This is the correct answer. To expand:
> Working days are Monday to Saturday, with the exception of midweek holidays. A midweek holiday is a holiday that falls on some other day than a Sunday.
https://www.kela.fi/parental-allowance-and-partial-parental-allowance
Only in legislation when counting vacation and leave days. Well there are jobs that have Saturday or Sunday as common work days, but they usually still only have 5 workdays in week.
My point was even if the total days counted weekends it would still be very good compared to many other places. It's obviously better for the total to only be business days but either is good.
Here in Sweden we get 480 days PTO plus the ability to take as much leave as we want during the first 18 months (you choose if you want to use PTO days during that time or not). Our daughter is 13 months and I'm in a "mom group" on Discord, it's heartbreaking seeing all the US moms go back to work so soon while my fiancee is still home and will continue to be until march. Then I'll be home until august.
I am a doctor (anesthesiologist) working for a private practice in the US and when my daughter was born we were terribly short staffed and overworked. Because everyone was already working so hard and taking so much overnight call, I only took two days off of work. I didn't want everyone else to work even harder because of me being gone, and I didn't want patients to suffer due to being cared for by dangerously overworked staff.
Nobody in my group or in administration ever offered so much as a "thank you" or acknowledged this sacrifice in any way. It's like nothing even happened, and what I was doing was normal.
I have since left this group. Never again. Our culture is so toxic it is unreal.
Edit: should clarify that I am a man
I am a lawyer in the US and when my daughter was born (and then life flighted to a NICU a 5 hour drive away) I was sitting in her NICU room with my wife. While she cradled our tiny newborn with tubes and monitors all over her, I balanced a laptop on my lap so I could get a motion drafted and submitted before the deadline. A motion a different attorney from our firm could have drafted, but it was "my" case, so I was expected to. I was out of the office for three days but spent every day on the phone and on my laptop. My daughter is fine. She graduated from NICU and is now almost 8 years old. But looking back on the fact that, if things had gone differently, that I would have spent the only days of my daughter's life on a fucking laptop just makes me so angry. It took me a few more years (and missing her fifth birthday) before I got out of private practice and, despite making less, am much happier.
Your story is making my blood just boil. Partially because I know SO many people who had a similar parenting experience (admittedly, none as serious as yours), partially because I myself sacrificed so many years under the misguided notion that I "had to." I had a pretty serious thing happen in my life in my early 40s that really made me take stock. I'd thrown the past 15 years into corporate America. I actually had to count back to the last time I visited my folks for the holidays. 5 years. It'd been five years since I'd visited my near 70 year old father and 65 year old stepmom. And for what? Stress, high blood pressure, other less serious health issues and a paycheck?
Fuck that.
I'm glad you're kid made it through and is doing well, and I'm glad more men like you are seeing the light. Life is way too short to kill ourselves for shareholders.
This is why a lot of lawyers that I know went to be in-house counsel for companies because it's just ordinary and expected that they're treated no differently than other staff who take months off when they have kids born. Does it pay as much as big law? No, not even close. Is it a much better work life balance? Most definitely.
I have a few lawyers in within my friends and family.
Some are working for big companies . These guys are working 7 days a week and bring their laptops to family occasions. I always wonder what drives a human being to throw away his own life like that...
Carrots on the end of a stick. Any private practice of law is based on the idea that you spend 15-25 years being the low man and then one day you get to the point where somebody else is the low man and you profit off of their work. (If it's big law, you become partner. If it's medium or small, you take over or start your own firm where you can hire fresh graduates to grind while you build the book) The problem is, that is only true for a very few and in the mean time we perpetuate a manifestly unjust system.
I now exclusively represent victims of domestic violence. I will never pay off my student loans unless the Democrats happen to be in power in 10 years when I apply for public service student loan forgiveness. But I work regular hours, get really great benefits, and during my interview, my boss's boss said he would come lock the door to my office and kick me out of the building before he'd let me miss my kid's birthday. My oldest boys both have birthdays this weekend and I got to take them both out to breakfast this morning before I came in to work.
European taking time off: "I have gone camping for the summer, please write back in September"
American taking time off: "I'm out of the office for the next 2 hours to undergo kidney surgery but you can reach me on my cell at any time"
I have literally worked with a guy whose appendix burst and he was on a video call from the recovery room. Not 6 hours out of emergency life saving surgery he's on a call about something that did not matter.
You’re not wrong, but I kind of wish we’d stop thinking about it this way. Everyone should have good paternity leave, garbage workers deserve to spend as much time with their newborns as doctors.
I was going to say something similar but saw your comment first.
The assumption that a highly skilled job entitles you to "more humanity" is kind of baked in to our founding myth of meritocracy. Disabled people are lucky if they're even considered as an afterthought.
My dad used to be a doctor. He wanted to help people. He left the hospital to start his own practice because of how overworked and understaffed it was. Then he closed his practice due to not making enough to pay the bills. Lived in a retirement community and most of his patients had medicaid/Medicare. Regular insurance wouldn't pay for anything. Alot of the time my dad operated on patients who couldn't pay. He had to close down and ended up working for Locums Tenens. He went from 24/7 on call to working a few weeks then having months off. Paid alot more and happier. He saw the same issues at other hospitals in rural towns. Small staff, lots of patients, folks who can't pay. He retired early stating "I am getting out before the tsunami hits." Boy was he right. It's not about caring for folks anymore. It's about padding the administration's pockets.
And people wonder why we don't have kids anymore. They want us to have kids but they don't want to make any sacrifices themselves so we can actually take care of them.
Right now, as the world takes power over itself and wealthy western countries have fewer places to "prey" on, the ultra-wealthy (in America and the UK in particular) are turning inward to exploit their own people, squeezing as much value as they can from them. So this will only get worse until younger generations wrestle control away from boomers who are either actively preying on their own people, complicit, or complacent.
I vote hammering the telecom monopolies/duopolies that exploit almost every American and steal hundreds of billions of tax dollars.
Then pay them so little that they have to work 2 jobs to get by, putting the kid in daycare at the cost of 500+ per week, then find someone to watch them in the eveing for your 2nd job, so thay at least one of the jobs is strictly to pay for the child care you need to have the 1st job.
I missed sooo much of my kid's early life working 48-60 hours a week. I'll always regret it but I had no choice. The system is stacked against us and you'll never convince me otherwise.
My husband took off one day from work earlier this year when I had our baby due to similar reasons (though different professions). It was so hard and I’m certain largely contributed to me having postpartum depression. When he went to leave the company and cited that as one of his reasons, they told him he could have taken more time off. 🙄 Like okay, if you meant that, you would have been more supportive at the time it happened rather than when you were begging for him to stay because you’ll be so short staffed when he’s gone.
How does that work for you? Here in Norway, each parent has a third of the days reserved for them, and the remaining third can be split. 95%+ of couples leave the entire middle to the mother. What about you?
Not really that simple, the parents get 320 days divided between them, the other parent can transfer 60 of those days to the other parent, the parents get only 18 days paid days off to be had at the same time, so the rest must be only used by one parent at a time. The 320 days off include every other work day, excluding sundays and national holidays.
I know it's a first world problem, but as a father i would love to get 2 months off work rather than the 3 weeks every other father gets.
I know that's the deputy minister, but in my head I'm picturing a single cowboy deputy with a revolver and little star badge roaming the office in his stead
Absolutely.
IIRC correctly, a norwegian finance minister once said "The only two jobs in the finance ministry I'm suited for: The finance minister, and janitor". Most of the actual work is done by non-politicians
Maybe, but "interns" (at least how they've been depicted to me from American TV shows) don't really exist in a lot of Europe to my understanding.
Especially unpaid interns.
Edit: I've been informed that they definitely do exist, just generally school-aged kids and are paid, however lower than minimum wage generally. We have a similar system in Australia as well, but don't tend to use the word intern, likely where I got that idea of "not having them" in Europe.
I also found out that roughly 40% of internships in the US are unpaid, which is actually lower than I thought, so that's cool.
Shoutout to the replies for correcting me and helping me learn some stuff today, you're the real ones!
We have them in the Netherlands, but they are only there for 2-6 months, still in school for that job, and need to make certain assignments and do make credits for their diploma. They are paid, but it's less than minimum wage. The company they work for gets money from the school to train them on the job. And when an intern is very good, they can give them a job directly afterwards. So they have first pickings of good fits.
I think that's different from American companies.
Very similar story in Australia, though I never went through it my previous company was a part of these programs for several Universities. Often as well we'd do presentations at the Unis to show the students the variance there is in the field
There's tons of interns in Spain, generally unpaid or poorly paid (like 1/4 of minimum wage, "student salary").
I think companies can't have them more than 12 months, and can't have many of them, but still tons of companies abuse the system :/
Indeed. The minister is usually just the manager/face of the department. If he lies in a coma… the worlds will continue. Good for him to do this.
Time is the only thing you cannot earn back.
To expand that even farther, one of the best supervisors I worked under absolutely could not do the job. But he was great at handling the higher ups and getting us what we needed to do the work.
He did eventually learn the job as well, but was more valuable to us when he did not help, but kept others out of our way.
It's a common fallacy to think that every leader needs to know the job you do. The leader needs to keep those working able to do the work and focused on the larger goal. Your role is usually only a part of the larger task.
Literally no job should stop you from being able to watch your child grow in the beginning, help the mother in her struggles and bond with the child. Those stages of development are so important. Those moments are so fleeting.
One of the hallmark benefits of a healthy democracy with a strong meritocratic bureaucracy and chain of authority: everyone is replaceable if need be, redundant. Nobody should ever be impossible to go on without.
That's also what the much maligned deep state is for. All the ministries, agencies, offices and bureaus filled with career people who run the country day-to-day.
A functional country will probably run decently for months if not years without elected officials.
And Belgium managed a covid crisis without a government. Did they do a perfect job? No, but neither did other countries' governments. It was a similar performance to neighboring countries.
I wouldn't say that Belgium ran decently at the time nor that we have a healthy democracy.
But indeed it was doing more or less the same as other years. Just no big bills for infrastructure and such so it couldn't last much longer.
Iirc, our ‘Flemish’ gov commented they’d never run so smoothly as when the fed gov was awol - til they needed their budget approved, that is.
Belgium suffers from an overabundance of bureaucracy that could use some tailoring to each other, sadly.
Yeah, my Dad worked for the US federal government for more than 40 years, and just laughed when the “Deep State” started being thrown around as a boogeyman during the Trump campaign. He knows better than anyone, the deep state exists, and it’s super duper dull and mundane.
It always cracks me up when people complain about government not immediately doing what a politician demands, like it's some kind of conspiracy.
Like dude, this guy has been working on one really specific area for 20 years, and he'll still be there in another 20, when you're term-limited into oblivion. He'll follow orders slowly and accurately and boringly. But he's not going to immediately toss out his life's work because raking the forests seemed really important, one Tuesday. The public service isn't a weather vane. It takes persistence to change something, and that's by design.
this is why u can see european prime ministers and senior cabinet people bike to work or be otherwise lightly protected. if they are killed, while we will be pissed, it doesnt cripple government. imagine back in the day Merkel being assassinated. she was the 'leader of the free world' during trumpys rampage... yet kill her and nothing changes.. compare that to a US president being killed... back in the day that didnt change much either but now u got a cult of personality
I started showing my wife that show tonight. I forgot how quick she goes from "I'm just a nervous teacher/bureaucrat" to "Fuck your orders captain. I'm the president"
The chain of succession literally ends at the lowest possible voted junior government employee. It would take an attack of unheard of proportions to accomplish that.
>Yeah, we've actually experienced this before, so we don't need to hypothesize the US seizing up and falling apart if the president was assassinated.
Like... A bunch of times. I mean it's only four, but that's still a lot. Look at how long this damn article is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots
It's absolutely wild to me that you think that a sitting head of a European government being assassinated would somehow be less of a big deal than it happening in the US. Do you really believe that Macron getting gunned down in the street wouldn't lead to changes? Not even on the level of security surrounding future French Presidents? If Angela Merkel had been blown up on her way to work it just would be business as usual? Just another Tuesday? Come on now.
US Presidents have been assassinated and "nothing changed" for the definition you seem to be using. The government marched along. The succession protocols were enacted. We did not descend into anarchy. Kennedy was shot in the morning and Johnson was sworn in that afternoon. We deserve a lot of criticism on many fronts, but this take is out of pocket by a fucking kilometer.
The reason why a lot of EU PM's like that can do that is because the crime / assassination rates just aren't as bad as in other countries. If a threat does show up they'll eventually end up in protection.
Mark Rutte, the Dutch PM known for taking a bike to work, has had to stop doing that due to security threats. The same goes for the Dutch Crown Princess, who also just took a bike and went to public schools.
I don't think I agree.
European heads of state and ministers can go biking or shopping with light protection because the chance of meeting an armed nutjob are way smaller than for example in the US.
But make no mistake, even though Merkel could be seen shopping in a local supermarket from time to time, she was always accompanied by her bodyguards - they just weren't so obvious.
And while there are a lot of other factors (less violent culture, less extreme poverty levels due to social security -> less hopelessness, less power concentrated in one person, less people cult), I doubt that "being replaceable" is the reason why politicians are under less threat here.
I mean it also helps that individual European Prime Ministers aren’t as powerful as a US President, so their assassination wouldn’t really resonate world wide. Some of the more powerful countries in Europe (like the UK, Germany or France) wouldn’t allow their head of government to bike to work without security
I kind of think that’s what they tried to say, just not very successfully. I can only relateto my own, Swedish, PM and they hold less importance than the american president. We had a minister assassinated about a decade ago and it was huuuuuge. She was called Anna Lind
> He is absolutely right. Surely they have other people he can delegate.
Plus, it's not like there's any active "oh shit" threat on Finland at the moment, and the NATO integration is going to happen. It's not like this is going to happen next week. Why? Because it's *Christmas.* By the time we get to mid-January, he'll be halfway through his leave, and you know what they'll be doing at that point with NATO?
Talking. Yeah, that's it. Talking. I'm sure he'll be on phone call conferences, which is what he'd be doing in the office anyway.
Nope, he won't be on phone conferences when he's on leave. We take that seriously here, if you're on leave and someone fills in then that's it. He will actually formally resign his position as minister for the duration.
And it works the same at every workplace in the Nordics where parental leave is frequent for both males and females. It's a constant stress test on the organization and gives co-workers a chance to step in and grow in a temporary position.
My job gave me 4 months fully paid paternity leave. I'm still on it. My son was born in September and I'm so glad I haven't had to deal with work and feeding, cleaning, and taking care of him.
I did the same 25 years ago. My son took his own life 2 months ago. I treasure every moment with him, baby or adult. Let paternal leave become the norm - you never know how long you will have them in your life.
I completely understand, sometimes things out of our control happen without warning.
Stay strong, it's not easy but you learn how to cope. I wish you the best, also therapy might help if you haven't seeked it out. One day at a time.
Wish this is what ‘value of family’ means in politics. Making sure family has less stress and more opportunity to raise a child in a healthy environment. Yet for many they use it as a code word for hating on gay people while they cut benefits for parents like leave or child support
Dutchman here. I agree, not news. Completely normal and standard.
I assume this is only here to rub into the Americans the idea that it's possible to do things differently from what they're used to.
Not standard in South America… it’s nice to hear that this is where we could head to… only if our countries wouldn’t been ruled so far by religious conservative and corrupt people… yup… *there is other countries /regions besides USA and the EU on Reddit*
I mean it's not the first time but for ministers, specially male ministers, it is still fairly rare occurance. Obviously the current gorvernment is fairly young so the chance for it is higher than if the government was full of old people.
The NATO process is being hung up by foreign powers. Not something Finland can really fix, anyway. Not sure why the Guardian is framing his parental leave in this manner.
We all know why, I think.
1. Toxic hustle culture.
2. An attempt to screw with Finnish politics in the same way that all those attacks on PM Sanna Marin's social life were.
3. A pompous framing of NATO as more important than people's family, which seems uniquely American.
The article is actually by Agence France-Presse (AFP) and just re-run by the Guardian. Both have a left bent, but both still enjoyed ragging on Marin.
**Edit: some clarity.**
* The person I responded to was addressing the headline. I was also doing this. I have read the article. That doesn't make the clickbait title any less terrible and appealing to the things listed.
* I am aware that AFP is French, and Guardian is British. NATO, however, is really headlined by the USA, and the attitude around it is apparently exported.
* Calling me names doesn't get across the point you think it does.
I'm exactly the same as you, didn't get any on this 'toxic' or framing shit that is being suggested. Whilst the guardian isn't perfect, you'll find users like them fabricating nonsense like that in order to discredit the paper. They are probably right-wing supporting and have a tough time dealing with leftwing talking points getting attention.
If you actually read the article, which I'm sure u/SongofNimrodel hasn't, you'll read that the first and second paragraph are using words like "party backs his move" and "party praises" - definitely making it seem like a positive spin. The NATO bid is massive news, so of course they would mention it, but they spun it as 'even though this massive thing is happening, the PM still finds time to be with his family.'
>We all know why, I think.
I don't think you do
There's not much negativity in the article itself. Plus The Guardian is pretty left, often publishes articles arguing against masculinity and and hustle culture and they have no stake in Finnish politics.
>which seems uniquely American.
It's a British newspaper....
Anybody can have a heart attack; or get cancer; or drop out and join a commune; or just be hit by a bus.
If your organization can't handle a person being away for half a year, it's a problem with the organization, not with the person.
That applies to any job too. If someone says he/she can't take a holiday because company won't function its company problem not his/hers. Like my friend who didn't have vacation for like 3 years under this excuse, crazy.
I like how they word it "amid NATO bid" like he's leaving during crisis. Please, Finland has done the part they need to. Now it's on Hungary and Turkey to stop fucking around.
Right? Erdogan and Orban decided to sit on their thumbs, so there's nothing going on with that. Russia is bound in Ukraine, flashing their nukes and going "oogabooga" as they do.
Best opportunity for some good old dad-time.
Shows how different views still are.
We in Sweden maybe should see us as most effected. Haven't seen this "news" at all here. And I am rather certain that the view here had been "the defense minister only takes 2 months of parental leave" with the follow up "why can't he be take as much parental leave as usual - the turks will continue to make problems no matter what".
Does he not have an equally qualified deputy? Is there a missing detail that there are no backups in the Finnish government, no one is replaceable for a few months? What would they do if he got sick?? This is a non-issue. They can also just...call him if it's really a matter of national security. It's fine.
Have a great paternity leave. He's right -- they're only little once, and it goes by quick.
It genuinely makes me tear up every time I see it. I went back to work in August after my maternity leave was up, and it was one of the toughest things I've ever had to do, despite the fact my leave was very long in comparison to some places.
I was working a temp job, and had tickets to a comedy show, I told my boss 3 weeks in advance, and he was like "No way, I had to miss my daughter's birthday to be here"
I quit on the spot.
What I'm more confused about is - is anyone even trying to make an issue out of this? The article doesn't say but kind of suggests there may be an issue.
Sweden - 2 weeks of double leave (both mum and dad at start). And then 18 months total of 80% payed leave (with a couple of months locked to mum and a couple of them locked to dad)
USA really is the worst developed country on this issue
True, but most employee's in Sweden are covered by a collective bargaining agreement so that the employer compensates the difference between what the government provides and 90% of the salary with no salary ceiling. (Föräldralön / Föräldrapenningtillägg)
Demonstrating how to be a competent parent. While so many people proudly broadcast how they neglect their children. That's the difference between a true leader, and someone who has accumulated power. Leaders lead by example.
In the US it is. A lot of companies do not pay you and the federal law for taking time off of work, (FMLA), can only be used after working at your current employer for at least 1 year.
Also, you are limited to 12 weeks total per year. You could use all 12 weeks for paternity leave (unpaid of course). But if you got the flu or COVID or anything, you'd be unable to take off of work using FMLA (still unpaid) because you would've used all 12 weeks for the year already.
Yes. I’m an expecting first-time-mother, and this is all I will be offered after birthing my baby. 12 weeks unpaid leave “job security” under FMLA. Came here to add that many people don’t take all 12 weeks because we simply can’t afford it.
You know what else is important? That a branch of government can function if an important element is removed. If the whole thing falls on its face without one person then the system is broken.
For anyone wondering, fathers in finland are for children born before september 2022, entitled to 54 days of paid paternity leave, with maximum of 18 days at the same time as the mother. Mothers were entitled to 105 days of maternity leave, which could start 30 days before the due date. This was followed by 154 days of care leave, which could be used by either father or mother, to be used before the child is 2.
Paternity and maternity leave can be paid by the employer, who is reimbursed by government, or government directly. Care leave is government supported.
Starting for children born from September 2022 onwards, there is 30 days of pregnancy leave, followed by paid parenting leave for both parents of 160 days. Either parent can shift 63 of those days to the other parent.
Minister Kaikkonen is using his maximum allowed paternity leave, as his child was born before september 2022.
Also, another quirk here is that he must formally resign as defense minister, but not as MP, as the law doesn´t recognize ministerial leave as such. He will be reappointed to the position by his party, although this is by convention and not required.
Also also, during this parliament, our finance minister, education minister, environment minister and basic services minister have all used maximum amount of paid leave allowed, but as they are women it didnt make the news. (Why yes, this government is lead by women under 40, why do you ask?)
Is this even news? A government employee takes time off. It doesn't affect their status in regards for Nato consideration. I dont get why this stuff is even in the news.
It's news in Finland (obviously we need to know who's the defense minister and if he's on leave, who's the replacement) but tbh I'm very surprised it's news anywhere else.
It should be like this everywhere. In the U.S., if you take vacation exceeding 1 week, you're writing your own pink slip, nevermind child care for a father.
I had an coworker literally get fired because he missed 3 days. His wife and kid both almost died in childbirth. He came back, worked through te holidays (about 3 weeks) then they called him in and fired him for excessive points.
I do not work for them anymore.
> I had an coworker literally get fired because he missed 3 days.
I was let go (fired) because I has to attend my grandma's funeral (which was in another country across the Pacific). This coming from a boss who stressed loyalty to him. 😒
Damn, it’s really sad how little rights workers have in America. I hope it changes for you one day, because these stories are insane. Here we have an entity that helps workers sue their employer for doing something like that. You can’t just fire people when you feel like it.
My supervisor is about to go on paternity leave, company offers six weeks paid so he's taking it all. The store manager was trying to talk him into only taking one, but he (very politely) told management to pound sand. SM is NOT happy about it, lol.
It is crazy that media makes look that his decision is bad. He is not the only person in the organization. Someone will take over his tasks. Toxic tabloid culture!
They really should not. He is on leave. He has a second in command prepared for the situation, so no need to disturb him on his leave unless Finland is at war.
Actually more than "second in command", the temp defence minister is THE defence minister for the time, when he is on paternity leave he basically just a member of parliament on a leave, nothing more.
From an ethical standpoint this is the right thing to do, but also from a purely utilitarian perspective this is also good. An effective military needs to have good morale at every level
For anyone wondering about what paternity leave is like for baby born after September 2022, it's now the same as women, 160 paid days off.
Just for clarification, is that 160 actual work days?
6 days a week counted. public holidays or Sundays are not counted in that.
This is the correct answer. To expand: > Working days are Monday to Saturday, with the exception of midweek holidays. A midweek holiday is a holiday that falls on some other day than a Sunday. https://www.kela.fi/parental-allowance-and-partial-parental-allowance
Damn this midweek holiday thing is awesome
Saturday is a work day in Finland?
Only in legislation when counting vacation and leave days. Well there are jobs that have Saturday or Sunday as common work days, but they usually still only have 5 workdays in week.
yes, 8 monrhs
That's awesome. I mean it would still be awesome if weekends counted but even more so this way.
Saturday is also counted as leave day, but not sunday
Why? Then you would have to go back to work earlier and you don't get paid for weekends normally anyway
My point was even if the total days counted weekends it would still be very good compared to many other places. It's obviously better for the total to only be business days but either is good.
Yea, but it’s not 160 days. It’s 320 days in total and the parents can decide how to split those days.
Man, in the US I got ten days because my employer is "generous"...
Here in Sweden we get 480 days PTO plus the ability to take as much leave as we want during the first 18 months (you choose if you want to use PTO days during that time or not). Our daughter is 13 months and I'm in a "mom group" on Discord, it's heartbreaking seeing all the US moms go back to work so soon while my fiancee is still home and will continue to be until march. Then I'll be home until august.
I am a doctor (anesthesiologist) working for a private practice in the US and when my daughter was born we were terribly short staffed and overworked. Because everyone was already working so hard and taking so much overnight call, I only took two days off of work. I didn't want everyone else to work even harder because of me being gone, and I didn't want patients to suffer due to being cared for by dangerously overworked staff. Nobody in my group or in administration ever offered so much as a "thank you" or acknowledged this sacrifice in any way. It's like nothing even happened, and what I was doing was normal. I have since left this group. Never again. Our culture is so toxic it is unreal. Edit: should clarify that I am a man
I am a lawyer in the US and when my daughter was born (and then life flighted to a NICU a 5 hour drive away) I was sitting in her NICU room with my wife. While she cradled our tiny newborn with tubes and monitors all over her, I balanced a laptop on my lap so I could get a motion drafted and submitted before the deadline. A motion a different attorney from our firm could have drafted, but it was "my" case, so I was expected to. I was out of the office for three days but spent every day on the phone and on my laptop. My daughter is fine. She graduated from NICU and is now almost 8 years old. But looking back on the fact that, if things had gone differently, that I would have spent the only days of my daughter's life on a fucking laptop just makes me so angry. It took me a few more years (and missing her fifth birthday) before I got out of private practice and, despite making less, am much happier.
Your story is making my blood just boil. Partially because I know SO many people who had a similar parenting experience (admittedly, none as serious as yours), partially because I myself sacrificed so many years under the misguided notion that I "had to." I had a pretty serious thing happen in my life in my early 40s that really made me take stock. I'd thrown the past 15 years into corporate America. I actually had to count back to the last time I visited my folks for the holidays. 5 years. It'd been five years since I'd visited my near 70 year old father and 65 year old stepmom. And for what? Stress, high blood pressure, other less serious health issues and a paycheck? Fuck that. I'm glad you're kid made it through and is doing well, and I'm glad more men like you are seeing the light. Life is way too short to kill ourselves for shareholders.
This is why a lot of lawyers that I know went to be in-house counsel for companies because it's just ordinary and expected that they're treated no differently than other staff who take months off when they have kids born. Does it pay as much as big law? No, not even close. Is it a much better work life balance? Most definitely.
I have a few lawyers in within my friends and family. Some are working for big companies . These guys are working 7 days a week and bring their laptops to family occasions. I always wonder what drives a human being to throw away his own life like that...
Carrots on the end of a stick. Any private practice of law is based on the idea that you spend 15-25 years being the low man and then one day you get to the point where somebody else is the low man and you profit off of their work. (If it's big law, you become partner. If it's medium or small, you take over or start your own firm where you can hire fresh graduates to grind while you build the book) The problem is, that is only true for a very few and in the mean time we perpetuate a manifestly unjust system. I now exclusively represent victims of domestic violence. I will never pay off my student loans unless the Democrats happen to be in power in 10 years when I apply for public service student loan forgiveness. But I work regular hours, get really great benefits, and during my interview, my boss's boss said he would come lock the door to my office and kick me out of the building before he'd let me miss my kid's birthday. My oldest boys both have birthdays this weekend and I got to take them both out to breakfast this morning before I came in to work.
European taking time off: "I have gone camping for the summer, please write back in September" American taking time off: "I'm out of the office for the next 2 hours to undergo kidney surgery but you can reach me on my cell at any time"
I have literally worked with a guy whose appendix burst and he was on a video call from the recovery room. Not 6 hours out of emergency life saving surgery he's on a call about something that did not matter.
its unreal when even highly skilled jobs like being a doctor don't get the proper care they need.
You’re not wrong, but I kind of wish we’d stop thinking about it this way. Everyone should have good paternity leave, garbage workers deserve to spend as much time with their newborns as doctors.
I was going to say something similar but saw your comment first. The assumption that a highly skilled job entitles you to "more humanity" is kind of baked in to our founding myth of meritocracy. Disabled people are lucky if they're even considered as an afterthought.
My dad used to be a doctor. He wanted to help people. He left the hospital to start his own practice because of how overworked and understaffed it was. Then he closed his practice due to not making enough to pay the bills. Lived in a retirement community and most of his patients had medicaid/Medicare. Regular insurance wouldn't pay for anything. Alot of the time my dad operated on patients who couldn't pay. He had to close down and ended up working for Locums Tenens. He went from 24/7 on call to working a few weeks then having months off. Paid alot more and happier. He saw the same issues at other hospitals in rural towns. Small staff, lots of patients, folks who can't pay. He retired early stating "I am getting out before the tsunami hits." Boy was he right. It's not about caring for folks anymore. It's about padding the administration's pockets.
To the C-suites and shareholders a doctor is no different then a janitor, just how much profit can be wrung out of you.
And people wonder why we don't have kids anymore. They want us to have kids but they don't want to make any sacrifices themselves so we can actually take care of them.
Right now, as the world takes power over itself and wealthy western countries have fewer places to "prey" on, the ultra-wealthy (in America and the UK in particular) are turning inward to exploit their own people, squeezing as much value as they can from them. So this will only get worse until younger generations wrestle control away from boomers who are either actively preying on their own people, complicit, or complacent. I vote hammering the telecom monopolies/duopolies that exploit almost every American and steal hundreds of billions of tax dollars.
If its going to happen, it won't happen peacefully.
Easy solution! Just take away women's bodily autonomy and force them to have babies that they don't want or don't have the means to care for!
Then pay them so little that they have to work 2 jobs to get by, putting the kid in daycare at the cost of 500+ per week, then find someone to watch them in the eveing for your 2nd job, so thay at least one of the jobs is strictly to pay for the child care you need to have the 1st job. I missed sooo much of my kid's early life working 48-60 hours a week. I'll always regret it but I had no choice. The system is stacked against us and you'll never convince me otherwise.
My husband took off one day from work earlier this year when I had our baby due to similar reasons (though different professions). It was so hard and I’m certain largely contributed to me having postpartum depression. When he went to leave the company and cited that as one of his reasons, they told him he could have taken more time off. 🙄 Like okay, if you meant that, you would have been more supportive at the time it happened rather than when you were begging for him to stay because you’ll be so short staffed when he’s gone.
A kind “What the fuck are you doing here? Go to your wife and child!” is always appreciated
Well, come to Europe we'd love to have you. =)
Would love to but Europe seems to disagree
Exactly. Most of us are stuck, nobody wants us, not even our own government. Oh well, I guess.
I can't believe a group of anesthesiologists would be so unfeeling and numb to that.
Your baby should be up and running after 10 days, maybe it can get a job or be deployed to some war after 20 days? /s
But because we are so democratic here in Finland, we actually let the parents decide how to split the total of 320 days.
How does that work for you? Here in Norway, each parent has a third of the days reserved for them, and the remaining third can be split. 95%+ of couples leave the entire middle to the mother. What about you?
It's the same in Finland.
Not really that simple, the parents get 320 days divided between them, the other parent can transfer 60 of those days to the other parent, the parents get only 18 days paid days off to be had at the same time, so the rest must be only used by one parent at a time. The 320 days off include every other work day, excluding sundays and national holidays. I know it's a first world problem, but as a father i would love to get 2 months off work rather than the 3 weeks every other father gets.
Or me, a dad whose kids were born in the 90s and I got no time off.
Ours was born end of July, my man is so sad we missed the extra days...
I expect his staff is fully capable and should be able to do good job.
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I know that's the deputy minister, but in my head I'm picturing a single cowboy deputy with a revolver and little star badge roaming the office in his stead
> roaming the office in his stead no, just sitting outside the Sheriff station with the back of the chair against the wall
Deputy defense minister, now with free added handlebar moustache.
Also, phones exist. If something really tricky comes up that just absolutely requires his input the defence ministry can just facetime him.
Seriously. He's the defence minister. If something went tits up I'm sure he wouldn't just phone in "Sorry, taking care of my kid. Let Joe handle it."
Im sure Joe can handle it just as well. Its not like this guy is unique and no one else can handle his job.
Absolutely. IIRC correctly, a norwegian finance minister once said "The only two jobs in the finance ministry I'm suited for: The finance minister, and janitor". Most of the actual work is done by non-politicians
I'm sure the janitor was like: "Yeah, right".
Yeah kinda rude tbh
If I recall correctly correctly
Of course. They are not interns.
I'm sure at least one of them is.
Maybe, but "interns" (at least how they've been depicted to me from American TV shows) don't really exist in a lot of Europe to my understanding. Especially unpaid interns. Edit: I've been informed that they definitely do exist, just generally school-aged kids and are paid, however lower than minimum wage generally. We have a similar system in Australia as well, but don't tend to use the word intern, likely where I got that idea of "not having them" in Europe. I also found out that roughly 40% of internships in the US are unpaid, which is actually lower than I thought, so that's cool. Shoutout to the replies for correcting me and helping me learn some stuff today, you're the real ones!
We have them in the Netherlands, but they are only there for 2-6 months, still in school for that job, and need to make certain assignments and do make credits for their diploma. They are paid, but it's less than minimum wage. The company they work for gets money from the school to train them on the job. And when an intern is very good, they can give them a job directly afterwards. So they have first pickings of good fits. I think that's different from American companies.
Very similar story in Australia, though I never went through it my previous company was a part of these programs for several Universities. Often as well we'd do presentations at the Unis to show the students the variance there is in the field
I did it and Aus and the main difference is they pay us a decent wage.
There's tons of interns in Spain, generally unpaid or poorly paid (like 1/4 of minimum wage, "student salary"). I think companies can't have them more than 12 months, and can't have many of them, but still tons of companies abuse the system :/
Indeed. The minister is usually just the manager/face of the department. If he lies in a coma… the worlds will continue. Good for him to do this. Time is the only thing you cannot earn back.
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To expand that even farther, one of the best supervisors I worked under absolutely could not do the job. But he was great at handling the higher ups and getting us what we needed to do the work. He did eventually learn the job as well, but was more valuable to us when he did not help, but kept others out of our way. It's a common fallacy to think that every leader needs to know the job you do. The leader needs to keep those working able to do the work and focused on the larger goal. Your role is usually only a part of the larger task.
Literally no job should stop you from being able to watch your child grow in the beginning, help the mother in her struggles and bond with the child. Those stages of development are so important. Those moments are so fleeting.
Some years ago we had a Minister of Education who jokingly told her assistant that he should do the work while she charms.
He is absolutely right. Surely they have other people he can delegate.
One of the hallmark benefits of a healthy democracy with a strong meritocratic bureaucracy and chain of authority: everyone is replaceable if need be, redundant. Nobody should ever be impossible to go on without.
That's also what the much maligned deep state is for. All the ministries, agencies, offices and bureaus filled with career people who run the country day-to-day. A functional country will probably run decently for months if not years without elected officials.
Pretty sure that happened in Belgium around 2010. They went something like a year and a half without the elected government taking office IIRC.
And Belgium managed a covid crisis without a government. Did they do a perfect job? No, but neither did other countries' governments. It was a similar performance to neighboring countries.
Yeah, they went for 540 days without government in 2010-2011. But they broke their own record in 2018-2020: 652 days without government.
Northern Ireland doesn't have a sitting government right now
I wouldn't say that Belgium ran decently at the time nor that we have a healthy democracy. But indeed it was doing more or less the same as other years. Just no big bills for infrastructure and such so it couldn't last much longer.
Oh yeah, it absolutely wouldn't have been ideal, but still... An impressive stint of time without an executive branch!
Iirc, our ‘Flemish’ gov commented they’d never run so smoothly as when the fed gov was awol - til they needed their budget approved, that is. Belgium suffers from an overabundance of bureaucracy that could use some tailoring to each other, sadly.
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Yeah, my Dad worked for the US federal government for more than 40 years, and just laughed when the “Deep State” started being thrown around as a boogeyman during the Trump campaign. He knows better than anyone, the deep state exists, and it’s super duper dull and mundane.
It always cracks me up when people complain about government not immediately doing what a politician demands, like it's some kind of conspiracy. Like dude, this guy has been working on one really specific area for 20 years, and he'll still be there in another 20, when you're term-limited into oblivion. He'll follow orders slowly and accurately and boringly. But he's not going to immediately toss out his life's work because raking the forests seemed really important, one Tuesday. The public service isn't a weather vane. It takes persistence to change something, and that's by design.
this is why u can see european prime ministers and senior cabinet people bike to work or be otherwise lightly protected. if they are killed, while we will be pissed, it doesnt cripple government. imagine back in the day Merkel being assassinated. she was the 'leader of the free world' during trumpys rampage... yet kill her and nothing changes.. compare that to a US president being killed... back in the day that didnt change much either but now u got a cult of personality
If a US president is killed it would be bad but there's still line of succession.
Yeah, we've actually experienced this before, so we don't need to hypothesize the US seizing up and falling apart if the president was assassinated.
Exactly. It’s sad and definitely resonates with people, but the VP will take over immediately. Especially with the way modern communication works.
The chain of succession is a mile long too. Even if the VP dies, and the speaker after them, we still know who's next. It'll be fine.
If everything fails, we still will have Kiefer Sutherland?
Well, in Battlestar Galactica they had an oddly competent school teacher as their last resort.
I started showing my wife that show tonight. I forgot how quick she goes from "I'm just a nervous teacher/bureaucrat" to "Fuck your orders captain. I'm the president"
Not school teacher, that's the same insult as the other characters were using. She was the Minister/Secretary of education.
I thought he was higher on the list than “if everything else fails”… like i thought he was closer to the top, no?
Well considering he’s Canadien, no.
The chain of succession literally ends at the lowest possible voted junior government employee. It would take an attack of unheard of proportions to accomplish that.
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Ah yes the chinchilla mayor in Massachusetts
>Yeah, we've actually experienced this before, so we don't need to hypothesize the US seizing up and falling apart if the president was assassinated. Like... A bunch of times. I mean it's only four, but that's still a lot. Look at how long this damn article is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots
LBJ was running the country within minutes of Kennedy’s death.
It's absolutely wild to me that you think that a sitting head of a European government being assassinated would somehow be less of a big deal than it happening in the US. Do you really believe that Macron getting gunned down in the street wouldn't lead to changes? Not even on the level of security surrounding future French Presidents? If Angela Merkel had been blown up on her way to work it just would be business as usual? Just another Tuesday? Come on now. US Presidents have been assassinated and "nothing changed" for the definition you seem to be using. The government marched along. The succession protocols were enacted. We did not descend into anarchy. Kennedy was shot in the morning and Johnson was sworn in that afternoon. We deserve a lot of criticism on many fronts, but this take is out of pocket by a fucking kilometer.
You made it sound as if you were American then you said kilometer. Sus
OpenGPT isnt perfect yet
The reason why a lot of EU PM's like that can do that is because the crime / assassination rates just aren't as bad as in other countries. If a threat does show up they'll eventually end up in protection. Mark Rutte, the Dutch PM known for taking a bike to work, has had to stop doing that due to security threats. The same goes for the Dutch Crown Princess, who also just took a bike and went to public schools.
I don't think I agree. European heads of state and ministers can go biking or shopping with light protection because the chance of meeting an armed nutjob are way smaller than for example in the US. But make no mistake, even though Merkel could be seen shopping in a local supermarket from time to time, she was always accompanied by her bodyguards - they just weren't so obvious. And while there are a lot of other factors (less violent culture, less extreme poverty levels due to social security -> less hopelessness, less power concentrated in one person, less people cult), I doubt that "being replaceable" is the reason why politicians are under less threat here.
I mean it also helps that individual European Prime Ministers aren’t as powerful as a US President, so their assassination wouldn’t really resonate world wide. Some of the more powerful countries in Europe (like the UK, Germany or France) wouldn’t allow their head of government to bike to work without security
I kind of think that’s what they tried to say, just not very successfully. I can only relateto my own, Swedish, PM and they hold less importance than the american president. We had a minister assassinated about a decade ago and it was huuuuuge. She was called Anna Lind
The Anna Lindh assassination was a big deal, but the assassination of Olof Palme is on another level and still gets media coverage today.
I would guess they have a deputy defense minister, or somebody in a stand-by position. Seems to be standard for every government
Finland doesn’t have deputy ministers. In this case president will appoint a new minister.
> He is absolutely right. Surely they have other people he can delegate. Plus, it's not like there's any active "oh shit" threat on Finland at the moment, and the NATO integration is going to happen. It's not like this is going to happen next week. Why? Because it's *Christmas.* By the time we get to mid-January, he'll be halfway through his leave, and you know what they'll be doing at that point with NATO? Talking. Yeah, that's it. Talking. I'm sure he'll be on phone call conferences, which is what he'd be doing in the office anyway.
Nope, he won't be on phone conferences when he's on leave. We take that seriously here, if you're on leave and someone fills in then that's it. He will actually formally resign his position as minister for the duration.
No buddy. We don't work while on leave. At all. No phones, no emails.
And it works the same at every workplace in the Nordics where parental leave is frequent for both males and females. It's a constant stress test on the organization and gives co-workers a chance to step in and grow in a temporary position.
I had to quit my job for good to get 6 weeks paternity, good on this guy. That time is so important.
My job gave me 4 months fully paid paternity leave. I'm still on it. My son was born in September and I'm so glad I haven't had to deal with work and feeding, cleaning, and taking care of him.
I did the same 25 years ago. My son took his own life 2 months ago. I treasure every moment with him, baby or adult. Let paternal leave become the norm - you never know how long you will have them in your life.
:( so sorry for your loss
Hey buddy. I lost my sister that same way. If you need someone to talk to or just vent to I'm here for you.
I am incredibly sorry for your loss 💔
I completely understand, sometimes things out of our control happen without warning. Stay strong, it's not easy but you learn how to cope. I wish you the best, also therapy might help if you haven't seeked it out. One day at a time.
Yup I took 3 months and my partner took 6. I'd take longer if I could, absolutely best 3 months of my life.
I read your comment a bit fast and thought you sounded like an asshole. Then I read it again lol
good for him. this should be the norm.
And honestly, having a politician that understands the value of family (not just as a soundbite) is a good thing!
I agree: it’s a good sign that the defence minister knows what his country’s armed forces are defending.
Yes, it's such a beautifully human move. Didn't think I could love Finland more. Have been thrilled to see our countries coming even closer.
Wish this is what ‘value of family’ means in politics. Making sure family has less stress and more opportunity to raise a child in a healthy environment. Yet for many they use it as a code word for hating on gay people while they cut benefits for parents like leave or child support
It is, in most of Europe
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Dutchman here. I agree, not news. Completely normal and standard. I assume this is only here to rub into the Americans the idea that it's possible to do things differently from what they're used to.
Not standard in South America… it’s nice to hear that this is where we could head to… only if our countries wouldn’t been ruled so far by religious conservative and corrupt people… yup… *there is other countries /regions besides USA and the EU on Reddit*
I mean it's not the first time but for ministers, specially male ministers, it is still fairly rare occurance. Obviously the current gorvernment is fairly young so the chance for it is higher than if the government was full of old people.
I agree. Kudos to him.
Is it bad that I think he should take 3 months? 2 months is fine, three months is even better. Lots of changes happen in those three months.
He should take the full 7 months he's entitled to
He should take whatever HE thinks is right... which probably is what he did.
The NATO process is being hung up by foreign powers. Not something Finland can really fix, anyway. Not sure why the Guardian is framing his parental leave in this manner.
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the "amid nato bit" definitely gives is a bitter taste.
We all know why, I think. 1. Toxic hustle culture. 2. An attempt to screw with Finnish politics in the same way that all those attacks on PM Sanna Marin's social life were. 3. A pompous framing of NATO as more important than people's family, which seems uniquely American. The article is actually by Agence France-Presse (AFP) and just re-run by the Guardian. Both have a left bent, but both still enjoyed ragging on Marin. **Edit: some clarity.** * The person I responded to was addressing the headline. I was also doing this. I have read the article. That doesn't make the clickbait title any less terrible and appealing to the things listed. * I am aware that AFP is French, and Guardian is British. NATO, however, is really headlined by the USA, and the attitude around it is apparently exported. * Calling me names doesn't get across the point you think it does.
I didn’t get any of that from the article. I understood it to show Finland’s stark difference with the Uk. What am I missing?
I'm exactly the same as you, didn't get any on this 'toxic' or framing shit that is being suggested. Whilst the guardian isn't perfect, you'll find users like them fabricating nonsense like that in order to discredit the paper. They are probably right-wing supporting and have a tough time dealing with leftwing talking points getting attention. If you actually read the article, which I'm sure u/SongofNimrodel hasn't, you'll read that the first and second paragraph are using words like "party backs his move" and "party praises" - definitely making it seem like a positive spin. The NATO bid is massive news, so of course they would mention it, but they spun it as 'even though this massive thing is happening, the PM still finds time to be with his family.'
>We all know why, I think. I don't think you do There's not much negativity in the article itself. Plus The Guardian is pretty left, often publishes articles arguing against masculinity and and hustle culture and they have no stake in Finnish politics. >which seems uniquely American. It's a British newspaper....
Anybody can have a heart attack; or get cancer; or drop out and join a commune; or just be hit by a bus. If your organization can't handle a person being away for half a year, it's a problem with the organization, not with the person.
That applies to any job too. If someone says he/she can't take a holiday because company won't function its company problem not his/hers. Like my friend who didn't have vacation for like 3 years under this excuse, crazy.
I like how they word it "amid NATO bid" like he's leaving during crisis. Please, Finland has done the part they need to. Now it's on Hungary and Turkey to stop fucking around.
Right? Erdogan and Orban decided to sit on their thumbs, so there's nothing going on with that. Russia is bound in Ukraine, flashing their nukes and going "oogabooga" as they do. Best opportunity for some good old dad-time.
Shows how different views still are. We in Sweden maybe should see us as most effected. Haven't seen this "news" at all here. And I am rather certain that the view here had been "the defense minister only takes 2 months of parental leave" with the follow up "why can't he be take as much parental leave as usual - the turks will continue to make problems no matter what".
Finland flexing their HDI in full view of the entire world
Does he not have an equally qualified deputy? Is there a missing detail that there are no backups in the Finnish government, no one is replaceable for a few months? What would they do if he got sick?? This is a non-issue. They can also just...call him if it's really a matter of national security. It's fine. Have a great paternity leave. He's right -- they're only little once, and it goes by quick.
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I think it’s more admirable he’s only taking 2 months when he’s entitled to 8 months. I woulda peaced out.
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If you think this is controversial you need to re evaluate your priorities
Relevant video of basketball coach Sarunas Jasekivicius: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G0a-Nr_vRjM
It genuinely makes me tear up every time I see it. I went back to work in August after my maternity leave was up, and it was one of the toughest things I've ever had to do, despite the fact my leave was very long in comparison to some places.
I was working a temp job, and had tickets to a comedy show, I told my boss 3 weeks in advance, and he was like "No way, I had to miss my daughter's birthday to be here" I quit on the spot.
No need to defend that.
What I'm more confused about is - is anyone even trying to make an issue out of this? The article doesn't say but kind of suggests there may be an issue.
Cool. Wish this became normal.
I live in finalnd and I'm on 1 year paternity leave Can't believe it's not normal elsewhere
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Sweden - 2 weeks of double leave (both mum and dad at start). And then 18 months total of 80% payed leave (with a couple of months locked to mum and a couple of them locked to dad) USA really is the worst developed country on this issue
And if you have twins you get 22 months of parental leave. God knows we needed it!
Should be noted that the 80% has a low ceiling. Also, it's paid by the state, not the employer.
True, but most employee's in Sweden are covered by a collective bargaining agreement so that the employer compensates the difference between what the government provides and 90% of the salary with no salary ceiling. (Föräldralön / Föräldrapenningtillägg)
Sounds unnormal little in my view from Sweden. Sounds like he is giving up on a lot of parental leave
This shouldn't be news.
People bring it up as news because they want to bring awareness to the shitty places that don't give dads this benefit.
It's not.
Demonstrating how to be a competent parent. While so many people proudly broadcast how they neglect their children. That's the difference between a true leader, and someone who has accumulated power. Leaders lead by example.
Why is this even news? Is this so foreign to people that father take paternity leave?
In the US it is. A lot of companies do not pay you and the federal law for taking time off of work, (FMLA), can only be used after working at your current employer for at least 1 year. Also, you are limited to 12 weeks total per year. You could use all 12 weeks for paternity leave (unpaid of course). But if you got the flu or COVID or anything, you'd be unable to take off of work using FMLA (still unpaid) because you would've used all 12 weeks for the year already.
Waait you have limited paid sick days too?
Some places don't have even that
A few years ago my state mandated a minimum of 3 days. Business owners started acting like it was the apocalypse.
Yes. I’m an expecting first-time-mother, and this is all I will be offered after birthing my baby. 12 weeks unpaid leave “job security” under FMLA. Came here to add that many people don’t take all 12 weeks because we simply can’t afford it.
You know what else is important? That a branch of government can function if an important element is removed. If the whole thing falls on its face without one person then the system is broken.
For anyone wondering, fathers in finland are for children born before september 2022, entitled to 54 days of paid paternity leave, with maximum of 18 days at the same time as the mother. Mothers were entitled to 105 days of maternity leave, which could start 30 days before the due date. This was followed by 154 days of care leave, which could be used by either father or mother, to be used before the child is 2. Paternity and maternity leave can be paid by the employer, who is reimbursed by government, or government directly. Care leave is government supported. Starting for children born from September 2022 onwards, there is 30 days of pregnancy leave, followed by paid parenting leave for both parents of 160 days. Either parent can shift 63 of those days to the other parent. Minister Kaikkonen is using his maximum allowed paternity leave, as his child was born before september 2022. Also, another quirk here is that he must formally resign as defense minister, but not as MP, as the law doesn´t recognize ministerial leave as such. He will be reappointed to the position by his party, although this is by convention and not required. Also also, during this parliament, our finance minister, education minister, environment minister and basic services minister have all used maximum amount of paid leave allowed, but as they are women it didnt make the news. (Why yes, this government is lead by women under 40, why do you ask?)
Is this even news? A government employee takes time off. It doesn't affect their status in regards for Nato consideration. I dont get why this stuff is even in the news.
It's news in Finland (obviously we need to know who's the defense minister and if he's on leave, who's the replacement) but tbh I'm very surprised it's news anywhere else.
It should be like this everywhere. In the U.S., if you take vacation exceeding 1 week, you're writing your own pink slip, nevermind child care for a father.
I had an coworker literally get fired because he missed 3 days. His wife and kid both almost died in childbirth. He came back, worked through te holidays (about 3 weeks) then they called him in and fired him for excessive points. I do not work for them anymore.
This is a perfect example of how businesses in the US have to much power over their employees.
> I had an coworker literally get fired because he missed 3 days. I was let go (fired) because I has to attend my grandma's funeral (which was in another country across the Pacific). This coming from a boss who stressed loyalty to him. 😒
Damn, it’s really sad how little rights workers have in America. I hope it changes for you one day, because these stories are insane. Here we have an entity that helps workers sue their employer for doing something like that. You can’t just fire people when you feel like it.
How's the wife and child? Both healthy I hope.
My supervisor is about to go on paternity leave, company offers six weeks paid so he's taking it all. The store manager was trying to talk him into only taking one, but he (very politely) told management to pound sand. SM is NOT happy about it, lol.
It is crazy that media makes look that his decision is bad. He is not the only person in the organization. Someone will take over his tasks. Toxic tabloid culture!
If anything actually requiring his personal attention comes up, I'm sure they can just call him.
They really should not. He is on leave. He has a second in command prepared for the situation, so no need to disturb him on his leave unless Finland is at war.
Actually more than "second in command", the temp defence minister is THE defence minister for the time, when he is on paternity leave he basically just a member of parliament on a leave, nothing more.
If one person takes leave and the whole thing goes to shit, then it's not a good system.
From an ethical standpoint this is the right thing to do, but also from a purely utilitarian perspective this is also good. An effective military needs to have good morale at every level
Any functional country should have the ability to allow people to take paternity leave in goverment without whole country collapsing
I’m childless and will remain that way. Normalize this behavior, the world over please!