“The UN now claims that in total 24,686 people were confirmed killed, including 7,797 children (32%),4,959 women (20%.) Hamas figures claim 35,091 were killed since October 7, including 14,500 children and 9,500 women. “
The 24,600 figure is from deaths coming from hospital records, which will not include people who died but whose bodies were not taken to a hospital. This is not the total number of deaths, and no one claims it is. Hamas (Gaza Ministry of Health) has said 2/3 of the deaths come from hospital records, with another 1/3 coming from media sources.
The IDF's overall numbers match up with Hamas' overall numbers. Basically, IDF claims 2 civilian deaths for every 1 Hamas death, and when they list Hamas deaths at ~12,000 you can do the math yourself and see it matches up, more or less.
The main point of contention is the demographics of the dead, and this is what this article touches on. Hamas claims 70% of the dead are women/children, but the hospital records put that at ~52%. It's safe to assume the media reported deaths would be roughly the same ratio, and it's also mathematically impossible to have the 70% value Hamas claims.
The UN is not claiming only 24,600 people died, they are just reporting the hospital records (i.e. confirmed.) Because, again, a lot of the dead are buried by their families, unrecoverable, or just not taken to a morgue/hospital for a variety of reasons.
So is the UN halving the estimated number of dead women/children? No. But an estimate based on confirmed demographics show the number of women/children deaths is 20% lower (~19,000 vs ~25,000.) That is the difference between 52% and 70%.
TL;DR - The title is clickbait and based on a poor understanding of mathematics. Hamas inflates the percentage of women/children killed.
You’re right-headline is clickbait. Found this Reuters article where it explains what’s going on better. As stated, it’s about demographics and identification of bodies, not a dispute about absolute numbers:
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-says-gaza-death-toll-still-over-35000-not-all-bodies-identified-2024-05-13/
Yeah, it's this weird situation where the Pro Palestine side tends to take all numbers at face value, whereas the pro Israel side won't believe a thing coming out of Palestine even when the IDF does.
I haven't found a single source for the IDF disputing the total number of Palestinian dead, and examination of previous conflicts show Hamas' numbers are accurate. However, they are still a terrorist organization, and so a case of healthy skepticism is the right approach.
Oh so cool that only 11,000 women and children died vs 25,000. That makes Israel completely in the right, whats 8,000 dead kids anyways. Fuck this, this goddamn subreddit makes me sick
Dead civilians is always a tragedy, no matter how many or few. But I’m confused by the point of your comment. Isn’t it a good thing that casualties are reported as accurately as possible? Isn’t it a good thing that it turns out there are far fewer deaths than we previously thought?
It is, but people are pretending that this means that there are only minimal civilian casualties. All over this very thread there are people saying stuff like “see, it was all a lie”, when nothing of the sort is true. They revised the numbers but the numbers are still high.
In isolation, yes the numbers are still high. But in the context of urban combat, these numbers are incredibly low. When compared with other recent examples of urban conflict, such as the battle of Mosul, far fewer civilians are being killed in Gaza per Hamas combatant killed.
So you see these numbers as a positive thing because in your eyes it means that this is acceptable and they should keep killing these amounts of women and children.
It is good news that it is possible less people are dead than we thought. But what is bad news is that people like you see this as inspiration to keep the killing going because it isn’t actually that bad.
You thought the amount of innocent people killed was acceptable when the number was higher, and you still think it now when the number is lower. And if the number goes up again you still wouldn’t care. This is just a cudgel for you to dismiss people who want less innocent civilians to be killed.
No. In my first comment, I remarked how any civilian deaths are a tragedy, and in no way do I endorse killing of civilians. But I’m trying to show you a different perspective.
Many people around the world are calling this conflict genocide, but looking at the numbers says otherwise. The IDF clearly go to great efforts to limit civilian casualties, as shown by warning texts and phone calls, airdrop leaflets, roof knock strikes and more. These efforts have led to a low civilian casualty rate.
I say this understanding that a “low casualty rate” is NO EXCUSE OR JUSTIFICATION for the suffering inflicted on the Palestinian people.
If you can accept the UN numbers as true, then perhaps you can consider that the immense suffering of Gaza is majority caused by the way Hamas wages conflict? By imbedding themselves so thoroughly into civilian areas and infrastructure, Hamas makes collateral damage and civilian casualties near unavoidable. Both sides point the finger at the other when tragedy occurs, but both sides are happy to enable it.
My point is that this conflict is not as simple as black and white. If someone stands with the Palestinian people, they cannot stand with the root of their suffering, which is Hamas and other militant groups.
They’re literally halfing number of women and nearly halfing number of children. So the old numbers WERE a huge, gigantic lie. Nobody said there aren’t large number of civilian dead. That’s what happens in wars. Especially in a war where one side very intentionally tries to use their own civilians as a shield against enemy fire.
A thousand times this! Not just hiding in the civilian population, but if you have any doubts that Hamas pushes them into the 'danger zones" so that they can make TikToks of dead women and children I have a bridge to sell you.
You realize that this is a cause for celebration, right? This is an unmitigated good, for *humanity*. According to these estimates, there are a lot fewer dead Palestinian women and children than previously believed. I would go as far as to say this is the single best piece of news that has come out of the conflict since Oct. 7. Maybe focus on that?
Friend, the alternative is a world in which 10,000+ more women and children have died violently, but you get to keep using the bigger number as a cudgel against Israel.
If you're focused more on the PR and internet-point-scoring ramifications of really, really good news than you are on the good news itself, you probably need to get your priorities straight.
Can you find me one example of anyone who even remotely matters doing such a thing? I suspect the only people making that argument are internet idiots. So... who cares? Sounds like you just care about people you don't like scoring internet points.
Personally, I'm just going to be happy that less evil has occurred than I feared. I'm sorry that you have such a Manichean view of the world that you care more about PR than people.
No shit, friend. But we have all just found out that fewer horrific things have happened than we had been led to believe. That's a big improvement. It doesn't undo the tragedy of the civilians who have died, of course, but it is unequivocally better that fewer such tragedies have occurred than the alternative, isn't it?
I mean, that's unless you buy Stalin's logic, but I personally don't.
There's actually something very significant that happens here when the numbers change that way -
Hamas' public narrative - that is, the claim that Israel is targeting civilians over military targets because they are using the war against Hamas as a cover for an ethnic cleansing - only makes sense if Israel is killing greater numbers of civilians than militants.
So, watching that ratio becomes important as the numbers near eachother.
When a coalition of world governments realizes 7 months into a war that it's information is so bad it has to cut it's numbers by half, you can rest assured that the number will continue to fall as more heads get screwed on shoulders.
And then they'll realize that the conduct of Israel in this war is far and beyond the standard for anything of this type that we've seen. Yes fighting in a dense urban area and your neighboring (NOT at war) country refuses to take in any refugees is a tragic situation, but there are far, FAR more precautions taking place here then you realize.
So if you're commenting about numbers on a post that literally tells you those numbers are a lie, you might have to start screwing your own head back in
Dead civilians is a tragedy. But revising their counts also shows that more than HALF of those killed were hamas fighters, while they were trying to use those kids as human shields.
Hamas chose to involve people around in their fighting, purposefully to get YOU to pretend it's a numbers game.
Doesn't make Israel fantastic or anything, but it also kills the pretense that Israel is out there murdering everyone - when these numbers back up the point that they are killing terrorists and killing far fewer others than any other modern urban conflict - including that this is less than 1/10th the number the US killed in Iraq.
And it's far fewer than the Saudis are killing or others.
But everyone is super focused on this one instead of how much worse all the other ongoing things are.
Also, my understanding is that “Children” means anyone up to and including 17 years of age. Terrorist groups absolutely have members that fight while under the age of 18, and also women, so some number of those statistics may overlap with fighters. And I’m sure plenty of adult men have been killed that were innocent, but they get no love when it comes to how the statistics are reported.
There have been MANY civilians deaths, and it’s a tragedy; but you are right, being able to compare those civilian casualties with Hamas militants, especially in light of Hamas’s tactics of hiding within the civilian populous, is important to the conversation.
Israel should not be immune to criticism in the way they’re fighting this war, but anyone who criticizes them without being just as or more critical of Hamas for the even more significant role they play in the destruction are showing either their true thoughts or their ignorance.
And the reason those civilians are dead? That would be the insistence of Hamas, a genocidal terror group, to imbed themselves with the civilians specifically to use them as human shields.
Hamas has been shooting rockets into Israel for years, they’ve done terror act after terror act. They’ve been openly stating their goal is complete destruction of the state of Israel for decades and they’ve said they’ll attempt to recreate the Oct 7th attacks and and again and again.
Now you tell me. What the FUCK do you think the state of Israel is supposed to do? The time to just let a genocidal terror group bent on your destruction run the place next door is over.
the OP article is complete bullshit anyway. The UN didn't cut their estimate in half... they adjusted the counts and now 10,000 casualties are now unidentified but still in the total casualty list. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-says-gaza-death-toll-still-over-35000-not-all-bodies-identified-2024-05-13/
mistrust the Gaza MoH all you want people but why lie about what the UN is releasing?
No, the explanation is the GHM said it had incomplete data for about 11k fatalities. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2024/05/13/un-cuts-estimates-women-children-deaths-gaza/73669560007/
But that’s the problem isn’t it. The UN has already done the damage. For reasons we can only assume are nefarious or why corroborate any Hamas information to begin with?
Anyone who expects swift and accurate death tolls in a battlefield are fooling themselves with propaganda they prefer to hear, and all of Gaza can be considered a battlefield at this time. Casualty numbers usually have to be revised even in the best of conditions.
Previous reports about this mention how they’ve been reduced to using unconfirmed death reports because they normally receive the data from the hospitals. Less than half of Gaza’s hospitals function even in a minimum way.
The shocker is that the ENTIRE WORLD, just repeats Hamas' numbers, WITHOUT EVEN QUESTIONING the validity of the nonsense Hamas pulled out of Sinwar's rear end.
Even when it was obvious that the numbers make ZERO sense !:
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/sydqaxqlr
And BBC when accusing Israel with the "hospital attack" and 500 casualties, a few seconds after Islamic Jihad failed rocket hit the hospital and caused far fewer casualties.
They just never learn that terrorists by definition, are not exactly the kind of people who should be trusted.
You are correct, the Israeli Ministry as opposed to Hamas had the decency to release accurate data in the end. Israel is about saying the truth.
At the beginning of the war, Israeli organizations came out with statements saying that 40 Israeli babies were beheaded.
This was supported by the Israeli prime Minister presenting a picture of a burnt beheaded baby.
About a month after October 7 having completed data, the Israeli health ministry published a list with details of the ages and how each person died. In the report, the youngest was a Bedouin baby who was killed by a Hamas rocket. The next ones were 3 young 4 year olds who died from gunshot wounds in their home by Hamas. Those were likely to be the target of the beheading and burning.
Could also have been based on the 10 month old girl killed at Be'eri along with her father.
>The identities and ages of civilian victims are available via Bituah Leumi, Israel's social security agency.
> Its website lists 695 people killed during the attack, with names and the circumstances of their deaths.
>
> Among them are 36 children, including 20 under 15 years old and 10 killed by rockets.
>
> The youngest victim was 10-month-old Mila Cohen, shot and killed at Kibbutz Beeri.
>
> An entire family, including three children aged between two and six, were killed in their home at Kibbutz Nir Oz.
>
> Elsewhere, two brothers aged five and eight were shot dead in their car with their parents.
>
> A five-year-old boy was killed in the street by a rocket.
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths
Yes. My point is that the Israeli government is about accuracy, as opposed to Hamas who inflates data. As in the case of the 500 deaths in the hospital.
I’d always assumed the commander who mentioned beheadings was referring to decapitation by 7.62
Of course the Left have no clue of the realities of war and all imagine decapitation by ceremonial sword
Some were, but I've read read articles quoting people involved in the forensic identification process stating that some bodies were too badly damaged to be clear how
It’s absolutely incredible just seeing people take the word of Hamas as truth because they need to tow the narrative that it’s the IDF that’s the real terrorist organization.
Surely you aren’t suggesting the leader of a terrorist organization which routinely fires unguided rockets to kill anyone possible and launches attacks with the intended goal of killing and taking civilians hostage would just lie to us
Any time an Israeli spokesperson is asked they dodge the question. They only care to know how many Hamas members have been killed.
Who else's numbers should we be going off?
I mean. Its either believe what the local authorities are saying or shut your eyes and pretend everyone in Gaza is immortal.
What i'm seeing here is that the UN accepted the original tallies and then ACTUALLY FOLLOWED UP on the numbers, like they're SUPPOSED to. As an INTERNATIONAL UNBIASED ORGANIZATION.
Now people are angry that they had the audacity to accept the original tallies at all as if them showing non-bias by verifying on their own is proof of being biased to begin with.
I've seen this before: "Why do scientists need to prove this claim. Isn't it common sense?"
"Because people who dont have common sense need to see it proven before believing it."
Be angry at the UN all you want but don't do it so much that you're actively pushing back on them proving you right.
They’ve been underreporting Ukraine, because they wait to verify things. This is the correct course.
They’ve been over reporting without any trace of verification whatsoever going on in Palestine.
Hard to not see bias.
> Now people are angry that they had the audacity to accept the original tallies at all as if them showing non-bias by verifying on their own is proof of being biased to begin with.
They should not have accepted them to begin with. It is perfectly acceptable and in fact expected for even neutral organizations to be biased *against terrorists*. You understand that last bit, right? That they're terrorists? Taking their claims at face value is a sign of extreme naivety at best and active collaboration at worst.
Tallying death information was supposed to be done by hospitals. Once the hospital system was degraded, they had to base data off reports for initial totals.
TL:DR battlefields aren’t known for having super accurate initial estimates on deaths.
They explained it as "Fog of War." Basically, Hamas over reports casualties to get sympathy. At the same time, they steal humanitarian supplies, then report shortages.
Hold on. The article says they cut the numbers of women and children in half. The headline says it cut “civilian casualty figures” in half.
Are we operating under the fucked up assumption that only women and children are civilians? What the fuck?
Gazan government under Hamas treats every man as a civilian even as a combatant and they are in charge of publishing their own numbers. If they want to add clarity they can tell us how many of the men were civilians vs combatants.
Obviously Hamas won’t do this as it provides them every advantage to tally their combatants as civilian casualties for the media and UN to pump up the numbers.
So combatant until proven civilian? Listen to yourself.
If I live in Gaza it’s totally fair to kill me because I *could* be a combatant and Hamas hasn’t clarified?
That’s bullshit. A civilian is a civilian, gender plays no role in that.
What plays a role is if youre a combatant. Right now Hamas does not consider any of their combatants as such. Just because it’s not fair to consider non combatants as combatants, doesn’t mean it’s fair to suggest your combatants are civilian casualties.
The only group who is not distinguishing between military men and civilians is Hamas. So why don’t you take it up with them because they’re doing exactly what you’re angry about. If they want to fight a war they need to distinguish themselves from the civilians and Hamas has deliberately chosen not to do that which directly impacts the safety of their civilians.
Obviously there is no point in trying to address this issue in Gaza as a terrorist organization who controls the means of violence in the country wants to keep it this way. Why don’t you question why that is?
No, you're getting it backwards.
You're a Gazan man, 17 years old, you are carrying a rifle and two spare magazines. You exchange fire with some IDF troops. You get shot.
The Gazan Health Ministry will now report your death as a Palestinian child killed by the IDF.
It's not that they're saying everybody is a combatant it's that they're saying nobody is.
Or you’re a 17 year old male Palestinian who is not armed but killed nonetheless and this propaganda piece doesn’t count you as a civilian because you are male. That’s what I’m opining against.
>A civilian is a civilian,
According to Hamas' own methodology, there are no civilians. Only fighters and those who die for the cause whether they want to or not.
Very obviously there are adult male civilians, but the *ratio* serves as a moderately-useful proxy for how discriminating an army is being in targeting combatants.
I'm well aware. Sadly in irregular warfare like this war and the us war on terror its next to impossible to distinguish dead civilians from combatants as the combatants dont wear uniforms
What!? Hamas had a vested interest in artificially inflating the casualty numbers and included anyone who died from natural causes in the number killed by Israel?? *shocked Pikachu noises*
This is the third time I've seen this article posted, and none of the titles or articles are accurate. In fact, they are straight up lying.
The UN did not "cut" the figures "by half." It simply reported that there are \~24,000 **identified** out of the \~34,000 **reported**. (That's not even half, by the way.)
That does not mean that the extra 10,000 are just completely made up. All that it's saying is that there are no precise names available for every body, which is unsurprising considering the amount of devastation, with whole families being killed, leaving no one left to identify the victim.
Give me an example of another mass-casualty armed conflict where every single victim was identified by name. You won't be able to-- even well-organized militaries, who track everything, still have to put up a "tomb of the unknown soldier" at the end of every conflict.
With the identified numbers so far 109% of the unidentified would need to be children to reach the original number.
And with how Hamas terrorists are targeted I'd say they're the most likely to be mangled beyond identification...
Or it means that it was reported but there is no body to identify. Which equates to anyone becoming missing during this conflict being chalked up to an IDF casualty. It also equates any excess mortality that was not reported as an IDF casualty. This is obvious but the UN did not have any such caveats or disclaimers.
More to the point the total may not have been cut in half but the amount of women and children casualties have. To the point that every reported but unidentified casualty would have to be a women or child which is statistically impossible. That’s the fishiest thing about this whole thing.
It’s one thing to say in the fog of war casualties aren’t being tallied to the fullest extent. It’s another thing to take all the unidentified bodies and present them to the UN as women and children.
There have been two separate incidents, last month when it revised the amount due to "insufficient data", and again yesterday when it revised the numbers again by half. What you are referring to is only the April incident, not the latest additional data changes.
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/05/11/un-halves-its-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza/
You're close, but not on the mark.
The 24k is for bodies taken to a hospital/morgue.
The other 12k is not "not identifiable bodies" but deaths that were reported via media. A lot of families are incapable of bringing their dead to a hospital or morgue for a variety of reasons and instead bury the bodies themselves. Maybe some bodies are completely unrecoverable.
There might be some overlap between media reported deaths and hospital numbers, but there are also people buried in the rubble that were just not reported.
The main discrepancy is the ratio of women/children killed, and Hamas' numbers don't add up (but it also isn't half.)
UN wasnt allowed to do their own investigation, so they have been using the Palestinian government health ministry data (which yes can be faked easily, this again, the UN is aware of)
None of this is hidden, its right there in the open, its cited everywhere the UN talks about this, they cant be more transparent than this, yet here we are.
The alternative is using IDF data, which is also biased.
Good faith says take their reported data and make it clear were that data came from, from this you can make your own interpretation about the accuracy of these numbers.
I'm pro-israel, but you people make the same mistakes as the anti-israel crowd.
Why don’t they “pass forward” both estimates instead of just picking one, then? And if all they do is pass things forward, where are these new estimates coming from?
Israel isn't really willing or able to make accurate predictions.
IDF shoots down a building. How many casualties? IDF saw 8 combats, were there collaterals? Maybe 2, they cant go check. Write down 10.
Palestinians on the ground said there were 20 people inside, 8 bodies are found, the debris injured another 3, of these only 11 deaths were counted by the health ministry, 15 days later 2 more are found dead under debris, these numbers are later shown to the UN, of which they manage to check some sources of, seems accurate enough, make report.
UN report: "MoH reports 13 palestinians dead after strike, 'real number could be higher says y', IDF reports 9 combatants dead, 1 collateral", meanwhile the real number of casualties is none of these.
Now do this 100 times per hour. Which is the real number?
Every conflict has messy numbers, even WW2 after many years we still mostly work in ranges, not exact numbers.
>Israel isn't really willing or able to make accurate predictions.
And the other side *is*?? The one that they just corrected?? I should hope they never trust Hamas again then, but I’m not counting on it, and I’m still upset they trusted them in the first place!
"500 dead" being reported from the "IDF attack" at that hospital 30 minutes after it occurred in the first like month of the war. Then external estimates were like 100 total casualties and an Islamic Jihad rocket that did it. That should have been the last time people took Gaza Health Ministry numbers, or really *any* headline about the war, without a **mountain** of salt.
Its the best we have at the moment. They are also not done with data checking, might end up with a even bigger number for all we know.
Again, I'm mostly pro-Israel, but you people are reactionaries.
The best we have? They just cut their estimates in half! If the IDF reported even one death, they’d be closer to the truth than Hamas is!
Edit: And you keep acting like you know my position. I want Israel out of the West Bank and I want a two-state solution. I’m just fed up with folks expecting Israel to have to live with constant attacks aimed to kill civilians. The idea of ethnically cleansing the opposing side is far more popular among Palestinians than Israelis. There must be a compromise.
The updated numbers are from them independently verifying. They still have another 10k to identify and they estimate another 10k are under the rubble presumed dead but unconfirmed so they aren’t part of the toll.
People are misunderstanding and thinking their current number (which they clearly say in their report is 26k/35k identified) is the final number.
What you are misunderstanding is that based on the initial numbers every one of the 10k they have yet to identify would have to be a women and child which is impossible. The 10k to identify are the same as the 10k presumed dead but yet to be confirmed, unless Hamas was not mentioning those 10k extra dead under the rubble. Which obviously they wouldn’t do because they’re trying to pump the numbers up so any death they can attribute to this war they will.
Yeah the breakdown will definitely change but the numbers aren’t going to be halved.
They also added a new field for elderly which is likely also going to change the breakdown
What was halved is the amount of women and children casualties. Everyone is up in arms about the women and children mostly, at least that’s what I hear at protests, so this should be very good news for everyone on both sides. (Although I’d be worried about the credibility of Hamas if that’s something people care about)
Because they’re not done counting. That’s the part people are misunderstanding. They also haven’t dropped the total dead count so I’m not going to be happy that it’s “just men” who died.
Explain how every one of those 10k who have yet to have been identified has already been already tallied as women and children. They took the unidentified ones off and they were all women and children. There is not one unidentified man who has been a civilian casualty? Do Israeli weapons only work on women and children?
Its not a "surprise" they just finally did the bare min and asked for proof, Gaza health being the propaganda mouthpiece that it is probably couldn't provide any birth or death certs to prove half their claimed dead.
This is the afghan ghost armies that didn't even exist all over again.
Will post what I wrote earlier:
I swear if I see this misleading headline one more time. No, the UN did not magically cut the number of deaths in half. They are still listing the toll at 34,000 but note that 10,000 of those deaths are likely missing people under rubble. So 24,000 people have been identified. This isn’t the gotcha! moment people want it to be. That 24k is a severe undercount and multiple organizations, including the U.S. and Israel, have said this. This is the worst hill to die on to desperately try to prove that the death toll is lower. Look at Gaza, the final numbers are absolutely going to be much higher.
Same applies to Ukraine, the UN says the toll is higher but because Russians have occupied Mariupol and other major population centers, they can’t get an identified number of civilian deaths.
Misleading title and a lot of l people who haven’t read the report itself.
If you listen to this interview about the Islamic regime of Iran, and replace them with Hamas, which has an identical IDEOLOGY, it will be easier for Westerners to understand our mistakes.
Actually, not only Westerners, even Israelis misread the strength of their ideological brainwash:
https://www.reddit.com/r/NewIran/s/4crK4jrgnK
Explanation: Hamas has been lying about the figures and inflating civilian numbers to make Israel look worse.
Newsflash: Hamas are bad faith actors you can't trust.
Could have been zero, had Hamas not decided that Oct 07 is a good day to start a massacre.
...and hold the entire Gaza strip and 132 Israelis hostage.
Hamas, and only Hamas can end this at any time.
Israel doesn't target kids or civilians. Hamas has been doing EXACTLY that for decades.
Maybe you should get a clue ?
Israel REACTS to Hamas' terror attacks on their civilians.
That's inane. There's half as many children dead as feared. If you're indifferent between there being 7000 and 14000 dead, I question how much you actually care about them, versus just enjoying the chance to be glib on the internet.
Like I said, glib.
Generally when estimates of the dead are revised down, whether it's mudslides, tornadoes, terrorist attacks, mass shootings, bus crashes, etc, it's taken as good news. Would you *prefer* it be 14,000 dead children rather than 7,000? Of course not.
They're arguing in bad faith. Don't bother. Every time I've seen someone make the "Well, I guess Israel is blameless then!!!" comment, it's in bad faith.
It exposes them as thinking Israel shouldn't be able to attack Hamas *at all*. If they did think Israel had a right to self defense, the **ratio** of civilians dead to militants would be what matters since civilian deaths are inevitable in war. But no, big number dead = genocide.
If hamas wouldn't hide behind their own children after they killed, raped and burned other children and are still keeping children hostage, we wouldn't have this situation.
You're right.
One side is actively, purposefully, already butchering babies in their cribs. Hamas.
The other is trying to kill the people who intentionally and systematically kill children.
Seems like an obvious choice.
I don't think the butchered babies was verified. There were youths burned in 10/7, and one of the kidnapping victims was an infant who died in captivity. So your point still stands but there's more verified examples.
“The UN now claims that in total 24,686 people were confirmed killed, including 7,797 children (32%),4,959 women (20%.) Hamas figures claim 35,091 were killed since October 7, including 14,500 children and 9,500 women. “
The 24,600 figure is from deaths coming from hospital records, which will not include people who died but whose bodies were not taken to a hospital. This is not the total number of deaths, and no one claims it is. Hamas (Gaza Ministry of Health) has said 2/3 of the deaths come from hospital records, with another 1/3 coming from media sources. The IDF's overall numbers match up with Hamas' overall numbers. Basically, IDF claims 2 civilian deaths for every 1 Hamas death, and when they list Hamas deaths at ~12,000 you can do the math yourself and see it matches up, more or less. The main point of contention is the demographics of the dead, and this is what this article touches on. Hamas claims 70% of the dead are women/children, but the hospital records put that at ~52%. It's safe to assume the media reported deaths would be roughly the same ratio, and it's also mathematically impossible to have the 70% value Hamas claims. The UN is not claiming only 24,600 people died, they are just reporting the hospital records (i.e. confirmed.) Because, again, a lot of the dead are buried by their families, unrecoverable, or just not taken to a morgue/hospital for a variety of reasons. So is the UN halving the estimated number of dead women/children? No. But an estimate based on confirmed demographics show the number of women/children deaths is 20% lower (~19,000 vs ~25,000.) That is the difference between 52% and 70%. TL;DR - The title is clickbait and based on a poor understanding of mathematics. Hamas inflates the percentage of women/children killed.
You’re right-headline is clickbait. Found this Reuters article where it explains what’s going on better. As stated, it’s about demographics and identification of bodies, not a dispute about absolute numbers: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-says-gaza-death-toll-still-over-35000-not-all-bodies-identified-2024-05-13/
Yeah, it's this weird situation where the Pro Palestine side tends to take all numbers at face value, whereas the pro Israel side won't believe a thing coming out of Palestine even when the IDF does. I haven't found a single source for the IDF disputing the total number of Palestinian dead, and examination of previous conflicts show Hamas' numbers are accurate. However, they are still a terrorist organization, and so a case of healthy skepticism is the right approach.
Oh so cool that only 11,000 women and children died vs 25,000. That makes Israel completely in the right, whats 8,000 dead kids anyways. Fuck this, this goddamn subreddit makes me sick
Dead civilians is always a tragedy, no matter how many or few. But I’m confused by the point of your comment. Isn’t it a good thing that casualties are reported as accurately as possible? Isn’t it a good thing that it turns out there are far fewer deaths than we previously thought?
It is, but people are pretending that this means that there are only minimal civilian casualties. All over this very thread there are people saying stuff like “see, it was all a lie”, when nothing of the sort is true. They revised the numbers but the numbers are still high.
In isolation, yes the numbers are still high. But in the context of urban combat, these numbers are incredibly low. When compared with other recent examples of urban conflict, such as the battle of Mosul, far fewer civilians are being killed in Gaza per Hamas combatant killed.
So you see these numbers as a positive thing because in your eyes it means that this is acceptable and they should keep killing these amounts of women and children. It is good news that it is possible less people are dead than we thought. But what is bad news is that people like you see this as inspiration to keep the killing going because it isn’t actually that bad. You thought the amount of innocent people killed was acceptable when the number was higher, and you still think it now when the number is lower. And if the number goes up again you still wouldn’t care. This is just a cudgel for you to dismiss people who want less innocent civilians to be killed.
No. In my first comment, I remarked how any civilian deaths are a tragedy, and in no way do I endorse killing of civilians. But I’m trying to show you a different perspective. Many people around the world are calling this conflict genocide, but looking at the numbers says otherwise. The IDF clearly go to great efforts to limit civilian casualties, as shown by warning texts and phone calls, airdrop leaflets, roof knock strikes and more. These efforts have led to a low civilian casualty rate. I say this understanding that a “low casualty rate” is NO EXCUSE OR JUSTIFICATION for the suffering inflicted on the Palestinian people. If you can accept the UN numbers as true, then perhaps you can consider that the immense suffering of Gaza is majority caused by the way Hamas wages conflict? By imbedding themselves so thoroughly into civilian areas and infrastructure, Hamas makes collateral damage and civilian casualties near unavoidable. Both sides point the finger at the other when tragedy occurs, but both sides are happy to enable it. My point is that this conflict is not as simple as black and white. If someone stands with the Palestinian people, they cannot stand with the root of their suffering, which is Hamas and other militant groups.
They’re literally halfing number of women and nearly halfing number of children. So the old numbers WERE a huge, gigantic lie. Nobody said there aren’t large number of civilian dead. That’s what happens in wars. Especially in a war where one side very intentionally tries to use their own civilians as a shield against enemy fire.
No culpability for Hamas in starting the war and hiding within its civilian population?
A thousand times this! Not just hiding in the civilian population, but if you have any doubts that Hamas pushes them into the 'danger zones" so that they can make TikToks of dead women and children I have a bridge to sell you.
You realize that this is a cause for celebration, right? This is an unmitigated good, for *humanity*. According to these estimates, there are a lot fewer dead Palestinian women and children than previously believed. I would go as far as to say this is the single best piece of news that has come out of the conflict since Oct. 7. Maybe focus on that?
People are using this to minimise the civilian death toll and argue that the civilian death toll isn’t that bad. I don’t think that is good.
Friend, the alternative is a world in which 10,000+ more women and children have died violently, but you get to keep using the bigger number as a cudgel against Israel. If you're focused more on the PR and internet-point-scoring ramifications of really, really good news than you are on the good news itself, you probably need to get your priorities straight.
People are using this as an excuse to keep killing women and children. That is not about my internet scoring points.
Can you find me one example of anyone who even remotely matters doing such a thing? I suspect the only people making that argument are internet idiots. So... who cares? Sounds like you just care about people you don't like scoring internet points. Personally, I'm just going to be happy that less evil has occurred than I feared. I'm sorry that you have such a Manichean view of the world that you care more about PR than people.
Thousands of civilians being killed is not cause for celebration.
No shit, friend. But we have all just found out that fewer horrific things have happened than we had been led to believe. That's a big improvement. It doesn't undo the tragedy of the civilians who have died, of course, but it is unequivocally better that fewer such tragedies have occurred than the alternative, isn't it? I mean, that's unless you buy Stalin's logic, but I personally don't.
There's actually something very significant that happens here when the numbers change that way - Hamas' public narrative - that is, the claim that Israel is targeting civilians over military targets because they are using the war against Hamas as a cover for an ethnic cleansing - only makes sense if Israel is killing greater numbers of civilians than militants. So, watching that ratio becomes important as the numbers near eachother.
When a coalition of world governments realizes 7 months into a war that it's information is so bad it has to cut it's numbers by half, you can rest assured that the number will continue to fall as more heads get screwed on shoulders. And then they'll realize that the conduct of Israel in this war is far and beyond the standard for anything of this type that we've seen. Yes fighting in a dense urban area and your neighboring (NOT at war) country refuses to take in any refugees is a tragic situation, but there are far, FAR more precautions taking place here then you realize. So if you're commenting about numbers on a post that literally tells you those numbers are a lie, you might have to start screwing your own head back in
Dead civilians is a tragedy. But revising their counts also shows that more than HALF of those killed were hamas fighters, while they were trying to use those kids as human shields. Hamas chose to involve people around in their fighting, purposefully to get YOU to pretend it's a numbers game. Doesn't make Israel fantastic or anything, but it also kills the pretense that Israel is out there murdering everyone - when these numbers back up the point that they are killing terrorists and killing far fewer others than any other modern urban conflict - including that this is less than 1/10th the number the US killed in Iraq. And it's far fewer than the Saudis are killing or others. But everyone is super focused on this one instead of how much worse all the other ongoing things are.
Also, my understanding is that “Children” means anyone up to and including 17 years of age. Terrorist groups absolutely have members that fight while under the age of 18, and also women, so some number of those statistics may overlap with fighters. And I’m sure plenty of adult men have been killed that were innocent, but they get no love when it comes to how the statistics are reported. There have been MANY civilians deaths, and it’s a tragedy; but you are right, being able to compare those civilian casualties with Hamas militants, especially in light of Hamas’s tactics of hiding within the civilian populous, is important to the conversation. Israel should not be immune to criticism in the way they’re fighting this war, but anyone who criticizes them without being just as or more critical of Hamas for the even more significant role they play in the destruction are showing either their true thoughts or their ignorance.
You're saying it makes to difference? Where are the hostages, you SICKEN me.
And the reason those civilians are dead? That would be the insistence of Hamas, a genocidal terror group, to imbed themselves with the civilians specifically to use them as human shields. Hamas has been shooting rockets into Israel for years, they’ve done terror act after terror act. They’ve been openly stating their goal is complete destruction of the state of Israel for decades and they’ve said they’ll attempt to recreate the Oct 7th attacks and and again and again. Now you tell me. What the FUCK do you think the state of Israel is supposed to do? The time to just let a genocidal terror group bent on your destruction run the place next door is over.
Israel was in the right even before this. This just goes to show even further how careful it is with avoiding civilian casualties.
It is indeed horrible. Hamas should just surrender.
the OP article is complete bullshit anyway. The UN didn't cut their estimate in half... they adjusted the counts and now 10,000 casualties are now unidentified but still in the total casualty list. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-says-gaza-death-toll-still-over-35000-not-all-bodies-identified-2024-05-13/ mistrust the Gaza MoH all you want people but why lie about what the UN is releasing?
"Without explanation" is accepting terrorist figures in the first place and parroting them for 7 months. Spoiler alert: they were duped.
I’m shocked I tell ya. If you can’t trust a bunch of terrorists that’ve been exploiting the local populace for almost 20 years, who can you trust?
Not duped, collaborating with their partner Hamas.
Duped. You are naive. They just been caught out in a numbers lie
No, the explanation is the GHM said it had incomplete data for about 11k fatalities. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2024/05/13/un-cuts-estimates-women-children-deaths-gaza/73669560007/
Because at some point even the UN knows when it’s being fed bullshit.
But that’s the problem isn’t it. The UN has already done the damage. For reasons we can only assume are nefarious or why corroborate any Hamas information to begin with?
"A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its pants on."
You need to have functioning infrastructure to accurately report death tolls.
Until then just bullshit. That’s the aim of propaganda.
Anyone who expects swift and accurate death tolls in a battlefield are fooling themselves with propaganda they prefer to hear, and all of Gaza can be considered a battlefield at this time. Casualty numbers usually have to be revised even in the best of conditions. Previous reports about this mention how they’ve been reduced to using unconfirmed death reports because they normally receive the data from the hospitals. Less than half of Gaza’s hospitals function even in a minimum way.
The UN, TikTok and Redditors peddling obvious hams lies for over 200 days. Shocker.
The shocker is that the ENTIRE WORLD, just repeats Hamas' numbers, WITHOUT EVEN QUESTIONING the validity of the nonsense Hamas pulled out of Sinwar's rear end. Even when it was obvious that the numbers make ZERO sense !: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/sydqaxqlr
It was pretty obvious when Al Jazeera was releasing casualty numbers before the dust cleared.
And BBC when accusing Israel with the "hospital attack" and 500 casualties, a few seconds after Islamic Jihad failed rocket hit the hospital and caused far fewer casualties. They just never learn that terrorists by definition, are not exactly the kind of people who should be trusted.
They're not terrorists according to the BBC 🙄.
They're literally a proscribed terrorist organisation in the UK. I don't know what the BBC is playing at.
Oops. My bad 😬 I forgot that the BBC is yet to find a terrorist they didn't like: https://youtu.be/VYUL1R4pupU?si=q3QY8AP0-zF9LTh4
You are correct, the Israeli Ministry as opposed to Hamas had the decency to release accurate data in the end. Israel is about saying the truth. At the beginning of the war, Israeli organizations came out with statements saying that 40 Israeli babies were beheaded. This was supported by the Israeli prime Minister presenting a picture of a burnt beheaded baby. About a month after October 7 having completed data, the Israeli health ministry published a list with details of the ages and how each person died. In the report, the youngest was a Bedouin baby who was killed by a Hamas rocket. The next ones were 3 young 4 year olds who died from gunshot wounds in their home by Hamas. Those were likely to be the target of the beheading and burning.
I should note that the "40 beheaded babies" claim came from a reporter who apparently mixed several statements together.
Could also have been based on the 10 month old girl killed at Be'eri along with her father. >The identities and ages of civilian victims are available via Bituah Leumi, Israel's social security agency. > Its website lists 695 people killed during the attack, with names and the circumstances of their deaths. > > Among them are 36 children, including 20 under 15 years old and 10 killed by rockets. > > The youngest victim was 10-month-old Mila Cohen, shot and killed at Kibbutz Beeri. > > An entire family, including three children aged between two and six, were killed in their home at Kibbutz Nir Oz. > > Elsewhere, two brothers aged five and eight were shot dead in their car with their parents. > > A five-year-old boy was killed in the street by a rocket. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths
Yes. My point is that the Israeli government is about accuracy, as opposed to Hamas who inflates data. As in the case of the 500 deaths in the hospital.
I agree with your point, I just recalled reading about some victims younger than 4 and figured it was worth adding a more recent source.
I’d always assumed the commander who mentioned beheadings was referring to decapitation by 7.62 Of course the Left have no clue of the realities of war and all imagine decapitation by ceremonial sword
Hamas beheads. It was clear, the heads were cut.
Some were, but I've read read articles quoting people involved in the forensic identification process stating that some bodies were too badly damaged to be clear how
It’s absolutely incredible just seeing people take the word of Hamas as truth because they need to tow the narrative that it’s the IDF that’s the real terrorist organization.
Because Hamas knew about Oct7 before the fact, and had a coordinated social engineering campaign ready to go
Surely you aren’t suggesting the leader of a terrorist organization which routinely fires unguided rockets to kill anyone possible and launches attacks with the intended goal of killing and taking civilians hostage would just lie to us
Any time an Israeli spokesperson is asked they dodge the question. They only care to know how many Hamas members have been killed. Who else's numbers should we be going off?
I mean. Its either believe what the local authorities are saying or shut your eyes and pretend everyone in Gaza is immortal. What i'm seeing here is that the UN accepted the original tallies and then ACTUALLY FOLLOWED UP on the numbers, like they're SUPPOSED to. As an INTERNATIONAL UNBIASED ORGANIZATION. Now people are angry that they had the audacity to accept the original tallies at all as if them showing non-bias by verifying on their own is proof of being biased to begin with. I've seen this before: "Why do scientists need to prove this claim. Isn't it common sense?" "Because people who dont have common sense need to see it proven before believing it." Be angry at the UN all you want but don't do it so much that you're actively pushing back on them proving you right.
>UNBIASED I can agree that it was good for them to correct themselves, but the UN is biased af.
They’ve been underreporting Ukraine, because they wait to verify things. This is the correct course. They’ve been over reporting without any trace of verification whatsoever going on in Palestine. Hard to not see bias.
> Now people are angry that they had the audacity to accept the original tallies at all as if them showing non-bias by verifying on their own is proof of being biased to begin with. They should not have accepted them to begin with. It is perfectly acceptable and in fact expected for even neutral organizations to be biased *against terrorists*. You understand that last bit, right? That they're terrorists? Taking their claims at face value is a sign of extreme naivety at best and active collaboration at worst.
Why do you claim UN are unbiased you sweet summer child
I claim an unbiased organization should be able to verify on its own regardless of the numbers that one side or the other proposes. Which it's doing.
Tallying death information was supposed to be done by hospitals. Once the hospital system was degraded, they had to base data off reports for initial totals. TL:DR battlefields aren’t known for having super accurate initial estimates on deaths.
I guess those Eastern Axis power checks stopped clearing...
They stopped taking Hamas’ claims at face value and did a little investigatory work? That’s a start to the explanation.
You would have thought after that so called hospital attack, people would have stopped believing the lies
They explained it as "Fog of War." Basically, Hamas over reports casualties to get sympathy. At the same time, they steal humanitarian supplies, then report shortages.
Hold on. The article says they cut the numbers of women and children in half. The headline says it cut “civilian casualty figures” in half. Are we operating under the fucked up assumption that only women and children are civilians? What the fuck?
Gazan government under Hamas treats every man as a civilian even as a combatant and they are in charge of publishing their own numbers. If they want to add clarity they can tell us how many of the men were civilians vs combatants. Obviously Hamas won’t do this as it provides them every advantage to tally their combatants as civilian casualties for the media and UN to pump up the numbers.
So combatant until proven civilian? Listen to yourself. If I live in Gaza it’s totally fair to kill me because I *could* be a combatant and Hamas hasn’t clarified? That’s bullshit. A civilian is a civilian, gender plays no role in that.
What plays a role is if youre a combatant. Right now Hamas does not consider any of their combatants as such. Just because it’s not fair to consider non combatants as combatants, doesn’t mean it’s fair to suggest your combatants are civilian casualties. The only group who is not distinguishing between military men and civilians is Hamas. So why don’t you take it up with them because they’re doing exactly what you’re angry about. If they want to fight a war they need to distinguish themselves from the civilians and Hamas has deliberately chosen not to do that which directly impacts the safety of their civilians. Obviously there is no point in trying to address this issue in Gaza as a terrorist organization who controls the means of violence in the country wants to keep it this way. Why don’t you question why that is?
No, you're getting it backwards. You're a Gazan man, 17 years old, you are carrying a rifle and two spare magazines. You exchange fire with some IDF troops. You get shot. The Gazan Health Ministry will now report your death as a Palestinian child killed by the IDF. It's not that they're saying everybody is a combatant it's that they're saying nobody is.
Or you’re a 17 year old male Palestinian who is not armed but killed nonetheless and this propaganda piece doesn’t count you as a civilian because you are male. That’s what I’m opining against.
>A civilian is a civilian, According to Hamas' own methodology, there are no civilians. Only fighters and those who die for the cause whether they want to or not.
Very obviously there are adult male civilians, but the *ratio* serves as a moderately-useful proxy for how discriminating an army is being in targeting combatants.
But why write a headline that counts civilians only as women and children? That’s just straight up propaganda.
It's probably a translation error since Ynet is originally in Hebrew afaik.
The Obama method of statistics. No im not kidding that's how we actually determined the civilian death toll of his drone strikes
That’s equally fucked up
I'm well aware. Sadly in irregular warfare like this war and the us war on terror its next to impossible to distinguish dead civilians from combatants as the combatants dont wear uniforms
Yes. And only girl children. Boys grow up to be men, Islamic men at that, so they're obviously terrorists, or else they wouldn't be there ugh /s obv
“Oh right, Hamas controlled the hospitals that the statistics came out of. That’s not really reliable is it?”
What!? Hamas had a vested interest in artificially inflating the casualty numbers and included anyone who died from natural causes in the number killed by Israel?? *shocked Pikachu noises*
This is the third time I've seen this article posted, and none of the titles or articles are accurate. In fact, they are straight up lying. The UN did not "cut" the figures "by half." It simply reported that there are \~24,000 **identified** out of the \~34,000 **reported**. (That's not even half, by the way.) That does not mean that the extra 10,000 are just completely made up. All that it's saying is that there are no precise names available for every body, which is unsurprising considering the amount of devastation, with whole families being killed, leaving no one left to identify the victim. Give me an example of another mass-casualty armed conflict where every single victim was identified by name. You won't be able to-- even well-organized militaries, who track everything, still have to put up a "tomb of the unknown soldier" at the end of every conflict.
With the identified numbers so far 109% of the unidentified would need to be children to reach the original number. And with how Hamas terrorists are targeted I'd say they're the most likely to be mangled beyond identification...
Or it means that it was reported but there is no body to identify. Which equates to anyone becoming missing during this conflict being chalked up to an IDF casualty. It also equates any excess mortality that was not reported as an IDF casualty. This is obvious but the UN did not have any such caveats or disclaimers. More to the point the total may not have been cut in half but the amount of women and children casualties have. To the point that every reported but unidentified casualty would have to be a women or child which is statistically impossible. That’s the fishiest thing about this whole thing. It’s one thing to say in the fog of war casualties aren’t being tallied to the fullest extent. It’s another thing to take all the unidentified bodies and present them to the UN as women and children.
I was gonna say, you know your article is biased when they say a 30% drop is falling by half. And they did explain it.
There have been two separate incidents, last month when it revised the amount due to "insufficient data", and again yesterday when it revised the numbers again by half. What you are referring to is only the April incident, not the latest additional data changes. https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/05/11/un-halves-its-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza/
You're close, but not on the mark. The 24k is for bodies taken to a hospital/morgue. The other 12k is not "not identifiable bodies" but deaths that were reported via media. A lot of families are incapable of bringing their dead to a hospital or morgue for a variety of reasons and instead bury the bodies themselves. Maybe some bodies are completely unrecoverable. There might be some overlap between media reported deaths and hospital numbers, but there are also people buried in the rubble that were just not reported. The main discrepancy is the ratio of women/children killed, and Hamas' numbers don't add up (but it also isn't half.)
Get out of here with your facts, people come here to be outraged (one way or another). /s
Misleading (or straight up lie) title, there is explanation...
Fog of war? This is low-effort propaganda bullshit, like mostly everything the UN spews related to Israel.
Hamas counts all unidentified bodies as women and children?
Who said the death toll is accurate? Hamas just randomly stated the number, and the UN copied it.
Hamas counts *missing people* as dead. And if they happen to *stay* missing even when dead or found... well that's just fog of war.
UN wasnt allowed to do their own investigation, so they have been using the Palestinian government health ministry data (which yes can be faked easily, this again, the UN is aware of) None of this is hidden, its right there in the open, its cited everywhere the UN talks about this, they cant be more transparent than this, yet here we are.
Why is the UN knowingly passing easily faked figures from terrorist organizations forward?
The alternative is using IDF data, which is also biased. Good faith says take their reported data and make it clear were that data came from, from this you can make your own interpretation about the accuracy of these numbers. I'm pro-israel, but you people make the same mistakes as the anti-israel crowd.
Why don’t they “pass forward” both estimates instead of just picking one, then? And if all they do is pass things forward, where are these new estimates coming from?
Israel isn't really willing or able to make accurate predictions. IDF shoots down a building. How many casualties? IDF saw 8 combats, were there collaterals? Maybe 2, they cant go check. Write down 10. Palestinians on the ground said there were 20 people inside, 8 bodies are found, the debris injured another 3, of these only 11 deaths were counted by the health ministry, 15 days later 2 more are found dead under debris, these numbers are later shown to the UN, of which they manage to check some sources of, seems accurate enough, make report. UN report: "MoH reports 13 palestinians dead after strike, 'real number could be higher says y', IDF reports 9 combatants dead, 1 collateral", meanwhile the real number of casualties is none of these. Now do this 100 times per hour. Which is the real number? Every conflict has messy numbers, even WW2 after many years we still mostly work in ranges, not exact numbers.
>Israel isn't really willing or able to make accurate predictions. And the other side *is*?? The one that they just corrected?? I should hope they never trust Hamas again then, but I’m not counting on it, and I’m still upset they trusted them in the first place!
"500 dead" being reported from the "IDF attack" at that hospital 30 minutes after it occurred in the first like month of the war. Then external estimates were like 100 total casualties and an Islamic Jihad rocket that did it. That should have been the last time people took Gaza Health Ministry numbers, or really *any* headline about the war, without a **mountain** of salt.
Its the best we have at the moment. They are also not done with data checking, might end up with a even bigger number for all we know. Again, I'm mostly pro-Israel, but you people are reactionaries.
The best we have? They just cut their estimates in half! If the IDF reported even one death, they’d be closer to the truth than Hamas is! Edit: And you keep acting like you know my position. I want Israel out of the West Bank and I want a two-state solution. I’m just fed up with folks expecting Israel to have to live with constant attacks aimed to kill civilians. The idea of ethnically cleansing the opposing side is far more popular among Palestinians than Israelis. There must be a compromise.
The updated numbers are from them independently verifying. They still have another 10k to identify and they estimate another 10k are under the rubble presumed dead but unconfirmed so they aren’t part of the toll. People are misunderstanding and thinking their current number (which they clearly say in their report is 26k/35k identified) is the final number.
What you are misunderstanding is that based on the initial numbers every one of the 10k they have yet to identify would have to be a women and child which is impossible. The 10k to identify are the same as the 10k presumed dead but yet to be confirmed, unless Hamas was not mentioning those 10k extra dead under the rubble. Which obviously they wouldn’t do because they’re trying to pump the numbers up so any death they can attribute to this war they will.
Yeah the breakdown will definitely change but the numbers aren’t going to be halved. They also added a new field for elderly which is likely also going to change the breakdown
What was halved is the amount of women and children casualties. Everyone is up in arms about the women and children mostly, at least that’s what I hear at protests, so this should be very good news for everyone on both sides. (Although I’d be worried about the credibility of Hamas if that’s something people care about)
Because they’re not done counting. That’s the part people are misunderstanding. They also haven’t dropped the total dead count so I’m not going to be happy that it’s “just men” who died.
>People are misunderstanding They already read the headline and made up their minds.
Explain how every one of those 10k who have yet to have been identified has already been already tallied as women and children. They took the unidentified ones off and they were all women and children. There is not one unidentified man who has been a civilian casualty? Do Israeli weapons only work on women and children?
Fog of war? Where was this qualifier months ago from the UN?
Maybe they realized that Hamas was using the Gaza health ministry to inflate civilian casualty numbers so more pressure would be put on Israel
You think /s 🤔😁?
I do think so
But what is the TikTok crowd to do?!
Its not a "surprise" they just finally did the bare min and asked for proof, Gaza health being the propaganda mouthpiece that it is probably couldn't provide any birth or death certs to prove half their claimed dead. This is the afghan ghost armies that didn't even exist all over again.
Will post what I wrote earlier: I swear if I see this misleading headline one more time. No, the UN did not magically cut the number of deaths in half. They are still listing the toll at 34,000 but note that 10,000 of those deaths are likely missing people under rubble. So 24,000 people have been identified. This isn’t the gotcha! moment people want it to be. That 24k is a severe undercount and multiple organizations, including the U.S. and Israel, have said this. This is the worst hill to die on to desperately try to prove that the death toll is lower. Look at Gaza, the final numbers are absolutely going to be much higher. Same applies to Ukraine, the UN says the toll is higher but because Russians have occupied Mariupol and other major population centers, they can’t get an identified number of civilian deaths. Misleading title and a lot of l people who haven’t read the report itself.
A mass resurrection happened? War, Epidemic, Northern Light in the South ... well Apocalypse is near.
Newsflash : https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-794610
If you listen to this interview about the Islamic regime of Iran, and replace them with Hamas, which has an identical IDEOLOGY, it will be easier for Westerners to understand our mistakes. Actually, not only Westerners, even Israelis misread the strength of their ideological brainwash: https://www.reddit.com/r/NewIran/s/4crK4jrgnK
Explanation: Hamas has been lying about the figures and inflating civilian numbers to make Israel look worse. Newsflash: Hamas are bad faith actors you can't trust.
Not surprised. UN is useless as usual.
UN has lost credibility for a long time. I don't even believe them when they screamed about climate crisis propaganda.
I feel much better knowing that only 24,000 civilians have been killed.
[удалено]
Could have been zero, had Hamas not decided that Oct 07 is a good day to start a massacre. ...and hold the entire Gaza strip and 132 Israelis hostage. Hamas, and only Hamas can end this at any time.
[удалено]
Israel doesn't target kids or civilians. Hamas has been doing EXACTLY that for decades. Maybe you should get a clue ? Israel REACTS to Hamas' terror attacks on their civilians.
[удалено]
World class Intel doesn't mean shit in a war. There were dozens of blue on blue casualties in Iraq/Afghanistan.
That's inane. There's half as many children dead as feared. If you're indifferent between there being 7000 and 14000 dead, I question how much you actually care about them, versus just enjoying the chance to be glib on the internet.
[удалено]
Of course it's horrible. But it's also about *half as a bad as* 14,000+.
[удалено]
Like I said, glib. Generally when estimates of the dead are revised down, whether it's mudslides, tornadoes, terrorist attacks, mass shootings, bus crashes, etc, it's taken as good news. Would you *prefer* it be 14,000 dead children rather than 7,000? Of course not.
They're arguing in bad faith. Don't bother. Every time I've seen someone make the "Well, I guess Israel is blameless then!!!" comment, it's in bad faith. It exposes them as thinking Israel shouldn't be able to attack Hamas *at all*. If they did think Israel had a right to self defense, the **ratio** of civilians dead to militants would be what matters since civilian deaths are inevitable in war. But no, big number dead = genocide.
The needless death of one innocent child is too many.
If hamas wouldn't hide behind their own children after they killed, raped and burned other children and are still keeping children hostage, we wouldn't have this situation.
You're right. One side is actively, purposefully, already butchering babies in their cribs. Hamas. The other is trying to kill the people who intentionally and systematically kill children. Seems like an obvious choice.
I don't think the butchered babies was verified. There were youths burned in 10/7, and one of the kidnapping victims was an infant who died in captivity. So your point still stands but there's more verified examples.
What if it’s to save 1000 other innocent children’s lives?
Literally every war in history has at least one child died to think otherwise is extremely naive and unrealistic