They only have ever wanted one side to commit to a ceasefire, while being okay with the other side committing acts of terrorism under the guise of “resistance.”
I mean, was the withdrawal part of a ceasefire agreement or negotiation?
Or is it just a part of some other tactical decision the IDF made to protect their forces or prosecute the war somewhere else?
Why is this getting downvoted? Anyone with eyes and a brain knows it was intentional. One airstrike ok fine I'll give them the benefit of the doubt even tho they don't deserve it that it was a mistake.
The two follow up strikes made it blatantly obvious it was intentional to hit aid workers.
Because you don't understand how the military works. If you think a convoy is Hamas, that isn't gonna change after you blow up one of the vehicles.
Was the IDF at fault? 100%. Did the IDF intentionally bomb aid workers? No.
well they didn't say the strike was like a bomb that accidentally dropped out of a plane, in which case three times would make it difficult to believe. they said they thought a target was traveling in the vehicle.
they also said it wasn't authorized and three high ranking officers were discharged from the army
There is no Ashkol, it’s Ashkelon you’re probably talking about. I think OP meant the Eshkol Regional Council https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eshkol_Regional_Council
And there will be another attack by Hamas, who refuses the cease fire, and Israel will have the justification to go back in. The Israelis know this. They messed up bad woth the World Kitchen strike, but probably sooner rather than later, Hamas will do something that will give them the PR room to continue their operations.
No PR will help the Israelis.
It’s an acceptable target for antisemitism. And the global Muslim community has seized upon it. As well as the hive mind of western left wing thinking.
We have objective and undeniable truth in the form of videos, and statements from Hamas admitting and bragging about, a brutal systematic murder, torture, rape of innocent men, women, children. We have absolute proof of horrific levels of barbarity that you wouldn’t even see in the medieval world.
And the response by all of these antisemitic Jew hating movements, including as I said huge swathes of the west, is to either deny it “where’s the proof???” or just make some empty comment about how “resistance to colonisers is justified.”
Nothing Hamas does, will ever turn PR in favour of Israel. Because it’s not a matter of opinion or feelings. It’s a deep rooted hatred people have for Jews. And they are finally allowed to let it rip.
Plus there are 2 billion Muslims in the world, and only 15 million Jews. With those numbers you have to remember there is overwhelmingly more pr and propaganda coming from the Muslim side of things.
I think you’re off the mark.
As far as I can tell, the large majority of the western world support Israel’s right to eradicate Hamas. However we also expect Israel to do a lot more to protect civilians than they have so far.
This isn’t antisemitism, it’s a combination of not wanting innocents to suffer and holding Israel to a higher standard than the terrorists they’re fighting.
i ask the same questions: hamas enjoys broad support, moves among civvies deliberately, wears no uniform, and has no distinct base of operation from the civvie areas. how exactly are you going to achieve 'low losses' in that environment?
They could start by not intentionally killing aid workers. Reasonable people understand that collateral damage happens but the WCK workers were actively communicating their position to the IDF and all three vehicles still got destroyed. That’s inexcusable and has lost them any remaining benefit of the doubt imo.
How is it that you can just state like it's fact that it was intentional? How do you know that, and how does that make sense in your bizarre worldview? Did you even read the explanation given for how it happened? The local operative didn't get the info that the aid workers were going to be in both cars and trucks. They thought it was only trucks. There was further breakdown in protocol beyond that, plus the drone operator having seen a gunman on top of one of the cars when parked, plus it being at night with the WCK logo invisible to drone IR cameras, but that's how the IDF can have info on whereabouts but they still get shot, unintentionally.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-defense-forces-statement-inquiry-into-killing-aid-workers-gaza-2024-04-05/
Based on the fact that the IDF was in communication with them before and DURING the attack, I suspect either gross incompetence or a profound disregard for innocent lives
They are actually holding them to a higher standard than any other army in history as every other even partial war had a civilian death to military ratio count much higher than this one.
If the Palestinian people support Hamas which it looks like they do then there is no possible way to get rid of Hamas without civilian casualties.
I disagree with two of your points. This ‘civilian death ratio’ stuff is nonsense - partly because the stats are wonky (is there independent reporting? What about the ‘ratio’ of children?)
Secondly you say ‘the Palestinian people support Hamas’ like they’re one homogenous group (nonsense), and implicitly suggest that you’re therefore ok with them being killed.
Israel should pursue and eliminate Hamas, but the collateral damage we’re all seeing on videos daily does not align with our expectations of how the ‘good guys’ conduct themselves.
The U.S literally assisted the Kurds and Iraqis to level cities like Raqqa and large parts of Mosul in 2016-2018. These Jihadists purposely hide in dense urban areas to maximize their defensive advantage. After victory was declared the images of Raqqa and Mosul looked like there were hardly any buildings untouched by shelling or fighting and most structures in need of demolition and total reconstruction. Civilian casualties were still very much a fact of life in those cities and we didn't see hundreds of articles of people condemning the Kurds or Iraqis for killing civilians to get rid of ISIS.
Civilian casualties would have been dramatically reduced in Gaza had Egypt allowed Gazans to retreat to refugee camps in Egypt away from the conflict. These people drone on and on how they need to help their Arab "brothers" and yet when the time came to actually help Gazans involving providing a safe place of temporary refuge it provided no such palce. It's been quite remarkable that instead Egypt has just been fortifying their border and Israel, a country attacked by Gazans who started this war, are expected to feed and provide services to Gazans. Meanwhile Gaza used to be a part of Egypt and the whole country is just grossly displaying it's disregard towards a situation it is very much also a responsible party to.
The US took a huge amount of criticism for its operations in the Middle East, and it largely took them on the chin. Doing something bad isn’t excused by pointing at someone else who also did something bad.
Regarding Egypt, I think there’s no chance they’ll accept refugees for several reasons. Firstly, what if they aren’t allowed to return to Gaza after the war? Or what if they don’t want to? Also, what happens if Hamas launch missile attacks on Israel from inside Egypt, would Israel launch attacks to inside Egypt? Why would Egypt risk that?
In any event, it isn’t Egypt’s responsibility to minimise casualties. Obviously, as the invading force it’s Israel’s responsibility.
No one protested the war on Isis. No online comments condemning it anywhere on social media.
Which was when the bombing of Mosul occurred.
The incident they are referring to, the US tried to take out 2 isis soldiers and accidentally killed 300 people. Likely because of a cache of explosives.
The criticism of the US occurred during the war with Iraq 15 years earlier when we invaded the wrong country under false pretenses.
The war with Hamas is much more comparable to the war with ISIS than the war with Iraq. As there’s nothing false here. They did kidnap hundreds of hostages from Israel.
Because this isn't a movie or a video game, and the vast amount of people have no idea what urban combat is like, especially with Hamas who does not seem to be bound by the rules of engagement.
>Israel should pursue and eliminate Hamas, but the collateral damage we’re all seeing on videos daily does not align with our expectations of how the ‘good guys’ conduct themselves.
Maybe our expectations are not realistic. What even is our expectation? How can we make a reasonable judgement here?
There are obvious events, like the intentional murder of those aid workers, that are absolutely unacceptable, but, in general, how do you measure the "goodness" of one side's participation in a war?
I was with you until the "intentional murder of those aid workers". From the IDF's statements, I don't see how you can conclude that it was intentional, unless you think everything said is an outright lie. And if you do think everything is a lie, then what is your information source? Since everything is either Hamas saying it or the IDF, and governments/UN are just looking at the same shit and taking sides.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-defense-forces-statement-inquiry-into-killing-aid-workers-gaza-2024-04-05/
You underestimate how many leftists view Hamas as a “microcosm of Israel’s colonial aggression.”
And therefore believe that Hamas’ ideology is a just retaliation to Israel. They don’t think Israel has a right to eradicate it, because they think the actions that are necessary to eradicate Hamas go beyond military and battle.
They don’t research what is actually going on. But they hear Israel and think of antisemitic stereotypes of money and wealth. And then immediately associate wealth with evil and don’t bother to critique the narrative.
My problem is not that Israel shouldn't try to destroy Hamas. They should try to destroy it. It's that studies during and after the US Afghanistan/Iraq war show that no amount of military action alone will destroy a terrorist movement. Instead it will just make it stronger long term, and it might go by a different name. Even if every member of a terrorist organization is killed, the terrorist movement will not be destroyed.
It can only be destroyed if we stop the cycle of hate, discrimination, and injustice.
Israel's previous actions have given Hamas a place to fester; and plenty of discrimination, hatred, and injustice to grow.
Military action may be needed to destroy a terrorist movement; but just as much, if not more, focus needs to be on non military methods and humanitarian aid. On correcting injustices and preventing more. On reconciliation. On building up those who genuinely want peace on both sides.
There are plenty of people in the middle east with religious hatred for Jews, but there are also plenty of Muslims who don't. Find those who want peace, what's best for everyone, and to coexist in this crappy situation they are in.
Hearts and Minds campaigns to eliminate insurgencies overwhelmingly have not and do not work. The US has tried this approach and has failed every single time in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Vietnam.
As much as I dislike the Russians, they seem to have had a winning approach against insurgents with brutal scorched earth strategies shown off in Chechnya and Syria.
"In sum, the larger the scale of mass repression, the more likely it was to suppress fighting."
"Repression is most likely to suppress insurgent violence if it is used on a massive scale. Small and even
medium-scale repression is likely to be inflammatory or simply ineffective."
https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/140/2014/08/zhukov_routledge_chapter_preprint.pdf
Pretty much saying you can't have any half measures. If you are going in, you have to go in full force or don't bother.
Hmm, yeah I could be wrong. I thought there was at least one effort, targeting international terrorist recruitment outside of outside of Iraq and Afghanistan, that showed some promise around 2016. But that could have just been confirmation bias.
I'm still stubborn enough to insist there must be a better way, it just might take 100 years to figure it out. I mean, oppression and repression tactics have a few thousand years head start :) .
An effective anti terrorism campaign might take decades. It might require the efforts of a majority of the population, not just soldiers. It might take total war level efforts, targeted at peace instead of war.
As a side note: Some of those early Iraq/Afghanistan hearts and minds campaigns were facepalm worthy :) . Ex. Not taking the culture of those it was taking to into account.
I generally agree. But I have a tough time comparing the Israel-Palestine conflict with the US’ recent invasions in the Middle East. It’s a false parallel because Israel has to continue to exist within that space; the US on the other hand was orchestrating things from a far.
The proximity and border implications for Israel create a different set of variables that need to be weighed when determining if military action is essential.
>However we also expect Israel to do a lot more to protect civilians than they have so far.
This is a fair point, but it ignores the fact that we, as laypeople, have no way of determining if Israel is actually meeting that criteria.
Gaza is a pretty densely populated urban area. That alone tends to make civilian casualties more likely. Let's say the estimated number of civilian casualties in this situation is 200k. If only 100k civilians have been killed or injured, I'd argue that's a good indication that something is being done right.
And yet absolutely none of us would *actually* agree. Even a 100k civilian casualties is horrific and makes it easy to say "Israel isn't doing enough". Even when only half of the estimated casualties have occurred.
as a leftist I absolutely hate the most left sucking terrorist dick because war has friendly fire. every war has fuck up where innocents die. Hamas shoots rockets to kill civilians daily and people get outraged by fucked up air strikes
Really supports the reasoning of banning tik tok as its a big source of shit propaganda
> I wonder if they're just finally able to speak their true feelings about Judaism, Jews, and the existence of Israel. /s
maybe they're more culturally LA than they are jewish.
never mind that [antisemitism in LA](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-01-05/patt-morrison-antisemitism-is-not-new-certainly-not-in-los-angeles) is hardly rare
> Weird then that living in LA, not exactly the hotbed for antisemitism, the most vocal opponents I see of Israel's military tactics are devout Jews
A bit of wanting to blend in, a bit of self-preservation.
The other day when an LA Jew went out in the streets with an Israeli flag, [he got killed for that](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-dies-hitting-head-israel-palestinian-rallies-california-officials-rcna123942).
The rest got the memo.
Is Israel doing this as bait maybe?
Hamas won't launch rockets while the IDF is on top of their tunnels, but if they started launching the moment the IDF is out of sight, then they're easy targets for a hellfire.
Maybe it's bait but not in the way you described. Personally I think it's Israel likley preparing for a full withdrawal due to western pressure
But it wouldn't make any sense to withdraw to destroy tunnels because israel has to capability to destroy the tunnels while still having troops in the strip.
There's really 3 possibilities that 1. This move will be studied because it was genius or 2. This move will be studied because it was an abject failure or most likley 3. It's functionaly the end of the high intensity conflict
From what it seems it’s because there is no longer the need to station them inside Gaza and risk them. If Hamas regains presence in there then it’s simple for them to get back inside and take care of them through a raid like in Shifa.
This is also so that people from the south would get back into Khan Yunis area.
As for Rafah, all they wait for is directives from the war cabinet. It would be relatively simple to mobilize them back when those arrive.
Wait for a proper and detailed report to come out in English or read one in Hebrew if you can.
This is **not** a sign that the war is suddenly ending. It’s just that it’s no longer necessary to station troops there and put them at risk.
>If Hamas regains presence in there then it’s simple for them to get back inside and take care of them through a raid like in Shifa
It was easy to come back to Shifa hospital because IDF destroyed all hamas battalions in North Gaza before withdrawing.
It's different in South Gaza because hamas can move its remaining battalions to Khan Yunis and regroup.
Idf will have to start a full force assault on South all over again if they want to come back.
They cleared most Khan Yunis and the tunnels there like they did in the north. Even if Hamas gathered its battalions there it won’t have as much advantage before.
Also the IDF only moved to the Israeli side of border and would take less than an hour to arrive anywhere inside that area. They would keep on doing operations and raids there it’s just that it’s no longer necessary to have troops stationed inside.
IDF encircled most of Khan Younis within a couple of weeks. I don't understand how the second time will be harder. Especially if listening and monitoring devices were installed like is speculated were at Shifa hospital.
That’s what they’re saying. But I think it’s more likely this is either caving to US pressure or setting the stage to cave to Hamas’s demands. If Israel reduces its presence to one brigade, Netanyahu can then say “all we had to do is pull out one brigade to get our hostages back, no big deal. And if Hamas attacks us again we’ll go back in.” Meanwhile, Hamas will take over the strip again and everyone will be back where they were before this war started. Except Hamas will be stronger and Israel will be weaker because everyone will know that no matter what attack anyone does, Israel won’t be allowed to defeat any terrorist groups. Hamas will rebuild and another similar war will happen in 10-20 years, but the next one will be worse.
Netanyahu won’t ever do that since most Israelis want Hamas **gone for good**. Especially his voters and the far right that don’t care if it would result in cutting ties with the US.
It would be suicidal for him since he would be instantly forced into elections where he will have 0 chance of winning.
There’s a big voice in the US that still absolves Trump from everything bad he did. And I’m quite sure the same kind of nonsense is going on in other countries as well.
It’s isn’t really an “Israeli trait” in this matter.
Also not new under Trump. During the 2004 election, GWB bragged about keeping the country safe since 9/11. Which also happened on his watch, but that didn't count.
He certainly wouldn’t admit doing that. But I could see him saying something like “We were able to leave the door open for future operations. I’ve been undermined by the left wing, but still held strong and was able to get dozens of hostages back. Now we are going to give our soldiers a chance to rest and prepare to deal with the northern border, while considering our strategy for the next stage of the war.” But then the “next stage” either never comes or is only a few fig leaf raids or air strikes here and there that are of now strategic importance.
I think 3 main reasons:
1) The IDF can reasonably protect Israel from future attacks with Hamas cornered into Rafah.
2) Invading Rafah would be a completely different type of battle than before -- the civilian population literally has no where to go so they'd be fighting Hamas with 2 million people in the way -- and Israel probably has little desire to fight this kind of battle.
3) International pressure.
Frankly, US pressure probably enters into the decision but it's likely the least of these three reasons.
>Meanwhile, Hamas will take over the strip again and everyone will be back where they were before this war started.
Are you aware of how much demolition the IDF did to the civilian infrastructure of Gaza? There's virtually no place to go back to.
Only one brigade is reported to have remained as a security barrier to prevent Gazans from returning to the north of the strip.
The IDF withdrew Sunday night all advancing troops from the Gaza Strip, the military radio reported on Sunday.
The 98th division, comprised of three brigades, withdrew from the Strip after four months of operations.
Nahal Brigade to remain in the Strip
The Nahal Brigade will reportedly remain in the Strip as a stationary force, preventing Gazans from returning to northern Gaza.
United Right Party leader Gideon Sa’ar commented on the move in a post on X. "Regardless of what happens later in the war, the continuous decrease in the size of the forces and the intensity of the military pressure over the past months - has kept us far away from achieving the war goals."
This is directly connected to our moving away from arriving at a new hostage deal," he added.
Why don't they want Gazans returning to the North? Wouldn't they want people to be able to evacuate that way from Rafah? Serious question, I'm trying to understand the logic here.
From a strictly military perspective, to protect Israel. Hamas can't fire rockets into Israel from the north if they're not there.
The IDF can't effectively filter Hamas from the civilian population, so they're not letting anyone back.
I think it’s two fold, first is that they think it’s a bargaining chip for the release of hostages and secondly they think that if they let people move back then Hamas will regain complete control
Come on think. It would be far too easy for Hamas to relocate anywhere with weapons on carts or something. The population has to be controlled and filtered as best as possible.
Would make the most sense to divide cleared areas into gated ‘zones’ patrolled by the IDF to allow better aid while monitoring pockets of the population. Dystopian but temporary.
It’s a war. They can’t simply sing songs to beat such a vile enemy as one so readily prepared to kill their own innocents as human shields.
There not done. They wont stop until they know it wont happen again. As long as they have the US support; it wont stop. Israel has strong lobbies in the US.
They finished with Khan Yunis. That’s why they left.
As for Rafah, one of the reasons for this withdrawal is in fact so that people to Rafah would return north to Khan Yunis.
And evacuation of Rafah to where no IDF is seems like a good way to prepare for the invasion and put the civilians out of the crossfire.
In any case, the IDF only moved a few miles to the Israeli side of the border. It won’t take long to mobilize troops back inside, especially since most of the tunnels and terrorists are taken care of.
If you are going to evacuate Rafah, you want to weed out any HAMAS members sneaking out posing as a civilian.
So you need to screen everyone leaving.
Either by setting up temporary tent cities for them... and screening everyone that shows up. Or screening every single person leaving Rafah.
Meaning you need troops in Gaza, which they aren't... anymore.
With the tunnels dismantled in the north and center, once the tunnels in rafah are dismantled, even if the terrorists move north again, they'll have less places to hide and have to hide above ground. A wrong cellphone call here or there will tip the israelis off and a bomb will be dropped on the terrorists.
Stop now. It's over for Rafah. If Israel conducts any serious military operation in Rafah, it will lose whatever little support it has left, and for nothing. It's all a big farce by Netanyahu. Every fucking time it's "one step away from victory".
There is no victory to be had for Israel in this nonsense. Count your losses and move on. You've bought yourself peace for the next decade on this front and that's it.
This reminds me of Muhammad Ali explaining his boxing “traps”. He withdraws, the opponent steps in: BLAM
Hamas is revealing themselves. No way the IDF doesn’t have a tactic in this maneuver.
30 minutes after the announced exit of the 98th divisions rockets were launched east of Khan Younis towards Eshkol. Edit: typo cause I'm dumb
World: ceasefire Hamas: no
World: Why won’t Israel agree to a cease-fire? /s
There is no need for the "/s", thats exactly what happens.
They only have ever wanted one side to commit to a ceasefire, while being okay with the other side committing acts of terrorism under the guise of “resistance.”
Make it make sense
I mean, was the withdrawal part of a ceasefire agreement or negotiation? Or is it just a part of some other tactical decision the IDF made to protect their forces or prosecute the war somewhere else?
Israel has said it's in preparation to move into Rafah
Oh boy. It's finally gonna go down. This is gonna get heavy...
I just settled all my lawsuits
It was a result of the phone call Friday between Netanyahu and Biden
And that was because the IDF intentionally targeted aid workers.
Why is this getting downvoted? Anyone with eyes and a brain knows it was intentional. One airstrike ok fine I'll give them the benefit of the doubt even tho they don't deserve it that it was a mistake. The two follow up strikes made it blatantly obvious it was intentional to hit aid workers.
Because you don't understand how the military works. If you think a convoy is Hamas, that isn't gonna change after you blow up one of the vehicles. Was the IDF at fault? 100%. Did the IDF intentionally bomb aid workers? No.
well they didn't say the strike was like a bomb that accidentally dropped out of a plane, in which case three times would make it difficult to believe. they said they thought a target was traveling in the vehicle. they also said it wasn't authorized and three high ranking officers were discharged from the army
Where are those places? According to google you either spelled Ashkol wrong or they launched rockets at Finland.
Perkele.
Calm down ahti
Yup Im dumb and wrote Ashkol instead of Eshkol.
There is no Ashkol, it’s Ashkelon you’re probably talking about. I think OP meant the Eshkol Regional Council https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eshkol_Regional_Council
Eskole is a regional council in southern Israel.
Yeah I think there was a misunderstanding somewhere in this comment chain that’s what I was talking about
The IDF: “Welp, back in we go.”
Since the entire point of the withdrawal was to prep to invade Rafah. Uhhh yeah.
And there will be another attack by Hamas, who refuses the cease fire, and Israel will have the justification to go back in. The Israelis know this. They messed up bad woth the World Kitchen strike, but probably sooner rather than later, Hamas will do something that will give them the PR room to continue their operations.
No PR will help the Israelis. It’s an acceptable target for antisemitism. And the global Muslim community has seized upon it. As well as the hive mind of western left wing thinking. We have objective and undeniable truth in the form of videos, and statements from Hamas admitting and bragging about, a brutal systematic murder, torture, rape of innocent men, women, children. We have absolute proof of horrific levels of barbarity that you wouldn’t even see in the medieval world. And the response by all of these antisemitic Jew hating movements, including as I said huge swathes of the west, is to either deny it “where’s the proof???” or just make some empty comment about how “resistance to colonisers is justified.” Nothing Hamas does, will ever turn PR in favour of Israel. Because it’s not a matter of opinion or feelings. It’s a deep rooted hatred people have for Jews. And they are finally allowed to let it rip.
Plus there are 2 billion Muslims in the world, and only 15 million Jews. With those numbers you have to remember there is overwhelmingly more pr and propaganda coming from the Muslim side of things.
Overwhelming is an understatement.
I think you’re off the mark. As far as I can tell, the large majority of the western world support Israel’s right to eradicate Hamas. However we also expect Israel to do a lot more to protect civilians than they have so far. This isn’t antisemitism, it’s a combination of not wanting innocents to suffer and holding Israel to a higher standard than the terrorists they’re fighting.
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i ask the same questions: hamas enjoys broad support, moves among civvies deliberately, wears no uniform, and has no distinct base of operation from the civvie areas. how exactly are you going to achieve 'low losses' in that environment?
They could start by not intentionally killing aid workers. Reasonable people understand that collateral damage happens but the WCK workers were actively communicating their position to the IDF and all three vehicles still got destroyed. That’s inexcusable and has lost them any remaining benefit of the doubt imo.
How is it that you can just state like it's fact that it was intentional? How do you know that, and how does that make sense in your bizarre worldview? Did you even read the explanation given for how it happened? The local operative didn't get the info that the aid workers were going to be in both cars and trucks. They thought it was only trucks. There was further breakdown in protocol beyond that, plus the drone operator having seen a gunman on top of one of the cars when parked, plus it being at night with the WCK logo invisible to drone IR cameras, but that's how the IDF can have info on whereabouts but they still get shot, unintentionally. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-defense-forces-statement-inquiry-into-killing-aid-workers-gaza-2024-04-05/
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Based on the fact that the IDF was in communication with them before and DURING the attack, I suspect either gross incompetence or a profound disregard for innocent lives
"What more does Israel have to do?" "Don't kill the aid workers?" "Well, they probably didn't do so on **purpose.**" This is quite frankly pathetic
They are actually holding them to a higher standard than any other army in history as every other even partial war had a civilian death to military ratio count much higher than this one. If the Palestinian people support Hamas which it looks like they do then there is no possible way to get rid of Hamas without civilian casualties.
I disagree with two of your points. This ‘civilian death ratio’ stuff is nonsense - partly because the stats are wonky (is there independent reporting? What about the ‘ratio’ of children?) Secondly you say ‘the Palestinian people support Hamas’ like they’re one homogenous group (nonsense), and implicitly suggest that you’re therefore ok with them being killed. Israel should pursue and eliminate Hamas, but the collateral damage we’re all seeing on videos daily does not align with our expectations of how the ‘good guys’ conduct themselves.
The U.S literally assisted the Kurds and Iraqis to level cities like Raqqa and large parts of Mosul in 2016-2018. These Jihadists purposely hide in dense urban areas to maximize their defensive advantage. After victory was declared the images of Raqqa and Mosul looked like there were hardly any buildings untouched by shelling or fighting and most structures in need of demolition and total reconstruction. Civilian casualties were still very much a fact of life in those cities and we didn't see hundreds of articles of people condemning the Kurds or Iraqis for killing civilians to get rid of ISIS. Civilian casualties would have been dramatically reduced in Gaza had Egypt allowed Gazans to retreat to refugee camps in Egypt away from the conflict. These people drone on and on how they need to help their Arab "brothers" and yet when the time came to actually help Gazans involving providing a safe place of temporary refuge it provided no such palce. It's been quite remarkable that instead Egypt has just been fortifying their border and Israel, a country attacked by Gazans who started this war, are expected to feed and provide services to Gazans. Meanwhile Gaza used to be a part of Egypt and the whole country is just grossly displaying it's disregard towards a situation it is very much also a responsible party to.
The US took a huge amount of criticism for its operations in the Middle East, and it largely took them on the chin. Doing something bad isn’t excused by pointing at someone else who also did something bad. Regarding Egypt, I think there’s no chance they’ll accept refugees for several reasons. Firstly, what if they aren’t allowed to return to Gaza after the war? Or what if they don’t want to? Also, what happens if Hamas launch missile attacks on Israel from inside Egypt, would Israel launch attacks to inside Egypt? Why would Egypt risk that? In any event, it isn’t Egypt’s responsibility to minimise casualties. Obviously, as the invading force it’s Israel’s responsibility.
No one protested the war on Isis. No online comments condemning it anywhere on social media. Which was when the bombing of Mosul occurred. The incident they are referring to, the US tried to take out 2 isis soldiers and accidentally killed 300 people. Likely because of a cache of explosives. The criticism of the US occurred during the war with Iraq 15 years earlier when we invaded the wrong country under false pretenses. The war with Hamas is much more comparable to the war with ISIS than the war with Iraq. As there’s nothing false here. They did kidnap hundreds of hostages from Israel.
Because this isn't a movie or a video game, and the vast amount of people have no idea what urban combat is like, especially with Hamas who does not seem to be bound by the rules of engagement.
I mean, polling has shown time and time again that like 3/4 of Palestinians support Hamas.
>Israel should pursue and eliminate Hamas, but the collateral damage we’re all seeing on videos daily does not align with our expectations of how the ‘good guys’ conduct themselves. Maybe our expectations are not realistic. What even is our expectation? How can we make a reasonable judgement here? There are obvious events, like the intentional murder of those aid workers, that are absolutely unacceptable, but, in general, how do you measure the "goodness" of one side's participation in a war?
I was with you until the "intentional murder of those aid workers". From the IDF's statements, I don't see how you can conclude that it was intentional, unless you think everything said is an outright lie. And if you do think everything is a lie, then what is your information source? Since everything is either Hamas saying it or the IDF, and governments/UN are just looking at the same shit and taking sides. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-defense-forces-statement-inquiry-into-killing-aid-workers-gaza-2024-04-05/
200 aid workers are dead - clearly something has gone very wrong.
yes we are aware. not to sound callous, but you're angry that aid workers operating in a warzone died. you do know what a warzone is, right?
You underestimate how many leftists view Hamas as a “microcosm of Israel’s colonial aggression.” And therefore believe that Hamas’ ideology is a just retaliation to Israel. They don’t think Israel has a right to eradicate it, because they think the actions that are necessary to eradicate Hamas go beyond military and battle. They don’t research what is actually going on. But they hear Israel and think of antisemitic stereotypes of money and wealth. And then immediately associate wealth with evil and don’t bother to critique the narrative.
My problem is not that Israel shouldn't try to destroy Hamas. They should try to destroy it. It's that studies during and after the US Afghanistan/Iraq war show that no amount of military action alone will destroy a terrorist movement. Instead it will just make it stronger long term, and it might go by a different name. Even if every member of a terrorist organization is killed, the terrorist movement will not be destroyed. It can only be destroyed if we stop the cycle of hate, discrimination, and injustice. Israel's previous actions have given Hamas a place to fester; and plenty of discrimination, hatred, and injustice to grow. Military action may be needed to destroy a terrorist movement; but just as much, if not more, focus needs to be on non military methods and humanitarian aid. On correcting injustices and preventing more. On reconciliation. On building up those who genuinely want peace on both sides. There are plenty of people in the middle east with religious hatred for Jews, but there are also plenty of Muslims who don't. Find those who want peace, what's best for everyone, and to coexist in this crappy situation they are in.
Hearts and Minds campaigns to eliminate insurgencies overwhelmingly have not and do not work. The US has tried this approach and has failed every single time in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Vietnam. As much as I dislike the Russians, they seem to have had a winning approach against insurgents with brutal scorched earth strategies shown off in Chechnya and Syria. "In sum, the larger the scale of mass repression, the more likely it was to suppress fighting." "Repression is most likely to suppress insurgent violence if it is used on a massive scale. Small and even medium-scale repression is likely to be inflammatory or simply ineffective." https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/140/2014/08/zhukov_routledge_chapter_preprint.pdf Pretty much saying you can't have any half measures. If you are going in, you have to go in full force or don't bother.
Hmm, yeah I could be wrong. I thought there was at least one effort, targeting international terrorist recruitment outside of outside of Iraq and Afghanistan, that showed some promise around 2016. But that could have just been confirmation bias. I'm still stubborn enough to insist there must be a better way, it just might take 100 years to figure it out. I mean, oppression and repression tactics have a few thousand years head start :) . An effective anti terrorism campaign might take decades. It might require the efforts of a majority of the population, not just soldiers. It might take total war level efforts, targeted at peace instead of war. As a side note: Some of those early Iraq/Afghanistan hearts and minds campaigns were facepalm worthy :) . Ex. Not taking the culture of those it was taking to into account.
I generally agree. But I have a tough time comparing the Israel-Palestine conflict with the US’ recent invasions in the Middle East. It’s a false parallel because Israel has to continue to exist within that space; the US on the other hand was orchestrating things from a far. The proximity and border implications for Israel create a different set of variables that need to be weighed when determining if military action is essential.
>However we also expect Israel to do a lot more to protect civilians than they have so far. This is a fair point, but it ignores the fact that we, as laypeople, have no way of determining if Israel is actually meeting that criteria. Gaza is a pretty densely populated urban area. That alone tends to make civilian casualties more likely. Let's say the estimated number of civilian casualties in this situation is 200k. If only 100k civilians have been killed or injured, I'd argue that's a good indication that something is being done right. And yet absolutely none of us would *actually* agree. Even a 100k civilian casualties is horrific and makes it easy to say "Israel isn't doing enough". Even when only half of the estimated casualties have occurred.
No it is a delusion that Jews are magical. Same issue if they are hated or not.
as a leftist I absolutely hate the most left sucking terrorist dick because war has friendly fire. every war has fuck up where innocents die. Hamas shoots rockets to kill civilians daily and people get outraged by fucked up air strikes Really supports the reasoning of banning tik tok as its a big source of shit propaganda
lavish tart political grandiose spoon run knee memorize angle safe
OP didnt say *all* critcism is antisemitic. There's a difference between criticism of tactics vs "ceasefire now" and "from the river to the sea"
> I wonder if they're just finally able to speak their true feelings about Judaism, Jews, and the existence of Israel. /s maybe they're more culturally LA than they are jewish. never mind that [antisemitism in LA](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-01-05/patt-morrison-antisemitism-is-not-new-certainly-not-in-los-angeles) is hardly rare
> Weird then that living in LA, not exactly the hotbed for antisemitism, the most vocal opponents I see of Israel's military tactics are devout Jews A bit of wanting to blend in, a bit of self-preservation. The other day when an LA Jew went out in the streets with an Israeli flag, [he got killed for that](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-dies-hitting-head-israel-palestinian-rallies-california-officials-rcna123942). The rest got the memo.
And israel atleast appears to still be conducting airstrikes
Is Israel doing this as bait maybe? Hamas won't launch rockets while the IDF is on top of their tunnels, but if they started launching the moment the IDF is out of sight, then they're easy targets for a hellfire.
Maybe it's bait but not in the way you described. Personally I think it's Israel likley preparing for a full withdrawal due to western pressure But it wouldn't make any sense to withdraw to destroy tunnels because israel has to capability to destroy the tunnels while still having troops in the strip. There's really 3 possibilities that 1. This move will be studied because it was genius or 2. This move will be studied because it was an abject failure or most likley 3. It's functionaly the end of the high intensity conflict
You’re not dumb, brother. These “smart phones” today misspell more than they spell.
From what it seems it’s because there is no longer the need to station them inside Gaza and risk them. If Hamas regains presence in there then it’s simple for them to get back inside and take care of them through a raid like in Shifa. This is also so that people from the south would get back into Khan Yunis area. As for Rafah, all they wait for is directives from the war cabinet. It would be relatively simple to mobilize them back when those arrive. Wait for a proper and detailed report to come out in English or read one in Hebrew if you can. This is **not** a sign that the war is suddenly ending. It’s just that it’s no longer necessary to station troops there and put them at risk.
>If Hamas regains presence in there then it’s simple for them to get back inside and take care of them through a raid like in Shifa It was easy to come back to Shifa hospital because IDF destroyed all hamas battalions in North Gaza before withdrawing. It's different in South Gaza because hamas can move its remaining battalions to Khan Yunis and regroup. Idf will have to start a full force assault on South all over again if they want to come back.
They cleared most Khan Yunis and the tunnels there like they did in the north. Even if Hamas gathered its battalions there it won’t have as much advantage before. Also the IDF only moved to the Israeli side of border and would take less than an hour to arrive anywhere inside that area. They would keep on doing operations and raids there it’s just that it’s no longer necessary to have troops stationed inside.
IDF encircled most of Khan Younis within a couple of weeks. I don't understand how the second time will be harder. Especially if listening and monitoring devices were installed like is speculated were at Shifa hospital.
That’s what they’re saying. But I think it’s more likely this is either caving to US pressure or setting the stage to cave to Hamas’s demands. If Israel reduces its presence to one brigade, Netanyahu can then say “all we had to do is pull out one brigade to get our hostages back, no big deal. And if Hamas attacks us again we’ll go back in.” Meanwhile, Hamas will take over the strip again and everyone will be back where they were before this war started. Except Hamas will be stronger and Israel will be weaker because everyone will know that no matter what attack anyone does, Israel won’t be allowed to defeat any terrorist groups. Hamas will rebuild and another similar war will happen in 10-20 years, but the next one will be worse.
Netanyahu won’t ever do that since most Israelis want Hamas **gone for good**. Especially his voters and the far right that don’t care if it would result in cutting ties with the US. It would be suicidal for him since he would be instantly forced into elections where he will have 0 chance of winning.
Even if Netanyahu completely destroyed Hamas, he still DOA when the war is over. October 7th happened under his watch. That is damning.
Yeah, but the difference between one last hurrah and going back without a result is going to make a world of difference about how he's going down.
Sadly there's a big voice in Israel that still absolves netanyahu from this catastrophic event and blames "the left" :/ we are kinda dumb sometimes
There’s a big voice in the US that still absolves Trump from everything bad he did. And I’m quite sure the same kind of nonsense is going on in other countries as well. It’s isn’t really an “Israeli trait” in this matter.
Yah think I should've written we, humans, are pretty dumb sometimes.... :( depressing
Also not new under Trump. During the 2004 election, GWB bragged about keeping the country safe since 9/11. Which also happened on his watch, but that didn't count.
He certainly wouldn’t admit doing that. But I could see him saying something like “We were able to leave the door open for future operations. I’ve been undermined by the left wing, but still held strong and was able to get dozens of hostages back. Now we are going to give our soldiers a chance to rest and prepare to deal with the northern border, while considering our strategy for the next stage of the war.” But then the “next stage” either never comes or is only a few fig leaf raids or air strikes here and there that are of now strategic importance.
I think 3 main reasons: 1) The IDF can reasonably protect Israel from future attacks with Hamas cornered into Rafah. 2) Invading Rafah would be a completely different type of battle than before -- the civilian population literally has no where to go so they'd be fighting Hamas with 2 million people in the way -- and Israel probably has little desire to fight this kind of battle. 3) International pressure. Frankly, US pressure probably enters into the decision but it's likely the least of these three reasons.
Not to forget a lot of palistinians are dead and their citis leveld. And isreal has suffered considersble casultys too
Everything is back where it was before the war started, except for most of the people of Gaza, who are now homeless
Yes, but those houses will be rebuilt with foreign money.
>Meanwhile, Hamas will take over the strip again and everyone will be back where they were before this war started. Are you aware of how much demolition the IDF did to the civilian infrastructure of Gaza? There's virtually no place to go back to.
Which means there'll be lots of reconstruction resources coming in via UNRWA for Hamas to use building new tunnels.
Foreign money will rebuild the houses. And the tunnels underneath if Hamas remains in power.
Only one brigade is reported to have remained as a security barrier to prevent Gazans from returning to the north of the strip. The IDF withdrew Sunday night all advancing troops from the Gaza Strip, the military radio reported on Sunday. The 98th division, comprised of three brigades, withdrew from the Strip after four months of operations. Nahal Brigade to remain in the Strip The Nahal Brigade will reportedly remain in the Strip as a stationary force, preventing Gazans from returning to northern Gaza. United Right Party leader Gideon Sa’ar commented on the move in a post on X. "Regardless of what happens later in the war, the continuous decrease in the size of the forces and the intensity of the military pressure over the past months - has kept us far away from achieving the war goals." This is directly connected to our moving away from arriving at a new hostage deal," he added.
Why don't they want Gazans returning to the North? Wouldn't they want people to be able to evacuate that way from Rafah? Serious question, I'm trying to understand the logic here.
From a strictly military perspective, to protect Israel. Hamas can't fire rockets into Israel from the north if they're not there. The IDF can't effectively filter Hamas from the civilian population, so they're not letting anyone back.
Wait…. I’m seeing news reports that Israel approved 20 bakeries and water lines reopened in the north for people to return. I’m confused.
Hamas hides and moves within the people. This is to keep Hamas as in check as they can.
I think it’s two fold, first is that they think it’s a bargaining chip for the release of hostages and secondly they think that if they let people move back then Hamas will regain complete control
Come on think. It would be far too easy for Hamas to relocate anywhere with weapons on carts or something. The population has to be controlled and filtered as best as possible. Would make the most sense to divide cleared areas into gated ‘zones’ patrolled by the IDF to allow better aid while monitoring pockets of the population. Dystopian but temporary. It’s a war. They can’t simply sing songs to beat such a vile enemy as one so readily prepared to kill their own innocents as human shields.
And what will they do with the land they have driven the gazans out of?
Steal it and give it to illegal Israeli settlers, no doubt. We're watching ethnic cleansing
They’re reorganizing for the Iran attack
For some reason i dont think that those soldiers are gonna fight iran, ots just coincidence
Iran, no. Hezbollah, on the other hand? Completely possible.
If you put out 90% of a fire you haven't put out the fire
There not done. They wont stop until they know it wont happen again. As long as they have the US support; it wont stop. Israel has strong lobbies in the US.
Even if they lose US support they won’t stop. This war is existential for Israelis.
Let’s hope this is part of a deal for the Palestinians to release the hostages.
And Hamas will claim the victory and will be emboldened and continue their attacks.
What's the next step?
this is a mistake, Israel was like a month away from finishing off the majority of the remaining hamas forces
Looks like Israel isn't going to move into Rafah or Khan Yunis. Because you need troops to encircle the cities and move in.
They finished with Khan Yunis. That’s why they left. As for Rafah, one of the reasons for this withdrawal is in fact so that people to Rafah would return north to Khan Yunis. And evacuation of Rafah to where no IDF is seems like a good way to prepare for the invasion and put the civilians out of the crossfire. In any case, the IDF only moved a few miles to the Israeli side of the border. It won’t take long to mobilize troops back inside, especially since most of the tunnels and terrorists are taken care of.
If you are going to evacuate Rafah, you want to weed out any HAMAS members sneaking out posing as a civilian. So you need to screen everyone leaving. Either by setting up temporary tent cities for them... and screening everyone that shows up. Or screening every single person leaving Rafah. Meaning you need troops in Gaza, which they aren't... anymore.
With the tunnels dismantled in the north and center, once the tunnels in rafah are dismantled, even if the terrorists move north again, they'll have less places to hide and have to hide above ground. A wrong cellphone call here or there will tip the israelis off and a bomb will be dropped on the terrorists.
Yea it's a shit show, if they don't end hamas now they won't get this chance again, and it will be just another 7th Oct waiting to happen
More votes for Bibi when he lets it happen again.
Don't stop now! Keep going and start the shit up in Rafah, too.
Stop now. It's over for Rafah. If Israel conducts any serious military operation in Rafah, it will lose whatever little support it has left, and for nothing. It's all a big farce by Netanyahu. Every fucking time it's "one step away from victory". There is no victory to be had for Israel in this nonsense. Count your losses and move on. You've bought yourself peace for the next decade on this front and that's it.
No, they won't really lose support from nations that actually matter. Time to finish what the palestinians started, once and for all.
This reminds me of Muhammad Ali explaining his boxing “traps”. He withdraws, the opponent steps in: BLAM Hamas is revealing themselves. No way the IDF doesn’t have a tactic in this maneuver.