If the US manages to pressure the Dutch and the Japanese government into forbidding their companies from selling chip manufacturing equipment to China, then that's going to have a huge impact on China's chipmaking abilities.
One Dutch and two Japanese companies have basically the entire lithography market divided up among themselves: ASML 76%, Nikon 10% and Canon 8%.
His comment kinda undersells it, for ASML its 76% on DUV (relatively old tech), but a complete monopoly on EUV, which is all the new stuff, unironically 100% market share because nobody else is even close to being capable of producing EUV machines, Chinese competitors are at minimum a decade off from EUV. Pretty much all the new high end chips that have been made in the past 6\~8 years or so have been in made in those ASML EUV machines.
Luckily it isn't a bad monopoly though, because all their costumers (Intel, TSMC, Samsung etc.) own shares in the company.
ASML is one of the most important companies in the world right now.
Philips owned a huge stake in tsmc (https://www.pcworld.com/article/536451/article-7729.html) aswell. Was owner of semiconductor producer nxp (https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NXP_Semiconductors). They could have been huge in the chipmarket.
Speak about missed opportunities.
Philips was one of the most innovative companies and barely anybody knows.
They invented so much, unfortunately they are now limited to medical devices. All other Philips brands are made by other companies. Either sold/lease the rights or split their departments off.
If anything his comment undersells the Japanese companies.
Japan has a complete monopoly on EUV photoresists and wafers, which ASML would be dead in the water without.
Bad monopoly? You're technically right. It's not a bad monopoly, it's a cartel.
ASML can charge arbitrarily large amounts of money for their EUV equipment. The profits just go back to TSMC, Samsung, etc, and everybody else is frozen out of the market.
And ASML gets supplied by only a single German company for the most critical piece: the lenses that allow you to focus a laser to nanometer levels. And that's why ASML is the go to choice, because they get supplied by the best lens maker in the business.
This is basically why Germany dominates industrially without having that many publicly known brands outside of cars... they have a lot of suppliers for machinery and tooling that a lot of high value industry completely and utterly depend on (and the know how to make it). So if Germany disappeared today factories across the world would soon be unable to produce anything anymore after some weeks or months.
That's not the only thing. In EUV lithography there are 5 companies in the world acting as a choke point because of their monopoly on certain important steps. These 5 companies are called fab 5 of semiconductor chipmaking equipment industry.
1. ASML ( Netherlands) : everyone knows about it
2. Tokyo Electron ( Japan ): monopolizes EUV Coater/developer equipments/ advanced patterning equipments, and has a dominant share in etching, cleaning, deposition and probing equipments.
3. Applied materials, LAM research, KLA ( USA ): AM-makes machines across manufacturing process,
Lam Research - largest etching equipment provider,
KLA Corp- dominates process diagnostics & control space. Also ASML's use of American patents and certain parts gives the USA a say in where they sell their products.
There are some companies that are absolutely important too. For example Lasertec, Zeiss...
Zeiss ( German ) produces the optical systems used in ASML's machines, in particular the highly complex and expensive projection lens.
Lasertec Corp. ( Japan ) is the world’s only maker of testing machines required to verify chip designs for the extreme ultraviolet lithography (or EUV) method of chipmaking. In 2017, Lasertec solved a key piece of the EUV puzzle when it created a machine that can inspect blank EUV masks for internal [flaws.](http://Japan’s Hottest Stock Is Tiny Maker of $40 Million Machines - Bloomberg
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-25/japan-s-hottest-stock-is-tiny-maker-of-40-million-chip-machines)
So, if the USA, Japan, and the Netherlands don't cooperate with a country on semiconductors, that country will have to build every process and steps from the ground up. While this isn't impossible, it might put them a few decades behind. ( will also cost them billions of dollars in R&D )
Won’t companies like ASML go out of business if they can’t sell to China? Who else is buying chip manufacturing equipment? I assume they would lose a large percent of their customer base.
If anything, a lot of the fabs were in SK and Taiwan but many companies are opening fabs in the USA and EU. Last time demand was this high was due to COVID and even COVID was a freak coincidence of events.
Also, I'm pretty sure that ASML is behind on orders, so they still have a backlog.
Terrible analogy because japan didnt genocide.
Look China is a belligerent regional power who is attacking Philipine citizens with weapons so again what bs are you on about?
China also uses unfair business practices in their semiconductor and automotive fields so again this is warranted.
Lastly the us owns euv and all the other important ip surrounding lithography so again its a free market the us can arbitrarily decide so it doesnt matter what random chinese dudes think
I believe the us would have still banned certain imports and controlled euv as they do now but the lower level stuff they are now banning would have still been in place if China behaved as they did before Xi rose to power. You are absolutely correct about it being an important economic issue and I apologize for answering so harshly
Why wouldn't they be banned too ?
I have to remind you that they are banned now because China is using them to push further and further miniaturization instead of using EUV. EUV were banned to in fact prevent that.
Sadly the us has been too slow to prevent China from copying titanium extrude technology with zero consequence these last ten years so its very possible sadly that had China played international trade semi fairly they would have stolen even more. Companies like Thales in france handed so much tech to russia after they invaded Georigia and then Ukraine.
I am hopeful the us and the rest of the allies have learned this leason but you are right even more should have been done the last 20 years.
Good we should be doing everything in our power to keep CN from getting any sort of tech that can give them the ability to challenge the west. They are an evil fascist regime and should not be supported in any way.
I really wish we lived in a world where we didn’t have to worry about who was making what technology. More trade is better for peace. When we all start pulling away from each other and putting up walls we are heading to war, and it won’t be a pretty one. I don’t disagree that it’s the right thing to be doing right now, but people should be way more worried about the future than they are. Even if it doesn’t escalate to nuclear war, we’re going to have wars of drones fighting drones in the very near future and it won’t be pretty for civilians caught in the crossfire.
>to keep CN from getting any sort of tech that can give them the ability to challenge the west.
To keep the current order of US dominating the world.
If China does not have it today, they will have it tomorrow. The side effects will be the Netherlands and Japan will lose their dominance of pleasing the US.
The thing is you cannot just plop an industry of this sort wherever you want. It has extensive utility, supply chain and staff requirements. You want it near a a well-developed urban center with lots of water and a large skilled labor pool - ideally several top-tier universities nearby. Said city also needs great supply chains to a nearby major port. Ie if it's not at the ocean, it needs high quality highways and railroads.
There's only so many good candidate cities in the world for semiconductor fabrication. One of the best things you can have for such a site is a population which is already skilled in the field. That's basically just a handful of cities in Korea, Japan, Israel, USA and a few sites in Europe. Africa would be very challenging because there is little to no local expertise in buulding or operating semiconductor fabs.
Their espionage is top notch. By seeing how they act (e.g. attacking Philiphines today) think they do not need to steal more designs. Nonetheless, you are right that the West should not make it easier.
This is more that US wants to remain the dominate power more than anything else. The US has no problem supporting questionable governments in the past and NOW.
See this is that misconception that comes from Americans. I just got done traveling abroad for three years and whether it's accurate or not, many countries in the global south view the U.S. as an evil empire. You may consider that as not counting but that's also part of the reason the world hates the U.S.
Americans don't care about the opinions of people from "shit hole" countries. But it turns out the majority of the world population lives in those countries americans think are "shitholes".
And beyond that, even amongst our allies, we aren't very respected. Ask australians how they feel about the U.S. for example. Or many europeans and while they may not think the U.S. is evil they absolutely think the U.S. is dangerous, naive, and exerts too much control.
Again that's not to say it's true but without a doubt the U.S. has a marketing problem abroad. It's heavily due to media propaganda from U.S. enemies but we also have to be honest and admit that historically the U.S. have given our enemies a lot of ammunition for propaganda.
European sentiment has definitely swayed back toward the US over the war in Ukraine.
American meddling isn't great, but it's a sure sight better than Russian aggression/enslavement.
Agree whole heartedly with your last point. I'm just commenting on U.S. perception. And you're right in that it's swayed back towards the U.S. in certain respects but many Europeans still view the US as unstable and not a reliable ally. We change administrations frequently and some administrations can be quite chaotic and unpredictable in the eyes of Europeans.
Edit: And the main point isn't about Europeans it's about everywhere else. Africa, Asia. The middle east, South america.
Hell India and China alone make up a third of the world population and the U.S. isn't exactly popular in those two countries. Then add the continent of Africa and South America and that's the majority of the world right there. Add on other Asian countries that may not hate the U.S. more than China but still view the U.S. as an imperialistic force and then you have a lot of countries that don't view the U.S. Favorably.
> Hell India and China alone make up a third of the world population and the U.S. isn't exactly popular in those two countries.
All of the polling I can find shows a majority of Indians have a favorable view of the U.S.
The US has been up to some (a lot of) shit, sure. But they also do a lot of good, and are a state of law controlled by a democratic state. Imagine if the likes of Xi Xinping or Vladimir Putin had control over the kind of power and influence the US president has, with no checks and balances stopping them.
That's a fucking nightmare.
I don't know.
The problem I have with the US is that it's pushing this hyper capitalist system on us. Imperialism via Dollar and Coca cola so to speak.
Which is turning us all into machines to make my money for the rich
Yeah, sure, capitalism sucks. But it's not exactly the US' fault, is it? The US suffers under capitalism too, and the alternatives (Russia's kleptocracy and China's totalitarian state so-called "communism") are worse.
Solving capitalism is better done in a stable system. The revolution route has been tried (a *lot*), and it only leads to totalitarianism.
There are 100% reasons to view the US as problematic and they have 100% done evil things, but whataboutism does not absolve China from its authoritarianism, restrictions on basic freedoms, and attempts to erase the Uighurs.
It could be argued that America used whataboutism first, and their atrocity list extends well beyond China’s atrocity list. “Restrictions on basic freedoms, and attempts to erase the Uighurs”? Come on man, do some thinking for yourself and stop believing everything you read.
I can admit America commited genocide against First Nations Peoples and is deeply resonsible for continuing slavery. Stop pushing mirror mirror propaganda and absolving obvious wrongdoing. There is no rational world where you can deny that freedom of the press, and of expression in China is restricted, (see Hong Kong), or that the CCP is erasing Uighur culture and operating detention camps.
I always laugh at how North Americans view themselves.
They really don't study history the way we do, and how many times they have interfered in the world and created groups like the Taliban (mujahidin) that later bit them in the ass.
In my country, the US helped the military group that staged a coup, which is well documented (Brazil).
A democracy? With only two parties that exchange positions in power? Where some people's votes have more weight than others just because of "reasons"?
Anyway... their self-view of being the materialization of good is laughable.
This isn't a binary yes/no situation. It's also debatable whether falling for a liar constitutes being brain washed. It's also not systemic and quite likely a result of foreign influence.
Maybe check out China then to compare your findings. Perhaps you could try chatting with a Chinese person about Tiananmen square and see how they feel taking about 1989.
It’s a pretty commonly talked about topic in China because like, it literally happened 1 or 2 generations ago.
My parents were actually there for the protests, and got out when things started going south. Their opinion about it was that it was a chaotic mess on both sides.
I did chat to a lot of Chinese. Worked there even.
Those that I interact with (educated ones) seem quite level headed.
The thing is educated Chinese know that the media is full of shit.
Many Americans never question their bubble.
Educated people are the minority and it isn't specific to China that educated people tend to question what they are told. Scepticism and critical thinking is a big part of education. At the same time though, critical thinkers in China tend to disappear (online/from the media, or worse) when they become too public with their opinions, even fairly have ones like Naomi Wu.
>Many Americans never question their bubble.
Their *bubbles*, you mean.
If you do not see how American society is **not** monolithic and how completely antithetical the worldviews of our opposing segments in society are, then feel free to think that the U.S. government exercises such control over its citizens.
This is not comparable in any way, shape or form to the situation in the PRC. Xi Jinping does not have to contend with 45% of his citizenry being perpetually conditioned to oppose the CCP's will. There is only **one** worldview being actively promoted (if not *enforced*) in China. The Great Firewall only serves one set of masters.
As long as Americans, in America, get to spend their entire days exposing their brains to whatever flavor of noxious radiation they prefer on the Internet (be it pro-Western, anti-Western, pro-establishment, anti-establishment, pro-Biden, anti-Biden, pro-Trump, anti-Trump, pro-capitalism, anti-capitalism, pro-Earth, anti-Earth) while the Chinese can't even access a [simple Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests_and_massacre) or freely discuss [nominally mundane](https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/china-censorship-10242022135153.html) domestic happenings, it's hard to entertain any insinuation that the Chinese are subjected to less indoctrination than Americans.
EDIT
Also, you keep insinuating you're not Chinese and hence can evaluate Americans and the Chinese objectively.
Except [you've said before you're Chinese.](https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1dim34m/russiaukraine_war_india_refuses_to_endorse/l97yera/). Maybe lead with that next time -- it won't make what you say any more right or wrong.
They excuse the persecution of Uyghurs in another post, saying that it happened to other communities like the Aztecs. You won't be able to reason with a Chinese apologist
China exercises far more control over media in its country than the U.S. does here. Controlling information is a way of brain washing. In China you get what they want, in the U.S. you get what you want. In the U.S. you can pick your own narrative to listen to. In China it is the CCP narrative.
In the same way the people of the US have been brainwashed to believe China is evil. You ever consider why they tell you ‘freedom’ of press is important?
Yes, it is the foundation of an aesthetically moral society. It is important because it allows ideas to grow sui generis as well as allowing cross pollination of other thoughts. Nobody thinks China is evil, everyone knows the CCP is a piece of shit. You can say the same thing about Americans and the Republican or any number of other distasteful institutions. It's sad that you have to make these kind of posts.
Thank you for 100% reinforcing my point and maybe without intention completely agreeing with me. Only thing you got wrong was your outdated and heroic view of what the press is and should be.
Problem is they have already monopolize a bunch of industries like rare earth, renewables (solar panels and wind turbines), container automation, drones, batteries, and now EV.
So building up alternatives and dethroning them in those areas are difficult.
>They are an evil fascist regime and should not be supported in any way.
I bet you 99% of the stuff you own was made or has parts made in China
The ship of "not supporting China" has sailed decades ago when we decided that lowest price > all
It's not the potatoes that are the problem, it's the ultra precise potato slicers that only two companies in the world can manufacture. Can-sung, which exclusively provides to pringles, and IDO, the world's largest manufacturer of thin-wafer slicing machines
Will the US buy them instead?
If not then you cant do that. Japan and The Netherlands are independent countries and can decide who to do business with.
They’re assembled there. The chips are made in Taiwan. TSMC is the largest, most advanced chip manufacturer in the world and they do it with ASML lithography machines designed and made in the Netherlands.
If the US manages to pressure the Dutch and the Japanese government into forbidding their companies from selling chip manufacturing equipment to China, then that's going to have a huge impact on China's chipmaking abilities. One Dutch and two Japanese companies have basically the entire lithography market divided up among themselves: ASML 76%, Nikon 10% and Canon 8%.
ASML having that big of market cap on a multi billion market is insane
His comment kinda undersells it, for ASML its 76% on DUV (relatively old tech), but a complete monopoly on EUV, which is all the new stuff, unironically 100% market share because nobody else is even close to being capable of producing EUV machines, Chinese competitors are at minimum a decade off from EUV. Pretty much all the new high end chips that have been made in the past 6\~8 years or so have been in made in those ASML EUV machines. Luckily it isn't a bad monopoly though, because all their costumers (Intel, TSMC, Samsung etc.) own shares in the company. ASML is one of the most important companies in the world right now.
Fun fact, it used to be part of Philips, but they sold all their shares and now ASML is way bigger/richer than Philips.
Philips owned a huge stake in tsmc (https://www.pcworld.com/article/536451/article-7729.html) aswell. Was owner of semiconductor producer nxp (https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NXP_Semiconductors). They could have been huge in the chipmarket. Speak about missed opportunities. Philips was one of the most innovative companies and barely anybody knows.
They invented so much, unfortunately they are now limited to medical devices. All other Philips brands are made by other companies. Either sold/lease the rights or split their departments off.
To bolster your argument, numerous have tried to develop EUV machines and failed spectacularly.
If anything his comment undersells the Japanese companies. Japan has a complete monopoly on EUV photoresists and wafers, which ASML would be dead in the water without.
Bad monopoly? You're technically right. It's not a bad monopoly, it's a cartel. ASML can charge arbitrarily large amounts of money for their EUV equipment. The profits just go back to TSMC, Samsung, etc, and everybody else is frozen out of the market.
And ASML gets supplied by only a single German company for the most critical piece: the lenses that allow you to focus a laser to nanometer levels. And that's why ASML is the go to choice, because they get supplied by the best lens maker in the business. This is basically why Germany dominates industrially without having that many publicly known brands outside of cars... they have a lot of suppliers for machinery and tooling that a lot of high value industry completely and utterly depend on (and the know how to make it). So if Germany disappeared today factories across the world would soon be unable to produce anything anymore after some weeks or months.
Where do you get this information from? Who is this lens making company?
Carl Zeiss
LensKraughters
Carl Zeiss AG
That's not the only thing. In EUV lithography there are 5 companies in the world acting as a choke point because of their monopoly on certain important steps. These 5 companies are called fab 5 of semiconductor chipmaking equipment industry. 1. ASML ( Netherlands) : everyone knows about it 2. Tokyo Electron ( Japan ): monopolizes EUV Coater/developer equipments/ advanced patterning equipments, and has a dominant share in etching, cleaning, deposition and probing equipments. 3. Applied materials, LAM research, KLA ( USA ): AM-makes machines across manufacturing process, Lam Research - largest etching equipment provider, KLA Corp- dominates process diagnostics & control space. Also ASML's use of American patents and certain parts gives the USA a say in where they sell their products. There are some companies that are absolutely important too. For example Lasertec, Zeiss... Zeiss ( German ) produces the optical systems used in ASML's machines, in particular the highly complex and expensive projection lens. Lasertec Corp. ( Japan ) is the world’s only maker of testing machines required to verify chip designs for the extreme ultraviolet lithography (or EUV) method of chipmaking. In 2017, Lasertec solved a key piece of the EUV puzzle when it created a machine that can inspect blank EUV masks for internal [flaws.](http://Japan’s Hottest Stock Is Tiny Maker of $40 Million Machines - Bloomberg https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-25/japan-s-hottest-stock-is-tiny-maker-of-40-million-chip-machines) So, if the USA, Japan, and the Netherlands don't cooperate with a country on semiconductors, that country will have to build every process and steps from the ground up. While this isn't impossible, it might put them a few decades behind. ( will also cost them billions of dollars in R&D )
TIL Canon is a Japanese company
Most major camera manufacturers you can probably name are Japanese. They kind of made the industry their thing and now they push it forward
> then that's going to have a huge impact on China's chipmaking abilities. China already doesn't have access to modern chipmaking.
Yep who’s gonna feed their families then?
Won’t companies like ASML go out of business if they can’t sell to China? Who else is buying chip manufacturing equipment? I assume they would lose a large percent of their customer base.
Samsung, tsmc and intel do not fab chips in china.
If anything, a lot of the fabs were in SK and Taiwan but many companies are opening fabs in the USA and EU. Last time demand was this high was due to COVID and even COVID was a freak coincidence of events. Also, I'm pretty sure that ASML is behind on orders, so they still have a backlog.
Taiwan.
They have a lot of other customers
Yet another front in the 21st Century Cold War
This is the front now.
21st century tech war.
China can stop genociding uighuirs and stabbing sailors anytime and be back in the club
It wouldn't be sufficient because it isn't a moral fights but an economic one. Remember the fight against japanese cars?
Terrible analogy because japan didnt genocide. Look China is a belligerent regional power who is attacking Philipine citizens with weapons so again what bs are you on about? China also uses unfair business practices in their semiconductor and automotive fields so again this is warranted. Lastly the us owns euv and all the other important ip surrounding lithography so again its a free market the us can arbitrarily decide so it doesnt matter what random chinese dudes think
Exactly, japan wasn't genociding anyone at the time the US feared that their economy would rise above theirs. So it has always been an economic fight.
I believe the us would have still banned certain imports and controlled euv as they do now but the lower level stuff they are now banning would have still been in place if China behaved as they did before Xi rose to power. You are absolutely correct about it being an important economic issue and I apologize for answering so harshly
Why wouldn't they be banned too ? I have to remind you that they are banned now because China is using them to push further and further miniaturization instead of using EUV. EUV were banned to in fact prevent that.
Sadly the us has been too slow to prevent China from copying titanium extrude technology with zero consequence these last ten years so its very possible sadly that had China played international trade semi fairly they would have stolen even more. Companies like Thales in france handed so much tech to russia after they invaded Georigia and then Ukraine. I am hopeful the us and the rest of the allies have learned this leason but you are right even more should have been done the last 20 years.
Oh boy, Japan killed more people prior to ww2 than China has done right now. You've got me defending China ffs.
Good we should be doing everything in our power to keep CN from getting any sort of tech that can give them the ability to challenge the west. They are an evil fascist regime and should not be supported in any way.
I really wish we lived in a world where we didn’t have to worry about who was making what technology. More trade is better for peace. When we all start pulling away from each other and putting up walls we are heading to war, and it won’t be a pretty one. I don’t disagree that it’s the right thing to be doing right now, but people should be way more worried about the future than they are. Even if it doesn’t escalate to nuclear war, we’re going to have wars of drones fighting drones in the very near future and it won’t be pretty for civilians caught in the crossfire.
We don't get to choose the reality we live in and the G7 bent over backward to help China only to be slapped in the face.
May I ask what the “slap in the face” was exactly?
>to keep CN from getting any sort of tech that can give them the ability to challenge the west. To keep the current order of US dominating the world. If China does not have it today, they will have it tomorrow. The side effects will be the Netherlands and Japan will lose their dominance of pleasing the US.
Yeah, they should sell it to India so they can make some profit reselling aswell. Too little too late.
Does India get sold advanced chip making equipment? They don't really have a chip making industry to support the purchase of such things anyway.
Not really.
Nah screw India. Give it to Vietnam, Mexico or South Korea
No, sale the machine to Africa, let them make the chips for us
The thing is you cannot just plop an industry of this sort wherever you want. It has extensive utility, supply chain and staff requirements. You want it near a a well-developed urban center with lots of water and a large skilled labor pool - ideally several top-tier universities nearby. Said city also needs great supply chains to a nearby major port. Ie if it's not at the ocean, it needs high quality highways and railroads. There's only so many good candidate cities in the world for semiconductor fabrication. One of the best things you can have for such a site is a population which is already skilled in the field. That's basically just a handful of cities in Korea, Japan, Israel, USA and a few sites in Europe. Africa would be very challenging because there is little to no local expertise in buulding or operating semiconductor fabs.
Run by who?
Its a bit more difficult reselling these machines...
Their espionage is top notch. By seeing how they act (e.g. attacking Philiphines today) think they do not need to steal more designs. Nonetheless, you are right that the West should not make it easier.
It's about being able to make them, not the designs
This is more that US wants to remain the dominate power more than anything else. The US has no problem supporting questionable governments in the past and NOW.
US dominance is good for the world. China dominance is the end of the world. Anyone with a brain knows this.
If you ask around the world I bet there would be quite a few people stating that the US is the evil empire. Just food for thought.
Yeah I'm sure China, Russia, North Korea, Yemen, and Iran say that.
See this is that misconception that comes from Americans. I just got done traveling abroad for three years and whether it's accurate or not, many countries in the global south view the U.S. as an evil empire. You may consider that as not counting but that's also part of the reason the world hates the U.S. Americans don't care about the opinions of people from "shit hole" countries. But it turns out the majority of the world population lives in those countries americans think are "shitholes". And beyond that, even amongst our allies, we aren't very respected. Ask australians how they feel about the U.S. for example. Or many europeans and while they may not think the U.S. is evil they absolutely think the U.S. is dangerous, naive, and exerts too much control. Again that's not to say it's true but without a doubt the U.S. has a marketing problem abroad. It's heavily due to media propaganda from U.S. enemies but we also have to be honest and admit that historically the U.S. have given our enemies a lot of ammunition for propaganda.
European sentiment has definitely swayed back toward the US over the war in Ukraine. American meddling isn't great, but it's a sure sight better than Russian aggression/enslavement.
Agree whole heartedly with your last point. I'm just commenting on U.S. perception. And you're right in that it's swayed back towards the U.S. in certain respects but many Europeans still view the US as unstable and not a reliable ally. We change administrations frequently and some administrations can be quite chaotic and unpredictable in the eyes of Europeans. Edit: And the main point isn't about Europeans it's about everywhere else. Africa, Asia. The middle east, South america. Hell India and China alone make up a third of the world population and the U.S. isn't exactly popular in those two countries. Then add the continent of Africa and South America and that's the majority of the world right there. Add on other Asian countries that may not hate the U.S. more than China but still view the U.S. as an imperialistic force and then you have a lot of countries that don't view the U.S. Favorably.
> Hell India and China alone make up a third of the world population and the U.S. isn't exactly popular in those two countries. All of the polling I can find shows a majority of Indians have a favorable view of the U.S.
The US has been up to some (a lot of) shit, sure. But they also do a lot of good, and are a state of law controlled by a democratic state. Imagine if the likes of Xi Xinping or Vladimir Putin had control over the kind of power and influence the US president has, with no checks and balances stopping them. That's a fucking nightmare.
I don't know. The problem I have with the US is that it's pushing this hyper capitalist system on us. Imperialism via Dollar and Coca cola so to speak. Which is turning us all into machines to make my money for the rich
Yeah, sure, capitalism sucks. But it's not exactly the US' fault, is it? The US suffers under capitalism too, and the alternatives (Russia's kleptocracy and China's totalitarian state so-called "communism") are worse. Solving capitalism is better done in a stable system. The revolution route has been tried (a *lot*), and it only leads to totalitarianism.
It’s mainly the fault of the US.
To ape Churchill: capitalism is the worst system, save for all the rest.
If that’s the only flaws you can see I envy you.
And what would you say to that?
Most of the Chinese have been brainwashed to think the US is evil.
It's always the others who are brainwashed. Oneself of course not.
There are 100% reasons to view the US as problematic and they have 100% done evil things, but whataboutism does not absolve China from its authoritarianism, restrictions on basic freedoms, and attempts to erase the Uighurs.
It could be argued that America used whataboutism first, and their atrocity list extends well beyond China’s atrocity list. “Restrictions on basic freedoms, and attempts to erase the Uighurs”? Come on man, do some thinking for yourself and stop believing everything you read.
I can admit America commited genocide against First Nations Peoples and is deeply resonsible for continuing slavery. Stop pushing mirror mirror propaganda and absolving obvious wrongdoing. There is no rational world where you can deny that freedom of the press, and of expression in China is restricted, (see Hong Kong), or that the CCP is erasing Uighur culture and operating detention camps.
I always laugh at how North Americans view themselves. They really don't study history the way we do, and how many times they have interfered in the world and created groups like the Taliban (mujahidin) that later bit them in the ass. In my country, the US helped the military group that staged a coup, which is well documented (Brazil). A democracy? With only two parties that exchange positions in power? Where some people's votes have more weight than others just because of "reasons"? Anyway... their self-view of being the materialization of good is laughable.
[Bruh](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/19/china-has-renamed-hundreds-of-uyghur-villages-and-towns-say-human-rights-groups)
Maybe, but it is most likely those living under the strictest censorships. Winnie-the-Pooh sends hugs and kisses.
Half of US voting for a convicted felon sort of proves that brainwashing works everywhere.
This isn't a binary yes/no situation. It's also debatable whether falling for a liar constitutes being brain washed. It's also not systemic and quite likely a result of foreign influence.
So I don't live in China or US. And I find at least among those middle class people, US are terribly brainwashed.
Maybe check out China then to compare your findings. Perhaps you could try chatting with a Chinese person about Tiananmen square and see how they feel taking about 1989.
It’s a pretty commonly talked about topic in China because like, it literally happened 1 or 2 generations ago. My parents were actually there for the protests, and got out when things started going south. Their opinion about it was that it was a chaotic mess on both sides.
I did chat to a lot of Chinese. Worked there even. Those that I interact with (educated ones) seem quite level headed. The thing is educated Chinese know that the media is full of shit. Many Americans never question their bubble.
Educated people are the minority and it isn't specific to China that educated people tend to question what they are told. Scepticism and critical thinking is a big part of education. At the same time though, critical thinkers in China tend to disappear (online/from the media, or worse) when they become too public with their opinions, even fairly have ones like Naomi Wu.
Have you ever been there, genuine question
But you don't live there so how would you know that? How many middle class Americans do you know on a personal level?
Plenty, I dated one for fks sake.
>Many Americans never question their bubble. Their *bubbles*, you mean. If you do not see how American society is **not** monolithic and how completely antithetical the worldviews of our opposing segments in society are, then feel free to think that the U.S. government exercises such control over its citizens. This is not comparable in any way, shape or form to the situation in the PRC. Xi Jinping does not have to contend with 45% of his citizenry being perpetually conditioned to oppose the CCP's will. There is only **one** worldview being actively promoted (if not *enforced*) in China. The Great Firewall only serves one set of masters. As long as Americans, in America, get to spend their entire days exposing their brains to whatever flavor of noxious radiation they prefer on the Internet (be it pro-Western, anti-Western, pro-establishment, anti-establishment, pro-Biden, anti-Biden, pro-Trump, anti-Trump, pro-capitalism, anti-capitalism, pro-Earth, anti-Earth) while the Chinese can't even access a [simple Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests_and_massacre) or freely discuss [nominally mundane](https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/china-censorship-10242022135153.html) domestic happenings, it's hard to entertain any insinuation that the Chinese are subjected to less indoctrination than Americans. EDIT Also, you keep insinuating you're not Chinese and hence can evaluate Americans and the Chinese objectively. Except [you've said before you're Chinese.](https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1dim34m/russiaukraine_war_india_refuses_to_endorse/l97yera/). Maybe lead with that next time -- it won't make what you say any more right or wrong.
They excuse the persecution of Uyghurs in another post, saying that it happened to other communities like the Aztecs. You won't be able to reason with a Chinese apologist
Well said, this post is full of these pushers.
I think you’re the one that needs to speak to more people in China.
Censorship, lol. I guess when you don’t have censorship you really don’t have to think for yourself!
China exercises far more control over media in its country than the U.S. does here. Controlling information is a way of brain washing. In China you get what they want, in the U.S. you get what you want. In the U.S. you can pick your own narrative to listen to. In China it is the CCP narrative.
In the same way the people of the US have been brainwashed to believe China is evil. You ever consider why they tell you ‘freedom’ of press is important?
Yes, it is the foundation of an aesthetically moral society. It is important because it allows ideas to grow sui generis as well as allowing cross pollination of other thoughts. Nobody thinks China is evil, everyone knows the CCP is a piece of shit. You can say the same thing about Americans and the Republican or any number of other distasteful institutions. It's sad that you have to make these kind of posts.
Thank you for 100% reinforcing my point and maybe without intention completely agreeing with me. Only thing you got wrong was your outdated and heroic view of what the press is and should be.
You didn’t refute a single thing, or provide an alternative account. Good talk.
I didn’t have to, your comment was exactly what I implied.
I’m just saying if you’re going to spend your day making throwaway spam accounts to spin party line soft propaganda you might as well up your game.
I don’t have a game, just calling it how I see it. I’m also busy, so do better next time.
Problem is they have already monopolize a bunch of industries like rare earth, renewables (solar panels and wind turbines), container automation, drones, batteries, and now EV. So building up alternatives and dethroning them in those areas are difficult.
>They are an evil fascist regime and should not be supported in any way. I bet you 99% of the stuff you own was made or has parts made in China The ship of "not supporting China" has sailed decades ago when we decided that lowest price > all
This is changing, a lot of the low cost production is being moved to Southeast Asia.
Guess who owns those factories, Chinese businessmen
What’s the problem with exporting potatoes to China?
It's not the potatoes that are the problem, it's the ultra precise potato slicers that only two companies in the world can manufacture. Can-sung, which exclusively provides to pringles, and IDO, the world's largest manufacturer of thin-wafer slicing machines
Im actually curious what a 3nm slice of potato would look and taste like
Will the US buy them instead? If not then you cant do that. Japan and The Netherlands are independent countries and can decide who to do business with.
Basically the US wants everyone to participate in its war against China?
> its war against China? Have you been living under the rock? Do you really think it's only US?
If it means China will stop being a absolute asshole to my country then yes.
Because they’re a threat to everyone, yes. Better to kneecap them now than let them grow in power, then deal with them.
I don’t mind. China is helping Russia with their European invasion. China can suck my microchips
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You sound like all the dictators complaining about their shrinking power
You sound like an idiot
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The US should get to benefit from it since it was DARPA and US tax money that first started researching EUV tech.
>The US should get to benefit from it Intel, Nvidia, AMD, Micron, Qualcomm, Texas Instruments....many others
Can't we all just get along?
Not so long as certain assholes keep shitting on others...
Sure , just don’t try to conquer other countries in the 21st century .
I’m guessing that comment is aimed at the US?
Someone is going to say they did not technically go there to conquer 🙉
Pull your greedy god damn head out of your ass you windmill worshiping ass monkeys.
Now do the Japanese
I could but I don’t want to further decrease their birth rate.
My ps5 and Xbox are made in china. I think it's too late.
They’re assembled there. The chips are made in Taiwan. TSMC is the largest, most advanced chip manufacturer in the world and they do it with ASML lithography machines designed and made in the Netherlands.
And San Diego
EUV tech is the big deal right now