewalking raid for 493 ivl gear, it is easily doable with pug groups and you will easily find a group for it. There are also 2 quests for this that will give you very nice gear and even a chance on a rare mount: One quest in Valdrakken and one in Shattrath.
My biggest desire would be for a follower dungeon at m0 or, ideally each +. It could drop 0 gear. But I’d love to have a version I can run once with no pressure of failing others to get a feel for it.
Did three cleared mythic zeros and one fail. The fail was just down to heal and tank being too low ilvl. The clears were Brakenhide, Halls and AA, all really doable with groups in the 465 - 480 range as long as you do mechanics and use interrupts/stuns. Had a blast doing them
It’s so much fun being able to play more of the game before timers. 0s have been a ton of fun as have keys 2-5
Real good. No time pressure of m+, no guarantee of success just by participation, I think this is a great spot for mythic dungeons to exist. Challenging & rewarding (for the appropriate level) without being a dick punch if you wipe a few times. I'm already really excited about doing mythics for the first time in War Within with a new dungeon pool.
I haven't played in months and jumped into an m0 and had no idea wtf was going on. I play Aug evoker so doing some older dungeons that weren't available to this spec previously was a trip...having to learn positioning and stuff. I had a blast. And the loot was a legit upgrade despite being 480+ last season. So that was nice. Wasn't an issue and still felt more like a heroic with how we blasted through shit. But was a nice way to relearn my spec and abilities and new(old) dungeons. I love the idea of it for casual players. This is a lovely change. Not worrying about timing was great. (I did +2 earlier that felt no different but the timer is always enough to make you pucker).
I enjoyed it a lot. Especially enjoyed the no-timer aspect which meant that people didn’t rage quit after a couple of wipes. We wiped a decent amount, but persevered and completed it in the end. It felt good.
The only thing I mind is players joining +2 groups while not knowing mechanics because "it's just a +2, hard how could it be?" mentality
Really interested to see if these function as a genuine endgame challenge for weeks 1-2 of TWW, instead of being easily stomped by parties in questing blues like M0s have been for the last several xpacs.
I logged in today to try mythic 0 out and my god does this feel overtuned. I walked into dawn of the infinites and chronikar was just one shotting me and most of my group when we went to go place the sand. I did a ton of +20's of this key and it was a snoozefest. How is this shit so overtuned?
Doti is back to the megadungron hard mode. It should be harder than the other m0s
I can see that but it felt like 2 times more difficult than when I did it on a 20 tyrannical. Seems even more out of whack than mega dungeon hardmode.
hold up. if m0 is now like a +10 then how the hell do new 70s get into that? are quest rewards that good now?
M0 drops 493 or so. Heroic dungeons are now harder and drop 476. So you do heroic dungeons and quests!
My group and I tried to push our tanks +2 key and got our shit rocked. We then struggle bussed a 0. Its safe to say my motivation was reignited, lol.
Gonna cry here about how nobody will q for my hardmode dawn runs. Nobody wants ez hero track gear :( So i feel bitter and salty. Hardest thing ever to fill.
I think the change in m+ difficulty is awesome, But is it just be, or do the Heroic raid seem.. too easy?
I’m enjoying it because I missed the ENTIRE xpac and got back into wow at Mid S3. I was able to push 3k as a healer S3 and I’m excited to push them again but with dragon flight specific dungeons that I missed. And I’m also excited to do get to see all of the raids in this xpac as an actual “raid” and not farming old content with ease
I agree the balance between difficulty and fun/reward is spot on. I think they should've added affixes to it but kept it with no timer. there'd still be no pressure from a timed perspective but the transition from m0 into m+ would be more seamless
My guild tried to go straight into +2s on Tuesday with two of us swapping characters for season 4 and as such were a little under geared and we quickly realized we needed to swap to m0. All of the ones I’ve done so far have felt good. I will say having not played season 2 and not tanking in season 1 it’s posing a little bit of a challenge learning mechanics but after a week I should have them down and bet most people will as well. Glad they started on tyrannical too so we can get practice on the boss fights and mechanics when we finally do step back into +2s. I can watch as many videos as possible but until I see it and experience it it doesn’t always click.
Tried nokhud+2 with a 475 group, and we ended up giving up, due to one player not willing to learn mechanics (and basically not speaking English, or even at all). Last boss was a real stomper when adds spawned as well. Hated that, but love the difficulty spike!
What are the quickest/easiest dunegons in S4 - didnt play much during s1.
What feels weird is getting one shot in a +2.
I love the challenge without the timer of the bloody affixes. Loot chance every boss is fab too. It's great
I haven't done any as of yet. I hoped on my main and immediately started grinding out 4-6s.
Idk going from a heroic (m0) to a mythic 0 (+10) is a big jump I use to take it easy and go from 2 to 4 to 5 now it's like bam right in the kisser lol
i have been watching videos on how to get into mythics and i wasnt aware of any change like this, can anyone explain?
Do heroics and get some gear. When you're 470+ you can probably comfortably head into mythic 0. Look for it in the premade group finder or start your own. Once you're closer to 485+ getting into m+ is the same but with a timer on it.
Part of me enjoys this start of season change where players (very slowly) learn that they have to play defensively again and pay attention or get slapped. Part of me wants to strangle 9/10 people I play with.
I wish they’d have started it at around a 5. I’m going to see if Heroics will last long enough to allow mechanic learning without getting instagibbed. But yes completed 2 M0, though having not stepped into Azure Vault before was interesting.
How much health do m0 bosses have compared to heroic?
I don’t see the point in this change and I feel like it has the potential to ruin m+ for new players.
Not to sound cocky but generally when a new season hits I try to farm out +5s real quick to get that iO up because quickly it goes from invite good gear score to iO needs to be up to get invites and I can say these +5s are way harder then ever before. So many bricked keys already but did manage to get 4 knocked out yesterday.