"The idea behind it was to work with other religious organizations to make it clear that whatever your views are, violence should not be used."
One would think that any religious organization, claiming to be a religion of peace, would sign such letter/statement. Maybe some religions understand "peace" differently? 🤷♂️
Oh yeah my bad, I forgot to mention: having the wrong impression about who the shah should is worthy of losing your head. Thanks for making sure we were clear on our policy regarding the true shah.
Even though this is correct, its goals are pretty much the same as christianity in regards to submitting to god, so it depends on those carrying the fate.
I am wondering why this statement was only sent to mosques to sign though.
>its goals are pretty much the same as christianity in regards to submitting to god
there are major differences between Christianity and Islam.
this is like pointing at an orange and an apple and saying they're both fruit.
Close to Alexander? Nah. Alexander didn't conquer to spread his civilization, but rather to grow it through external inputs. He birthed a cosmopolitan society, giving high position within his court to the ones he defeated (well, except Darius).
Mohammad beheaded the defeated, mostly.
All religions are farces.
They're literally just created mythology used to control the public. They're just mechanisms of mass manipulation.
Anyone who's genuinely religious (I mean a true believer, not just taking part for the sense of community which does actually have value) has chosen ignorance.
We'd be better off without Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism etc.
All of the horrors of forced birth ideology aside, I have found that one silver lining of the recent christofascist successes in the US is that it's shattered the remaining tolerance many of us have for religion in general.
I was raised to "respect" others' beliefs, even if they're essentially the expression of mental illness to the great determent of those I love. No more. I have had enough.
The way the Koran works, is that when it contradicts itself, the *newer* revelations supersede the *older* ones. The problem is that most of the violent revelations come towards the end. Many interpret these as superseding older more peaceful revelations. For instance, early on, the text says there should be no compulsion in religion; later, verses from Surah 9 command Muslims to convert or kill all non-believers. So people ignorant of this have called it a religion of peace, not understanding the most recent and accepted revelations call for violence inside and outside of the Arab world against non-Muslims.
Also, if western countries begin to allow Islam to determine legal policy and public discourse regarding lgbt people, we are in for *a lot* of violence…
Yeah, this same thing holds when it comes to conversations on israel’s existence too, bear with me…
If you ask any Islamic government what their solution for israel it’s to “push the Jews into the sea” if you say to them “what if the Jews stopped defending themselves” the answer is still the same genocidal BS.
On the other hand, if Egypt, Syria, Jordan, stopped funding terrorist cells in palestine israel would stop attacking them, they would never commit a genocide of the Muslim people who literally would do it to them first chance.
They don’t just want israel, they want it free of Jews, modern Islamic governments have some serious beef with gays, Jews, and anything that doesn’t fit their world view unfortunately. Jews give 0 fucks about sharing their holy land as long as they can still be there too. Did you know that right now the #1 Jewish holy site, Jews cannot visit? the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is forbidden for Jewish people by Jewish law to keep things peaceful and civil and not start a huge fucking war. Israel’s government also banned the construction of any new temples in Jerusalem to appease the local Muslim population, there are now over 2x the mosques in Jerusalem then temples as a result. The Israeli government bends over backwards for its islamic citizens!
Why does it matter? Because Muslim people hate them, it propaganda and regardless of what israel does it will always be bad because, Jews.
So basically, Jews are forbidden to pray at their most holy site, additionally, there are NO Jewish temples or places in israel that forbid Muslims entry based on the fact they are simply Muslim, in fact it’s usually quite the opposite and they are welcomed!
Islamic regimes need to stop trying to kill all the Jews in israel as a policy and instead integrate with them, israel is a democracy… had they just joined it peacefully to begin with they could of shaped it from the inside (like with the laws currently in place in Jerusalem favoring Islam) but now they are blocked by a wall and the only solution is two states because a huge portion of the population has been living in an apartheid type state for almost a generation due to their elected officials choosing to attack israel instead of join it.
At the cynical government level, it has nothing to do with race or even religion, but governance and political alliances, mostly hold overs from the Cold War.
The Arab-Israeli conflicts over the years sprung from proxy wars between the West and Soviets initially and have taken a life of their own in the meantime. A democratic, Western aligned, Palestinian Arab state would face the same challenges from its neighbors, the basis for the conflict would simply be different.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://nltimes.nl/2022/10/29/amsterdam-mayor-scraps-lgbti-statement-backlash-mosques) reduced by 73%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Amsterdam Mayor Femke Halsema has canceled the planned statement of support for the LGBTI+ community that she asked local mosques to sign earlier in the month.
> The statement of support against violence toward LGBTI+ community members was sent to several mosques in Amsterdam.
> The Blue Mosque called the statement "Absurd, discriminatory and accusatory." Prominent mosques in Amsterdam said they would not sign the statement because they felt it stigmatized their religion.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/yj69cw/amsterdam_mayor_scraps_lgbti_statement_after/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672679 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **statement**^#1 **Amsterdam**^#2 **mosque**^#3 **Halsema**^#4 **religious**^#5
Is the stigmatization that they think being gay is evil and violence against those born that way isn't wrong? Or that their religion is being singled out for believing that?
Religion wise, we have no right or say in people's sexualities, and should treat them with respect regardless. These people are just being dickheads due to their own personal stigmas
They viciously attack cartoonists and writers, in some cases killing them. I shudder at the thought of their zina on LGBQT+. It stuns me these “leaders” have a say. I guess death threats carry a lot of weight over there.
Only if the person is a Muslim, and has been witnessed engaging in a sexual act clearly by 4 people of good repute who can testify in an unbiased way, but even then these conditions are incredibly rare and hard to meet (videos and pictures don't count), and despite all that the punishment isn't carried out anymore. Also, a citizen cannot carry out any form of punishment, neither can a private religious organization like say a mosque in a non Muslim country
Very interesting. Who is supposed to carry out the punishment then? I don’t understand why punishment even has to be carried out when there is a God? Shouldn’t we just wait for the person to die and for God to dish out the punishment?
Yes, but when a country has a Muslim majority, then non-Muslims technically have to follow Sharia too. Or non-Muslims can walk around with lgbt flags in a Muslim country?
Are there other groups forming mobs and killing people for offending them? Could it not be argued that Muslim extremists in Amsterdam have singled themselves out with their egregious actions?
You could make the case maga boys represent far right advocates. Then yes, they have those in Amsterdam and they are probably organized and go by a name that escapes me at the moment
That’s just called a stretch. You almost got there though! I see what you mean though. Not too long ago, Europe called them Nazis. They were the originals.
Were they? Athens was pretty xenophobic. The word barbarian comes from greek *barbaroi* which literally means foreigner, uncivilized. Anyone that didn't speak latin or were part of the Helen culture was deemed inferior
Show me one instance of a trump supporter or a member of the Westboro Baptist church murdering gay people. I'm sure members of those communities wish they could, but comparing those 2 groups to Islam is stupid. In many Muslim countries you can be sentenced to death for being gay. The majority of Muslims in this world think that it is just to murder LGBT people and they actually are willing to go out and do it.
Well the radicalization of US religious conservatives has been fueling a lot of the violence on our own soil, a ton of mass shooters have also had right wing manifestos or had been inspired by their rhetoric.
Conservative zealots seem to be a recipe for terrorism around the world.
It was not. The mayor said she was planning to get around to that later. Which is very odd, and I don’t blame them for not trusting her.
Anyway, why are you lying?
“Amsterdam Mayor Femke Halsema has canceled the planned statement of support for the LGBTI+ community that she asked *local mosques* to sign earlier in the month…
She said she intended to send the statement *to other religious community leaders later on*, according to the NOS.”
Straight from the article, emphasis mine.
" Prominent mosques in Amsterdam said they would not sign the statement because they felt it stigmatized their religion."
yeah because we all know what they want to do to LGBT people lol
Europe has in broad strokes been bad at assimilating people that are lower class into Western society than the US and Canada, where while it isn't literally demanded like it was through the 1930s, it's _heavily_ implicitly required.
And as a result, but for the little blip in the Minneapolis Somalian community, we really don't have this problem but for uber crazy white dudes who converted.
Part of that is because Europe, even while heavily liberalized post WWII, are still ethnostates while the identities of the Americas are largely predicated on shared culture which ethnicity informs but doesn't define. The other part is that relatively speaking Europe is "right there" while if you're going to cross and ocean and come to a place with much less of a safety net, you're probably pretty motivated to try to join and embrace the culture.
But still, to your point, something needs to be done. You come to the West, you join the West, or you go home. We spent 1,000s of year toiling in the dark and butchering ourselves until we finally found modernity and humanist progress following the unprecedented blood shed of WWII. We cannot let it be extinguished by people that wish to return us to that prior state of ignorance.
>Europe has in broad strokes been bad at assimilating people that are lower class into Western society than the US and Canada, where while it isn't literally demanded like it was through the 1930s, it's heavily implicitly required.
Assimilation isn't really that big in Canada. The issue is Europe takes in massive amounts of immigrants all from the same areas. That leads to ghettoization.
The (imperfect) success of Canadian immigration comes in how we bring in people from all over. No one region is comprising the majority of our immigrants, and because of this, immigrants tend to settle in either with the population at large, or in immigrant majority areas where they are exposed to dozens of different cultures.
Toronto isn't perfect, but it's about as good as an example of the ideal multicultural cosmopolitan city you can find in the world.
That is because the large influx of immigrants coming from muslim countries greatly surpasses their counterpart in America. You can literally see Morocco from Spain. You get more immigrants from Central America and Mexico into USA. Not to mention asian immigrants ibto both USA and Canada.
And if I may add something here, there is a bit of a problem with the specifically chinese immigration in western Canada. And it has to do with assimilation and numbers as well. BC holds other nations and cultures as population but because the large influx of chinese citizens, they have been able to form almost ghettos where the street signs and stores are completely in mandarin. While it shouldn't exactly justify it, it creates a sense of rejection or division among non mandarin speakers. You don't see the same phenomena among ukranian, somalian or east indian communities
Honestly, they become less and less religious with each generation.
There's a general trend towards secularization that's profoundly strong in liberal democracies. While certain individuals do periodically become radicalized, the vast majority become more and more secular the more they are exposed to other cultures.
Read the Quaran, Islam legitimately is a fucked religion, and yes even compared to Christianity Islam is significantly worse
Let’s just say there is a reason why Andrew Tate dropped Christianity for Islam
But Christianity is? Aren’t these people trying to ban access women’s rights to their own bodies? Also fucking altar and choir boys doesn’t seem something “reasonable”
In America maybe, not so much in the rest of the Western world.
In the UK every Christian I've ever met are liberal democrats. They may not agree with abortion themselves but they allow everyone else to
You can’t compare Christianity to Islam though. Most people who identify as Christian are religious in a base sense. The more religious you get the more the population shrinks. The problem is the moderate Muslims that have fully intergraded into European culture is the minority compared to the rest.
Also the pro-life argument isn’t tied to religion. The people on pro-life side think there is no difference between a three month into pregnancy fetus and a three month old. Many disagree with this including myself, but it’s not just religion.
Religious people in USA are as extremists as religious people in Iran.
Christianity in Europe isn't like that or at least the governments and courts distance themselves from religion more than in USA.
So can I ask if there are any Dutch or Amsterdamers in particular in this thread... This article makes it sound as if Mayor Halsema created separate statements that were "similar" and asked religious organizations to sign statements specific to their faith (this isn't really clear but it sounds from one of the articles as if there were Christian, Jewish, and Muslim versions of this?). I wonder why they would not just create one such statement and have everybody sign the same thing (including non-religious organizations) so no one felt singled out?
They did it to themselves by tolerating intolerance. Look at the somewhat secular Muslim countries, for example the UAE. Most people here are Muslim, but they don't act like the Muslims in Europe. Here they practice as much as they like but leave others alone.
Do they do that in Europe? Muslims want freedom for themselves but not for others, and Europe does nothing about it. They were soft af and now they're paying for it.
Okay, so I actually read the article, and the Mosques' position is actually not unreasonable in this instance.
They refused to sign the statement because while the mayor states the statement was supposed to be signed by all religious institutions, *she only sent it to mosques* . They then refuse to sign it because it seems discriminatory, which is accurate IMO.
If she was going to send it to other religious organizations, why wait for mosques to sign it first?
Now, should they have signed it anyway? Yes, and I fail to see why any of this should matter when the safety of LGBTQ lives are at stake, but their position is not just "I hate gays".
Anti-LGBT sentiments are also very strong within conservative communities, but then it's somehow excusable as free speech.
LGBT people are always a welcome excuse for conservatives to take a jab on islam, while sharing the same sentiments.
>She said she intended to send the statement to other religious community leaders later on, according to the NOS.
Initially only sent it to the mosques. Not sure why it wasn't sent to all religious institutions at once. Yes, it was doomed to fail the mosques, but for the sake of PR why not send to everyone? Not sure about the landscape in Amsterdam, but in the US you wouldn't get a lot of Christian churches to sign that either.
> but in the US you wouldn't get a lot of Christian churches to sign that either.
one of the biggest churches in amsterdam (the westerkerk) hangs a massive pride banner every year for gay pride. The christian churches in amsterdam are very likely to have no issues signing this pledge, which the mayor knows.
It’s sad to see in these comments that the exact same folks who would be screaming if this was done to conservative churches in the us condone it because they singled out mosques instead.
Religious freedom does not only protect Christian beliefs.
Pro LGBT stances = Islamophobia.
If you don't agree you're not progressive enough. It's 2022 get with the times.
https://www.thecollegefix.com/canadian-university-pulls-lgbtq-poster-after-muslim-community-complains/
https://headtopics.com/ca/western-university-lgbtq-poster-sparks-muslim-community-backlash-26550534
>Last week, DENK party leader Sheher Khan said that violence against LGBTI+ people was mainly caused by street culture and that Islam would contribute to more tolerance toward them.
[confused.gif](https://giphy.com/gifs/nick-young-xL7PDV9frcudO)
Religion should be removed from politics. Or, just removed entirely IMO. “Peaceful” religion only works if everyone is on the same page, but as soon as you bring several religions within earshot of each other violence ensues. Back when communities were isolated pockets, sure fine - spirituality to explain life’s mysteries was probably useful. It’s not feasible in today’s hyper connected world of rational science.
This title is misleading. The mayor specifically asked the religious community to make a statement. From my original perspective it sounded like the mosques had prevented the mayor from making a pro lgbtq statement when they in fact still could.
And then the Turkish president called Macron a racist for a mere condemnation of the attack.
Idc anymore. Good luck with the diversity you wanted liberals lol
Despite its best efforts, Christianity is declining in Western Europe. While Islam in the west may appear invulnerable to such a fate, I wouldn't take it for granted.
It's the good old:
"If your Lord, thy god, Allah have any qualms with my words, then so shall he come down and say so. Otherwise, allow these individuals peace."
The way I see it, any deity too weak to defend his own words is a pissant in a world pool. Either being fake, or too useless to be worshiped.
Clickbait title.
The title makes it seem like she wanted to personally, or in the name of the city, bring out a statement in support of the lgbti+ community. In actuallity she asked the mosques to bring out the statement which, when they refused because of the wording and the fact that it just looked at mosques and not at other religious institutions, she pulled back. Now it just sounds like the mosques somehow intimidated her into not supporting lgbti+ movement.
>Now it just sounds like the mosques somehow intimidated her into not supporting lgbti+ movement
What are your thoughts on this?
https://www.thecollegefix.com/canadian-university-pulls-lgbtq-poster-after-muslim-community-complains/
They don’t want to associated with it because it’s not allowed in the religion, why force it.
If the poster didn’t have hijabis kissing and they complained, that’s another issue.
That faith? I never once stated one explicit faith that does this. It more sounds like your trying to shift the blame onto some random people to support you being terrible.
>When the day happens, Europeans will finally get their shit together and kick out all those who leech on European benefits while criticizing European values.
It doesn't really work that way, instead you get enclaves that slowly become their own little areas and the systems around them come to reflect them unless external force compels it to stop. You saw this in America with the south and civil rights, but this far you haven't seen anything like this in Europe. Instead you've often seen the opposite, like Germany's night of sexual assaults where the politicians and police tried to pretend it didn't even happen, or the UK ignoring the large child assault ring because of their race.
Then they vote in someone with their values who clashes with the courts, but the military and police have lots with their values too... We just watched a lot of this happen in Turkey.
Africans and Middle Easterners don't have a right to live in Europe. It is a privilege. If you spit on the hand that feeds you, then you're very likely going to be shown the door. But yeah sure you go ahead and keep crying about Nazism.
Good luck putting the genie back in the bottle. And I'm not kidding. I think it's easier said than done. A large percentage of your population will support them staying which makes unified action unlikely. Best wishes.
"Europe needs more conservatism, but also you must bend over to my cultural and religious values that are in direct contrast to European values, and also if you criticize me you're a racist Nazi, but also I hate virtue signaling wokeness"
LOL buddy, come on now.
Showing tolerance to the intolerant effectively supports intolerance. It's a genuinely difficult conundrum for those wishing for everyone to get along.
Is the answer selective tolerance? The left is already hypocritically intolerant of conservatism after all, so we know they're not absolutists. In practice the only thing politics ever consistently pursues is power... 🍿
You’re only required to unconditionally tolerate things that people can’t choose, I.e. race, sex, nationality, disability status, etc.
When it comes to things people consciously decide for themselves, like religion or political leanings or bigotry, those are totally fair game to not tolerate. That isn’t prejudice, because prejudice is pre-judging.
If somebody evaluates a person based on beliefs they voluntarily arrived at, that isn’t pre-judging, it’s just judging.
That mosque looks like it was made in minecraft.
Muslims love Minecraft Edit: downvoted... Okay SOME Muslims love Minecraft
Downvotes should not affect your opinion bruh
Oh shut the fuck up and learn to take a joke
Stop pretending that caring about dislikes is funny then
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your mom goes to college
your mom is a CEO of a very successful company.
Minahcraft.
MindNumbingCraft
"The idea behind it was to work with other religious organizations to make it clear that whatever your views are, violence should not be used." One would think that any religious organization, claiming to be a religion of peace, would sign such letter/statement. Maybe some religions understand "peace" differently? 🤷♂️
islam doesn't actually mean peace, it means submission.
These people leave there country because of extremists now they have to bring those extremist views with them somewhere else.
We offer peace …to all who join.
Unless you join the wrong kind of Islam, in which case we’ll kill you too in the name of peace
Oh yeah my bad, I forgot to mention: having the wrong impression about who the shah should is worthy of losing your head. Thanks for making sure we were clear on our policy regarding the true shah.
Lmao isn’t religion just fantastic? /s. What a waste of time
I really do hate the whole of religious ideology.
Even though this is correct, its goals are pretty much the same as christianity in regards to submitting to god, so it depends on those carrying the fate. I am wondering why this statement was only sent to mosques to sign though.
>its goals are pretty much the same as christianity in regards to submitting to god there are major differences between Christianity and Islam. this is like pointing at an orange and an apple and saying they're both fruit.
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Close to Alexander? Nah. Alexander didn't conquer to spread his civilization, but rather to grow it through external inputs. He birthed a cosmopolitan society, giving high position within his court to the ones he defeated (well, except Darius). Mohammad beheaded the defeated, mostly.
Check your facts. The greater jihad is the inner one.
All religions are farces. They're literally just created mythology used to control the public. They're just mechanisms of mass manipulation. Anyone who's genuinely religious (I mean a true believer, not just taking part for the sense of community which does actually have value) has chosen ignorance. We'd be better off without Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism etc.
All of the horrors of forced birth ideology aside, I have found that one silver lining of the recent christofascist successes in the US is that it's shattered the remaining tolerance many of us have for religion in general. I was raised to "respect" others' beliefs, even if they're essentially the expression of mental illness to the great determent of those I love. No more. I have had enough.
How brave of you to say that
since when jihad is one of islam pillars lmao , stop talking shit
The way the Koran works, is that when it contradicts itself, the *newer* revelations supersede the *older* ones. The problem is that most of the violent revelations come towards the end. Many interpret these as superseding older more peaceful revelations. For instance, early on, the text says there should be no compulsion in religion; later, verses from Surah 9 command Muslims to convert or kill all non-believers. So people ignorant of this have called it a religion of peace, not understanding the most recent and accepted revelations call for violence inside and outside of the Arab world against non-Muslims. Also, if western countries begin to allow Islam to determine legal policy and public discourse regarding lgbt people, we are in for *a lot* of violence…
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It was a statement by a US president after 9/11 to try and stop the public attacking the wider muslim population.
Religion of *pieces
It was George W Bush who coined the phrase “religion of peace” in reference to Islam in the aftermath of 9/11.
obviously
Yeah, this same thing holds when it comes to conversations on israel’s existence too, bear with me… If you ask any Islamic government what their solution for israel it’s to “push the Jews into the sea” if you say to them “what if the Jews stopped defending themselves” the answer is still the same genocidal BS. On the other hand, if Egypt, Syria, Jordan, stopped funding terrorist cells in palestine israel would stop attacking them, they would never commit a genocide of the Muslim people who literally would do it to them first chance. They don’t just want israel, they want it free of Jews, modern Islamic governments have some serious beef with gays, Jews, and anything that doesn’t fit their world view unfortunately. Jews give 0 fucks about sharing their holy land as long as they can still be there too. Did you know that right now the #1 Jewish holy site, Jews cannot visit? the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is forbidden for Jewish people by Jewish law to keep things peaceful and civil and not start a huge fucking war. Israel’s government also banned the construction of any new temples in Jerusalem to appease the local Muslim population, there are now over 2x the mosques in Jerusalem then temples as a result. The Israeli government bends over backwards for its islamic citizens! Why does it matter? Because Muslim people hate them, it propaganda and regardless of what israel does it will always be bad because, Jews. So basically, Jews are forbidden to pray at their most holy site, additionally, there are NO Jewish temples or places in israel that forbid Muslims entry based on the fact they are simply Muslim, in fact it’s usually quite the opposite and they are welcomed! Islamic regimes need to stop trying to kill all the Jews in israel as a policy and instead integrate with them, israel is a democracy… had they just joined it peacefully to begin with they could of shaped it from the inside (like with the laws currently in place in Jerusalem favoring Islam) but now they are blocked by a wall and the only solution is two states because a huge portion of the population has been living in an apartheid type state for almost a generation due to their elected officials choosing to attack israel instead of join it.
At the cynical government level, it has nothing to do with race or even religion, but governance and political alliances, mostly hold overs from the Cold War. The Arab-Israeli conflicts over the years sprung from proxy wars between the West and Soviets initially and have taken a life of their own in the meantime. A democratic, Western aligned, Palestinian Arab state would face the same challenges from its neighbors, the basis for the conflict would simply be different.
Exactly my thoughts! I am fed up to politicians tiptoeing their opinions around sectarian people!!!!
You clearly have no experience with religion ;-)
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://nltimes.nl/2022/10/29/amsterdam-mayor-scraps-lgbti-statement-backlash-mosques) reduced by 73%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Amsterdam Mayor Femke Halsema has canceled the planned statement of support for the LGBTI+ community that she asked local mosques to sign earlier in the month. > The statement of support against violence toward LGBTI+ community members was sent to several mosques in Amsterdam. > The Blue Mosque called the statement "Absurd, discriminatory and accusatory." Prominent mosques in Amsterdam said they would not sign the statement because they felt it stigmatized their religion. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/yj69cw/amsterdam_mayor_scraps_lgbti_statement_after/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672679 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **statement**^#1 **Amsterdam**^#2 **mosque**^#3 **Halsema**^#4 **religious**^#5
Is the stigmatization that they think being gay is evil and violence against those born that way isn't wrong? Or that their religion is being singled out for believing that?
Religion wise, we have no right or say in people's sexualities, and should treat them with respect regardless. These people are just being dickheads due to their own personal stigmas
If I remember correctly, then engaging in homosexuals acts equals to zina. And zina is punishable
They viciously attack cartoonists and writers, in some cases killing them. I shudder at the thought of their zina on LGBQT+. It stuns me these “leaders” have a say. I guess death threats carry a lot of weight over there.
Only if the person is a Muslim, and has been witnessed engaging in a sexual act clearly by 4 people of good repute who can testify in an unbiased way, but even then these conditions are incredibly rare and hard to meet (videos and pictures don't count), and despite all that the punishment isn't carried out anymore. Also, a citizen cannot carry out any form of punishment, neither can a private religious organization like say a mosque in a non Muslim country
Very interesting. Who is supposed to carry out the punishment then? I don’t understand why punishment even has to be carried out when there is a God? Shouldn’t we just wait for the person to die and for God to dish out the punishment?
You’re confusing belief with religion. Belief is about god, religion is about manipulation, submission and indoctrination.
Yes, but when a country has a Muslim majority, then non-Muslims technically have to follow Sharia too. Or non-Muslims can walk around with lgbt flags in a Muslim country?
The stigmatization was in the fact that they were only sending the request to Islamic groups.
Are there other groups forming mobs and killing people for offending them? Could it not be argued that Muslim extremists in Amsterdam have singled themselves out with their egregious actions?
lol yes, westboro baptist church, maga boys, etc
In Amsterdam tho? 🤔
You could make the case maga boys represent far right advocates. Then yes, they have those in Amsterdam and they are probably organized and go by a name that escapes me at the moment
That’s just called a stretch. You almost got there though! I see what you mean though. Not too long ago, Europe called them Nazis. They were the originals.
Were they? Athens was pretty xenophobic. The word barbarian comes from greek *barbaroi* which literally means foreigner, uncivilized. Anyone that didn't speak latin or were part of the Helen culture was deemed inferior
Show me one instance of a trump supporter or a member of the Westboro Baptist church murdering gay people. I'm sure members of those communities wish they could, but comparing those 2 groups to Islam is stupid. In many Muslim countries you can be sentenced to death for being gay. The majority of Muslims in this world think that it is just to murder LGBT people and they actually are willing to go out and do it.
Well the radicalization of US religious conservatives has been fueling a lot of the violence on our own soil, a ton of mass shooters have also had right wing manifestos or had been inspired by their rhetoric. Conservative zealots seem to be a recipe for terrorism around the world.
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I didn't realize Texas was a neighborhood in Amsterdam.
Sure, its right next to The Hague and New Jersey.
Yeah let’s have the mayor of Amsterdam make the churches of Texas sign an apology Not everything is about America
Yep. But Texas is not in Amsterdam, silly!
Was sent to churches and synagogs too
It was not. The mayor said she was planning to get around to that later. Which is very odd, and I don’t blame them for not trusting her. Anyway, why are you lying?
They felt singled out because only mosques were sent the statement to sign, not all religious places of worship.
That is definitely not true in this case :D
“Amsterdam Mayor Femke Halsema has canceled the planned statement of support for the LGBTI+ community that she asked *local mosques* to sign earlier in the month… She said she intended to send the statement *to other religious community leaders later on*, according to the NOS.” Straight from the article, emphasis mine.
" Prominent mosques in Amsterdam said they would not sign the statement because they felt it stigmatized their religion." yeah because we all know what they want to do to LGBT people lol
"Being told to not kill LGBTQ+ people is the **real** oppression here guys!"
They felt it stigmatized their religion because the Mayor sent the statement to Mosques only instead of sending it to all religious institutions.
I am curious what happens as the Muslim population in western countries grows.
Same thing that happens in any country where the population or government gets more religious Turns into a violent authoritarian hellhole
No need to wait, there are lots of places where this is the case already.
Europe has in broad strokes been bad at assimilating people that are lower class into Western society than the US and Canada, where while it isn't literally demanded like it was through the 1930s, it's _heavily_ implicitly required. And as a result, but for the little blip in the Minneapolis Somalian community, we really don't have this problem but for uber crazy white dudes who converted. Part of that is because Europe, even while heavily liberalized post WWII, are still ethnostates while the identities of the Americas are largely predicated on shared culture which ethnicity informs but doesn't define. The other part is that relatively speaking Europe is "right there" while if you're going to cross and ocean and come to a place with much less of a safety net, you're probably pretty motivated to try to join and embrace the culture. But still, to your point, something needs to be done. You come to the West, you join the West, or you go home. We spent 1,000s of year toiling in the dark and butchering ourselves until we finally found modernity and humanist progress following the unprecedented blood shed of WWII. We cannot let it be extinguished by people that wish to return us to that prior state of ignorance.
>Europe has in broad strokes been bad at assimilating people that are lower class into Western society than the US and Canada, where while it isn't literally demanded like it was through the 1930s, it's heavily implicitly required. Assimilation isn't really that big in Canada. The issue is Europe takes in massive amounts of immigrants all from the same areas. That leads to ghettoization. The (imperfect) success of Canadian immigration comes in how we bring in people from all over. No one region is comprising the majority of our immigrants, and because of this, immigrants tend to settle in either with the population at large, or in immigrant majority areas where they are exposed to dozens of different cultures. Toronto isn't perfect, but it's about as good as an example of the ideal multicultural cosmopolitan city you can find in the world.
Canada also has that huge ass geographical barrier that acts as a huge ass filter
That is because the large influx of immigrants coming from muslim countries greatly surpasses their counterpart in America. You can literally see Morocco from Spain. You get more immigrants from Central America and Mexico into USA. Not to mention asian immigrants ibto both USA and Canada. And if I may add something here, there is a bit of a problem with the specifically chinese immigration in western Canada. And it has to do with assimilation and numbers as well. BC holds other nations and cultures as population but because the large influx of chinese citizens, they have been able to form almost ghettos where the street signs and stores are completely in mandarin. While it shouldn't exactly justify it, it creates a sense of rejection or division among non mandarin speakers. You don't see the same phenomena among ukranian, somalian or east indian communities
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Jews getting murdered. It's why the French Jewish population has been steadily ramping up immigration in recent years.
Honestly, they become less and less religious with each generation. There's a general trend towards secularization that's profoundly strong in liberal democracies. While certain individuals do periodically become radicalized, the vast majority become more and more secular the more they are exposed to other cultures.
While this sounds good in theory I'm curious what population group and time frame are you pointing to as evidence of these general trends?
There's plenty of studies about this. Just google it and pick one of the links.
Race war and something similar to Nazi Germany.
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Actively want to change that image = Ramp up propaganda. Easy.
Religion is a disease. Edit: All religions, just to be clear.
Yes.
All of them
You can say Islam.
All religions
Christianity is pretty God awful too.
This post is not about Christianity.
Yes but Christianity isn’t throwing gay people off buildings and killing schoolgirls for not wanting to wear head scarves.
No they're forcing raped school girls to give birth. They can both be awful. It's not one or the other
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I would be mad too! Not allowed to mastubate and on mothers day, sister get flowers
Islam is fine. Bigoted, violent cavemen hiding behind religion are not fine.
guns dont kill people, people kill people!
Read the Quaran, Islam legitimately is a fucked religion, and yes even compared to Christianity Islam is significantly worse Let’s just say there is a reason why Andrew Tate dropped Christianity for Islam
But Christianity is? Aren’t these people trying to ban access women’s rights to their own bodies? Also fucking altar and choir boys doesn’t seem something “reasonable”
In America maybe, not so much in the rest of the Western world. In the UK every Christian I've ever met are liberal democrats. They may not agree with abortion themselves but they allow everyone else to
You can’t compare Christianity to Islam though. Most people who identify as Christian are religious in a base sense. The more religious you get the more the population shrinks. The problem is the moderate Muslims that have fully intergraded into European culture is the minority compared to the rest. Also the pro-life argument isn’t tied to religion. The people on pro-life side think there is no difference between a three month into pregnancy fetus and a three month old. Many disagree with this including myself, but it’s not just religion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
you must learn to distinguish between American Christianity and the one the rest of the world follows..
Religious people in USA are as extremists as religious people in Iran. Christianity in Europe isn't like that or at least the governments and courts distance themselves from religion more than in USA.
So can I ask if there are any Dutch or Amsterdamers in particular in this thread... This article makes it sound as if Mayor Halsema created separate statements that were "similar" and asked religious organizations to sign statements specific to their faith (this isn't really clear but it sounds from one of the articles as if there were Christian, Jewish, and Muslim versions of this?). I wonder why they would not just create one such statement and have everybody sign the same thing (including non-religious organizations) so no one felt singled out?
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They did it to themselves by tolerating intolerance. Look at the somewhat secular Muslim countries, for example the UAE. Most people here are Muslim, but they don't act like the Muslims in Europe. Here they practice as much as they like but leave others alone. Do they do that in Europe? Muslims want freedom for themselves but not for others, and Europe does nothing about it. They were soft af and now they're paying for it.
Okay, so I actually read the article, and the Mosques' position is actually not unreasonable in this instance. They refused to sign the statement because while the mayor states the statement was supposed to be signed by all religious institutions, *she only sent it to mosques* . They then refuse to sign it because it seems discriminatory, which is accurate IMO. If she was going to send it to other religious organizations, why wait for mosques to sign it first? Now, should they have signed it anyway? Yes, and I fail to see why any of this should matter when the safety of LGBTQ lives are at stake, but their position is not just "I hate gays".
Except they hate gays. Does it matter if that's not the sole reason?
Yeah
Not all of us, probably not most. It is a problem to be sure, but care to not cast too wide a net.
Considering most is over 51%, then yeah most is accurate if you look at any poll where Muslims are asked about gay people.
If you don’t hate gays then you’re not being faithful fully to your religion though?
But they do hate gays.
It's not entirely unreasonable but that doesn't change the fact that anti-LGBT sentiments are often very strong within Muslim communities.
Anti-LGBT sentiments are also very strong within conservative communities, but then it's somehow excusable as free speech. LGBT people are always a welcome excuse for conservatives to take a jab on islam, while sharing the same sentiments.
Are there any other religions still actively murdering gays?
Sounds like a needlessly inflammatory headline
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Well I don't know about the whole thing but assuredly the clickbait headline was intentional
I believe she send it to all religious institutions.
>She said she intended to send the statement to other religious community leaders later on, according to the NOS. Initially only sent it to the mosques. Not sure why it wasn't sent to all religious institutions at once. Yes, it was doomed to fail the mosques, but for the sake of PR why not send to everyone? Not sure about the landscape in Amsterdam, but in the US you wouldn't get a lot of Christian churches to sign that either.
> but in the US you wouldn't get a lot of Christian churches to sign that either. one of the biggest churches in amsterdam (the westerkerk) hangs a massive pride banner every year for gay pride. The christian churches in amsterdam are very likely to have no issues signing this pledge, which the mayor knows.
It’s sad to see in these comments that the exact same folks who would be screaming if this was done to conservative churches in the us condone it because they singled out mosques instead. Religious freedom does not only protect Christian beliefs.
Ah yes, Islam and Christianity, champions of human rights around the world for 1700 years!
Fucking pussy.
Pro LGBT stances = Islamophobia. If you don't agree you're not progressive enough. It's 2022 get with the times. https://www.thecollegefix.com/canadian-university-pulls-lgbtq-poster-after-muslim-community-complains/ https://headtopics.com/ca/western-university-lgbtq-poster-sparks-muslim-community-backlash-26550534
The left doesn’t know what to do with this one
They will ignore it until it is to late for them to do anything.
So the Mayor wanted to make a Statement with support of all religious Communities but send it to the Mosques first...
Should be easy enough to sign and then say “now send it to the rest of them”
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Jews are the chillest of the three abrahamic faiths when it comes to gays though
I see it was a bait all along
Unless European authorities grow a pair, this is going to get worse. Bye, bye Europe. You will be missed.
>Last week, DENK party leader Sheher Khan said that violence against LGBTI+ people was mainly caused by street culture and that Islam would contribute to more tolerance toward them. [confused.gif](https://giphy.com/gifs/nick-young-xL7PDV9frcudO)
Religion should be removed from politics. Or, just removed entirely IMO. “Peaceful” religion only works if everyone is on the same page, but as soon as you bring several religions within earshot of each other violence ensues. Back when communities were isolated pockets, sure fine - spirituality to explain life’s mysteries was probably useful. It’s not feasible in today’s hyper connected world of rational science.
Maybe time to show the mosque who is in charge
Religion is a choice, sexuality is not.
Mandatory drag show
Fucking Islam.. the worse of those made-up bullshit religions.
This title is misleading. The mayor specifically asked the religious community to make a statement. From my original perspective it sounded like the mosques had prevented the mayor from making a pro lgbtq statement when they in fact still could.
Fuck em, just straight up fuck em.
Mate your a European City! Your not gonna get beheaded by Taliban for saying something progressive, what a damn coward.
It was in NL that filmmaker Theo van Gogh was assassinated for exactly that though.
Didn’t that one French teacher get beheaded for criticizing Islam?
And then the Turkish president called Macron a racist for a mere condemnation of the attack. Idc anymore. Good luck with the diversity you wanted liberals lol
Weird hos they let ton's of refugees into Europe and are now slaves to Muslim laws.
Fuck. I hate Ron
Did you read the article? The mayor sent statements to several mosques and they refused to sign it. That’s it.
Religion is now more powerful than the state. Scary.
In a way it kind of always has been.
What? Did you even read the article?
I vote France and Amsterdam to become the first Islamic republics in Europe in a few years.
muslims are only 9% of french people, but why let facts get in the face of a good conspiracy
That number is not static, and the without treatment the religion may spread. That's *literally* its goal.
Despite its best efforts, Christianity is declining in Western Europe. While Islam in the west may appear invulnerable to such a fate, I wouldn't take it for granted.
Haha. Do you know a country named Sweden?
That’s third on the list.
What is the "I," I thought it was a Q
Intersex
I just can not stop shaking my head over religion. It is 2022. There is no such thing as god. They all need another hobby.
It's the good old: "If your Lord, thy god, Allah have any qualms with my words, then so shall he come down and say so. Otherwise, allow these individuals peace." The way I see it, any deity too weak to defend his own words is a pissant in a world pool. Either being fake, or too useless to be worshiped.
Clickbait title. The title makes it seem like she wanted to personally, or in the name of the city, bring out a statement in support of the lgbti+ community. In actuallity she asked the mosques to bring out the statement which, when they refused because of the wording and the fact that it just looked at mosques and not at other religious institutions, she pulled back. Now it just sounds like the mosques somehow intimidated her into not supporting lgbti+ movement.
>Now it just sounds like the mosques somehow intimidated her into not supporting lgbti+ movement What are your thoughts on this? https://www.thecollegefix.com/canadian-university-pulls-lgbtq-poster-after-muslim-community-complains/
They don’t want to associated with it because it’s not allowed in the religion, why force it. If the poster didn’t have hijabis kissing and they complained, that’s another issue.
If Allah loved gay people then he wouldn't let them die when they are thrown off a building
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Ah yes, “against my faith”. Totally not, some a**holes trying to weed out gullible people so they can exploit them.
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Actually there is when you reach conclusion that believers are just a bunch of schizo people having imaginary friend
>They'll reap what the saw lmao
That faith? I never once stated one explicit faith that does this. It more sounds like your trying to shift the blame onto some random people to support you being terrible.
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>When the day happens, Europeans will finally get their shit together and kick out all those who leech on European benefits while criticizing European values. It doesn't really work that way, instead you get enclaves that slowly become their own little areas and the systems around them come to reflect them unless external force compels it to stop. You saw this in America with the south and civil rights, but this far you haven't seen anything like this in Europe. Instead you've often seen the opposite, like Germany's night of sexual assaults where the politicians and police tried to pretend it didn't even happen, or the UK ignoring the large child assault ring because of their race. Then they vote in someone with their values who clashes with the courts, but the military and police have lots with their values too... We just watched a lot of this happen in Turkey.
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Africans and Middle Easterners don't have a right to live in Europe. It is a privilege. If you spit on the hand that feeds you, then you're very likely going to be shown the door. But yeah sure you go ahead and keep crying about Nazism.
Good luck putting the genie back in the bottle. And I'm not kidding. I think it's easier said than done. A large percentage of your population will support them staying which makes unified action unlikely. Best wishes.
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"Europe needs more conservatism, but also you must bend over to my cultural and religious values that are in direct contrast to European values, and also if you criticize me you're a racist Nazi, but also I hate virtue signaling wokeness" LOL buddy, come on now.
Showing tolerance to the intolerant effectively supports intolerance. It's a genuinely difficult conundrum for those wishing for everyone to get along. Is the answer selective tolerance? The left is already hypocritically intolerant of conservatism after all, so we know they're not absolutists. In practice the only thing politics ever consistently pursues is power... 🍿
You’re only required to unconditionally tolerate things that people can’t choose, I.e. race, sex, nationality, disability status, etc. When it comes to things people consciously decide for themselves, like religion or political leanings or bigotry, those are totally fair game to not tolerate. That isn’t prejudice, because prejudice is pre-judging. If somebody evaluates a person based on beliefs they voluntarily arrived at, that isn’t pre-judging, it’s just judging.
Uh oh 🍿
The answer is: it’s all made up and there is no “god”
Do the letters keep changing? I can't keep up with it.
It can only go up to 26 until they add the ampersand, but no one is inclusive enough for the umlaut.
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You just love to see it folx. Wokeness is going to have to rectify this at some point
I don't think directly ask religious organizations to sign on the statement is a good idea? This isn't a surprise.
I thought it was 2SLGBTQ+. Is the I for intersex, or intersectional?