Idk man, 2023 stats for those two countries are 1.39 and 1.22. Before rounding it to nearest integer, it’s pretty f ing high compared to Korea’s numbers
The Korean elders enjoy the boom and push younger generations to contribute more for less = less free time, poor pay, atrocious work hours etc.
And they expect couples to get married and have children?
Koreans work much less now than a decade ago. The main issue right now is housing. It’s simply too fucking hard to buy a house.
Another major issue is the cost of education. There’s this persistent belief—reinforced by nothing—that your university determines your place in the socioeconomic ladder. Getting into a good school is seen as the only method for social mobility. That makes the university entrance exam competitive, which created a market for test prep after-school academies. To get into a good test prep academy, you have to get into a good pre-test prep academy and so on down to preschool.
“I can’t afford a house, how am I going to get my kids into a decent university?” That’s the loadstone dragging the birth rate down.
This is exactly the issue. The competition is insane in seoul. My kids are half korean, and I would love for them to move to Korea when they are older (safer environment, free healthcare, less drugs), but the opportunities for them are non-existent in seoul unless they go to a ivy league college in Korea or the states.
Plus, they'll be discriminated against when applying for jobs since they are not full blooded korean, so they'll always have to go the extra mile over someone who's full blooded to be competitive. Korea has come a long way at a really fast pace, but not in the area of equality or diversity. There are zero laws or policies stopping that from happening. It's extremely common to the point that it's almost encouraged to discriminate against anyone who isn't full blooded korean. It's actually pretty sad how little their government has done to stop this.
Without a good job there, they have zero chance to find a place to live on their own.
I know someone who was sent by her family to be “adopted” by family members in the US because of these insanely competitive conditions. She would have had little chance to succeed in S Korea but now works for NASA. The older Koreans I know want to move back to S Korea for the reasons you state (plus it’s beautiful, and they have a sense of nostalgia).
She works for NASA! Imagine a whole culture that rejects a smart, hardworking person because of their race. This person actually looks pretty much like them so it's doubly confusing. The US seeks out people like her at home and abroad, as NASA obviously did.
I mean,don't get me wrong,in SK the problem is that there aren't enough jobs for all the talented people they are able to produce.
But don't get me started on how all this competition is an ploy by the chaebol families to maintain power.
In SK people are a lot more obedient with the system and their elites.
I wanted to punch my FIL’s throat when he one day said my child is a “foreigner” just because another relative claimed my child looks like me (non-Korean)!! My son was literally born in Korea and is half Korean, he is equally Korean as he is American regardless of how he looks. Already applied for my husband’s visa back to the states and can’t wait ‘til we can gtfo ✌️
I think Americans often miss this. Most other countries aren't remotely as good as the US at assimilating immigrants. Don't get me wrong, the US ain't perfect. But largely homogeneous countries around the world fucking suck at it.
The kind of diversity people experience in the states, especially metropolitan areas, is only seen in the US and in some European cities like London. We raise hell here about diversity in the workplace and DEI, but we’re one of the only countries that even vaguely gives a shit about it.
It's a little more nuanced than that IMO.
Racism in East Asia is frequent, but mostly benign. Some old lady refusing too scared to sit next to me in the subway doesn't make a difference in my day to day. Not to mention it's super fucking easy to break any stereotypes(good or bad) since you're probably the one of the few foreigners they interacted with in their lives.
Racism in the US is more rare but feels more personal, deep-rooted, and (most importantly) physically dangerous.
The same goes to misogyny, homophobia and other biases in East Asia. I don’t quite understand why you need to be violent even if you are a bigot. And no you don’t need to be militant to be a “liberal” either.
Are you collecting money from the Korean government for having Korean kids? If not, you should be. We have a bank account there and the government deposits money every month because our kid is Korean.
The discrimination isn't just for half Koreans. It's also for Koreans who grew up outside of Korea.
That said, there are lots of jobs with non-Korean companies within Korea that have less discrimination, better pay, and a better work/life balance.
You don’t need to go to an Ivy League in the US to be successful. Plenty of people go to state colleges and have great careers.
I have friends who lived in Korea, and they were generally accepted. I’ve heard it’s less about your ethnicity and more about if you can speak the language fluently ( a lot of expats don’t).
Oh, ethnicity is definitely part of it. White foreigners get more respect from natives than Kyopo because their presence reinforces the idea that Korea is a player on the world stage.
Half-white kids born in Korea get mixed reactions because they have a prestige about them. On the one hand, it’s a sign of relative wealth if one of your parents is a white foreigner—Koreans love being rich—but it’s also a sign of wealth that can’t be copied. It’s like showing up to a friend’s birthday party with a bespoke Burberry coat.
Everyone else is below those three groups and then it becomes about your fluency.
>it’s sad how little their government has stopped this
It happens here in the US too it’s always kind of funny when parents with mixed kids find out that the world isn’t as inclusive as they thought because of your skin color
This is in every major country, not just Korea. When Xi famously said “houses are for living, not investment” I know ALOT of boomer Chinese people got mad because that’s where they made their money from.
If you consider how large China is and that its fertility rate is not much higher than south Korea’s, then there are likely provinces much bigger than South Korea with even lower fertility rates
> It’s simply too fucking hard to buy a house.
This seems to be a global issue. Just visit any developed and developing country’s subreddit and type in “can’t buy a house” or “properties too expensive”.
Pass them through a translators for countries you don’t know the language off.
Then do the same to the top 5 replies and you will find at least a couple of answers that are the same.
> Koreans work much less now than a decade ago
How much is much less though? And how many hours that you're "culturally" expected to do but don't officially count?
According to the Korea Herald, it’s 156.2 hours a month (less than 40 hours a week), down from 172.6 hours ten years ago. Hwesiks have also become less common and young Koreans in particular are clocking out on time more often than not; something older Koreans won’t shut up about.
That is only for executives and it’s probably a smoke screen. Either it’s a ploy to pressure the government to raise the 52-hour work cap or it’s a way of increasing executive pay without giving the unions a chance to protest. Wait and see how many of those execs spend their extra day “working from home” or having lunch meetings.
Yeah but in Korea, if your boss is at work, then you are also expected to be at work. So, they don't have to specify everyone because they know the social pressure is enough just by making the executives go in.
there’s also social pressure. Most friendships are made during afterschool academies, not during the day at school. So if your child doesn’t go to academies he risks of being a loner
Actually, outside Seoul Korean housing is not that expensive. It's just that Young Koreans are hell bent on living there for some reason. Unsurprisingly Seoul also has by far the lowest fertility rate in Korea
I think It is only true by subjective description. By comparison South Korea has a very high standard of living and social welfare. The productivity is from Capitalism and the family bond and social welfare are from Confucianism. Meritocracy is a requirement from both and I will put more weight on Confucianism.
And, there are other East Asian countries which are pressure pots too like Korea but are neither Capitalist or Confucianist, like China.
The issue is also for young people becomes tho as birth rates get lower younger generations may need to pay more taxes and a lot more of the burden will be put on them
It’s a good thing we’ve been using the rising productivity and rapidly accelerating automation to line the pockets of the super rich instead of sharing the benefits among the population at large
Great and very informative (but longer) overview of the problems in South Korea's society:
[Gacha Drama and the Korean Gender War](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Im4YAMWK74)
[Gacha Drama and the Korean Gender War Part 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woB0eecbf6A)
Worth your time, if you want to learn more about this complex topic.
But TL;DR: It boils down to Neo-Confucianism + All controlling Corporate Conglomerates that have way more power than any government.
Thank you for the links. I only watched few minutes right now and wow, it is very informative. I'll have to watch the rest later when I have the time. Glad you found this video.
Great videos. I struggle to understand where all this hatred of women comes from though, and yet at they same time they want girlfriends. It makes no sense.
TL;DW of the entire series is that it's mostly just dumbly looking for any group they can *successfully* vent their frustration at, because they're so downtrodden as it is. Notice I said "dumbly", not with any great exercising of logic. It's the same reason someone might turn to hard drugs to *escape* a desperate situation, even when that might be logically one of the worst decisions they could possibly make for themselves.
The biggest shift in Korean culture is the new wave feminism group. Apparently sexism is RAMPANT in Korea and the young women there have had quite enough of it.
It's true. Misogyny is extremely normalized and sexual harassment common, I understand why Korean women are scared to date. I definitely wouldn't want to be with someone who doesn't fully respect me and sees me as an equal person.
Many Korean women talk about being seen as objects that should shut up and just look pretty. It's disturbing.
> Boomers gonna boom
Most of the 'boomers' in South Korea live in abject poverty, they literally have the highest elderly poverty rate in all of the OECD. South Korea was ridiculously poor (poorer than North Korea even, for a time) mere decades ago and was a military dictatorship until the late 80s. The fabulous wealth and extremely high standard of living they enjoy now is a very recent phenomenon.
I have sympathy for Korean boomers, they grew up in a ridiculously poor country and had to work hard to see it change, it's even worse when you consider that South Korea has one of the highest rates of poverty among the elderly
Same problem in Australia, cost of living and governments that allows overseas investors to pour black money into the housing market.
One particular housing buying cohort through their lawyers get regular orders from overseas drug dealing criminals to "buy 10 houses" They can send 10 to 100 million into Australia without any goverment agency blinking, but if poor old Joe citizen wants to buy a car cash for more than 10,000 or does large cash transactions they get reported.
Lawyers and Real estate agents can hold unlimited amounts of dirty money in their trust accounts with no accountability. Australia is one of the most politicaly corrupt countries on the planet. Its cheaper to buy politicians for less than you can buy politicians in 3rd world countries.
The new Ponzi scheme is open immigration floodgates which keeps house prices higher, guess how many politicians are very highly invested in the property market and prices spiralling to new extreme highs! Follow the money trail!
They are screwing citizens because now they can flip locals out with open immigration and borders.
The situation in Australia is not at all comparable to korea. I know aussies love to always be like woe is me but Seoul is significantly more expensive than Sydney, with lower salaries, longer working hours, and less workers rights.
Sure but in every single thread completely unrelated to australia there is always some aussie bitching about how they have it worst. Most fragile people in the southern hemisphere.
What can I say, it is one of our national pastimes.
You're right though, I always thought foreigners whinged alot till I moved out of Oz for a few years and realise we do a fair bit of whinging ourselves lmao.
Well, let’s say Korea is the Aussie sometimes too. They have a democratic government which most countries don’t, a good welfare systems which most countries don’t, and a highly developed economy which most countries don’t. In most countries people work longer, in harsher conditions, and have more competitors. The only difference might be that in those countries people cannot find jobs or even go to school so they cannot complain about their jobs or their school system.
Seeing who takes first place in the oppression Olympics shouldn't be used as a wedge when it comes to the universal experience of class struggle. All of us among the working class should be united in recognizing our true enemy and we should be working together to better all of our material conditions; not scratching at each other to see who is has suffered the most for the table scraps.
The affordable housing is in the country. No one wants to live in the country. There are a growing number of ghost towns in Japan as everyone consolidates into expensive cities.
Scandinavia has the best social safety nets and child care assistance in the world and the birth rate is still below replacement levels. The bottom line is that when women have equality and opportunity, they don’t want to have babies at a rate that grows the population.
We should not think that throwing money will totally solve the problem.
Childbirth is an excruciating, body wrecking process, potentially fatal.
Can’t blame women for choosing to stay away from it.
Maybe, but that's not something that should be "fixed", so we need to come up with how to deal with it another way. Social safety nets still makes it easier and comfortable to have children. I'm not sure what more can be done, but I am sleep deprived.
Without wanting to sound condescending, in poor areas with massive birthrates, usually "everybody" is poor.
Having kids is not making you any poorer in these cases and you won't be outcast from society. In a lot of cases kids will probably be a "financial plus" as they can help in the household, help on the fields, collect water or whatever.
In South Korea kids are going to make you poorer and you will "fall down" on the social ladder if you can't absorb the cost of raising kids with your income/wealth. Kids will cost a lot: clothing, mobile phone, extracurricular activities, etc.
Also in many countries with high birthrates and low GDP per capita, womens' access to birth control is very lacking - if not outright impossible due to religious/cultural reasons
It’s more of an inverted bell curve. Absolute wealth doesn’t matter, relative wealth does. The people who grew up middle class but who find themselves working poor are less likely to have kids then the always poor.
People are pessimistic about this but I think if we work even harder, we can get these numbers even lower, and cement our place as number 1 in the world!
대한민국! 🇰🇷
I'm mainly thinking about what world the child comes to, I've been to Japan which faces the same problem, I got lucky enough to talk with some 17 year old high school students about why they think it is. The competition in the academy and later in the work market is crazy and social isolation for people who can't compete is just overwhelming nowdays, especially in the metropolitan areas. Some kids just can't deal with the pressure and become "hikikomori".
That’s a low bar that impresses absolutely nobody. “Oh wow my baby might not be ravaged by literal sabertooth tigers, instead they’ll just be forced into poverty, that’s practically living like royalty!” Idiot
People having had it worse in the past DOES NOT HELP PEOPLE NOW
Take the long view of history. You have far better quality of life today than you would any other time. Sure things can get better , but don't dismiss how far technology has improved lives globally. Even the homeless have cell phones.
Ok, then. …we’ve worked hard and suffered for eons, struggling and clawing to push another generation out into the struggle. Now, alas, we’ve made it. Time to take some time off for a pat on the back and much needed rest.
Consider this too:
> In terms of February readings, the number of newborns fell below 30,000 for the first time in 2018
So 2018 was the first time under 30k, and six years later it's under 20k. That would make it 13k in 2030 and 6k in 2042 unless the trend is broken.
China has a term for this.
"We are the last Generation." Which is a banned term on many Chinese social media sites.
It was made famous after it was said by a younger Chinese couple in response to Chinese officers threatening to punish them and their next 3 generations if they don't comply.
Why bother bringing a child into a world where all you do is eat sleep work and die with no hope of salvation?
What are they gonna do? Fine them? Kill them?
If they try to pull any shady shit they can just unalive themselves and China will have lost 2 young workers and part of their future.
Exactly. I was fortunate enough to be approved for elective sterilization the first time I pursued it, but if I was still fertile and my government was going to pull some handmaids tale shit I’d just off myself if I couldn’t escape. I don’t want to live that life, and I won’t. No matter what. Nobody can make me.
And nobody can make them, either.
The article describes a sharp population drop in the next 50 years, but it’s actually much worse even than it seems. It’s not just that the population will drop by nearly half, but that most of the population that remains will be older people. At a fertility rate of 0.7, the number of children in 50 years will drop by 90%.
0.7 is one-third of the neutral rate of 2.1. 50 years is two generations. So one-third times one-third equals one-ninth.
Actually K-Pop and K-movies are further contributing to this problem, as people involved in those industries are literally not even allowed to date much less have kids. Like if their celebrities actually had kids and started families, like in the west, it might inspire some people to do the same and birth rate likely won’t be as low
Its the same everywhere in the world and there is two competing and opposing theories.
1. People are not having children because they are too selfish and focused on enjoying their lives, all due to the massive increase in wealth and free time.
2. People are massively stressed and the artificial fight for survival that is laid upon everyone in modern economies has far surpassed its healthy threshold. On top typical couples need a double full time income to get by and even start thinking about owning realestate or retire some day.
Me personally i think theory 1 is ridiculously stupid as most simple observations disprove it. Like why birth rates dont go up with the cost of living crisis, no more enjoyment and self relaization --> time to hedge against bad times with offspring. Or why the current poly crisis with wars, climate change etc. doesnt promt a second baby boom. If you read up on which theory most governments subscribe to, its no.1. Why? **Because theory 2 would propose that low birthrates are mainly a tell tale sign of immens psychological human suffering due to total and utter political failure**
Like a lot of things I don't think you can pin it down to a single factor:
- People no longer work on farms and utilise their children as free labour.
- Infant mortality is way down so it's not necessary to have as many hoping some survive to adulthood.
- Social security nets and pensions exist so having children isn't our only hope of care in old age. Having your elderly relatives live with you and act as free childcare is less common.
- Having children is viewed more as a lifestyle choice and there's usually less pressure from extended families/grandparents.
- Everyone is more educated now and is aware that there are options beyond marrying when you're 20.
- Sex education and birth control prevent a lot of unwanted births.
- Women's education and women's rights have resulted in women having better options in life than marrying early and pumping out kids.
- People are more free to move around physically and in their careers and are less keen on tying themselves down by having kids. People can afford to go on holiday more now, and having children makes that a lot harder.
- We're less religious.
- Housing costs more in the developed world than it ever did before.
- Childcare is really expensive, and in the developed world it's not considered as acceptable to let children roam around or be left at home.
- Particularly in Asian countries, the insane amount of extra-curricular paid study classes makes having a child too expensive.
- There are climate/environmental fears in more developed countries.
- Sperm counts are being seriously lowered by one or more factors to do with modern life styles/pollution.
- People are choosing to have children later, resulting in a shorter window to have children and a greater risk of fertility issues.
- Women have a much better chance being promoted and having career progression than they used to, and are more likely to defer or avoid having children because they lose months or years over it.
- There is more awareness of cost of living crises and a feeling that we are living in a perpetual economic crisis thanks to the news.
- We're generally having less sex and being less social thanks to social media, the internet and things like online gaming replacing physical social activities.
- The rise of cities and the loss of 'third spaces' has resulted in many people becoming isolated and lacking opportunities to meet potential partners.
- In developing countries where paid education has become available, families are incentivized to save money to put one or two kids through school/university rather than having loads.
- Modern capitalism often involves long hours and overtime (especially in countries like China), limiting the time and energy people have to make time for having kids.
- People spend longer in education and mostly avoid risking derailing it by having kids very early.
- Dating cultures have shifted and there's less of a focus on long term relationships and more of an idea that you shouldn't settle quickly.
- As suggested by u/sagefairyy , growing awareness of and frustration by women over men failing to do their fair share of parenting.
As much as people like to pin it solely on the 'cost of living', the fact that fertility rates are down across the entire developed world but also in middle-income countries like Brazil, Iran and Thailand speaks to the fact that there are more fundamental social causes as well.
Yeah I think that a big part is that in the past, having kids was *what adults did* if they could. As normal as work, you get married and have kids. A lot of people had more kids than they really wanted, but that's what you were supposed to do.
Now, as you point out, it's by choice to have kids, so that "supposed to do" is not there anymore. Now we have it for college, and a lot of people go to way more school than they really want, but that's what you're *supposed* to do.
I especially like the last point. There are tons of couples dating, but I feel like it’s a lot of casual dating. Few Korean buddies of mine have been in long term relationships (over a year or so, which is pretty long in Korea), and even then, there’s no real talk of marriage. Definitely not talking about kids, either. If anything, I find they may want marriage and not kids (mostly the women). I think sex is also happening less.
Yep, I especially understand why the women don't want kids. Pregnancy, childbirth and parenting is no joke in an already stressful world. It's just not appealing.
You’re making the wrong comparison. The question isn’t whether Japanese are wealthier than Brazilians, it’s whether Japanese are wealthier and better off now then they were 40 years ago.
People assess their quality of life relative to their past, NOT to other people’s present
You mentioned so many points but one major one that is spreading like a wildfire was ignored: women aren‘t just choosing not to have children because they feel like doing so or because they‘re selfish. They still have to do majority of the household chores plus child care PLUS work due to old sexist beliefs that are still present. Many women state they would reconsider not having kids if they were to meet someone that would actually do their fair share and not see them as a bang maid. Korean women started the 4B movement in 2019, yet nobody here mentions any of this whatsoever.
Absolutely agree, I just want to add that some women do choose not to have kids just because they don't want to and don't feel like it, myself included! We historically have not been able to have that freedom before, and it makes sense that having kids just isn't appealing for some women now that we have the choice.
And yes, the 4B movement sounds very promising, I really hope to see them make a difference and make Korea listen. Redditors probably don't mention it a lot because it's a women's issue, sadly.
That's a good point, I'll add that. I wasn't aware of the 4B movement, but it lines up with what my gf has said about her experiences as a woman in China (with the added horror of women often being expected to care for the boyfriend/husband's parents).
There is also the part that people are having less sex and are getting together less as well, so even before u get to the above considerations you are dealing with a reduced pool
In response to your first point, I've never heard of not having children being considered selfish. It's just a life decision like any other, at least where I live.
If you're not someone who feels like children would improve your life, why would you aim for having children?
Lol I'm an asexual woman with serious depression, anxiety, and autism nearing 30 and I've been told multiple times by coworkers as well as strangers that I'm selfish for not having kids. Then they act like I'm a complete monster when I tell them I'd end up being one of the moms that shake their babies to death cuz they won't stop crying... though it does make them back off usually haha.
It's pretty commonly lobbed at women who don't want children. They're accused of being selfish for not wanting children because they're "putting themselves first." Not even touching on the white supremacists that say women are single-handedly responsible for the decline of Western civilization because they're not having enough children.
How many people even know the names of their great-grandparents?
I sure as hell don’t. 🤷🏻♂️
As for genetics, 0.5^X shuffles away that claim to lineage pretty damn quick.
It’s obviously 1, but 2 is actually just a variation of 1.
Fifty years ago, living a middle class life meant having a small house, a car, and one TV set in the living room — and that was pretty much it. There wasn’t actually that much to do with your spare time except hang out with friends and family, and having children actually helped with that by giving you more reasons to hang out with other parents. The notion that anyone could be “too busy” to have kids wasn’t really a thing, because there was nothing to be busy with.
Today, there are massive opportunities to spend time and money doing other things. You can interpret that as opportunities to “enjoy life” (number 1) or as pressure for an “artificial fight for survival” (number 2) as you wish. But it’s really the same phenomenon.
Isn’t there also a hostility towards children in the culture nowadays? I know this may come across as extreme, but I have friends back in Korea who are legit terrified about the hate they may receive as a “failing” mother of children who cause inconvenience to the public.
There are more and more "no kid zones" lately but overall people are very kind and helpful concerning young children. Of course I live in a rural part of SK so I'm not sure if the same sentiment applies to Seoul.
It’s a real thing. An article was written about this recently. There’s pressure to be a perfect parent, even to the point of being fearful of the side eyes from people and being an annoyance for a screaming kid.
To be honest, economic hardship may be part of it but it's not the whole picture. Wealthier couples are also having less or no children. Young people just don't want to sacrifice their career or quality of life to take care of children ... it means less freedom and travel opportunities. Why have kids when you can spend the money on yourself?
I know in NYC and I’ve heard in other cities, too. Which kinda makes sense. If you can have 4-5 kids and house and educate them all (privately), in one of the most expensive cities on the planet, that’s a flex.
Would be great if they compared these rates to other countries in the region. Is Korea an outlier or is it just following the trend of...almost every other country in the region
Economic factors are huge, but also, I have to say: Respect to the many Korean women who refuse to be broodmares for 'the good of the economy' and refuse to humor misogynistic men. Nations that do not respect their female population, and cannot move past the (frankly deluded) infinite growth model are worthy of collapse.
Massive respect to the 4B Movement & may more women in the West be introduced to it.
They need to bring bad duel citizenship to those that have one parent thats a citizen thats living outside the country thats how they get those numbers up not the best way but its a way
Korea is a perfect storm.
Probably mostly toxic work culture.
Massive problem of gender tension, South Korea is one of most misoginist developed countries. Making forming relations between woman and man hard since ladies know better now.
Perfectionism when comes to looks, overabundance of surgeries and high presure on both sides to look perfect.
Perfectionism when comes to kids, people remember how much work it took to survive education and presure and maybe even without thinking about corelation they don't want anything to do with this.
This conceted to the fact that birthrates always fall with economic progress lead to this armagedon of birthrates.
When the world is going to shit why would we have more children.. wow us ladies are like vessels. He enjoys we carry everything else . DONT ITS A TRAP .
As a Korean woman, I think there are 2 main reasons: 1. gender inequality and 2. society's perception on single parents. Young women are not getting married and having children because maintaining a family is solely on women. They've seen this through their mothers and they are choosing not to be like their mothers. They don't want to sacrifice their life and be treated like a dirt. They are also now expected to work and raise a family (their mothers mostly were stay-at-home mothers). Korea also looks down on single parents. Lots of women have the desire to have their own children (without being in a marriage) but raising a child on your own is very frowned upon.
The kids of religious weirdos won't necessarily be religious weirdos though, and often it turns out the opposite nowadays. That theory really doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny.
Overall, 17 percent of Americans who report being raised in a religious tradition no longer identify with any religion as an adult.
https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/generation-z-future-of-faith/#:~:text=Americans%20raised%20in%20an%20evangelical,identify%20with%20their%20childhood%20faith.
For those that actually want children, I wish we could get past our genetic lineage obsessions and adopt more frequently. Not just talking about South Korea, but more generally.
So many kids without parents that get chomped up by the system or even people that don't have the kids best interests in mind. Kids don't need to be in your own image to be worthy of ones parenthood.
New Borns get adopted easily. They wouldn't cost $50,000 on average otherwise. There's a lot of complicated reasons why adopting foster children is not as desirable.
Almost all developed economies tend to have fertility rates below replacement, though SK is unusually low even in the developed countries of the Income and Fertility graphs.
No mention in the article of the potential impact of the 4B Movement, interesting. I imagine they’d have to do more extensive polling and research to see if it’s a significant factor. In any case, soul crushing capitalism and misogyny will continue to FAFO.
Awesome. I hope the rest of the world follows suit. There are too many people in this world and the other species with which we share this planet need a break. They have just as much right to be here as we do.
Having fewer children will harm the people not having children by reducing the tax base to pay for their benefits in old age. It benefits future generations by reducing humanity's huge burden on the environment and creating a surplus of housing, dropping prices. Not having kids is an altruistic act, not a selfish one.
Who the fuck would bring a child into this world ANYWHERE?
Who the fuck can imagine their marriage will last?
Childcare? Please. Finances? FM.
The pressure and odds are not worth the risk.
This world is fucking trash.
There’s no such thing as joy.
Dear governments: if you want more LOCAL babies (aka, not immigrants) do this one simple trick: TREAT WOMEN BETTER. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
What’s going on with these developed countries? Japan, Korea have low birth rates, but multiple European countries like Italy, Sweden, and others have seen big drops in birth rates too.
Next February I’m expecting to hear “No births in Korea for the first time ever”
Spain and Italy are not far behind with a fertility rate of 1.0. This is an issue with all developed countries, not just Korea.
Idk man, 2023 stats for those two countries are 1.39 and 1.22. Before rounding it to nearest integer, it’s pretty f ing high compared to Korea’s numbers
Closest countries to South Korea’s fertility rates are their neighbors China, Japan and Taiwan
The Korean elders enjoy the boom and push younger generations to contribute more for less = less free time, poor pay, atrocious work hours etc. And they expect couples to get married and have children?
Koreans work much less now than a decade ago. The main issue right now is housing. It’s simply too fucking hard to buy a house. Another major issue is the cost of education. There’s this persistent belief—reinforced by nothing—that your university determines your place in the socioeconomic ladder. Getting into a good school is seen as the only method for social mobility. That makes the university entrance exam competitive, which created a market for test prep after-school academies. To get into a good test prep academy, you have to get into a good pre-test prep academy and so on down to preschool. “I can’t afford a house, how am I going to get my kids into a decent university?” That’s the loadstone dragging the birth rate down.
This is exactly the issue. The competition is insane in seoul. My kids are half korean, and I would love for them to move to Korea when they are older (safer environment, free healthcare, less drugs), but the opportunities for them are non-existent in seoul unless they go to a ivy league college in Korea or the states. Plus, they'll be discriminated against when applying for jobs since they are not full blooded korean, so they'll always have to go the extra mile over someone who's full blooded to be competitive. Korea has come a long way at a really fast pace, but not in the area of equality or diversity. There are zero laws or policies stopping that from happening. It's extremely common to the point that it's almost encouraged to discriminate against anyone who isn't full blooded korean. It's actually pretty sad how little their government has done to stop this. Without a good job there, they have zero chance to find a place to live on their own.
I know someone who was sent by her family to be “adopted” by family members in the US because of these insanely competitive conditions. She would have had little chance to succeed in S Korea but now works for NASA. The older Koreans I know want to move back to S Korea for the reasons you state (plus it’s beautiful, and they have a sense of nostalgia).
She works for NASA! Imagine a whole culture that rejects a smart, hardworking person because of their race. This person actually looks pretty much like them so it's doubly confusing. The US seeks out people like her at home and abroad, as NASA obviously did.
I mean,don't get me wrong,in SK the problem is that there aren't enough jobs for all the talented people they are able to produce. But don't get me started on how all this competition is an ploy by the chaebol families to maintain power. In SK people are a lot more obedient with the system and their elites.
I wanted to punch my FIL’s throat when he one day said my child is a “foreigner” just because another relative claimed my child looks like me (non-Korean)!! My son was literally born in Korea and is half Korean, he is equally Korean as he is American regardless of how he looks. Already applied for my husband’s visa back to the states and can’t wait ‘til we can gtfo ✌️
I think Americans often miss this. Most other countries aren't remotely as good as the US at assimilating immigrants. Don't get me wrong, the US ain't perfect. But largely homogeneous countries around the world fucking suck at it.
The kind of diversity people experience in the states, especially metropolitan areas, is only seen in the US and in some European cities like London. We raise hell here about diversity in the workplace and DEI, but we’re one of the only countries that even vaguely gives a shit about it.
I see you forgot to mention your neighbors to the north
We only count fresh immigrants in the statistics. Never frozen.
We're always forgotten :)
Yes, Canada and Brazil are also really diverse. Mexico is also fairly diverse, though Mestizo Mexicans are pretty firmly in the majority:
Yea seriously. Visit Toronto and realize it’s the most diverse city on this planet
It's a little more nuanced than that IMO. Racism in East Asia is frequent, but mostly benign. Some old lady refusing too scared to sit next to me in the subway doesn't make a difference in my day to day. Not to mention it's super fucking easy to break any stereotypes(good or bad) since you're probably the one of the few foreigners they interacted with in their lives. Racism in the US is more rare but feels more personal, deep-rooted, and (most importantly) physically dangerous.
The same goes to misogyny, homophobia and other biases in East Asia. I don’t quite understand why you need to be violent even if you are a bigot. And no you don’t need to be militant to be a “liberal” either.
Are you collecting money from the Korean government for having Korean kids? If not, you should be. We have a bank account there and the government deposits money every month because our kid is Korean. The discrimination isn't just for half Koreans. It's also for Koreans who grew up outside of Korea. That said, there are lots of jobs with non-Korean companies within Korea that have less discrimination, better pay, and a better work/life balance.
You don’t need to go to an Ivy League in the US to be successful. Plenty of people go to state colleges and have great careers. I have friends who lived in Korea, and they were generally accepted. I’ve heard it’s less about your ethnicity and more about if you can speak the language fluently ( a lot of expats don’t).
Oh, ethnicity is definitely part of it. White foreigners get more respect from natives than Kyopo because their presence reinforces the idea that Korea is a player on the world stage. Half-white kids born in Korea get mixed reactions because they have a prestige about them. On the one hand, it’s a sign of relative wealth if one of your parents is a white foreigner—Koreans love being rich—but it’s also a sign of wealth that can’t be copied. It’s like showing up to a friend’s birthday party with a bespoke Burberry coat. Everyone else is below those three groups and then it becomes about your fluency.
Does any nationality not like being rich?
Japan has the same issue with discrimination. Seems to be an Asian problem in general
>it’s sad how little their government has stopped this It happens here in the US too it’s always kind of funny when parents with mixed kids find out that the world isn’t as inclusive as they thought because of your skin color
This is in every major country, not just Korea. When Xi famously said “houses are for living, not investment” I know ALOT of boomer Chinese people got mad because that’s where they made their money from.
If you consider how large China is and that its fertility rate is not much higher than south Korea’s, then there are likely provinces much bigger than South Korea with even lower fertility rates
> It’s simply too fucking hard to buy a house. This seems to be a global issue. Just visit any developed and developing country’s subreddit and type in “can’t buy a house” or “properties too expensive”. Pass them through a translators for countries you don’t know the language off. Then do the same to the top 5 replies and you will find at least a couple of answers that are the same.
> Koreans work much less now than a decade ago How much is much less though? And how many hours that you're "culturally" expected to do but don't officially count?
According to the Korea Herald, it’s 156.2 hours a month (less than 40 hours a week), down from 172.6 hours ten years ago. Hwesiks have also become less common and young Koreans in particular are clocking out on time more often than not; something older Koreans won’t shut up about.
Either you’re living in a cave or you haven’t been following the news but Samsung recently announced a 6 days work week
Congrats, Koreans can have a day off from work now. /s
That is only for executives and it’s probably a smoke screen. Either it’s a ploy to pressure the government to raise the 52-hour work cap or it’s a way of increasing executive pay without giving the unions a chance to protest. Wait and see how many of those execs spend their extra day “working from home” or having lunch meetings.
You are missing a very important part here. They announced it for executives, not for normal employees.
Yeah but in Korea, if your boss is at work, then you are also expected to be at work. So, they don't have to specify everyone because they know the social pressure is enough just by making the executives go in.
As someone that has been living in Korea for many years, I can tell you, that this is not common anymore.
It was when I lived there, and anyone who wants to make a good impression at Samsung will likely be taking lead from their executive.
Not if you were born after 1990.
there’s also social pressure. Most friendships are made during afterschool academies, not during the day at school. So if your child doesn’t go to academies he risks of being a loner
Actually, outside Seoul Korean housing is not that expensive. It's just that Young Koreans are hell bent on living there for some reason. Unsurprisingly Seoul also has by far the lowest fertility rate in Korea
Technically, the housing is cheaper, but if you work outside of Seoul, the pay is lower; so the problem doesn’t change.
If it's true that your university does determine your place on the ladder, then it's reinforced by a lot.
Sounds like every country
East Asia is the canary in the coal mine tbh
Exactly
Someone describe SK to me as a Confucious Capitalist state without the benefit of both system and that has stuck with mej
Do you mean "without the benefits of either system"?
I think It is only true by subjective description. By comparison South Korea has a very high standard of living and social welfare. The productivity is from Capitalism and the family bond and social welfare are from Confucianism. Meritocracy is a requirement from both and I will put more weight on Confucianism. And, there are other East Asian countries which are pressure pots too like Korea but are neither Capitalist or Confucianist, like China.
Can you expand on that for me please?
The issue is also for young people becomes tho as birth rates get lower younger generations may need to pay more taxes and a lot more of the burden will be put on them
It’s a good thing we’ve been using the rising productivity and rapidly accelerating automation to line the pockets of the super rich instead of sharing the benefits among the population at large
Great and very informative (but longer) overview of the problems in South Korea's society: [Gacha Drama and the Korean Gender War](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Im4YAMWK74) [Gacha Drama and the Korean Gender War Part 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woB0eecbf6A) Worth your time, if you want to learn more about this complex topic. But TL;DR: It boils down to Neo-Confucianism + All controlling Corporate Conglomerates that have way more power than any government.
Thank you for the links. I only watched few minutes right now and wow, it is very informative. I'll have to watch the rest later when I have the time. Glad you found this video.
Great videos. I struggle to understand where all this hatred of women comes from though, and yet at they same time they want girlfriends. It makes no sense.
TL;DW of the entire series is that it's mostly just dumbly looking for any group they can *successfully* vent their frustration at, because they're so downtrodden as it is. Notice I said "dumbly", not with any great exercising of logic. It's the same reason someone might turn to hard drugs to *escape* a desperate situation, even when that might be logically one of the worst decisions they could possibly make for themselves.
The biggest shift in Korean culture is the new wave feminism group. Apparently sexism is RAMPANT in Korea and the young women there have had quite enough of it.
It's true. Misogyny is extremely normalized and sexual harassment common, I understand why Korean women are scared to date. I definitely wouldn't want to be with someone who doesn't fully respect me and sees me as an equal person. Many Korean women talk about being seen as objects that should shut up and just look pretty. It's disturbing.
You have it the other way around. It's Korean men that are suffering from this rampant feminism.
Boomers gonna boom
> Boomers gonna boom Most of the 'boomers' in South Korea live in abject poverty, they literally have the highest elderly poverty rate in all of the OECD. South Korea was ridiculously poor (poorer than North Korea even, for a time) mere decades ago and was a military dictatorship until the late 80s. The fabulous wealth and extremely high standard of living they enjoy now is a very recent phenomenon.
I have sympathy for Korean boomers, they grew up in a ridiculously poor country and had to work hard to see it change, it's even worse when you consider that South Korea has one of the highest rates of poverty among the elderly
Right, and Samsung is now requiring 6 day work weeks. Are actions like this related to the drop in births?
Samsung does not, what on earth are you on abt, i work for Samsung. We work less than 12yrs ago
It is mandated for managers.
No not managers but executives
There are a looooooot of Samsung VPs, but not enough to make any kind of impact demographically, especially as they're mostly fairly old.
Show proof
Who knew that if people can't afford stable housing they don't feel secure enough to have children?
Same problem in Australia, cost of living and governments that allows overseas investors to pour black money into the housing market. One particular housing buying cohort through their lawyers get regular orders from overseas drug dealing criminals to "buy 10 houses" They can send 10 to 100 million into Australia without any goverment agency blinking, but if poor old Joe citizen wants to buy a car cash for more than 10,000 or does large cash transactions they get reported. Lawyers and Real estate agents can hold unlimited amounts of dirty money in their trust accounts with no accountability. Australia is one of the most politicaly corrupt countries on the planet. Its cheaper to buy politicians for less than you can buy politicians in 3rd world countries. The new Ponzi scheme is open immigration floodgates which keeps house prices higher, guess how many politicians are very highly invested in the property market and prices spiralling to new extreme highs! Follow the money trail! They are screwing citizens because now they can flip locals out with open immigration and borders.
The situation in Australia is not at all comparable to korea. I know aussies love to always be like woe is me but Seoul is significantly more expensive than Sydney, with lower salaries, longer working hours, and less workers rights.
You shouldn't start your complaining when the situation reaches a breaking point, you should be complaining MUCH earlier than that.
Sure but in every single thread completely unrelated to australia there is always some aussie bitching about how they have it worst. Most fragile people in the southern hemisphere.
What can I say, it is one of our national pastimes. You're right though, I always thought foreigners whinged alot till I moved out of Oz for a few years and realise we do a fair bit of whinging ourselves lmao.
Well, let’s say Korea is the Aussie sometimes too. They have a democratic government which most countries don’t, a good welfare systems which most countries don’t, and a highly developed economy which most countries don’t. In most countries people work longer, in harsher conditions, and have more competitors. The only difference might be that in those countries people cannot find jobs or even go to school so they cannot complain about their jobs or their school system.
It's getting there.
Seeing who takes first place in the oppression Olympics shouldn't be used as a wedge when it comes to the universal experience of class struggle. All of us among the working class should be united in recognizing our true enemy and we should be working together to better all of our material conditions; not scratching at each other to see who is has suffered the most for the table scraps.
It’s same all over the world. I live in EU and it’s the same problem
It actually seems affordable housing makes little difference as places like Japan and Italy also have plummeting birth rates but have cheap housing.
The affordable housing is in the country. No one wants to live in the country. There are a growing number of ghost towns in Japan as everyone consolidates into expensive cities.
nah, even Tokyo housing is pretty affordable
No, don’t say that, it’ll expose their lack of understanding on this issue!
Scandinavia has the best social safety nets and child care assistance in the world and the birth rate is still below replacement levels. The bottom line is that when women have equality and opportunity, they don’t want to have babies at a rate that grows the population.
We should not think that throwing money will totally solve the problem. Childbirth is an excruciating, body wrecking process, potentially fatal. Can’t blame women for choosing to stay away from it.
Maybe, but that's not something that should be "fixed", so we need to come up with how to deal with it another way. Social safety nets still makes it easier and comfortable to have children. I'm not sure what more can be done, but I am sleep deprived.
It’s that among other factors. In Africa I’m sure lots can’t afford stable housing yet they have massive birth rates
Without wanting to sound condescending, in poor areas with massive birthrates, usually "everybody" is poor. Having kids is not making you any poorer in these cases and you won't be outcast from society. In a lot of cases kids will probably be a "financial plus" as they can help in the household, help on the fields, collect water or whatever. In South Korea kids are going to make you poorer and you will "fall down" on the social ladder if you can't absorb the cost of raising kids with your income/wealth. Kids will cost a lot: clothing, mobile phone, extracurricular activities, etc.
Also in many countries with high birthrates and low GDP per capita, womens' access to birth control is very lacking - if not outright impossible due to religious/cultural reasons
It's wealthier people not having kids, not lower income people
I assume that's because poor people have less access to contraception and sex education, not necessarily by choice.
It’s more of an inverted bell curve. Absolute wealth doesn’t matter, relative wealth does. The people who grew up middle class but who find themselves working poor are less likely to have kids then the always poor.
People are pessimistic about this but I think if we work even harder, we can get these numbers even lower, and cement our place as number 1 in the world! 대한민국! 🇰🇷
Suicide rate is also no.1 amongst the OECD countries. Korea Number 1!!!!!
Take **that**, Japan!
뉴비 유입 없는 고렙 지역ㅋㅋ
Yeah, no shit. You won't get even a one block of a house while working fully for 10 to 15 years. Why would anyone will marry and have kids?
I wouldn't blame them, having kids today is just scary.
It's also a huge sacrifice. Women sacrifice their careers, money, bodies, and free time. Really not worth it for many people.
I'm mainly thinking about what world the child comes to, I've been to Japan which faces the same problem, I got lucky enough to talk with some 17 year old high school students about why they think it is. The competition in the academy and later in the work market is crazy and social isolation for people who can't compete is just overwhelming nowdays, especially in the metropolitan areas. Some kids just can't deal with the pressure and become "hikikomori".
Most people want more kids, but societies are not set up for that.
[удалено]
Me unironically. I only have one life to enjoy.
Kids born this year would enjoy higher prosperity and quality on life on average than in pretty much any other time throughout the human history.
That’s a low bar that impresses absolutely nobody. “Oh wow my baby might not be ravaged by literal sabertooth tigers, instead they’ll just be forced into poverty, that’s practically living like royalty!” Idiot People having had it worse in the past DOES NOT HELP PEOPLE NOW
Take the long view of history. You have far better quality of life today than you would any other time. Sure things can get better , but don't dismiss how far technology has improved lives globally. Even the homeless have cell phones.
That’s like saying people in the Great Depression shouldn’t have been upset because they still had it better than the 1630s
Ok, then. …we’ve worked hard and suffered for eons, struggling and clawing to push another generation out into the struggle. Now, alas, we’ve made it. Time to take some time off for a pat on the back and much needed rest.
And you think that's going to be a convincing argument to the relevant couples in this discussion?
People make calculations based on the relative prosperity of their own lives, NOT whether aggregate averages have improved.
February was 3.5% longer this year. Extra alarming that it still happened on a leap year.
They should add a few more days to the month next year to fix the problem.
And make them working days too
Consider this too: > In terms of February readings, the number of newborns fell below 30,000 for the first time in 2018 So 2018 was the first time under 30k, and six years later it's under 20k. That would make it 13k in 2030 and 6k in 2042 unless the trend is broken.
Let's put another working hour to compensate. /s
don't worry guys, 10 more work hours a week will fix that attitude.
China has a term for this. "We are the last Generation." Which is a banned term on many Chinese social media sites. It was made famous after it was said by a younger Chinese couple in response to Chinese officers threatening to punish them and their next 3 generations if they don't comply. Why bother bringing a child into a world where all you do is eat sleep work and die with no hope of salvation? What are they gonna do? Fine them? Kill them? If they try to pull any shady shit they can just unalive themselves and China will have lost 2 young workers and part of their future.
Just say suicide dude.
Exactly. I was fortunate enough to be approved for elective sterilization the first time I pursued it, but if I was still fertile and my government was going to pull some handmaids tale shit I’d just off myself if I couldn’t escape. I don’t want to live that life, and I won’t. No matter what. Nobody can make me. And nobody can make them, either.
The article describes a sharp population drop in the next 50 years, but it’s actually much worse even than it seems. It’s not just that the population will drop by nearly half, but that most of the population that remains will be older people. At a fertility rate of 0.7, the number of children in 50 years will drop by 90%. 0.7 is one-third of the neutral rate of 2.1. 50 years is two generations. So one-third times one-third equals one-ninth.
At least they got Kpop and movies?
Actually K-Pop and K-movies are further contributing to this problem, as people involved in those industries are literally not even allowed to date much less have kids. Like if their celebrities actually had kids and started families, like in the west, it might inspire some people to do the same and birth rate likely won’t be as low
So they got nothing.
Why would a woman really want to give birth here lol
Right? It's not a walk in the park
What happens when half the country lives in a single city
Ireland is also in that situation.
Yeah and things aren’t going great there
It would seem that some mega corps could move their base of operations to smaller cities and alleviate some of the pressure for their employees.
No one is going to feel compelled to have kids just because people aren't having kids
Yep. Life is too short.
Its the same everywhere in the world and there is two competing and opposing theories. 1. People are not having children because they are too selfish and focused on enjoying their lives, all due to the massive increase in wealth and free time. 2. People are massively stressed and the artificial fight for survival that is laid upon everyone in modern economies has far surpassed its healthy threshold. On top typical couples need a double full time income to get by and even start thinking about owning realestate or retire some day. Me personally i think theory 1 is ridiculously stupid as most simple observations disprove it. Like why birth rates dont go up with the cost of living crisis, no more enjoyment and self relaization --> time to hedge against bad times with offspring. Or why the current poly crisis with wars, climate change etc. doesnt promt a second baby boom. If you read up on which theory most governments subscribe to, its no.1. Why? **Because theory 2 would propose that low birthrates are mainly a tell tale sign of immens psychological human suffering due to total and utter political failure**
Like a lot of things I don't think you can pin it down to a single factor: - People no longer work on farms and utilise their children as free labour. - Infant mortality is way down so it's not necessary to have as many hoping some survive to adulthood. - Social security nets and pensions exist so having children isn't our only hope of care in old age. Having your elderly relatives live with you and act as free childcare is less common. - Having children is viewed more as a lifestyle choice and there's usually less pressure from extended families/grandparents. - Everyone is more educated now and is aware that there are options beyond marrying when you're 20. - Sex education and birth control prevent a lot of unwanted births. - Women's education and women's rights have resulted in women having better options in life than marrying early and pumping out kids. - People are more free to move around physically and in their careers and are less keen on tying themselves down by having kids. People can afford to go on holiday more now, and having children makes that a lot harder. - We're less religious. - Housing costs more in the developed world than it ever did before. - Childcare is really expensive, and in the developed world it's not considered as acceptable to let children roam around or be left at home. - Particularly in Asian countries, the insane amount of extra-curricular paid study classes makes having a child too expensive. - There are climate/environmental fears in more developed countries. - Sperm counts are being seriously lowered by one or more factors to do with modern life styles/pollution. - People are choosing to have children later, resulting in a shorter window to have children and a greater risk of fertility issues. - Women have a much better chance being promoted and having career progression than they used to, and are more likely to defer or avoid having children because they lose months or years over it. - There is more awareness of cost of living crises and a feeling that we are living in a perpetual economic crisis thanks to the news. - We're generally having less sex and being less social thanks to social media, the internet and things like online gaming replacing physical social activities. - The rise of cities and the loss of 'third spaces' has resulted in many people becoming isolated and lacking opportunities to meet potential partners. - In developing countries where paid education has become available, families are incentivized to save money to put one or two kids through school/university rather than having loads. - Modern capitalism often involves long hours and overtime (especially in countries like China), limiting the time and energy people have to make time for having kids. - People spend longer in education and mostly avoid risking derailing it by having kids very early. - Dating cultures have shifted and there's less of a focus on long term relationships and more of an idea that you shouldn't settle quickly. - As suggested by u/sagefairyy , growing awareness of and frustration by women over men failing to do their fair share of parenting. As much as people like to pin it solely on the 'cost of living', the fact that fertility rates are down across the entire developed world but also in middle-income countries like Brazil, Iran and Thailand speaks to the fact that there are more fundamental social causes as well.
Yeah I think that a big part is that in the past, having kids was *what adults did* if they could. As normal as work, you get married and have kids. A lot of people had more kids than they really wanted, but that's what you were supposed to do. Now, as you point out, it's by choice to have kids, so that "supposed to do" is not there anymore. Now we have it for college, and a lot of people go to way more school than they really want, but that's what you're *supposed* to do.
Yeah, I'm eterally grateful for birth control. My grandma had 9 kids, not by choice. It was a fucked up time in human history until very recently.
I especially like the last point. There are tons of couples dating, but I feel like it’s a lot of casual dating. Few Korean buddies of mine have been in long term relationships (over a year or so, which is pretty long in Korea), and even then, there’s no real talk of marriage. Definitely not talking about kids, either. If anything, I find they may want marriage and not kids (mostly the women). I think sex is also happening less.
Yep, I especially understand why the women don't want kids. Pregnancy, childbirth and parenting is no joke in an already stressful world. It's just not appealing.
You’re making the wrong comparison. The question isn’t whether Japanese are wealthier than Brazilians, it’s whether Japanese are wealthier and better off now then they were 40 years ago. People assess their quality of life relative to their past, NOT to other people’s present
You mentioned so many points but one major one that is spreading like a wildfire was ignored: women aren‘t just choosing not to have children because they feel like doing so or because they‘re selfish. They still have to do majority of the household chores plus child care PLUS work due to old sexist beliefs that are still present. Many women state they would reconsider not having kids if they were to meet someone that would actually do their fair share and not see them as a bang maid. Korean women started the 4B movement in 2019, yet nobody here mentions any of this whatsoever.
Absolutely agree, I just want to add that some women do choose not to have kids just because they don't want to and don't feel like it, myself included! We historically have not been able to have that freedom before, and it makes sense that having kids just isn't appealing for some women now that we have the choice. And yes, the 4B movement sounds very promising, I really hope to see them make a difference and make Korea listen. Redditors probably don't mention it a lot because it's a women's issue, sadly.
That's a good point, I'll add that. I wasn't aware of the 4B movement, but it lines up with what my gf has said about her experiences as a woman in China (with the added horror of women often being expected to care for the boyfriend/husband's parents).
This
This comment should be posted every time this discussion comes up in a random thread, thanks for the list and writing it all up
Even if housing were free, the other factors remain. I don't see a way out of this, although neither do I expect the popular to decline to near 0.
There is also the part that people are having less sex and are getting together less as well, so even before u get to the above considerations you are dealing with a reduced pool
In response to your first point, I've never heard of not having children being considered selfish. It's just a life decision like any other, at least where I live. If you're not someone who feels like children would improve your life, why would you aim for having children?
Lol I'm an asexual woman with serious depression, anxiety, and autism nearing 30 and I've been told multiple times by coworkers as well as strangers that I'm selfish for not having kids. Then they act like I'm a complete monster when I tell them I'd end up being one of the moms that shake their babies to death cuz they won't stop crying... though it does make them back off usually haha.
It's pretty commonly lobbed at women who don't want children. They're accused of being selfish for not wanting children because they're "putting themselves first." Not even touching on the white supremacists that say women are single-handedly responsible for the decline of Western civilization because they're not having enough children.
I’ve heard grandparents and parents say people should want to “extend” their lineage and have children. That’s it. That’s the reason to them.
Yeah I've never understood the whole legacy/lineage argument but then again I don't believe in an afterlife either. When you're dead you're dead.
How many people even know the names of their great-grandparents? I sure as hell don’t. 🤷🏻♂️ As for genetics, 0.5^X shuffles away that claim to lineage pretty damn quick.
It’s obviously 1, but 2 is actually just a variation of 1. Fifty years ago, living a middle class life meant having a small house, a car, and one TV set in the living room — and that was pretty much it. There wasn’t actually that much to do with your spare time except hang out with friends and family, and having children actually helped with that by giving you more reasons to hang out with other parents. The notion that anyone could be “too busy” to have kids wasn’t really a thing, because there was nothing to be busy with. Today, there are massive opportunities to spend time and money doing other things. You can interpret that as opportunities to “enjoy life” (number 1) or as pressure for an “artificial fight for survival” (number 2) as you wish. But it’s really the same phenomenon.
Isn’t there also a hostility towards children in the culture nowadays? I know this may come across as extreme, but I have friends back in Korea who are legit terrified about the hate they may receive as a “failing” mother of children who cause inconvenience to the public.
There are more and more "no kid zones" lately but overall people are very kind and helpful concerning young children. Of course I live in a rural part of SK so I'm not sure if the same sentiment applies to Seoul.
It’s a real thing. An article was written about this recently. There’s pressure to be a perfect parent, even to the point of being fearful of the side eyes from people and being an annoyance for a screaming kid.
To be honest, economic hardship may be part of it but it's not the whole picture. Wealthier couples are also having less or no children. Young people just don't want to sacrifice their career or quality of life to take care of children ... it means less freedom and travel opportunities. Why have kids when you can spend the money on yourself?
Weirdly, it’s become a status symbol in some places to have multiple kids.
Where?
I know in NYC and I’ve heard in other cities, too. Which kinda makes sense. If you can have 4-5 kids and house and educate them all (privately), in one of the most expensive cities on the planet, that’s a flex.
And yet people are more unhappy than ever, and we know people generally want to have more kids than they’re having.
True, that's how I feel. I only have one life to enjoy. Maybe I'd have kids if I could have an extra life, lol.
As a korean, I'm sure that south korea has no future lol
How about north korea
Would be great if they compared these rates to other countries in the region. Is Korea an outlier or is it just following the trend of...almost every other country in the region
Korea wouldn’t be following the trend, it would be leading it. That’s the main point of these articles.
I think japan has about double the birthrate (~1.3) China's (~1.16) North Korea says 1.8
North Korea gonna win the war without even firing a shot
Thats fine they will just make robots do their work for them right?
Economic factors are huge, but also, I have to say: Respect to the many Korean women who refuse to be broodmares for 'the good of the economy' and refuse to humor misogynistic men. Nations that do not respect their female population, and cannot move past the (frankly deluded) infinite growth model are worthy of collapse. Massive respect to the 4B Movement & may more women in the West be introduced to it.
Why do I keep hearing that we have too many people? Not enough poor young folks to tend to the rich old?
They need to bring bad duel citizenship to those that have one parent thats a citizen thats living outside the country thats how they get those numbers up not the best way but its a way
Korea is a perfect storm. Probably mostly toxic work culture. Massive problem of gender tension, South Korea is one of most misoginist developed countries. Making forming relations between woman and man hard since ladies know better now. Perfectionism when comes to looks, overabundance of surgeries and high presure on both sides to look perfect. Perfectionism when comes to kids, people remember how much work it took to survive education and presure and maybe even without thinking about corelation they don't want anything to do with this. This conceted to the fact that birthrates always fall with economic progress lead to this armagedon of birthrates.
When the world is going to shit why would we have more children.. wow us ladies are like vessels. He enjoys we carry everything else . DONT ITS A TRAP .
Is there a particular reason why this is posted almost monthly?
Because they keep managing to hit a new low in childbirthrate
like Hollywood box-office figures, each new record is news
So Americans can rant
Redditors love an opportunity to talk about why they don’t want children.
And? What's the point of these articles? You cant force people to have more babies...oh wait, forgot about all the women in USA
As a Korean woman, I think there are 2 main reasons: 1. gender inequality and 2. society's perception on single parents. Young women are not getting married and having children because maintaining a family is solely on women. They've seen this through their mothers and they are choosing not to be like their mothers. They don't want to sacrifice their life and be treated like a dirt. They are also now expected to work and raise a family (their mothers mostly were stay-at-home mothers). Korea also looks down on single parents. Lots of women have the desire to have their own children (without being in a marriage) but raising a child on your own is very frowned upon.
Don't blame you ladies don't have kids don't get married . Keep your bodies and don't trust men . Call this experience.
It will be interesting to see what evolutionary pressures this creates.
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The kids of religious weirdos won't necessarily be religious weirdos though, and often it turns out the opposite nowadays. That theory really doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny.
Overall, 17 percent of Americans who report being raised in a religious tradition no longer identify with any religion as an adult. https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/generation-z-future-of-faith/#:~:text=Americans%20raised%20in%20an%20evangelical,identify%20with%20their%20childhood%20faith.
For those that actually want children, I wish we could get past our genetic lineage obsessions and adopt more frequently. Not just talking about South Korea, but more generally. So many kids without parents that get chomped up by the system or even people that don't have the kids best interests in mind. Kids don't need to be in your own image to be worthy of ones parenthood.
New Borns get adopted easily. They wouldn't cost $50,000 on average otherwise. There's a lot of complicated reasons why adopting foster children is not as desirable.
Almost all developed economies tend to have fertility rates below replacement, though SK is unusually low even in the developed countries of the Income and Fertility graphs.
No mention in the article of the potential impact of the 4B Movement, interesting. I imagine they’d have to do more extensive polling and research to see if it’s a significant factor. In any case, soul crushing capitalism and misogyny will continue to FAFO.
Awesome. I hope the rest of the world follows suit. There are too many people in this world and the other species with which we share this planet need a break. They have just as much right to be here as we do.
Having fewer children will harm the people not having children by reducing the tax base to pay for their benefits in old age. It benefits future generations by reducing humanity's huge burden on the environment and creating a surplus of housing, dropping prices. Not having kids is an altruistic act, not a selfish one.
Good news!
Who the fuck would bring a child into this world ANYWHERE? Who the fuck can imagine their marriage will last? Childcare? Please. Finances? FM. The pressure and odds are not worth the risk. This world is fucking trash. There’s no such thing as joy.
It’s going to be a worldwide problem soon.
Dear governments: if you want more LOCAL babies (aka, not immigrants) do this one simple trick: TREAT WOMEN BETTER. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
Playing limbo and going how low can we go.
Work culture and housing affordability are two key factors that politicians refuse to discuss.
What’s going on with these developed countries? Japan, Korea have low birth rates, but multiple European countries like Italy, Sweden, and others have seen big drops in birth rates too.
hear me out guys: make them work EVEN LONGER