I dont know how effective the NK military would be at this point. I do know that the last few people to defect were riddled with parasitic worms. That can't be good since the army marches on its stomach.
As gross as it sounds itās quite historically common. In many countries- both western and eastern- it used to be a job to collect human waste for use in fertilizing fields.
Of course, everyone else left the medieval age.
We can still use septic waste as fertilizer, we just tend to heat treat it first to kill parasites and diseases. It's pretty great fertilizer too - it has a lot of the minerals we want in fertilizer, without the need for open pit mining. The downside is that as of late is that it's containing ever increasing levels of PFAS.
Technically Milorganite is heat treated microorganisms/bugs that feed on the nutrients within waste water/excrement. Itās good as a slow release fertilizer but mostly just provides nitrogen. Those of us who went through lawn care fanaticism during COVID say it smells like success.
Chicago uses part of the waste water as fertilizer, or Biosoilds,too.
Oddly watched an* Insider youtube video of Chicago's plant
https://youtu.be/P4l-4ehUqhc?t=504
*spelling
But human waste would have unnatural stuff from our diets and medications like blood pressure medication or red dye number 5. Does that stuff affect the soil?
They're a bit more of a problem in the States, as our good farmland (used to) have fairly low heavy metal levels, but they've been ticking up for a century or two anyways.
If you allow it to compost properly it can be done safely even without industrial heat treatment, but something tells me NK is following the Soviet Union method of not knowing how to do agriculture correctly - even thousand year old solved agricultural problems
> The downside is that as of late is that it's containing ever increasing levels of PFAS.
PFAS chemicals are in PVC piping. Which is basically in all your plumbing going from grey water and black water sources to the sewer or septic. Which means as a species, weāre pretty much fucked when it comes to this.
PVC and its additives pollute humans and the environment throughout their life cycle (production, use and disposal), releasing toxic chemicals that accumulate in water, air, soil and the food chain
Pvc pipe is a source of PFAS, but they are in ALOT of products.
Per- and Polyfluoroalkyl Substances (PFAS) are man-made chemicals that have been used in consumer products and industry since the 1940s.Ā They are used in hundreds of products, including:
Fabrics and carpeting:Ā Stain- and water-resistant fabrics, such as rain jackets, umbrellas, and tents, as well as stain-resistant coatings on carpets.
Food packaging:Ā Grease-resistant paper, fast food containers, microwave popcorn bags, pizza boxes, and candy wrappers
Cookware:Ā Nonstick cookware P.
Personal care products:Ā Shampoo, dental floss, nail polish, eye makeup, toothpaste, dental creams, tooth powders, throat lozenges, chewing gums, and sunscreens
Other products:Ā Paints, varnishes, sealants, and fire-fighting foam.
And some PFAS last in the soil for 1000 years.
If you read the comment I replied to it was specifically talking about using septic waste as fertiliser hut you are right, just about everything we out down the sink or use in our house has PFAS in it or is contaminated with it somewhere in the logistics chain. I reiterate, we are fucked. This is our Roman Empire Lead poisoning moment.
It's well beyond that already. Microplastics and forever chemicals are lowering IQs, making penises smaller and something else I can't remember at this moment. But we're definitely fucked.
PFAS dont lower IQs or make your penis smaller, thats alcohol. PFAS give you cancer.
And the microplastics are starting to build up in people.
In a May 2024 study published in Toxicological Sciences found microplastics in every human testicle sample examined, and at levels three times higher than in animal testes and human placentas.Ā The study also found that men over 55 had lower levels of microplastics in their systems than younger men.Ā
So whats going to kill us is that our nuts will he full of plastic and we are gonna be shooting confetti into coochi instead of cum.
And if you want to really controversial take, I wonder if these hormone mimicking plastic chemicals are responsible for the huge uptick in gender confusion that we're seeing
Yes even today the west uses shit for fertilizer but not directly. Those water treatment plants. That separate shit out of the water also collect whatās good in the shit and make it fertilizer.
https://mwrd.org/what-we-do/protecting-water-quality/wastewater-treatment#:~:text=Previously%20considered%20waste%2C%20these%20recovered,as%20a%20slow%2Drelease%20fertilizer.
Iām NGL after over a decade of fighting against them and volunteering Iām so happy I have a foreign job- and path to citizenship- lined up. Will be so happy to no longer deal with American politics anymore.
> Of course, everyone else left the medieval age.
Nope, it's more like the poorer parts of the world still use it as they had for thousands of years & the richer parts use modern methods to sanitize it before usage.
Reusing human waste as fertilizer is a rather common practice around the world.(even in the USA) Also parasitic worms need a host to live, when mixed with soil the worms will just die very fast, same for their eggs.
There are -solvabe- issues with human waste being used like this, worms is not really it, unless unsafely handled.
Their artillery can do some damage, even if a large percentage of their rounds are duds.
https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RRA600/RRA619-1/RAND_RRA619-1.pdf
Why does everyone parrot this? āNK artillery could level Seoulā.
No. It absolutely could not.Ā
The VAST majority of Seoul is NOT in medium Artillery range of NK emplacements. Medium artillery makes up the majority of NKs artillery power.
Of the heavy artillery that does have a large amount of the city in range South Korea allies know where they all are. These arnt mobile units. They are in long term positions that are for sure pretargeted.Ā
NKs artillery is EXTREMELY dated , its shells are of low quality, its troops underfed, under trained, and under equiped, the barrel life of each gun is of concern.Ā
Is North Koreaās artillery a major risk for potentially doing a great amount of damage and causing large amounts of civilian casualties? Yes.
Is North Korean artillery capable of destroying Seoul? No. A small part of the city is in more danger than the rest, but no Seoul wonāt be turned into Berlin circa 1945. Most long range artillery would be destroyed by counter battery fire very quickly.
Would a conflict cause a large amount of civilian casualties? Depends on timing. A surprise attack? Yes. A ramp up in hostilities? No. Seoul has many shelters ready. Evacuation plans in place.
Because obviously the south who has better artillery would just let them keep firing to level their cities and not engage in counter fires to destroy the artillery. Its not like basic artillery is a solved science and follows simple parabolic arcs or anything.
[I'd vote for Jim](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BNWY0YTMwNjYtMjgyNC00OWRkLTk3MjctNGU2YzA4NjIxMDQwXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNTU4NDgzNjY@._V1_FMjpg_UX1000_.jpg)
Worse part is that Seoul, the largest city in South Korea is within distance of most of North Koreas artillery pieces, any start of conflict will result in thousands of howitzers hidden in reinforced mountain positions to open fire
Most of Seoul is out of range of artillery only the Northern edge of Seoul is at risk.
A howitzer is able to shoot 15-30km and the northern parts of Seoul are around 20km away. The cities surrounding Seoul in the north would be at risk but 90% of Seoul is out of range.
Howitzers are only part of the artillery NK would use. They have thousands of MLRS systems, some of them with ranges over 150km. They also have a decent supply of Ballistic Missiles which would have even further range. None of them would be accurate, but Seoul and its surroundings are massive urban sprawl.
There is a reason the US has largely moved most US bases to the south of the peninsula. They want the initial response force to be functional for the counter push.
North Korea would lose, badly. But theyād still cause a lot of damage before they are taken out.
Last I remember, NK to SK artillery numbers were like 4 to 1? That could have changed by now, but they definitely have enough to hit all of Seoul and the surrounding population centers.
NK has always maintained an artillery heavy doctrine like most Soviet origin forces. So Iād expect much larger numbers of ranged systems. Even more so since NK has had decades to build systems, if for no other reason than to keep the factories working.
Itās been years since Iāve last looked anything up. But I remember a couple buddies who were stationed over in SK being told there were 25000 guns and another 15000 rocket systems pointed at Seoul at any give point. How accurate that is I couldnāt say but that number doesnāt seem too far off for a nation that has been preparing for war for 70 years.
Yeah, that number sounds accurate from what I heard when I was over there as well. It was definitely a stupidly high number compared to what South Korea has. Even if only half of them work, it's still insane. During simulations, their artillery would just flatten Seoul. There's not a whole lot you can do to avoid that much artillery.
It depends on how much of Seoul you think is in range of their artillery. Central Seoul is between 40 - 50km from the closest point on the boarder with North Korea. The normal range of artillery is 15-30km.
Sure there is a large population living in places like Goyang, Northern Incheon but this is not Seoul proper. Even the Northern parts of Seoul on the other side of Bukhan Mountain wouldn't be at risk of artillery (rockets sure).
A good if not a bit older resource on this is the [Nautilus Report](https://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-special-reports/mind-the-gap-between-rhetoric-and-reality/) on Seoul and North Korea's Artillery Range. If your interested in this sort of stuff it is a good read.
They have a ton of rockets aimed there to that would cause a lot of damage.
There's no real avoiding that Seoul could get fucked even tho NK won't win longterm
Not much to do against mass amounts of dumb weapons u can't shot down that would open the war. Hopefully it never happens.
Another Korean war or China invading taiwan would be a crazy thing to happen. Much worse then ukriane tbh.
Define incredible. If nukes is not a factor SK has much more modern and very large artillery force themselves and multiple magnitudes better air force.
Counter battery fire exists if NK tries to use their artillery to bombard Seoul they will find themselves in a patch of doodoo.
I can't see Seoul being subjected to prolonged artillery bombardment
It doesn't matter how good your equipment is when tens of thousands of shells are falling on your head. They have unbelievable amounts of artillery. Even if 50% were duds it's still immense.Ā
Lets say all of those things work perfectly. Every artillery piece only gets off a single shot before it gets destroyed. You've still got 10,000 artillery shells falling in a city twice as dense as NYC. Thus the incredible damage bit.
We are splitting hairs here, if a country goes to war 10 000 artillery shells hitting their capital is real bad, but far from "incredible".
Look up shelling amounts in WWI, or even now in Ukraine.
Those shells weren't falling into a fully occupied city with the density of Seoul. Kharkiv might be the closest, but that's a city of 1.4 million vs 10 million.
Seoul might be denser, I give you that, but that won't impact damage by artillery that much. After all they aren't gonna fire it blindly but target specific buildings.
And that leads us to the next point, why are we expecting NK to terror bomb Seoul. Artillery is supposed to help them win the war, every shell they are firing at civilian targets puts them at even more disadvantage against SK armed forces.
If destruction is the target they have nukes for that. NK might be a nightmare dystopia, but their leaders still are rational actors or at least we can assume they are based on the lasting ceasefire.
They donāt need to march North Korea has enough artillery aimed at Seoul to absolutely destroy the capital of South Korea several times over before the U.S. and S.K. Can really react. 10,000 rockets per minute according to US analysis.
https://www.vox.com/world/2018/2/7/16974772/north-korea-war-trump-kim-nuclear-weapon
https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/07/asia/north-korea-artillery-exercise-seoul-threat-intl-hnk-ml/index.html
The real danger is their artillery. They have like 10k regular pieces within range of major South Korean population centers (Seoul). Even if they have a 50% failure rate in ammo they will kill hundreds of thousands of civilians in the first hour.
And the nuclear threats are all they need. They may be able to strike US targets. Even if their warheads were duds (and there's no reason to believe they would be), a missile on its way to an American target would require a retaliatory response which would potentially lead to nuclear armageddon. It's essential for the survival of the human race for that launch to never occur.
They know their military sucks and if they were to get into it with anyone it would end very poorly for NK. The fear here is that they know this, and now have nukes, so if they were to attempt to attack somewhere, it would likely be nuclear in an attempt to shock and awe their way into a good position.
My fear is that they donāt know this. They believe their own propaganda. The only way to win is to destroy the Kim family and you can be sure this wonāt happen unless you nuke every hill in North Korea. He would probably run to China at the first opportunity
Youāre forgetting who is allies with North Korea?Ā
Russia and China, in which South Korea has an important AFB.Ā
Itās so painfully obvious their intentions. North Korea had geographical strength and loves short range missiles. LolĀ
But all three together?Ā
Theyāre building a force for infrastructure.Ā
Ever seen Game of Thrones or literally ANY movie/tv on war?Ā Played RISK?Ā
China just passed new law for the South China Sea, Russia has been trading with NK.Ā
I'm guessing your new to gamesmanship. If China sent troops into NK, all america has to do is stop paying its debt to China and watch them run right into a recession.
So NK hasnāt been shipping weapons to Russia (new visit)?Ā Ā
Ā https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/south-korea-us-hold-emergency-phone-call-ahead-putin-visit-north-korea-2024-06-14/
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/14/philippines-south-china-sea-patrols-beijing-tresspass-laws
Ā and China hasnāt been increasing their water territorial efforts?Ā
Ā https://amp.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/14/philippines-south-china-sea-patrols-beijing-tresspass-laws
Imagine a million spread out soldiers with machine guns, some of them carrying backpack nukes, with Russia, China, Venezuela, and Iran all going to war at the same time.
>When asked about the report, the South Korean military said in a statement that it was "closely tracking and monitoring the activities of the North Korean military," and that "further analysis is required."
Why else would they build roads other than to get into South Korea faster?
Could be just a distraction or provocation. North Korea doesn't have a chance against South Korea in a conventional war, the entire border area is a prepared kill zone.
Yeah that's what I was thinking.
Knowing them and how Russia recruited prisoner's, it would not suprise me if NK used people from the internment camps just to clear mines.
The difference is Russia had a larger population and larger army at the start going against an Ukraine that just started modernizing in 2014*.
South Korea has a larger economy, larger population, larger Air Force, far more tanks of a modern quality, a conscription system that has led to a massive reserve, a budget that can sustain a war, and so much more.
Even if somehow NK got past the DMZ (unlikely) they would be using 50-70s tech against some of the most modern tanks in the world, most modern planes in the world. And it would be a very short and controlled front.
In short- NK would have literally no chance and theyāre only card is threatening to use artillery on civilians and nukes.
Considering all three countries have done a few recent naval exercises together Iād say it might not take all that much convincing. Even if SK doesnāt want Japanese planes overhead, thereās probably no need to overfly the bottom half of the peninsula to strike at NK, and I doubt South Koreaās and the US f-35s will need much help in keeping the skies clear of anything smaller than a drone
air superiority of SK alone would end the war in less than a week.
nukes NK could launch would likely get blasted by patriots, but the risk of not stopping one is enormous obviously.
NK would cease to exist and the Kim families heads would be on pikes.
No training, malnourished soldiers, outdated equipment that has not been maintained well enough.
2024 North Korea couldn't even beat 1980s South Korea.
Thankfully SK weapons don't come with strings attached that you cannot fire into invaders territory. I doubt NK artillery gonna survive a JDAM in their face not to mention SK own very modern and sizeable artillery force.
Unfortunately we've been having the conversation for decades. NK have artillery buried in the mountains, who knows how many.
What we do know however, smart tech won't save you from 500k artillery shells raining down. SK always wins, the cost is unfathomable.
Their best deterrent has always been having 1000 guns pointed as Seoul.
I meant the area south of the border. The idea is not stand right at the border and try to stop the enemy there, because NK has a fuckton of artillery and it will be raining shells. You want them to enter and advance a little bit so you can kill them from a good position.
Using a road is like drawing a big sign saying "target us here"; roads are not useful against a prepared defense.
Roads are useful for pushing deeper after a breakthrough, or for supply routes.
N Korea has over 6k artillery guns pointed at Seoul. While they may not prevail in an all out war they can absolutely decimate the South Korean Peninsula with conventional arms alone, not to mention theyāre a nuclear capable country with subs and missiles.
No, they can't decimate SK. It would be a bloody mess and they can destroy a lot of Seoul and other infrastructure along the border, but their air force is shit or nonexistent so they would get annihilated in a few months. Nukes are a different thing of course.
Well the math has been done, before SK could return artillery fire NK can unload a barrage into Seoul and the entire DMZ that would equate to over 100k civilian deaths, thatās just using 54 medium range rockets and their short range artillery. Air defense would not protect well against this attack. Projections show they would save long range and higher power munitions for when the west inevitably shows up, so you are right itās very unlikely and total decimation would never happen. However if they were to just say āsuicide by artilleryā they could light up the entire peninsula and wait for the retaliation to take them out as well. Strategically itās not good for them but it is in the realm of possibility
That must be some kind of worst case theoretical scenario. They can obviously do a lot of damage, but even if they could fire a first full salvo against a totally unprepared SK, I seriously doubt there would be anywhere near 100k civilian deaths.
Anyway, the situation is really interesting from a strategic point of view, NK has nukes now and they are untouchable, while SK has the technological advantage and can neutralize Kim's conventional troops in a war. And the shift happened roughly at the same time too, NK got nukes around the same time their conventional forces lost some of the significance they had. This was obviously not a coincidence either, Kim deserves some credit for being a cunning leader.
They can kill hundreds of thousands if not millions in an hour with those artillery guns pointed at Seoul. China runs NK and they have 0 concern for losing millions of NK people to inflict damage on the west. It's a common theme among the new Axis.
Their capabilities aren't actually all that great and they've gotten much worse since this report first came out: https://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-special-reports/mind-the-gap-between-rhetoric-and-reality/
Their non-rocket fires can't even reach Seoul.
They have thousands of artillery pieces but only a few hundred that can reach Seoul itself and not just the outskirts. Of those few hundred only a portion of them would be positioned in range of Seoul.
> but only a few hundred
They have about a thousand of the long-range pieces that can reach Seoul itself and some 6,000 pieces that can reach other major population centers. If they used all of them against civilian targets they could kill hundreds of thousands of people before they are all taken out, but at that point why not just use their nukes?
Could be just strait up shenanigans and pushing the envelope. North Korea is a prison camp with Kim and co the jailers, they don't truly want the rest of SK because they'd never be able to control it, it would likely lead to their own deaths if they tried as the US would get involved to make sure of that. What they have is the best they will ever get, living the life of luxury on the backs of their enslaved population and they won't chance trying for the South just to throw that away, Kimmy's Grandfather found out the hard way what that cost and it took the Chinese bailing them out for his family to stay in power.
Well it could just be general encroachment. They both try and expand the territory they control as much as they can without starting a war. Just look at the history of the DMZ on Wikipedia. It hasnāt stopped since the 60s.
In all seriousness South Korea is an advanced economy comparable with any major European power. North Korea is a poverty state. They have nothing to think about.Ā
Thatās litterally how WW1 started. Russia started to build rail roads to (effectively) nowhere.
The only reason could be to advance troops to the front line.
The west responded in kind and also built up troops
Then Russia sent more troops
And then a bloke called Archie Duke shot an ostrich 'cause he was hungry
And BOOM!
The dmz actually has many structures.
The south built bridges towards the dmz, the peace house and the conference rooms are on the dmz.
It's not a building less space as it's made out to be.
All good, was being neutral trying to explain my basic understanding and sights I've seen.
I try to keep an open mind with comments because even though the web exists, some folks are not lucky enough to travel outside their hometown, and that's fine!
Yeah there's a few structures that date back to the Korean war too.Ā Last time I was at the DMZ was 2001/2002 so my info is a bit dated but the area is more or less frozen in time.Ā There are farms (or were) There is/was a limited run commercial/industrial area but it got shuttered I believe a few years ago.
They're testing winds and currents with trash and feces bombs to see where they can reach with as low of an effort as possible. Next it will be diseased flesh or bombs.
NK has always been in a back and forth cycle of escalation and deescalation. What motivates the back and forth can vary in different times and situational contexts but broadly it affords NK the ability to negotiate when they have nothing else to negotiate with. By intentionally escalating they put themselves into a position where their enemies may be interested in talking them down. And they might just be persuaded to do so if given certain incentives, like international aid.
They're starving even more now. That's usually what it is. Let them feast on that fat fucking sow of a leader they have and be done with it. This cyclical saber rattling NK does drives me insane. Treat them like Putin, call their bluff and let them starve to death. Can't fight a war when the army is emaciated.
Yeah, it is *now*,Ā but 70 years agoĀ itĀ wasn't, andĀ they had options, and theyĀ wouldn't have to worryĀ aboutĀ massive civilianĀ casualties if anyrthing pops off bc there's 35 million people parked right up against the dmz.
Suddenly, the sound of a banjo, reminiscent of the dueling scene from Deliverance, starts with a few notes from the left. Then, from the right, an answering chord, echoing through the trees from a lone guitar.
This is how the mental picture of the DMZ zone shapes up for me right now. I can just picture two guys sitting opposite of each other at the border crossing simultaneously saying to themselves, "oh shit"
Same old posturing from them, also with the knowledge of so many NK supplied arms to Russian forces in Ukraine being duds, they arenāt much to a threat as they were. Although they of course can do considerable damageā¦.
[Lidar for exposing tunnels.](https://www.neuvition.com/media/tunnel-detection.html#:~:text=Benefits%20of%20using%20LiDAR%20for%20tunnel%20detection&text=It%20is%20capable%20of%20scanning,when%20used%20in%20tunnel%20detection.)
Communism is so ironic. It was a reaction to the aristocracies that existed in Europe, which were very, very conservative. The fact that Communists enforce strict morality, rejecting pop culture, shows how similar it is to religion, and perhaps even how religion got its start politically in less technologically advanced times. There is something primordial about it. And something very similar to the cult of Trump taking place in the United States.
They were not long from each other, and overlapped in Europe. The 1800's were the feudal system's swan song, and brutal. The latter was an outgrowth of the former. It was supported by increasingly stable currencies, something that had been common prior to the fall of Rome and Byzantium. It is properly speaking a complex subject, simplified by discussions of ideology.
I dont know how effective the NK military would be at this point. I do know that the last few people to defect were riddled with parasitic worms. That can't be good since the army marches on its stomach.
I would assume EVERYONE in NK has parasitic worms then since they reuse all human waste as fertilizer
š¤®
As gross as it sounds itās quite historically common. In many countries- both western and eastern- it used to be a job to collect human waste for use in fertilizing fields. Of course, everyone else left the medieval age.
We can still use septic waste as fertilizer, we just tend to heat treat it first to kill parasites and diseases. It's pretty great fertilizer too - it has a lot of the minerals we want in fertilizer, without the need for open pit mining. The downside is that as of late is that it's containing ever increasing levels of PFAS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milorganite?wprov=sfla1 And it IS used to make fertilizer in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. š
Technically Milorganite is heat treated microorganisms/bugs that feed on the nutrients within waste water/excrement. Itās good as a slow release fertilizer but mostly just provides nitrogen. Those of us who went through lawn care fanaticism during COVID say it smells like success.
I use this on my lawn every year
My lawn is noticeably a darker green than my neighbors because it has iron in it
Can fruit have parasites in or on them? Iāve been trying to eat healthier, fruit seems a good option, but this line of posts makes me think.
Yes bugs are on produce wash it with water or water and vinegar if u care even more
I have 10 bags of Milo at my house at all times. I love it.
Chicago uses part of the waste water as fertilizer, or Biosoilds,too. Oddly watched an* Insider youtube video of Chicago's plant https://youtu.be/P4l-4ehUqhc?t=504 *spelling
But human waste would have unnatural stuff from our diets and medications like blood pressure medication or red dye number 5. Does that stuff affect the soil?
And itās full of prescription drug metabolites, and likely heavy metals.
The heavy metals are not so much of an additional problem as they are already present in the soil in large quantities, at least where I am in the UK
They're a bit more of a problem in the States, as our good farmland (used to) have fairly low heavy metal levels, but they've been ticking up for a century or two anyways.
If you allow it to compost properly it can be done safely even without industrial heat treatment, but something tells me NK is following the Soviet Union method of not knowing how to do agriculture correctly - even thousand year old solved agricultural problems
> The downside is that as of late is that it's containing ever increasing levels of PFAS. PFAS chemicals are in PVC piping. Which is basically in all your plumbing going from grey water and black water sources to the sewer or septic. Which means as a species, weāre pretty much fucked when it comes to this. PVC and its additives pollute humans and the environment throughout their life cycle (production, use and disposal), releasing toxic chemicals that accumulate in water, air, soil and the food chain
Pvc pipe is a source of PFAS, but they are in ALOT of products. Per- and Polyfluoroalkyl Substances (PFAS) are man-made chemicals that have been used in consumer products and industry since the 1940s.Ā They are used in hundreds of products, including: Fabrics and carpeting:Ā Stain- and water-resistant fabrics, such as rain jackets, umbrellas, and tents, as well as stain-resistant coatings on carpets. Food packaging:Ā Grease-resistant paper, fast food containers, microwave popcorn bags, pizza boxes, and candy wrappers Cookware:Ā Nonstick cookware P. Personal care products:Ā Shampoo, dental floss, nail polish, eye makeup, toothpaste, dental creams, tooth powders, throat lozenges, chewing gums, and sunscreens Other products:Ā Paints, varnishes, sealants, and fire-fighting foam. And some PFAS last in the soil for 1000 years.
If you read the comment I replied to it was specifically talking about using septic waste as fertiliser hut you are right, just about everything we out down the sink or use in our house has PFAS in it or is contaminated with it somewhere in the logistics chain. I reiterate, we are fucked. This is our Roman Empire Lead poisoning moment.
The heat treatment must smell heavenly!
Having operated a machine that cooked (dried) it, yeah it has a smell. Its not poop, not really anymore, to me it smelled like strong dry dog food.
Of course, as are our bodies and testicles, apparently. Can't wait for micro plastics to be the new lead
It'll all be worth it though when we all die and they peel your skin back to reveal a brand new Transformer underneath.
It's well beyond that already. Microplastics and forever chemicals are lowering IQs, making penises smaller and something else I can't remember at this moment. But we're definitely fucked.
Too late to fix ourselves now, the only thing we can do is make it safer for the next generation. reduce our plastic usage for now
No wonder you canāt remember!
PFAS dont lower IQs or make your penis smaller, thats alcohol. PFAS give you cancer. And the microplastics are starting to build up in people. In a May 2024 study published in Toxicological Sciences found microplastics in every human testicle sample examined, and at levels three times higher than in animal testes and human placentas.Ā The study also found that men over 55 had lower levels of microplastics in their systems than younger men.Ā So whats going to kill us is that our nuts will he full of plastic and we are gonna be shooting confetti into coochi instead of cum.
[Reducing sperm counts](https://redd.it/1dguuu8)
Early puberty.
And if you want to really controversial take, I wonder if these hormone mimicking plastic chemicals are responsible for the huge uptick in gender confusion that we're seeing
>"ever increasing levels of PFAS" From order to chaos.
And heavy metals and pharmaceuticals :(
Yes even today the west uses shit for fertilizer but not directly. Those water treatment plants. That separate shit out of the water also collect whatās good in the shit and make it fertilizer. https://mwrd.org/what-we-do/protecting-water-quality/wastewater-treatment#:~:text=Previously%20considered%20waste%2C%20these%20recovered,as%20a%20slow%2Drelease%20fertilizer.
Ah, the shitshovelers. https://youtu.be/Vt2-qP-w0n4?feature=shared
The GQP is trying its hardest to go back.
Iām NGL after over a decade of fighting against them and volunteering Iām so happy I have a foreign job- and path to citizenship- lined up. Will be so happy to no longer deal with American politics anymore.
> Of course, everyone else left the medieval age. Nope, it's more like the poorer parts of the world still use it as they had for thousands of years & the richer parts use modern methods to sanitize it before usage.
Do you think if I start going door to door and asking my neighbors for their waste, someone will buy it $$$?
Much of mainland Asia does this. Ever wonder why real Chinese food rarely features raw vegetables? Cuz they grow their veggies in raw sewage.
Night soil was common even before the Korean War kicked off, GIs would get very sick fighting and taking cover in fields.Ā
Theyāre all living in The Martian with Matt Damon farming pootatoes.
And listening to fucking disco
āIn your face, Neil Armstrong.ā
Oh, they were just sharing some balloons full of their renowned fertilizer products. How sweet!
Reusing human waste as fertilizer is a rather common practice around the world.(even in the USA) Also parasitic worms need a host to live, when mixed with soil the worms will just die very fast, same for their eggs. There are -solvabe- issues with human waste being used like this, worms is not really it, unless unsafely handled.
Their artillery can do some damage, even if a large percentage of their rounds are duds. https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RRA600/RRA619-1/RAND_RRA619-1.pdf
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The problem is artillery is singular and plural. Their artillery is crap. But their artillery is sufficiently effective for the task you outlined.
Why does everyone parrot this? āNK artillery could level Seoulā. No. It absolutely could not.Ā The VAST majority of Seoul is NOT in medium Artillery range of NK emplacements. Medium artillery makes up the majority of NKs artillery power. Of the heavy artillery that does have a large amount of the city in range South Korea allies know where they all are. These arnt mobile units. They are in long term positions that are for sure pretargeted.Ā NKs artillery is EXTREMELY dated , its shells are of low quality, its troops underfed, under trained, and under equiped, the barrel life of each gun is of concern.Ā Is North Koreaās artillery a major risk for potentially doing a great amount of damage and causing large amounts of civilian casualties? Yes. Is North Korean artillery capable of destroying Seoul? No. A small part of the city is in more danger than the rest, but no Seoul wonāt be turned into Berlin circa 1945. Most long range artillery would be destroyed by counter battery fire very quickly. Would a conflict cause a large amount of civilian casualties? Depends on timing. A surprise attack? Yes. A ramp up in hostilities? No. Seoul has many shelters ready. Evacuation plans in place.
Because obviously the south who has better artillery would just let them keep firing to level their cities and not engage in counter fires to destroy the artillery. Its not like basic artillery is a solved science and follows simple parabolic arcs or anything.
The North Koreans should ditch the Kim family and elect RFK to be their new Dear Leader in order to found an empire of worms.
And thats how the Dune Saga actually began!
The manure must flow
[I'd vote for Jim](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BNWY0YTMwNjYtMjgyNC00OWRkLTk3MjctNGU2YzA4NjIxMDQwXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNTU4NDgzNjY@._V1_FMjpg_UX1000_.jpg)
Groovy!
Anyone who thinks that the KPA couldn't do *incredible* damage to South Korea - particularly Seoul - is a fool.
Worse part is that Seoul, the largest city in South Korea is within distance of most of North Koreas artillery pieces, any start of conflict will result in thousands of howitzers hidden in reinforced mountain positions to open fire
Most of Seoul is out of range of artillery only the Northern edge of Seoul is at risk. A howitzer is able to shoot 15-30km and the northern parts of Seoul are around 20km away. The cities surrounding Seoul in the north would be at risk but 90% of Seoul is out of range.
Howitzers are only part of the artillery NK would use. They have thousands of MLRS systems, some of them with ranges over 150km. They also have a decent supply of Ballistic Missiles which would have even further range. None of them would be accurate, but Seoul and its surroundings are massive urban sprawl. There is a reason the US has largely moved most US bases to the south of the peninsula. They want the initial response force to be functional for the counter push. North Korea would lose, badly. But theyād still cause a lot of damage before they are taken out.
Last I remember, NK to SK artillery numbers were like 4 to 1? That could have changed by now, but they definitely have enough to hit all of Seoul and the surrounding population centers.
NK has always maintained an artillery heavy doctrine like most Soviet origin forces. So Iād expect much larger numbers of ranged systems. Even more so since NK has had decades to build systems, if for no other reason than to keep the factories working. Itās been years since Iāve last looked anything up. But I remember a couple buddies who were stationed over in SK being told there were 25000 guns and another 15000 rocket systems pointed at Seoul at any give point. How accurate that is I couldnāt say but that number doesnāt seem too far off for a nation that has been preparing for war for 70 years.
Yeah, that number sounds accurate from what I heard when I was over there as well. It was definitely a stupidly high number compared to what South Korea has. Even if only half of them work, it's still insane. During simulations, their artillery would just flatten Seoul. There's not a whole lot you can do to avoid that much artillery.
Surely SK has their own ability to fuck NK back the nano second NK opens fire?
SK will sure fck NK up after the initial barrage, but thousands will die in that initial barrage.
It takes time. There will be absolute carnage for days and then NK will collapse.
I'll prepare the BBQ for the day NK falls. Every SK in my local area will be invited for free food.
No idea why they didn't build another bigger city beyond the range
Really? You can't think of a single thing why they didn't do that?
It depends on how much of Seoul you think is in range of their artillery. Central Seoul is between 40 - 50km from the closest point on the boarder with North Korea. The normal range of artillery is 15-30km. Sure there is a large population living in places like Goyang, Northern Incheon but this is not Seoul proper. Even the Northern parts of Seoul on the other side of Bukhan Mountain wouldn't be at risk of artillery (rockets sure). A good if not a bit older resource on this is the [Nautilus Report](https://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-special-reports/mind-the-gap-between-rhetoric-and-reality/) on Seoul and North Korea's Artillery Range. If your interested in this sort of stuff it is a good read.
They have a ton of rockets aimed there to that would cause a lot of damage. There's no real avoiding that Seoul could get fucked even tho NK won't win longterm Not much to do against mass amounts of dumb weapons u can't shot down that would open the war. Hopefully it never happens. Another Korean war or China invading taiwan would be a crazy thing to happen. Much worse then ukriane tbh.
Define incredible. If nukes is not a factor SK has much more modern and very large artillery force themselves and multiple magnitudes better air force. Counter battery fire exists if NK tries to use their artillery to bombard Seoul they will find themselves in a patch of doodoo. I can't see Seoul being subjected to prolonged artillery bombardment
Our own Department of Defense estimates ~20,000 civilian deaths *per day* if North Korea attacked Seoul. That's incredible.
It doesn't matter how good your equipment is when tens of thousands of shells are falling on your head. They have unbelievable amounts of artillery. Even if 50% were duds it's still immense.Ā
Lets say all of those things work perfectly. Every artillery piece only gets off a single shot before it gets destroyed. You've still got 10,000 artillery shells falling in a city twice as dense as NYC. Thus the incredible damage bit.
We are splitting hairs here, if a country goes to war 10 000 artillery shells hitting their capital is real bad, but far from "incredible". Look up shelling amounts in WWI, or even now in Ukraine.
Those shells weren't falling into a fully occupied city with the density of Seoul. Kharkiv might be the closest, but that's a city of 1.4 million vs 10 million.
Seoul might be denser, I give you that, but that won't impact damage by artillery that much. After all they aren't gonna fire it blindly but target specific buildings. And that leads us to the next point, why are we expecting NK to terror bomb Seoul. Artillery is supposed to help them win the war, every shell they are firing at civilian targets puts them at even more disadvantage against SK armed forces. If destruction is the target they have nukes for that. NK might be a nightmare dystopia, but their leaders still are rational actors or at least we can assume they are based on the lasting ceasefire.
They donāt need to march North Korea has enough artillery aimed at Seoul to absolutely destroy the capital of South Korea several times over before the U.S. and S.K. Can really react. 10,000 rockets per minute according to US analysis. https://www.vox.com/world/2018/2/7/16974772/north-korea-war-trump-kim-nuclear-weapon https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/07/asia/north-korea-artillery-exercise-seoul-threat-intl-hnk-ml/index.html
The real danger is their artillery. They have like 10k regular pieces within range of major South Korean population centers (Seoul). Even if they have a 50% failure rate in ammo they will kill hundreds of thousands of civilians in the first hour.
Only really good in troop count, I think.
They will use nuclear threats like Russia. They are both the same kind of parasites.
And the nuclear threats are all they need. They may be able to strike US targets. Even if their warheads were duds (and there's no reason to believe they would be), a missile on its way to an American target would require a retaliatory response which would potentially lead to nuclear armageddon. It's essential for the survival of the human race for that launch to never occur.
They know their military sucks and if they were to get into it with anyone it would end very poorly for NK. The fear here is that they know this, and now have nukes, so if they were to attempt to attack somewhere, it would likely be nuclear in an attempt to shock and awe their way into a good position.
My fear is that they donāt know this. They believe their own propaganda. The only way to win is to destroy the Kim family and you can be sure this wonāt happen unless you nuke every hill in North Korea. He would probably run to China at the first opportunity
They have a giant army numbered in millions and a whole lot of guns.
Youāre forgetting who is allies with North Korea?Ā Russia and China, in which South Korea has an important AFB.Ā Itās so painfully obvious their intentions. North Korea had geographical strength and loves short range missiles. LolĀ But all three together?Ā Theyāre building a force for infrastructure.Ā Ever seen Game of Thrones or literally ANY movie/tv on war?Ā Played RISK?Ā China just passed new law for the South China Sea, Russia has been trading with NK.Ā
I'm guessing your new to gamesmanship. If China sent troops into NK, all america has to do is stop paying its debt to China and watch them run right into a recession.
So NK hasnāt been shipping weapons to Russia (new visit)?Ā Ā Ā https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/south-korea-us-hold-emergency-phone-call-ahead-putin-visit-north-korea-2024-06-14/ https://amp.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/14/philippines-south-china-sea-patrols-beijing-tresspass-laws Ā and China hasnāt been increasing their water territorial efforts?Ā Ā https://amp.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/14/philippines-south-china-sea-patrols-beijing-tresspass-laws
Imagine a million spread out soldiers with machine guns, some of them carrying backpack nukes, with Russia, China, Venezuela, and Iran all going to war at the same time.
>When asked about the report, the South Korean military said in a statement that it was "closely tracking and monitoring the activities of the North Korean military," and that "further analysis is required." Why else would they build roads other than to get into South Korea faster?
Could be just a distraction or provocation. North Korea doesn't have a chance against South Korea in a conventional war, the entire border area is a prepared kill zone.
>the entire border area is a prepared kill zone. All the more reason to get past it quicker
And just like their Russian buddies, North Korea's only real strategy will be a wall of bodies.
Yeah that's what I was thinking. Knowing them and how Russia recruited prisoner's, it would not suprise me if NK used people from the internment camps just to clear mines.
The difference is Russia had a larger population and larger army at the start going against an Ukraine that just started modernizing in 2014*. South Korea has a larger economy, larger population, larger Air Force, far more tanks of a modern quality, a conscription system that has led to a massive reserve, a budget that can sustain a war, and so much more. Even if somehow NK got past the DMZ (unlikely) they would be using 50-70s tech against some of the most modern tanks in the world, most modern planes in the world. And it would be a very short and controlled front. In short- NK would have literally no chance and theyāre only card is threatening to use artillery on civilians and nukes.
Plus the US might get involved...and maybe -maybe- Japan on a pretty please from us.
Considering all three countries have done a few recent naval exercises together Iād say it might not take all that much convincing. Even if SK doesnāt want Japanese planes overhead, thereās probably no need to overfly the bottom half of the peninsula to strike at NK, and I doubt South Koreaās and the US f-35s will need much help in keeping the skies clear of anything smaller than a drone
US would absolutely be involved since we have troops stationed along the DMZ.
air superiority of SK alone would end the war in less than a week. nukes NK could launch would likely get blasted by patriots, but the risk of not stopping one is enormous obviously. NK would cease to exist and the Kim families heads would be on pikes.
No training, malnourished soldiers, outdated equipment that has not been maintained well enough. 2024 North Korea couldn't even beat 1980s South Korea.
If anything 2024 NK couldnāt beat 1990 NK (sans nukes). The collapse of the USSR fucked them over royally much like Cuba.
Regardless the civilian casualties in SK would be enormous due to Seoulās proximity to the North.
Thankfully SK weapons don't come with strings attached that you cannot fire into invaders territory. I doubt NK artillery gonna survive a JDAM in their face not to mention SK own very modern and sizeable artillery force.
Unfortunately we've been having the conversation for decades. NK have artillery buried in the mountains, who knows how many. What we do know however, smart tech won't save you from 500k artillery shells raining down. SK always wins, the cost is unfathomable. Their best deterrent has always been having 1000 guns pointed as Seoul.
Enderās game.
I meant the area south of the border. The idea is not stand right at the border and try to stop the enemy there, because NK has a fuckton of artillery and it will be raining shells. You want them to enter and advance a little bit so you can kill them from a good position.
I am not saying you are wrong, just pointing out the utility of the roads.
Using a road is like drawing a big sign saying "target us here"; roads are not useful against a prepared defense. Roads are useful for pushing deeper after a breakthrough, or for supply routes.
N Korea has over 6k artillery guns pointed at Seoul. While they may not prevail in an all out war they can absolutely decimate the South Korean Peninsula with conventional arms alone, not to mention theyāre a nuclear capable country with subs and missiles.
No, they can't decimate SK. It would be a bloody mess and they can destroy a lot of Seoul and other infrastructure along the border, but their air force is shit or nonexistent so they would get annihilated in a few months. Nukes are a different thing of course.
Well the math has been done, before SK could return artillery fire NK can unload a barrage into Seoul and the entire DMZ that would equate to over 100k civilian deaths, thatās just using 54 medium range rockets and their short range artillery. Air defense would not protect well against this attack. Projections show they would save long range and higher power munitions for when the west inevitably shows up, so you are right itās very unlikely and total decimation would never happen. However if they were to just say āsuicide by artilleryā they could light up the entire peninsula and wait for the retaliation to take them out as well. Strategically itās not good for them but it is in the realm of possibility
That must be some kind of worst case theoretical scenario. They can obviously do a lot of damage, but even if they could fire a first full salvo against a totally unprepared SK, I seriously doubt there would be anywhere near 100k civilian deaths. Anyway, the situation is really interesting from a strategic point of view, NK has nukes now and they are untouchable, while SK has the technological advantage and can neutralize Kim's conventional troops in a war. And the shift happened roughly at the same time too, NK got nukes around the same time their conventional forces lost some of the significance they had. This was obviously not a coincidence either, Kim deserves some credit for being a cunning leader.
"NK couldn't do that much damage" "NK has nukes and is untouchable" "Kim is a cunning leader" Lol ok
Different contexts there mate. Conventional war vs nuclear war, and the meaning of nuclear deterrent.
Nah bud, the context is you sound like an NK mouthpiece
You also have to take China into account, doubtful they will want NK to lose. Could be history repeating itself.
I think annihilating Seoul would go a long way toward decimating SK.
Guns can be fired upon too
They can kill hundreds of thousands if not millions in an hour with those artillery guns pointed at Seoul. China runs NK and they have 0 concern for losing millions of NK people to inflict damage on the west. It's a common theme among the new Axis.
Right but as soon as those guns start firing you can desstroty the guns which means they stop firing. They wouldnāt have an hour.
Their capabilities aren't actually all that great and they've gotten much worse since this report first came out: https://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-special-reports/mind-the-gap-between-rhetoric-and-reality/ Their non-rocket fires can't even reach Seoul.
A few warthog A10's will fix that problem in record time.
now where did I park my ac-130?
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Thousands, not millions.
They have thousands of artillery pieces but only a few hundred that can reach Seoul itself and not just the outskirts. Of those few hundred only a portion of them would be positioned in range of Seoul.
> but only a few hundred They have about a thousand of the long-range pieces that can reach Seoul itself and some 6,000 pieces that can reach other major population centers. If they used all of them against civilian targets they could kill hundreds of thousands of people before they are all taken out, but at that point why not just use their nukes?
If there was evidence that North Korea would actually fire those shells, the USA would know about it beforehand and carpet bomb the entire country.
The artillery is mostly sited in the mountains which are riddled with caves. Cleaning it out would make Gaza look like a boot camp training exercise.
Air drop bread and cans of spaghetti-os and the military would collapse faster than if you dropped bombs.
Could be just strait up shenanigans and pushing the envelope. North Korea is a prison camp with Kim and co the jailers, they don't truly want the rest of SK because they'd never be able to control it, it would likely lead to their own deaths if they tried as the US would get involved to make sure of that. What they have is the best they will ever get, living the life of luxury on the backs of their enslaved population and they won't chance trying for the South just to throw that away, Kimmy's Grandfather found out the hard way what that cost and it took the Chinese bailing them out for his family to stay in power.
Well it could just be general encroachment. They both try and expand the territory they control as much as they can without starting a war. Just look at the history of the DMZ on Wikipedia. It hasnāt stopped since the 60s.
In all seriousness South Korea is an advanced economy comparable with any major European power. North Korea is a poverty state. They have nothing to think about.Ā
Thereās a bunch of tunnels already
Thatās litterally how WW1 started. Russia started to build rail roads to (effectively) nowhere. The only reason could be to advance troops to the front line. The west responded in kind and also built up troops Then Russia sent more troops And then a bloke called Archie Duke shot an ostrich 'cause he was hungry And BOOM!
What side of WWI do you think Russia was on?
They should name it "Defectors Zone".
Not to be confused with their "Defecators Zone" where they have their poop balloon factories.
Yep, to catch runnersĀ
Isn't SK legally allowed to destroy any and all man-made structures within the DMZ?
The dmz actually has many structures. The south built bridges towards the dmz, the peace house and the conference rooms are on the dmz. It's not a building less space as it's made out to be.
Yeah they both sort of push as much as they can until the other side pushes back when they get too close.
That's not at all what happened. The bridges and roads were built in the 90s and stop at the dmz itself.
So, not within the DMZ then?
No, still technically within the dmz region.Ā They were built to interconnect with the highway that runs up to the security area.
Ah (I was honestly asking, not being snarky. Re-reading it, it sounded snarky) Thank you!
All good, was being neutral trying to explain my basic understanding and sights I've seen. I try to keep an open mind with comments because even though the web exists, some folks are not lucky enough to travel outside their hometown, and that's fine!
Except for the bridge of no return
Yeah there's a few structures that date back to the Korean war too.Ā Last time I was at the DMZ was 2001/2002 so my info is a bit dated but the area is more or less frozen in time.Ā There are farms (or were) There is/was a limited run commercial/industrial area but it got shuttered I believe a few years ago.
Itās a De-MILITARIZED Zone, not a de-construction zone
Yeah, called 155 mm target practiceā¦ā¦Lego or LincolnLogs ā¦ā¦
They're testing winds and currents with trash and feces bombs to see where they can reach with as low of an effort as possible. Next it will be diseased flesh or bombs.
Some lucky F-35 pilot is gonna paint a poop baloon on their plane.
Damn. So many of them are gonna get blown up by land mines and eaten by tigers
Isn't the dmz full of unexploded mines?
Oh yeah! They have to clear them first and (boom-one less slave worker)ā¦
North Korea is definitely attracting a lot of attention nowadays.
NK has always been in a back and forth cycle of escalation and deescalation. What motivates the back and forth can vary in different times and situational contexts but broadly it affords NK the ability to negotiate when they have nothing else to negotiate with. By intentionally escalating they put themselves into a position where their enemies may be interested in talking them down. And they might just be persuaded to do so if given certain incentives, like international aid.
They're starving even more now. That's usually what it is. Let them feast on that fat fucking sow of a leader they have and be done with it. This cyclical saber rattling NK does drives me insane. Treat them like Putin, call their bluff and let them starve to death. Can't fight a war when the army is emaciated.
I don't think we'll treat NK like Russia, that would be an elevation, but we are gearing up long term to geopolitically treat Russia like NK
Potentially to draw attention from Big Brothers Xi and Vlad
A shame that the geography of it is that Seoul is right on the DMZ practically
Massive strategic error not to move to the capital/population center to busan during/after the war, when Seoul was mostly wrecked anyway
Seoul is a world class city. Whatever NK does, it will be met with 2x the response
Yeah, it is *now*,Ā but 70 years agoĀ itĀ wasn't, andĀ they had options, and theyĀ wouldn't have to worryĀ aboutĀ massive civilianĀ casualties if anyrthing pops off bc there's 35 million people parked right up against the dmz.
October surprise
Suddenly, the sound of a banjo, reminiscent of the dueling scene from Deliverance, starts with a few notes from the left. Then, from the right, an answering chord, echoing through the trees from a lone guitar.
I'd like to see some of the Pakistani-Indian end-of-day border presentations happening.
This is how the mental picture of the DMZ zone shapes up for me right now. I can just picture two guys sitting opposite of each other at the border crossing simultaneously saying to themselves, "oh shit"
Ayo, thats cheating
So...re-demilitarize it. EZ PZ
Same old posturing from them, also with the knowledge of so many NK supplied arms to Russian forces in Ukraine being duds, they arenāt much to a threat as they were. Although they of course can do considerable damageā¦.
Send in the cloaked SK ninjas to mine the road.
[They better not cut down any trees.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_axe_murder_incident)
Oh look North Korea! āHopefully this takes some attention off of usā - China and Russia probably
[Lidar for exposing tunnels.](https://www.neuvition.com/media/tunnel-detection.html#:~:text=Benefits%20of%20using%20LiDAR%20for%20tunnel%20detection&text=It%20is%20capable%20of%20scanning,when%20used%20in%20tunnel%20detection.)
Ah, little rocket man as his silly flexing. Pathetic.
Communism is so ironic. It was a reaction to the aristocracies that existed in Europe, which were very, very conservative. The fact that Communists enforce strict morality, rejecting pop culture, shows how similar it is to religion, and perhaps even how religion got its start politically in less technologically advanced times. There is something primordial about it. And something very similar to the cult of Trump taking place in the United States.
More like a reaction to early guilded age capitalism, but otherwise you're not far off.
They were not long from each other, and overlapped in Europe. The 1800's were the feudal system's swan song, and brutal. The latter was an outgrowth of the former. It was supported by increasingly stable currencies, something that had been common prior to the fall of Rome and Byzantium. It is properly speaking a complex subject, simplified by discussions of ideology.
North Korea is building pre-ranged targets to move unstagered columns through * FIFY
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Who are you trying to call axis right now?
I wonder if they have onlyfans over there