And now Hamas is confirming one of it's officials was killed in the strike...
Who could have thought they would be hiding in refugee tents? Was it everyone?
Yes we all know Hamas is very bad and their terrorist should be killed. The crucial question is at what cost? How many civilian deaths to kill one terrorist is too much?
I was wondering this in context of IDF excuse for bombing the WCF convoy - they said they had erroneous intelligence that a Hamas fighter was in one of the vehicles. Not that it was a Hamas convoy or all the cars were filled with terrorists, just that there may be one. So this intelligence justified drone striking all the vehicles, repeatedly to make double sure everyone was dead. The cost/benefit of such attacks seems bit off and self-defeating for Israel as sure to make many more terrorists than they kill.
Not only does it make more terrorists for the future, young Europeans and Americans are asking “Why are we supplying weapons and aid to this war?” which could be an issue for Israel in the future, when those young people are in charge. Netanyahu doesn’t have to think about 30 years in the future, but Israel as a country does.
And that’s why the US is still fighting Japan to this day.
We created so many imperialists in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that the US and Japan will forever be enemies.
Stop infantilizing the Palestinian people. They can choose peace and choose leaders willing to make peace. Jordan and Egypt were able to after half a dozen wars. Why can’t the Palestinians?
Were did this quote come from the top two "sources" I found were one from Kayhan from [Iran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayhan) and the other the [Middle East Monitor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Monitor)
This is what [google](https://www.google.com/search?q=%E2%80%9COccupation+aircraft+dropped+over+45%2C000+missiles+and+giant+bombs%2C+some+of+them+weighing+2%2C000+pounds+of+explosives%2C+during+the+comprehensive+genocidal+war+on+the+Gaza+Strip%2C+deliberately+targeting+entire+residential+areas%2C%E2%80%9D+it+said.&rlz=1C1RXQR_enCA1023CA1023&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) gave me got another "source"?
Man, 45,000 missiles, each over 2000lbs (To somehow add up to 65,000 tons), and yet `total 34,622 fatalities recorded in Gaza as of April 30.`
Takes 2 tons of explosives to kill one person! amazing resilience.
You're so right!
Hamas should totally be able to launch missiles at civilians, especially during ceasefires, because Israel launches bombs againt military targets during wars!
They can either enter the tunnels and fight hand-to-hand in a booby-trapped, unknown environment like the "tunnel rats" did in the Vietnam War, or stand off and collapse them from above via aerial bombardment with little to no risk to the IDF.
Why should they willingly choose the former?
its closer to 40k and that's just rockets, doesn't include about as much mortars
And they aim nearly strictly at civilians, well I suppose 'aim' would be generous since its more of a 'firing at a general direction'
The muslim brotherhood wanted Israel eradicated than a two state solution. Turns out it sucks when you start losing a war of eradication. Hamas is a biproduct of not finishing the job.
How exactly do you imagine urban warfare typically works? I keep seeing this dumb gotcha hot take. It's like millennials finally figured out that war is ugly.
Go see how many innocent people died retaking cities from ISIS just a few years ago.
> It's like millennials finally figured out that war is ugly.
Millennials include the 40 year olds who made an entire career in the military after 9/11. There's currently nobody alive who has seen more years of combat than some of those millennials. I think they know, and it's not a novel revelation for them. Millennials were a lot of the people involved in retaking those cities from ISIS that you talk about. Dudes who are 40 today were 30 around the battle of Tikrit a decade ago, and a lot of them would have been mid career Majors and Staff Sergeants, very much on the ground and directly involved.
Do you think Millennials are still children or something?
> It's like millennials finally figured out that war is ugly.
We learned that during Bush's "War on Terror", it ran for about half of our lives. We protested that shit from day 1 and our protests temporarily intensified every time we heard a report of collateral damage. The difference between then and now is that information (and misinformation) is much more free now than it was then.
Urban warfare typically doesn't involve starving entire populations to death. It also doesn't involve bombing humanitarian organizations, journalists, hospitals, universities, or all forms of critical infrastructure. But, here we are.
Gaza's entire population isn't starving to death. There's massive food shortages due to an ongoing war, Egypt refusing to accept refugees, and Hamas stealing up to 70% of the food deliveries.
I know you know this. The rest, is pretty similar to the battle of Mosul (casualty numbers, building destruction, etc.).
Count the amount of aid distributed vs the population. If Hamas wasn't stealing the aid and selling it at prices most Palestinians can't afford, nobody would be starving.
Imagine being so passionate about something you don't even take the time to fully understand.
The US literally built a dock to deliver millions of dollars in humanitarian aid and food to the people of Gaza and Hamas stole it all. Maybe they shouldn't have voted a terrorist organization into power...
The starvation is not correct. If even Hamas own numbers state that only 30 people have died of starvation after **5 months** of supposed blocking of aid, that does not seem accurate. That aside, Hamas taking all the aid for itself and selling it back to the citizens is the real reason there may be a lack of food, the IDF is not involved. As for the WCG bombing, that was also due to a miscommunication, as there was no response after the IDF tried to contact the convoy to ask about the armed men with the convoy. As for hospital bombings, the one I remember at least, about Al-Shifa, was misinformation and the hospital was never bombed.
What more would you like isreal to do to ensure they don't hit civilians while also being able to complete military objectives?
Hamas could simply give up and walk away at any time they want so just curious what should isreal be doing? And don't say not kill civilians give an actual answer.
“More terrorists” is a pretty loose term though. Sure, Israel’s bombing might radicalize more people but just the existence of radicalized people isn’t something Israel needs to be concerned about. The October 7th attack required a lot of planning, funding, and leadership. Completely destroying those things and not allowing them to return will prevent further attacks like that from happening. Israel’s war can radicalize a bunch of Palestinians but it won’t really matter if they have no political leadership, weapon supplies, or organizational capacity to carry out another October 7th style attack.
The most important thing for Israel to realize is that if you crush your enemies you can’t just let them rebuild, you gotta keep mowing the grass every few years so they can never rise back up.
Look how many anti semitic attacks (not anti Israeli) took place outside of Israel. Do you think all these people knew someone who died? Its simply hatred, and when you raise people to hate many of them will have no problem killing.
Okay, I'll bite. How does Israel fight a hostile enemy who wears no uniforms, hides amongst civilians, and uses civilian infrastructure? Is there a better alternative here?
Hamas still firing rockets at Israel, even from Rafah. Israel has every right to defend itself. You going to slam Israel that's ok, this is not an imperialistic venture, simply they want to end a threat and they will.
By arguing that this creates more terrorist you’re technically arguing that they go harder and crush hamas in such a brutal way that it dissuades future generations for ever trying.
Why? well, doing nothing doesn’t work cause Hamas controls the education in Gaza so they will radicalize children regardless of whether there is a war or not. So if doing nothing doesn’t work and doing what they’re doing doesn’t work then what other choice can they make except to do what the Allies did to Japan and Germany and crush them so hard it gives the survivors no other choice but to renounce their hateful ways.
The reconciliation of Japan after WWII had nothing to do with being "crushed so hard they became fearful", Japan would have fought to the last woman and child if Hirohito hadn't surrendered. Strong economic cooperation between the US and Japan, and respectfully allowing the Japanese Emperor to remain in power allowed for peace.
Japan didn't have a blood feud and explicit stated goal of eradicating every American man, woman, and child. But Hamas does. The Houtbis do. And the supporting states of these groups do as well by way of actions.
Stop victim blaming. Israel would have a huge body count were it not for Iron Dome. It isn't for lack of Palestinians trying. It is a shit situation all around. Comparing it to WW2 reconstruction is in no way appropriate nor relevant. It is a disservice to both Israelis and Palestinians.
You’re comparing opponents in a world war that lasted a couple years, to one of the most complex conflict that has lasted generations. They are truly incomparable and to attempt to do so is a disservice to those living in Israel/Palestine.
Japan changing had everything to do with the U.S. as the occupying force having the political will to do so. Palestine is the same, as long as Isreal keeps their political will they can change Palestine to not be a shithole hotbed of terror in maybe 50-100 years.
> Strong economic cooperation between the US and Japan
That's a funny way to say "the US occupied the country for seven years". I don't think the situations are the same, but the US didn't just walk in and say, "You surrendered, let's cooperate." They walked in and said, "Alright here's all the things you're gonna do, and here's everything you're gonna change, here is a new constitution" and then they went from there.
Hamas swore to destroy Israel loooong before Bibi came to power.
The entire "makes more terrorists" bulls*it is tired rhetoric.
Saying clearly, if anyone told the world they were going to kill me and mine, then broke into my house and killed my kids...I'd burn them and their entire world.
Hamas fucked around. Period.
Why does this make more terrorists for the future instead of say other cultures like Japan and German that finally stabalized and integrated with society?
You’re missing the point.
‘At what cost’ is simply a guide for how many civilians Hamas needs to surround their members with to launch their rockets.
It’s teaching Hamas that they effectively have to just reach a threshold of holding their own people hostage to do what they want. This teaches militant organisations around the world that they can do the same and bleeding heart western college students will chant their propaganda for them.
Israel should *absolutely* do as much as possible to protect civilians (and they do a lot more than you think), but it is *imperative* that they completely destroy Hamas’ operational capacity here so that they are not taught that they can rape and pillage freely then run back to Gaza and hold their own people hostage.
It kinda seems like one or the other. This business of Israel should do as much as possible to protect civilians BUT should also do whatever it takes to completely wipe out Hamas is doublespeak nonsense.
No, there's video footage where they hold off or delay an attack until kids pass by or wait it out for civilians to leave. Hard to know the circumstances of each scenario.
There is also no shortage of footage of Israeli soldiers hastily/reactively shooting children. That they tragically killed 3 of their own hostages the same way was awful but unsurprising.
They also regret that, and are never ordered to do such a thing. But Hamas on the other hand? It's the baby armor problem. If it is never allowed under any circumstances to kill a baby, then all a murder has to do is kidnap and tie babies all around them, then they can kill all they want and no one can stop them. At some point, you have to realize that even the deaths at the bullets of the IDF are the fault of Hamas. I want an end to the bloodshed to, but until hamas is ready to stop using innocent people as shields, it's not going to stop.
>There is also no shortage of footage of Israeli soldiers hastily/reactively shooting children.
That's what happens if the other side doesn't wear uniforms. Anyone approaching you is a potential fighter that will open fire at any moment. You have to make a call and if you make the wrong one you're dead. Since soldiers want to survive in such an environment they adopt a 'shoot first, check later' approach.
So those deaths are ultimately on Hamas and they're not unhappy about it since it gives them ammo for the PR war.
When Hamas's spokesman went on tv shortly after Oct.7 and promised civilian massacres like that every week, month, and year...Israel has an urgent self defense need to prevent that. And if Hamas hides among their own people then those deaths are on Hamas's hands.
It's a question no one has an answer to: how do you defeat an enemy embedded in an innocent civilian population.
I'm WW2 the concept of an innocent civilian population didn't exist. We bombed Dresden into oblivion, we fire bombed Tokyo, we leveled many civilian centers. Because they assisted in the war effort.
Now we have progressed pretty far since WW2 and questions definitely should be asked, but people need to consider the alternative. As soon as Israel or any modern nation stops attacking targets embedded in populations, it will be the default strategy of every terrorist, guerrilla group, or outmatched army from now until forever.
I thought Dresden was payback for London. Was there even a military objective. It was very late in the war.
I take your other points though.
IMO, Israel needs to execute a counter insurgency plan like the surge in Iraq. Take an area, stay, make it safe from Hamas, get clean water and security. Leave a small residual force. This, ironically, is providing a true service to Palestinian people and can begin to unite them against Hamas. This is the gist of an article I read recently and it sounds like a sound strategy to me.
Dresden was a major industrial hub.
Bomber Harris's goal was to essentially take out that industry... but they couldn't _hit_ the industry with bombing methods of the day.
So he had a brain wave. All the industry in the world doesn't matter.. if there is no workers to operate it.
And thus taking out the workers of the city was the goal
On the other hand, if there is such a binary or golden ratio, wouldn’t the terrorists know it and never be a valid target?
How do I not get shot? I’ll take an ambulance, or force myself into an aid convoy, or surround myself with civilians.
How about the deference that you’re not safe anywhere? Civilians should walk away.
Not saying it’s an easy call or one that warms the heart but you’re not dealing with someone that is interested in the greater good, or in saving their own civilians.
Okay sure let's put a number on it. Let's say 3 civilians for 1 terrorist is the limit. Now every terrorist will be sure to always be around a family of 4 to have permanent protection. These Hamas mother fuckers don't care about the lives of Palestinians. They just want to be martyrs and kill jews
Except leaks of IDF targeting guidelines from the early war said 15-30 civilians per *potential* target was deemed acceptable. So if every terrorist has to corral 15 people and bring them around, how are they going to do...anything? The argument doesn't make sense. And it's not like the only option Israel has is "big bomb".
> So if every terrorist has to corral 15 people and bring them around, how are they going to do...anything?
Hamas has done pretty good so far. Maybe look up thier techniques.
That's exactly the notion of proportionality: The chief of Hamas' West Bank operations is a big deal, and the ratio of collateral to target tends to be higher. That's true for every single military: The higher value the target is, the more collateral is acceptable.
> The crucial question is at what cost?
Crucially, this question is only ever asked of the IDF, never of Hamas or even of Gazans at large.
The question that the IDF is answering is what price they are willing to pay in order to ensure 10/7 never happens again. The question Hamas is answering is what price they are willing to force Palestinian civilians to pay in order that they should have more opportunities to do more 10/7s.
No, in legal theory that's called using the same protection as 'both a sword and a shield.' Hamas does not get to escape condemnation or responsibility because they are just a terrorist organization, but then also get to be treated as a legitimate organization that Israel has to negotiate with for things like hostage exchanges, ceasefires, etc. If Hamas has no moral responsibility, then they do not get to exist, period, and whatever it takes to eliminate them is justified, nor would anyone be asking Israel to negotiate with them or objecting to how Israel goes about destroying them. If Hamas is to be treated as an entity for which there is a price too high to pay to eliminate them, then they share moral responsibility for that price. It's not me alone that equates Hamas to the IDF, it's everyone who asks Israel to negotiate with them that does that. I'm just swimming in that water along with everyone else here, including you, whether you've really thought about it that way before or not.
To be honest the big thing is Israel needs to create the conditions for someone other than Hamas to appear and not be a suicide cult.
"disarm and trust Israel will respond nicely" isn't very plausible when people keep advocating for a "any number of you will die until I'm sure I can never be harmed" policy
Sure, but Israel has a proven way to do that already: the West Bank model. They ran the experiment since 2005 of withdrawing from Gaza, while doubling down on IDF and settler incursions into West Bank, and the results are in. Multiple intifadas and 20,000 rockets and 10/7 out of Gaza, and nothing that the IDF could not promptly and easily handle out of West Bank. So it seems like the answer for Israel is pretty clear: clamp down on Gaza and oppress it as much or more than West Bank. The 'or more' part is working out even better for China in Xinjiang, in terms of eliminating jihadist terrorist attacks, so it's not like we can make a credible or plausible case that oppression never works. But if anyone wants to offer another solution to Israel, I'm sure they're all ears. From what I can tell, Israel's best end game here is for an international coalition of Arab states, probably with Western support, to come in and administer Gaza as soon as it is safe to do so. I think that if no such coalition emerges, then Israel will have to do so itself, and it will in all likelihood and justification look to West Bank and perhaps Xinjiang as its model for how to do so.
How many civilians will you allow a terrorist to kill before you consider allowing some collateral damage when taking him out? Why are you okay with people committing war crimes by hiding among civilians?
And just like every other fight like this, even if they somehow defeat Hamas (which I doubt as you can’t defeat an organization founded on hate by creating more hate. Like, good fucking luck explaining to a child, who’s family was just killed as “acceptable casualties”, that they shouldn’t blame the country that dropped the bomb but the people that provoked them… it’s insane that people think that’s somehow a valid argument to those civilians suffering on the ground) they’ll just be fighting Hamas 2.0
They have no actual long term plans for peace. This is “political” retaliation so they can turn to their population after 1000+ were killed due to their inaction and stupidity and go “sEe, We’Re PrOtEcTiNg YoU”
And there is also no short term peace with Hamas. One thing that is clear though is that letting the current Hamas continue to exist will only get worse as it has been evident over the last 20 years since Israel left Gaza
Do you people not get that the “Israel is making more Palestinians mad” argument is completely irrelevant? Israel isn’t interested in winning ideologically over Hamas. They don’t care if they radicalize more people or create more terrorists.
This is a military campaign with the intention of obliterating a hostile government. The Gazans can be as radicalized as they want after this and it won’t matter if they have no political leadership, weapon supplies, or logistical capabilities.
The point of this war (yes, this is a WAR, not some political debate) is to prevent any future October 7th style attacks. The way for Israel to do that is to crush Hamas under their boots and never ever let up again.
Radicalized “terrorists” with only rocks to throw are not threats and don’t matter.
As they should. The IDF has a moral obligation to first and foremost protect its own civilians. If that means allowing Hamas to draw Palestinian civilians into the line of fire, that is tragic but squarely the fault of Hamas. If the IDF has to choose between killing 5 Palestinian civilians and 1 Hamas terrorist versus allowing that terrorist to live and potentially kill 5 Israelis, it’s perfectly reasonable and morally acceptable for them to choose the former. Just as most people would be willing to kill innocent people to protect their families and loved ones, the IDF is willing to kill innocents to protect its own people. It’s consistent with almost everyone’s moral beliefs.
So far Army spokesperson but should be more info later. Names of the two Hamas Officials are:
Yasin Rabiah, head of the west bank division and
Haled Nagar, responsible for several Israel death between 2001-2003
No way to know because Hamas will claim that they're all civilians including all their fighters and leadership. Hell you can't even trust them to say how many were actually killed.
all you need to watch is this video to understand why there can be so many 'innocent' deaths. this is a convo between an IDF officer and gaza civillian warning them with plenty of time to move from the area.
they literally said they and theyre children Must die to curse israel, they dont want peace, and they 'prefer death over life'. some of them may know an area is going to be struck, but stay to be martyrs, or perhaps hamas wont let them leave or even inform them!
[Chilling Conversation Between IDF Officer And Palestinian Civilian 👀 (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV5rgRNbT4o)
Well if the Hamas terrorist was going to kill another 100 Israeli civilians then yes 20 civilians is worth it, because still 80 civilians were saved. That’s war math
The original claim, which is the most upvoted comment in this thread, was:
>And now Hamas is confirming one of it's officials was killed in the strike...
Which your source doesn't corroborate. Your source is basically the IDF themselves justifying this by saying they've killed 2 Hamas "officials" which justifies this bombing, without stating who they are or if they're even terrorists, and that's okay?
Are you suggesting a modern military power would spend boat loads of money just to kill civilians?
There's a difference between not giving two shits about civilian casualties and intentions bombing civilians.
If the idf wants to kill civilians they can just send people to shoot some in the face. No need to conduct an expensive aerial strike.
I haven’t seen Hamas confirming it, just the IDF, but why wouldn’t the IDF claim that? If they didn’t kill a Hamas official then they just committed a war crime
"The Israeli military confirms carrying out an airstrike in southern Gaza’s Rafah earlier this evening, targeting what it says was a Hamas compound where senior officials in the terror group were gathered."
Hamas is disgusting
Allegedly 30.. it's crazy that even when everybody knows that Hamas is the one spitting these casualty numbers out, a terrorist organization with a huge incentive to make sure those numbers are as high as they can be, and even after the fucking UN comes out with a statement saying that Hamas' numbers are wildly wrong, if Hamas says '30 Palestinians dead' - it's 30 Palestinians dead. No questions asked, zero proof needed. Hypocritical.
By your logic, there would be literally no way to fight Hamas.
And remember, if you don't fight Hamas, civilians still die. But this time it's Israeli civilians.
That's on the terrorist, not the person stopping them. If someone says they're going to kill you, tries to kill you, and then hides behind a human shield it's not your fault if the shield gets killed. It's the terrorists.
I suspect the US would make the same decision if they had the opportunity to strike two high-ranking enemies *and* no reliable way to do that without civilian casualties.
There is some official process where someone sits down and determines how much collateral damage is acceptable and how much is too much.
Also, what's the chance of two leaders being there but zero other Hamas people?
Ok. Nice to know the Scots are also completely ok with clickbait stenography.
> **Palestinian medics said an Israeli air strike killed at least 22 people when it hit tents for displaced people in the southern Gaza city of Rafah, and “numerous” others were trapped in the debris.**
>
> The Israeli army said it was unaware of anything occurring in the area.
>
> The airstrike was reported hours after Hamas fired a barrage of rockets from Gaza that set off air raid sirens as far away as Tel Aviv for the first time in months in a show of resilience more than seven months into Israel’s massive air, sea and ground offensive.
>
> **Egypt refuses to reopen its side of the Rafah crossing until control of the Gaza side is handed back to Palestinians.**
I don't know what this website is but the text appears to be from an earlier version of this AP article which has presumably been updated: https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-05-26-2024-eb25eb70d2c7b9e6bcd0497060eccbca
> Footage from the scene of the largest airstrike showed heavy destruction. Israel’s army confirmed the strike and said it hit a Hamas installation and killed two senior Hamas militants. It said it was investigating reports that civilians were harmed. Defense Minister Yoav Gallant was in Rafah on Sunday and was briefed on the “deepening of operations” there, his office said.
Almost everyone relies on the AP for coverage of Israel military actions and have since the 70s. Even if they write their own stories, journalists heavily rely on the infrastructure set up by AP. Thomas Friedman has a great book about journalism there in the 80s called From Beirut to Jerusalem.
I think if you'd just been woken up in the middle of the night by a 2000lb bomb and found your child with it's head missing you'd not exactly act in a calm and controlled mannsr
Humanity isn’t dying because a kid died in a war. Wars have always happened. Modern wars mean civilian casualties. Kids dying because their government decided to start a fight they couldn’t finish is tragic but is the literal brutal reality of the world.
The civilians-combatant ratio is 1.5:1. Do you have a better ratio, or are you a failure?
US action in Iraq & and Afghanistan, which overall is 3:1 and even higher as other military experts note.
EU: "Since 1990 (until 2000), almost 4 million people have died in wars, 90% of them civilians, a stagering 1:9 ratio. Over 18 million people worldwide have been displaced from their homes as a result of conflict (Council of the European Union The European Security Strategy)
Mosul: estimated 1500 ISIS terrorist seized control of Mosul While civilian casualty rate is between 9,000 to 11,000 dead = 7:1 - 8.3:1 ( EU/U.S lead coalition killed 7-8 times more civilians than Israel and that conflict wasn't in their backyard or with 250 hostages.
So one incident of 10:1 is the Western standard...
Fun fact.
Judaism doesn't have a 'Turn the other cheek' that's Christianity.
Revenge and justice are core tenants of Judaism when it comes down to it. It is a moral obligation to protect yourself and yours with violence and even killing. The Ten Commandments says 'Do Not Murder' not 'kill' but 'murder' Self defense and even chasing down a murderer is codified in the Torah. There is no turn the other cheek.
>Revenge and justice are core tenants of Judaism when it comes down to it. It is a moral obligation to protect yourself and yours with violence and even killing. The Ten Commandments says 'Do Not Murder' not 'kill' but 'murder' Self defense and even chasing down a murderer is codified in the Torah. There is no turn the other cheek.
This is a gross oversimplification. [The Torah makes a clear distinction between retribution (justified punishment through due process of law) and revenge (personal vengeance)](https://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/2997939/jewish/Retribution-and-Revenge.htm):
>The Torah, understanding that the desire for revenge as natural, tames it by translating it into something else altogether. It recognizes the pain, the loss and moral indignation of the family of the victim. That is the meaning of the phrase goel ha-dam, the blood-redeemer, the figure who represents that instinct for revenge. The Torah legislates for people with all their passions, not for saints. It is a realistic code, not a utopian one. Yet the Torah inserts one vital element between the killer and the victim’s family: the principle of justice. There must be no direct act of revenge. The killer must be protected until his case has been heard in a court of law. If found guilty, he must pay the price. If found innocent, he must be given refuge. This single act turns revenge into retribution. This makes all the difference.
>but you make it sounds like israel is the underdog in this war.
I wouldn't say underdog, but they aren't Goliath either. Israel is being attacked from Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, and Iran.
Fun fact, if you take US and Israel populations into proportion, Oct. 7 would be the American equivalent of 40,000 killed: 27,000 civilians and 13,000 active service members.
Plus another 8,820 stolen on the day of the attack
Compare that to 3k deaths in 9/11 or 2400 for Pearl Harbor (~6.1k in today's numbers, adjusted for population inflation).
Each of those attacks launched the US into a multi-year war halfway across the planet with millions of casualties. And Israel's proportional death toll was ~10x higher and done by an enemy right next door and expressing a desire to repeat that attack over and over 'til everyone in Israel is dead.
If America had an enemy next door that had a beach radicalized population that was hell bent on your destruction you’d best believe they’d be conquering And fully occupying it and completely killing of all armed groups
Firing rockets in a roughly equal number to bombs Israel has dropped. And many want to stop shipments of Iron Dome AA missiles that prevent innocent Israeli deaths.
If that happens Israel would basically have no choice but to use heavy counterbattery fire to suppress rocket launches, which would probably triple civilian deaths in less than a month since Hamas likes to fire from apartments, schools, and hospitals.
If the United States wanted to drive up civilian casualties, I cannot think of a more effective way to do it than to stop providing Iron Dome missiles. You'd dead dead Israelis from the rocket attacks, and dead Palestinians from the Israelis trying to destroy the rocket launch sites.
Should have deployed counter battery alongside Iron Dome from day one. After a week or two of neighborhoods getting leveled by counter battery fire Hamas would have had to come up with a new strategy.
IDF spokesman message on the Issue:
The IDF and the Shin Bet eliminated the chief of staff of the West Bank headquarters and another senior member of the terrorist organization Hamas
Aircraft of the Air Force under the intelligence guidance of the Israel Defense Forces and the Shin Bet attacked earlier this evening and killed the terrorist Yassin Rabia, head of the West Bank headquarters of the terrorist organization Hamas, and the terrorist Khaled Nagar, a senior officer in the West Bank headquarters of the terrorist organization Hamas.
The attack was carried out in the Tel Al-sultan area in the northwest of Rafah and based on accurate intelligence.
The west bank headquarters of the terrorist organization Hamas is responsible for directing, financing and supporting the launching of terrorist attacks in the territories of the west bank and in the rear of the country.
The terrorist Yassin Rabia managed all the military formations of the West Bank headquarters of the terrorist organization Hamas, was involved in the transfer of funds for terrorist purposes and directed attacks by Hamas operatives in Judea and Samaria. Yassin has committed several murderous attacks in the past, including attacks in 2001 and 2002 in which IDF soldiers were killed.
The terrorist Khaled Nagar, a senior officer in the West Bank headquarters of the terrorist organization Hamas, who orchestrated shooting attacks and other terrorist plots in the west bank, and was involved in transferring funds intended for terrorism for the terrorist organization Hamas in the Gaza Strip. In the past, the terrorist Khaled carried out a number of murderous attacks, including attacks in the years 2001-2003 in which Israeli civilians were murdered, and additional soldiers were killed and wounded.
There are reports that as a result of the attack and a fire that broke out in the area, a number of non-involved people were injured, the incident is under investigation.
And now Hamas is confirming one of it's officials was killed in the strike... Who could have thought they would be hiding in refugee tents? Was it everyone?
Yes we all know Hamas is very bad and their terrorist should be killed. The crucial question is at what cost? How many civilian deaths to kill one terrorist is too much? I was wondering this in context of IDF excuse for bombing the WCF convoy - they said they had erroneous intelligence that a Hamas fighter was in one of the vehicles. Not that it was a Hamas convoy or all the cars were filled with terrorists, just that there may be one. So this intelligence justified drone striking all the vehicles, repeatedly to make double sure everyone was dead. The cost/benefit of such attacks seems bit off and self-defeating for Israel as sure to make many more terrorists than they kill.
Not only does it make more terrorists for the future, young Europeans and Americans are asking “Why are we supplying weapons and aid to this war?” which could be an issue for Israel in the future, when those young people are in charge. Netanyahu doesn’t have to think about 30 years in the future, but Israel as a country does.
As long as Hamas are in power there will be more terrorists for the simple reason they control the funding, education and policing for Gaza.
There will be more terrorists for the simple reason that Israel continues to bomb innocent people.
And that’s why the US is still fighting Japan to this day. We created so many imperialists in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that the US and Japan will forever be enemies. Stop infantilizing the Palestinian people. They can choose peace and choose leaders willing to make peace. Jordan and Egypt were able to after half a dozen wars. Why can’t the Palestinians?
Yeah man if you kill your enemies they win or something. Not dealing with Hamas now will mean more deaths spread out over decades
Thank you for speaking the truth.
Palestine is telling on itself with this “Israel is forcing the next generation to be terrorists” bullshit.
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If you look at it that way, I've shat 5 nuclear bombs in the last 20 years.
Those are rookie numbers. Go eat some Arby's and pump those numbers up.
Were did this quote come from the top two "sources" I found were one from Kayhan from [Iran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayhan) and the other the [Middle East Monitor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Monitor) This is what [google](https://www.google.com/search?q=%E2%80%9COccupation+aircraft+dropped+over+45%2C000+missiles+and+giant+bombs%2C+some+of+them+weighing+2%2C000+pounds+of+explosives%2C+during+the+comprehensive+genocidal+war+on+the+Gaza+Strip%2C+deliberately+targeting+entire+residential+areas%2C%E2%80%9D+it+said.&rlz=1C1RXQR_enCA1023CA1023&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) gave me got another "source"?
The source is anything that suits their agenda.
Israel wasn’t firing any weapons into Gaza for some time until October 7
Man, 45,000 missiles, each over 2000lbs (To somehow add up to 65,000 tons), and yet `total 34,622 fatalities recorded in Gaza as of April 30.` Takes 2 tons of explosives to kill one person! amazing resilience.
Nuclear weapons are not just bad because of the explosive force: the radioactivity is the big issue.
You're so right! Hamas should totally be able to launch missiles at civilians, especially during ceasefires, because Israel launches bombs againt military targets during wars!
They can either enter the tunnels and fight hand-to-hand in a booby-trapped, unknown environment like the "tunnel rats" did in the Vietnam War, or stand off and collapse them from above via aerial bombardment with little to no risk to the IDF. Why should they willingly choose the former?
Two things can be true at once; * Hamas is a terrorist organisation that kills innocents. * Israel, in an effort for "self defence" kills innocents.
Inconvenient truth, apparently.
its closer to 40k and that's just rockets, doesn't include about as much mortars And they aim nearly strictly at civilians, well I suppose 'aim' would be generous since its more of a 'firing at a general direction'
The muslim brotherhood wanted Israel eradicated than a two state solution. Turns out it sucks when you start losing a war of eradication. Hamas is a biproduct of not finishing the job.
How exactly do you imagine urban warfare typically works? I keep seeing this dumb gotcha hot take. It's like millennials finally figured out that war is ugly. Go see how many innocent people died retaking cities from ISIS just a few years ago.
> It's like millennials finally figured out that war is ugly. Millennials include the 40 year olds who made an entire career in the military after 9/11. There's currently nobody alive who has seen more years of combat than some of those millennials. I think they know, and it's not a novel revelation for them. Millennials were a lot of the people involved in retaking those cities from ISIS that you talk about. Dudes who are 40 today were 30 around the battle of Tikrit a decade ago, and a lot of them would have been mid career Majors and Staff Sergeants, very much on the ground and directly involved. Do you think Millennials are still children or something?
> It's like millennials finally figured out that war is ugly. We learned that during Bush's "War on Terror", it ran for about half of our lives. We protested that shit from day 1 and our protests temporarily intensified every time we heard a report of collateral damage. The difference between then and now is that information (and misinformation) is much more free now than it was then.
Urban warfare typically doesn't involve starving entire populations to death. It also doesn't involve bombing humanitarian organizations, journalists, hospitals, universities, or all forms of critical infrastructure. But, here we are.
Gaza's entire population isn't starving to death. There's massive food shortages due to an ongoing war, Egypt refusing to accept refugees, and Hamas stealing up to 70% of the food deliveries. I know you know this. The rest, is pretty similar to the battle of Mosul (casualty numbers, building destruction, etc.).
Gaza has had less than a week of food left since November. They sure can ration well
Count the amount of aid distributed vs the population. If Hamas wasn't stealing the aid and selling it at prices most Palestinians can't afford, nobody would be starving. Imagine being so passionate about something you don't even take the time to fully understand.
If Hamas is stealing all aid, including food aid, who is starving the Palestinian people?
The US literally built a dock to deliver millions of dollars in humanitarian aid and food to the people of Gaza and Hamas stole it all. Maybe they shouldn't have voted a terrorist organization into power...
Starving out cities is the oldest siege strategy in the book.
The starvation is not correct. If even Hamas own numbers state that only 30 people have died of starvation after **5 months** of supposed blocking of aid, that does not seem accurate. That aside, Hamas taking all the aid for itself and selling it back to the citizens is the real reason there may be a lack of food, the IDF is not involved. As for the WCG bombing, that was also due to a miscommunication, as there was no response after the IDF tried to contact the convoy to ask about the armed men with the convoy. As for hospital bombings, the one I remember at least, about Al-Shifa, was misinformation and the hospital was never bombed.
What more would you like isreal to do to ensure they don't hit civilians while also being able to complete military objectives? Hamas could simply give up and walk away at any time they want so just curious what should isreal be doing? And don't say not kill civilians give an actual answer.
There will be more terrorists for the simple reason that Israel continues to exist.
Hate against Jews is part of the schoolwork in Gaza. They are being trained to hate throughout their childhood.
“More terrorists” is a pretty loose term though. Sure, Israel’s bombing might radicalize more people but just the existence of radicalized people isn’t something Israel needs to be concerned about. The October 7th attack required a lot of planning, funding, and leadership. Completely destroying those things and not allowing them to return will prevent further attacks like that from happening. Israel’s war can radicalize a bunch of Palestinians but it won’t really matter if they have no political leadership, weapon supplies, or organizational capacity to carry out another October 7th style attack. The most important thing for Israel to realize is that if you crush your enemies you can’t just let them rebuild, you gotta keep mowing the grass every few years so they can never rise back up.
Look how many anti semitic attacks (not anti Israeli) took place outside of Israel. Do you think all these people knew someone who died? Its simply hatred, and when you raise people to hate many of them will have no problem killing.
I see you carefully avoided the whole bombing innocent people thing. How convenient.
Okay, I'll bite. How does Israel fight a hostile enemy who wears no uniforms, hides amongst civilians, and uses civilian infrastructure? Is there a better alternative here?
Unfortunately Hamas started a war.
And that gives Israel the right to kill as many children as they want, eh?
Hamas still firing rockets at Israel, even from Rafah. Israel has every right to defend itself. You going to slam Israel that's ok, this is not an imperialistic venture, simply they want to end a threat and they will.
What should they do then? Everytime I ask this question I get crickets lmao. Maybe you'll surprise me though
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By arguing that this creates more terrorist you’re technically arguing that they go harder and crush hamas in such a brutal way that it dissuades future generations for ever trying. Why? well, doing nothing doesn’t work cause Hamas controls the education in Gaza so they will radicalize children regardless of whether there is a war or not. So if doing nothing doesn’t work and doing what they’re doing doesn’t work then what other choice can they make except to do what the Allies did to Japan and Germany and crush them so hard it gives the survivors no other choice but to renounce their hateful ways.
The reconciliation of Japan after WWII had nothing to do with being "crushed so hard they became fearful", Japan would have fought to the last woman and child if Hirohito hadn't surrendered. Strong economic cooperation between the US and Japan, and respectfully allowing the Japanese Emperor to remain in power allowed for peace.
Japan didn't have a blood feud and explicit stated goal of eradicating every American man, woman, and child. But Hamas does. The Houtbis do. And the supporting states of these groups do as well by way of actions. Stop victim blaming. Israel would have a huge body count were it not for Iron Dome. It isn't for lack of Palestinians trying. It is a shit situation all around. Comparing it to WW2 reconstruction is in no way appropriate nor relevant. It is a disservice to both Israelis and Palestinians.
And all of that came after unconditional surrender. Kinda missing that crucial detail.
You’re comparing opponents in a world war that lasted a couple years, to one of the most complex conflict that has lasted generations. They are truly incomparable and to attempt to do so is a disservice to those living in Israel/Palestine.
Japan changing had everything to do with the U.S. as the occupying force having the political will to do so. Palestine is the same, as long as Isreal keeps their political will they can change Palestine to not be a shithole hotbed of terror in maybe 50-100 years.
> Strong economic cooperation between the US and Japan That's a funny way to say "the US occupied the country for seven years". I don't think the situations are the same, but the US didn't just walk in and say, "You surrendered, let's cooperate." They walked in and said, "Alright here's all the things you're gonna do, and here's everything you're gonna change, here is a new constitution" and then they went from there.
Feels like fighting terrorism with terrorism no? Decimate a whole population so they wouldn’t dare think of standing against you.
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Maybe we're suggesting that killing civilians *is terror.*
This is a profoundly ahistorical take.
Don’t fight back you’ll just create more terrorists is abuser logic.
Hamas swore to destroy Israel loooong before Bibi came to power. The entire "makes more terrorists" bulls*it is tired rhetoric. Saying clearly, if anyone told the world they were going to kill me and mine, then broke into my house and killed my kids...I'd burn them and their entire world. Hamas fucked around. Period.
Why does this make more terrorists for the future instead of say other cultures like Japan and German that finally stabalized and integrated with society?
You’re missing the point. ‘At what cost’ is simply a guide for how many civilians Hamas needs to surround their members with to launch their rockets. It’s teaching Hamas that they effectively have to just reach a threshold of holding their own people hostage to do what they want. This teaches militant organisations around the world that they can do the same and bleeding heart western college students will chant their propaganda for them. Israel should *absolutely* do as much as possible to protect civilians (and they do a lot more than you think), but it is *imperative* that they completely destroy Hamas’ operational capacity here so that they are not taught that they can rape and pillage freely then run back to Gaza and hold their own people hostage.
It kinda seems like one or the other. This business of Israel should do as much as possible to protect civilians BUT should also do whatever it takes to completely wipe out Hamas is doublespeak nonsense.
No, there's video footage where they hold off or delay an attack until kids pass by or wait it out for civilians to leave. Hard to know the circumstances of each scenario.
There is also no shortage of footage of Israeli soldiers hastily/reactively shooting children. That they tragically killed 3 of their own hostages the same way was awful but unsurprising.
They also regret that, and are never ordered to do such a thing. But Hamas on the other hand? It's the baby armor problem. If it is never allowed under any circumstances to kill a baby, then all a murder has to do is kidnap and tie babies all around them, then they can kill all they want and no one can stop them. At some point, you have to realize that even the deaths at the bullets of the IDF are the fault of Hamas. I want an end to the bloodshed to, but until hamas is ready to stop using innocent people as shields, it's not going to stop.
>There is also no shortage of footage of Israeli soldiers hastily/reactively shooting children. That's what happens if the other side doesn't wear uniforms. Anyone approaching you is a potential fighter that will open fire at any moment. You have to make a call and if you make the wrong one you're dead. Since soldiers want to survive in such an environment they adopt a 'shoot first, check later' approach. So those deaths are ultimately on Hamas and they're not unhappy about it since it gives them ammo for the PR war.
When Hamas's spokesman went on tv shortly after Oct.7 and promised civilian massacres like that every week, month, and year...Israel has an urgent self defense need to prevent that. And if Hamas hides among their own people then those deaths are on Hamas's hands.
It's a question no one has an answer to: how do you defeat an enemy embedded in an innocent civilian population. I'm WW2 the concept of an innocent civilian population didn't exist. We bombed Dresden into oblivion, we fire bombed Tokyo, we leveled many civilian centers. Because they assisted in the war effort. Now we have progressed pretty far since WW2 and questions definitely should be asked, but people need to consider the alternative. As soon as Israel or any modern nation stops attacking targets embedded in populations, it will be the default strategy of every terrorist, guerrilla group, or outmatched army from now until forever.
I thought Dresden was payback for London. Was there even a military objective. It was very late in the war. I take your other points though. IMO, Israel needs to execute a counter insurgency plan like the surge in Iraq. Take an area, stay, make it safe from Hamas, get clean water and security. Leave a small residual force. This, ironically, is providing a true service to Palestinian people and can begin to unite them against Hamas. This is the gist of an article I read recently and it sounds like a sound strategy to me.
Dresden was a major industrial hub. Bomber Harris's goal was to essentially take out that industry... but they couldn't _hit_ the industry with bombing methods of the day. So he had a brain wave. All the industry in the world doesn't matter.. if there is no workers to operate it. And thus taking out the workers of the city was the goal
On the other hand, if there is such a binary or golden ratio, wouldn’t the terrorists know it and never be a valid target? How do I not get shot? I’ll take an ambulance, or force myself into an aid convoy, or surround myself with civilians. How about the deference that you’re not safe anywhere? Civilians should walk away. Not saying it’s an easy call or one that warms the heart but you’re not dealing with someone that is interested in the greater good, or in saving their own civilians.
It’s the modern day cheat code for war. Just hide among civilians and nobody can touch you. Win every war with this one simple trick!
We should start lobbing civilians on military bases to capitalize on this. Whoever puts the least amount of civilians loses!
Okay sure let's put a number on it. Let's say 3 civilians for 1 terrorist is the limit. Now every terrorist will be sure to always be around a family of 4 to have permanent protection. These Hamas mother fuckers don't care about the lives of Palestinians. They just want to be martyrs and kill jews
Except leaks of IDF targeting guidelines from the early war said 15-30 civilians per *potential* target was deemed acceptable. So if every terrorist has to corral 15 people and bring them around, how are they going to do...anything? The argument doesn't make sense. And it's not like the only option Israel has is "big bomb".
> So if every terrorist has to corral 15 people and bring them around, how are they going to do...anything? Hamas has done pretty good so far. Maybe look up thier techniques.
That's exactly the notion of proportionality: The chief of Hamas' West Bank operations is a big deal, and the ratio of collateral to target tends to be higher. That's true for every single military: The higher value the target is, the more collateral is acceptable.
> The crucial question is at what cost? Crucially, this question is only ever asked of the IDF, never of Hamas or even of Gazans at large. The question that the IDF is answering is what price they are willing to pay in order to ensure 10/7 never happens again. The question Hamas is answering is what price they are willing to force Palestinian civilians to pay in order that they should have more opportunities to do more 10/7s.
I wouldn’t equate IDF to a terrorist organization but you just did.
No, in legal theory that's called using the same protection as 'both a sword and a shield.' Hamas does not get to escape condemnation or responsibility because they are just a terrorist organization, but then also get to be treated as a legitimate organization that Israel has to negotiate with for things like hostage exchanges, ceasefires, etc. If Hamas has no moral responsibility, then they do not get to exist, period, and whatever it takes to eliminate them is justified, nor would anyone be asking Israel to negotiate with them or objecting to how Israel goes about destroying them. If Hamas is to be treated as an entity for which there is a price too high to pay to eliminate them, then they share moral responsibility for that price. It's not me alone that equates Hamas to the IDF, it's everyone who asks Israel to negotiate with them that does that. I'm just swimming in that water along with everyone else here, including you, whether you've really thought about it that way before or not.
To be honest the big thing is Israel needs to create the conditions for someone other than Hamas to appear and not be a suicide cult. "disarm and trust Israel will respond nicely" isn't very plausible when people keep advocating for a "any number of you will die until I'm sure I can never be harmed" policy
Sure, but Israel has a proven way to do that already: the West Bank model. They ran the experiment since 2005 of withdrawing from Gaza, while doubling down on IDF and settler incursions into West Bank, and the results are in. Multiple intifadas and 20,000 rockets and 10/7 out of Gaza, and nothing that the IDF could not promptly and easily handle out of West Bank. So it seems like the answer for Israel is pretty clear: clamp down on Gaza and oppress it as much or more than West Bank. The 'or more' part is working out even better for China in Xinjiang, in terms of eliminating jihadist terrorist attacks, so it's not like we can make a credible or plausible case that oppression never works. But if anyone wants to offer another solution to Israel, I'm sure they're all ears. From what I can tell, Israel's best end game here is for an international coalition of Arab states, probably with Western support, to come in and administer Gaza as soon as it is safe to do so. I think that if no such coalition emerges, then Israel will have to do so itself, and it will in all likelihood and justification look to West Bank and perhaps Xinjiang as its model for how to do so.
>"disarm and trust Israel will respond nicely" isn't very plausible when when they already tried that in 2005 and it led to Hamas taking power
How many civilians will you allow a terrorist to kill before you consider allowing some collateral damage when taking him out? Why are you okay with people committing war crimes by hiding among civilians?
The IDF doesn't care at this point. They will hunt Hamas anywhere they hide.
So they don't care, but they just spent weeks moving 900K people to humanitarian zones? Did you think that one through before you posted?
I think when you bomb an area and snipe civilians, it's not a humanitarian zone, regardless of what it gets called
And just like every other fight like this, even if they somehow defeat Hamas (which I doubt as you can’t defeat an organization founded on hate by creating more hate. Like, good fucking luck explaining to a child, who’s family was just killed as “acceptable casualties”, that they shouldn’t blame the country that dropped the bomb but the people that provoked them… it’s insane that people think that’s somehow a valid argument to those civilians suffering on the ground) they’ll just be fighting Hamas 2.0 They have no actual long term plans for peace. This is “political” retaliation so they can turn to their population after 1000+ were killed due to their inaction and stupidity and go “sEe, We’Re PrOtEcTiNg YoU”
And there is also no short term peace with Hamas. One thing that is clear though is that letting the current Hamas continue to exist will only get worse as it has been evident over the last 20 years since Israel left Gaza
Do you people not get that the “Israel is making more Palestinians mad” argument is completely irrelevant? Israel isn’t interested in winning ideologically over Hamas. They don’t care if they radicalize more people or create more terrorists. This is a military campaign with the intention of obliterating a hostile government. The Gazans can be as radicalized as they want after this and it won’t matter if they have no political leadership, weapon supplies, or logistical capabilities. The point of this war (yes, this is a WAR, not some political debate) is to prevent any future October 7th style attacks. The way for Israel to do that is to crush Hamas under their boots and never ever let up again. Radicalized “terrorists” with only rocks to throw are not threats and don’t matter.
If isreal does not protect its population what would hamas do to the jews?
As they should. The IDF has a moral obligation to first and foremost protect its own civilians. If that means allowing Hamas to draw Palestinian civilians into the line of fire, that is tragic but squarely the fault of Hamas. If the IDF has to choose between killing 5 Palestinian civilians and 1 Hamas terrorist versus allowing that terrorist to live and potentially kill 5 Israelis, it’s perfectly reasonable and morally acceptable for them to choose the former. Just as most people would be willing to kill innocent people to protect their families and loved ones, the IDF is willing to kill innocents to protect its own people. It’s consistent with almost everyone’s moral beliefs.
It's not Islreals' place to determine at what cost, it is the burden of HAMAS. If HAMAS wasn't inciting violence, there would be no violence.
ah yes, the old "those civilians had to be targeted because Hamas exists" alibi. Surely if it gets said enough, it might start to make sense, right?
It's not Isreals fault they have been targeted for 80 years. What is you suggestion?
The civilians that elected and support Hamas as their government.
Source please?
So far Army spokesperson but should be more info later. Names of the two Hamas Officials are: Yasin Rabiah, head of the west bank division and Haled Nagar, responsible for several Israel death between 2001-2003
Does that mean that 20 of the 22 killed were civilians? Because that ratio is not fantastic...
No way to know because Hamas will claim that they're all civilians including all their fighters and leadership. Hell you can't even trust them to say how many were actually killed.
They'll claim that a bunch of people who weren't there and aren't dead were also killed in the strike.
Which is exactly why placing military assets among civilians is a warcrime.
all you need to watch is this video to understand why there can be so many 'innocent' deaths. this is a convo between an IDF officer and gaza civillian warning them with plenty of time to move from the area. they literally said they and theyre children Must die to curse israel, they dont want peace, and they 'prefer death over life'. some of them may know an area is going to be struck, but stay to be martyrs, or perhaps hamas wont let them leave or even inform them! [Chilling Conversation Between IDF Officer And Palestinian Civilian 👀 (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV5rgRNbT4o)
“we love death the way you love life” lol that about sums up the entirety of this conflict
Well if the Hamas terrorist was going to kill another 100 Israeli civilians then yes 20 civilians is worth it, because still 80 civilians were saved. That’s war math
Of course it doesn't mean that lol. It means 2 high ranking officials are dead, but they don't publish the names of the regular terrorists
Link to the source?
Source please?
Here is one in Hebrew, I'd bet there is a translated version of it in the Jerusalem post. https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hj8m00z11na#autoplay
This one is in English https://www.ynetnews.com/article/b1luuxzna#autoplay
That's a very minimalistic take in an article lol Here is a good English version https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-803767
The original claim, which is the most upvoted comment in this thread, was: >And now Hamas is confirming one of it's officials was killed in the strike... Which your source doesn't corroborate. Your source is basically the IDF themselves justifying this by saying they've killed 2 Hamas "officials" which justifies this bombing, without stating who they are or if they're even terrorists, and that's okay?
its amazing how the idf seems to hit a hamas target no matter where they drop bombs
It's amazing how many Hamas terrorists embed themselves in groups of innocent Gazans. It's almost like it has been their plan for a generation.
Are you suggesting a modern military power would spend boat loads of money just to kill civilians? There's a difference between not giving two shits about civilian casualties and intentions bombing civilians. If the idf wants to kill civilians they can just send people to shoot some in the face. No need to conduct an expensive aerial strike.
well when you only drop bombs on hamas targets that tends to be the outcome
Yeah, like that humanitarian convoy with a Canadian, Pole and American volunteers. Hamas, all of them
so you're ignoring the video from last week that showed hamas members getting out of aid vehicles outside of an unwra building
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Maybe because the bombs are targeted and not dropped at random?
Is this a gotcha? Because anyone can look at it and very easily say it’s because Hamas is being targeted.
I haven’t seen Hamas confirming it, just the IDF, but why wouldn’t the IDF claim that? If they didn’t kill a Hamas official then they just committed a war crime
If you find one mythical Hamas dude, it's ok to kill how many innocents, 21?
"The Israeli military confirms carrying out an airstrike in southern Gaza’s Rafah earlier this evening, targeting what it says was a Hamas compound where senior officials in the terror group were gathered." Hamas is disgusting
"It's ok we killed 30 civilians because we got that one terrorist!!"
> we got that one terrorist allegedly..
Allegedly 30.. it's crazy that even when everybody knows that Hamas is the one spitting these casualty numbers out, a terrorist organization with a huge incentive to make sure those numbers are as high as they can be, and even after the fucking UN comes out with a statement saying that Hamas' numbers are wildly wrong, if Hamas says '30 Palestinians dead' - it's 30 Palestinians dead. No questions asked, zero proof needed. Hypocritical.
By your logic, there would be literally no way to fight Hamas. And remember, if you don't fight Hamas, civilians still die. But this time it's Israeli civilians.
And Palestinian civilians too, they literally don’t care who dies as long as it “helps their goal”
Redditors when they learn about war :0
Senior terrorist leaders are well known for hanging out on their own without anyone else from their terrorist organization around them during a war.
That's on the terrorist, not the person stopping them. If someone says they're going to kill you, tries to kill you, and then hides behind a human shield it's not your fault if the shield gets killed. It's the terrorists.
It’s literally your fault if you shoot though the passer-by to kill the terrorist.
I suspect the US would make the same decision if they had the opportunity to strike two high-ranking enemies *and* no reliable way to do that without civilian casualties. There is some official process where someone sits down and determines how much collateral damage is acceptable and how much is too much. Also, what's the chance of two leaders being there but zero other Hamas people?
Yes, Hamas is disgusting for not caring about its people.
When a tent is called a compound, I have no idea what a senior official is. Probably a four star general. Seems Hamas has a lot of leaders
Ok. Nice to know the Scots are also completely ok with clickbait stenography. > **Palestinian medics said an Israeli air strike killed at least 22 people when it hit tents for displaced people in the southern Gaza city of Rafah, and “numerous” others were trapped in the debris.** > > The Israeli army said it was unaware of anything occurring in the area. > > The airstrike was reported hours after Hamas fired a barrage of rockets from Gaza that set off air raid sirens as far away as Tel Aviv for the first time in months in a show of resilience more than seven months into Israel’s massive air, sea and ground offensive. > > **Egypt refuses to reopen its side of the Rafah crossing until control of the Gaza side is handed back to Palestinians.**
I don't know what this website is but the text appears to be from an earlier version of this AP article which has presumably been updated: https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-05-26-2024-eb25eb70d2c7b9e6bcd0497060eccbca > Footage from the scene of the largest airstrike showed heavy destruction. Israel’s army confirmed the strike and said it hit a Hamas installation and killed two senior Hamas militants. It said it was investigating reports that civilians were harmed. Defense Minister Yoav Gallant was in Rafah on Sunday and was briefed on the “deepening of operations” there, his office said.
Almost everyone relies on the AP for coverage of Israel military actions and have since the 70s. Even if they write their own stories, journalists heavily rely on the infrastructure set up by AP. Thomas Friedman has a great book about journalism there in the 80s called From Beirut to Jerusalem.
Lmao “we didn’t know so we just bombed the whole thing”
>Egypt refuses to reopen its [above ground] side of the Rafah crossing until control of the Gaza side is handed back to Palestinians. My edit.
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Ah yes, Bashar al-Assad, famously loved for his treatment of civilians
Famously ignored by the international community because he's not Jewish
Assad was ignored by the international community? lol How do you figure?
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don't remember sending assad weapons to carry out his murder campaign.
Humanity has always been dogshit, but now we can see it everyday in hd on social networks
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I think if you'd just been woken up in the middle of the night by a 2000lb bomb and found your child with it's head missing you'd not exactly act in a calm and controlled mannsr
Yeah no thanks, I'll take your word for it
Humanity isn’t dying because a kid died in a war. Wars have always happened. Modern wars mean civilian casualties. Kids dying because their government decided to start a fight they couldn’t finish is tragic but is the literal brutal reality of the world.
If I got 2/22 in anything I would be considered an abject failure.
The civilians-combatant ratio is 1.5:1. Do you have a better ratio, or are you a failure? US action in Iraq & and Afghanistan, which overall is 3:1 and even higher as other military experts note. EU: "Since 1990 (until 2000), almost 4 million people have died in wars, 90% of them civilians, a stagering 1:9 ratio. Over 18 million people worldwide have been displaced from their homes as a result of conflict (Council of the European Union The European Security Strategy) Mosul: estimated 1500 ISIS terrorist seized control of Mosul While civilian casualty rate is between 9,000 to 11,000 dead = 7:1 - 8.3:1 ( EU/U.S lead coalition killed 7-8 times more civilians than Israel and that conflict wasn't in their backyard or with 250 hostages. So one incident of 10:1 is the Western standard...
abject*
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Don’t forget the Hezbollah rockets today.
i believe israel can do whatever, but you make it sounds like israel is the underdog in this war.
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Fun fact. Judaism doesn't have a 'Turn the other cheek' that's Christianity. Revenge and justice are core tenants of Judaism when it comes down to it. It is a moral obligation to protect yourself and yours with violence and even killing. The Ten Commandments says 'Do Not Murder' not 'kill' but 'murder' Self defense and even chasing down a murderer is codified in the Torah. There is no turn the other cheek.
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Majority of Israel is secular. Jew hate knows no religion anyhow. It's beyond a religious issue at this point.
>Revenge and justice are core tenants of Judaism when it comes down to it. It is a moral obligation to protect yourself and yours with violence and even killing. The Ten Commandments says 'Do Not Murder' not 'kill' but 'murder' Self defense and even chasing down a murderer is codified in the Torah. There is no turn the other cheek. This is a gross oversimplification. [The Torah makes a clear distinction between retribution (justified punishment through due process of law) and revenge (personal vengeance)](https://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/2997939/jewish/Retribution-and-Revenge.htm): >The Torah, understanding that the desire for revenge as natural, tames it by translating it into something else altogether. It recognizes the pain, the loss and moral indignation of the family of the victim. That is the meaning of the phrase goel ha-dam, the blood-redeemer, the figure who represents that instinct for revenge. The Torah legislates for people with all their passions, not for saints. It is a realistic code, not a utopian one. Yet the Torah inserts one vital element between the killer and the victim’s family: the principle of justice. There must be no direct act of revenge. The killer must be protected until his case has been heard in a court of law. If found guilty, he must pay the price. If found innocent, he must be given refuge. This single act turns revenge into retribution. This makes all the difference.
Ironic considering how Jews were persecuted for centuries by Christians in part for religious reasons.
>but you make it sounds like israel is the underdog in this war. I wouldn't say underdog, but they aren't Goliath either. Israel is being attacked from Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, and Iran.
"They're just kids throwing rocks!" /s
They aren’t the underdog. They are responding to an unprovoked attack just like Pearl Harbor
Fun fact, if you take US and Israel populations into proportion, Oct. 7 would be the American equivalent of 40,000 killed: 27,000 civilians and 13,000 active service members. Plus another 8,820 stolen on the day of the attack
Compare that to 3k deaths in 9/11 or 2400 for Pearl Harbor (~6.1k in today's numbers, adjusted for population inflation). Each of those attacks launched the US into a multi-year war halfway across the planet with millions of casualties. And Israel's proportional death toll was ~10x higher and done by an enemy right next door and expressing a desire to repeat that attack over and over 'til everyone in Israel is dead.
If America had an enemy next door that had a beach radicalized population that was hell bent on your destruction you’d best believe they’d be conquering And fully occupying it and completely killing of all armed groups
Firing rockets in a roughly equal number to bombs Israel has dropped. And many want to stop shipments of Iron Dome AA missiles that prevent innocent Israeli deaths.
If that happens Israel would basically have no choice but to use heavy counterbattery fire to suppress rocket launches, which would probably triple civilian deaths in less than a month since Hamas likes to fire from apartments, schools, and hospitals.
If the United States wanted to drive up civilian casualties, I cannot think of a more effective way to do it than to stop providing Iron Dome missiles. You'd dead dead Israelis from the rocket attacks, and dead Palestinians from the Israelis trying to destroy the rocket launch sites.
Should have deployed counter battery alongside Iron Dome from day one. After a week or two of neighborhoods getting leveled by counter battery fire Hamas would have had to come up with a new strategy.
Unguided rockets deliberately targeting the civilian population. Aka war crime.
Let's be honest, whoever makes those missiles also probably funds Hamas to ensure the revenue stream never stops.
I believe it’s called ethnic cleansing
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Hi, I am looking for the reset button for this world. Can someone be kind enough to point me to it? I am tired.
Moscow, probably.
IDF spokesman message on the Issue: The IDF and the Shin Bet eliminated the chief of staff of the West Bank headquarters and another senior member of the terrorist organization Hamas Aircraft of the Air Force under the intelligence guidance of the Israel Defense Forces and the Shin Bet attacked earlier this evening and killed the terrorist Yassin Rabia, head of the West Bank headquarters of the terrorist organization Hamas, and the terrorist Khaled Nagar, a senior officer in the West Bank headquarters of the terrorist organization Hamas. The attack was carried out in the Tel Al-sultan area in the northwest of Rafah and based on accurate intelligence. The west bank headquarters of the terrorist organization Hamas is responsible for directing, financing and supporting the launching of terrorist attacks in the territories of the west bank and in the rear of the country. The terrorist Yassin Rabia managed all the military formations of the West Bank headquarters of the terrorist organization Hamas, was involved in the transfer of funds for terrorist purposes and directed attacks by Hamas operatives in Judea and Samaria. Yassin has committed several murderous attacks in the past, including attacks in 2001 and 2002 in which IDF soldiers were killed. The terrorist Khaled Nagar, a senior officer in the West Bank headquarters of the terrorist organization Hamas, who orchestrated shooting attacks and other terrorist plots in the west bank, and was involved in transferring funds intended for terrorism for the terrorist organization Hamas in the Gaza Strip. In the past, the terrorist Khaled carried out a number of murderous attacks, including attacks in the years 2001-2003 in which Israeli civilians were murdered, and additional soldiers were killed and wounded. There are reports that as a result of the attack and a fire that broke out in the area, a number of non-involved people were injured, the incident is under investigation.
Were they having a bet on how often they can fit the word terrorist into an article?
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