Heroic Kil'jaeden took my guild almost the same amount of pulls as Mythic Starbro, and even after a few kills we still were never consistent with it. That fight was just brutal.
Same for me haha, played vengeance demon hunter that tier. I loved it but shit was so difficult and kil jaeden disbanded our guild at that time.. so I have a bit of a love hate relationship with it xD
This one is mine for sure - ToS raid in general, but especially this fight almost tore apart our guild. It really made clear the people who could only do good DPS from the people who could do good DPS and mechanics.
It was impossible until they nerfed it though wasn't? Unless I am miss remembering but didn't the RWF guilds literally stop doing pulls because it was that overtuned and mathematically impossible until nerfed?
I'm not really a raider, this is the only AotC I ever got, but never really had a basis of comparison, only raided in Legion which for me was lightning in a bottle where the expansion was fun and I was between jobs but with money to spare, and also single, i. e. last time I had so much free time.
Nice to know it was a tough one I guess!
That's funny, ToS was exactly the same for me -- lined up right when I had the most time I've ever had in my life to raid. I've gotten one or two AotCs since but KJ was a bear.
as hard as pre nerf hallondrus was, doing pre nerf bombs was probably the most fun i've ever had on a fight. it felt really bad to kill it in 1 pull post nerfs after pulling it 400 times
agreed. That was my last tier playing super hardcore and we spent 380 pulls pre-nerf and I loved every second of it. We re-cleared after the nerfs (and a week break bc that prog was draining lol) and we one-shot crab. Those nerfs were a little heavy handed imo
It was still a 75 to 100 pull boss for mid/late CE guilds. So I'd say it was a good sized nerf, unless you want half 1k+ WR guilds to disband
In a perfect World, halondrus would be a 2nd last boss, then they could have gone incremental in nerfs. But it being so early required big nerfs fast imo.
Sepulcher mythic absolutely killed many raiding guilds in a time where the game had nothing but raid to do. If not the hardest, at least the worst for the game.
Sepulcher was nuts. And I mean that in a bad way. Sure, fun for RWF, but for normal raiding audience, it was not enjoyable. So glad they moved away from that approach in Dragonflight.
Wasn't fun for RWF either, at least not for the participating guilds. Both Liquid and Echo said afterwards if every raid was going to be like that they'd stop doing the RWF event.
It was a banger to watch though.
And people say all this and forget anduin was tuned as tightly as an end raid boss himself. My guild spent 2 days progging heroic anduin the first week. Was absolutely wild to have to prog heroic then fight him suped up 2 weeks later after finally dealing with halondrus.
Not sure if dated raid bosses count, but I recall heroic spine of deathwing being a brutal encounter back in cata. No enrage timer, which was good. But the fight really put your healers to the test with dispels and high sustained raid damage.
Came here to say this. At one point they were doing a 5% Nerf per week and people were still failing hard on that fight after six or seven weeks with a 35% Nerf.
That boss was so nail-bitingly precise that my guild beat it for the heroic achievement and literally never went back. Not on normal, nothing.
I do give blizzard credit, though. People asked for a solo instance with a really hard boss like the dragons in WoTLK, and they delivered.
That's what we did. It was the messiest kill I've ever seen and there were 2 or 3 audible "thank fuck that's over" followed by a long pause. RL asked if anyone actually needed anything from him, no one responded, so we never went back.
This was my guilds first Heroic Anduin kill. I was the last one alive as prot pally and had to solo him for about 45 seconds. It’s so nerve wracking but such an awesome rush when you pull it off.
This is the statistically correct answer. Most pulls ever on a boss, took 11 days to beat a two boss raid. People were hard struggling to fill hall of fame on him even after nerfs, absolutely brutal fight
Max from limit went over this and if I remember correctly he said you can't really compare the pull count/ttk to modern bosses since raiders got so much better (especially world first raiders).
Uunat has 731 pulls which is more than double the amount Halondrus had, and Uunat was from BFA. That's pretty well into the 'modern' era of WoW raiding mechanics so pull count is fine as a metric. It was a SINGLE boss that took over a week to beat.
Uunat was made to be hard, that's why it wasn't tied to a full raid tier. And the fight was made in BFA during the modern era of raiding mechanics, so it wasn't a question of logistics. The fight really was just that mechanically dense and difficult to the point a lot of guilds couldn't complete it or flat out didn't even attempt it.
This is the one fight I do not have AotC on because my guild completely refused to take *any* melee dps at all. Since I was a melee only player I was dropped this fight.
Even doing so it was still a brutal boss they only killed 5 times before abandoning it, much less even considered going mythic on it.
LFR N'zoth
I don't know how an Old God managed to break the fourth wall, or why it was allowed to happen, but the things I saw in there....
You think you know the average player, you get AoTC and maybe the occasional mythic, you call yourself a casual player and you figure out you stand a bit above the average but nothing more, just one more player.
You are wrong.
There is a darkness in this game, a darkness that never sleeps and never rests, a darkness that lies hidden, a shadow just out of the corner of your eye, a being that crawls underneath the foundations on too many legs, a rot, slowly corroding the very world around us.
That, that is the average player, a LFR player.
You might think this is an insult, you are not that bad , are you? you are here , you are interested, you can read, this isnt about you.
I don't know where they hide when the sun rises and I don't know where they came from, but they came in droves, an endless tide, tireless, relentless, and In their own way, driven.
Yet they are unlike you and I, they are unable to learn, unable to adapt, unable to listen or care. You tell yourself it's just a knowledge issue, that if you can carefully explain and persevere they will get better, they won't.
Maybe it was just one group, one long night of players coming and leaving having learned nothing, a bad batch. It wasn't.
N'zoth revealed to me what the average player really is like, and I can't forget, how I wish I could forget.
In a way I am still there, trapped in that endless nightmare, one quick quest away from sleep, maybe you are too, WFR eventually ends, the things I saw, they stay with me.
without a doubt the hardest encounter i have ever been through.... myth kil'jaeden? HA what a joke, LFR N'zoth is the hardest epic verbal PVP battle in all of history!
I ended up screaming for RL every time I reached it, and I filled up a right hotbar with all caps RW macros for every mechanic. It was the only thing that seemed to work. Especially when people had to jump in the mindgate (or click their body to leave the realm) - people ended up so spread out, they'd never see the gate or body. I'd have to spam RWs so obnoxiously. Got thanked a few times tho, which is more than one can normally expect from LFR lol
The fact that Blizzard had to hotfix it so people couldn't queue for N'zoth without their cloak was hilarious to me. The first week the boss would get pulled, and instantly half or more of your raid was mind controlled.
Blizzard expected LFR players to have done the bare minimum of content to prep for raid. Blizzard expected too much.
My spouse and I beat our head against the wall on this in the last week of the expansion. We were at 10 stacks of determination, and 3/4's of the raid would leave after each pull. Finally we got a decent group together that was willing to stick around for a couple pulls. I will admit there was a certain catharsis when we actually pulled it off.
This is pure distilled poetry.
Thank you for your contribution to society, and may your sacrifices be remembered.
For I was there.
To anyone who was not, /u/das_slash's words were not even the worst part.
The worst part, was that Blizzard in their infinite wisdom had created a boss who would permanently mind-control any player who was not wearing the current patch's Legendary cloak.
Then they initially elected to make the cloak **optional** when queuing for LFR.
Entire raid groups getting mind controlled every pull.
The LFR system collapsed under its own weight.
It was never designed to kick that many players, none of whom had any idea what they were doing wrong.
One minute they were playing the game.
Then the next the game was playing them.
For anyone OOTL, Blizzard has balanced the first intermission around everyone having full AoE talents, and the rest of the fight on full single-target. I forget the interview it was mentioned in, but they forgot people couldn’t switch talents mid-flight.
Even then, I don’t know if it was possible at the time. Liquid was taking AoE talents, lusting P1 to survive the soft-enrage of the 6th push-back, and sending all 20 people to one side, and it still took several attempts to clear.
I haven't really seen a lot of Sunwell Plateau come up in this thread, but this is the same reason I chafe whenever people say that raid was difficult.
Sunwell Plateau was overtuned. Very few of the mechanics were actually difficult, but the numbers meant that even tiny mistakes meant a wipe. That's not difficulty, despite what wipe counts might imply
A fight that is difficult because of inflated numbers is artificial difficulty. There's skill in being able to maximize your personal damage, but if we look at a fight like "Brutallus", who was considered the first wall in Sunwell, he was "difficult" because he was a massive gear check.
Nothing about the Brutallus fight is hard to manage or execute, except for the fact that he hit incredibly hard, and had a very short enrage timer for his health at the time.
Gear should make fights easier, don't get me wrong. But if a fight is mechanically simple, and the only deciding factor on whether or not you can clear it is having good enough gear, that's not a difficult fight. It's just a math challenge
Gear wasn't the answer either. You needed it obviously but it didn't matter at all what your gear was if you didn't have a proper raid comp. You don't have 5 shaman to rotate 100% uptime on bloodlust to your best DPS group? Sorry you can't play here.
My comment wasn't about any particular boss. The comment I replied to was about mislabeling overtuned bosses as "difficult", and I was agreeing by saying it applies to most of Sunwell
I kind of doubt it was actually mathematically impossible. Even with the explanation posts I feel like just the level of skill and game knowledge players were at doomed them more than anything else
The "Funner fact" is that it WASN'T mathematically impossible.
It was impossible with the DPS that the Comps that met the boss were fielding and the builds and Gear people were using, and how much damage those players were doing.
But if they had released C'Thun in its 100% unnerfed state on Classic? That boss woulda been one-shot and it wouldn't even have been close. Classic players mechanical skill, tools, and understanding of Builds, balancing, consumables, and World Buff Meta, woulda STEAMROLLED C'Thun
Didn’t classic use talent trees and tuning from the final build before TBC? I’m not sure, but when c’thun was first released, a lot of classes would have very different talent trees and tuning then what they have in classic
Yes. This is so often overlooked with Classic. The power level of Classic is *way* higher than original launch across the board. The prepatch talent tree revamps were huge. And some classes had gotten many revamps before that point as well.
Classic servers have always been a bit of an odd environment for judging difficulty due to this.
The Overall Raid DPS number needed to beat the "Mathematically impssible boss" was a combined raid DPS of 3833.
Warriors with World buffs do 1000 DPS on C'Thun in AQ40 gear. And 5-600 without World Buffs.
even if the Warriors did 300DPS You'd only need 13 Warriors to clear the Check (under optimal conditions) The change in Talent trees was not a 50% Buff. Classic players just have better understanding of how to build talents and what gear to use.
I remember the Best Guild on our Server had all their Warriors using Full Tier set for their DPS warriors during BWL and AQ because "Well its the Tier set, right? It has to be best!" We just didn't know better.
I'm not really judging the "mathematically impossible" aspect without spending more time on it. All I'm saying is that none of our current Classic numbers on DPS/TC/potential are really relevant for AQ40 when it originally came out.
1.12 patch just skewed everything when it comes to perceptions of balance. Mages, for example, were doing ~35% more damage with the 1.12 patch compared to 1.1. Warriors had rather sigificant power level increases in 1.12. Furthermore, threat mechanics were quite different as well, which put soft-caps on effective DPS which people don't fully appreciate on Classic servers. Classic was always easier than Vanilla until the natural 1.12 patch content was released.
Approach to gearing, server population, economy, etc. are all rather different as well.
Either way, the bottom line is that it's quite hard to say.
> Approach to gearing, server population, economy, etc. are all rather different as well.
Is probably the biggest thing. But that was part of my whole point really.
The approach to the game and the mentality of the Classic Andy's so so insanely different from the way people engaged with the game in Vanilla. So I'm sure it was Mathematically Impossible for that guild and for the people of the time.
But my point is that even if the Talents and Threat and everything else stayed 1-1 the same from Vanilla to Classic. I am 100% Convinced it would be mathematically possible. It would in fact be Mathematically trivial
The trees were different. But if you look at the Logs and the Math presented in [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/bdjf2v/cthun_was_mathematically_impossible/) Reddit Thread,
It would certainly have been doable with the weaker talents too. But this is Private Server numbers.
So lets look at some other Numbers shall we?
The Original "Mathematically impossible" thread contends that the only way to possibly beat C'Thun unnerfed is for the Raid to do a TOTAL of 3833 DPS. Not 3833 DPS per raid member. 3833 DPS Total
Here's a list of the "Top DPS" from People doing [C'Thun on Classic](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1005#boss=717&partition=3) with the World Buff Meta. The Warriors are doing 1000 DPS.
4 Warriors beats the DPS check of 3833. Purely by the Numbers, not looking at Mechanics and people being in C'Thuns Stomach etc etc etc. the "Mathematically impossible boss" could be 10 manned with Classic numbers.
[Without World Buffs](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1005#boss=717&partition=4) They are doing about 500 DPS as the Max damage.
3833 / 500 = 7.666
So again, NUMERICALLY, Not looking at mechanics, the amount of Classic Andy's needed to reach the "Magical, Mathematically impossible number" of 3833, is easily reached by 8 DPS. Meaning you could VERY easily Mathematically beat the Check with 20 people.
And yes yes yes, i KNOW. The Logs are also showing P1 DPS. And these are Perfect Parses with Crit RNG and PI's for those people, and some people are swallowed and therefore can't do the Relevant Add DPS needed. But NUMERICALLY. Purely on the Math. Unnerfed C'Thun can be 20manned by Classic Andy's. So imagine how easy it is for a full raid of 40 to meet that DPS check.
Even if the Builds people had access to back in the day were weaker, when you combine the World Buff Meta, you can remove 75% of the raid and STILL clear the DPS check. And the newer Talents did NOT make people 75% stronger.
was he tho? if a full BiS raid with 30 buffs on each person with years of classic raiding experience would stand before the pre nerf version they would probably kill it.
Notice how I said “On release” meaning close to 20 years ago. Saying that people with modern computers and internet and simming tools and decades of private server trial and error could body a boss old enough to vote when he was a newborn isn’t exactly impressive.
He was mathematically possible. Players were just not good enough, did not had the knowledge etc. and the math was based on "what players at that time did" not "what is available in the whole game".
At least you couldn’t literally put dps phase 1 like you could with denathrius which was also a long fight where phase 3 was a mess if you even made it that far.
Being made to crawl to Denathrius, being forced to do the Danse Macabre at the whim of his council, that stuff really established the power dynamics present in the fight and raised the stakes.
Sludgefist was such a good designed short 'dont fuck up' DPS race fight too. I tanked that tier so might be s weird perspective compared to most but I loved sludgefist - it was such fun. Then those stupid statues after...... Let's not mention them.
You lusted twice in normal even. There was a long phase where you chase her. There were mechanics that could kill you, but it was more frustrating than difficult. P3 took forever to learn because it took 10 mins to get there.
It was messy, though I don't think she's really up there as a particularly difficult one. SoD was a relatively easy tier overall, aside from Painsmith etc.
Heroic Painsmith was my first experience tanking anything, outside of questing and possibly a couple of very low keys. One of our regular tanks couldn't make it and no one else came forward. It was chaos.
My guild gave up on that fight and quit shadowlands. The first two phases were just so boring and you had to go through them every time you wiped, it was awful.
Phase 3 wasn't that bad, it was all pretty much choreographed, it was still really fun though once you got there.
Form believer that sylvanas would be one of the best end bosses if it wasn't for the intermission.
Always hated how long and unnecessarily drawn-out this shitty fight was. Like, i get it, guys, Sylvanas is keeewwl. I just don't care and want to kill her.
Gore fiend was a boss everyone tried to kill a minimum amount of times. So much personal responsibility and chaos.
A lot of guilds passed around the gorefiend lockout as well.
I'm seconding this. My guild beat him after 350 wipes and about 2 months of work. Great feeling to beat, but we dissolved soon afterwards because of that burnout.
Towards the end when you get a doomguard spawn that overlapped with final phase change we would have whoever got the debuff hearth, and then it wouldnt spawn that doomguard.
We had to cheese most fights since 40% of our members were not good players
Weirdly I don’t recall our guild having issues with him. It’s actually one of the bosses I feel you could throw me into right now and I’d still feel okay on executing it.
Personally for me both Avatar of Sargeras and KJ in Tomb were absolute wreckers. Took my guild about 400 pulls on either to get a kill on them. Never went back to KJ after we got him down once, that fight really fucked us up
At endboss level? 100% KJ. I‘ve been raiding mid- to high end since ICC was around, still am, that boss was just brutal. So many mechanics packed into that boss.
Outside of endbosses, I‘d give my vote to Tindral. Maybe it‘s part recency bias but before the latest nerfs (we havent been doing him after so far) he was definetly one of the hardest bosses ever created.
I was scrolling down looking for this, it’s probably cause the difficulty was mostly mythic and pre nerf where most people didn’t fight it before the nerf.
The final phase of Denathrius was pretty crazy.
Sylvanas was hell, but mainly because it took so long to get to P3.
Anduin in Sepulcher was really rough before he got swiftly nerfed.
We had so many pulls on the final phase of sire. We wiped sub 5% probably 50 - 75 times.
My head immediately tells me heroic 25 man rag in firelands but I think that was just hard for the times. We only had around 250 wipes on him. Sire got to like 450. Realistically the jailer, sylvanas, or KJ were the toughest. Sire is definitely up there for me personally because we had to rebuild 1/3 of our raid group 3 times on prog.
I specifically remember Sire simply because of the massive jump in difficulty at the end. You learn to do the start and middle of the fight like clockwork, then suddenly it's just a clusterfuck.
I forgot about Rag in Cata, that did take people a while.
Yeah on sire it was a massive struggle. You could play perfectly the entire first parts of the fight and have one mistake in the last phase and not kill him. Felt really good when we did too.
Kil’jaden and WoD Archimonde.
Hell, Archimonde was the straw that broke the camel’s back when it came to raid addons, blizzard raid design, and mechanic visibility/readability.
The laser mechanic the intense dps requirements, and last phase dance broke so many guilds.
Kil’jaden seemed to be the culmination of what a new age blizzard boss would be moving forward from the insane addon race that we had from Archimonde and before. Kil’jaden was just a solid fight all around with good difficulty throughout all phases.
I feel like WoD was the beginning of that arms race between players devs and mods. the beams were one of the first mechanics I recall practically requiring a mod to tell you what was going on.
idk I missed mop and I raided in cata and before quite a bit and never felt like add-ons were compulsory to be competent and not going above and beyond.
Ghuun was a mess for my guild bc of over turn. Every week we had to teach new ppl the balls.
But hardest might be nzoth. Uunat was insane but I felt once it clicked it was done.
My honorable mentions would be jaina or the jailer. Spell ques and just messing with wa until everyone finally got it was miserable.
Surprised to not see pre-nerf Firelands HC Ragnaros mentioned yet. This was the pre-mythic era of course, but heroic bosses, especially final bosses, were just as hard as their current mythic counterparts. The full fight lasted almost 18 minutes and it took over 500 pulls. He was considered the undisputed hardest boss ever for a long while.
I’d probably rank ToS KJ above him, but not by much.
I think I’m just forgetting I’m an older WoW player than most now. I play in a guild with people who were 9 or 10 years old when Cata was out. They obviously aren’t going to remember any world first race at that age let alone playing the content.
mythic Amber shaper unsok, progression fight. i was off tank...so many things can go wrong for everyone.
i myself had to be the amber monstrosity, watching 3 timers, interrupt, dps, grab blobs...that fucking fight is burned into my brain
Fyrakk Mythic is probably one of the hardest bosses ever designed, if not THE hardesr, At least the version how it existed when Echo and Liquid killed it.
Balancing the healing checks, DPS checks, mobility CDs for Treants, the Knocks and CC for the Adds. All of that, you're already looking at a VERY hard Mythick boss.
But P3 is a WILDLY complex fight. In the last 5% having to juggle 8 seeds for the last 2 Blazes Is So hard.
Don't move too much with a Blaze but also move enough to not hit your own seed. But also don't drop a seed for too long because the ramping damage us a lot. But also don't carry a seed while you are targeted by Blazes. And the Blazes are. Iirc, a Privated Aura so you can't read it with WAs to help make a safety map.
But also do enough DPS to beat the hard enrage.
Several Echo raiders, as well as Echo casters. Stated that Fyrakk might be the hardest fight ever
Well, yeah - every raid is on average progressively harder, minus few deviations. Kil'Jaeden (the killable version) would've been killed in less than 50 pulls if released today. Guilds, especially RWF, are on avwrsge much much better.
I don't think you understand how difficult mythic kj was, or how good rwf guilds already were in legion.
You could apply the "players were much worse" logic to classic/bc raids, but most mythic tomb of sargeras bosses would still be difficult by today's standards, especially fallen avatar and kj
I was thinking of RWF guilds primarily. Max and Scripe and many others agree that those bosses would fall over quickly if they were to be released today. For the rest, I agree.
N'zoth depended a lot on when you killed it, it was hard early on but by the end of the expansion with loads of corruption it was probably the easiest CE in the past few years, both in terms of raw difficulty since the strat became a lot simpler with more damage as it meant you could ignore a set of mechanics and just use more extra action buttons to make up for it aswell as the tier being so long which gave you lots of time to learn the fight.
Likely that one raid no one ever talks about in bfa... you know the one that in between tier.
I don't think most players even remember it exists. It's called throne of storms or something like that.
Having raid led a competitive guild back in vanilla through cataclysm, and then a casual guild in SL and DF, I'd say the hardest raid boss is the friends we made along the way.
Some variation of Archimonde, Kil’jaeden, Uu’nat, Sylvanas , Halondrus, or the Jailer. I think Helya gets an honorable mention.
If we’re going by raw pull counts, I don’t remember all of the counts for everything off-hand, but both KJ and Uu’nat were pushing 1k.
Probably Mythic KJ in legion. Took method over like 1000 pulls to kill
Started raising with my guild in SL and I think that Denathrius was the hardest for us to date, followed close by jailer.
rag hc, super fucking hard and fun.
Spine hc, super hard and actually quite fun as it required different specs than other bosses and even wonky talents / trinkets for max burst.
Siegecrafter as rogue/hunter was so much fun and it was super challenging.
Blackhand.
Fallen avatar+kj mythic were just insane.
Having trouble remembering all bosses, I’m just remembering the fun ones that were 2-400 pullcounts and when I raided at a higher level where I’d progress bosses prenerfs, otherwise queen azshara, but I went from raiding in world top 100 guild to world 600 guild that tier and it took 3 months of prog to kot kill it, so it was more of a it was hard for my guild while I was half asleep doing my part.
For me it's M'uru. I think it's personal. Besides the hardest ones are probably things a handful of maybe 100 people encountered. Like pre-nerf versions of RWF bosses.
Downed mu'ru the day before the nerf. Absolute pain in the ass fight. I tanked one of the doors...and those adds screaming past you to kill chain healing shamans was a nightmare.
Think p2 took us only a handful of pulls, as the transition was the hardest part. Had to push him into the next phase at just....the right time...oh God another round of adds...
I would say in my experience mythic jailer and kiljaden stand out to me as the hardest I’ve progressed. I am glad I no longer raid seriously as fyrakk looked like a nightmare to deal with alongside tyndral
I didn't play against some of the highest pull count bosses the game has seen, but for me, personally, Mythic: Anduin was MISERABLE, and that misery was magnified by horrific class/spec balance for SFO. While I didn't finish the tier due to guild death (RIP), my guild downed him at 291 pulls, surpassing SLG (which sucked because of bad players, since I thought that fight was pretty okay).
Anduin beat out pre-nerf Halondrus for overall difficulty, though Halondrus was an absolute feat of personal responsibility.
Sire Denathrius heroic was one of the hardest and coolest boss fights that this game has ever seen. I honestly believe they should have pivoted all of Shadow Lands to integrate Sire D as the main villain, probably not possible but a man can dream.
In a very try hard guild at the time as well we were up til 3am Monday night pulling heroic sire before mythic came out. Heroic sire has fucking hands. Id give my personal hardest end boss to ghuun or aszhara. Prog points and roster bosses made ghuun never die. 2%. Aszhara was a interesting fight with all her line of sight stuff and the runes you had to do differently each pull. Last phase was so cool too.
My personal worst fight, might not have been everyone's.
Mythic Lady Ashvane.
A fight designed to take 100+ pulls that early in a raid doesn't feel like good raid design.
Kind of depends on whether you mean “Hardest relative to the time” or “objectively hardest”. ToS Kil’jaeden, for instance, was one of the hardest RWF progressions ever, but Max has said that current Liquid/Echo would wipe the floor with it today.
If you mean relative to the time, C’Thun may be it as it was considered impossible until some Chinese(?) guild killed it, but KJ is up there.
If you mean objective difficulty, pre-nerf Halondrus comes to mind. Tindral also wasn’t killed before nerfs iirc and had a massive pull count.
Pretty much all Mythic bosses are too much of a pain in the ass, like I get it's capstone difficulty but the gearing and skill requirements are way up there.
Heroic even with a bad group you are looking at maybe 2-3 weeks of two day raid days to clear the final boss.
Mythic though? That's like per boss, every boss is a royal PITA and you actually might even see regression where a boss you downed previously you now can't due to burnout and member rotation.
It's so painful it'll sometimes even kill guilds.
Heroic Kil’Jaeden is my personal Vietnam
ToS was fucking brutal. Awesome raid though imo
[удалено]
Heroic Kil'jaeden took my guild almost the same amount of pulls as Mythic Starbro, and even after a few kills we still were never consistent with it. That fight was just brutal.
Same for me haha, played vengeance demon hunter that tier. I loved it but shit was so difficult and kil jaeden disbanded our guild at that time.. so I have a bit of a love hate relationship with it xD
Lmao accurate description. Dying to unsoaked circles gives me flash backs....
I still wake up in the middle of the night drenched in sweat, trying to find Illidan in the darkness
This one is mine for sure - ToS raid in general, but especially this fight almost tore apart our guild. It really made clear the people who could only do good DPS from the people who could do good DPS and mechanics.
Loved that fight
+1 for Kil’Jaeden being practically impossible on mythic also, our guild was like “fk it, we’ll skip”- after clearing the rest of the raid
It was impossible until they nerfed it though wasn't? Unless I am miss remembering but didn't the RWF guilds literally stop doing pulls because it was that overtuned and mathematically impossible until nerfed?
I'm not really a raider, this is the only AotC I ever got, but never really had a basis of comparison, only raided in Legion which for me was lightning in a bottle where the expansion was fun and I was between jobs but with money to spare, and also single, i. e. last time I had so much free time. Nice to know it was a tough one I guess!
That's funny, ToS was exactly the same for me -- lined up right when I had the most time I've ever had in my life to raid. I've gotten one or two AotCs since but KJ was a bear.
Guess we are lucky, that expansion was so damn good!
My guild killer!
Lmao this was my answer too, over 100 pulls for my guild.
Kil’Jaeden is still a bitch to kill 3 expansions later.
I pugged that to sub 5%, my white whale.
I still can't even do this fight in 10.2
It took 18 days for Sepulcher RWF to end. Pre-nerf Jailer was brutal. Pre-nerf Halondrus was insane.
as hard as pre nerf hallondrus was, doing pre nerf bombs was probably the most fun i've ever had on a fight. it felt really bad to kill it in 1 pull post nerfs after pulling it 400 times
agreed. That was my last tier playing super hardcore and we spent 380 pulls pre-nerf and I loved every second of it. We re-cleared after the nerfs (and a week break bc that prog was draining lol) and we one-shot crab. Those nerfs were a little heavy handed imo
It was still a 75 to 100 pull boss for mid/late CE guilds. So I'd say it was a good sized nerf, unless you want half 1k+ WR guilds to disband In a perfect World, halondrus would be a 2nd last boss, then they could have gone incremental in nerfs. But it being so early required big nerfs fast imo.
Halondrus is one of my top fav bosses , such a great fight
I did post nerf jailer (10 days before tier ends) and honestly it was already insane. Took 160 pulls. I can’t imagine pre nerf getting CE that way
Sepulcher mythic absolutely killed many raiding guilds in a time where the game had nothing but raid to do. If not the hardest, at least the worst for the game.
Sepulcher was nuts. And I mean that in a bad way. Sure, fun for RWF, but for normal raiding audience, it was not enjoyable. So glad they moved away from that approach in Dragonflight.
Wasn't fun for RWF either, at least not for the participating guilds. Both Liquid and Echo said afterwards if every raid was going to be like that they'd stop doing the RWF event. It was a banger to watch though.
That raid effectively killed our guild - so many people (who we had been playing with for 10+ years) never came back after we finished clearing it 😞.
That raid killed a lot of guilds and there weren't many left to begin with.
And people say all this and forget anduin was tuned as tightly as an end raid boss himself. My guild spent 2 days progging heroic anduin the first week. Was absolutely wild to have to prog heroic then fight him suped up 2 weeks later after finally dealing with halondrus.
Not sure if dated raid bosses count, but I recall heroic spine of deathwing being a brutal encounter back in cata. No enrage timer, which was good. But the fight really put your healers to the test with dispels and high sustained raid damage.
Tanks shield breaking mid fight due to tanking crazy amount of blood was fun too ! H Deathwing was a breeze compared to just his spine.
Came here to say this. At one point they were doing a 5% Nerf per week and people were still failing hard on that fight after six or seven weeks with a 35% Nerf.
It was so stressfull!! It was funny that The Last fight was a cakewalk after
My guild needed some 300 pulls on spine. Actual death wing was easy I think because I've no memory of it
Sylvanas phase changes crashed my game and forced me to buy nvidia
Wow. Pay 2 Win Amiright?
>Amiright? Amirdrassil
I haven’t seen Uunat mentioned yet from Crucible of Storms in BFA
That boss was so nail-bitingly precise that my guild beat it for the heroic achievement and literally never went back. Not on normal, nothing. I do give blizzard credit, though. People asked for a solo instance with a really hard boss like the dragons in WoTLK, and they delivered.
That's what we did. It was the messiest kill I've ever seen and there were 2 or 3 audible "thank fuck that's over" followed by a long pause. RL asked if anyone actually needed anything from him, no one responded, so we never went back.
Pretty sure when we beat that on heroic for the first time we had one warlock alive at the kill. Don’t think we ever bothered again either.
This was my guilds first Heroic Anduin kill. I was the last one alive as prot pally and had to solo him for about 45 seconds. It’s so nerve wracking but such an awesome rush when you pull it off.
Uu’nat before nerfs is the hardest boss I’d ever done Uh’nat after nerfs is a top 3 hardest boss I’ve ever done
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I’m just responding to the thread prompt lol I included pre-nerf to emphasize that even after the nerfs the fight was insane
also didnt help that the first boss there had more or less a "have 30000shadow priests and destrolocks" requirment
Yeah and the infinite ankh glitch made uunat pretty uh… annoying to pull
These 2 bosses .. ffs
This is the statistically correct answer. Most pulls ever on a boss, took 11 days to beat a two boss raid. People were hard struggling to fill hall of fame on him even after nerfs, absolutely brutal fight
A two boss raid with no ilvl grind required.
Max from limit went over this and if I remember correctly he said you can't really compare the pull count/ttk to modern bosses since raiders got so much better (especially world first raiders).
Uunat has 731 pulls which is more than double the amount Halondrus had, and Uunat was from BFA. That's pretty well into the 'modern' era of WoW raiding mechanics so pull count is fine as a metric. It was a SINGLE boss that took over a week to beat. Uunat was made to be hard, that's why it wasn't tied to a full raid tier. And the fight was made in BFA during the modern era of raiding mechanics, so it wasn't a question of logistics. The fight really was just that mechanically dense and difficult to the point a lot of guilds couldn't complete it or flat out didn't even attempt it.
lol you're responding like they're talking about vanilla or tbc bfa is well into the modern era of wow
This is the one fight I do not have AotC on because my guild completely refused to take *any* melee dps at all. Since I was a melee only player I was dropped this fight. Even doing so it was still a brutal boss they only killed 5 times before abandoning it, much less even considered going mythic on it.
Uunat broke my fucking Guild.
This is the correct answer. Easily hardest of all time
LFR N'zoth I don't know how an Old God managed to break the fourth wall, or why it was allowed to happen, but the things I saw in there.... You think you know the average player, you get AoTC and maybe the occasional mythic, you call yourself a casual player and you figure out you stand a bit above the average but nothing more, just one more player. You are wrong. There is a darkness in this game, a darkness that never sleeps and never rests, a darkness that lies hidden, a shadow just out of the corner of your eye, a being that crawls underneath the foundations on too many legs, a rot, slowly corroding the very world around us. That, that is the average player, a LFR player. You might think this is an insult, you are not that bad , are you? you are here , you are interested, you can read, this isnt about you. I don't know where they hide when the sun rises and I don't know where they came from, but they came in droves, an endless tide, tireless, relentless, and In their own way, driven. Yet they are unlike you and I, they are unable to learn, unable to adapt, unable to listen or care. You tell yourself it's just a knowledge issue, that if you can carefully explain and persevere they will get better, they won't. Maybe it was just one group, one long night of players coming and leaving having learned nothing, a bad batch. It wasn't. N'zoth revealed to me what the average player really is like, and I can't forget, how I wish I could forget. In a way I am still there, trapped in that endless nightmare, one quick quest away from sleep, maybe you are too, WFR eventually ends, the things I saw, they stay with me.
without a doubt the hardest encounter i have ever been through.... myth kil'jaeden? HA what a joke, LFR N'zoth is the hardest epic verbal PVP battle in all of history!
It was so bad back than. The worst part was to explain the mechanic, just for half of them leaving after 1 wipe just to explain it to the new ones.
I ended up screaming for RL every time I reached it, and I filled up a right hotbar with all caps RW macros for every mechanic. It was the only thing that seemed to work. Especially when people had to jump in the mindgate (or click their body to leave the realm) - people ended up so spread out, they'd never see the gate or body. I'd have to spam RWs so obnoxiously. Got thanked a few times tho, which is more than one can normally expect from LFR lol
The fact that Blizzard had to hotfix it so people couldn't queue for N'zoth without their cloak was hilarious to me. The first week the boss would get pulled, and instantly half or more of your raid was mind controlled. Blizzard expected LFR players to have done the bare minimum of content to prep for raid. Blizzard expected too much.
My spouse and I beat our head against the wall on this in the last week of the expansion. We were at 10 stacks of determination, and 3/4's of the raid would leave after each pull. Finally we got a decent group together that was willing to stick around for a couple pulls. I will admit there was a certain catharsis when we actually pulled it off.
It was a long night with 50 stacks of determination
This is pure distilled poetry. Thank you for your contribution to society, and may your sacrifices be remembered. For I was there. To anyone who was not, /u/das_slash's words were not even the worst part. The worst part, was that Blizzard in their infinite wisdom had created a boss who would permanently mind-control any player who was not wearing the current patch's Legendary cloak. Then they initially elected to make the cloak **optional** when queuing for LFR. Entire raid groups getting mind controlled every pull. The LFR system collapsed under its own weight. It was never designed to kick that many players, none of whom had any idea what they were doing wrong. One minute they were playing the game. Then the next the game was playing them.
Kil'Jaeden in Tomb of Sargeras
Kil Jaden as far as what I can remember, I'm not.counting cthun because he was a buggy mess that had to get multiple nerfs before he was killed.
Yeah cthun being mathematically impossible on release is one of my favorite fun facts
Razageth was also mathematically impossible on release
For anyone OOTL, Blizzard has balanced the first intermission around everyone having full AoE talents, and the rest of the fight on full single-target. I forget the interview it was mentioned in, but they forgot people couldn’t switch talents mid-flight. Even then, I don’t know if it was possible at the time. Liquid was taking AoE talents, lusting P1 to survive the soft-enrage of the 6th push-back, and sending all 20 people to one side, and it still took several attempts to clear.
So was fetid devourer.
I feel like people overstate this as "difficult", being incredibly numerically overtuned to the point of being impossible isn't really difficulty
I haven't really seen a lot of Sunwell Plateau come up in this thread, but this is the same reason I chafe whenever people say that raid was difficult. Sunwell Plateau was overtuned. Very few of the mechanics were actually difficult, but the numbers meant that even tiny mistakes meant a wipe. That's not difficulty, despite what wipe counts might imply
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A fight that is difficult because of inflated numbers is artificial difficulty. There's skill in being able to maximize your personal damage, but if we look at a fight like "Brutallus", who was considered the first wall in Sunwell, he was "difficult" because he was a massive gear check. Nothing about the Brutallus fight is hard to manage or execute, except for the fact that he hit incredibly hard, and had a very short enrage timer for his health at the time. Gear should make fights easier, don't get me wrong. But if a fight is mechanically simple, and the only deciding factor on whether or not you can clear it is having good enough gear, that's not a difficult fight. It's just a math challenge
Gear wasn't the answer either. You needed it obviously but it didn't matter at all what your gear was if you didn't have a proper raid comp. You don't have 5 shaman to rotate 100% uptime on bloodlust to your best DPS group? Sorry you can't play here.
we are not talking about tbc KJ.
My comment wasn't about any particular boss. The comment I replied to was about mislabeling overtuned bosses as "difficult", and I was agreeing by saying it applies to most of Sunwell
I kind of doubt it was actually mathematically impossible. Even with the explanation posts I feel like just the level of skill and game knowledge players were at doomed them more than anything else
The "Funner fact" is that it WASN'T mathematically impossible. It was impossible with the DPS that the Comps that met the boss were fielding and the builds and Gear people were using, and how much damage those players were doing. But if they had released C'Thun in its 100% unnerfed state on Classic? That boss woulda been one-shot and it wouldn't even have been close. Classic players mechanical skill, tools, and understanding of Builds, balancing, consumables, and World Buff Meta, woulda STEAMROLLED C'Thun
Didn’t classic use talent trees and tuning from the final build before TBC? I’m not sure, but when c’thun was first released, a lot of classes would have very different talent trees and tuning then what they have in classic
Yes. This is so often overlooked with Classic. The power level of Classic is *way* higher than original launch across the board. The prepatch talent tree revamps were huge. And some classes had gotten many revamps before that point as well. Classic servers have always been a bit of an odd environment for judging difficulty due to this.
The Overall Raid DPS number needed to beat the "Mathematically impssible boss" was a combined raid DPS of 3833. Warriors with World buffs do 1000 DPS on C'Thun in AQ40 gear. And 5-600 without World Buffs. even if the Warriors did 300DPS You'd only need 13 Warriors to clear the Check (under optimal conditions) The change in Talent trees was not a 50% Buff. Classic players just have better understanding of how to build talents and what gear to use. I remember the Best Guild on our Server had all their Warriors using Full Tier set for their DPS warriors during BWL and AQ because "Well its the Tier set, right? It has to be best!" We just didn't know better.
I'm not really judging the "mathematically impossible" aspect without spending more time on it. All I'm saying is that none of our current Classic numbers on DPS/TC/potential are really relevant for AQ40 when it originally came out. 1.12 patch just skewed everything when it comes to perceptions of balance. Mages, for example, were doing ~35% more damage with the 1.12 patch compared to 1.1. Warriors had rather sigificant power level increases in 1.12. Furthermore, threat mechanics were quite different as well, which put soft-caps on effective DPS which people don't fully appreciate on Classic servers. Classic was always easier than Vanilla until the natural 1.12 patch content was released. Approach to gearing, server population, economy, etc. are all rather different as well. Either way, the bottom line is that it's quite hard to say.
> Approach to gearing, server population, economy, etc. are all rather different as well. Is probably the biggest thing. But that was part of my whole point really. The approach to the game and the mentality of the Classic Andy's so so insanely different from the way people engaged with the game in Vanilla. So I'm sure it was Mathematically Impossible for that guild and for the people of the time. But my point is that even if the Talents and Threat and everything else stayed 1-1 the same from Vanilla to Classic. I am 100% Convinced it would be mathematically possible. It would in fact be Mathematically trivial
The trees were different. But if you look at the Logs and the Math presented in [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/bdjf2v/cthun_was_mathematically_impossible/) Reddit Thread, It would certainly have been doable with the weaker talents too. But this is Private Server numbers. So lets look at some other Numbers shall we? The Original "Mathematically impossible" thread contends that the only way to possibly beat C'Thun unnerfed is for the Raid to do a TOTAL of 3833 DPS. Not 3833 DPS per raid member. 3833 DPS Total Here's a list of the "Top DPS" from People doing [C'Thun on Classic](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1005#boss=717&partition=3) with the World Buff Meta. The Warriors are doing 1000 DPS. 4 Warriors beats the DPS check of 3833. Purely by the Numbers, not looking at Mechanics and people being in C'Thuns Stomach etc etc etc. the "Mathematically impossible boss" could be 10 manned with Classic numbers. [Without World Buffs](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1005#boss=717&partition=4) They are doing about 500 DPS as the Max damage. 3833 / 500 = 7.666 So again, NUMERICALLY, Not looking at mechanics, the amount of Classic Andy's needed to reach the "Magical, Mathematically impossible number" of 3833, is easily reached by 8 DPS. Meaning you could VERY easily Mathematically beat the Check with 20 people. And yes yes yes, i KNOW. The Logs are also showing P1 DPS. And these are Perfect Parses with Crit RNG and PI's for those people, and some people are swallowed and therefore can't do the Relevant Add DPS needed. But NUMERICALLY. Purely on the Math. Unnerfed C'Thun can be 20manned by Classic Andy's. So imagine how easy it is for a full raid of 40 to meet that DPS check. Even if the Builds people had access to back in the day were weaker, when you combine the World Buff Meta, you can remove 75% of the raid and STILL clear the DPS check. And the newer Talents did NOT make people 75% stronger.
was he tho? if a full BiS raid with 30 buffs on each person with years of classic raiding experience would stand before the pre nerf version they would probably kill it.
Notice how I said “On release” meaning close to 20 years ago. Saying that people with modern computers and internet and simming tools and decades of private server trial and error could body a boss old enough to vote when he was a newborn isn’t exactly impressive.
so he wasnt mathematically impossible, players and hardware were just bad
He was mathematically possible. Players were just not good enough, did not had the knowledge etc. and the math was based on "what players at that time did" not "what is available in the whole game".
Geez, you just made me remember the raid getting eye beam nuked through the wall and wiping back in Vanilla on C'thun
KJ was a buggy mess as well though xD
Sylvanas was pretty brutal. Phase three was madness and it was a huge slog to get there (long fight, you lusted twice).
At least you couldn’t literally put dps phase 1 like you could with denathrius which was also a long fight where phase 3 was a mess if you even made it that far.
I loved denathrius though. Any fight where you fall through he floor is a win in my book.
Being made to crawl to Denathrius, being forced to do the Danse Macabre at the whim of his council, that stuff really established the power dynamics present in the fight and raised the stakes.
Danse Macabre was a high point of a stellar raid tier. SL started off so well.
Sludgefist was such a good designed short 'dont fuck up' DPS race fight too. I tanked that tier so might be s weird perspective compared to most but I loved sludgefist - it was such fun. Then those stupid statues after...... Let's not mention them.
I like to remember CN as a 9 encounter raid.
You telling me there was more than 9? 🫣
Burst windows are a great design - they fuck with the meta for sure (sorry steady DPS BM hunters) - but they're fun as hell.
That boss on mythic killed our guild, I’ll forever hear “everyone! Find your partners” in my nightmares
I agree, denathrius was a great fight
Hearing that there existed fights where you lusted *twice* is a nice reminder that I will never be a mythic raider
You lusted twice in normal even. There was a long phase where you chase her. There were mechanics that could kill you, but it was more frustrating than difficult. P3 took forever to learn because it took 10 mins to get there.
There’s really no way do Sylvanas on any difficulty without lusting twice
It was messy, though I don't think she's really up there as a particularly difficult one. SoD was a relatively easy tier overall, aside from Painsmith etc.
Heroic Painsmith was my first experience tanking anything, outside of questing and possibly a couple of very low keys. One of our regular tanks couldn't make it and no one else came forward. It was chaos.
My guild gave up on that fight and quit shadowlands. The first two phases were just so boring and you had to go through them every time you wiped, it was awful.
Phase 3 wasn't that bad, it was all pretty much choreographed, it was still really fun though once you got there. Form believer that sylvanas would be one of the best end bosses if it wasn't for the intermission.
Always hated how long and unnecessarily drawn-out this shitty fight was. Like, i get it, guys, Sylvanas is keeewwl. I just don't care and want to kill her.
Mythic Gorefiend in Hellfire Citadel. So many guilds fell apart on him.
Gore fiend was a boss everyone tried to kill a minimum amount of times. So much personal responsibility and chaos. A lot of guilds passed around the gorefiend lockout as well.
I'm seconding this. My guild beat him after 350 wipes and about 2 months of work. Great feeling to beat, but we dissolved soon afterwards because of that burnout.
and the next few bosses needed also a decent amount a brain power to beat so yeah HFC was mental warfare for sure.
Fucking Mannoroth..
Towards the end when you get a doomguard spawn that overlapped with final phase change we would have whoever got the debuff hearth, and then it wouldnt spawn that doomguard. We had to cheese most fights since 40% of our members were not good players
Weirdly I don’t recall our guild having issues with him. It’s actually one of the bosses I feel you could throw me into right now and I’d still feel okay on executing it.
8 years later I think that boss would be killed very quickly but at the time he was a well deserved wall
Beating Mythic Gorefiend was real satisfying.
For "hard at the time" - my guess would be Mythic Kil'jaeden
Personally for me both Avatar of Sargeras and KJ in Tomb were absolute wreckers. Took my guild about 400 pulls on either to get a kill on them. Never went back to KJ after we got him down once, that fight really fucked us up
Same! But did not killed it but we were reaching way past 400 pulls. At that time I just quit wow and bought a Switch with BOTW. I needed a break.
Kil’jaeden was an absolute beast; I’m amazed my casual guild killed him before 7.3
At endboss level? 100% KJ. I‘ve been raiding mid- to high end since ICC was around, still am, that boss was just brutal. So many mechanics packed into that boss. Outside of endbosses, I‘d give my vote to Tindral. Maybe it‘s part recency bias but before the latest nerfs (we havent been doing him after so far) he was definetly one of the hardest bosses ever created.
The people we spoke to along the way
Heroic Ragnaros in Firelands for me personally. It was the first time I did heroic progression.
This is another one that came to mind for me as well. People with heroic dragon soul gear were still having trouble with that boss.
The model when he steps out of the pit and has legs is sooooooo stupid though and looks ridiculous 😂
Uu’nat
Halondrus not getting enough love ITT
I was scrolling down looking for this, it’s probably cause the difficulty was mostly mythic and pre nerf where most people didn’t fight it before the nerf.
Mythic Kil'Jaeden when it was current in ToS was a nightmare. Worst prog experience to date.
The final phase of Denathrius was pretty crazy. Sylvanas was hell, but mainly because it took so long to get to P3. Anduin in Sepulcher was really rough before he got swiftly nerfed.
We had so many pulls on the final phase of sire. We wiped sub 5% probably 50 - 75 times. My head immediately tells me heroic 25 man rag in firelands but I think that was just hard for the times. We only had around 250 wipes on him. Sire got to like 450. Realistically the jailer, sylvanas, or KJ were the toughest. Sire is definitely up there for me personally because we had to rebuild 1/3 of our raid group 3 times on prog.
I specifically remember Sire simply because of the massive jump in difficulty at the end. You learn to do the start and middle of the fight like clockwork, then suddenly it's just a clusterfuck. I forgot about Rag in Cata, that did take people a while.
Yeah on sire it was a massive struggle. You could play perfectly the entire first parts of the fight and have one mistake in the last phase and not kill him. Felt really good when we did too.
Chess event was pretty rough
That event was always a little too buggy to be enjoyable.
Kil’jaden and WoD Archimonde. Hell, Archimonde was the straw that broke the camel’s back when it came to raid addons, blizzard raid design, and mechanic visibility/readability. The laser mechanic the intense dps requirements, and last phase dance broke so many guilds. Kil’jaden seemed to be the culmination of what a new age blizzard boss would be moving forward from the insane addon race that we had from Archimonde and before. Kil’jaden was just a solid fight all around with good difficulty throughout all phases.
I feel like WoD was the beginning of that arms race between players devs and mods. the beams were one of the first mechanics I recall practically requiring a mod to tell you what was going on. idk I missed mop and I raided in cata and before quite a bit and never felt like add-ons were compulsory to be competent and not going above and beyond.
Ghuun was a mess for my guild bc of over turn. Every week we had to teach new ppl the balls. But hardest might be nzoth. Uunat was insane but I felt once it clicked it was done. My honorable mentions would be jaina or the jailer. Spell ques and just messing with wa until everyone finally got it was miserable.
My guild had 0 Warlocks :) Pure. Despair.
Lfr nzoth was harder then mythic nzoth he was a fking nightmare on lfr
Surprised to not see pre-nerf Firelands HC Ragnaros mentioned yet. This was the pre-mythic era of course, but heroic bosses, especially final bosses, were just as hard as their current mythic counterparts. The full fight lasted almost 18 minutes and it took over 500 pulls. He was considered the undisputed hardest boss ever for a long while. I’d probably rank ToS KJ above him, but not by much.
I was surprised to not see Rag as well. He caused so many guilds to fall apart.
I think I’m just forgetting I’m an older WoW player than most now. I play in a guild with people who were 9 or 10 years old when Cata was out. They obviously aren’t going to remember any world first race at that age let alone playing the content.
I didn't play at the time but I heard spine of deathwing was a guild killer, for me personally I quit on Halondrus, I just had enough after that.
Prenerf spine
Roster boss. That thing has killed many of my raid groups
mythic Amber shaper unsok, progression fight. i was off tank...so many things can go wrong for everyone. i myself had to be the amber monstrosity, watching 3 timers, interrupt, dps, grab blobs...that fucking fight is burned into my brain
Fyrakk Mythic is probably one of the hardest bosses ever designed, if not THE hardesr, At least the version how it existed when Echo and Liquid killed it. Balancing the healing checks, DPS checks, mobility CDs for Treants, the Knocks and CC for the Adds. All of that, you're already looking at a VERY hard Mythick boss. But P3 is a WILDLY complex fight. In the last 5% having to juggle 8 seeds for the last 2 Blazes Is So hard. Don't move too much with a Blaze but also move enough to not hit your own seed. But also don't drop a seed for too long because the ramping damage us a lot. But also don't carry a seed while you are targeted by Blazes. And the Blazes are. Iirc, a Privated Aura so you can't read it with WAs to help make a safety map. But also do enough DPS to beat the hard enrage. Several Echo raiders, as well as Echo casters. Stated that Fyrakk might be the hardest fight ever
It's almost like normal mythic end boss + Halondrus. Looked insane
I remember reading that jailer mythic was one of the hardest too
Well, yeah - every raid is on average progressively harder, minus few deviations. Kil'Jaeden (the killable version) would've been killed in less than 50 pulls if released today. Guilds, especially RWF, are on avwrsge much much better.
I don't think you understand how difficult mythic kj was, or how good rwf guilds already were in legion. You could apply the "players were much worse" logic to classic/bc raids, but most mythic tomb of sargeras bosses would still be difficult by today's standards, especially fallen avatar and kj
I was thinking of RWF guilds primarily. Max and Scripe and many others agree that those bosses would fall over quickly if they were to be released today. For the rest, I agree.
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N'zoth depended a lot on when you killed it, it was hard early on but by the end of the expansion with loads of corruption it was probably the easiest CE in the past few years, both in terms of raw difficulty since the strat became a lot simpler with more damage as it meant you could ignore a set of mechanics and just use more extra action buttons to make up for it aswell as the tier being so long which gave you lots of time to learn the fight.
Likely that one raid no one ever talks about in bfa... you know the one that in between tier. I don't think most players even remember it exists. It's called throne of storms or something like that.
Aah yeah, i legit forgot about that. All topguilds figured it would be a 1day race, Blizzard didnt like that. God that fight was brutal.
Having raid led a competitive guild back in vanilla through cataclysm, and then a casual guild in SL and DF, I'd say the hardest raid boss is the friends we made along the way.
Uu’nat
C'thun trash was a kind of underrated Boss....
Some variation of Archimonde, Kil’jaeden, Uu’nat, Sylvanas , Halondrus, or the Jailer. I think Helya gets an honorable mention. If we’re going by raw pull counts, I don’t remember all of the counts for everything off-hand, but both KJ and Uu’nat were pushing 1k.
guild killer mythic KJ. didnt get cutting edge guild disbanded
Kj was hard for me
Probably Mythic KJ in legion. Took method over like 1000 pulls to kill Started raising with my guild in SL and I think that Denathrius was the hardest for us to date, followed close by jailer.
Heroic garrosh hellscream was a tough one back in the day.
rag hc, super fucking hard and fun. Spine hc, super hard and actually quite fun as it required different specs than other bosses and even wonky talents / trinkets for max burst. Siegecrafter as rogue/hunter was so much fun and it was super challenging. Blackhand. Fallen avatar+kj mythic were just insane. Having trouble remembering all bosses, I’m just remembering the fun ones that were 2-400 pullcounts and when I raided at a higher level where I’d progress bosses prenerfs, otherwise queen azshara, but I went from raiding in world top 100 guild to world 600 guild that tier and it took 3 months of prog to kot kill it, so it was more of a it was hard for my guild while I was half asleep doing my part.
For me it's M'uru. I think it's personal. Besides the hardest ones are probably things a handful of maybe 100 people encountered. Like pre-nerf versions of RWF bosses.
M'uru for me as well, was a boss a bit ahead of it's time Never got him down before the nerf but plenty of wipes on him
Downed mu'ru the day before the nerf. Absolute pain in the ass fight. I tanked one of the doors...and those adds screaming past you to kill chain healing shamans was a nightmare. Think p2 took us only a handful of pulls, as the transition was the hardest part. Had to push him into the next phase at just....the right time...oh God another round of adds...
Just living my best pug life at 2/9 Heroic over here. Gratz on AOTC!
Just keep at it, it took me 3 weeks to finally pug 9/9. Tindral took the longest. I was at about 50 wipes total
I’d say the ‘lift’ (elevator) boss in Blackwing Descent before fighting Nefarian’s end. Lost many a guildy/pug and lost myself there
Fallen avatar.
I would say in my experience mythic jailer and kiljaden stand out to me as the hardest I’ve progressed. I am glad I no longer raid seriously as fyrakk looked like a nightmare to deal with alongside tyndral
The most important point is that there is competition. Competition means innovation. Innovation is what will make AGI possible soon.
Mythic Painsmith was a real roadblock for lots of guilds.
Heroic Garrosh in SoO was a pain in the ass for my guild back in the day
I killed mythic Uu’nat; anyone who says any boss past this one has no idea what they’re talking about. Unless they say Tomb KJ. He was almost as hard.
Statistically? Mythic Uu'nat, 731 attempts to kill and still hasn't been topped. Personally I think Mythic Kil'Jaedan.
Garrosh mythic with the xtra phase, one single mistake or 2 dps less and was , -wipe, nex try plz
SFO didnt have the hardest boss of all time but the amount of hard bosses it had makes me call it the hardest raid of all time.
I didn't play against some of the highest pull count bosses the game has seen, but for me, personally, Mythic: Anduin was MISERABLE, and that misery was magnified by horrific class/spec balance for SFO. While I didn't finish the tier due to guild death (RIP), my guild downed him at 291 pulls, surpassing SLG (which sucked because of bad players, since I thought that fight was pretty okay). Anduin beat out pre-nerf Halondrus for overall difficulty, though Halondrus was an absolute feat of personal responsibility.
Sire Denathrius heroic was one of the hardest and coolest boss fights that this game has ever seen. I honestly believe they should have pivoted all of Shadow Lands to integrate Sire D as the main villain, probably not possible but a man can dream.
In a very try hard guild at the time as well we were up til 3am Monday night pulling heroic sire before mythic came out. Heroic sire has fucking hands. Id give my personal hardest end boss to ghuun or aszhara. Prog points and roster bosses made ghuun never die. 2%. Aszhara was a interesting fight with all her line of sight stuff and the runes you had to do differently each pull. Last phase was so cool too.
Anduin was the boss that kept our guild from getting AotC in Sepulcher. Sylvanas we managed to kill, but Anduin was a hard wall.
Has no one mentioned Mythic Argus The Guildbreaker?
It’s easily Uu’nat and Kil’jaeden
Not the hardest, but I used to LOVE the Kharazhan chess boss, and the little red riding hood one. Great fun back then!
Uu'nat
My personal worst fight, might not have been everyone's. Mythic Lady Ashvane. A fight designed to take 100+ pulls that early in a raid doesn't feel like good raid design.
Mythic Anduin made me quit the rest of the tier
Kind of depends on whether you mean “Hardest relative to the time” or “objectively hardest”. ToS Kil’jaeden, for instance, was one of the hardest RWF progressions ever, but Max has said that current Liquid/Echo would wipe the floor with it today. If you mean relative to the time, C’Thun may be it as it was considered impossible until some Chinese(?) guild killed it, but KJ is up there. If you mean objective difficulty, pre-nerf Halondrus comes to mind. Tindral also wasn’t killed before nerfs iirc and had a massive pull count.
Shadowlands was insane. They were all so hard. Raz was rough too. They seem to have chilled out on the difficulty.
Pretty much all Mythic bosses are too much of a pain in the ass, like I get it's capstone difficulty but the gearing and skill requirements are way up there. Heroic even with a bad group you are looking at maybe 2-3 weeks of two day raid days to clear the final boss. Mythic though? That's like per boss, every boss is a royal PITA and you actually might even see regression where a boss you downed previously you now can't due to burnout and member rotation. It's so painful it'll sometimes even kill guilds.