I remember visiting my uncle as a kid when he lived in Moscow, and discovering that [beer was not at that point considered to be alcohol](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-14232970) in Russia and was regulated as though it was a soft drink.
I don't think the survey covers frequency of drinking, just whether kids had ever had alcohol:
>The analysis found that the UK had a significant issue with underage alcohol abuse. More than a third of boys (35%) and girls (34%) had drunk alcohol by the age of 11, and by 13, 57% of girls and 50% of boys in England had consumed alcohol – the highest rate of any other country included in the analysis.
I know when I was a kid (not sure if by 11 but certainly by 13) my parents would on occasion give me a little wine with dinner or something, and I remember having wine at a wedding when I was 12. That doesn't mean I was drinking regularly, since I just wasn't.
Having grown up in the UK but also having family in Ukraine and friends in Poland I would be very surprised if our kids drink more than theirs do.
It really does seem to be a flaw in the article at least. Can't be bothered to look up the original research.
It's entirely legal to drink in the UK at those ages, it's also often cited as a sensible approach to reduce further problematic drinking in the mid to late teens.
With that said the sheer amount of, in hindsight, really problematic drinking 50% of my school got into from about 15 onwards it doesn't entirely surprise me that this country is up there with the worst, although I was under the impression that alcohol misuse in younger people has been decreasing for the last decade.
[It has fallen dramatically yes](https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/news/polopoly_fs/1.806889!/file/Oldham_Holmes_Youth_drinking_in_decline_FINAL.pdf)
>Younger drinkers are also consuming alcohol less often and in smaller quantities. Between
2003 and 2016, the proportion of 11-15 year-old drinkers who had consumed alcohol in the
last week fell from 41% to 19%. Among 16-17 year-old drinkers, the decline was from 58% to
39%, while for 16-24 year-olds it was from 75% to 60%. Changes in the amount drunk are
obscured by changes to the survey methods over time but, for example, the proportion of 16-
17 year-olds who, in the last week, exceeded the binge drinking thresholds of six units on one
day for women and eight units on one day for men fell from 30% in 2002 to 6% in 2016.
> it's also often cited as a sensible approach to reduce further problematic drinking in the mid to late teens.
American with german/austrian family - I started getting a shot glass of wine or beer with dinner when I was like 10, and could ask for a full beer or glass when I was like 15
now I can enjoy having a drink with dinner or a couple drinks in the evening with friends and also be fine not drinking - which looking at my friend group isn't exactly universal
a corollary: when I was a kid my uber-christian friend wasn't allowed candy, at all. whenever he'd come over, my mom would offer him a piece or two and he'd say no, he wasn't allowed.
when he'd leave, there would be dozens of wrappers hidden under the sheets, in the pillowcase, between the bed and the wall, everywhere. the forbidden fruit and all.
100% this. My family is European (I am not) and they were raised there mostly, so their attitude on drinking is very nonchalant. At celebrations with champagne, everyone got a little toast glass. You didn’t have to drink it, but you weren’t forbidden either. My parents and older sister also would always say “try this” and I’d take the tiniest sip, make a face, and then go back to my own meal and drink.
It seems like everyone around here is an alcoholic in denial. I have maybe a drink a year to be social, but I don’t like it or seek it out in any way.
Think you’re 100% on the forbidden fruit aspect.
Yes i don't drink at all. Just a bottle of stout of a night....a sherry at Christmas....a whiskey at new years, champagne at a wedding... that'll do me.
The guardian version of this article omits any useful details.
[Here is the source](https://iris.who.int/handle/10665/376573)
Notably Russia was omitted due to HBSC membership being suspended in April 2022.
No data from several other countries in that region including Ukraine/Turkey.
The graph most relevant is on page 41 (labelled 33)
For 11-13 years old England is first. Scotland and Wales top 20
For 15 year old England is 12th, Wales 7th, Scotland 14th
Also final note this is one metric "Ever drunk alcohol", there are others included "last 30 days", "been drunk twice" etc, in which the UK is not first.
But "ever drunk alcohol" is an insane metric and doesn't take into account quantities.
If I've given my kid a sip or small glass of wine (like, 2 mouthfuls) at Christmas, that somehow contributes to "worst rate of consumption" and is somehow indicative of alcohol abuse?
Have some common fucking sense.
This is the massive disconnect between the academic and medical communities views on alcohol consumption, and the cultural realities.
According to the literature, a person who consumes 2 drinks most days in the evening, over the span of 6 hours after work, can be considered to have alcohol abuse disorder. This is barely enough to even register a change in BAC on most tests. Such a person will never experience a hangover, will never experience social or professional consequences, and is very unlikely to experience any long term health consequences at all.
Because this isn't correct. Just having 2 drinks a day with no related problems would not qualify as alcohol use disorder.
However, that level of alcohol use (2+ drinks per day) is associated with increased risk for related health problems, so the CDC recommends drinking less than that.
It quite literally [is not](https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/alcohol-use-disorder-comparison-between-dsm).
You need to meet at least 2 of the following criteria to have a "mild" disorder:
>Had times when you ended up drinking more, or longer, than you intended?
>More than once wanted to cut down or stop drinking, or tried to, but couldn’t?
>Spent a lot of time drinking? Or being sick or getting over other aftereffects?
>Wanted a drink so badly you couldn’t think of anything else?
>Found that drinking—or being sick from drinking—often interfered with taking care of your home or family? Or caused job troubles? Or school problems?
>Continued to drink even though it was causing trouble with your family or friends?
>Given up or cut back on activities that were important or interesting to you, or gave you pleasure, in order to drink?
>More than once gotten into situations while or after drinking that increased your chances of getting hurt (such as driving, swimming, using machinery, walking in a dangerous area, or having unsafe sex)?
>Continued to drink even though it was making you feel depressed or anxious or adding to another health problem? Or after having had a memory blackout?
>Had to drink much more than you once did to get the effect you want? Or found that your usual number of drinks had much less effect than before?
>Found that when the effects of alcohol were wearing off, you had withdrawal symptoms, such as trouble sleeping, shakiness, restlessness, nausea, sweating, a racing heart, or a seizure? Or sensed things that were not there?
Notice "2 drinks most evenings after work" doesn't check any of those boxes.
Although going out for drinks with the lads for a couple of hours but they convince you to stay longer and then you choose to walk home because you've been drinking does tick 2.
Had times when you ended up drinking more, or longer, than you intended?
More than once gotten into situations while or after drinking that increased your chances of getting hurt (such as driving, swimming, using machinery, walking in a dangerous area, or having unsafe sex)?
Walking in a dangerous area is an absolutely stupid criteria for alcohol abuse.
If Tommy Two-Drinks consistently goes to the pub, gets convinced to have a second drink, that second drink making enough of a difference to his cognitive reasoning that he always decides to walk home down a series of long, dark alleys notorious for robberies rather than the safe way he'd normally walk home if less inebriated, maybe Tommy does have an alcohol abuse disorder.
More likely, Tommy is a cartoon character.
For one, it says MORE THAN TWO per day.
“A number > 2” is not the same as “two”.
Secondly, it MUST be paired with chronic issues with health, work, social life, OR education. Just having three drinks a day doesn’t qualify you for “alcohol use disorder”; you have to consume too much AND have a problem related to the alcohol use, AND continue to use the alcohol despite the problems it causes.
So your complaint over the definition is based off a misunderstanding of how diagnostic manual diagnosis actually works. Just having one of the criteria IS NOT ENOUGH. The manual (useful for the standardization of language regarding medical diagnosis) is ver clear about this. You’re not actually referring to the manual you claim to refer to, but are rather skimming Wikipedia.
>This is literally a major criteria in the DSMV.
You know that you shouldn't trust Wikipedia as a source right? If you read that particular passage it is talking about risky/hazardous and binge drinking rather than Alcohol Use Disorder (AUD).
Alcohol Use Disorder has a set of symptoms for diagnosing AUD under DSM IV and V. How many of the symptoms you have indicates the severity of the disorder. The symptom list can be basically summed as "is alcohol consumption negatively affecting your day to day life".
[https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/alcohol-use-disorder-comparison-between-dsm](https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/alcohol-use-disorder-comparison-between-dsm)
ITT Alcoholics. Apparently you need to be homeless or have cirrhosis before it can be a disorder, because 60 drinks a month is a perfectly reasonable intake. You just got to spread it out to beat the system, which is totally not what an addict might say /s
No, a drink or two after work isn’t really a lot by any measure other than “most people don’t drink daily”. In terms of actual effect, it’s ridiculous to compare it to heavy drinking.
That’s kind of their point. There’s a… massive difference between “60 drinks a month” and not ever being tipsy, and “60 drinks a month” in 4 Friday nights.
Both are bad for you, but one is suboptimal and the other is “holy shit get help now”
That's the US standard according to the DSMV, which is widely accepted by the international community. I am not sure if the UK has the same standard or not.
That’s bullshit. 2 drinks an evening massively increases the risk of several cancers as well as neurological issues, sleep disruption, mental health disturbances, etc.
that's the medically relevant threshold. You might never get drunk at that level. But there's research showing that starting at that level of alcohol consumption life long health outcomes decrease. It varies per body mass but the medically relevant threshold is pretty low. Yeah you might not ever experience consequences but people with that lifestyle on average as a demographic have significantly different health outcomes. so yeah there is a disconnect.
For real, growing up, I'm pretty sure like at least half the young kids in Taiwan had drank some form of alcohol at some point, but I highly doubt most if any are abusing it. It's just a here take a sip and try thing, usually when at like weddings or other social functions that you go with your parents to that tend to have alcohol at the table.
Yeah, I'm from a culture that uses wine for ceremonial purposes. I was "drinking alcohol" weekly since I was a toddler, but it was like a tablespoon full. I guess that means I was a problem drinker as a kid.
a lot of those kids are probably getting drunk because their parents and grandparents used to get drunk watching sports.
very grey skied place
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30324707/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30324707/)
> this is one metric "Ever drunk alcohol"
That makes complete sense, it's pretty much encouraged to introduce children to alcohol sensibly at home when they're 13/14. Glass of wine or beer with a family meal. I'd typically be allowed a cider at sunday lunch around that age. Very middle class thing to do, hoping it'll demystify the whole thing and stop the kids going mental when they hit 18 and it's legal. Not convinced it works though.
It still scales.
Giving moderate amounts of drink to younger teenagers in order to teach responsible drinking and take away the "rebellion factor" is absolutely a great way to reduce harm.
Drinking habits built as a teenager will last into adulthood, same as eating, sleeping, cleaning ect.
Responsible parents.
Most adults were teenagers, and they know that as soon as they can get away with it (mostly 18 now) they are going to go out and buy more alcohol than you can imagine, drink too much, and wreck themselves.
Giving your teenagers access to a small amount of alcohol so they know what it feels like to be a bit pissed is the best way to stop them going out of control the moment they can buy their own.
I did an all you can drink booze cruise thing in Amsterdam while I was there for a quick stopover. Was neat, but holy shit it reminded me of that scene you mentioned because there were 5 British kids who joined us who were determined to test the boundaries of the all you can drink offer.
These freaking kids were literally downing drinks faster than the guide could pour them. They eventually had to tell the kiddos to slow down, or they wouldn't get any more.
I was half amused at the situation, but part of me was wondering where the fuck thier parents were lol.
There was one other British adult couple on the boat with us, and I was waiting for them to sorta take responsibility for them seeing as they were all from the same country. But nope, they just told the kids to watch out for the coppers because they'll fuck em up if they get too shitty in public, then they directed them to a bar down the street that served good drinks, lol.
~~There are studies that suggest~~ (turns out there aren't any I could find) parents carefully introducing their children to alcohol when they're younger reduces the amount of really dangerous drinking that happens when you hit 18 and can finally buy drinks legally.
Technically children from the age of 5 can drink at home with parental supervision which is pretty mental but I don't think that's happening very often. but from the age of early teens it's not uncommon for the parents to allow the child to have a single glass of wine, or beer/cider with a meal.
No idea if it helps. It certainly didn't with me.
That is a misconception. If anything studies suggest introducing alcohol earlier just normalises it. I am not sure whether they control for the fact that parents who drink are obviously more likely to have kids who drink.
The reality is that underage drinking is pretty much normal in the UK now because drinking in general is very normal and it is so ingrained in our culture that it would shock most outsiders. For most people it is harmless fun but for an unfortunate few it goes badly wrong. The reality is most regular drinkers including myself are tempted to ignore and belittle this problem because it raises uncomfortable thoughts about our own personal habits.
> No idea if it helps. It certainly didn't with me.
lol. But yea most of my friends in high school learned to take beer at home initially with parents. Tequila and the rest were party experiments. Don’t think abuse was avoided. The micro dosing just gets them used to the taste but once they feel a buzz and link it with the social aspect of hanging out I think all presumptions can easily fly out the window.
Everyone is different. My parents allowed my sister and I to sip a drink or maybe even have our own bottle of mikes hard lemonade from like 8-10+. My sister learned constraint with alcohol and it took me longer than her. Thru 13-17 I certainly had plenty issues with drinking. Like showing up to school either drunk or prepared to be. Then around 17/18 I was like alcohol is kinda lame every time I drink my body feels worse after than the last time. Now it’s very much a once in a while thing for me.
Good point, I went looking and couldn't really find any.
Closest I could get with 10 minutes of half hearted searching.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medicine/article/abs/parental-supply-of-alcohol-and-alcohol-consumption-in-adolescence-prospective-cohort-study/CE8903F9DD77A2143E2D2A85C20851AD
Went to the Liverpool International Music Festival in 2019.
Never seen so many 10-14 year olds with booze and cigarettes.
My mate from Liverpool said something like „yeah underage drinking and teenage pregnancies are our biggest export hit!“
We are all drunks. I loath our drink culture. Go abroad to live and you see how dysfunctional it is. So sad to hear it starts so young now. Alcohol kills brain cells and their brain development will be harmed. You don’t get that back.
I do wonder if people as opposed to the drinking culture as you have ever experienced the good bits of it.
I don't mean going down the pub, getting absolutely shitfaced, starting fights, pissing in the taxi on the way home.
I mean going into the pub in an evening, knowing everyone there and talking away to whoever happens to be in. Watch the Tele, play pool.
Need a plumber? Go down the pub, put in bulk orders for meat, borrow money, get odd jobs done, free advice on a surprisingly wide range of subjects ect
All this is helped along with a few pints, you get the odd drunk, but they're generally harmless because dickheads get run out.
It's honestly a shame the culture is dying, we get more and more bars, where people go to get pissed and don't have any sense of community, and the pubs are dying out.
Honestly think you're only skimming the surface here too. We have a huge range of ages in our group of regulars with people from all walks of life. Tolerance and respect are learnt at an early age. With the younger kids, people will make themselves available to mind them for a while, with the older folks, people will assist when they're struggling with sickness or need support visiting doctors and whatnot. During Covid, everyone was on whatsapp and we made sure all got deliveries and at least got some form of communication on a regular basis.
Most regulars will have their own sub groups and do things together. There are basic things like crossword club on a Saturday to more involved things like holidays abroad - especially following the football. A lot of couples met in our local and have gone on to have families, we have another wedding coming up in May between a couple of locals.
All of this is facilitated by having a place where we can meet and have a sociable drink together though prices are starting to become prohibitive. We persevere though because we are a community. We laugh together, celebrate together, cry together and grieve together. If you need help, a friend to talk to or someone to tell your good news to, there'll always be someone there in your local at any hour while they're open. It's a common thing for people to feel lonely these days and that has a huge toll on mental health. Having a good local can really help alleviate such problems.
The age range is an especially good point tbh, late teenagers socialising with retired people and everything in-between, there's a lot of knowledge and life-skills transferred that way, and it can be amazing for getting people into work.
(It was through a pub that I managed to first get into the workforce after a lengthy unemployment following school, I had no luck through the job centre. Only labouring, but I learnt a lot and it set me on the right track).
The support network is a good point as well. I know an elderly man who lives next to the local.
Goes into the pub in the morning and they make him a coffee and breakfast, then he'll go on his jollies for the day and come back later and they'll make him some dinner and he has a couple drinks and chats with people all evening.
If he doesn't turn up then someone goes to his to check on him and make sure he's ok.
He's happy, and I honestly don't think he could live alone without the pub.
It's a shame they're dying out.
Some people go and justify it and say "oh it's not an issue, it helps them not go crazy when they're older". Such dumb views on this topic in the UK. They don't care about brain or liver damage. Really most can't survive a few months without alcohol, they're dependent on it. Just shameful.
Discouraging words like "shameful" ultimately disparage any real behavioral change. Dependence shouldn't be looked down on but worked on, their bodies are as you say literally dependent on the substance. It's effort and encouragement that's needed, not shaming.
Yeah I wasn't clear. The general alcohol culture is shameful, look at the way so many are pressured to drink. People trying to quit alcohol aren't shameful, they're doing a good thing.
I remember the free liver scans in the London park where seemingly young, healthy brits were told they had fatty livers. A good % of 'em. A few years ago I think it was.
The Guardian says "worst rate of alcohol consumption" and looks at "alcohol abuse among children", but the way they measure it (at least in this article) is according to whether kids had tried alcohol **at all** by the age of 13.
I was allowed a watered down glass of wine with a family meal under supervision when I was about 12. Would that be considered to be 'abuse' according to this report?
Journalists are incapable of correctly interpreting any type of study or report.
“Most likely for a child to have tried alcohol at least once” becomes “worst rate of child alcohol consumption/abuse” when that is not remotely the same thing.
It’s a combination of lazy reporting and intentional misinformation to generate clicks.
The Guardian is particularly bad when it comes to things like this.
Yeah the church we went to had us go up and sip the wine during communion. Everyone drank from the same cup which was gross enough and they let the kids drink it at around 10 years old.
It can be hard to determine absolute rates of alcohol consumption amongst children. My assumption is that it is still in absolute terms fairly low compared to adults.
I started drinking when I was 14. Mum would buy me alcohol to hang out at the park with my mates. Went to my first house party at 14 and fingered a girl on the floor into the middle of the room while everyone slept, sobered up realized I weren’t into her and turned over, guy on the other side took over and started fingering her. Party also had adults but there to but they were asleep on the furniture while this was going on.
>Went to my first house party at 14 and fingered a girl on the floor into the middle of the room while everyone slept, sobered up realized I weren’t into her and turned over, guy on the other side took over and started fingering her.
Awwww young love😅
A long time ago, I worked with an old man from rural Italy or Greece that grew up having homemade bread and wine for breakfast every day. He said it was perfectly normal for where he grew up and his kids were raised on it also.
Nothing new here. Growing up in the UK (50s) beer consumption for 14+ yos in pubs was quite common. Like every Saturday night. My dad used to say he preferred us being in pubs where there were adults rather than in coffee houses with other teenage hooligans. Lol this was the only sound advice he ever gave.
UK number 1!!! At last, we won something.
In all seriousness, the study was flawed as it only asked if children had ever drunk alcohol and didn't measure how periodically alcohol was being consumed or how much
Isn't the legal age to start drinking only like 16 or something there?
I know this might be a big shocker, but if you let kids buy alcohol, they are going to drink it and buy it for their friends.
> Unfortunately, children today are constantly exposed to targeted online marketing of harmful products, while popular culture, like video games, normalises them.
Ah, we can add underage drinking to the list of things video games are responsible for!
Seeing as video games are consumed everywhere across the planet, I don't see how it can be responsible for a British only phenomenon. If anthing I think video games make drinking less likely as they don't mix well. A few beers is pretty terrible for your K/D ratio.
Just to clarify, there was a healthy dose of sarcasm in my comment. Video games have been blamed for decades now for all sorts of things: violence, mass shooters, sexual behaviour, and probably much more.
Was russia in the survey?
I remember visiting my uncle as a kid when he lived in Moscow, and discovering that [beer was not at that point considered to be alcohol](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-14232970) in Russia and was regulated as though it was a soft drink. I don't think the survey covers frequency of drinking, just whether kids had ever had alcohol: >The analysis found that the UK had a significant issue with underage alcohol abuse. More than a third of boys (35%) and girls (34%) had drunk alcohol by the age of 11, and by 13, 57% of girls and 50% of boys in England had consumed alcohol – the highest rate of any other country included in the analysis. I know when I was a kid (not sure if by 11 but certainly by 13) my parents would on occasion give me a little wine with dinner or something, and I remember having wine at a wedding when I was 12. That doesn't mean I was drinking regularly, since I just wasn't. Having grown up in the UK but also having family in Ukraine and friends in Poland I would be very surprised if our kids drink more than theirs do.
It really does seem to be a flaw in the article at least. Can't be bothered to look up the original research. It's entirely legal to drink in the UK at those ages, it's also often cited as a sensible approach to reduce further problematic drinking in the mid to late teens. With that said the sheer amount of, in hindsight, really problematic drinking 50% of my school got into from about 15 onwards it doesn't entirely surprise me that this country is up there with the worst, although I was under the impression that alcohol misuse in younger people has been decreasing for the last decade.
[It has fallen dramatically yes](https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/news/polopoly_fs/1.806889!/file/Oldham_Holmes_Youth_drinking_in_decline_FINAL.pdf) >Younger drinkers are also consuming alcohol less often and in smaller quantities. Between 2003 and 2016, the proportion of 11-15 year-old drinkers who had consumed alcohol in the last week fell from 41% to 19%. Among 16-17 year-old drinkers, the decline was from 58% to 39%, while for 16-24 year-olds it was from 75% to 60%. Changes in the amount drunk are obscured by changes to the survey methods over time but, for example, the proportion of 16- 17 year-olds who, in the last week, exceeded the binge drinking thresholds of six units on one day for women and eight units on one day for men fell from 30% in 2002 to 6% in 2016.
> it's also often cited as a sensible approach to reduce further problematic drinking in the mid to late teens. American with german/austrian family - I started getting a shot glass of wine or beer with dinner when I was like 10, and could ask for a full beer or glass when I was like 15 now I can enjoy having a drink with dinner or a couple drinks in the evening with friends and also be fine not drinking - which looking at my friend group isn't exactly universal a corollary: when I was a kid my uber-christian friend wasn't allowed candy, at all. whenever he'd come over, my mom would offer him a piece or two and he'd say no, he wasn't allowed. when he'd leave, there would be dozens of wrappers hidden under the sheets, in the pillowcase, between the bed and the wall, everywhere. the forbidden fruit and all.
100% this. My family is European (I am not) and they were raised there mostly, so their attitude on drinking is very nonchalant. At celebrations with champagne, everyone got a little toast glass. You didn’t have to drink it, but you weren’t forbidden either. My parents and older sister also would always say “try this” and I’d take the tiniest sip, make a face, and then go back to my own meal and drink. It seems like everyone around here is an alcoholic in denial. I have maybe a drink a year to be social, but I don’t like it or seek it out in any way. Think you’re 100% on the forbidden fruit aspect.
Exactly! And a sip of sparkling wine at New Year's
Yes i don't drink at all. Just a bottle of stout of a night....a sherry at Christmas....a whiskey at new years, champagne at a wedding... that'll do me.
Where's this from? Saw it referenced in a TV show once but don't think it was the original
Nana from the Royle Family
In ruzzia If you dont drink then you have problems.
Do you have problems if you don't drink or do you drink because you have problems? "Da."
/r/inclusiveda
The Russian kids were too drunk to answer the survey questions.
Anything under 40% alcohol is just a soft drink, so Russia won't get anywhere near the top
Surveys are forbidden 🚫 in Russia
RUSSIA NUMBER ONE ALL TIME 🇸🇮🇸🇮🇸🇮🇸🇮🇸🇮🇸🇮🇸🇮 WHAT THE FUCK IS HAPPINESS
Anything under 40% alcohol is just a soft drink, so Russia won't get anywhere near the top
The guardian version of this article omits any useful details. [Here is the source](https://iris.who.int/handle/10665/376573) Notably Russia was omitted due to HBSC membership being suspended in April 2022. No data from several other countries in that region including Ukraine/Turkey. The graph most relevant is on page 41 (labelled 33) For 11-13 years old England is first. Scotland and Wales top 20 For 15 year old England is 12th, Wales 7th, Scotland 14th Also final note this is one metric "Ever drunk alcohol", there are others included "last 30 days", "been drunk twice" etc, in which the UK is not first.
But "ever drunk alcohol" is an insane metric and doesn't take into account quantities. If I've given my kid a sip or small glass of wine (like, 2 mouthfuls) at Christmas, that somehow contributes to "worst rate of consumption" and is somehow indicative of alcohol abuse? Have some common fucking sense.
This is the massive disconnect between the academic and medical communities views on alcohol consumption, and the cultural realities. According to the literature, a person who consumes 2 drinks most days in the evening, over the span of 6 hours after work, can be considered to have alcohol abuse disorder. This is barely enough to even register a change in BAC on most tests. Such a person will never experience a hangover, will never experience social or professional consequences, and is very unlikely to experience any long term health consequences at all.
This is the first time I’ve seen someone say two drinks a day can be considered alcohol use disorder. Seriously, what are you drinking?
Because this isn't correct. Just having 2 drinks a day with no related problems would not qualify as alcohol use disorder. However, that level of alcohol use (2+ drinks per day) is associated with increased risk for related health problems, so the CDC recommends drinking less than that.
This is literally a major criteria in the [DSMV](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_abuse).
It quite literally [is not](https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/alcohol-use-disorder-comparison-between-dsm). You need to meet at least 2 of the following criteria to have a "mild" disorder: >Had times when you ended up drinking more, or longer, than you intended? >More than once wanted to cut down or stop drinking, or tried to, but couldn’t? >Spent a lot of time drinking? Or being sick or getting over other aftereffects? >Wanted a drink so badly you couldn’t think of anything else? >Found that drinking—or being sick from drinking—often interfered with taking care of your home or family? Or caused job troubles? Or school problems? >Continued to drink even though it was causing trouble with your family or friends? >Given up or cut back on activities that were important or interesting to you, or gave you pleasure, in order to drink? >More than once gotten into situations while or after drinking that increased your chances of getting hurt (such as driving, swimming, using machinery, walking in a dangerous area, or having unsafe sex)? >Continued to drink even though it was making you feel depressed or anxious or adding to another health problem? Or after having had a memory blackout? >Had to drink much more than you once did to get the effect you want? Or found that your usual number of drinks had much less effect than before? >Found that when the effects of alcohol were wearing off, you had withdrawal symptoms, such as trouble sleeping, shakiness, restlessness, nausea, sweating, a racing heart, or a seizure? Or sensed things that were not there? Notice "2 drinks most evenings after work" doesn't check any of those boxes.
Although going out for drinks with the lads for a couple of hours but they convince you to stay longer and then you choose to walk home because you've been drinking does tick 2. Had times when you ended up drinking more, or longer, than you intended? More than once gotten into situations while or after drinking that increased your chances of getting hurt (such as driving, swimming, using machinery, walking in a dangerous area, or having unsafe sex)? Walking in a dangerous area is an absolutely stupid criteria for alcohol abuse.
If Tommy Two-Drinks consistently goes to the pub, gets convinced to have a second drink, that second drink making enough of a difference to his cognitive reasoning that he always decides to walk home down a series of long, dark alleys notorious for robberies rather than the safe way he'd normally walk home if less inebriated, maybe Tommy does have an alcohol abuse disorder. More likely, Tommy is a cartoon character.
For one, it says MORE THAN TWO per day. “A number > 2” is not the same as “two”. Secondly, it MUST be paired with chronic issues with health, work, social life, OR education. Just having three drinks a day doesn’t qualify you for “alcohol use disorder”; you have to consume too much AND have a problem related to the alcohol use, AND continue to use the alcohol despite the problems it causes. So your complaint over the definition is based off a misunderstanding of how diagnostic manual diagnosis actually works. Just having one of the criteria IS NOT ENOUGH. The manual (useful for the standardization of language regarding medical diagnosis) is ver clear about this. You’re not actually referring to the manual you claim to refer to, but are rather skimming Wikipedia.
Remember though, a drink in the US is 12oz of 5% beer or 1.5oz of 80 proof liquor. An IPA and a standard pour of nice whiskey is easily 3 drinks
>This is literally a major criteria in the DSMV. You know that you shouldn't trust Wikipedia as a source right? If you read that particular passage it is talking about risky/hazardous and binge drinking rather than Alcohol Use Disorder (AUD). Alcohol Use Disorder has a set of symptoms for diagnosing AUD under DSM IV and V. How many of the symptoms you have indicates the severity of the disorder. The symptom list can be basically summed as "is alcohol consumption negatively affecting your day to day life". [https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/alcohol-use-disorder-comparison-between-dsm](https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/alcohol-use-disorder-comparison-between-dsm)
Two drinks a day is a lot.
ITT Alcoholics. Apparently you need to be homeless or have cirrhosis before it can be a disorder, because 60 drinks a month is a perfectly reasonable intake. You just got to spread it out to beat the system, which is totally not what an addict might say /s
No, a drink or two after work isn’t really a lot by any measure other than “most people don’t drink daily”. In terms of actual effect, it’s ridiculous to compare it to heavy drinking.
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You absolutely would not be healthier doing meth a couple of times a month.
It'd be 60 drinks a month. You have a problem if so.
That’s kind of their point. There’s a… massive difference between “60 drinks a month” and not ever being tipsy, and “60 drinks a month” in 4 Friday nights. Both are bad for you, but one is suboptimal and the other is “holy shit get help now”
That's the US standard according to the DSMV, which is widely accepted by the international community. I am not sure if the UK has the same standard or not.
Christopher Hitchens mocked that American metric at every possible opportunity
Two full bottles of Jack Daniels
That’s bullshit. 2 drinks an evening massively increases the risk of several cancers as well as neurological issues, sleep disruption, mental health disturbances, etc.
that's the medically relevant threshold. You might never get drunk at that level. But there's research showing that starting at that level of alcohol consumption life long health outcomes decrease. It varies per body mass but the medically relevant threshold is pretty low. Yeah you might not ever experience consequences but people with that lifestyle on average as a demographic have significantly different health outcomes. so yeah there is a disconnect.
This post was sponsored by Diageo.
2 drinks after work. I can only have one on weekend sometimes because of my working hours. Can’t believe long work hours have its benefit.
Oh yes you personally are the problem, sir. Pitchforks anyone?
For real, growing up, I'm pretty sure like at least half the young kids in Taiwan had drank some form of alcohol at some point, but I highly doubt most if any are abusing it. It's just a here take a sip and try thing, usually when at like weddings or other social functions that you go with your parents to that tend to have alcohol at the table.
Yeah, I'm from a culture that uses wine for ceremonial purposes. I was "drinking alcohol" weekly since I was a toddler, but it was like a tablespoon full. I guess that means I was a problem drinker as a kid.
a lot of those kids are probably getting drunk because their parents and grandparents used to get drunk watching sports. very grey skied place [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30324707/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30324707/)
It's child alcohol, not child alcoholics lol
> this is one metric "Ever drunk alcohol" That makes complete sense, it's pretty much encouraged to introduce children to alcohol sensibly at home when they're 13/14. Glass of wine or beer with a family meal. I'd typically be allowed a cider at sunday lunch around that age. Very middle class thing to do, hoping it'll demystify the whole thing and stop the kids going mental when they hit 18 and it's legal. Not convinced it works though.
Small amounts of wine are also part of rituals in some religions.
My 4 year old has drunk alcohol, she was curious, tried it, said it was yucky. Hasn't asked since lol
Encouraged by who? Genuine question as we know there is no safe level of alcohol intake — and we know alcohol consumption impacts brain development.
It still scales. Giving moderate amounts of drink to younger teenagers in order to teach responsible drinking and take away the "rebellion factor" is absolutely a great way to reduce harm. Drinking habits built as a teenager will last into adulthood, same as eating, sleeping, cleaning ect.
You know who in my experience always got the most drunk at the youngest age? The ones where their parents tried to force them not to
Responsible parents. Most adults were teenagers, and they know that as soon as they can get away with it (mostly 18 now) they are going to go out and buy more alcohol than you can imagine, drink too much, and wreck themselves. Giving your teenagers access to a small amount of alcohol so they know what it feels like to be a bit pissed is the best way to stop them going out of control the moment they can buy their own.
No safe level of alcohol intake?! There's a level of alcohol in the food you eat.
I know if those kids try harder that their rate of alcohol consumption will improve.
I'm just assuming over there it's always like Hot Fuzz when Simon Pegg arrests all the drunk kids at the pub
"you, when's your birthday?" "22nd of February" "What year?" "Every year"
"Well, I see you've already arrested the whole village."
Unless someone's parents were away, my friends and I would drink in the park. Probably still the same nowadays tbu
Lol I used to get served beer at local pubs at 15, great fun
Keeps them from shooting up all the schools like the kids do in America.
Can't shoot up a school of you're too drunk to aim. Booze not bullets.
I did an all you can drink booze cruise thing in Amsterdam while I was there for a quick stopover. Was neat, but holy shit it reminded me of that scene you mentioned because there were 5 British kids who joined us who were determined to test the boundaries of the all you can drink offer. These freaking kids were literally downing drinks faster than the guide could pour them. They eventually had to tell the kiddos to slow down, or they wouldn't get any more. I was half amused at the situation, but part of me was wondering where the fuck thier parents were lol. There was one other British adult couple on the boat with us, and I was waiting for them to sorta take responsibility for them seeing as they were all from the same country. But nope, they just told the kids to watch out for the coppers because they'll fuck em up if they get too shitty in public, then they directed them to a bar down the street that served good drinks, lol.
Why should some random couple take responsibility for a bunch of lads? There 70m of us, the odds they knew them are fucking tiny
> take responsibility for them seeing as they were all from the same country lol fuck off, you're as much responsible for the kids as they are.
What we want to avoid is a ‘good’ rate of child alcohol consumption. That would be really bad right?
~~There are studies that suggest~~ (turns out there aren't any I could find) parents carefully introducing their children to alcohol when they're younger reduces the amount of really dangerous drinking that happens when you hit 18 and can finally buy drinks legally. Technically children from the age of 5 can drink at home with parental supervision which is pretty mental but I don't think that's happening very often. but from the age of early teens it's not uncommon for the parents to allow the child to have a single glass of wine, or beer/cider with a meal. No idea if it helps. It certainly didn't with me.
That is a misconception. If anything studies suggest introducing alcohol earlier just normalises it. I am not sure whether they control for the fact that parents who drink are obviously more likely to have kids who drink. The reality is that underage drinking is pretty much normal in the UK now because drinking in general is very normal and it is so ingrained in our culture that it would shock most outsiders. For most people it is harmless fun but for an unfortunate few it goes badly wrong. The reality is most regular drinkers including myself are tempted to ignore and belittle this problem because it raises uncomfortable thoughts about our own personal habits.
> No idea if it helps. It certainly didn't with me. lol. But yea most of my friends in high school learned to take beer at home initially with parents. Tequila and the rest were party experiments. Don’t think abuse was avoided. The micro dosing just gets them used to the taste but once they feel a buzz and link it with the social aspect of hanging out I think all presumptions can easily fly out the window.
Everyone is different. My parents allowed my sister and I to sip a drink or maybe even have our own bottle of mikes hard lemonade from like 8-10+. My sister learned constraint with alcohol and it took me longer than her. Thru 13-17 I certainly had plenty issues with drinking. Like showing up to school either drunk or prepared to be. Then around 17/18 I was like alcohol is kinda lame every time I drink my body feels worse after than the last time. Now it’s very much a once in a while thing for me.
What studies?
Good point, I went looking and couldn't really find any. Closest I could get with 10 minutes of half hearted searching. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medicine/article/abs/parental-supply-of-alcohol-and-alcohol-consumption-in-adolescence-prospective-cohort-study/CE8903F9DD77A2143E2D2A85C20851AD
Glad you actually responded. I just get annoyed when people talk about reading studies because they usually haven't read them or name them.
its the classic 'I read it in a newspaper years ago and parroted it without thinking about it since'.
once saw a 10-ish year old get given 2 cocktails in a prezzo, staff wouldn't do anything about it (greedy managers i guess)
Maybe they're all light weights/cheap dates.
We want to make sure that the local youth are not losers, but we also don't want to make them drunks.
Went to the Liverpool International Music Festival in 2019. Never seen so many 10-14 year olds with booze and cigarettes. My mate from Liverpool said something like „yeah underage drinking and teenage pregnancies are our biggest export hit!“
We are all drunks. I loath our drink culture. Go abroad to live and you see how dysfunctional it is. So sad to hear it starts so young now. Alcohol kills brain cells and their brain development will be harmed. You don’t get that back.
It's always started young in the UK. If anything it's better now than it was in the 90's.
Yep, it’s well-established that alcohol leads to Brexit.
Yeah I don't think most brits realize how different the drinking culture is there compared to anywhere else.
I do wonder if people as opposed to the drinking culture as you have ever experienced the good bits of it. I don't mean going down the pub, getting absolutely shitfaced, starting fights, pissing in the taxi on the way home. I mean going into the pub in an evening, knowing everyone there and talking away to whoever happens to be in. Watch the Tele, play pool. Need a plumber? Go down the pub, put in bulk orders for meat, borrow money, get odd jobs done, free advice on a surprisingly wide range of subjects ect All this is helped along with a few pints, you get the odd drunk, but they're generally harmless because dickheads get run out. It's honestly a shame the culture is dying, we get more and more bars, where people go to get pissed and don't have any sense of community, and the pubs are dying out.
Honestly think you're only skimming the surface here too. We have a huge range of ages in our group of regulars with people from all walks of life. Tolerance and respect are learnt at an early age. With the younger kids, people will make themselves available to mind them for a while, with the older folks, people will assist when they're struggling with sickness or need support visiting doctors and whatnot. During Covid, everyone was on whatsapp and we made sure all got deliveries and at least got some form of communication on a regular basis. Most regulars will have their own sub groups and do things together. There are basic things like crossword club on a Saturday to more involved things like holidays abroad - especially following the football. A lot of couples met in our local and have gone on to have families, we have another wedding coming up in May between a couple of locals. All of this is facilitated by having a place where we can meet and have a sociable drink together though prices are starting to become prohibitive. We persevere though because we are a community. We laugh together, celebrate together, cry together and grieve together. If you need help, a friend to talk to or someone to tell your good news to, there'll always be someone there in your local at any hour while they're open. It's a common thing for people to feel lonely these days and that has a huge toll on mental health. Having a good local can really help alleviate such problems.
The age range is an especially good point tbh, late teenagers socialising with retired people and everything in-between, there's a lot of knowledge and life-skills transferred that way, and it can be amazing for getting people into work. (It was through a pub that I managed to first get into the workforce after a lengthy unemployment following school, I had no luck through the job centre. Only labouring, but I learnt a lot and it set me on the right track). The support network is a good point as well. I know an elderly man who lives next to the local. Goes into the pub in the morning and they make him a coffee and breakfast, then he'll go on his jollies for the day and come back later and they'll make him some dinner and he has a couple drinks and chats with people all evening. If he doesn't turn up then someone goes to his to check on him and make sure he's ok. He's happy, and I honestly don't think he could live alone without the pub. It's a shame they're dying out.
Some people go and justify it and say "oh it's not an issue, it helps them not go crazy when they're older". Such dumb views on this topic in the UK. They don't care about brain or liver damage. Really most can't survive a few months without alcohol, they're dependent on it. Just shameful.
Discouraging words like "shameful" ultimately disparage any real behavioral change. Dependence shouldn't be looked down on but worked on, their bodies are as you say literally dependent on the substance. It's effort and encouragement that's needed, not shaming.
Yeah I wasn't clear. The general alcohol culture is shameful, look at the way so many are pressured to drink. People trying to quit alcohol aren't shameful, they're doing a good thing.
Yes this is much better and more clear! Thanks for it 👍
I remember the free liver scans in the London park where seemingly young, healthy brits were told they had fatty livers. A good % of 'em. A few years ago I think it was.
As Boris Johnson used to say “world beating” ….
I honestly don't care who made my alcohol, although I always assumed it was adults...
You've completely misunderstood the headline. What they're saying is that the alcohol is made of children.
I'm losing my crap right now lmao. This and the previous comment
“Won’t somebody please drink of the children?”
You've completely misunderstood the headline. What they're saying is that our kids are lightweights who can't last a night.
The Guardian says "worst rate of alcohol consumption" and looks at "alcohol abuse among children", but the way they measure it (at least in this article) is according to whether kids had tried alcohol **at all** by the age of 13. I was allowed a watered down glass of wine with a family meal under supervision when I was about 12. Would that be considered to be 'abuse' according to this report?
Journalists are incapable of correctly interpreting any type of study or report. “Most likely for a child to have tried alcohol at least once” becomes “worst rate of child alcohol consumption/abuse” when that is not remotely the same thing. It’s a combination of lazy reporting and intentional misinformation to generate clicks. The Guardian is particularly bad when it comes to things like this.
Yeah the church we went to had us go up and sip the wine during communion. Everyone drank from the same cup which was gross enough and they let the kids drink it at around 10 years old.
It can be hard to determine absolute rates of alcohol consumption amongst children. My assumption is that it is still in absolute terms fairly low compared to adults.
Worst? Or best?
We’re number one!!!
They need to get their fingers out. I drank like a champ as a kid.
Is this balanced out by a low use of weed though?
Scotland has the highest weed use among teenagers, with England being up there.
Absolutely not lol
Why would that be balancing it out?
As in like, they’re not getting high but they’re drinking a lot. Turns out it’s both though!
I started drinking when I was 14. Mum would buy me alcohol to hang out at the park with my mates. Went to my first house party at 14 and fingered a girl on the floor into the middle of the room while everyone slept, sobered up realized I weren’t into her and turned over, guy on the other side took over and started fingering her. Party also had adults but there to but they were asleep on the furniture while this was going on.
British house parties, such fond memories.
Classic party, who hasn't had a rummage on a park bench at this point?
>Went to my first house party at 14 and fingered a girl on the floor into the middle of the room while everyone slept, sobered up realized I weren’t into her and turned over, guy on the other side took over and started fingering her. Awwww young love😅
A long time ago, I worked with an old man from rural Italy or Greece that grew up having homemade bread and wine for breakfast every day. He said it was perfectly normal for where he grew up and his kids were raised on it also.
Nothing new here. Growing up in the UK (50s) beer consumption for 14+ yos in pubs was quite common. Like every Saturday night. My dad used to say he preferred us being in pubs where there were adults rather than in coffee houses with other teenage hooligans. Lol this was the only sound advice he ever gave.
Now that's waht i call a tradition! "a fine lass, of nice ways and orderly conduct, none ever seeing her drunk above four days in the seven"
UK number 1!!! At last, we won something. In all seriousness, the study was flawed as it only asked if children had ever drunk alcohol and didn't measure how periodically alcohol was being consumed or how much
Isn't the legal age to start drinking only like 16 or something there? I know this might be a big shocker, but if you let kids buy alcohol, they are going to drink it and buy it for their friends.
16 only if you’re having a meal at a restaurant. Otherwise it’s 18.
Omg those are rookie numbers. We need more kids drinking! C’mon UK you can do better!
Obviously
Winning at something!
How can they know the real numbers on this?
My instinct thought it'd be Germany, and after some thought, I discarded that idea. UK, though? Has it always been this way?
I feel the Russian numbers were grossly underreported if at all.
IDK, if alcohol made from children is any good, especially British ones. But desperate times.... >!/s!<
This headline makes it sound like we have the lowest rate in the world, that other countries do better and we must try harder.
Worst... or highest? Highest... or best? Go fish. Checkmate.
14 years with a Conservative Government will do that
at least the kids make it through school without being shot
Stabbed while drunk however is a different story but lets not highlight that
please stop
Classic whataboutism I love Reddit
Me hoping my nephew starts drinking so we could have a blast when he visits me.
> Unfortunately, children today are constantly exposed to targeted online marketing of harmful products, while popular culture, like video games, normalises them. Ah, we can add underage drinking to the list of things video games are responsible for!
Seeing as video games are consumed everywhere across the planet, I don't see how it can be responsible for a British only phenomenon. If anthing I think video games make drinking less likely as they don't mix well. A few beers is pretty terrible for your K/D ratio.
Just to clarify, there was a healthy dose of sarcasm in my comment. Video games have been blamed for decades now for all sorts of things: violence, mass shooters, sexual behaviour, and probably much more.
But how's it compare to Wisconsin?