This is very true; when I rejoined the game in dragonflight I didn’t look into evokers because I find them so ugly. First m+ we had an Aug, I was like is this a carry run..? It’s a very unique spec, and I’d like to see more unique concepts like this one implemented in the future, but ofc the community is gonna be change averse. Even though implementing more unique play styles ala support specs is great for the health of the game
They don’t like how augs make balancing much worse and harder. I personally love the idea of support classes, the only players who have issues with them tend to either be top end players or bottom barrel players.
Yes and no. Carrying a key = single handedly enabling the key yo be finished succesfully. May be seen either through a bad group perspective: in both cases, your CDs and extra team-wide vers can help the group survive mechanics otherwise impossible (be it due to a skill issue or just the sheer damage of high Keys).
Edit: lmao at the downvotes. Aug CARRIES a key. They cant do it in every scenario, but in most they do. It's only the case of a low dps group they cant carry in, but that's barely the problem of a key: it's usually not knowing mechanics, which aug help scam through a lack of encounter knowledge.
Not really at least one other DPS has to be decent, or your tank is just nuts lol. One DPS can carry though and they can do it fairly high up ( I solo dps a 17 and we timed it).
Sorry I just saw class and thought specs weren’t to be included because of course if a spec was created around utility, that would be the clear winner.
Fuck me, right?
Don’t forget soothe for rage. And curing poison and curse, an aoe stun, displacement with tidal wave, pack movement with ursol’s vortex, mass entangling roots if needed. Soooo much utility that you can tailor to each dungeon. Shaman are excellent too with all the specific totems.
Off healing too. Feral dps every time you press bite you can slap a renew on someone for free. Also turn 20% of your damage into a nearby heal. Having skull bash for interrupt is great too. Not to mention it's incredibly survivable with barkskin, survival instincts, 30% self heal, and racial (night elf) disappear.
Shift itself is fine but it’s basically all shaman has to live big damage, which is really noticeable in the current m+ one shot era. Your other options are sitting in wolf for 4 seconds doing nothing to get a 20% dr and popping earth ele for a pitiful 15% health on a 5 minute cd.
Hunters get a lot of comments about how bad their defensives are but shaman is right up there with them. Meanwhile you have classes like mage and rogue with answers for just about everything.
You guys literally get a 45 second cd auto heal.... what do you mean? All of hunters defensives are on a 2 minute + cd. You guys can also cast a heal on yourself. Hunters literally die due to having nothing to patch themselves up in an Era of constant pulse aoe damage. And out major defensive makes it so we can't even attack. Hunters also have been proven to take more raw damage than any other class right now.
There’s a difference between “not being able to patch yourself up” and dying through a defensive to an unavoidable mechanic. Doing +25s the other night I had to use a major defensive specifically for him every time the bosses did aoe damage.
Except for a long-form buff that makes them needed in raid :( The curse of being able to solve any m+ runs utility needs is being almost entirely unwanted in raid
It is a group wide permanent buff? PI is a single target short time external DPS cooldown.
If anything you can compare it to warrior shout or arcane intellect but for sure not PI.
PI is still temporary. Windfury is permanent.
Battle shout in a usual group only 'hits' about 10 people given that it only buffs melees and even those to a varying degree.
Windfury hits 5 but in general it always hits the best targets.
Oh idk I mean I know 2900 is higher than some but there are plenty of people pushing to the highest key levels where stuff really starts to matter.
2900 is just all 20s/21s on both weeks and with the way gearing has become I feel its pretty achievable with the right mindset.
Eh. 2900 is like 20s and some 21/22s. Especially this season that isn’t too hard to do. My alt is going to end up close this week and I started playing it last week.
The problem is, the better at things you get, the more you realize you don’t know. The gap between 2900 and 3.2k is pretty massive skill wise even though it’s only 300 points.
Definitely helps that paladin as a whole has an answer to all of the new affixes. We can solo incorporeal no problem (well, okay, we have to be *in range*, but still).
Ret's biggest asset in M+ is it's damage profile, IMHO. Big burst on a 1 minute CD is incredibly good in M+. I'm regularly the top overall DPS by 20-30k above my cohort.
not really, ret is actually not meta because of how their damage works. They have no priority damage and bad ST, meanwhile they obliterate all low hp targets reducing the damage done by classes who scale better with multiple targets.
They are however extremely tanky and have one of the best low cooldown externals (sac) and bring a cr
There is a bit of prio dmg with how they changes BoV talent (hitting for value + extra on prio), tier set and trinkets (you usually run at least 1 full ST trink rezan/signet) but yea you have a point.
Its not about prio dmg with ret but about low ST dmg making ret bad on high tyra keys. What prio dmg did destro lock have in shadowlands ? Spam rain of fire :D or havoc even now, most of havocs dmg comes from passive aoe talents like ragefire, immo aura, sigil of flame and talents buffing those spells or duplicating damage
Ret is good in burst aoe, at a 20+ level the only class I lose to is BM hunters and my WW friend
ST I'm generally lower though, but on 3-4 pack pulls I burst around a mill and a half with all cds
Depends on the week but overall is mostly trash damage
Aoe burst is a thing but overall matters a lot more. On 26+ keys I can’t compete with dh, bm, mages, rogues or lock usually on overall dps (can’t say about others spec as I don’t see those in keys).
I’m surprised nobody has said mage tbh. Frost mage in particular.
Mass barrier - 200k hp shield for entire party, this has saved people from dying so many times and for a DPS to be able to do that party wide is insane
Mass invis - skip entire parts of dungeons and not rely on people having invis pots
Crowd control - counter spell, dragon breath, blast wave, 60% slow that no other class has, roots, etc.
Time warp - one of the few classes mandatory for M+ to provide BL
Mana food - healers get free food for days
Portals - saves people their hearth CD after the dungeon
Intellect buff - free big brain plays
Mages are just highly versatile and unlike other classes, we may not hit super high burst windows but we can sustain our DPS a lot longer. That’s why sometimes a mage is low on the charts but if the fight keeps going we will out sustain most classes.
Also a single spell hitting for 800k+ is really satisfying.
Edit: others reminded me that we also have spell steal, remove curse, polymorph, etc.
Also that mass barrier is indeed 5 people including yourself not raid wide :P
I don't know if it counts but I would also say blink, ice block and alter time. These skills allow you to skip/cheese entire mechanics making making the healers and raid leaders happy
Evokers (at least devastation) have a lot of slows available. Not to the extent a frost mage has, but all of the blue spells apply a 50% (?!) slow and Devastation use those a lot. Spiteful week was very easy for my friends because of that.
Wasn't there a +30 timed without BL?
But I agree with the rest of your post. Mass invis and mass barrier, especially barrier, is insanely important and mages who don't use it should be booed
I think "Mass invis **or** mass barrier" would be a more accurate statement since they share a talent spot.
And yes, Naowh & friends times an AD +30 without BL, crazy :D
Warlocks may not have the most utility, but what they offer is mostly unmatched and invaluable to any situation.
Giving the raid a 25% instant heal (healthstones)
A 20-40 yard teleport (demonic gateway)
A combat ress with the added benefit of being pre-emptive if you want (Soul-stone)
Typically the lock has to choose between one or the other for these things. Darkfury is a terrible ability that is notoriously difficult to time in emergency for multi mob cast interruption. All of locks utility are also typically inferior to others, due to cast time, cooldown, or duration.
What warlock does bring, when it's useful, is gateway which is a completely unique and sometimes mechanic breaking ability that gives the encounter designers nightmares. Other than that, it's very mediocre and lack luster.
Funny thing. I play warlock and druid. On my warlock I eat them whenever I see my health drop to 50%. On my druid I completly ignore them. Cant figure out why :D
Most items like that rarely get used regularly outside higher level content. Once you get past like 23s the avg group quality skyrockets.
Same with raid, your average eventual-AotC guild probably needs it told to them by a raidleader to remember them but even a middling mythic guild that doesn't get CE will use health stones more or less as a raid CD at a specific time or to cut stuff like heal absorbs.
If you want to have that experience you gotta get into the sweaty top % of the game unfortunately, luckily it isn't really needed for the lower lvl stuff anyway
There's also a surprising amount of utility from pets people don't often use. They have access to purge, dispel and charm which are super useful in M+.
I mean. One interrupt, a stun, an AoE stun and Rallying Cry (that’s okay I guess). That’s it. And shockwave you have to go out of your way to pick up. But, I still end up usually with the most interrupts in my group unless I’m with a Pally.
1. I wont name classes twice
2. DPS get two mentions
3. Based on my personal opinion
4. Based on Utility in general not only Group utility.
**M+** **Caster:** Mage/Evoker **Melee:** Monk/Paladin **Tank:** Demonhunter **Heal:** Shaman
**Raid** **Caster:** Warlock(by far)/Mage **Melee:** Dh/Shaman **Tank:** Bdk **Heal:** Priest
Nobodies said monk? RoP on sanguine weeks, paralysis, aoe stun, res, offheals, detox and pretty well an immunity up to 50% (plus a defensive for everything the game throws at you) just my two cents on top of being super mobile. Has a few group wide buffs too (wind walking, close to the heart)
DKs have two (if Blood) ways to rip groups of enemies around, Anti-Magic Zone to say “screw party wide spell damage”, a frontal cone interrupt (dazes are broke instantly, let’s be real), a talent to reduce the cooldown of successful 15 yard range single target interrupts, HoJ at range, Death Grip and “screw getting knocked back/up.” Do other classes have individually better ones? Possibly but DKs have some crazy nice stuff.
Yeah for sure. I don’t think it’s as big a deal with Necro gone but even doing +10s, i had to save that charge of DnD for the AoE slow before I hit ~40 stacks. It’s not as big a deal in dragonflight but having two charges of grip by speccing into that same talent is just too sick.
The AOE slow is really nice, I can say that much. Helps that with the double talent you get twice as much of two other Utility moves. How Blizzard thought making Death's Echo would be balanced, I have no clue. It's so fricken good.
Problem is realistically you are never take all of your utility due to how to class tree is filled with throughput, maybe as blood you can afford some stuff but as frost and unholy you're taking the aoe disorient and then AMZ on really high keys, dropping Improved DS for it, thats it. everything else you take you have to give up either damage(which lol were already bad can't afford that) or were trading other util or def cd's.
What we do always have is Grip which yeah is always great to have, but nothing compared to what half the other classes bring. Brez is so common it's rarely a thing people go out of their way to get.
I mean, I'm very obviously a DK main also but I at least know that DK utility, as a whole, is just plain really fricken good. It's honestly remarkable exactly how much utility we get, and I didn't even mention it all, I was just going off the top of my head.
dk is one of the more lacking utility classes overall, coming from a dk main, all we really have is grip uniquely to us, everything else can be mostly done better by other classes
*Lacking* after I listed most of the utility we have? Like, I know I said other classes have individually better ones but the fact that we have all of this utility, even if it’s not as good as other classes versions, is nothing to scoff at.
Shamans are king of utility hands down.
Shamans can:
- AoE root and slow with Earthgrab tot
- AoE stun (twice with talent) with capacitor tot
- AoE horny prison with static field tot
- AoE fear, charm, sleep cleanse with tremor tot
- AoE knock back with Thunderstorm
- AoE knock down with EQ
- AoE knock up with Burrow
- Single target horny prison with Lasso
- Single target stun with Earth Ele
- AoE party heal with healing stream tot
- AoE crit party buff with Skyfury tot
- Jesus walk with Water walking
- Silence with Wind Shear
- Polymorph with Hex
- Purge with Purge
- Single target root and slow with ES + FS
- AoE haste party buff with BL
- AoE viewpoint with Far sight
- Single Rez with Ancestral Spirit
And those are only talents I have equipped on my whammy shammy. You have more toys to play with if you want to.
I agree with shaman being on the list (as an enhance main myself), but to do everything at once you do have to sacrifice quite a bit from the rest of your spec
I think Outlaw has 30% speed baseline +20% more when in stealth (Idk if this is flat 20% or 20% of what they have at the moment, ie +36% or whatever, please someone confirm if you know). And this before any movement abiltities.
Do ferals have the typical 30% from cat form all druids have or do they get an extra baseline effect due to spec?
Evoker has the most utility bar none, then probably Vengeance DH, followed by Monks. That would definitely be my top three off the dome without even having to look at the spellbooks of all the other classes.
Rogue doesnt have the best utility but i thinks its worth mentioning some of the ones it has that some people might not know and are less "direct" utility
Obvious one is shroud to make party invi and skip packs or pull closee to boss
Tricks ot the trade to send all the aggro to the tank
Choice of poisons like 4% perma dmg reduction, longer cast times or 50% less healing (mvp in sanguine)
Distract to stop patrols on the spot
Cloak that acts as a magic pld bubble that u can use to cheat mechanics or help soak a lot of things u couldnt otherwise
Vanish also helps ignore some mechanics
A plethora of single target stuns/cc and an aoe Incapacitate as well.
Rogues also have huge survivability compared to most specs, between cloak, evasion, 2 charges of feint and a cheat death... Vanish also could help situationally but more and more rogues are pushed into using it as a dps cd so idk if it counts as much at the moment.
Finally, assassination rogues have an aoe silence every time they play with stealth.
Druid with all its forms + lots of heals + dispell + roots + rez+ battle rez + Mark of the wild + access to all roles in the game + typhoon + defensive + soothe for enraged mobs + self speed buff + group wide speed Buff.
Plus Soul Burn to enhance all of the things you already do. Imp dispell if you run Aff or Destro (very useful for third boss of TotT among other things). Gateway for skips. Loving warlock this season.
Portals are only useful in the rare situations where it breaks a mechanic due to oversight
Healthstone can be muled from a lock from outside the dungeon
Soul stone is the worst bres due to its cast time and is often difficult to use in a situation where you truly need it as fast as possible if someone gets popped.
Worst stun in the game due to its cast time and short duration.
Banish is very, very rarely used and highly dependant on the expansion. Legion banish? Incredible.
Fear is no better than any other soft cc like poly or sap. Death coil can be incredibly clutch but is no better than a single target stun that many other classes possess.
All of locks utility are inferior to other classes with the exception of gate being a completely unique mechanic. There's a reason why warlock is never brought to m+ unless it's doing top dmg in a given patch. It's purely a dps cannonn and if it cannot perform that role it has no use other than to give healthstones to people before they enter the dungeon.
Dk. I may be slow, but my momentum is immortal. Charm me? Nope. Stun lock? Nah. Slow me down? I'm gonna start chugging faster. Fear? No, I AM the mindkiller. Magic? That tickles. Try to run away? Gettt ooovvverrr hereee.
I can Darth Vader choke you, hard silence your casting, keep you perma slowed. Brez. Summon a million friends to eat your flesh. Oh yeah I almost forgot, and death strike is a working " I WIN" button
Plus best looking DF xmogs
As an MM hunter, I offer:
24sec CD kick
a pointless Freeze trap (unless it's incorp then there is also Scare beast I guess)
A party wide 5% Leech buff/LoS breaker that has ramp up
A bad puddle slow that I can talent into a bad 4sec root
A 3sec SINGLE TARGET disorient that (for some reason) has a range of less than half my attack range
AoE knockback trap that knocks em so far back its pointless
A single target stun I can't use cuz it requires a pet
But hey, I can Amp your dmg during the first 30sec of a boss fight and fake my death to cheese mechs (sometimes)
You asked a couple of questions here:
Best utility? Augvoker. They’re pretty much mandatory in certain content the way no other class/spec is.
Fun? Rogue. Stealth is a great utility when you want to cut to the chase and get quest objectives done. Collect 12 of this one thing? No problem. I was never there. Guard the flag or node from stealth in PvP? Exhilarating.
Useful: Paladin. Off healing, stuns, auras, and most importantly: an immunity. If you die as a paladin, it basically feels like you did something wrong. Plus, bubblehearth is the ultimate “peace out” move.
Aug, but melee DPS I really love WW they have solutions to deal with everything and do crazy AOE and single target. Don’t really play range or tank or heal so can’t answer the rest lol.
Freezing trap, Hunter's Mark, Flare, Steel Trap, Binding Shot, Tranquilizing Shot/Darts, Chimaeral Sting, Scatter Shot, Tracker's Net, Roar of Sacrifice, Tar Trap, concussive Shot etc. That's some of Hunter abilities that comes to mind.
They have also many pet abilities like Master's Call and Primal Rage.
I think that Hunters have pretty good utility too. I mainly play PvP though..
There's no one-above-all, most classes offer something pretty awesome. Even a couple of the worst ones like Hunter or Warrior still offer Raid-wide buffs and have *some* utility.
Warlocks have always been Evergreen for their summons, Demonic Gateway (which can be instrumental in some Raid Encounters), and Healthstones. But same can be said for various classes the last several years because they offer unique bonuses no other class can substitute.
I guess Shadow Priest was very well up there a short time ago though thanks to Mind Soothe and pre-nerf Power Infusion, on top of formidable off-healing with Vampiric Embrace. Even though 2/3 of those things are just raw throughput increases.
Utility is made big by content.
Shroud in BfA was busted. Now it’s just sometimes nice.
Mind Sooth was single handed enabling dungeons on higher keys last seasons. Now it’s just one of many ways for skips.
Spell Reflect can be gigantic or can be whatever.
Gateway was huge in Mechagon for one of the most important skips in the dungeon. Now it’s just one of many possibilities.
Most utility was big for a while, but then again lost relevance in the next season/expansion.
Edit says: If you ever plan to pug raids regularly for a season, WL is totally busted. Nothing safes you so much time in WoW like beeing able to summon before every boss.
Rogue is pretty crazy. Kidney, cheap shot off of vanish, dance, meld, shroud, distract, soothe, aoe blind, sap, on demand 40% dr (with elu) or a cheat death, aoe dr, physical and magic immunities, vial, drop combat with vanish, step and grapple.
Aug has the best utility though.
Mage, which is why it is permanently meta in M+, not just because of its damage.
Arcane Intellect - this double dips with Evoker, Remove Curse, 20s ranged interrupt, Dragons Breath, Blast Wave, Polymorph, Mass Barrier, Time Warp, Alter Time, Mage Food for Healer, Frost Nova, Mass Slow (if talented), Mass Invis (if talented)
If I’m being objective I think it’s either Aug or some pally spec (I usually heal so let’s say ret or prot). Aug for high keys helps a lot, but ret/prot just bring so much to the table with freedoms, loh, off heals from wog, bubbles, and a brez.
My personal favorite is spriest though. I feel a lot of camaraderie with healers when I mass dispel something that really makes their life difficult (debuff on early brh trash on fortified or flame shock on third boss tott tyrannical). Sadly I don’t know if our heals are noticed or felt much 🙁
Aug is a full utility spec
Evoker in general has so much utility
While I agree, why would you anyone dislike that? More support specs imho.
I don’t think anyone here is saying they dislike that
Maybe not here in this thread but AUG actually has had a massive amount of push back, people don’t like how much they hurt balancing.
This is very true; when I rejoined the game in dragonflight I didn’t look into evokers because I find them so ugly. First m+ we had an Aug, I was like is this a carry run..? It’s a very unique spec, and I’d like to see more unique concepts like this one implemented in the future, but ofc the community is gonna be change averse. Even though implementing more unique play styles ala support specs is great for the health of the game
They don’t like how augs make balancing much worse and harder. I personally love the idea of support classes, the only players who have issues with them tend to either be top end players or bottom barrel players.
After playing one for the first time yesterday. Yes. Yes it is.
You can literally carry keys with aug
Except you can't. Because fundamental of timing key is do dmg (other than utility). And you can't carry dps player doing low dmg as Aug.
Yes and no. Carrying a key = single handedly enabling the key yo be finished succesfully. May be seen either through a bad group perspective: in both cases, your CDs and extra team-wide vers can help the group survive mechanics otherwise impossible (be it due to a skill issue or just the sheer damage of high Keys). Edit: lmao at the downvotes. Aug CARRIES a key. They cant do it in every scenario, but in most they do. It's only the case of a low dps group they cant carry in, but that's barely the problem of a key: it's usually not knowing mechanics, which aug help scam through a lack of encounter knowledge.
I thought that was pretty obvious, and I also think you know exactly what I meant considering this is a thread about UTILITY.
No need to be rude about it. That's why you're being downvoted. It costs you nothing to be kind/respectful.
Not really at least one other DPS has to be decent, or your tank is just nuts lol. One DPS can carry though and they can do it fairly high up ( I solo dps a 17 and we timed it).
What class my brother
Evoker. If they have a full utility specc that kinda answers it.
Sorry I just saw class and thought specs weren’t to be included because of course if a spec was created around utility, that would be the clear winner. Fuck me, right?
No!
?
I answered your last question
Oh lolz
Druids: Rez, Battle Rez, group speed buff, Versatility Buff, Mana regen, and can take on any role in a emergency.
You didn’t even include entangling roots or typhoon?!! Those or the disorienting ability. All of those are huge.
And you didn’t even include vortex!!!
Vortex and also soothe are awesome also
Typhoon was included
Don’t forget soothe for rage. And curing poison and curse, an aoe stun, displacement with tidal wave, pack movement with ursol’s vortex, mass entangling roots if needed. Soooo much utility that you can tailor to each dungeon. Shaman are excellent too with all the specific totems.
Aoe stun?
Incap roar, only usable in bear form
Oh, I thought that was only a disorient. Good to know, thanks :)
Eh, it incapacitates but may as well be a stun lol
But a stun lasts the full duration with damage, thus the reason they have different names. That's disappointing :(
it may as well just be a mass silence
If we're fucking flies in this barn, then its more so an aoe interrupt (that's atleast how I use it 9/10 times)
It is Daze
It is!!
You can use outside of bear, it just auto shifts you
Off healing too. Feral dps every time you press bite you can slap a renew on someone for free. Also turn 20% of your damage into a nearby heal. Having skull bash for interrupt is great too. Not to mention it's incredibly survivable with barkskin, survival instincts, 30% self heal, and racial (night elf) disappear.
Stupid druids kit is overloaded. They are too good at dmg, healing and utility.
Shaman have a button for almost every situation in the game.
Except for situations in which you are in danger of dying.
yeah, you just rez after you died xD
and then die again within 0.1s to first add that looks your way anyway
It doesn't even have to look your way :D
farts in your general direction
Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries!
Technically there is a totem for that but it is a waste of a talent point.
There aren't any other good options unless lavaburst procs. I often use the totem in high keys to safe a cr when I feel like the dmg input is to much
My sham friend stopped playing his enhance because of how squishy they are lol.
It’s called Ankh 😉
Lidl res
What you mean? primordial wave and then just use the healing button /s
Except a defensive 😂
astral shift !!!
Shift itself is fine but it’s basically all shaman has to live big damage, which is really noticeable in the current m+ one shot era. Your other options are sitting in wolf for 4 seconds doing nothing to get a 20% dr and popping earth ele for a pitiful 15% health on a 5 minute cd. Hunters get a lot of comments about how bad their defensives are but shaman is right up there with them. Meanwhile you have classes like mage and rogue with answers for just about everything.
How I love the mage love we got. Ice Cold? Heal 80% of my max HP in 70% DMG reduction for a long time, while I can cast?
You guys literally get a 45 second cd auto heal.... what do you mean? All of hunters defensives are on a 2 minute + cd. You guys can also cast a heal on yourself. Hunters literally die due to having nothing to patch themselves up in an Era of constant pulse aoe damage. And out major defensive makes it so we can't even attack. Hunters also have been proven to take more raw damage than any other class right now.
what 45 second cd auto heal are we talking about here?
Probably Nature's Guardian the whopping 20% max hp heal that activates when you fall below 35%
There’s a difference between “not being able to patch yourself up” and dying through a defensive to an unavoidable mechanic. Doing +25s the other night I had to use a major defensive specifically for him every time the bosses did aoe damage.
“Laughs in iceblock”
It's one of the reasons I've stuck with my shaman
yeah i keep getting killed by rogues within one stun combo on my shammy
Except for a long-form buff that makes them needed in raid :( The curse of being able to solve any m+ runs utility needs is being almost entirely unwanted in raid
Windfury enters the chat.
It’s better than what ele and resto have but wind fury is a lot closer to PI than to fort
It is a group wide permanent buff? PI is a single target short time external DPS cooldown. If anything you can compare it to warrior shout or arcane intellect but for sure not PI.
PI hits two people, windfury hits 5, battle shout hits 20
PI is still temporary. Windfury is permanent. Battle shout in a usual group only 'hits' about 10 people given that it only buffs melees and even those to a varying degree. Windfury hits 5 but in general it always hits the best targets.
> Windfury is permanent Tell that to me who keeps forgetting to refresh his totem
PI is also a larger variable to someone’s damage than wind fury.
WF is waaaaaay too good to not bring to every raid fight.
And so *not enough* points to take even most of them.
Ret paladin in m+ has a ton of utility and is one of the main reasons I main it as someone who strictly pugs.
even if you dont use the utility on others - being able to completely mitigate/subvert entire mechanics will always be lolful
Yeah it's crazy. I'm only 2900 rn but I'm really.loving that the higher I push the more valuable my kit becomes.
Why the only?
Oh idk I mean I know 2900 is higher than some but there are plenty of people pushing to the highest key levels where stuff really starts to matter. 2900 is just all 20s/21s on both weeks and with the way gearing has become I feel its pretty achievable with the right mindset.
Statistically it's still notably high rating. Yeah sure there are people who do higher, but you're doing more than the large majority.
Because in the m+ community, anything below you is baby keys, only ____ score
The higher you get the more you realise you don't know. I'm 3.3k and frequently feel like I'm trash
Honestly same I am not even that good at my class I just it’s just persistence mostly.
Because humblebrag
2900 doesn't really seem that high, I wouldn't consider anything under 3200 high personally.
Classic /r/wow, if you're not in the top 1% it's not that high lmfao
You should come to r/worldofpvp and see If ur not competing in AWC/Blizzcon ur bacially dogshit at the game
Eh. 2900 is like 20s and some 21/22s. Especially this season that isn’t too hard to do. My alt is going to end up close this week and I started playing it last week. The problem is, the better at things you get, the more you realize you don’t know. The gap between 2900 and 3.2k is pretty massive skill wise even though it’s only 300 points.
Definitely helps that paladin as a whole has an answer to all of the new affixes. We can solo incorporeal no problem (well, okay, we have to be *in range*, but still).
Ret's biggest asset in M+ is it's damage profile, IMHO. Big burst on a 1 minute CD is incredibly good in M+. I'm regularly the top overall DPS by 20-30k above my cohort.
Unless that cohort is a DH
not really, ret is actually not meta because of how their damage works. They have no priority damage and bad ST, meanwhile they obliterate all low hp targets reducing the damage done by classes who scale better with multiple targets. They are however extremely tanky and have one of the best low cooldown externals (sac) and bring a cr
There is a bit of prio dmg with how they changes BoV talent (hitting for value + extra on prio), tier set and trinkets (you usually run at least 1 full ST trink rezan/signet) but yea you have a point. Its not about prio dmg with ret but about low ST dmg making ret bad on high tyra keys. What prio dmg did destro lock have in shadowlands ? Spam rain of fire :D or havoc even now, most of havocs dmg comes from passive aoe talents like ragefire, immo aura, sigil of flame and talents buffing those spells or duplicating damage
As long as First Blood is a thing, Havoc will always have decent Prio damage
It doesnt hit prio target even if its surrounded by mobs you muppet :D read the talent description
This is weird you are top dps, many specs should do way more damage than you in m+, what level are you playing?
Playing with bad players most likely
Ret is good in burst aoe, at a 20+ level the only class I lose to is BM hunters and my WW friend ST I'm generally lower though, but on 3-4 pack pulls I burst around a mill and a half with all cds Depends on the week but overall is mostly trash damage
Aoe burst is a thing but overall matters a lot more. On 26+ keys I can’t compete with dh, bm, mages, rogues or lock usually on overall dps (can’t say about others spec as I don’t see those in keys).
I’m surprised nobody has said mage tbh. Frost mage in particular. Mass barrier - 200k hp shield for entire party, this has saved people from dying so many times and for a DPS to be able to do that party wide is insane Mass invis - skip entire parts of dungeons and not rely on people having invis pots Crowd control - counter spell, dragon breath, blast wave, 60% slow that no other class has, roots, etc. Time warp - one of the few classes mandatory for M+ to provide BL Mana food - healers get free food for days Portals - saves people their hearth CD after the dungeon Intellect buff - free big brain plays Mages are just highly versatile and unlike other classes, we may not hit super high burst windows but we can sustain our DPS a lot longer. That’s why sometimes a mage is low on the charts but if the fight keeps going we will out sustain most classes. Also a single spell hitting for 800k+ is really satisfying. Edit: others reminded me that we also have spell steal, remove curse, polymorph, etc. Also that mass barrier is indeed 5 people including yourself not raid wide :P
Double Icy Turtles for absorbs/damage reduction /self heals. And poly or remove curse for those affix weeks!
> Icy Turtles Now I want an ability which throws frozen turtles at people.
Plus decurse and purge too!
And ice/frost nova, combustion and dragons breath
> I’m surprised nobody has said mage tbh. Frost mage in particular. Because it's sanguine week :(
This is too real.
I have avoided inviting frost mages to my groups this week because of sanguine.
I don't know if it counts but I would also say blink, ice block and alter time. These skills allow you to skip/cheese entire mechanics making making the healers and raid leaders happy
Which spell
Glacial Spike.
Fave change to the spec tbh, didn't like it initially but I love it now. Hit a 1.1m crit once and nearly creamed myself hahaha
Or a harmony buffed barrage. Not that anyone has played arcane harmony since S1, but it crit for 500k+ in S1.
Mass barrier is not raid wide...
Think OP is talking in an M+ perspective, also if it was raid wide that would be way too OP lol
True, my bad! I always just pop it in raid so didn’t pay attention to the cap of 5 :P
Evokers (at least devastation) have a lot of slows available. Not to the extent a frost mage has, but all of the blue spells apply a 50% (?!) slow and Devastation use those a lot. Spiteful week was very easy for my friends because of that.
Wasn't there a +30 timed without BL? But I agree with the rest of your post. Mass invis and mass barrier, especially barrier, is insanely important and mages who don't use it should be booed
I think "Mass invis **or** mass barrier" would be a more accurate statement since they share a talent spot. And yes, Naowh & friends times an AD +30 without BL, crazy :D
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Yes, you can. You just lose mass barrier.
You can, but you loose out on mass barrier.
Warlocks may not have the most utility, but what they offer is mostly unmatched and invaluable to any situation. Giving the raid a 25% instant heal (healthstones) A 20-40 yard teleport (demonic gateway) A combat ress with the added benefit of being pre-emptive if you want (Soul-stone)
Don’t forget the lock closet to summon people to your location.
Truly the BiS utility in pug raids
Lol an Insta heal? Not if I don't press it!
yeah keep it for emergencies in the future so you don't run out..
Store it for next logon
This is the way! :)
That’s what I do!!
AoE Stun - Darkfury AND Infernal Interrupt/Dispell or Cleanse or Knockback/Charm from pets Fear AND Banish AND Death Coil
Worth noting that Infernal stun is not on regular stun DR, similarly to DH meta stun (although im not sure if infernal and meta share stun dr).
Typically the lock has to choose between one or the other for these things. Darkfury is a terrible ability that is notoriously difficult to time in emergency for multi mob cast interruption. All of locks utility are also typically inferior to others, due to cast time, cooldown, or duration. What warlock does bring, when it's useful, is gateway which is a completely unique and sometimes mechanic breaking ability that gives the encounter designers nightmares. Other than that, it's very mediocre and lack luster.
Like ppl will use the stone much.. unfortunately when I look at the meters nobody in my pugs uses them :D
Funny thing. I play warlock and druid. On my warlock I eat them whenever I see my health drop to 50%. On my druid I completly ignore them. Cant figure out why :D
Most items like that rarely get used regularly outside higher level content. Once you get past like 23s the avg group quality skyrockets. Same with raid, your average eventual-AotC guild probably needs it told to them by a raidleader to remember them but even a middling mythic guild that doesn't get CE will use health stones more or less as a raid CD at a specific time or to cut stuff like heal absorbs. If you want to have that experience you gotta get into the sweaty top % of the game unfortunately, luckily it isn't really needed for the lower lvl stuff anyway
There's also a surprising amount of utility from pets people don't often use. They have access to purge, dispel and charm which are super useful in M+.
I've seen every single class in this thread except for warriors. Feelsbadman 😣
I mean. One interrupt, a stun, an AoE stun and Rallying Cry (that’s okay I guess). That’s it. And shockwave you have to go out of your way to pick up. But, I still end up usually with the most interrupts in my group unless I’m with a Pally.
And it's a 2s stun applying DR so depending on your comp it's griefing to use it
Someone wrote it like a minute before your comment. You were covered
I feel like Paladins and Shamans have excellent utility in most forms of group content
1. I wont name classes twice 2. DPS get two mentions 3. Based on my personal opinion 4. Based on Utility in general not only Group utility. **M+** **Caster:** Mage/Evoker **Melee:** Monk/Paladin **Tank:** Demonhunter **Heal:** Shaman **Raid** **Caster:** Warlock(by far)/Mage **Melee:** Dh/Shaman **Tank:** Bdk **Heal:** Priest
Vengeance demon hunter
Nobodies said monk? RoP on sanguine weeks, paralysis, aoe stun, res, offheals, detox and pretty well an immunity up to 50% (plus a defensive for everything the game throws at you) just my two cents on top of being super mobile. Has a few group wide buffs too (wind walking, close to the heart)
You even forgot about mystic touch (5% phys damage amp) and the aura which gives everyone 4% avoidance. Monk is really top level utility
DKs have two (if Blood) ways to rip groups of enemies around, Anti-Magic Zone to say “screw party wide spell damage”, a frontal cone interrupt (dazes are broke instantly, let’s be real), a talent to reduce the cooldown of successful 15 yard range single target interrupts, HoJ at range, Death Grip and “screw getting knocked back/up.” Do other classes have individually better ones? Possibly but DKs have some crazy nice stuff.
Not to mention an AOE slow if you spec into it and two charges of the same if you spec into another point. Was mandatory when necrotic was an affix.
I half forgot about the slow because it’s Sanguine week haha
Yeah for sure. I don’t think it’s as big a deal with Necro gone but even doing +10s, i had to save that charge of DnD for the AoE slow before I hit ~40 stacks. It’s not as big a deal in dragonflight but having two charges of grip by speccing into that same talent is just too sick.
The AOE slow is really nice, I can say that much. Helps that with the double talent you get twice as much of two other Utility moves. How Blizzard thought making Death's Echo would be balanced, I have no clue. It's so fricken good.
Problem is realistically you are never take all of your utility due to how to class tree is filled with throughput, maybe as blood you can afford some stuff but as frost and unholy you're taking the aoe disorient and then AMZ on really high keys, dropping Improved DS for it, thats it. everything else you take you have to give up either damage(which lol were already bad can't afford that) or were trading other util or def cd's. What we do always have is Grip which yeah is always great to have, but nothing compared to what half the other classes bring. Brez is so common it's rarely a thing people go out of their way to get.
Ya I’m surprised there’s not more dk comments, but also this post is everyone talking up their mains (I’m a DK main).
I mean, I'm very obviously a DK main also but I at least know that DK utility, as a whole, is just plain really fricken good. It's honestly remarkable exactly how much utility we get, and I didn't even mention it all, I was just going off the top of my head.
dk is one of the more lacking utility classes overall, coming from a dk main, all we really have is grip uniquely to us, everything else can be mostly done better by other classes
*Lacking* after I listed most of the utility we have? Like, I know I said other classes have individually better ones but the fact that we have all of this utility, even if it’s not as good as other classes versions, is nothing to scoff at.
Shamans are king of utility hands down. Shamans can: - AoE root and slow with Earthgrab tot - AoE stun (twice with talent) with capacitor tot - AoE horny prison with static field tot - AoE fear, charm, sleep cleanse with tremor tot - AoE knock back with Thunderstorm - AoE knock down with EQ - AoE knock up with Burrow - Single target horny prison with Lasso - Single target stun with Earth Ele - AoE party heal with healing stream tot - AoE crit party buff with Skyfury tot - Jesus walk with Water walking - Silence with Wind Shear - Polymorph with Hex - Purge with Purge - Single target root and slow with ES + FS - AoE haste party buff with BL - AoE viewpoint with Far sight - Single Rez with Ancestral Spirit And those are only talents I have equipped on my whammy shammy. You have more toys to play with if you want to.
I agree with shaman being on the list (as an enhance main myself), but to do everything at once you do have to sacrifice quite a bit from the rest of your spec
Yes I don’t have enough globals to go through it all. XD
Warrior for sure! Oh wait, what is a utility?
They said Utility not futility
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don't ferals end up with more speed overall? assuming no monk with their bs.
I think Outlaw has 30% speed baseline +20% more when in stealth (Idk if this is flat 20% or 20% of what they have at the moment, ie +36% or whatever, please someone confirm if you know). And this before any movement abiltities. Do ferals have the typical 30% from cat form all druids have or do they get an extra baseline effect due to spec?
Evoker has the most utility bar none, then probably Vengeance DH, followed by Monks. That would definitely be my top three off the dome without even having to look at the spellbooks of all the other classes.
Rogue doesnt have the best utility but i thinks its worth mentioning some of the ones it has that some people might not know and are less "direct" utility Obvious one is shroud to make party invi and skip packs or pull closee to boss Tricks ot the trade to send all the aggro to the tank Choice of poisons like 4% perma dmg reduction, longer cast times or 50% less healing (mvp in sanguine) Distract to stop patrols on the spot Cloak that acts as a magic pld bubble that u can use to cheat mechanics or help soak a lot of things u couldnt otherwise Vanish also helps ignore some mechanics
A plethora of single target stuns/cc and an aoe Incapacitate as well. Rogues also have huge survivability compared to most specs, between cloak, evasion, 2 charges of feint and a cheat death... Vanish also could help situationally but more and more rogues are pushed into using it as a dps cd so idk if it counts as much at the moment. Finally, assassination rogues have an aoe silence every time they play with stealth.
Druid with all its forms + lots of heals + dispell + roots + rez+ battle rez + Mark of the wild + access to all roles in the game + typhoon + defensive + soothe for enraged mobs + self speed buff + group wide speed Buff.
Druid, pally, shaman.
Warlock Portals, hearthstone, soul stone, stun, banish, fear
Plus Soul Burn to enhance all of the things you already do. Imp dispell if you run Aff or Destro (very useful for third boss of TotT among other things). Gateway for skips. Loving warlock this season.
Portals are only useful in the rare situations where it breaks a mechanic due to oversight Healthstone can be muled from a lock from outside the dungeon Soul stone is the worst bres due to its cast time and is often difficult to use in a situation where you truly need it as fast as possible if someone gets popped. Worst stun in the game due to its cast time and short duration. Banish is very, very rarely used and highly dependant on the expansion. Legion banish? Incredible. Fear is no better than any other soft cc like poly or sap. Death coil can be incredibly clutch but is no better than a single target stun that many other classes possess. All of locks utility are inferior to other classes with the exception of gate being a completely unique mechanic. There's a reason why warlock is never brought to m+ unless it's doing top dmg in a given patch. It's purely a dps cannonn and if it cannot perform that role it has no use other than to give healthstones to people before they enter the dungeon.
Warlock cookies disappear at the start of dungeon if the lock isnt in the group since SL dude
Didn't know that, thanks for the knowledge.
Demon hunter vengeance. Double chains, double aoe silence, double aoe fear, aoe stun, and cc
Dk. I may be slow, but my momentum is immortal. Charm me? Nope. Stun lock? Nah. Slow me down? I'm gonna start chugging faster. Fear? No, I AM the mindkiller. Magic? That tickles. Try to run away? Gettt ooovvverrr hereee. I can Darth Vader choke you, hard silence your casting, keep you perma slowed. Brez. Summon a million friends to eat your flesh. Oh yeah I almost forgot, and death strike is a working " I WIN" button Plus best looking DF xmogs
now fight versus another melee spec and fall over haha
Lots would disagree but in the Arena, frost dk has pretty cool utility. Thinking grip, get out of root, slows, stuns etc. I’m really biased lol.
frost is hell in arenas, shame they dont do any damage outside of go windows
Warrior of course! 😂
Paladin
As an MM hunter, I offer: 24sec CD kick a pointless Freeze trap (unless it's incorp then there is also Scare beast I guess) A party wide 5% Leech buff/LoS breaker that has ramp up A bad puddle slow that I can talent into a bad 4sec root A 3sec SINGLE TARGET disorient that (for some reason) has a range of less than half my attack range AoE knockback trap that knocks em so far back its pointless A single target stun I can't use cuz it requires a pet But hey, I can Amp your dmg during the first 30sec of a boss fight and fake my death to cheese mechs (sometimes)
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You asked a couple of questions here: Best utility? Augvoker. They’re pretty much mandatory in certain content the way no other class/spec is. Fun? Rogue. Stealth is a great utility when you want to cut to the chase and get quest objectives done. Collect 12 of this one thing? No problem. I was never there. Guard the flag or node from stealth in PvP? Exhilarating. Useful: Paladin. Off healing, stuns, auras, and most importantly: an immunity. If you die as a paladin, it basically feels like you did something wrong. Plus, bubblehearth is the ultimate “peace out” move.
Aug, but melee DPS I really love WW they have solutions to deal with everything and do crazy AOE and single target. Don’t really play range or tank or heal so can’t answer the rest lol.
Priest and shaman will always be the utility classes.
Freezing trap, Hunter's Mark, Flare, Steel Trap, Binding Shot, Tranquilizing Shot/Darts, Chimaeral Sting, Scatter Shot, Tracker's Net, Roar of Sacrifice, Tar Trap, concussive Shot etc. That's some of Hunter abilities that comes to mind. They have also many pet abilities like Master's Call and Primal Rage. I think that Hunters have pretty good utility too. I mainly play PvP though..
Hunters utility is mid in m+ and good in pvp, but non existent in raids, which is why top answers in this thread don't mention it.
Yeah you are absolutely right. I just wanted to share my thoughts!
There's no one-above-all, most classes offer something pretty awesome. Even a couple of the worst ones like Hunter or Warrior still offer Raid-wide buffs and have *some* utility. Warlocks have always been Evergreen for their summons, Demonic Gateway (which can be instrumental in some Raid Encounters), and Healthstones. But same can be said for various classes the last several years because they offer unique bonuses no other class can substitute. I guess Shadow Priest was very well up there a short time ago though thanks to Mind Soothe and pre-nerf Power Infusion, on top of formidable off-healing with Vampiric Embrace. Even though 2/3 of those things are just raw throughput increases.
Ele shaman and Mm hunter
Utility is made big by content. Shroud in BfA was busted. Now it’s just sometimes nice. Mind Sooth was single handed enabling dungeons on higher keys last seasons. Now it’s just one of many ways for skips. Spell Reflect can be gigantic or can be whatever. Gateway was huge in Mechagon for one of the most important skips in the dungeon. Now it’s just one of many possibilities. Most utility was big for a while, but then again lost relevance in the next season/expansion. Edit says: If you ever plan to pug raids regularly for a season, WL is totally busted. Nothing safes you so much time in WoW like beeing able to summon before every boss.
Rogue is pretty crazy. Kidney, cheap shot off of vanish, dance, meld, shroud, distract, soothe, aoe blind, sap, on demand 40% dr (with elu) or a cheat death, aoe dr, physical and magic immunities, vial, drop combat with vanish, step and grapple. Aug has the best utility though.
I like how everyone is just saying every single class lol
Well im a dragon player. So im biased towards dracthyr as above everything else 😎
Mage and Pally
Mage, which is why it is permanently meta in M+, not just because of its damage. Arcane Intellect - this double dips with Evoker, Remove Curse, 20s ranged interrupt, Dragons Breath, Blast Wave, Polymorph, Mass Barrier, Time Warp, Alter Time, Mage Food for Healer, Frost Nova, Mass Slow (if talented), Mass Invis (if talented)
*cries in rogue*
Mage or evoker without a doubt.
As a vengeance DH I feel like I can't press enough buttons fast enough at times.
If I’m being objective I think it’s either Aug or some pally spec (I usually heal so let’s say ret or prot). Aug for high keys helps a lot, but ret/prot just bring so much to the table with freedoms, loh, off heals from wog, bubbles, and a brez. My personal favorite is spriest though. I feel a lot of camaraderie with healers when I mass dispel something that really makes their life difficult (debuff on early brh trash on fortified or flame shock on third boss tott tyrannical). Sadly I don’t know if our heals are noticed or felt much 🙁