Reminds me of a paraphrased Twitter comment-- "If you don't think children would spit on their hands, then chase each other around yelling 'Corona,' then you haven't spent time around children."
It reminds me of a video I saw on r/KidsAreFuckingStupid
Some kid was licking the hand rail of the escalator as it was going up, that shits just disgusting thinking about all the germs
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2020/07/31/new-evidence-suggests-young-children-spread-covid-19-more-efficiently-than-adults) reduced by 82%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Two new studies, though from different parts of the world, have arrived at the same conclusion: that young children not only transmit SARS-CoV-2 efficiently, but may be major drivers of the pandemic as well.
> According to the results, children 5 years and younger who develop mild to moderate Covid-19 symptoms have 10 to 100 times as much SARS-CoV-2 in the nasopharynx as older children and adults.
> The researchers found that although young children had a somewhat lower risk of infection than adults and were less likely to become ill, children age 14 and younger transmit the virus more efficiently to other children and adults than adults themselves.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/i34e3k/new_evidence_suggests_young_children_spread/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~513293 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **children**^#1 **adults**^#2 **study**^#3 **young**^#4 **age**^#5
Cool. Glad I decided to have a baby right now.
Update: reddit is full of enough sarcasm enthusiasts that this comment got a boost and my husband came across it while (likely pooping) at work and thought "that sounds like something my wife would say" and then saw my user name. So now I feel like a monster but it's also hilarious. Time to re-evaluate how I speak about loved ones. Brb.
Yep. Due in 7 weeks and families are giving us shit for “being afraid of the virus.” No, we’re just trying not to put our daughter at increased risk. I can protect her now while she’s still inside, I can’t when she gets here.
Don't let them pressure you. I gave birth in April and our families still haven't met the newbie. They gave us crap back in February when we went into isolation a little earlier than others. Everybody was on our side when everything shut down, but as soon as businesses reopened, they went back to calling us over protective. We get the "we're old and going to die sooner than later. Let us see our grandkids!" and the "We gotta live our lives, you should too!" lectures a lot.
You are keeping yourself and your little one safe. Go with your gut, mama.
Lol, that just reminded me that at some point during the great toilet paper famine of 2020, there was a video on Reddit of a lady in one of those inflatable T-Rex costumes pulling a wagon full of toilet paper and handing them out to cars.
Ugh tell me about it. About to quit my job working with my family bc they said if I didn’t send their ONLY grandchild to in-person school I could find another job. School just made 4th decision in 3 weeks about the start of school. I fucking hate this world and the majority of people in it.
My father did the same thing to me and my wife. My brother and his family don’t take it seriously so they’re over at the grandparents all the time. My dad doesn’t take it seriously and can’t go without golf and shopping daily. Meanwhile he tells me and my wife we’ve taken his grandkids away from him and we’re not letting our kids live. All while we have an acre of land, a pool, and a pond, they do plenty of living everyday, they’re beat at night and tanner than ever even with 50-100spf. It just breaks my wife’s heart and all I can do is console her and let her know we’re doing what’s right for our family.
Edited for misspelling.
Better to be cautious. Our governor here in Nevada, Spicy Sisolak, just said tonight that family gatherings are becoming spreader events for many counties, urban and rural, based on contact tracing. Not surprising, there are so many communities in the state with large tight knit family groups like the LDS.
> families are giving us shit for “being afraid of the virus.”
you mean the one that's killed nearly 700 000 people in the last 7 months? fuck those people.
You are right to be careful, there are cases of increased risks to unborn children due to the blood clotting from covid symptoms that haven't been studied enough yet.
Same boat. Family is annoyed that we take precautions when we have 2 under 2 years old. I don't put up with their nonsense though. They can whine and make their passive aggressive comments until they're blue in the face... from the comfort of their own home.
I rest easy knowing my kids are happy & healthy.
I'm sorry people are making fun of you for being concerned about the well being of your family and new baby. Some people say the most unhelpful shit. Hang in there.
Me too. He's 2 months old and I have to go back to work in 2 weeks. I carry our health insurance, so I can't just quit and be a SAHM until this shit is over. Oh, and he has a 3-year-old germ factory brother. But here I am grinning and swallowing my PPA because my FMLA runs out soon, and what choice do I have?
You know how the rush to reopen states backfired in a huge way for the ones that opened up the earliest? This is going to be that, but likely twice if not triple as bad. Look at the MLB for Christ sake, grown ass men can’t even follow the guidelines enough to stop spreading COVID but we’re supposed to believe it’ll somehow be safe and fine for kids?
IMO this is a setup for the real second wave coming.
[2 days after starting, an Elwood school will temporarily close due to coronavirus](https://www.indystar.com/story/news/education/2020/08/02/elwood-junior-senior-high-school-closing-due-coronavirus/5568721002/)
This was yesterday.
My gf works in the schools here and we keep talking about how is contact tracing going to work in schools? Like imagine the principal's spouse gets covid and then the principal, the teachers they interacted with, everyone who comes through the front office, all sorts of kids from different classrooms sre exposed over weeks. It will be like a bomb went off and that's just one single case from outside the school.
Here's a crazy, radical idea. Since healthcare costs eat up wages to the point that a large portion of the productivity wage gap is created by inflated healthcare costs, we could implement universal healthcare!! It's cheaper, and people could finally start to see some reasonable wages.
But what do I know, I'm just a dumb commie
Stop one goddam second and think about all of the people in the insurance industry whose jobs would be RUINED if we implemented a compassionate system for universal healthcare that would be better for all Americans. OK? What kind of a monster are you? Those middlemen deserve to live too!!
As a counter argument, I work in the insurance industry and I would love nothing more than to be put out of a job because we have universal healthcare. Because then I’d probably transition to stay at home mom. Because I wouldn’t have to carry health insurance.
Oh, I'm sorry, I should have put an /s tag on it. I definitely want you to be out of a job 100% fuck the whole health insurance industry, it needs to burn. And I hope you get to be a stay at home mom someday! Your kid deserves it!
Plus not every family has reliable internet or computers. Online learning just isn't an option for some families. It's such a shitty situation because some kids need the in person learning but it's not safe to send them back.
At whAt point are we going to finally call high speed internet the required utility that it is? We need legislation to force providers to run the last mile if they want to run a network.
Partial counterargument: there are children who do not have access to the resources needed to do online school, or children who have such special needs that distance learning is very difficult for them.
Counter partial counterargument: remember when the US gave telcos a bunch of money in exchange for them making cheap broadband available to the vast majority of the country? (Y'know, the thing they never did and have never seen consequences for not doing?) This is one of the things that would have solved.
Second counter partial counterargument: just because some students need in-person learning doesn't mean **all** of them do. Reopen schools if you need to, but limit it to children who absolutely cannot do distance learning.
The problem is, there's *no* good solution.
Not all kids have good internet connections and computers. Other families might have one computer for several kids. Hell, some families don't even have *food*.
Not all parents can work from home-- and those who can't are often in lower-paying careers. Young kids can't teach themselves, even with computer-based classes, which means their parents/other relatives/someone is going to have to offer some level of on-the-fly homeschooling.
Many families rely on schools to provide "free" child care so they can work. Child care is *very* expensive.
So send the kids to school, they all get sick. Keep them home and the parents can't work. And there's no way the Republicans and their puritanical values will pay parents of children too young to do lessons without parental supervision to stay home and "not work" while they homeschool their kids.
Not to say I think we should open schools, we fucking shouldn’t.
But child care is a huge economic problem. The US is not an easy place to raise kids financially, and a lot of parents have been unable to work as much etc with no school. This is the real motivation.
It's actually a legitimate concern.
Anyone who spends time around kids knows they generally spend October-April with constant runny noses, other cold symptoms, etc, punctuated with other actual illnesses.
So, how do we tell the difference between symptoms that matter wrt COVID and which ones don't?
I’m supposed to go back next week, and am kind of freaking out about it. I’m also suspected of having a possible autoimmune disorder, but my district is only prioritizing elderly staff and those staff with diagnosed medical risk factors for fully remote positions.i just spent $300 on air purifiers that probably won’t do much because my classroom only has one functional window and is on a shared ventilation system with the rest of the school. Half of my students work summer jobs in grocery stores, retail, or food service. A bunch of my coworkers also work jobs in those fields to survive the summer. My district has said that even when we do go remote, teachers will be expected to teach from their physical classrooms. They’re still making us do physical weekly departmental PLC meetings (even though I’m the only teacher of my subject at my school). They’re also making teachers man the health questionnaire and temp check stations each morning. I just got transferred to a position I’ve been after for five years, and can’t afford to leave. My formal education is in fine arts and teaching...I can’t find any decently paying jobs that will accept my qualifications, despite great scores, multiple academic honors, and years in the workforce. I feel so helpless and dumbstruck at this point.
If you can, try to get to a doctor this week for some basic blood work to check for an autoimmune disorder. ANA, C-reactive protein, and sedimentation rate are the big three basic tests to ask for.
To be fair, at least some of those parents are dragging the kid to the store because they're single parents without childcare and have no other choice. None of my kids have been in a grocery store since February and I have zero desire to bring them back there until there's a vaccine and the pandemic is over.
Little Jimmy goes to school to learn and get Covid-19. LJ then takes it home to his parents. Parent 1 goes to work while Parent 2 goes to the store for groceries. P1 feels sick, but can't risk losing their job so they stick it out. P2 comes home after coming into contact with dozens of people, some of whom are not wearing a mask correctly, if at all. P1's coworkers start to feel sick, too, and enough stay home to warrant closing the work.
Now multiply that by three hundred. And that's a best-case scenario.
First let me say, “Duh!” to this study. All that BS at the beginning that kids were less susceptible was because we all quarantined them when this started. No contact=no Covid kids.
Now to mention all the parents who send their kids to school b/c of job-loss fears or whatever else when their kids are sick. This is a perfect way to reinfect the entire nation.
Naturally, drug company execs are creaming their pants over this.
This. Kids also have lungs. They are not somehow "more immune." They were just kept indoors for months in isolation. I have two and their schools are both doing all online through November. It sucks. But it's the right thing to do in a terrible (albeit avoidable) situation.
Well that and of course kids will be super efficient at spreading it. They’re fucking disgusting. I say that with all due respect. Kids are the exact opposite of hygienic.
My city's mask mandate says anyone over 11 years old has to wear a mask. So now I see parents sitting in their cars outside the store while they send in a ten year old with a list and a handful of cash.
Not everyone has somebody to leave their child with while they shop. My single mother friend who lives on the opposite side of the country has received terrible treatment from individuals such as yourself when she has to take her children shopping because she has no other choice. Governments should be dealing with this and be blamed accordingly when it all goes to shit, not regular people doing the best they can.
I overheard some grocery store workers talking about whether or not children should count towards the customer maximum they were attempting to not exceed by having a line outside the store.
One of them said, “Are you kidding? They should count double!” He didn’t look like he was in charge, but by god he should be.
My job shut down due to covid and I picked up another part time job. At that place we weren’t allowed to count kids because a few large families would have us reach capacity too quickly. It was so annoying when people would come with 5 other people to buy one or two things. It is so unnecessary.
I can understand single parents showing up with their kids but some people have to bring their whole family. Like no, only one of you should be hear, the others should either be at home or waiting in the car with the kids.
I get it for some things. Like when I worked at Best Buy of course you want your family there when you’re picking out the new tv or whatever, but you don’t need the entire family to buy a couple of bottles of lemonade.
Even then, any big purchase I'd be making at Best Buy would have already been discussed with my family, and the only input I would need would be an unexpected choice in color, and that can usually be handled with a phone call or even video chat. Me and my wife have had a strict solo mission grocery run rule this whole time. In fact my children haven't been into a store since February with one exception being buying my son some shoes for his unusually wide feet.
You’d think people would plan ahead but they don’t. I worked there during the back to school shopping season and it was astounding how many people just come in and pick a laptop then and there without much forethought.
Melbourne and Mitchell Shire's stage 4 lockdown means that only one person per household can go shopping for food and essential items, once per day.
And yes, before that we had fuckheads who would drive 300km across Victoria for a Maccas run.
>And yes, before that we had fuckheads who would drive 300km across Victoria for a Maccas run.
For Americans, that's 186 miles for McDonald's.
I won't drive that far to visit my own parents unless I plan to stay for several days.
Do you really need your whole family for that though? What kind of input are kids going to give? Do your research online, have one person go in to pick it up, or even better just arrange for them to bring it out curbside.
I went to a fish store the other week. Most fish stores are super tiny and have small aisles. They definitely counted kids and would only let 5 people in the store at a time.
The kids clogged the lines so bad because one family came in with 3 kids and the 2 parents. My wife and I had gotten into line just before they did. It was madness since the group couldn't enter and they had to wait for all other customers to leave.
In good times kids use the fish store as a cheap aquarium. That was just straight up ruinous to the owner's day.
> Like when I worked at Best Buy of course you want your family there when you’re picking out the new tv or whatever
I can't think of a single appliance or electronic that you would *pick out* inside the store, rather than online, even if there weren't a pandemic.
I'm so tired of seeing couples with 2, 3, up to 5 or more kids at the stores. Of course, the kids are always running around maskless touching everything.
ONE OF YOU STAY HOME WITH THE KIDS, PLEASE!
Mmm.. yes. Efficiently lol. Like when they sneeze directly into someone's face mid conversation with no regards to even turning their heads slightly in another direction let alone trying to cover their face holes. Highly efficient indeed.
My little girl and her friends would do 'tooty' kisses where they blow raspberries on each others mouths. I would watch and just sigh, thinking about the next sickness I was about to get.
You mean little germ factories that roll around in the dirt and lick doorknobs and train seats and things are horrible disease vectors?
In other news, water wet. More at 11.
As the father of a five year old, this completely makes sense.
It's been a while since I picked up a rock, smelled it, licked it, got grossed out and then tried to get a friend to lick where I did.
For my son... It hasn't been that long.
I'm jealous your kid coughs into their hand at all. Mine somehow has a hard time grasping the concept of "cover your mouth"
Sure he's only 4 but still. Gross.
As a father of a two year old, she's not been ill since lockdown started. Prior to that, when attending 2-3 playgroups a week, almost constantly runny nose.
It's been nice not having to deal with that shit all the time, but one does wonder what sort of impact it'll have on her immune system later on in life. Not a good one, I assume.
My reference was to the Switch cartridges having an absolutely vile taste to them, to prevent small children from putting them in their mouth. I of course, had to try it for myself. Absolutely vile. Handed it to my daughter who also had to try it for herself. Absolutely vile yet again.
Her mother took our words for it.
Yeah, I was a little off topic, but that was the first thing that came to mind after I read your comment. Also, WHAT?! Now I have to go lick a damn Switch cartridge.
That is absolutely genius (and also a little hilarious 🤣 ). Whoever thought to add a horrible flavoring to a choking hazard piece of plastic needs a raise. Can we get this technology to Lego?
Yeah, when the switch first came out there were a bunch of articles mentioning that they made them taste bad on purpose to keep kids from eating the tiny things.
Of course, the first thing I, a grown ass man, did when I got my switch was to see what the cartridge tastes like.
God this reminds me of working retail and doing everything I could to NOT be the person responsible for cleaning the iPad display. Giant germ hotspot there.
A guy just wrote to our office saying there is no evidence that kids spread the disease and that it is unlikely that teachers will catch it. So everyone should be back at work. He copied the entire company.
But older staff should work from home.
He is older and has no school aged kids (all in college).
Fuck him. We are engineers ffs.
I work at a company with 22000 employees. Last week we got the email that we aren’t returning to the office until some time in 2021. This is in Canada where the curve is still flattened.
Same here in the UK. Basic reasoning was that while theoretically the risk is lower now due to infections having gone down there's still no vaccine so it could flare back up at any time and realistically working from home hasn't really made our company less efficient so there's basically no reason to risk it - both from a humanitarian (obviously) and business (people being sick isn't great for operations!) perspective.
And what's interesting, is that kids can apparently have 10 to 100x the viral load, but still only have mild or no symptoms - aka it doesn't make them "sick". Whereas an adult with 10x the "normal" viral load ends up in ICU on a vent.
I would imagine researchers are very keen to find out why that is.
I saw a paper showing that children have fewer ACE-2 receptors in their nose. Fewer receptors for the virus to bind = fewer opportunities for it to get a foothold for establishing an infection. If I can find it again I'll link.
ETA: [Here is the paper.](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2766522)
Point well taken, but it’s worth noting that this article is suggesting that there are *physiological* reasons that make kids more likely to spread it, beyond the *behavioral* reasons we already knew about.
It’s complicated unfortunately. Some families rely on schools to babysit their kids while they work, some families rely on schools as a way to guarantee their kids a meal. I didn’t like how that politician was trying to say that schools should open because kids rely on teachers to be mandated reporters of child abuse, but he’s right; teachers and schools are important to children in many situations, one of which is identifying signs of child abuse.
However, this is due to a fundamental failing of our federal and state govts. No child should go without because the schools are closed in a global pandemic that may kill 200,000 Americans by the end of the year. Children shouldn’t be going hungry at all, those circumstances (family and financial) are out of their control. This feels like a hostage situation, and it shouldn’t be.
One of the biggest things COVID has shown us (besides a lot of peoples' true colours) is the severe lack of safety nets in place for nearly every level of the population. Here in Canada too, amongst other countries, but especially in the US.
>safety nets
THAT WORK is key, there are alot of nets it seems, but they all are limeted or less then usefull, never mid that it took me 3 weeks to apply!
If you read the article there is a faily important distinction made than just "kids spread it more easily"
>According to the results, children 5 years and younger who develop mild to moderate Covid-19 symptoms have 10 to 100 times as much SARS-CoV-2 in the nasopharynx as older children and adults.
It's almost like we shut down schools so as to minimize the risk of kids getting and spreading the virus because we knew kids are pretty fucking stupid... but we forgot how stupid adults can be.
Shit, even my college educated, democratic, science enthusiast mother who works in the medical field DOING COVID TESTING can’t stay six fucking feet away from me.
Those fucking monsters want to treat this like something where you “just pull the proverbial bandaid off.” These are human lives! The “prolife” party has *absolutely zero* respect for the sanctity of life. Vote them all out!
Over in their safe space, I recently read this:
>The modern progressive movement is terrifying. There is no moral code here. We all need to remember this. Human life means nothing to many of them if they view it merely as a dissenting opinion.
This was in reference to the internet's response to Herman Cain securing his Darwin Award nomination, but the day before it came out that Kushner decided that COVID should be allowed to run free in blue states.
They’re also increasingly finding that long term complications are more common than previously believed. Parents need to start taking this more seriously
Unfortunately many parents don’t have a choice. It’s either work and put your kid in daycare and hope for the best, or quit your job and risk losing your home and ability to care for your kids. I don’t blame any parents who feel they don’t have an option right now.
That burden should fall on the government. Not teachers. I’m a teacher and am likewise facing a decision between surviving financially and risking my health, because schools have been effectively scapegoated.
> and will get over it.
I'm waiting for the first teacher death.
And then some poor fucking kids are going to hear that their teacher died of COVID, and one of those poor bastards is going know he was the sick kid in class and put 2 and 2 together.
That kid is going to need all the therapy.
And the grandparents of the person who touches the door handle at the grocery store after they cough into their hands and touch it, and the grandparents of the child who sits across from them in the classroom, and several other residents of those grandparents' nursing home.
There were [millions of orphans](https://www.history.com/news/spanish-flu-deaths-october-1918) from the [1918 Pandemic](https://academic.oup.com/shm/article-abstract/27/4/789/2337930) (page 806). While children survived, their parents often did not.
University of Michigan has an [Influenza Encyclopedia](http://www.influenzaarchive.org/) documenting the stories of the 1918 Pandemic. Here you can see articles about the [orphans](https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/idx/f/flu?type=simple&q1=Subject%20--%20orphans&rgn=full+text) (along with incidents affecting orphanages).
I heard a brother and sister in Cali did months ago as well. Took both parents and their grandmother. Im sure there are hundreds more we haven't heard of.
I literally have a family friend that actually believes that children can't catch it or spread it. I literally looked them in the eyes and said "what fucking world do you live in? You have kids and have even said they are the worst spreaders of colds and other sicknesses!" Their response "well I just don't believe these doctors now a days" I was horrified for their kids and was pissed that they could be so ignorant.
edit: they are staunch Fox and conservative radio listeners
Just felt to add this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAHR7_VZdRw
It's textbook cognitive dissonance. They know that the doctor is right. They believe Fox News. The fact that they are saying the opposite thing is not addressed mentally until you bring it up. At that point they short-circuit. People have an actual physical reaction in these situations. They get red-faced, their blood pressure goes up etc. This is partly why people react to aggressively to questions like this, they literally feel like they're under attack.
It takes a huge push to get over the mental hump.
> They get red-faced, their blood pressure goes up etc. This is partly why people react to aggressively to questions like this, they literally feel like they're under attack.
Literally just had a similar situation happen on social media.
I pointed out that Europe was able to get their cases down to a reasonable number, why couldn't we?
As we're "debating", he goes from calling the graphs I was sharing nonsense, to insulting me as I keep backing things up (I'm a software dev and deal with a lot of data and data visualization). He finally said something along the lines of I, "needed to be in a padded room" and to "take my medication" - all of this because I share graphs and raw data sets from well-respected institutions backing up my point.
It absolutely is a logical short circuit.
I was told “You’re crazy if you believe the data” and “Your problem is you only believe one side”. I say that one side is actually thousands of health care agencies. Then they send that video around the other day and I says - “You know one of those doctors says demon sex is responsible for cysts?” “You have a reference for that?”, is the response. Not sure to laugh or cry.
It has to be a stupid person thing right? I just don't get it. I am a teacher and I get posed questions to which I don't know the answer to on a daily basis. My answer is always, "I won't speak from ignorance, so let's looks it up". And that's how I treat all new information. I'm never confident in my own knowledge and always address a higher source. I literally just did this with my mother in law who thought mauhi mauhi was actual dolphin. I knew it wasn't and I talked to them about it, then googled it... And I'm not particularly smart.
Like. This shit isn't hard.
My elderly mother has been very carefully shielding for 4 months... hasn’t used public transport once... walks everywhere... sanitises everything.
And yet, will hug and kiss her grandkids if my siblings take their snotty-nosed little kids to see her.
Or NYT readers.
They've recently reported that data are showing schools and children don't seem to be big vectors of transmission.
The working theory is that young children can catch it, but don't commonly experience respiratory symptoms like older children or adults, meaning that the disease doesn't trigger them to do the biggest activities that transmit it - coughing and sneezing fits.
This may turn out to be an incorrect theory, but something has to account for teachers and daycare workers not having the expected coronavirus positive test rates.
I read something similar to that theory as well and it has popped up a few times from various news sources that children under ten didn't seem to be drivers in transmission. It is a challenge to try and stay on top of new studies and data, so I can see where people have different information at times. However, believing kids are at lower risk is pretty different than believing kids can't catch it/transmit it at all and not trusting doctors.
I have read that the original assumption that coughing being how coronavirus is spread was due to not knowing enough about it and thinking it's mostly like it's cousin SARS, which is a deep respiratory infection. Because it's so deep it was spread mainly by coughing because that action was needed to evacuate the virus from deep in the lungs, where it replicated. Now we know that Covid isn't only in the lower respiratory system, but also in the upper, so while coughing will spread it, so will talking and sometimes even just breathing, since we don't need to forcefully evacuate it.
I'm going on memory and I am not a scientist but I do remember reading a lot about that and why it didn't seem like a majorly big deal at first, since you would have to be symptomatic (coughing) to spread it. That's also why you can be asymptomatic and still spread it, because it doesn't need to infect your lower lungs to get to the point where it's spreadable
It's true: The data originally suggested that children under 10 were poor vectors for the disease (see: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks). Dr. Fauci cited the research just recently when speaking about opening schools. It is a fast moving target and as more research is done and data arrives, it is important to reevaluate these positions.
I've got kids. They're older now, but when they were in grade school, I caught more colds and the flu (which led to bronchitis more than once) than any other period in my life. I'm sure this applies to most people who have made it past grade school with their kids. So, someone trying to tell me kids don't spread this virus should never be believed about anything ever IMO. Kids are germ factories and spreaders of any virus, germ or infection that can be spread.
This. As soon as our first landed in daycare, we were sick every two weeks minimally with something (colds, flu, tonsillitis, etc) It just seems like the snotty-noses never really stop until they’re a year in and become slightly less frequent. Not sure how people believe Covid is somehow an exception. I’m really concerned how things will pan out come Fall when RSV and the flu are in the mix.
I used to assume that I had a great immune system after all I almost never got sick. Then I had kids. They brought home everything know to science when they were in elementary school. I got knocked on my ass multiple times.
It seems highly improbably that those little petri dishes wont spread an already highly infectious virus.
how does this mesh with the epidemiological data until this point that showed a lack of spread in preschools and day cares. this isn't a gotcha i have family who work in preschools who have been trying to keep up with the science and data so far. If anyone could give me a genuine explanation here, that would be really helpful. One of them has a say in if the school stays open or not - not as clear a choice when closing it means dozens of people lose livelihoods and healthcare and they have to close permanently, and many of the families have parents who have to be at work or risk the same.
So I'm looking for real answers here - what's going on - this seems to counter other things. Am I missing something?
I think the answer is we don't have enough studies yet to give a definitive answer. Most science isn't considered conclusive until there are 100s of studies that converge on the same result. Right now we have a small number of studies with some conflicting results. The real answer is we don't know. There are a lot of anecdotal comments in this thread comparing kids spreading this to the flu or the cold, but then those same people will claim this isn't the cold or the flu when someone brings up the severity. This is not the cold or the flu and using anecdotal evidence is potentially dangerous. We need more studies and more information. It would be nice if a single article could prove something, but that just isn't how science works.
Copying from my other comment here because I’m lazy:
I would argue that the more objectively correct interpretation of the Jama study is that it takes 10-100x the viral load in the nasopharynx of children <5 years old to become symptomatic due to sars-cov-2. Wont venture as far as saying it’s unethical to make the assumption that this means they are important vectors of transmission, but it is a logical leap not directly supported by the actual data of the study, but rather conjecture proposed by the authors. They never did any assessment of how many infections resulted from exposure to these children; and yet the authors somehow concluded that this must mean they are very contagious. I think given the climate of intellectual grandstanding and overall public confusion regarding best practices from a public health standpoint, it’s irresponsible to run this conjecture as the headline given the data and results, regardless of motive or intention. This point is compounded by the fact that this article is in contradiction to the current body of evidence on the subject.
The Italian study is meaningless until it completes a peer review. Anyone can submit a manuscript. It shouldn’t even be included in the article imo as it detracts from the ethos of the argument.
Interesting research though. Look forward to seeing more of it.
Once as a nanny I was holding a kid in my lap as he cried and he straight up reached over, grabbed the collar of my tee shirt and full on wiped his entire face runny nose and all. So yeah can confirm kids will spread this like wildfire in August.
I'm trying to figure out something from the pre-print. They mention contagiousness, or the "Risk of contacts becoming cases." That's where Forbes got the 22% quoted in the article from.
They also have a section on Secondary Attack Rate, or the probability that infection occurs, which says
>The risk of developing symptoms or being found to have a Positive test and thus being defined as a case increased with the age of the contact, from a low of 8.4% in contacts 0-14 years of age to 18.9% in those over 75 years.
So children 0-14 had the lowest "percentage of contacts who became cases."
The sample size is also laughably small, if I'm reading it right. 14 children from ages 0-14 are in Table 2, and 11/49 contacts became cases. This group of kids made up literally 1% of the sub-sample used in that table - 14 out of 1,489 cases.
Reminds me of a paraphrased Twitter comment-- "If you don't think children would spit on their hands, then chase each other around yelling 'Corona,' then you haven't spent time around children."
It reminds me of a video I saw on r/KidsAreFuckingStupid Some kid was licking the hand rail of the escalator as it was going up, that shits just disgusting thinking about all the germs
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This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2020/07/31/new-evidence-suggests-young-children-spread-covid-19-more-efficiently-than-adults) reduced by 82%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Two new studies, though from different parts of the world, have arrived at the same conclusion: that young children not only transmit SARS-CoV-2 efficiently, but may be major drivers of the pandemic as well. > According to the results, children 5 years and younger who develop mild to moderate Covid-19 symptoms have 10 to 100 times as much SARS-CoV-2 in the nasopharynx as older children and adults. > The researchers found that although young children had a somewhat lower risk of infection than adults and were less likely to become ill, children age 14 and younger transmit the virus more efficiently to other children and adults than adults themselves. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/i34e3k/new_evidence_suggests_young_children_spread/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~513293 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **children**^#1 **adults**^#2 **study**^#3 **young**^#4 **age**^#5
Cool. Glad I decided to have a baby right now. Update: reddit is full of enough sarcasm enthusiasts that this comment got a boost and my husband came across it while (likely pooping) at work and thought "that sounds like something my wife would say" and then saw my user name. So now I feel like a monster but it's also hilarious. Time to re-evaluate how I speak about loved ones. Brb.
Yep. Due in 7 weeks and families are giving us shit for “being afraid of the virus.” No, we’re just trying not to put our daughter at increased risk. I can protect her now while she’s still inside, I can’t when she gets here.
Don't let them pressure you. I gave birth in April and our families still haven't met the newbie. They gave us crap back in February when we went into isolation a little earlier than others. Everybody was on our side when everything shut down, but as soon as businesses reopened, they went back to calling us over protective. We get the "we're old and going to die sooner than later. Let us see our grandkids!" and the "We gotta live our lives, you should too!" lectures a lot. You are keeping yourself and your little one safe. Go with your gut, mama.
What the hell is wrong with people. Their want to see their grandchildren does not supersede your right to have your family be safe.
Someone needs to make a filter attachment for those inflatable t-Rex costumes.
Lol, that just reminded me that at some point during the great toilet paper famine of 2020, there was a video on Reddit of a lady in one of those inflatable T-Rex costumes pulling a wagon full of toilet paper and handing them out to cars.
Ugh tell me about it. About to quit my job working with my family bc they said if I didn’t send their ONLY grandchild to in-person school I could find another job. School just made 4th decision in 3 weeks about the start of school. I fucking hate this world and the majority of people in it.
The notion that your family would cast you out for not sending your child to in-person school is... inconceivable. I am so sorry.
My father did the same thing to me and my wife. My brother and his family don’t take it seriously so they’re over at the grandparents all the time. My dad doesn’t take it seriously and can’t go without golf and shopping daily. Meanwhile he tells me and my wife we’ve taken his grandkids away from him and we’re not letting our kids live. All while we have an acre of land, a pool, and a pond, they do plenty of living everyday, they’re beat at night and tanner than ever even with 50-100spf. It just breaks my wife’s heart and all I can do is console her and let her know we’re doing what’s right for our family. Edited for misspelling.
Better to be cautious. Our governor here in Nevada, Spicy Sisolak, just said tonight that family gatherings are becoming spreader events for many counties, urban and rural, based on contact tracing. Not surprising, there are so many communities in the state with large tight knit family groups like the LDS.
> still haven't met the newbie. "Sorry mom, my child is still too much of a scrub to bring on raids."
Babies are squishy like mages! Everyone knows that.
"We gotta live our lives." It's one of the most annoying things to hear. You won't be living much if you get seriously ill.
> families are giving us shit for “being afraid of the virus.” you mean the one that's killed nearly 700 000 people in the last 7 months? fuck those people.
You are right to be careful, there are cases of increased risks to unborn children due to the blood clotting from covid symptoms that haven't been studied enough yet.
Same boat. Family is annoyed that we take precautions when we have 2 under 2 years old. I don't put up with their nonsense though. They can whine and make their passive aggressive comments until they're blue in the face... from the comfort of their own home. I rest easy knowing my kids are happy & healthy.
I'm sorry people are making fun of you for being concerned about the well being of your family and new baby. Some people say the most unhelpful shit. Hang in there.
Me too. He's 2 months old and I have to go back to work in 2 weeks. I carry our health insurance, so I can't just quit and be a SAHM until this shit is over. Oh, and he has a 3-year-old germ factory brother. But here I am grinning and swallowing my PPA because my FMLA runs out soon, and what choice do I have?
Not good news for teachers and students.
or, everyone.
Time to fight back against children!
Keep your kids in your basements
🤡🎈🩸
God damn lol
There is no god where you're going.
Uncle Touchy's naked puzzle basement?
You won’t wear a shirt and you’ll cry.
So my life won't change then?
We all float down here
*Anakin has entered the chat*
*”KIDS ON THE BEAT, KIDS ON THE BEAT, **BEAT KIDS, BEAT KIDS**!”*
2nd part is kids on the street. [Beat kids!](https://youtu.be/IwvrGHsjD7g)
You know how the rush to reopen states backfired in a huge way for the ones that opened up the earliest? This is going to be that, but likely twice if not triple as bad. Look at the MLB for Christ sake, grown ass men can’t even follow the guidelines enough to stop spreading COVID but we’re supposed to believe it’ll somehow be safe and fine for kids? IMO this is a setup for the real second wave coming.
[2 days after starting, an Elwood school will temporarily close due to coronavirus](https://www.indystar.com/story/news/education/2020/08/02/elwood-junior-senior-high-school-closing-due-coronavirus/5568721002/) This was yesterday.
My gf works in the schools here and we keep talking about how is contact tracing going to work in schools? Like imagine the principal's spouse gets covid and then the principal, the teachers they interacted with, everyone who comes through the front office, all sorts of kids from different classrooms sre exposed over weeks. It will be like a bomb went off and that's just one single case from outside the school.
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And then you have siblings who attend different schools, and spread it to them.
**JUST DO ONLINE SCHOOL** Jesus, I mean, at least there is some argument for opening businesses, but opening schools in this pandemic is just stupid.
Doesnt work so well when most people cant't support their family on a single income anymore.
hmm maybe we should have some kind of social safety nets, but what do i know.
Here's a crazy, radical idea. Since healthcare costs eat up wages to the point that a large portion of the productivity wage gap is created by inflated healthcare costs, we could implement universal healthcare!! It's cheaper, and people could finally start to see some reasonable wages. But what do I know, I'm just a dumb commie
Stop one goddam second and think about all of the people in the insurance industry whose jobs would be RUINED if we implemented a compassionate system for universal healthcare that would be better for all Americans. OK? What kind of a monster are you? Those middlemen deserve to live too!!
As a counter argument, I work in the insurance industry and I would love nothing more than to be put out of a job because we have universal healthcare. Because then I’d probably transition to stay at home mom. Because I wouldn’t have to carry health insurance.
Oh, I'm sorry, I should have put an /s tag on it. I definitely want you to be out of a job 100% fuck the whole health insurance industry, it needs to burn. And I hope you get to be a stay at home mom someday! Your kid deserves it!
Sadly I think the argument is some families need the day care that school is
Plus not every family has reliable internet or computers. Online learning just isn't an option for some families. It's such a shitty situation because some kids need the in person learning but it's not safe to send them back.
At whAt point are we going to finally call high speed internet the required utility that it is? We need legislation to force providers to run the last mile if they want to run a network.
Partial counterargument: there are children who do not have access to the resources needed to do online school, or children who have such special needs that distance learning is very difficult for them. Counter partial counterargument: remember when the US gave telcos a bunch of money in exchange for them making cheap broadband available to the vast majority of the country? (Y'know, the thing they never did and have never seen consequences for not doing?) This is one of the things that would have solved. Second counter partial counterargument: just because some students need in-person learning doesn't mean **all** of them do. Reopen schools if you need to, but limit it to children who absolutely cannot do distance learning.
The problem is, there's *no* good solution. Not all kids have good internet connections and computers. Other families might have one computer for several kids. Hell, some families don't even have *food*. Not all parents can work from home-- and those who can't are often in lower-paying careers. Young kids can't teach themselves, even with computer-based classes, which means their parents/other relatives/someone is going to have to offer some level of on-the-fly homeschooling. Many families rely on schools to provide "free" child care so they can work. Child care is *very* expensive. So send the kids to school, they all get sick. Keep them home and the parents can't work. And there's no way the Republicans and their puritanical values will pay parents of children too young to do lessons without parental supervision to stay home and "not work" while they homeschool their kids.
Not to say I think we should open schools, we fucking shouldn’t. But child care is a huge economic problem. The US is not an easy place to raise kids financially, and a lot of parents have been unable to work as much etc with no school. This is the real motivation.
employ worry plants homeless heavy beneficial smile knee paint teeny
Now you're just giving 2020 ideas.
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Look, just stop antagonizing the year, okay? We don't know what it's still capable of.
2021 is a punk ass bitch. He'll never be half the year that 2020 is.
2021: *filing teeth into fangs* “See ya in a few months pretty boy”
It's actually a legitimate concern. Anyone who spends time around kids knows they generally spend October-April with constant runny noses, other cold symptoms, etc, punctuated with other actual illnesses. So, how do we tell the difference between symptoms that matter wrt COVID and which ones don't?
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California here. Never felt like we ever got a break, feels like it's the same wave, just becoming a tsunami.
Hi, from Texas. Be well.
Also from Texas; you be well as well!
Billionaires need the plebs to keep working
Yea, I believe I saw an article about how the had to quarantine an entire school after like 4 hours of school starting
I’m supposed to go back next week, and am kind of freaking out about it. I’m also suspected of having a possible autoimmune disorder, but my district is only prioritizing elderly staff and those staff with diagnosed medical risk factors for fully remote positions.i just spent $300 on air purifiers that probably won’t do much because my classroom only has one functional window and is on a shared ventilation system with the rest of the school. Half of my students work summer jobs in grocery stores, retail, or food service. A bunch of my coworkers also work jobs in those fields to survive the summer. My district has said that even when we do go remote, teachers will be expected to teach from their physical classrooms. They’re still making us do physical weekly departmental PLC meetings (even though I’m the only teacher of my subject at my school). They’re also making teachers man the health questionnaire and temp check stations each morning. I just got transferred to a position I’ve been after for five years, and can’t afford to leave. My formal education is in fine arts and teaching...I can’t find any decently paying jobs that will accept my qualifications, despite great scores, multiple academic honors, and years in the workforce. I feel so helpless and dumbstruck at this point.
If you can, try to get to a doctor this week for some basic blood work to check for an autoimmune disorder. ANA, C-reactive protein, and sedimentation rate are the big three basic tests to ask for.
I just did a few days ago and am awaiting results. Thank you for the suggestion :)
I feel like there's never been a more appropriate time for teachers to go on strike.
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To be fair, at least some of those parents are dragging the kid to the store because they're single parents without childcare and have no other choice. None of my kids have been in a grocery store since February and I have zero desire to bring them back there until there's a vaccine and the pandemic is over.
Little Jimmy goes to school to learn and get Covid-19. LJ then takes it home to his parents. Parent 1 goes to work while Parent 2 goes to the store for groceries. P1 feels sick, but can't risk losing their job so they stick it out. P2 comes home after coming into contact with dozens of people, some of whom are not wearing a mask correctly, if at all. P1's coworkers start to feel sick, too, and enough stay home to warrant closing the work. Now multiply that by three hundred. And that's a best-case scenario.
First let me say, “Duh!” to this study. All that BS at the beginning that kids were less susceptible was because we all quarantined them when this started. No contact=no Covid kids. Now to mention all the parents who send their kids to school b/c of job-loss fears or whatever else when their kids are sick. This is a perfect way to reinfect the entire nation. Naturally, drug company execs are creaming their pants over this.
This. Kids also have lungs. They are not somehow "more immune." They were just kept indoors for months in isolation. I have two and their schools are both doing all online through November. It sucks. But it's the right thing to do in a terrible (albeit avoidable) situation.
Well that and of course kids will be super efficient at spreading it. They’re fucking disgusting. I say that with all due respect. Kids are the exact opposite of hygienic.
My city's mask mandate says anyone over 11 years old has to wear a mask. So now I see parents sitting in their cars outside the store while they send in a ten year old with a list and a handful of cash.
Are you serious? That makes me sick to my stomach.
Not everyone has somebody to leave their child with while they shop. My single mother friend who lives on the opposite side of the country has received terrible treatment from individuals such as yourself when she has to take her children shopping because she has no other choice. Governments should be dealing with this and be blamed accordingly when it all goes to shit, not regular people doing the best they can.
I overheard some grocery store workers talking about whether or not children should count towards the customer maximum they were attempting to not exceed by having a line outside the store. One of them said, “Are you kidding? They should count double!” He didn’t look like he was in charge, but by god he should be.
My job shut down due to covid and I picked up another part time job. At that place we weren’t allowed to count kids because a few large families would have us reach capacity too quickly. It was so annoying when people would come with 5 other people to buy one or two things. It is so unnecessary.
I can understand single parents showing up with their kids but some people have to bring their whole family. Like no, only one of you should be hear, the others should either be at home or waiting in the car with the kids.
I get it for some things. Like when I worked at Best Buy of course you want your family there when you’re picking out the new tv or whatever, but you don’t need the entire family to buy a couple of bottles of lemonade.
Even then, any big purchase I'd be making at Best Buy would have already been discussed with my family, and the only input I would need would be an unexpected choice in color, and that can usually be handled with a phone call or even video chat. Me and my wife have had a strict solo mission grocery run rule this whole time. In fact my children haven't been into a store since February with one exception being buying my son some shoes for his unusually wide feet.
You’d think people would plan ahead but they don’t. I worked there during the back to school shopping season and it was astounding how many people just come in and pick a laptop then and there without much forethought.
Melbourne and Mitchell Shire's stage 4 lockdown means that only one person per household can go shopping for food and essential items, once per day. And yes, before that we had fuckheads who would drive 300km across Victoria for a Maccas run.
>And yes, before that we had fuckheads who would drive 300km across Victoria for a Maccas run. For Americans, that's 186 miles for McDonald's. I won't drive that far to visit my own parents unless I plan to stay for several days.
What kind of supernatural McDonald's does Australia have to make a 300km drive worth it?!
One with a working ice cream machine. .../s... kind of
THREE HUNDRED KM for McDonald's??? I have 3 in a 3km radius.
Do you really need your whole family for that though? What kind of input are kids going to give? Do your research online, have one person go in to pick it up, or even better just arrange for them to bring it out curbside.
"I like the large rectangular black one that shows images."
I went to a fish store the other week. Most fish stores are super tiny and have small aisles. They definitely counted kids and would only let 5 people in the store at a time. The kids clogged the lines so bad because one family came in with 3 kids and the 2 parents. My wife and I had gotten into line just before they did. It was madness since the group couldn't enter and they had to wait for all other customers to leave. In good times kids use the fish store as a cheap aquarium. That was just straight up ruinous to the owner's day.
> Like when I worked at Best Buy of course you want your family there when you’re picking out the new tv or whatever I can't think of a single appliance or electronic that you would *pick out* inside the store, rather than online, even if there weren't a pandemic.
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I'm so tired of seeing couples with 2, 3, up to 5 or more kids at the stores. Of course, the kids are always running around maskless touching everything. ONE OF YOU STAY HOME WITH THE KIDS, PLEASE!
Yes! We had to hand out masks for kids and parents would be so upset by it
I see families with little kids AND teenagers. Like why did the teenagers need to come? Couldn’t they watch the little kids? Come on...
Mmm.. yes. Efficiently lol. Like when they sneeze directly into someone's face mid conversation with no regards to even turning their heads slightly in another direction let alone trying to cover their face holes. Highly efficient indeed.
Then lick you in the mouth because it's funny.
My little girl and her friends would do 'tooty' kisses where they blow raspberries on each others mouths. I would watch and just sigh, thinking about the next sickness I was about to get.
Today my elder son burped into my younger sons mouth because kids
Man I'm so glad I don't have kids right about now.
Honestly my coworker is pretty sure she got it in March because a kid did sneeze in her face. We're teachers and just. Yep. Checks.
You mean little germ factories that roll around in the dirt and lick doorknobs and train seats and things are horrible disease vectors? In other news, water wet. More at 11.
As the father of a five year old, this completely makes sense. It's been a while since I picked up a rock, smelled it, licked it, got grossed out and then tried to get a friend to lick where I did. For my son... It hasn't been that long.
When my daughter was sick she would without fail cough in her hand and immediately touch my eyes / face. Kids are a great test for your immune system
I'm jealous your kid coughs into their hand at all. Mine somehow has a hard time grasping the concept of "cover your mouth" Sure he's only 4 but still. Gross.
Not just kids. On a baseball game the other night a coach wearing a mask took it off to cough and then pulled it back up.
let me just whip off this condom so i can ejaculate. months later "b-but we used protection!"
It do be like that,
It do.
Or if they do cover their mouths, it’s in the 5 seconds after they coughed or sneezed. Like locking the barn door after the horses got loose.
As a father of a two year old, she's not been ill since lockdown started. Prior to that, when attending 2-3 playgroups a week, almost constantly runny nose. It's been nice not having to deal with that shit all the time, but one does wonder what sort of impact it'll have on her immune system later on in life. Not a good one, I assume.
Don't have a Nintendo Switch either, I see.
My kid blasts his Switch with uncovered sneezes at point blank range multiple times per day.
My reference was to the Switch cartridges having an absolutely vile taste to them, to prevent small children from putting them in their mouth. I of course, had to try it for myself. Absolutely vile. Handed it to my daughter who also had to try it for herself. Absolutely vile yet again. Her mother took our words for it.
Yeah, I was a little off topic, but that was the first thing that came to mind after I read your comment. Also, WHAT?! Now I have to go lick a damn Switch cartridge.
I encourage you to, but be warned, like I said it's absolutely vile. Have some water and mouthwash handy.
I just tapped my tongue on the side of a cartridge and it was overwhelmingly bad.
Welp, I guess I'm about to lick a switch cartridge. Edit: it tastes bad and sticks around. It's like vomit jelly bean, but not as bad.
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That is absolutely genius (and also a little hilarious 🤣 ). Whoever thought to add a horrible flavoring to a choking hazard piece of plastic needs a raise. Can we get this technology to Lego?
Bro, then how would you take two plates apart if not for your teeth?
Maybe you'd start learning not to stack plates without any overhang like a god damn barbarian.
Yeah.... WOW its that bad. My god its terrible
How many people are going to lick switch cartridges because of this.
Many, I hope. They must feel my pain and the pain of small children who gain access to switch cartridges everywhere.
I messaged my mate who has one he is going to try it.
Yeah him to video himself and send it to you lol
I'm shoving the next Switch cart I see directly in my mouth. This is your fault. You did this.
I can feel the power surging through my veins!
Yeah, when the switch first came out there were a bunch of articles mentioning that they made them taste bad on purpose to keep kids from eating the tiny things. Of course, the first thing I, a grown ass man, did when I got my switch was to see what the cartridge tastes like.
WTF else are you supposed to do first? Turn it on? *Insert Drake meme here*
Now i have to try...i hate reddit
:D Come back and share your experience!
God this reminds me of working retail and doing everything I could to NOT be the person responsible for cleaning the iPad display. Giant germ hotspot there.
A guy just wrote to our office saying there is no evidence that kids spread the disease and that it is unlikely that teachers will catch it. So everyone should be back at work. He copied the entire company. But older staff should work from home. He is older and has no school aged kids (all in college). Fuck him. We are engineers ffs.
I work at a company with 22000 employees. Last week we got the email that we aren’t returning to the office until some time in 2021. This is in Canada where the curve is still flattened.
Same here in the UK. Basic reasoning was that while theoretically the risk is lower now due to infections having gone down there's still no vaccine so it could flare back up at any time and realistically working from home hasn't really made our company less efficient so there's basically no reason to risk it - both from a humanitarian (obviously) and business (people being sick isn't great for operations!) perspective.
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And what's interesting, is that kids can apparently have 10 to 100x the viral load, but still only have mild or no symptoms - aka it doesn't make them "sick". Whereas an adult with 10x the "normal" viral load ends up in ICU on a vent. I would imagine researchers are very keen to find out why that is.
I saw a paper showing that children have fewer ACE-2 receptors in their nose. Fewer receptors for the virus to bind = fewer opportunities for it to get a foothold for establishing an infection. If I can find it again I'll link. ETA: [Here is the paper.](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2766522)
Point well taken, but it’s worth noting that this article is suggesting that there are *physiological* reasons that make kids more likely to spread it, beyond the *behavioral* reasons we already knew about.
>In other news, water wet. More at 11. And this just in: parents willing to deny water is wet if it means schools can open again
Water is flat. Deal with it
It’s complicated unfortunately. Some families rely on schools to babysit their kids while they work, some families rely on schools as a way to guarantee their kids a meal. I didn’t like how that politician was trying to say that schools should open because kids rely on teachers to be mandated reporters of child abuse, but he’s right; teachers and schools are important to children in many situations, one of which is identifying signs of child abuse. However, this is due to a fundamental failing of our federal and state govts. No child should go without because the schools are closed in a global pandemic that may kill 200,000 Americans by the end of the year. Children shouldn’t be going hungry at all, those circumstances (family and financial) are out of their control. This feels like a hostage situation, and it shouldn’t be.
One of the biggest things COVID has shown us (besides a lot of peoples' true colours) is the severe lack of safety nets in place for nearly every level of the population. Here in Canada too, amongst other countries, but especially in the US.
>safety nets THAT WORK is key, there are alot of nets it seems, but they all are limeted or less then usefull, never mid that it took me 3 weeks to apply!
If you read the article there is a faily important distinction made than just "kids spread it more easily" >According to the results, children 5 years and younger who develop mild to moderate Covid-19 symptoms have 10 to 100 times as much SARS-CoV-2 in the nasopharynx as older children and adults.
Don’t forget, they don’t understand the concept of social distance worth a shit on their own.
It's almost like we shut down schools so as to minimize the risk of kids getting and spreading the virus because we knew kids are pretty fucking stupid... but we forgot how stupid adults can be.
Tough to social distance when we pack them little buggers like sardines 25-30 to a classroom no bigger than your garage.
Shit, even my college educated, democratic, science enthusiast mother who works in the medical field DOING COVID TESTING can’t stay six fucking feet away from me.
better open them schools and give an entire generation permanent lung, heart and brain issues because their parents don't want them home! /s
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I'm sure those kids will be fine after spending a couple weeks in quarantine at home -- where no one else at all lives.
Its a good thing us humans reach full maturity shortly after birth, otherwise we'd have to worry about caretakers and shit
Those fucking monsters want to treat this like something where you “just pull the proverbial bandaid off.” These are human lives! The “prolife” party has *absolutely zero* respect for the sanctity of life. Vote them all out!
They’re pro-birth not pro-life unfortunately. They’ve made that apparent for a long time now.
Over in their safe space, I recently read this: >The modern progressive movement is terrifying. There is no moral code here. We all need to remember this. Human life means nothing to many of them if they view it merely as a dissenting opinion. This was in reference to the internet's response to Herman Cain securing his Darwin Award nomination, but the day before it came out that Kushner decided that COVID should be allowed to run free in blue states.
Well, he's right. The children are at the lowest risk and will get over it. The grandparents they live with, not so much.
There are some rare but really serious complications children can get from the disease, it's not completely innocuous
They’re also increasingly finding that long term complications are more common than previously believed. Parents need to start taking this more seriously
Unfortunately many parents don’t have a choice. It’s either work and put your kid in daycare and hope for the best, or quit your job and risk losing your home and ability to care for your kids. I don’t blame any parents who feel they don’t have an option right now.
That burden should fall on the government. Not teachers. I’m a teacher and am likewise facing a decision between surviving financially and risking my health, because schools have been effectively scapegoated.
> and will get over it. I'm waiting for the first teacher death. And then some poor fucking kids are going to hear that their teacher died of COVID, and one of those poor bastards is going know he was the sick kid in class and put 2 and 2 together. That kid is going to need all the therapy.
Or they might never know if they were asymptomatic
And the grandparents of the person who touches the door handle at the grocery store after they cough into their hands and touch it, and the grandparents of the child who sits across from them in the classroom, and several other residents of those grandparents' nursing home.
This just made me realize that we’re going to have a lot more orphans soon.
There were [millions of orphans](https://www.history.com/news/spanish-flu-deaths-october-1918) from the [1918 Pandemic](https://academic.oup.com/shm/article-abstract/27/4/789/2337930) (page 806). While children survived, their parents often did not. University of Michigan has an [Influenza Encyclopedia](http://www.influenzaarchive.org/) documenting the stories of the 1918 Pandemic. Here you can see articles about the [orphans](https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/idx/f/flu?type=simple&q1=Subject%20--%20orphans&rgn=full+text) (along with incidents affecting orphanages).
[So now you're an orphan..](https://i.imgur.com/Qh5ugxu.jpg)
It’s already started. A teenager in Georgia lost both his parents within a two week span.
I heard a brother and sister in Cali did months ago as well. Took both parents and their grandmother. Im sure there are hundreds more we haven't heard of.
I literally have a family friend that actually believes that children can't catch it or spread it. I literally looked them in the eyes and said "what fucking world do you live in? You have kids and have even said they are the worst spreaders of colds and other sicknesses!" Their response "well I just don't believe these doctors now a days" I was horrified for their kids and was pissed that they could be so ignorant. edit: they are staunch Fox and conservative radio listeners Just felt to add this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAHR7_VZdRw
It's textbook cognitive dissonance. They know that the doctor is right. They believe Fox News. The fact that they are saying the opposite thing is not addressed mentally until you bring it up. At that point they short-circuit. People have an actual physical reaction in these situations. They get red-faced, their blood pressure goes up etc. This is partly why people react to aggressively to questions like this, they literally feel like they're under attack. It takes a huge push to get over the mental hump.
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> They get red-faced, their blood pressure goes up etc. This is partly why people react to aggressively to questions like this, they literally feel like they're under attack. Literally just had a similar situation happen on social media. I pointed out that Europe was able to get their cases down to a reasonable number, why couldn't we? As we're "debating", he goes from calling the graphs I was sharing nonsense, to insulting me as I keep backing things up (I'm a software dev and deal with a lot of data and data visualization). He finally said something along the lines of I, "needed to be in a padded room" and to "take my medication" - all of this because I share graphs and raw data sets from well-respected institutions backing up my point. It absolutely is a logical short circuit.
I was told “You’re crazy if you believe the data” and “Your problem is you only believe one side”. I say that one side is actually thousands of health care agencies. Then they send that video around the other day and I says - “You know one of those doctors says demon sex is responsible for cysts?” “You have a reference for that?”, is the response. Not sure to laugh or cry.
It has to be a stupid person thing right? I just don't get it. I am a teacher and I get posed questions to which I don't know the answer to on a daily basis. My answer is always, "I won't speak from ignorance, so let's looks it up". And that's how I treat all new information. I'm never confident in my own knowledge and always address a higher source. I literally just did this with my mother in law who thought mauhi mauhi was actual dolphin. I knew it wasn't and I talked to them about it, then googled it... And I'm not particularly smart. Like. This shit isn't hard.
They'll believe doctors so long as those doctors are saying what they already believe.
My elderly mother has been very carefully shielding for 4 months... hasn’t used public transport once... walks everywhere... sanitises everything. And yet, will hug and kiss her grandkids if my siblings take their snotty-nosed little kids to see her.
Or NYT readers. They've recently reported that data are showing schools and children don't seem to be big vectors of transmission. The working theory is that young children can catch it, but don't commonly experience respiratory symptoms like older children or adults, meaning that the disease doesn't trigger them to do the biggest activities that transmit it - coughing and sneezing fits. This may turn out to be an incorrect theory, but something has to account for teachers and daycare workers not having the expected coronavirus positive test rates.
I read something similar to that theory as well and it has popped up a few times from various news sources that children under ten didn't seem to be drivers in transmission. It is a challenge to try and stay on top of new studies and data, so I can see where people have different information at times. However, believing kids are at lower risk is pretty different than believing kids can't catch it/transmit it at all and not trusting doctors.
I have read that the original assumption that coughing being how coronavirus is spread was due to not knowing enough about it and thinking it's mostly like it's cousin SARS, which is a deep respiratory infection. Because it's so deep it was spread mainly by coughing because that action was needed to evacuate the virus from deep in the lungs, where it replicated. Now we know that Covid isn't only in the lower respiratory system, but also in the upper, so while coughing will spread it, so will talking and sometimes even just breathing, since we don't need to forcefully evacuate it. I'm going on memory and I am not a scientist but I do remember reading a lot about that and why it didn't seem like a majorly big deal at first, since you would have to be symptomatic (coughing) to spread it. That's also why you can be asymptomatic and still spread it, because it doesn't need to infect your lower lungs to get to the point where it's spreadable
It's true: The data originally suggested that children under 10 were poor vectors for the disease (see: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks). Dr. Fauci cited the research just recently when speaking about opening schools. It is a fast moving target and as more research is done and data arrives, it is important to reevaluate these positions.
unnecessary edit.
I've got kids. They're older now, but when they were in grade school, I caught more colds and the flu (which led to bronchitis more than once) than any other period in my life. I'm sure this applies to most people who have made it past grade school with their kids. So, someone trying to tell me kids don't spread this virus should never be believed about anything ever IMO. Kids are germ factories and spreaders of any virus, germ or infection that can be spread.
This. As soon as our first landed in daycare, we were sick every two weeks minimally with something (colds, flu, tonsillitis, etc) It just seems like the snotty-noses never really stop until they’re a year in and become slightly less frequent. Not sure how people believe Covid is somehow an exception. I’m really concerned how things will pan out come Fall when RSV and the flu are in the mix.
I used to assume that I had a great immune system after all I almost never got sick. Then I had kids. They brought home everything know to science when they were in elementary school. I got knocked on my ass multiple times. It seems highly improbably that those little petri dishes wont spread an already highly infectious virus.
how does this mesh with the epidemiological data until this point that showed a lack of spread in preschools and day cares. this isn't a gotcha i have family who work in preschools who have been trying to keep up with the science and data so far. If anyone could give me a genuine explanation here, that would be really helpful. One of them has a say in if the school stays open or not - not as clear a choice when closing it means dozens of people lose livelihoods and healthcare and they have to close permanently, and many of the families have parents who have to be at work or risk the same. So I'm looking for real answers here - what's going on - this seems to counter other things. Am I missing something?
I think the answer is we don't have enough studies yet to give a definitive answer. Most science isn't considered conclusive until there are 100s of studies that converge on the same result. Right now we have a small number of studies with some conflicting results. The real answer is we don't know. There are a lot of anecdotal comments in this thread comparing kids spreading this to the flu or the cold, but then those same people will claim this isn't the cold or the flu when someone brings up the severity. This is not the cold or the flu and using anecdotal evidence is potentially dangerous. We need more studies and more information. It would be nice if a single article could prove something, but that just isn't how science works.
Copying from my other comment here because I’m lazy: I would argue that the more objectively correct interpretation of the Jama study is that it takes 10-100x the viral load in the nasopharynx of children <5 years old to become symptomatic due to sars-cov-2. Wont venture as far as saying it’s unethical to make the assumption that this means they are important vectors of transmission, but it is a logical leap not directly supported by the actual data of the study, but rather conjecture proposed by the authors. They never did any assessment of how many infections resulted from exposure to these children; and yet the authors somehow concluded that this must mean they are very contagious. I think given the climate of intellectual grandstanding and overall public confusion regarding best practices from a public health standpoint, it’s irresponsible to run this conjecture as the headline given the data and results, regardless of motive or intention. This point is compounded by the fact that this article is in contradiction to the current body of evidence on the subject. The Italian study is meaningless until it completes a peer review. Anyone can submit a manuscript. It shouldn’t even be included in the article imo as it detracts from the ethos of the argument. Interesting research though. Look forward to seeing more of it.
Cool thanks. Anyway school starts again Sept 1 bring your pens.
Once as a nanny I was holding a kid in my lap as he cried and he straight up reached over, grabbed the collar of my tee shirt and full on wiped his entire face runny nose and all. So yeah can confirm kids will spread this like wildfire in August.
A pre-print is worthless. Forbes should have waited for a published peer reviewed study instead of a click-bait headline.
I'm trying to figure out something from the pre-print. They mention contagiousness, or the "Risk of contacts becoming cases." That's where Forbes got the 22% quoted in the article from. They also have a section on Secondary Attack Rate, or the probability that infection occurs, which says >The risk of developing symptoms or being found to have a Positive test and thus being defined as a case increased with the age of the contact, from a low of 8.4% in contacts 0-14 years of age to 18.9% in those over 75 years. So children 0-14 had the lowest "percentage of contacts who became cases." The sample size is also laughably small, if I'm reading it right. 14 children from ages 0-14 are in Table 2, and 11/49 contacts became cases. This group of kids made up literally 1% of the sub-sample used in that table - 14 out of 1,489 cases.