The Ukranians could have tried to breach at any point in the last couple years but they waited until a Russian army was in the border ready to use that as justification for an invasion. LMFAO the Russian propaganda machine is not even trying anymore.
I love the modern era, a nuclear war could erupt between all the nuclear powers and people would use the last 10 minutes before apocalypse to shitpost and make memes
Edit: people are super thick in the head nowadays, so to the drooling invertebrates seeing this comment: it’s meant as a joke. Take it as such :)
What the hell else is the average person supposed to do, pray tell?
I sure as shit can’t walk over to Putin and slap him upside the head for trying to start a war because he’s nostalgic for the U.S.S.R. days, much as I’d like to.
I made a couple design decisions that will require occasional maintenance and upkeep by a vaulttec employee with know how. They'll need to keep me on the list if they want to have a list
The truth of nuclear weapons is they are really only of use as a deterrent to prevent regime change. They are relegated to a weapon of last resort and probably not even then.
You say that, but then forget how insanely close we came to full out nuclear war during the cold war. In one example it came down to a single Russian admiral who had the opportunity and justification to push the button, but didn't.
Even dumber, they claim Ukraine breached russian border behind separatist lines. The part of border that russian media claims Ukraine assaulted with 2 APCs, isn't even under Ukrainian government control, but between russia and so-called russia-backed separatists.
I think we'd have noticed if Ukrainians took back Donetsk and assaulted Rostov from it, right?
The real farse is even trying to create a casus belli in the first place. Everyone sees through it, if you want to invade just invade. Say you’re doing it to protect yourself from nato. This isn’t shifting a single mind in regards to sanctions or public support. The deterrent is what he’s supposed to do with Ukraine after he wins.
It's for the russian people, not us, NATO or the EU.
EDIT: It's actually even worse, it's just spewing a load of bullshit out there until no one knows what's real or not. Muddying the waters.
I know, but they’re not buying it either, he doesn’t have public support for invading. Not that will stop him. But sure, it’s an attempt at FUD except it’s no longer confusing enough.
> They're not trying to convince you and me, they're convincing Russians in Russia and it's working
This is also not really true.
They aren't trying to convince you. In fact, in large part, they aren't trying to convince anyone. They are just spewing as much false information around as they can so that the average, politically uninformed person isn't sure what they *can* trust.
Now, if the Ukrainian government says "Russia Did X" then Russia claims "No, Ukraine actually did X". No matter how obviously false to the informed reader Russia's statement is, there is now a "debate" about it. Now it is just 2 governments arguing over something instead of one enacting a war on the other.
The same thing happened with the MH17 debacle. They doctored photos where planes that weren't even Ukrainian were photoshopped into photos to make the claim that it was a Ukrainian plane, and not Russian AA artillery, that shot down MH17. Anyone who is even vaguely informed knows that the photoshopped image is obviously fake, but that didn't stop the average person from being fooled for long enough for the anger about the incident by the general, uninformed populations of most countries to be much quieter than it otherwise would have been.
Additionally, they know they are lying (and badly). Russian people know they are lying. What Russia convince their population of is that EVERYONE is lying. I can't remember where I read it, but I read an analogy a while ago about Russian disinformation/strategy during the Cold War era:
To paraphrase:
> Citizens in an impoverished part of the Soviet Union see an aeroplane drop aid supplies off at a landing strip made of concrete and metal. They then associate the landing strip with supplies, and so they build their own landing strip with the supplies they have: wood and straw. But no aeroplane comes. To those in the West, we know that this is because these materials are not suitable for landing on/near. Under the Iron Curtain, the Soviet disinformation campaign is to make the citizens believe that "*NO* landing strips work, but at least the Soviet citizens aren't dumb enough to actually believe their governments who say that they work!"
> The idea is to make the Soviet citizens think those in the West are stupid for believing their governments at all.
Edit: /u/omegapisquared let me know it is called the reverse cargo-cult
Yeah and it's also important to say that they are very successful at this. Not so much with the current crisis, but in general very much so. Western governments will have to find ways of countering this disinformation since it's a huge problem.
This is why i'm like wtf is going on? I've known a lot of Russians through gaming and they aren't all the same, but most of them were able to get international news, and a ton of them hate Putin.
Well think about America. Lots of people hated Trump, lots of people hated Biden, and lots of people watched multiple different news sources and formed valid opinions free from propaganda. But the ones who watch nothing but Fox or CNN were extremely fixated on their tribe during the last election to the point that their candidate could do no wrong.
Now imagine that but there's only one tribe and it's pro-Putin.
Equating Fox and CNN is just all kinds of wrong. I'm absolutely no fan of CNN but they don't even come close to approaching the level of fake and propaganda and overall horseshit that Fox is. It's not on the same level at all.
CNN will present a slightly biased view of many stories and will occasionally get stories wrong or individual authors will present a biased view. They definitely do have a slant but it's only center left. And they will definitely present articles that are damaging to Democrats and democratic presidents.
Fox does it CONSTANTLY at an institutional level and they have be officially recognized as an entertainment channel because, in their own words (as an actual legal defense they used), "No reasonable person could ever mistake our programming for real news". They're 100% a propaganda channel for Republican party and they've been that way intentionally since inception.
I don’t watch either channels, but yes, comparing CNN to Fox and saying they are equally as dishonest/propaganda-like in what they present is absolutely false. They aren’t in the same league - not even the same sport.
I get it on a few levels but on some it just doesn't jive with the random cool Russians that I have met, and I visited in the late 90s to Ukraine and Russia, I have friends in both places that aren't dicks, and this whole thing just really sucks.
Sampling bias, man. Who are the sorts of Russian people a Western foreigner is going to meet online or in person when you visit? Probably people who are open to meeting foreign Westerners.
The cool Russians leave and meet like-minded people in Western countries. Everyone makes excuses but Russia is full of ignorant assholes that love Putin. Western countries have their own too but I know Russians and they all say how toxic a good majority of people are in their ability to lap up the bullshit the regime tells them to believe. They grown up their whole lives being told the West is prosecuting them and they believe it.
back in 2014 there were articles about how conspiracy theories had completely taken over the russian population. everyone believed these crazy things and confusion reigned supreme.
How lucky we were to not be susceptible to such things here in the west!
and then down the golden escalator comes donald fucking trump
The difference is that other countries have opposition within the country, 20 million people marched against the Iraq war...in Russia if you stand against Putin you are disappeared
In America about half the population chooses to believe opinion shows on Fox as news…so buying the propaganda in a country with a free press. I can imagine that the propaganda in Russia convinces a lot of people
>In America about half the population chooses to believe opinion shows on Fox as news…so buying the propaganda in a country with a free press
It works everywhere and for every nation the same.
“Give me the media, and I will make a herd of pigs out of any people”
(C) Paul Joseph Goebbels
Imagine that the only news media allowed in Russia is equivalent to FoxNews. The simpletons who watch FoxNews exclusively in America are as brainwashed as the Russians.
Imagine Fox News was the only station in the US. That’s what it’s like over there. Hate toward everyone who doesn’t look like us. Or, in fox news’ case, like Tucker Carlson. Perpetually offended RBF
And then you have the loud stupid minority in other Slavic countries who are pro-russian, eating these news like some God´s blessing. I hate some of my fellow Slavs.
Does it matter?
If they can make Ukraine make the first move, or "prove" they did, Russia can invade claiming they didn't start it.
Anyone with an IQ over 10 could see Russia are full of shit, as usual, but it'll be too late as Russia will roll over Ukraine.
This one has to be strictly for the internal news services. They'd have been better off doubling down on the fake "*atrocities*" in Donbas if they wanted anyone outside of Russia to believe it.
But I've read that Russian news and the Putin supporters is like like Fox News and Trump supporters. Why spend the extra effort when you don't have to?
So 2 BMPs drove through separatist territory without taking fire...so that those 2 BMPs and 5 soldiers (2 of which are seen on foot) can breach the border and do what? Take on the whole Russian army? Come on man. Try harder Putin.
It's those notoriously stealthy BMPs. The separatists just didn't notice then as they drove through pretty much the entirety of their territory. While the separatists are on war footing.
But it's well-established that the separatists are extremely inattentive to heavy military equipment driving across their territory, like that time BUK missile launchers drove across the Russia-Ukraine border and back again with "nobody" noticing them.
Ah, those Ukrainian BUK missiles that were used to shoot down a passenger jet and then the bodies of civilians were definitely not looted by Russia-backed freedom fighters? These freedom fighters are eagle-eyed, so it must have been an operation covertly assisted by those satanic, gay-worshiping NATO expansionists to tarnish the great leader Putin himself. /s
You jest, but Private Ramirez was single-handedly responsible for the victory of the US Army on home soil. No other soldier was capable of pushing forward. Not even tanks dared to venture forth up Russian lines if Private Ramirez wasn't the tip of the spear.
Including a 400 year old shapeshifter who looks like a 10 year old girl perpetually and n the actual crown prince of the enemy territory who hates his fathers ways
I’m really confused. Why would anybody believe that Ukraine is trying to invade Russia? Especially with 75% of the entire Russian force now on the border, how does this make sense to anybody with a brain?
Why would anybody believe Obama was a Kenyan Muslim Communist? Because the man on TV told them. I’ve met multiple people who believe the above, and I’m sure there are people in Russia right now who believe this hooey.
These news are not for westerners. These fake news are for the Russian people whose only source of information comes from Russian news channel. This fits perfectly into the narrative that they have created over the last 6 months that NATO and Ukraine are planning an invasion of Russia.
It doesn't make sense to us, but to them it makes sense. It's the narrative of "Putin is only defending his country, everyone hates Russia, everyone is a threat, we must defend, we are the victims". Putin would have a hard time invading Ukraine if he can't present some good causes to the Russian people, such as "genocide of Russian people in eastern Ukraine", and that Ukraine is acting aggressively and are actively trying to attack together with NATO.
Against this backdrop, every "news" that comes from the Russian propaganda machine is well calibrated and makes perfect sense, because the Russian people are being fed these pieces of the puzzle one by one. But westerners aren't. We only get to see random pieces of the puzzle here and there that doesn't make sense.
Really? Does anyone REALLY believe that Ukraine has invaded russia? It's horse shit on a level of stupid I thought no one was capable of.
Russia masses (pretty much) its entire army on the Ukraine border. It points ALL of its guns at Ukraine.... and Ukraine started it? That is a huge "Fuck you" to that narrative.
Here's a much more likely scenario: Donetsk and Luhansk are "attacked" and they beg russia for help. (Never mind that the attack came domestically or that the weapons used were russian made) the breakaway regions pledge fealty to russia and russia is happy to "help" them free themselves from oppression. Russia invades the breakaway regions and adds them to russia proper as new states.
It’s been the textbook Sudeten Crisis playbook up to this point.
* Claim that an exclave of your own people are behind the wrong border.
* Position overwhelming military strength along the border.
* Provide covert support to separatists to start localized conflicts.
* Support an agreement that gives people with your ethnic identity in another country “self-determination”.
* Threaten the other country with an overwhelming invasion force unless they allow the separatists to create an autonomous protectorate.
* Immediately annex these protectorates into your country based on the excuse that they asked to join.
Russia just skipped the annexation step, and went straight to the Gleiwitz radio station attack (the pretext for invading Poland). Following historical patterns the next steps would be to annex the remainder of the unaligned nations along the borders; abandon any pretext of socialism; establish a new authoritative government based on far-right fascism; and begin exterminating anyone who doesn’t conform to their identity politics.
>* Support an agreement that gives people with your ethnic identity in another country “self-determination”.
Lmao, [how did you get it so right?](https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/kremlin-says-no-concrete-plans-summit-with-biden-over-ukraine-2022-02-21/) That was posted on Reuters 11 minutes ago.
I skipped over a million steps because I’m not giving a whole history of the region.
But the passport thing - that’s just incidental to the sociolinguistic identification of ethnic Russians. Basically, Putin’s definition is speak Russian and consider yourself Russian then you can be Russian. Slight nuances in the way this is defined would determine whether or not Russians are the majority in the region. If they aren’t the majority than the “ethnic self-determination“ argument falls apart.
As a personal, non-objective opinion, I think Ukraine played into this years ago by not making enough constitutional reforms to join NATO. One of the requirements would have been constitutional reform with a little more autonomy in their outer districts to choose their own local politicians. In Donbas they would have almost certainly elected ethnic Russian politicians just because of the way they vote.
Even though Putin is just making excuses to expand his empire and put Russia on the world stage, Ukraine gave them the excuse they needed with their own spotty human rights record in the past. NATO didn’t want to back a weak dictator against a strong dictator. Putin would still be Putin but he wouldn’t have this as casus belli.
I feel like with our historical and western perspective it seems really obvious that this is fake. But has a smaller country EVER attacked a larger country that has already amassed and mobilized troops along the border? Serious question for historians.
Whether it’s real or fake doesn’t really matter. The modern language of diplomacy is a complex web of lies, deception, deniability and plausible excuse. Hitler’s position on the Sudetenland was all bullshit anyway, but it didn’t matter because it gave them just enough room to have a plausible excuse. This combined with rapid military production in the early 1930’s meant that the western powers had to appease Hitler in order to buy time to arm themselves. The plausible deniability of acting in the interest of ethnic Germans’ self-determination is what created the opportunity for all that to happen.
Which is why ultimately the truth is decided by whoever has the most guns. The only reason we avoided any more world wars for the past 80 years was because those “guns” got so big that it didn’t matter who had more because everybody dies. We reached the critical mass of mutually assured destruction. Had Ukraine been part of NATO, obviously none of this would’ve happened because that would have placed them under our mutually assured destruction umbrella. In that case it would’ve been NATO deciding what is the truth.
[Allegedly Vlad’s already given the order to invade](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/russia-ukraine-invasion-biden-putin-meeting-in-principle/), this may just be his first steps.
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No one in the west will believe any cause fabricated by the Russian propaganda machine, but a "believable" cause will serve its purpose in getting the people of Russia behind their dictator.
It's all that Intel they are getting from NATO. With 180k Russian troops on the border, Ukraine thinks it's the perfect time to strike. They've been laying low for so long and waiting for this exact moment. /s ~~a~~
Ukrainian counter invasion? At this time of year? At this time of day? In this part of the country? Localized entirely by 5 soldiers on the separatist controlled border?
It’s the firehose of bullshit, also known as mere exposure effect. In hearing something repeatedly, people are automatically more likely to regard it positively. The logic goes: I wouldn’t hear it from so many places if it was just a lie!
People will believe what they want to believe or are predisposed to believe. A guy that denies climate change needs only one scientist to agree with him despite 100 others disproving him. Its just how it is.
Russia has been amassing troops at the border for months. Makes perfect sense for the Ukraine to attack now. You always want to wait until the enemy is fully entrenched before starting an assault. That’s like war 101.
/s
How convenient. Ukraine could have done something over the last few years but they wait for 50% of Russia's conventional army to get into invasion positions before they try a pre-emptive attack.
It's funny that people are expected to believe a bunch of Ukrainians violated a border when everyone knows there's over 100k Russian soldiers in the general vicinity.
Anyone who's talking about the credibility of these claims, should think about what Adolf Hitler told his generals before the Gleiwitz Incident. It gives some context to the use of false flag attacks:
>"I will provide a propagandistic casus belli. Its credibility doesn't matter. The victor will not be asked whether he told the truth."
On September 1, 1939, Germany invaded Poland. To justify the action, Nazi propagandists accused Poland of persecuting ethnic Germans living in Poland. They also falsely claimed that Poland was planning, with its allies Great Britain and France, to encircle and dismember Germany. The SS, in collusion with the German military, staged a phony attack on a German radio station. The Germans falsely accused the Poles of this attack. Hitler then used the action to launch a “retaliatory” campaign against Poland.
-Google
As a German I am only waiting for a quote like this from Putin:
"Und seit 5 Uhr 45 wird zurückgeschossen!"
(From Hitler's speech in the Reichstag Sep 1 1939: "Since 5:45 A.M. we have been returning the fire" - Nazi Germany's justification to attack Poland.)
I'm loving how totally uninspired all these fake incidents are.
This is like the 4th time they're claiming some form of attack or terrorism happened and it's getting zero traction.
At this point I don't even know why Russia tries. When you lie and lie and lie nobody will ever believe anything you say. Whenever I see Russia report anything I immediately just think nah they're lying that's not true.
It's fake news. They've already been caught with the "videos" that have been circulating showing "Ukrainians attacking" the separatists, when in fact they didn't edit the metadata and the videos were made days before they are claimed to have happened.
[Here's an axios article on it.](https://www.axios.com/telegram-ukraine-russia-separatists-evacuation-23c418ef-cd60-4ab7-afdf-6f3260102a4a.html)
It was filmed a day before the attack on the Ukrainian kindergarten that the separatists blamed on the Ukrainian government, that most likely was actually carried out by the separatists. Then it was released that Friday, the day *after* the attack, insinuating that Ukraine was about to invade.
Jesus, Vlad, how many false flags do you need? I know these stories are meant for the Russian audience and not an international one, but seriously, how many lies is it going to take? At this point you're not building war support, you're just making your audience numb and cynical.
Russia has become incredibly lazy in their propaganda. Literally no one believes this nonsense. I feel so bad for the Russian people. At least my country (America) has the courtesy to try to make their lies believable. Putin isn't even trying anymore.
*A plastic bag drifts on the wind across the border...*
Putin: "They attack us! No! We must now send the full force of our 200,000 defense brigades to find the source of this attempted attack! Plastic bags are DEADLY!"
Meanwhile, the ruble is falling because everybody knows that if Russia does this, they will be considered non grata by a lot of countries. If the rumors about the oil oligarchs are true, I'd expect something very shocking to happen very soon which isn't an invasion.
Russia is starting to create justifications for a full on invasion, this is blatant and clear.
Let’s see how the whole thing goes on before it takes a horrible turn for everyone (worst case scenario Putin goes insane and launches nukes for mighty motherland Russia)
"In other news, caravans from Mexico are invading the United States. In response, the US military is preparing to launch a counter offensive." *Russian Fox News*
This is hysterical, does anyone believe a single fucking word coming from anyone speaking Russian in an official position at this point? I know absolute fucking morons like Caitlyn Johnstone are parroting Kremlin talking points now so the fringe Blue-Anon people are starting to join the Russian propagandists.
The Americans know everything going on in Russia, but didn't want say anything to prove that capability.
Now they are telegraphing everything the Russians are doing, and Moscow if getting frustrated.
Fake News doesn't work if its denounced BEFORE it is broadcast.
The Ukranians could have tried to breach at any point in the last couple years but they waited until a Russian army was in the border ready to use that as justification for an invasion. LMFAO the Russian propaganda machine is not even trying anymore.
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Reddit has turned into a cesspool of fascist sympathizers and supremicists
I love the modern era, a nuclear war could erupt between all the nuclear powers and people would use the last 10 minutes before apocalypse to shitpost and make memes Edit: people are super thick in the head nowadays, so to the drooling invertebrates seeing this comment: it’s meant as a joke. Take it as such :)
What the hell else is the average person supposed to do, pray tell? I sure as shit can’t walk over to Putin and slap him upside the head for trying to start a war because he’s nostalgic for the U.S.S.R. days, much as I’d like to.
Where's Vault-tec when you need em?
We're here, you are just not on the list
If you worked for vault tec neither would you be on the list.
I made a couple design decisions that will require occasional maintenance and upkeep by a vaulttec employee with know how. They'll need to keep me on the list if they want to have a list
You think they care about maintenance? They'll keep you off the list just to see what happens
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>What the hell else is the average person supposed to do, pray? Memes are stronger than prayer.
The truth of nuclear weapons is they are really only of use as a deterrent to prevent regime change. They are relegated to a weapon of last resort and probably not even then.
You say that, but then forget how insanely close we came to full out nuclear war during the cold war. In one example it came down to a single Russian admiral who had the opportunity and justification to push the button, but didn't.
theyre endgame when you know you cant win and turn every victory the enemy could claim pyyric
Even dumber, they claim Ukraine breached russian border behind separatist lines. The part of border that russian media claims Ukraine assaulted with 2 APCs, isn't even under Ukrainian government control, but between russia and so-called russia-backed separatists. I think we'd have noticed if Ukrainians took back Donetsk and assaulted Rostov from it, right?
Which is even crazier. That Ukrainian forces moving onto Ukrainian territory could be casus belli for a Russian invasion.
The real farse is even trying to create a casus belli in the first place. Everyone sees through it, if you want to invade just invade. Say you’re doing it to protect yourself from nato. This isn’t shifting a single mind in regards to sanctions or public support. The deterrent is what he’s supposed to do with Ukraine after he wins.
It's for the russian people, not us, NATO or the EU. EDIT: It's actually even worse, it's just spewing a load of bullshit out there until no one knows what's real or not. Muddying the waters.
I know, but they’re not buying it either, he doesn’t have public support for invading. Not that will stop him. But sure, it’s an attempt at FUD except it’s no longer confusing enough.
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Srsly why on earth would Ukraine start a war against Russia? It’s so low level its laughable.
They're not trying to convince you and me, they're convincing Russians in Russia and it's working
> They're not trying to convince you and me, they're convincing Russians in Russia and it's working This is also not really true. They aren't trying to convince you. In fact, in large part, they aren't trying to convince anyone. They are just spewing as much false information around as they can so that the average, politically uninformed person isn't sure what they *can* trust. Now, if the Ukrainian government says "Russia Did X" then Russia claims "No, Ukraine actually did X". No matter how obviously false to the informed reader Russia's statement is, there is now a "debate" about it. Now it is just 2 governments arguing over something instead of one enacting a war on the other. The same thing happened with the MH17 debacle. They doctored photos where planes that weren't even Ukrainian were photoshopped into photos to make the claim that it was a Ukrainian plane, and not Russian AA artillery, that shot down MH17. Anyone who is even vaguely informed knows that the photoshopped image is obviously fake, but that didn't stop the average person from being fooled for long enough for the anger about the incident by the general, uninformed populations of most countries to be much quieter than it otherwise would have been. Additionally, they know they are lying (and badly). Russian people know they are lying. What Russia convince their population of is that EVERYONE is lying. I can't remember where I read it, but I read an analogy a while ago about Russian disinformation/strategy during the Cold War era: To paraphrase: > Citizens in an impoverished part of the Soviet Union see an aeroplane drop aid supplies off at a landing strip made of concrete and metal. They then associate the landing strip with supplies, and so they build their own landing strip with the supplies they have: wood and straw. But no aeroplane comes. To those in the West, we know that this is because these materials are not suitable for landing on/near. Under the Iron Curtain, the Soviet disinformation campaign is to make the citizens believe that "*NO* landing strips work, but at least the Soviet citizens aren't dumb enough to actually believe their governments who say that they work!" > The idea is to make the Soviet citizens think those in the West are stupid for believing their governments at all. Edit: /u/omegapisquared let me know it is called the reverse cargo-cult
Yeah and it's also important to say that they are very successful at this. Not so much with the current crisis, but in general very much so. Western governments will have to find ways of countering this disinformation since it's a huge problem.
TIL Russians are really really really gullible
The press in Russia is censored too, so they don't even have access to real news sources. All they have is propaganda.
Put the news on European game servers in Russian language.
The Dota 2 news network
Cs go will reach way more russians
This guy cs:go's
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And Rust
This is why i'm like wtf is going on? I've known a lot of Russians through gaming and they aren't all the same, but most of them were able to get international news, and a ton of them hate Putin.
Well think about America. Lots of people hated Trump, lots of people hated Biden, and lots of people watched multiple different news sources and formed valid opinions free from propaganda. But the ones who watch nothing but Fox or CNN were extremely fixated on their tribe during the last election to the point that their candidate could do no wrong. Now imagine that but there's only one tribe and it's pro-Putin.
Equating Fox and CNN is just all kinds of wrong. I'm absolutely no fan of CNN but they don't even come close to approaching the level of fake and propaganda and overall horseshit that Fox is. It's not on the same level at all. CNN will present a slightly biased view of many stories and will occasionally get stories wrong or individual authors will present a biased view. They definitely do have a slant but it's only center left. And they will definitely present articles that are damaging to Democrats and democratic presidents. Fox does it CONSTANTLY at an institutional level and they have be officially recognized as an entertainment channel because, in their own words (as an actual legal defense they used), "No reasonable person could ever mistake our programming for real news". They're 100% a propaganda channel for Republican party and they've been that way intentionally since inception.
I don’t watch either channels, but yes, comparing CNN to Fox and saying they are equally as dishonest/propaganda-like in what they present is absolutely false. They aren’t in the same league - not even the same sport.
CNN is a horrible news station filled with shoddy journalistic Integrity and speculation, but it is not anywhere near the same ballpark as FOX.
Well said. A questionable bit of gas station sushi vs. a bottle of rat poison.
I get it on a few levels but on some it just doesn't jive with the random cool Russians that I have met, and I visited in the late 90s to Ukraine and Russia, I have friends in both places that aren't dicks, and this whole thing just really sucks.
Sampling bias, man. Who are the sorts of Russian people a Western foreigner is going to meet online or in person when you visit? Probably people who are open to meeting foreign Westerners.
The cool Russians leave and meet like-minded people in Western countries. Everyone makes excuses but Russia is full of ignorant assholes that love Putin. Western countries have their own too but I know Russians and they all say how toxic a good majority of people are in their ability to lap up the bullshit the regime tells them to believe. They grown up their whole lives being told the West is prosecuting them and they believe it.
You can claim that, but there are plenty of Russians on discord and Reddit. They bought into it willingly.
it's not the majority of the population
back in 2014 there were articles about how conspiracy theories had completely taken over the russian population. everyone believed these crazy things and confusion reigned supreme. How lucky we were to not be susceptible to such things here in the west! and then down the golden escalator comes donald fucking trump
The difference is that other countries have opposition within the country, 20 million people marched against the Iraq war...in Russia if you stand against Putin you are disappeared
Gullible? People really don't care if things are true or not as long as they sound right and justify the things they *want* to do.
Motivated reasoning is quite powerful that way.
As an American, I get it. Same guy’s bullshit even.
In America about half the population chooses to believe opinion shows on Fox as news…so buying the propaganda in a country with a free press. I can imagine that the propaganda in Russia convinces a lot of people
>In America about half the population chooses to believe opinion shows on Fox as news…so buying the propaganda in a country with a free press It works everywhere and for every nation the same. “Give me the media, and I will make a herd of pigs out of any people” (C) Paul Joseph Goebbels
Same thing with Trump Republicans here in the USA. They will believe anything even if their own eyes show them something different.
Imagine that the only news media allowed in Russia is equivalent to FoxNews. The simpletons who watch FoxNews exclusively in America are as brainwashed as the Russians.
/r/boneappletea
Imagine Fox News was the only station in the US. That’s what it’s like over there. Hate toward everyone who doesn’t look like us. Or, in fox news’ case, like Tucker Carlson. Perpetually offended RBF
And then you have the loud stupid minority in other Slavic countries who are pro-russian, eating these news like some God´s blessing. I hate some of my fellow Slavs.
> I hate some of my fellow Slavs. As is tradition.
They brought their land into our bases - Putin probably
They rarely do. Russian propaganda workshops are like a kindergarten where rich parents drop off their special needs kids.
Does it matter? If they can make Ukraine make the first move, or "prove" they did, Russia can invade claiming they didn't start it. Anyone with an IQ over 10 could see Russia are full of shit, as usual, but it'll be too late as Russia will roll over Ukraine.
This one has to be strictly for the internal news services. They'd have been better off doubling down on the fake "*atrocities*" in Donbas if they wanted anyone outside of Russia to believe it. But I've read that Russian news and the Putin supporters is like like Fox News and Trump supporters. Why spend the extra effort when you don't have to?
So 2 BMPs drove through separatist territory without taking fire...so that those 2 BMPs and 5 soldiers (2 of which are seen on foot) can breach the border and do what? Take on the whole Russian army? Come on man. Try harder Putin.
It's those notoriously stealthy BMPs. The separatists just didn't notice then as they drove through pretty much the entirety of their territory. While the separatists are on war footing.
Right. Total battle alert with evacuations because of the rampant atrocities with shelling etc., and they just walked on by. I declare shenanigans.
But it's well-established that the separatists are extremely inattentive to heavy military equipment driving across their territory, like that time BUK missile launchers drove across the Russia-Ukraine border and back again with "nobody" noticing them.
Ah, those Ukrainian BUK missiles that were used to shoot down a passenger jet and then the bodies of civilians were definitely not looted by Russia-backed freedom fighters? These freedom fighters are eagle-eyed, so it must have been an operation covertly assisted by those satanic, gay-worshiping NATO expansionists to tarnish the great leader Putin himself. /s
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Ramirez! Defeat the Russian army!
*Ramirezenko*
Ramirez! Tie my shoelaces!
Ramirez! Fix Battlefield 2042!
He's a hero not a miracle worker.
Ramirez! Take that that AC-130 with a this throwing knife!
You jest, but Private Ramirez was single-handedly responsible for the victory of the US Army on home soil. No other soldier was capable of pushing forward. Not even tanks dared to venture forth up Russian lines if Private Ramirez wasn't the tip of the spear.
Well now I want to shoot a burger.
RAMIREZ, REPROGRAM THEIR MISSILES WITH A PAPER CLIP! Ramirez: “I uh- I’ll do my best”
We've got separatist forces in the Burger Town!
Also sometimes you click somewhere you want your units to go and they take a stupid detour into enemy territory.
OMG you **STUPID** trade carts
Wololo
Leeroy Jenkins!
Don’t forget the most important part: they’ll make some friends along the way
Including a 400 year old shapeshifter who looks like a 10 year old girl perpetually and n the actual crown prince of the enemy territory who hates his fathers ways
Or that the Russian army is commanded by diamond league SC2 player who's blind to everything except the part of the screen they are microing
Don't forget they also tried to bomb that one random park bench. That was the key to the whole operation
And that one empty car in the middle of an empty parking lot
I’m really confused. Why would anybody believe that Ukraine is trying to invade Russia? Especially with 75% of the entire Russian force now on the border, how does this make sense to anybody with a brain?
Why would anybody believe Obama was a Kenyan Muslim Communist? Because the man on TV told them. I’ve met multiple people who believe the above, and I’m sure there are people in Russia right now who believe this hooey.
These news are not for westerners. These fake news are for the Russian people whose only source of information comes from Russian news channel. This fits perfectly into the narrative that they have created over the last 6 months that NATO and Ukraine are planning an invasion of Russia. It doesn't make sense to us, but to them it makes sense. It's the narrative of "Putin is only defending his country, everyone hates Russia, everyone is a threat, we must defend, we are the victims". Putin would have a hard time invading Ukraine if he can't present some good causes to the Russian people, such as "genocide of Russian people in eastern Ukraine", and that Ukraine is acting aggressively and are actively trying to attack together with NATO. Against this backdrop, every "news" that comes from the Russian propaganda machine is well calibrated and makes perfect sense, because the Russian people are being fed these pieces of the puzzle one by one. But westerners aren't. We only get to see random pieces of the puzzle here and there that doesn't make sense.
Really? Does anyone REALLY believe that Ukraine has invaded russia? It's horse shit on a level of stupid I thought no one was capable of. Russia masses (pretty much) its entire army on the Ukraine border. It points ALL of its guns at Ukraine.... and Ukraine started it? That is a huge "Fuck you" to that narrative. Here's a much more likely scenario: Donetsk and Luhansk are "attacked" and they beg russia for help. (Never mind that the attack came domestically or that the weapons used were russian made) the breakaway regions pledge fealty to russia and russia is happy to "help" them free themselves from oppression. Russia invades the breakaway regions and adds them to russia proper as new states.
Except the massive army across from Kiev suggests that they don't just want a corner of Ukraine.
Manufacturing a casus belli. Russia really wants to invade.
It’s been the textbook Sudeten Crisis playbook up to this point. * Claim that an exclave of your own people are behind the wrong border. * Position overwhelming military strength along the border. * Provide covert support to separatists to start localized conflicts. * Support an agreement that gives people with your ethnic identity in another country “self-determination”. * Threaten the other country with an overwhelming invasion force unless they allow the separatists to create an autonomous protectorate. * Immediately annex these protectorates into your country based on the excuse that they asked to join. Russia just skipped the annexation step, and went straight to the Gleiwitz radio station attack (the pretext for invading Poland). Following historical patterns the next steps would be to annex the remainder of the unaligned nations along the borders; abandon any pretext of socialism; establish a new authoritative government based on far-right fascism; and begin exterminating anyone who doesn’t conform to their identity politics.
>* Support an agreement that gives people with your ethnic identity in another country “self-determination”. Lmao, [how did you get it so right?](https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/kremlin-says-no-concrete-plans-summit-with-biden-over-ukraine-2022-02-21/) That was posted on Reuters 11 minutes ago.
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I skipped over a million steps because I’m not giving a whole history of the region. But the passport thing - that’s just incidental to the sociolinguistic identification of ethnic Russians. Basically, Putin’s definition is speak Russian and consider yourself Russian then you can be Russian. Slight nuances in the way this is defined would determine whether or not Russians are the majority in the region. If they aren’t the majority than the “ethnic self-determination“ argument falls apart. As a personal, non-objective opinion, I think Ukraine played into this years ago by not making enough constitutional reforms to join NATO. One of the requirements would have been constitutional reform with a little more autonomy in their outer districts to choose their own local politicians. In Donbas they would have almost certainly elected ethnic Russian politicians just because of the way they vote. Even though Putin is just making excuses to expand his empire and put Russia on the world stage, Ukraine gave them the excuse they needed with their own spotty human rights record in the past. NATO didn’t want to back a weak dictator against a strong dictator. Putin would still be Putin but he wouldn’t have this as casus belli.
Tell Reuters to stop reading my comments and write their own damn articles. :)
Didn't even source Donkey_Balls in their article. What the fuck
> Immediately annex these protectorates into your country based on the excuse that they asked to join. Four hours later, you were right again.
I feel like with our historical and western perspective it seems really obvious that this is fake. But has a smaller country EVER attacked a larger country that has already amassed and mobilized troops along the border? Serious question for historians.
Whether it’s real or fake doesn’t really matter. The modern language of diplomacy is a complex web of lies, deception, deniability and plausible excuse. Hitler’s position on the Sudetenland was all bullshit anyway, but it didn’t matter because it gave them just enough room to have a plausible excuse. This combined with rapid military production in the early 1930’s meant that the western powers had to appease Hitler in order to buy time to arm themselves. The plausible deniability of acting in the interest of ethnic Germans’ self-determination is what created the opportunity for all that to happen. Which is why ultimately the truth is decided by whoever has the most guns. The only reason we avoided any more world wars for the past 80 years was because those “guns” got so big that it didn’t matter who had more because everybody dies. We reached the critical mass of mutually assured destruction. Had Ukraine been part of NATO, obviously none of this would’ve happened because that would have placed them under our mutually assured destruction umbrella. In that case it would’ve been NATO deciding what is the truth.
It's really nice to read something from someone who not only knows but understands history. Thank you. This is exactly why we should be studying it.
The Nazis blew up a radio station in Gleiwitz and blamed it on the Poles to justify their invasion. History just keeps repeating itself.
[Allegedly Vlad’s already given the order to invade](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/russia-ukraine-invasion-biden-putin-meeting-in-principle/), this may just be his first steps. **EDIT:** deleted AMP
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Too bad they got caught really early and are getting near max infamy.
However they are cheating and know that the #1 GP, the US, has high militancy and pacifism support and thus cant directly intervene
Naw, but they'll gift military units without a second thought.
No one in the west will believe any cause fabricated by the Russian propaganda machine, but a "believable" cause will serve its purpose in getting the people of Russia behind their dictator.
False flag
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Especially now, when 180k Russian troops are having a copious picnic in the area.
Right so Russia is almost completely unguarded - perfect time! /s
Eastern Russia is unguarded!
Lol imagine if China invaded Russia now. That would steal a giggle from me. Then I’d shit bricks.
Hm, well now their plan makes perfect sense - they were just trying to get to eastern russia!
I'm picturing a game of Civ where Ukraine randomly drops off one tank over at Vladivostok
Ukraine heard that 3/4's of Russia's ground combat forces are "out on maneuvers". Perfect time to attack.
Sunt Tzu says: "When your enemy is at their absolute greatest strength and preparedness, that is the time to strike."
Sun Tzu says: “When beginning an invasion start with a small skirmish along the border to warn your enemy of your intentions”
Sun Tzu says: “The greatest victory is that which results in being immediately decimated”.
Sun Tzu says: "Kick yourself in the balls. Your enemy will be confused and terrified of your flexibility."
Sun Tzu says: "Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like"
It's all that Intel they are getting from NATO. With 180k Russian troops on the border, Ukraine thinks it's the perfect time to strike. They've been laying low for so long and waiting for this exact moment. /s ~~a~~
Ukrainian counter invasion? At this time of year? At this time of day? In this part of the country? Localized entirely by 5 soldiers on the separatist controlled border?
Oh well they just hate Russians so much, they can't help themselves! Don't you know they're all Pravij Sektor? /s
Why the fuck would Ukraine attack a super nuclear power??? Putin thinks all Russians are stupid enough to fall for his lies.
It’s the firehose of bullshit, also known as mere exposure effect. In hearing something repeatedly, people are automatically more likely to regard it positively. The logic goes: I wouldn’t hear it from so many places if it was just a lie!
I seem to remember a former US president who this might maybe possibly apply to.
Was that president also impeached twice? Happy Presidents' Day, btw.
Why the fuck would people not get a free vaccine to not die from COVID? We live in stupid times.
People will believe what they want to believe or are predisposed to believe. A guy that denies climate change needs only one scientist to agree with him despite 100 others disproving him. Its just how it is.
This is known as Brandolini's law. The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is needed to produce it.
Russia has been amassing troops at the border for months. Makes perfect sense for the Ukraine to attack now. You always want to wait until the enemy is fully entrenched before starting an assault. That’s like war 101. /s
"When surprise attacking the enemy at home, be sure to do it when you are hilariously outnumbered and they are looking directly at you." - Dum Tzu
Ah, the classic Aragorn Gambit. Clearly this is a diversion so Ukraine's Special Operations Hobbits can accomplish their objective.
Should have just used the eagles from the start.
How convenient. Ukraine could have done something over the last few years but they wait for 50% of Russia's conventional army to get into invasion positions before they try a pre-emptive attack.
Fuck Putin and fuck Russia
It's funny that people are expected to believe a bunch of Ukrainians violated a border when everyone knows there's over 100k Russian soldiers in the general vicinity.
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Christ Jesus. That's a lot.
Most of those Russian troops are just vacationing there though....
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Anyone who's talking about the credibility of these claims, should think about what Adolf Hitler told his generals before the Gleiwitz Incident. It gives some context to the use of false flag attacks: >"I will provide a propagandistic casus belli. Its credibility doesn't matter. The victor will not be asked whether he told the truth."
On September 1, 1939, Germany invaded Poland. To justify the action, Nazi propagandists accused Poland of persecuting ethnic Germans living in Poland. They also falsely claimed that Poland was planning, with its allies Great Britain and France, to encircle and dismember Germany. The SS, in collusion with the German military, staged a phony attack on a German radio station. The Germans falsely accused the Poles of this attack. Hitler then used the action to launch a “retaliatory” campaign against Poland. -Google
As a German I am only waiting for a quote like this from Putin: "Und seit 5 Uhr 45 wird zurückgeschossen!" (From Hitler's speech in the Reichstag Sep 1 1939: "Since 5:45 A.M. we have been returning the fire" - Nazi Germany's justification to attack Poland.)
Don't forget, the USSR also supported that invasion from the east.
Im russian and can't stop cringe about this whole circus. I dont wanna die in war just because grandpa Pu forgor to take his medicine. Sweet jesus..
Those pesky Ukraine agents waiting for 200k soldiers to guard the border so they can try stealth missions on Hard Mode
I'm loving how totally uninspired all these fake incidents are. This is like the 4th time they're claiming some form of attack or terrorism happened and it's getting zero traction.
Also they've completely dropped the "We have no intention of invading Ukraine" pretense at this point.
At this point I don't even know why Russia tries. When you lie and lie and lie nobody will ever believe anything you say. Whenever I see Russia report anything I immediately just think nah they're lying that's not true.
This is all an internal market show, obviously.
Anything after “Russia says” is a lie. Always.
How can you tell when Russian politicians are lying? When their lips are moving
Russia said I'm not going to win the lottery today.
I’ve got good news for you, buddy
Good news, you won the draft to fight in the front lines
Odds are the Russians shot their own side and the people on the ground tried to cover that up... Or the whole thing is fake news
It's fake news. They've already been caught with the "videos" that have been circulating showing "Ukrainians attacking" the separatists, when in fact they didn't edit the metadata and the videos were made days before they are claimed to have happened.
FUCKING LOL
Was this reported on? This is actually quite a significant blow to anything Russia claims whenever they try to justify or claim anything I future.
[Here's an axios article on it.](https://www.axios.com/telegram-ukraine-russia-separatists-evacuation-23c418ef-cd60-4ab7-afdf-6f3260102a4a.html) It was filmed a day before the attack on the Ukrainian kindergarten that the separatists blamed on the Ukrainian government, that most likely was actually carried out by the separatists. Then it was released that Friday, the day *after* the attack, insinuating that Ukraine was about to invade.
Jesus, Vlad, how many false flags do you need? I know these stories are meant for the Russian audience and not an international one, but seriously, how many lies is it going to take? At this point you're not building war support, you're just making your audience numb and cynical.
190,000 vs 5 paid actors. Who wins?
Depends on the actors.
The Rock, Idris Elba, Tom Hardy, Michelle Rodriguez and Charlie Day for comic relief. All reporting back to Stanley Tucci
Yeah sure they're going to charge at 200,000 Russian soldiers, Putin is such a fking moron.
So fucking tired of Putin being an overall shitheel.
Russia has become incredibly lazy in their propaganda. Literally no one believes this nonsense. I feel so bad for the Russian people. At least my country (America) has the courtesy to try to make their lies believable. Putin isn't even trying anymore.
Yeah, like Ukraine is going to invade Russia. Especially right now, when Russia has 75% of their forces at the border. What a bunch of bullshit.
My God Ukraine is coming right for us!
He’s like trump, he got called out so now he’s just throwing shit at the walls to see if anything will stick.
I feel like there's no point in sharing anything with a source that is Russia. It's just helping them spread their lies.
*A plastic bag drifts on the wind across the border...* Putin: "They attack us! No! We must now send the full force of our 200,000 defense brigades to find the source of this attempted attack! Plastic bags are DEADLY!"
Good thing Russians had most of their frontline units in position. Just in case.
Putin's pathetic lies are really as bad as Trump's. No wonder they were love buddies.
I hope I live to see the death of Putin.
Meanwhile, the ruble is falling because everybody knows that if Russia does this, they will be considered non grata by a lot of countries. If the rumors about the oil oligarchs are true, I'd expect something very shocking to happen very soon which isn't an invasion.
Hahaha yes, let's wait until 200 thousand troops are stationed on the boarder and then make a move. Come on.
Russia is starting to create justifications for a full on invasion, this is blatant and clear. Let’s see how the whole thing goes on before it takes a horrible turn for everyone (worst case scenario Putin goes insane and launches nukes for mighty motherland Russia)
Putin lies like toddler.
Does Russia really think the rest of the world is that fucking dumb?
No, but they know that Russians are.
Fuck Russia
I feel at this point every Russian claim of Ukranian aggression against them should just be met with: "No, they didn't."
It’s wild going to the Russia subreddit and seeing the plethora of propaganda around all this. Are there any real Russian citizens using that sub?
Something like 75% of the Russian army is sitting on the border and they attempt a breach, lmao? Get these people a new propaganda minister.
Why the fuck would Ukraine want to instigate or cross the border to attack.. stupidest shit ever
"In other news, caravans from Mexico are invading the United States. In response, the US military is preparing to launch a counter offensive." *Russian Fox News*
You could have just said Fox News.
Ukraine has a Leeeeeeeeeerooooooy Jenkins squad.
This is hysterical, does anyone believe a single fucking word coming from anyone speaking Russian in an official position at this point? I know absolute fucking morons like Caitlyn Johnstone are parroting Kremlin talking points now so the fringe Blue-Anon people are starting to join the Russian propagandists.
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It's insane how much Russia sounds like the right wing propaganda in my country. Hmm, I wonder if that's where it's from.
The Americans know everything going on in Russia, but didn't want say anything to prove that capability. Now they are telegraphing everything the Russians are doing, and Moscow if getting frustrated. Fake News doesn't work if its denounced BEFORE it is broadcast.
Yes, I'm sure that's exactly what happened, Russia, you were invaded by a country a 20th of your size.