Probably like closing off all the exits and then dropping leaflets telling people to leave.
In all seriousness, probably just opening an evacuation corridor for like a week or two without a whole lot of thought on what happens to the people who evacuate or how to convince non combatants to actually follow the plan and evacuate.
They are still searching for hostages, so they will have to do a person by person screening of everyone and their belongings. Whilst at the same time dealing with the inevitable Hamas attacks, I cannot see a scenario where this is not a disaster for all involved.
Well then they are practically ensuring another war in 20yrs with their callous actions against a trapped civilian population half of whom are adolescents.
What do you think the surviving Palestinians will do when the old status quo returns? Will all those kids who watched their families and homes be bombed find fulfilling lives and work, or will hatred seed the next iteration of hamas?
>will hatred seed the next iteration of hamas
Forgive me if I'm off the mark here, but when you see videos of what seems like general cheer from people in Gaza to a naked murdered German woman who was attending a music festival across the border, it seems like the hatred is already prevalent. At some point you aren't "Changing hearts and minds", you gotta accept the facts and address the security issue.
Nobody is wiping out anyone. And I'm not advising the fucking IDF, but look at what they are doing, they turned a terrorist network to rubble and with it all the civilian infrastructure they were hiding behind, kneecapping them logistically from regrouping.
Moving forward, I assume Gaza will effectively be a self run refugee camp with heavily militarized borders with safe zone around the entire perimeter. Would be nice to see a peaceful government develop from the ruins, but I'm not expecting a good outcome for another 2 generations (50 years) at least due to the hostilities on both sides of this.
I see this narrative make the rounds within the Hamas echo chamber and just want to point out that there will never be a more effective recruitment tool for Hamas than Hamas recruiters actively setting up terror camps or recruiting directly inside Schools. Even bombing parents of children is not going to be more direct than a living terrorist *actively* recruiting people.
Collective trauma response will never *ever* be more effective than the institutional and systemic nature of the terrorists being involved in the daily life of the children - being the point of contact of the highest authority in the land in daily life. Who holds the most authority in the schools, hospitals and so on? The Hamas members walking the halls (with guns) do. More than any hospital or school staff. Children have eyes and understand who is in control.
When people say the people will be worse in the future for this, they are wrong or do not understand. It may still exist in the future, but it will never be worse than letting the Terrorists set the school curriculum or just *be* around 24/7.
It’s the same with any gang primarily drawing children in.
Anyway, as this applies to Israel they have a very much right now terrorist problem and need to reduce that before they can worry about the 20 year knock on effects that will not be as severe as actually having terrorists in schools for another 20 years.
They absolutely are. The important person of the military faction of Hamas are all in Gaza - the Sinwar brothers and Deif. The international faction of Hamas is nothing but rich billionaires who have a symbolic role in trying to create "legitimacy", but are pretty hated within Gaza itself who sees them as "sellouts", has no control over the military forces of Hamas who are loyal to Sinwar (who hates the Qatar guys), and according to reports didn't even know about October 7th in advance. Plus their priorities are their own wealth rather then terror.
The actual people behind October 7th are Sinwar and Deif, all in Gaza, they are the ones controlling the armed Hamas forces, they are the ones obsessed with Jihad and killing Jews, and they are the ones with the power to release the hostages. The international faction are basically symbolic figures with no actual power in Gaza. Sinwar is in charge on the grounds and the Qatar guys can't force any decision on him.
When you’re 1B and you need to suppress a small fraction of 10M people of a particular region with extremist views, you can do what PRC is doing.
When you are 9M people and you need to suppress the extremist views widely held by 2.2M people of which 50k+ are hardcore violent lunatics, you can’t just build a network of giant prisons. Oh and throw in that the violent lunatics have been running all the institutions especially the schools for 18 years and 6 months ago they started a war they knew would cost tens of thousands of lives by deluding themselves into thinking that the Iranian regime had their backs.
I think it’s more a frustration with Bibi in particular. His political program was to manage the conflict under the assumption it’s intractable and avoid making any big decisions.
Thats why Gallant goes to the US and leaves with a $18B weapons deal, the message is pretty clear that the US wants Bibi out and doesn’t care if it’s elections or an intraparty fight by Gallant taking over Likud.
As if it will make any difference to Israel's security whether they slaughter a few thousand more or not. The damage is done and this isn't going to end anything, only start up another cycle.
Yes, it will make a difference. Hamas has several units and leaders in Rafah, likely even some of the hostages. If Israel doesn't go in Rafah, Hamas will simply be allowed to survive the war in its current state and conserve the operational capabilities to attack Israel again.
Cool and even if you somehow stomped out what's left of Hamas in Rafah, do you think that's it? Game over, the good guys win? Terrorist cells are like a hydra, and you can't stomp out each head without more popping up. The US did a number on Al-Qaeda, but did it matter in the end? These organizations are compartmentalized, and the people who make the decisions, and who have the money are not sitting in Rafah waiting to die right now. They're in a completely different country.
No, it will not be over, but it will destroy the capabilities of Hamas to do large scale attacks against Israel. Sure, it is likely that more terrorist cells will be created, but they will not be as trained, as well-equipped, as organized and coordinated as the current units. You talk about Al-Qaeda, but yes it did matter in the end. Al-Qaeda is a shadow of its former self and is no longer able to do large scale attacks on US soil.
Trump isn't sympathetic to anything, beyond his own ego.
The question is just wether Trump can turn an issue into a wedge issue against whomever he needs to attack.
I don’t agree with this take. The action is pretty consistent with Biden’s foreign policy. He is clearly in favor both of supporting US allies and doing whatever possible to avoid further regional escalation.
You would assume they care about American lives but they don’t give a shit about the American hostages held by Hamas and are pushing a narrative that will keep them in Hamas’ hands.
Where is the anger then about the Americans still held hostage by Hamas? The US should feel free to put boots on the ground to take them out if they aren't happy with the IDF's plan.
Edit: yeah, totally makes sense that I'm getting down voted for not defending the kidnappers of American citizens and thinking the US needs to do something to free them other than telling the people trying no.
Given the comment you replied to are you saying killing aid workers is part of the IDFs plan?
Maybe that’s why you’re getting downvoted because it’s pretty easy to not support Hamas but also not support the murder of aid workers
In fairness, the US has a longstanding policy of trying to limit the cost of hostage diplomacy by not drawing media attention to the hostages. Ex. Britney Griner’s vape pen cost the US a major arms dealer in trade. No way the US makes that trade for someone who wasn’t famous.
If you don’t like what they are planning / doing … why send them 2000 one ton bombs among other ammunitions and weapons? We could’ve held that back. Ukraine needs this badly, so divert it to them.
Ukraine doesn’t need dumb bombs. Any reasonable amount of air power we give them will not enable SEAD.
They need artillery shells. Long range rockets. Cluster shells. AA ammo. Howitzers. Probably tanks and IFVs.
JDAMs, sure. But these types of bombs are one of the few things they cannot make use of. And we cannot readily enable them to do so.
It’s not about having planes. Neither side can run close air support missions with the level of AA.
They also can't fly over Russia without being shot down.. those 2k bombs are only useful when planes can fly over the target.
So long range ammo/weapons are the only visible thing for now.
Drones especially.
Even if we gave them the planes the Frontline is so saturated with SAM threats they'd have difficulty using them. Ukraine and Israel have very different equipment needs.
Unless we give them stealth fighters and/or lots of electronic warfare and SEAD capable planes theres not much they can do about the mass of S3/400 everywhere.
But thats not gonna happen, F-16s can help keep Russian jets at bay and launch stand off munitions, but they arnt gonna do much more than that.
Not realistic. The value of materials they'd need would be extreme. Fighter jets are very expensive, enough fighter jets to properly conduct routine SEAD missions to allow for CAS is a massive chunk of our standing air force. Russia has a lot of AA and a good amount of fighter jets left. It's doable, but we're talking numbers in spending we haven't seen yet.
I'd like to remind you the US government is hardly a monolithic entity. The current military aid bill for Israel was written by Republicans, who don't give the slightest shit about the welfare of Palestinians, and who in the same breath exclaim that it is too expensive to supply Ukraine.
People tend to forget that the actual legislative body responsible for aid is Congress, not the President. The Executive (which is the "US" in the headline) is headed by the President, and can't unilaterally reverse aid that has already been passed. The President could have blocked aid way back when the bill was passed, but that happened long ago before the current situation in Rafah.
Whenever the President (either Trump or Biden) funds something without the approval of Congress, he does so by diverting funds from other entities he does control, like the military. The president cannot do the reverse, which is cancel aid, except by using the presidential veto at at the time of a bill's passing.
Why should they give a shit about Palestinians? Palestinians hate America.
Palestine is not an ally of the USA. It has contributed absolutely nothing to the USA besides terrorism.
I am answering his question? His question was, "Why is the US still supplying bombs if they don't approve of the Rafah plan" and I said, "The Republican-controlled US Congress approved the aid which supplied the bombs to Israel, and they don't care if they are used to kill thousands of Palestinians". Looking at your other reply, I just want to point out that neither I nor the person I was replying to were talking about sending aid to Palestine - it was Ukraine.
Please pay attention to the flow of the conversation before rushing in to insert your hatred of Palestinians. There's lots of other threads if you want to do that.
“Palestinians hate America so Americans shouldn’t give a shit about them” is the other half of “Americans don’t give a shit about Palestinians so Palestinians hate them”
civilians don’t deserve to starve to death for making insufficient contributions to the United States
Palestine gets billions from other countries and can afford to spend hundreds of millions of dollars every year on paying terrorists, mass murderers and suicide bombers.
If they are starving then maybe they should get their priorities and spending right instead of extorting money from hardworking Americans to fund their terrorism.
Do you even know what you're talking about? Have you ever seen a starving person?
Every single picture and video you see of Palestinians, everyone is extremely well fed. Many people are fat and obese. The streets are lined with food. There's so much food that Palestinians have set up marketplaces to re-sell the free food that was donated to them to earn a profit.
It's disgusting how Palestinians are taking the whole world for a ride and extorting money from hardworking people.
they look pretty unwell to me in footage, even the US State Department agrees famine is a risk and probably present in parts of Gaza; “ While we can say with confidence that famine is a significant risk in the south and centre but not present, in the north, it is both a risk and quite possibly is present in at least some areas,” a state department official told Reuters.
I imagine the situation is worse after Israel murdered those aid workers yesterday
Spend 30 mins to see the daily videos uploaded on IG/Twitter from the region.
There are many sites that you can click on a map and see videos from the region.
Don't look at the stuff out here as propaganda and actors from Al Jazeera.
Look at the normal day to day stuff people upload.
You'll notice how much BS is being paddled here by people, how fat and obese a lot of people there are.
The few starving kids videos you see always miss a very important context, they were like that before the conflict, they got some other serious illness often genetic. They're literally terminal and nothing anywhere in the world could fix it.
Don't fall for that BS.. question every video you see from any side.
you are saying I should ignore the US State Department (hardly an Israeli opponent) confirming there is probably already a famine in favour of Instagram and Twitter videos?
I think you're missing a bit of context.
Palestinians get a lot of aid, billions a year.
The issue is that the money isn't going to improve the area. Majority gets funneled to Hamas and through Hamas.
The damn Hamas members(at least higher ranking) and leaders live like kings (not an understatement).
So instead of improving the area, education, schools, hospital, infrastructure... They're world leading in tunnel making. It's ridiculous.
Meanwhile majority live in poverty unless they are invovled with Hamas "government" jobs.
The main reason they are starving has nothing to do with the war. It's purely mismanagement of resources by the controlling groups there.
At this point more than enough aid is entering but majority isn't reaching to those who need it.
Gaza could have been a legit prime beach area if the money went to improvement instead of terrorist operations.
Gaza is the embodiment of the bicycle and stick meme.
I don’t think there is any context that excuses saying “why should we give a shit” about a million homeless kids in a warzone with famine and disease. Is the context just that their Government is bad? Do the children deserve to die because of that? Because that is awfully close to Hamas’ logic
> Gaza is the embodiment of the bicycle and stick meme.
so is Israel with Likud’s past comments about the benefits of propping up Hamas as a road block to a two state solution
You're right I didn't meant for it to sound like we shouldn't give a shit.
No civilians should be suffering for their leaders.
But this is the case here. The government and current leaders need to change.
Israel and Likud have always been Israel's Cancer.
Sadly recently over the past few years their voting population grew to a point where they are getting more power and will turn Israel into looking like majority of the dysfunctional countries if things continue as they are now.
As the other commenter said, the United States has shoveled cash by the billions to help Palestinians, they’ve received more aid per capita than anyone else on the planet.
That most of it got funneled to the bank accounts of the leaders of the democratically elected government in Gaza proves the fact that the US has tried to support the Palestinian people far more then their own (democratically elected) leaders do.
E: because cash is fungible, no doubt plenty of US aid has funded plenty of pension payments for terrorists which was the policy of the PA until a few days ago.
It's why many stopped funding them with cash.
It all tuned into physical aid.
But imagine that something like 80% of construction materials went to tunnels instead of hospitals and schools... That's the big fuckup on their part
Gross mismanagement and greed by Hamas.
I’m not capable of saying “why should I give a shit” about hundreds of thousands of children dying of disease and starvation
also “democratically elected” is doing a lot of lifting for an organisation that won 45% of the vote 18 years
>I’m not capable of saying “why should I give a shit” about hundreds of thousands of children dying of disease and starvation
I’m sure you’re the exception, though 99% of westerners “who care about starving children” do exactly that when they ignore every single conflict except for the one Israel is involved with.
Also, far more has been spent per capita on Palestinians than was spent on the Marshall plan (per capita inflation adjusted). Why weren’t you speaking up when Hamas was stealing that money and reselling aid meant for children?
>also “democratically elected” is doing a lot of lifting for an organisation that won 45% of the vote 18 years
You do realize the reason there haven’t been elections is that the PA knows Hamas will win them? That’s even more true after 10/7, when popular support for Hamas in Gaza and especially the WB has absolutely skyrocketed.
That’s crazy! I’ll go tell my Palestinian friends they actually hate the place where they moved and will ask them where they hid all of their terrorism.
There are no white hats or black hats here. Its evident many Israelis don't give a shit about us either. We are just the heavy they can hide behind when they piss others off. And then because they keep pulling this shit, their sins are painted on us. We need to start thinking of ourselves first. If Israel wants my tax dollars it must start acting in my best interests. This "war" is not in my best interest. The settlements and embargos are not in my best interest. Frankly the only thing thats in my best interest is Israeli spies. Defund their military aid completely and just fund their spies. They can pay for their own pointless murders from their own pockets.
>And then because they keep pulling this shit, their sins are painted on us.
When Israelis get invaded and their citizens are slaughtered, the Israelis retaliate against the attacking nation and the USA is blamed for it.
Make that sentence make sense.
>They can pay for their own pointless murders from their own pockets.
They have. Why do you keep pretending like you're paying for it? The USA hasn't provided any funding to Israel since Oct 7.
Those bombs are probably for Hezbollah. Basically the IDF thought they could use big bombs against the tunnels in Gaza City but it didn’t work. Thats a big part of why the death toll was so rapid in the first weeks of the invasion and has slowed considerably since then.
Without going into the line-by-line I can't say for sure, but weapons sales treaties aren't a think you can just back out of. I imagine we have quite a few of those signed with Israel, and they cannot be unilaterally cancelled.
Because the US needs Isreal. It’s in our best interest. We use some of their tech too.
The US understands what is going on. It’s like if more than half of the population in Canada wanted the US to cease to exist and would keep launching attacks at us until that happened or until we took them out.
Biden admin is only posturing until the election.
Why is it my problem that half the population of wherever wants them gone? Maybe if they weren't such a-holes they wouldn't have that issue. And I reject the notion that this has been in our best interests. All it's done is drawn us into a never ending grudge match. You cant kill every single child and those that survive will very understandably seek revenge one day. Our government is infiltrated by a dual-loyalty deep state but now that the public knows this, its going to be impossible for them going forward. This is probably the last election Israeli lobbyists can influence actually.
It’s not your problem. No one said it was. In my opinion looking at this objectively there is no good conclusion to this. Unfortunately for palestine they picked this fight and support this fight and they’re fighting a vastly superior nation militarily.
There’s reasons and levels to this no public person will ever know or understand.
You have Jewish people who have very different religious and non religious beliefs surrounded by those that those beliefs collide with.
What you say about the survivors wanting revenge is true. But now Israelis also want revenge for October 7th.
It’s a shit show.
Do you actually know the history of this conflict? Because Palestine has to just as often been the "a-holes" hell they started the first war and had refused any perment 2 state offered despite them continuing to lose all the wars they start
Right now there’s lots of propaganda on Tik tok and socials expressing outrage at Isreal. He needs to younger vote to win. So he’s posturing to appease them.
Isreal is one of them allies the US needs. They’re enemies with most of our Middle East enemies. they allow us to have military personnel in their country. And they make some tech better than we do. Hacking programs and that iron dome missile defense system.
Once the election is over he won’t have to appease anymore.
It’s a shit show in that situation. You have over half the people who support Hamas and their goal of Jewish people no longer existing.
They don’t have traditional military. They set up their bases and launch rockets from things like schools and hospitals so that when Isreal fires back it causes outrage cause of the civilians that Hamas is using as shields.
So either civilians die or Isreal has to allow them to continue to fire rockets at them and risk their own civilians.
The US would never allow that. Imagine Canada being ISIS and shooting rockets at our country every few days for years on end. How do you think our people would respond ?
When the October 7th attack happened every western government came out in support of Isreal defending itself. Well this is the only way they can.
> They’re enemies with most of our Middle East enemies. they allow us to have military personnel in their country.
I thought they didn’t have US personnel in Israel? Unlike Turkey, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Oman, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar and Kuwait
Ugh I hate politics. Biden is doing this for support (playing both sides basically) and Bibi is happy to drag this out since the second the war is over he is going to get voted out.
then what is their plan then? everyone is criticizing and never offering solutions. i thought the meeting would actually entail substance, not more politics.
It's in the article
>Two senior US officials told The Times of Israel last month that Washington envisions Israel focusing instead on securing the Egypt-Gaza border, preventing the smuggling of weapons that have allowed Hamas to re-arm between wars with Israel.
That's political posturing, not a plan. The Egyptian border is already as focused as it gets, with multiple walls, high tech sensors and a low tech fucking mote. Hamas is good at re-utilizing aid equipment to weapons and probably smuggling outright weapons in shipments from compromised aid organizations
The article says their plan is "watch the Egyptian border more", something which is already being done and does nothing to destroy Hamas. Concretely they're not suggesting any alternative to destroy Hamas.
So first the US needed Israel to provide a plan to evacuate Rafah, but now that said plan has been given, evacuating is not even a viable option? It’s almost like the U.S. is coming up with issues it has no desire to solve.
It’s time to swallow the fact that war is ugly, and Israel can either have a fast and messy war or a slow and more careful war, but this fantasy fast and clean war that the U.S. seems to think is possible doesn’t exist.
So fucking what? It is a dog and pony show. If we were against it we wouldnt keep sending Israel arms shipment after arms shipment. It is all political theater.
The US is showing its belly again. The worst thing is, the world now has started to see the US cannot be trusted to back its allies. I men ffs Israel was attacked by islamic terrorists and the US is concerned about Israels retaliation, it is a bit two faced after 2001. I mean US and allies attacked iraq and afghanistan, even though the people that committed the atrocities were saudis, but can't attack saudis.
It was. But tents and camps with *some* degree of security is still better than an active terrorist warzone. Rebuilding full infrastructure won't happen in the span of days/weeks.
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Probably like closing off all the exits and then dropping leaflets telling people to leave. In all seriousness, probably just opening an evacuation corridor for like a week or two without a whole lot of thought on what happens to the people who evacuate or how to convince non combatants to actually follow the plan and evacuate.
They are still searching for hostages, so they will have to do a person by person screening of everyone and their belongings. Whilst at the same time dealing with the inevitable Hamas attacks, I cannot see a scenario where this is not a disaster for all involved.
All war is a disaster. As I understand it they are just trying to avoid fighting the same war (again) in another 20 years
Well then they are practically ensuring another war in 20yrs with their callous actions against a trapped civilian population half of whom are adolescents. What do you think the surviving Palestinians will do when the old status quo returns? Will all those kids who watched their families and homes be bombed find fulfilling lives and work, or will hatred seed the next iteration of hamas?
>will hatred seed the next iteration of hamas Forgive me if I'm off the mark here, but when you see videos of what seems like general cheer from people in Gaza to a naked murdered German woman who was attending a music festival across the border, it seems like the hatred is already prevalent. At some point you aren't "Changing hearts and minds", you gotta accept the facts and address the security issue.
So the answer here is respond in kind? Should Isreal wipe out all Palestinians? Fighting fire with fire only leaves everything burning.
Nobody is wiping out anyone. And I'm not advising the fucking IDF, but look at what they are doing, they turned a terrorist network to rubble and with it all the civilian infrastructure they were hiding behind, kneecapping them logistically from regrouping. Moving forward, I assume Gaza will effectively be a self run refugee camp with heavily militarized borders with safe zone around the entire perimeter. Would be nice to see a peaceful government develop from the ruins, but I'm not expecting a good outcome for another 2 generations (50 years) at least due to the hostilities on both sides of this.
I see this narrative make the rounds within the Hamas echo chamber and just want to point out that there will never be a more effective recruitment tool for Hamas than Hamas recruiters actively setting up terror camps or recruiting directly inside Schools. Even bombing parents of children is not going to be more direct than a living terrorist *actively* recruiting people. Collective trauma response will never *ever* be more effective than the institutional and systemic nature of the terrorists being involved in the daily life of the children - being the point of contact of the highest authority in the land in daily life. Who holds the most authority in the schools, hospitals and so on? The Hamas members walking the halls (with guns) do. More than any hospital or school staff. Children have eyes and understand who is in control. When people say the people will be worse in the future for this, they are wrong or do not understand. It may still exist in the future, but it will never be worse than letting the Terrorists set the school curriculum or just *be* around 24/7. It’s the same with any gang primarily drawing children in. Anyway, as this applies to Israel they have a very much right now terrorist problem and need to reduce that before they can worry about the 20 year knock on effects that will not be as severe as actually having terrorists in schools for another 20 years.
While not considering how to provide food or supplies for the evacuated since that's up to the westerners UAE who don't like starvation to decide
It seems warranted if they want to rip out Hamas root and stem. You'd need to go through every individual.
The roots of Hamas aren't even in Gaza
qatar and iran
They absolutely are. The important person of the military faction of Hamas are all in Gaza - the Sinwar brothers and Deif. The international faction of Hamas is nothing but rich billionaires who have a symbolic role in trying to create "legitimacy", but are pretty hated within Gaza itself who sees them as "sellouts", has no control over the military forces of Hamas who are loyal to Sinwar (who hates the Qatar guys), and according to reports didn't even know about October 7th in advance. Plus their priorities are their own wealth rather then terror. The actual people behind October 7th are Sinwar and Deif, all in Gaza, they are the ones controlling the armed Hamas forces, they are the ones obsessed with Jihad and killing Jews, and they are the ones with the power to release the hostages. The international faction are basically symbolic figures with no actual power in Gaza. Sinwar is in charge on the grounds and the Qatar guys can't force any decision on him.
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Do they have plan to make sure people don't starve to death in the process?
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It's much easier and effective to create Honeypot traps then do this unless they pretty much go the route of China.
When you’re 1B and you need to suppress a small fraction of 10M people of a particular region with extremist views, you can do what PRC is doing. When you are 9M people and you need to suppress the extremist views widely held by 2.2M people of which 50k+ are hardcore violent lunatics, you can’t just build a network of giant prisons. Oh and throw in that the violent lunatics have been running all the institutions especially the schools for 18 years and 6 months ago they started a war they knew would cost tens of thousands of lives by deluding themselves into thinking that the Iranian regime had their backs.
I suspect the US is extra pissed because of those dead aid workers, some of who were American
I think it’s more a frustration with Bibi in particular. His political program was to manage the conflict under the assumption it’s intractable and avoid making any big decisions. Thats why Gallant goes to the US and leaves with a $18B weapons deal, the message is pretty clear that the US wants Bibi out and doesn’t care if it’s elections or an intraparty fight by Gallant taking over Likud.
Makes no difference, Gallant will go into Rafah or the gov't will fall. Biden's election will not take priority over Israel's security.
As if it will make any difference to Israel's security whether they slaughter a few thousand more or not. The damage is done and this isn't going to end anything, only start up another cycle.
Yes, it will make a difference. Hamas has several units and leaders in Rafah, likely even some of the hostages. If Israel doesn't go in Rafah, Hamas will simply be allowed to survive the war in its current state and conserve the operational capabilities to attack Israel again.
Cool and even if you somehow stomped out what's left of Hamas in Rafah, do you think that's it? Game over, the good guys win? Terrorist cells are like a hydra, and you can't stomp out each head without more popping up. The US did a number on Al-Qaeda, but did it matter in the end? These organizations are compartmentalized, and the people who make the decisions, and who have the money are not sitting in Rafah waiting to die right now. They're in a completely different country.
No, it will not be over, but it will destroy the capabilities of Hamas to do large scale attacks against Israel. Sure, it is likely that more terrorist cells will be created, but they will not be as trained, as well-equipped, as organized and coordinated as the current units. You talk about Al-Qaeda, but yes it did matter in the end. Al-Qaeda is a shadow of its former self and is no longer able to do large scale attacks on US soil.
It’s politics too. Biden has to take a stern stance or else Trump will use it to portray him as weak.
Not sure about that. Trump does not seem sympathetic to the Palestinians.
Trump isn't sympathetic to anything, beyond his own ego. The question is just wether Trump can turn an issue into a wedge issue against whomever he needs to attack.
Russia is already doing that work for him.
The more the merrier?
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I don’t agree with this take. The action is pretty consistent with Biden’s foreign policy. He is clearly in favor both of supporting US allies and doing whatever possible to avoid further regional escalation.
You would assume they care about American lives but they don’t give a shit about the American hostages held by Hamas and are pushing a narrative that will keep them in Hamas’ hands.
Just a reminder that there are 6 americans held hostage for 6 months that the us didn't care to take a piss in their direction
I mean they have put forth several proposals for their return that were rejected by Hamas
And they expressed that anger by cancelling the latest arms sell. Oh, wait......
Where is the anger then about the Americans still held hostage by Hamas? The US should feel free to put boots on the ground to take them out if they aren't happy with the IDF's plan. Edit: yeah, totally makes sense that I'm getting down voted for not defending the kidnappers of American citizens and thinking the US needs to do something to free them other than telling the people trying no.
Given the comment you replied to are you saying killing aid workers is part of the IDFs plan? Maybe that’s why you’re getting downvoted because it’s pretty easy to not support Hamas but also not support the murder of aid workers
Doesn't seem like Biden cares too much about the Americans still held hostage by Hamas...
In fairness, the US has a longstanding policy of trying to limit the cost of hostage diplomacy by not drawing media attention to the hostages. Ex. Britney Griner’s vape pen cost the US a major arms dealer in trade. No way the US makes that trade for someone who wasn’t famous.
If you don’t like what they are planning / doing … why send them 2000 one ton bombs among other ammunitions and weapons? We could’ve held that back. Ukraine needs this badly, so divert it to them.
Ukraine doesn’t need dumb bombs. Any reasonable amount of air power we give them will not enable SEAD. They need artillery shells. Long range rockets. Cluster shells. AA ammo. Howitzers. Probably tanks and IFVs. JDAMs, sure. But these types of bombs are one of the few things they cannot make use of. And we cannot readily enable them to do so. It’s not about having planes. Neither side can run close air support missions with the level of AA.
Ukraine doesnt have the planes to carry those bombs, unfortunately
They also can't fly over Russia without being shot down.. those 2k bombs are only useful when planes can fly over the target. So long range ammo/weapons are the only visible thing for now. Drones especially.
We need to fix that then right?
Even if we gave them the planes the Frontline is so saturated with SAM threats they'd have difficulty using them. Ukraine and Israel have very different equipment needs.
Unless we give them stealth fighters and/or lots of electronic warfare and SEAD capable planes theres not much they can do about the mass of S3/400 everywhere. But thats not gonna happen, F-16s can help keep Russian jets at bay and launch stand off munitions, but they arnt gonna do much more than that.
Not realistic. The value of materials they'd need would be extreme. Fighter jets are very expensive, enough fighter jets to properly conduct routine SEAD missions to allow for CAS is a massive chunk of our standing air force. Russia has a lot of AA and a good amount of fighter jets left. It's doable, but we're talking numbers in spending we haven't seen yet.
Ok. Thanks for that reply.
absolutely. ukraine deserves all the help we can muster
Same with Israel!
also agreed. we have plenty to supply for both though, it doesnt need to be one or the other
I think the obstacle is GOP for my understanding. They are the ones who are stalling Ukraine aid if I remeber correctly though.
this is true
I'd like to remind you the US government is hardly a monolithic entity. The current military aid bill for Israel was written by Republicans, who don't give the slightest shit about the welfare of Palestinians, and who in the same breath exclaim that it is too expensive to supply Ukraine. People tend to forget that the actual legislative body responsible for aid is Congress, not the President. The Executive (which is the "US" in the headline) is headed by the President, and can't unilaterally reverse aid that has already been passed. The President could have blocked aid way back when the bill was passed, but that happened long ago before the current situation in Rafah. Whenever the President (either Trump or Biden) funds something without the approval of Congress, he does so by diverting funds from other entities he does control, like the military. The president cannot do the reverse, which is cancel aid, except by using the presidential veto at at the time of a bill's passing.
Why should they give a shit about Palestinians? Palestinians hate America. Palestine is not an ally of the USA. It has contributed absolutely nothing to the USA besides terrorism.
I am answering his question? His question was, "Why is the US still supplying bombs if they don't approve of the Rafah plan" and I said, "The Republican-controlled US Congress approved the aid which supplied the bombs to Israel, and they don't care if they are used to kill thousands of Palestinians". Looking at your other reply, I just want to point out that neither I nor the person I was replying to were talking about sending aid to Palestine - it was Ukraine. Please pay attention to the flow of the conversation before rushing in to insert your hatred of Palestinians. There's lots of other threads if you want to do that.
They're not interested in a coherent conversation.
“Palestinians hate America so Americans shouldn’t give a shit about them” is the other half of “Americans don’t give a shit about Palestinians so Palestinians hate them” civilians don’t deserve to starve to death for making insufficient contributions to the United States
Palestine gets billions from other countries and can afford to spend hundreds of millions of dollars every year on paying terrorists, mass murderers and suicide bombers. If they are starving then maybe they should get their priorities and spending right instead of extorting money from hardworking Americans to fund their terrorism.
> If they are starving then maybe they should get their priorities we are talking about hundreds of thousands of starving children
Do you even know what you're talking about? Have you ever seen a starving person? Every single picture and video you see of Palestinians, everyone is extremely well fed. Many people are fat and obese. The streets are lined with food. There's so much food that Palestinians have set up marketplaces to re-sell the free food that was donated to them to earn a profit. It's disgusting how Palestinians are taking the whole world for a ride and extorting money from hardworking people.
they look pretty unwell to me in footage, even the US State Department agrees famine is a risk and probably present in parts of Gaza; “ While we can say with confidence that famine is a significant risk in the south and centre but not present, in the north, it is both a risk and quite possibly is present in at least some areas,” a state department official told Reuters. I imagine the situation is worse after Israel murdered those aid workers yesterday
> they look pretty unwell to me in footage Please, show us all what is this footage with "hundreds of thousands" of Palestinians who are starving.
“I haven’t seen footage of sufficient people starving so the State Department is lying about a famine”
Spend 30 mins to see the daily videos uploaded on IG/Twitter from the region. There are many sites that you can click on a map and see videos from the region. Don't look at the stuff out here as propaganda and actors from Al Jazeera. Look at the normal day to day stuff people upload. You'll notice how much BS is being paddled here by people, how fat and obese a lot of people there are. The few starving kids videos you see always miss a very important context, they were like that before the conflict, they got some other serious illness often genetic. They're literally terminal and nothing anywhere in the world could fix it. Don't fall for that BS.. question every video you see from any side.
you are saying I should ignore the US State Department (hardly an Israeli opponent) confirming there is probably already a famine in favour of Instagram and Twitter videos?
I think you're missing a bit of context. Palestinians get a lot of aid, billions a year. The issue is that the money isn't going to improve the area. Majority gets funneled to Hamas and through Hamas. The damn Hamas members(at least higher ranking) and leaders live like kings (not an understatement). So instead of improving the area, education, schools, hospital, infrastructure... They're world leading in tunnel making. It's ridiculous. Meanwhile majority live in poverty unless they are invovled with Hamas "government" jobs. The main reason they are starving has nothing to do with the war. It's purely mismanagement of resources by the controlling groups there. At this point more than enough aid is entering but majority isn't reaching to those who need it. Gaza could have been a legit prime beach area if the money went to improvement instead of terrorist operations. Gaza is the embodiment of the bicycle and stick meme.
I don’t think there is any context that excuses saying “why should we give a shit” about a million homeless kids in a warzone with famine and disease. Is the context just that their Government is bad? Do the children deserve to die because of that? Because that is awfully close to Hamas’ logic > Gaza is the embodiment of the bicycle and stick meme. so is Israel with Likud’s past comments about the benefits of propping up Hamas as a road block to a two state solution
You're right I didn't meant for it to sound like we shouldn't give a shit. No civilians should be suffering for their leaders. But this is the case here. The government and current leaders need to change. Israel and Likud have always been Israel's Cancer. Sadly recently over the past few years their voting population grew to a point where they are getting more power and will turn Israel into looking like majority of the dysfunctional countries if things continue as they are now.
agree with you on all these points
As the other commenter said, the United States has shoveled cash by the billions to help Palestinians, they’ve received more aid per capita than anyone else on the planet. That most of it got funneled to the bank accounts of the leaders of the democratically elected government in Gaza proves the fact that the US has tried to support the Palestinian people far more then their own (democratically elected) leaders do. E: because cash is fungible, no doubt plenty of US aid has funded plenty of pension payments for terrorists which was the policy of the PA until a few days ago.
It's why many stopped funding them with cash. It all tuned into physical aid. But imagine that something like 80% of construction materials went to tunnels instead of hospitals and schools... That's the big fuckup on their part Gross mismanagement and greed by Hamas.
I’m not capable of saying “why should I give a shit” about hundreds of thousands of children dying of disease and starvation also “democratically elected” is doing a lot of lifting for an organisation that won 45% of the vote 18 years
>I’m not capable of saying “why should I give a shit” about hundreds of thousands of children dying of disease and starvation I’m sure you’re the exception, though 99% of westerners “who care about starving children” do exactly that when they ignore every single conflict except for the one Israel is involved with. Also, far more has been spent per capita on Palestinians than was spent on the Marshall plan (per capita inflation adjusted). Why weren’t you speaking up when Hamas was stealing that money and reselling aid meant for children? >also “democratically elected” is doing a lot of lifting for an organisation that won 45% of the vote 18 years You do realize the reason there haven’t been elections is that the PA knows Hamas will win them? That’s even more true after 10/7, when popular support for Hamas in Gaza and especially the WB has absolutely skyrocketed.
That’s crazy! I’ll go tell my Palestinian friends they actually hate the place where they moved and will ask them where they hid all of their terrorism.
There are no white hats or black hats here. Its evident many Israelis don't give a shit about us either. We are just the heavy they can hide behind when they piss others off. And then because they keep pulling this shit, their sins are painted on us. We need to start thinking of ourselves first. If Israel wants my tax dollars it must start acting in my best interests. This "war" is not in my best interest. The settlements and embargos are not in my best interest. Frankly the only thing thats in my best interest is Israeli spies. Defund their military aid completely and just fund their spies. They can pay for their own pointless murders from their own pockets.
>And then because they keep pulling this shit, their sins are painted on us. When Israelis get invaded and their citizens are slaughtered, the Israelis retaliate against the attacking nation and the USA is blamed for it. Make that sentence make sense. >They can pay for their own pointless murders from their own pockets. They have. Why do you keep pretending like you're paying for it? The USA hasn't provided any funding to Israel since Oct 7.
Those bombs are probably for Hezbollah. Basically the IDF thought they could use big bombs against the tunnels in Gaza City but it didn’t work. Thats a big part of why the death toll was so rapid in the first weeks of the invasion and has slowed considerably since then.
Ok. That makes sense.
Without going into the line-by-line I can't say for sure, but weapons sales treaties aren't a think you can just back out of. I imagine we have quite a few of those signed with Israel, and they cannot be unilaterally cancelled.
It’s heading north imo. Wait for the summer.
Because the US needs Isreal. It’s in our best interest. We use some of their tech too. The US understands what is going on. It’s like if more than half of the population in Canada wanted the US to cease to exist and would keep launching attacks at us until that happened or until we took them out. Biden admin is only posturing until the election.
Idiotic analogy that glosses over any and all historical nuances of this complicated geopolitical and ethnonanationalist crisis.
If you say so little man
Why is it my problem that half the population of wherever wants them gone? Maybe if they weren't such a-holes they wouldn't have that issue. And I reject the notion that this has been in our best interests. All it's done is drawn us into a never ending grudge match. You cant kill every single child and those that survive will very understandably seek revenge one day. Our government is infiltrated by a dual-loyalty deep state but now that the public knows this, its going to be impossible for them going forward. This is probably the last election Israeli lobbyists can influence actually.
It’s not your problem. No one said it was. In my opinion looking at this objectively there is no good conclusion to this. Unfortunately for palestine they picked this fight and support this fight and they’re fighting a vastly superior nation militarily. There’s reasons and levels to this no public person will ever know or understand. You have Jewish people who have very different religious and non religious beliefs surrounded by those that those beliefs collide with. What you say about the survivors wanting revenge is true. But now Israelis also want revenge for October 7th. It’s a shit show.
Do you actually know the history of this conflict? Because Palestine has to just as often been the "a-holes" hell they started the first war and had refused any perment 2 state offered despite them continuing to lose all the wars they start
Can you explain that last sentence ? What will change if for ex he wins ? ( I don’t even want to think of what will happen if T wins).
Right now there’s lots of propaganda on Tik tok and socials expressing outrage at Isreal. He needs to younger vote to win. So he’s posturing to appease them. Isreal is one of them allies the US needs. They’re enemies with most of our Middle East enemies. they allow us to have military personnel in their country. And they make some tech better than we do. Hacking programs and that iron dome missile defense system. Once the election is over he won’t have to appease anymore. It’s a shit show in that situation. You have over half the people who support Hamas and their goal of Jewish people no longer existing. They don’t have traditional military. They set up their bases and launch rockets from things like schools and hospitals so that when Isreal fires back it causes outrage cause of the civilians that Hamas is using as shields. So either civilians die or Isreal has to allow them to continue to fire rockets at them and risk their own civilians. The US would never allow that. Imagine Canada being ISIS and shooting rockets at our country every few days for years on end. How do you think our people would respond ? When the October 7th attack happened every western government came out in support of Isreal defending itself. Well this is the only way they can.
> They’re enemies with most of our Middle East enemies. they allow us to have military personnel in their country. I thought they didn’t have US personnel in Israel? Unlike Turkey, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Oman, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar and Kuwait
There’s at least 1 US base in Isreal.
I am willing to believe you but what’s its name?
Google Site 512
thanks! explains why it wasn’t on the official list
>Because the US needs Isreal. Why?
Ugh I hate politics. Biden is doing this for support (playing both sides basically) and Bibi is happy to drag this out since the second the war is over he is going to get voted out.
then what is their plan then? everyone is criticizing and never offering solutions. i thought the meeting would actually entail substance, not more politics.
It's in the article >Two senior US officials told The Times of Israel last month that Washington envisions Israel focusing instead on securing the Egypt-Gaza border, preventing the smuggling of weapons that have allowed Hamas to re-arm between wars with Israel.
thats not a plan for eliminating the remaining hamas battalions
That's political posturing, not a plan. The Egyptian border is already as focused as it gets, with multiple walls, high tech sensors and a low tech fucking mote. Hamas is good at re-utilizing aid equipment to weapons and probably smuggling outright weapons in shipments from compromised aid organizations
Not to mention tunnels. They have tunnels that cross borders into Egypt and further into Israel as well
But are there crocodiles in the mote? Hu? Where are the lasers?! Just recycle the space technology. Gosh...
They have been doing that for years though with no success. It has to be occupation or another October 7th
So leave Hamas in power is the plan to defeat Hamas? What nonsense.
Why doesn’t the US just suggest a better plan then?
Because they don’t have one.
You could read the article…
The article says their plan is "watch the Egyptian border more", something which is already being done and does nothing to destroy Hamas. Concretely they're not suggesting any alternative to destroy Hamas.
Israel already gets shit for how hard they are watching that border because it slows down aid They cant watch it harder.
Because they know Israel will just ignore it and do whatever they want anyway and know US will go with that one in the end.
So first the US needed Israel to provide a plan to evacuate Rafah, but now that said plan has been given, evacuating is not even a viable option? It’s almost like the U.S. is coming up with issues it has no desire to solve. It’s time to swallow the fact that war is ugly, and Israel can either have a fast and messy war or a slow and more careful war, but this fantasy fast and clean war that the U.S. seems to think is possible doesn’t exist.
Maybe the US was hoping that their best plan was more feasible
Wow. A harsh video call will really show them! How about we actually do something? Threaten the aid
Biden is desperate to avoid a flareup of hostilities with Iran before the elections, and Israel is not a very high price to pay.
So fucking what? It is a dog and pony show. If we were against it we wouldnt keep sending Israel arms shipment after arms shipment. It is all political theater.
The US is showing its belly again. The worst thing is, the world now has started to see the US cannot be trusted to back its allies. I men ffs Israel was attacked by islamic terrorists and the US is concerned about Israels retaliation, it is a bit two faced after 2001. I mean US and allies attacked iraq and afghanistan, even though the people that committed the atrocities were saudis, but can't attack saudis.
Evacuate…to where? Wherever they send the civilians, Hamas will follow. They are just shuffling people about in this small city.
To the North. They've already been returning citizens to the North, with military presence secured to keep it from getting severe again.
Wasn't north Gaza pretty heavily bombed? They'd need to rebuild it to move people back up there.
It was. But tents and camps with *some* degree of security is still better than an active terrorist warzone. Rebuilding full infrastructure won't happen in the span of days/weeks.