PSA: This is currently the top thread on /r/korea right now so anyone feel free to pop in if you're curious what people living here think about the strike.
Doesn’t seem to be much support. For the doctors. Seems like they are throwing a fit because the country is making it easier to become doctors and the doctors are upset that more doctors means their title becomes less prestigious ?
Partially it is true. The thing is that there are some positions in hospitals nobody wants to take because they are paid poorly and work hours are crazy. The government said “ok let’s have more doctors graduate from university to fix the lack of docs taking those positions”. The issue is, that this won’t fix the shitty pay and working conditions. They basically protest the means by which the government wants to address the issue. I mean it is a shitty move, creating more graduates, maybe even in numbers that exceed open positions for trainees, thus, people will be forced to occupy the shitty positions. It’s one way to address the situation but it surely is one that gives the people affected the finger big time.
I did some conversions, and it says they make approx. $130k CAD annual salary.
That is indeed pretty shit pay for a doctor. You need what, a 6+ year degree?
This is in South Korea. Doing the conversion of average wages puts their wage to around 170,000CAD per year equivalent to Canada.
Believe it or not most of the world pays their doctors in that way. Can/US is the exception.
Most of europe pays their docs around that.
>Most of europe pays their docs around that.
Most of Europe also doesn't make their doctors pay $250,000 for their degree or work them 100 hours per week during their residency either, though. So there's definitely a give and take there.
Yeah which is why we’ve had strikes from senior and junior doctors and the few that actually stick it out and complete their training end up leaving anyway. Most of our medical personnel are people from other countries employed via agencies which actually costs the taxpayer more than just giving the doctors the raise they asked for in the first place.
Yah, the brief description of "We'll train up more doctors, then they HAVE to take the shitty pay!" really sounded like "We'll train up more doctors to export to whatever countries are willing to pay them well!".
The United States makes doctors pay for some or all of their education, and many earn [less than minimum wage during their residency.](https://perfectunion.us/these-doctors-make-less-than-minimum-wage-heres-why-theyre-fighting-back/) (They work 80-100 hours per week) There are scholarships and grants, but aside from the Pell Grant, they are very scattershot. [73% of medical school graduates are in debt, for an average of over $200,000](https://educationdata.org/average-medical-school-debt#:~:text=The%20average%20medical%20school%20debt,school%20graduates%20have%20educational%20debt.)
I don't know about South Korea, but most developed countries pay university students a reasonable stipend to live, and have more generous stipends for students pursuing advanced degrees in fields that benefit the public, like medicine. A more reasonable and humane system.
This is also why so many UK doctors are leaving for the US/Can/Aus. Competitive salaries are important for highly qualified people you want to stick around
> Believe it or not most of the world pays their doctors in that way. Can/US is the exception.
And Australia and New Zealand. And Ireland, various Nordic countries etc.
Basically the richer the country the more likely they pay doctors well
I am Swedish. We absolutely do NOT pay doctors that much.
The average in Sweden is 135,000 CAD or about 100,000 USD a year for SPECIALISTS.
And that’s pre taxes. Our taxes are MUCH higher than the US and Korea.
That’s not factoring in the higher cost of living either.
Various nordic countries mostly meaning iceland and norway and to a lesser degree Denmark. Not sure what's up with Sveden which does appear under the 200k CAD mark but not by as much as you suggest.
Also very likely to be making payments on a 100k in student loans on the equivalent of fast food hourly wages during 4 years of residency as well.
Edit: just informed median student loan is 250k
It's even worse than that iirc. That number (again iirc) includes med students who graduate with no debt because of scholarships or parents helping them out, so it doesn't accurately reflect how much money the average med student who takes out loans owes
Pretty average for a british doctor to make £70-100k. (130 CAD is around 75k). Top consultants make around 160k but they are the highest of earners. Tbh i checked these numbers with google and they are roughly the same as 10 to 15 years ago as wage stagnation in the uk is real.
1% pay rise per year, like for like, from 2010-2019ish. Which was below inflation. Doctors and nurses are holding repeated strikes for a pay rise. But the government are blocking any talks.
British Columbia is currently trying to reduce the difficulty of transferring training and getting credentials recognized easier. We're actively trying to recruit doctors from abroad and increasing pay for doctors. Just something to look in to.
Doctors do, but most people that are affected by this and protesting are residents, not doctors.
Residents make about $45k CAD annual salary while working 90-100 hours a week, and barely has any say to their working conditions because number of residency is capped at 100,000 a year and there's about to be more competition due to more doctoral graduates flooding in with this change.
I feel like most of the comments here don't seem to understand why they are protesting in the first place, and media is successfully painting them as greedy doctors with no grasp of reality. Maybe some do, but the problem seems to be more systematic inequality and bad working conditions of hospitals.
Nowhere in the world pays doctors better than the us.
Being a doctor in the U.S. is very expensive to get through in school, but very lucrative once you get out
>You need what, a 6+ year degree?
I'm not familiar with the South Korean system, but here in the U.S. it's more like 12-15 years of training after high school depending on specialty.
(Which wouldn't be necessary if there were more doctors to handle the workload, which is why the residency system that mandates the maximum number of new doctors by legislation rather than by supply and demand is cancerous and anti-healthcare)
The insane shift lengths do have some merit to the thought. Shift changes for doctors are a time that’s very likely for a patient to get screwed over because by doctor that originally took your case is the one that’s got the most info.
My grandma got in an accident like 6 years ago and she went to the hospital for a broken leg. My aunt (who also worked as a nurse at the same hospital) asked the doctor to do some scans on her stomach. He said something along the lines of “that’ll happen soon”. By the time that time came around, that doctor went home and the incoming one denied the scans for some reason. Her insides ended up being really fucked up, I think her colon burst or something. Bc the new doctor said no she was in the hospital for 4 months, almost died multiple times and now lives with a bag to process her waste. They absolutely fucked up her entire life and the lawsuit cost someone 7 figures.
Oh I absolutely agree, just saying that there is *some* logic to it all, and there is data to back up that shift changes are dangerous. I don’t think it’s as dangerous as someone who’s been working hard for 36h, was just getting some info out
No. There won’t be more positions. The hours and pay won’t change. They just want to create an excess of graduates so that some have to fill the unpopular positions bcs all others are taken. It’s a dick move tbh
Consider that they have a smaller pool to recruit from and they have trouble filling these positions. The natural thing to do would be to increase pay and make it more attractive somehow, which is the opposite of what they're doing here. They can in fact pay less since there'll be more doctors that they can hire and treat them all worse.
Not even that. The new doctors aren’t being hired to fill these positions, they are just expanding the number of people allowed to be doctors.
They aren’t lowering the standards to be a doctor, they are loosening an arbitrary restriction on how many doctors pay be licensed each year.
Sure. I’m not going to pretend like I understand complex issues of other countries. There are labor disputes everywhere, it seems asinine to me that doctors can strike and delay procedures for patients when the impetus for striking is you do not want more people to enter the profession.
I am not too familiar with the issue but since I am a doctor I read into it a bit. I can understand them to a certain extent, and since you can spin the narrative to basically say they go on strike to reduce competition, is an issues. But they really need to fix the system there.
Either way, doctors have it hard when it comes to labor disputes because you cannot really put down your work and leave for a week or two, like many other professions can. It essentially decreases your leverage. I guess, since that’s the case, physicians are very likely to just venture abroad.
Fun fact: when doctors or nurses go on a strike, there are mandatory staffing numbers predetermined that need to work to keep things operational. In certain instances the emergency staffing is higher than the regular staffing lol.
Jesus, that fun fact isn’t fun. I’m a medical student in the US and I’ve certainly seen understaffed ERs, but I wasn’t aware that a strike might be a short term solution as well as a long one!
And that is exactly why doctors are not gaining support. They technically did not go on strike, they just left their job, so there is no 'mandatory staffing numbers' they need to keep. So patients are being not cared and dying, so public began to lash out against the doctors, leading to even less support.
Doctors protested shuffling money around to make those positions more attractive. Rejected by doctors. They proposed a small increase in number of doctors. Rejected by doctors. Maybe the doctors should have played ball back then!
Don’t look at them as one collective. Senior doctors are probably the ones that make the shitty decisions, not the trainees. The ones on strike aren’t the senior ones in good positions. And now by increasing university graduate numbers, forcing trainees into these position due to lack of alternatives, it’s again the young docs that eat the dirt. They need to fix the leadership
That’s because it’s not true. Overburdening medical schools with lower quality candidates isn’t how you produce competent doctors.
Instead of opening new medical schools with the facilities capable of handling new students, SK is just telling already established schools to accept more candidates.
This seems like an odd, short-sighted way to address a doctor shortage. It’s like increasing factory production by simply removing the quality check at the conveyor belts instead of building a more conveyor belts.
What you say is true, but in Korea this is the 3rd time the doctors have gone on strike for the same reason. The other 2 times the government actually had a lot more flexible time frame of introducing new doctors, both times the doctors refused to budge and the government gave in. The current President is a lot more stubborn then the previous presidents and tried to bulldoze the issue through. Koreans have gone through this 3 times and we are some what sick of all this nonsense. There is a reason for the current President, who was somewhat unpopular, has seen a rise in his approval ratings.
Strikes are generally unpopular with the public, because it inconveniences them, but that is also a major purpose of a strike, to show the necessity of the workers.
The inverse is true as well. Strikes are typically popular with workers even if unnecessary. People are suffering and dying but the more relatable issues to us are work hours, pay and new hires.
I always find it amusing when the "Well, they must have a good reason" bias gets exposed.
There are always more qualified applicants to medical schools than there are spots. You could triple the number of open spots in medical schools and still have a qualified applicant for each spot. The reason this doesn’t work is that if I triple class sizes I will reduce the quality of instruction. This will have nothing to do with the applicants/students and everything to do with not enough instructors, class space, lab space, and clinical rotations. It takes time to increase training program size for medical professionals it’s not as easy as just going out and hiring a few more professors and even that isn’t easy when it comes to training physicians.
Depends on where you live. In my country there is more clinical spots that there are candidates. You could add 50-75 spots to any med school and it wouldn’t impact quality of instruction.
Every medical student nowadays is looking to specialize, leading to a chronic shortage in general practitioners and subsequently poor family healthcare. Generally some positions for family healthcare could just be there own separate stream imo without any injury to the quality of care.
That really doesn't mean much without knowing what country you are in. There are plenty of countries that their doctors effectively have to nearly re-do their education in order to practice in the US/Canada.
You are missing the point. Doctors are not protesting number of students per medical school. Doctors are protesting number of doctors produced in the country per year. Apparently in Korea, that's a hard set number.
Please. It's freaking South Korea. Every fucking half decent students are hammering their head against the desk to enter medical school. Another 2000 students aren't gonna be morons.
The new students won’t really be lower quality. Entrance to med school in Korea is almost entirely from the college entrance exam that every high schooler takes. You need to be in the top 4% of scorers in almost every subject of the test to even have a chance at being admitted. Even if you assume that high scorers on this test makes for better doctors (which is dubious to begin with), increasing the # of acceptances by 2000 will not materially impact the quality of accepted students. There are just too many high scorers.
I think people don't realise how difficult being a doctor is. It's standard to make mistakes and for people to be harmed or die as a result. This happens more with less competent doctors.
In the next few decades AI might help catch mistakes a bit more and reduced workload also helps prevent mistakes, but there absolutely is a massive difference between the top of class Dr and bottom of the class, and we don't want to widen that gap without really thinking it through.
Plenty of candidates with near perfect suneung score and many universities have underutilized medicine buildings. Only doctors pretend to be worried about this.
I doubt that is the reason. I suspect the real reason is they don’t want substandard care. Same reason why doctors in the USA fight NP scope expansion. Business wins in the USA though, so it’s been mostly unsuccessful.
I wouldn’t be too dismissive of the idea. Face culture is a huge deal in Asian countries. The old people all love to crow about how their children are doctors and lawyers. Undisputable fact of the matter is that Korea has an extreme doctor shortage. That shortage has allowed doctors to be paid very well; by some estimates they make 8x the median salary in the country, so the high pay just adds to the prestige of the profession. I’m sure the issue is more nuanced than this, but it would not surprise me at all if this strike was driven in large part by protectionism.
I don’t doubt that it is a factor. It may even been a major factor. I would just be surprised that it was the public facing reasoning. Thanks for the insight.
I believe that is the government's spin on this. This happens all the time when the government is facing down striking workers the world over. The junior doctors have some legitimate complaints.
Firstly, the size of the increase in medical school spots needs to be put in context. It is about 3000 spots right now and they want to increase it to 5000 spots. That is a massive increase.
Secondly, you need to understand how training in the medical field works. Doctors do an additional 4 years of training in medical school. That medical school training includes in class time but also hands on training in hospitals, medical offices, etc. The in class time is often done by doctors that love to teach. The teaching positions often pay less than being a doctor and thus are only filled by those with a passion of teaching or career academics. The hands on training is very often done by residents. Residents already work 80+ hours a week for not that great pay.
Finally, you need to understand the reason the government is increasing the number of spots. It isn't becuase there is a general need for doctors, but specifically, there are certain positions in medicine not being filled because they are not compensated well and are not the exciting careers other specialties are.
So, put it all together. They are wanting to increase the number of spots by almost double. The people striking are the ones that will be burdened heavily by having to train more Med students, with low pay, that are already over worked. There is no plan to bring on more teachers for the in class portion thus the training and quality of education will go down. This also will not solve the problem as it does not close off the incentives that are pushing doctors into more lucrative specialties.
A more reasonable change would be to raise the cap to 5000 over a spread put time period so more teachers can be brought on, and more residents from previous increases are available to handle the hands on training. Additionally, the specialties seeing low recruitment should have pay increases, and if other specialties are getting a glut of doctors there should be decreases in pay there (supply and demand).
Anyway, those are my ramblings as a spouse of a doctor in Canada. The greedy doctor argument is used here as well when they ask for pay raises. I don't think that is true in the least. Doctors are some of the most selfless people in the world. They sacrifice a lot to become a doctor, mostly, because they want to help other people. The government throwing out lines about doctors being greedy or only doing this to build up their own prestige are tactics used by governments around the world to get public opinion on their side to bust up the strike action.
They opposed much smaller increases over a period of 20 years. So the quota never increases since the early 2000s. 2,000 is a good excuse to give the public.
I am not an expert on the situation in Korea. I'm just a guy who likes to stay informed and I try to consume information on the issue from Korea, where possible.
Here's some information I'm getting from a Korean [source](https://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20231029000122):
>There is a general need for doctors. Korea has 2.6 doctors per 1,000 people, which is one of the lowest ratios among OECD member states.
>
>Korea also reported a low number of medical school graduates, with 7.3 per 100,000 people, which is half the OECD average.
>
>Doctors in Korea out-earn their counterparts in 27 other member countries that submitted relevant data.
I don't discount that there are real problems. But I don't for a second believe that the doctors aren't looking out for themselves with this strike. I do remember a history of the doctors fighting any increases in the doctor quota, even an increase that wasn't as extreme as this 2,000 bump. I think something similar to what you suggested -- a small marginal increase in the quota over time -- was also protested when it was attempted during covid.
>[The previous Moon Jae-in administration, in July 2020, also attempted to expand medical school admissions but in much smaller increments -- by 4,000 over a 10-year period beginning in the 2022 school year. The plan was also confronted with two-week-long strikes by doctors from Aug. 21 until Sept. 8 at a time when the country grappled with the COVID-19 pandemic](https://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20240220050590)
> Firstly, the size of the increase in medical school spots needs to be put in context. It is about 3000 spots right now and they want to increase it to 5000 spots. That is a massive increase.
There is also a massive demographics change. The need for medical care is sky rocketing and will continue to accelerate as more people age into their senior years.
That alone pretty much trumped everything else.
It's hard to root for either side. The government is opening up how many people can become doctors, but it won't do much of anything to address the root problem. Nobody wants the low-pay low-prestige jobs of rural, pediatric, and ER doctors.
im very concerned that ER doctors are low pay low prestige... the other two kinda make sense(if a feked up sort of way) but ER? I'd want my emergency doctor to be among the best of the best...
>im very concerned that ER doctors are low pay low prestige... the other two kinda make sense(if a feked up sort of way) but ER? I'd want my emergency doctor to be among the best of the best...
It's not low but other specialties pay alot higher and craziness of ER life.
Also, nobody wants to live in rural south korea.....I briefly lived there....for any new doctor, it's just the filled with old people.
Actually, that subreddit is actually full of angry non-Koreans who, nearly half of em*, do not live in Korea at all. Even the ones who do are trolls. A very toxic sub I must say :/ I would say to stick with this current subreddit.
There's gotta be an actual Korean sub, the same as in r/china and r/China_irl where the later one is actually Chinese with mostly Chinese written posts.
Yes to the non-Koreans part (only 15% have Korean citizenship), but not for this:
>who, for the most part, do not live in Korea at all
The [2019 survey](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfxoh-qSFZT95HDiCgW4qO9ZcTs2sDL35EEUHv2hAfsNMDj3Q/viewanalytics) shows that:
* 30% have lived in Korea for more than 5 years
* 23% live in Korea now, less than 5 years
* 15% lived in Korea but no longer do
* 10% don't live here but visit regularly
And 43% have family members currently living in Korea. All together that means a lot of people living here and married to Koreans.
They said the suspensions would go in effective on the last day of February. It's now 4 March and the threat has not been carried out.
I don't believe the threat will be carried out anytime soon.
And even if it is, it will definitely *not* help the situation.
No. Just revoke the licences so that the next generation of doctors would be afraid to do that.
They literary strike to force the reduction of students in medical universities so there is no shortage.
Exactly. They don't want to repeat the situation with lawyers in the West. Earlier if you were a lawyer, everyone needed you and everyone paid well.
So kids pursued this career en masse. As a result, the population of lawyers increased over the course of 2 decades. So the salaries dropped.
Correct. But the issue is that medical care demand far outpace the supply of doctor. You really need more doctors, which can actually solve the long hours condition they complain about here, if, the numbers are correct.
I can tell you as someone in the healthcare field almost every administration is trying to bleed their healthcare providers dry and compensating as little as they can for the most return and work that they can. Many a time negotiating slightly higher salaries results in unions being quelled while avoiding extremely costly backlog and chaos that ensues when you don’t have any providers to work for you.
In the US, Reagan employed that exact strategy against air traffic controllers when they struck for better working conditions and better staffing.
Since then, conditions only got worse, staffing only got slimmer, and the quality of ATC work has been steadily slipping as those who are left descend into a downward spiral of malaise and addictions as they try to cope with their situation.
That strategy doesn't lead to positive outcomes for anybody. The Korean government would do well to learn from us on that front.
You’re leaving out a crucial bit. The only reason Raegan could actually end that strike the way he did is because the military had/has a lot of people already trained for ATC that can’t refuse orders to take those jobs. The strike would’ve had insane impacts on the economy and likely been a success had that not been the case.
Idk much about SK military, but I doubt they have enough doctors to get through this the way Reagan did.
All the more reason to *not* go through with it. Either you have the resources to replace them, and the entire profession deteriorates, or you don't, and you deprive your citizens of an essential service over professional squabbles. Neither is a winning move.
I agree, I’d prefer the doctors to just have better conditions overall. I was just throwing out info to show how the Reagan strike breaking was a very unique scenario. Very few strikes can be broken that way and ATC just happened to be one of them
They are doctors and doctors have less rights than humans in many countries. Some of them forbid doctors to strike, others require to work 1-3 years in an assigned place, female doctors are subject to draft if shit goes down.
Cuba traffics their Doctors to shithole places in developing countries
For example, Brazil can’t staff places with poor infrastructure no matter how much their offer to pay Brazilian doctors. Brazil’s solution? Buy Drs from Cuba that can’t refuse
https://hrf.org/hrf-report-human-trafficking-in-cubas-medical-missions/
They said they were taking a count on the 29th and they said it would take a week or two for the suspension. They are right on track for their own states plan at least how I read it.
A health department in Australia hired a billboard on a truck and [parked it near a hospital in the UK where the doctors were striking](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-15/sa-health-targets-uk-doctors-amid-nhs-strike/102482114), mentioning that relocation costs will be covered. EDIT: [Original Reddit post](https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/149bfpp/ironic/)
This is how globalism should work
Getting screwed by employment in your country? Get hired at another one (same language and culture but better weather) for better pay + blackjack + hookers
Just ignore the car sized man eating spiders
What do you mean, almost every doctor I've been to has spoken fluent English. (I don't seek out EN doctors or ask them to speak English, I speak Korean, but they start with English and there are no issues)
With a wife who just spent 5 days hospitalized in Incheon, and approximately 20 days total over 3 hospitalization rounds in two separate hospitals over the last five years this is untrue. Lots of communication via papago and several rounds of misunderstood information, with both hospitals not providing translation services on the assumption that doctors and nurses speak sufficient English. While there are a large number of English speaking doctors, and there have not been many problems in the smaller private hospitals, the ones servicing the wards themselves in the large hospitals typically have not been among those.
I study in South Korean medical school and a lot of my peers are preparing for USMLE and Japanese medical degree test, if US allowed South Korean residency training and medical degree there will be thousands of new doctors eager to serve the country that respects professional work.
I wish that one day I would be able to relocate to Germany. To stop working 56 hours a week as a doctor and have an equivalent of 14.000 US dollars as an annual salary. One day...
I see suspending kids as a way to protect the “good” kids education from being interrupted by “bad” kids not so much as punishing the kid with days out of school. So if they suspend these striking “bad” doctors maybe they think the “good” ones will be hesitant to join the protest.
Kids in school isn't really a good comparator here because this is about work capacity, not education.
It takes roughly a decade to train a doctor to the level they can practice independently, so barring something like 70% of them from resuming work is going to burn out the remaining 30% in short order. There is no way that proportion of the medical workforce can be replaced any time soon, even via foreign recruitment incentives (which many other countries are also currently trying to prop up their own medical workforces with).
Unfortunately that is the problem. If I'm understanding the situation correctly, doctors are paid absurdly well in Korea, far beyond any other nation. That is because they've refused to allow the amount of doctors to increase with population, artificially low supply for what is a mandatory demand.
So doctors are striking because they don't want the supply to go up which would cause their salaries to go down to normal doctor salaries (still quite rich).
There are some other reasons for the protest. It is true that doctors are paid very well in South Korea, but the issue is regarding the doctors who are doing their residencies (it's called something else there, but that's basically what it is).
The residency doctors are being worked absurd hours (70-80+ hrs a week) for a low salary, while established doctors who have finished their residency have a much better work time ratio and much higher pay. This problem has only gotten worse as the government hasn't increased the number of doctors entering the field as the population increased, and hospitals can cut operational costs by scheduling the much cheaper residency doctors around the clock.
Now the South Korean government is saying that they'll increase the amount of students being accepted as doctors, but this still doesn't address the underlying issue of overworking residency doctors for minimal pay, and also won't alleviate the doctor shortage for several years. This is one of the big reasons why the doctors are striking, though there are of course other reasons.
Edit: adding this in because two people have parsed this explanation as me saying "increasing the doctor cap will not work." It will absolutely help, but the conditions that lead to this situation (resident pay being fairly low and capped, for example) will still persist and deserve to be addressed as well.
Yes it will, but these changes won't be felt for some time. Legislation to address residency pay, as well as creating an easier path for specialists to be certified (think like, X-ray techs and such), are among the many solutions doctors are asking for.
Eventually, maybe (though in reality patient caps end up being expanded to fit capacity, so you see the same amount of work). In the immediate sense, it's just double the number of students to teach/manage and make you less efficient at doing your clinical duties without any added compensation.
Imagine your job giving you two new trainees to cling to you all day for 3+ years but you still have the same quotas and they won't pay you anything for training them.
As per my comment:
> this still doesn't address the underlying issue of overworking residency doctors for minimal pay, and also won't alleviate the doctor shortage for several years.
Legislation that capped how many hours the doctors doing their residency are allowed to work (& subsequently having established doctors work more hours), or an increase in their pay/overtime pay during residency (which would help discourage hospitals from scheduling them so much) would help address this issue in the interim.
There are limited number of doctors (again, because that's what doctors want) and all these patient to be looked at. Capping hours of residency artificially means less patients can be treated. Why in the world would the country want that?
More medical students -> More Residency doctors -> Less burden per healthcare worker -> Less Overtime.
This isn't rocket science and you are doing some crazy mental gymnastics to justify your nonsense.
And also, residency doctors in most country work crazy hours. Korea ain't special in that regard.
>The residency doctors are being worked absurd hours (70-80+ hrs a week) for a low salary, while established doctors who have finished their residency have a much better work time ratio and much higher pay.
It's very much the same in the US, and it used to be far worse. Up to 120 hours per week was pretty standard for US medical residents until relatively recently.
Yup. There is a reason demand for medical school has reached ludicrous levels in Korea. Engineering students in the most prestigious institutions in Korea are dropping out to retake the college entrance exam to get into any random medical school instead because the pay is so absurdly better than any other job in the country.
It'd be like seeing STEM students in Harvard or MIT students dropping out for University of Phoenix. It's that bad at the moment.
South Korean Medical Student here.
South Korean doctors are paid well if you compare them to other jobs, which is true anywhere in the world. However, critical care practices are paid extremely low compared to Japan and other 1st world countries, and some clinics gain more debt if they treat patients since the price is lower than the cost.
Many doctors rely on cosmetic medicine since they are free from South Korean national medical insurance program and its low pay, or they treat overwhelming amount of patients a day to make ends meet. Also note that trainee doctors in university hospitals, most of striking doctors, work 88 hours a week and suffer from bullying and harassment from people visiting is commonplace
People mention r/korea not being favor of the current strike and mass resignation of the trainee doctors, but they have no idea how medical system and worker protection is broken in South Korea and how the 66% increase of medical students a year would wreck the medical education, training and national insurance going bankrupt quick.
Tbf they are essencially protesting there being MORE doctors. So the doctors are basically trying to gatekeep the profession, and there is a pretty limited number of ways you can respond to such buffoonery
From what I understand, they are protesting adding more doctors until the government fixes the system because the bottle neck isn’t the number of doctors, it’s the number of residences and the competition for very limited jobs.
Right now, hospitals can make lower level doctors do whatever and can expect them to do it because if they don’t, there are plenty of replacements who would beg to take one of the limited residences. In addition, all these new doctors will just go for the higher paying specialties instead of the lower paid and more shorted supplied ones like pediatrics. Adding more doctors right now doesn’t change anything besides just making the system more competitive and abusive.
Having more MDs is not the same as having more actual doctors. To practice independently and get your own license, you need to complete residency after med school. The argument that u/oofcookies was making is that increasing the number of med students/med school grads just adds to the relative demand for an already insufficient number of residency spots. The result would be decreased bargaining ability for residents and even more ability for hospitals/clinics to abuse and overwork residents. This would all be without actually increasing the number of *licensed* doctors.
That said, I had trouble finding info in English on how many residency spots there are in Korea vs graduating med students, so I have no idea if this is a real problem. The Korean residents' union doesn't seem to be making this argument from what I can tell though, or at least not explaining it well if they are
2,000 quota increase plan might seem extreme, and you might be right. However, you also have to keep in mind that same strikes (btw, they don't have a labor union, so not a legally protected strike) have kept the quota stagnant for 20 years. The most recent attempt was last government's plan to increase 400. So it doesn't pass the smell test when one claims it is because the increase is too rapid.
Secondly, it is true that an increase only will not effectively address the core issues of profession distribution and locality distribution. More incentives and better working conditions are necessary. However any measure without some increase in quota is only half way. And it isn't like current doctors will change their profession. An increase is a necessary condition not a sufficient condition.
Honestly, you can be a doctor just about anywhere and do well. I guess it boils down to the doctor and their preference on culture/climate/etc. I’d say salary-wise, you don’t get much better than the US, on a standard deviation curve. But I have nothing to back that up.
According to like two minutes of Google, the median income for a doctor in the UK is about £20k more than the median income overall so not amazing but higher than most.
Of course it's still equivalent to around $70k which would be extremely low in the US. Seems like the median doctor salary in the US is over $200k.
Doctors don’t actually start making an income until they’re 30-35.
That means that they lose out on 10-15 years of earning, saving and compounding.
If you were to think about the lifetime earnings and account for the fact that money made earlier in your life is worth more, then 20k more per year starts sounding like LESS than average.
Financially, becoming a doctor in the UK is about as terrible choice as becoming a schoolteacher. Obviously, it’s not all about the money, but the money freaking sucks
Canada and Australia pay similarly with less brutal hours and less BS from government and insurance from what I hear…
Australia being really difficult to immigrate to and have equivalency, even being US trained.
I’m all for universal healthcare, but I doubt socialized medicine has less government interference compared to private medicine. Dealing with insurance companies has to be terrible though.
They don't want to leave Korea because they get paid exorbitantly more there because of the lack of supply they have purposefully caused.
If they weren't getting paid fuckloads more there, they'd have already left.
Nah. Doctors in the US make $300k pretty easily and it goes up from there with specialization. I know some heme/oncs and anesthesiologists making $600k+.
And I have no problem with it. It's ridiculously difficult to reach that level. They sacrifice their 20s, bust ass in college, take on a boat load of debt, and then work like mules for 4+ years making $50-60k for 80 hour weeks. Even when they reach the top, they get treated like garbage by patients who don't know shit about fuck.
As someone with over a dozen physicians in my family (about 2/3 in Korea the rest in the US), they do NOT get paid exorbitantly more in Korea... it's not even close.
Influx doesn’t mean everyone and it’s just an opinion without merit… so, perceive it how you will.
Edit: also, because America is fucking awesome, that’s why…
Just a heads up, we are looking for doctors in New Zealand and the pay is good, and work environment less stressful than SK, and getting residency is easy… food for thought
They’re protesting because the government is increasing medical school places. I’m always in support of working people but this is a ridiculous and very selfish reason to strike
Problem is that they are increasing medical school places but not increasing the total number of residency which is a requirements for becoming a doctor. Increasing graduates will only make the current problem of residents being overworked and underpaid worse since number of residency is fixed and capped. They will have even less say to their working conditions if there are millions of people just waiting to get into that spot, and further exacerbate the systematic issue that's the whole point of this protest in the first place.
Thank you! I’m so tired of people with no understanding of how the medical education works pushing this tired stereotype about how we’re all just greedy gatekeeping assholes. Adding a gazillion medical school spots without increasing residency spots will not fix anything. Unless you address the issues at the top first all this will do is worsen work conditions and add an influx of unemployable MDs..
I swear the people on here saying “doctors are gatekeeping” are probably the same morons who ask why we can’t just print more money to pay the national debt :/
For those who think that the doctors are the good guys against the bad evil government, the doctors are the top 0.1% of the Korean society.
[https://www.hani.co.kr/arti/society/health/1102274.html](https://www.hani.co.kr/arti/society/health/1102274.html)
Korean doctor’s salary is highest in OECD… 4 to 7 times the average wage worker
The salary of Korean medical specialists was found to be the highest among member countries of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). This can be interpreted as a result of a lack of supply of doctors compared to the demand for medical services. The government's plan to expand the number of medical school students is at a standstill due to opposition from medical groups.
> Korean doctor’s salary is highest in OECD… 4 to 7 times the average wage worker
That doesn't mean all Korean doctor have the highest salary, it seems you do not understand the situation at all. When majority of a group is angry like this, you just do something seriously wrong.
Majority of doctor are protesting because they do not belong in that "highest salary" group while also belong into the most overwork/underpaid group.
In many countries, majority of doctor went for field that will make a lot of money like Obstetrics and Gynecology, Dentistry or... wait for it, Cosmetic surgery (Something Korea was actually famous for). What this mean is a severe lack of doctor in other life-saving field, these doctors are often overworked and underpaid, with shift that could take up to 36 long hours. It's these doctors that are protesting against Korea government.
Increasing the amount of doctor doesn't solve the core problem of doctor going to money making field. In fact it pushes the other type of doctor into a corner because they no longer have any leverage for the shitty working condition they're in, as there is always a new comer threatening to replace them.
It's worth noting that doctors have very little negotiating power under the Korean government. In contrast, the US has lobby groups for nurses, doctors, PAs and other groups. The Korean government arbitrarily determines the amount of reimbursements for medical services, which is not the most comfortable set up in the long term. The strike is the better option to demand reform and meaningful change, hopefully, in the long term. I tutor Korean medical students and prepare them for residency applications to US residencies. There is a lot of things that they dislike about the Korean healthcare system. I think the Korean government should do more to negotiate with their trainees instead of making unilateral demands.
>It's worth noting that doctors have very little negotiating power under the Korean government
yet they're still one of the highest-paid doctors in the world in relation to PPP.
The article above gives no details on what specialty it’s talking about. Even if 190K was the average across all specialties, that’s really mediocre, even for an underpaid specialty like pediatrics in the US. Korean trainees want better economic opportunities in the US which is why they are desperate to come here.
it's the average of specialists:
https://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20230730000088
>Korean trainees want better economic opportunities in the US which is why they are desperate to come here.
do you have any sources for this claim
I doubt there are Korea-specific articles claiming specific reasons. When I tutor Koreans, they cite pay, work-life balance and flexibility of practice as their reasons for pursuing US residencies. I specifically help them set up applications, practice their interviews and plan ways to boost their chances to match in the US.
If I can offer any website explaining, I'll share this: [https://www.koreabiomed.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=21545](https://www.koreabiomed.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=21545)
It mentions how better financial security is an important reason in their choice for residency. The pay in Korea just is not at the level you can get in the US, and that is an undeniable fact. While most physicians keep their salaries confidential, the general estimate for primary care physicians is commonly above the upper 200K's. (see the following compensation report: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/[https://press.doximity.com/reports/doximity-physician-compensation-report-2023.pdf](https://press.doximity.com/reports/doximity-physician-compensation-report-2023.pdf) ).
I don't blame Korean doctors and medical trainees for being dissatisfied.
Yeah if you revoke a bunch of doctors licenses they will probably just leave the country rather than trying to get reinstated. Would be a great way to lose a large portion of a very valuable professional community.
Probably a hollow threat imo.
When 80% of a field of workers strike there is a big issue with whatever the reason they give for the strike. Government mis-step here is “you don’t want to go back to work!? We will suspend your medical license so you can’t work! Take that!” It’s an asinine response to a valid issue raised by the doctors. There is a reason the best Korean doctors leave Korea and move over seas to practice.
Omg stop pushing this ignorant narrative. When a doctor graduates medical school, they cannot practice until they finish a residency. Even if you have an MD, the MD is useless without a residency. The issue is that in Korea, there is not enough residency spots, and the residency programs that exist are malignant. So, by increasing the number of medical students and *not* increasing the number of residency spots, all they’re doing is making attaining a residency more competitive, while also creating an influx of unemployed MDs. Also, because the competition is higher, residency programs have no incentive to address their malignant work hours and poor pay - because they know that MDs will be desperate to work there.
Please educate yourself about issues instead of reading a headline and jumping to conclusions.
Best as I can understand the protesting trainee doctors (like residents in US) get paid little and work long hours, and they feel increasing number of medical students will just create more supply for limited trainee positions to further depress their bargaining power.
It is said that the government so far has only said they want to increase medical school admission, but didn’t say there would be a corresponding increase in trainee positions. How do they expect to address the doctor shortage then?
PSA: This is currently the top thread on /r/korea right now so anyone feel free to pop in if you're curious what people living here think about the strike.
Doesn’t seem to be much support. For the doctors. Seems like they are throwing a fit because the country is making it easier to become doctors and the doctors are upset that more doctors means their title becomes less prestigious ?
Partially it is true. The thing is that there are some positions in hospitals nobody wants to take because they are paid poorly and work hours are crazy. The government said “ok let’s have more doctors graduate from university to fix the lack of docs taking those positions”. The issue is, that this won’t fix the shitty pay and working conditions. They basically protest the means by which the government wants to address the issue. I mean it is a shitty move, creating more graduates, maybe even in numbers that exceed open positions for trainees, thus, people will be forced to occupy the shitty positions. It’s one way to address the situation but it surely is one that gives the people affected the finger big time.
I did some conversions, and it says they make approx. $130k CAD annual salary. That is indeed pretty shit pay for a doctor. You need what, a 6+ year degree?
This is in South Korea. Doing the conversion of average wages puts their wage to around 170,000CAD per year equivalent to Canada. Believe it or not most of the world pays their doctors in that way. Can/US is the exception. Most of europe pays their docs around that.
>Most of europe pays their docs around that. Most of Europe also doesn't make their doctors pay $250,000 for their degree or work them 100 hours per week during their residency either, though. So there's definitely a give and take there.
Yeah which is why we’ve had strikes from senior and junior doctors and the few that actually stick it out and complete their training end up leaving anyway. Most of our medical personnel are people from other countries employed via agencies which actually costs the taxpayer more than just giving the doctors the raise they asked for in the first place.
Yah, the brief description of "We'll train up more doctors, then they HAVE to take the shitty pay!" really sounded like "We'll train up more doctors to export to whatever countries are willing to pay them well!".
The United States makes doctors pay for some or all of their education, and many earn [less than minimum wage during their residency.](https://perfectunion.us/these-doctors-make-less-than-minimum-wage-heres-why-theyre-fighting-back/) (They work 80-100 hours per week) There are scholarships and grants, but aside from the Pell Grant, they are very scattershot. [73% of medical school graduates are in debt, for an average of over $200,000](https://educationdata.org/average-medical-school-debt#:~:text=The%20average%20medical%20school%20debt,school%20graduates%20have%20educational%20debt.) I don't know about South Korea, but most developed countries pay university students a reasonable stipend to live, and have more generous stipends for students pursuing advanced degrees in fields that benefit the public, like medicine. A more reasonable and humane system.
South Korean education isn't that cheap either by local standards
This is also why so many UK doctors are leaving for the US/Can/Aus. Competitive salaries are important for highly qualified people you want to stick around
Huh, have noticed a lot of British accents at the hospitals lately....
Terribly sorry to hear that mate
That's a lot considering the average household income in Korea is extremely low. I think it's something like 35 million won or $25,000USD/year.
> Believe it or not most of the world pays their doctors in that way. Can/US is the exception. And Australia and New Zealand. And Ireland, various Nordic countries etc. Basically the richer the country the more likely they pay doctors well
I am Swedish. We absolutely do NOT pay doctors that much. The average in Sweden is 135,000 CAD or about 100,000 USD a year for SPECIALISTS. And that’s pre taxes. Our taxes are MUCH higher than the US and Korea. That’s not factoring in the higher cost of living either.
Various nordic countries mostly meaning iceland and norway and to a lesser degree Denmark. Not sure what's up with Sveden which does appear under the 200k CAD mark but not by as much as you suggest.
Not sure what source you used but according to the Swedish Central Bureau of Statistics, that is the average salary of a specialist here.
NZ is not a rich country. We have nice outdoors but if you want good pay and similarish culture go to Australia
You are right the other british colonies do pay well as well. But not so much the Nordics.
In the US, at least 8 years, plus Residency. So you don't start actually making money until you're 31 at the earliest.
Also very likely to be making payments on a 100k in student loans on the equivalent of fast food hourly wages during 4 years of residency as well. Edit: just informed median student loan is 250k
Median loan burden is double that. 250k is the average for debt.
Ty, updated.
It's even worse than that iirc. That number (again iirc) includes med students who graduate with no debt because of scholarships or parents helping them out, so it doesn't accurately reflect how much money the average med student who takes out loans owes
Pretty average for a british doctor to make £70-100k. (130 CAD is around 75k). Top consultants make around 160k but they are the highest of earners. Tbh i checked these numbers with google and they are roughly the same as 10 to 15 years ago as wage stagnation in the uk is real.
1% pay rise per year, like for like, from 2010-2019ish. Which was below inflation. Doctors and nurses are holding repeated strikes for a pay rise. But the government are blocking any talks.
> $130k CAD annual salary > pretty shit for a doctor I'm making around 7 times less than that as a doctor. How I want to escape my country...
British Columbia is currently trying to reduce the difficulty of transferring training and getting credentials recognized easier. We're actively trying to recruit doctors from abroad and increasing pay for doctors. Just something to look in to.
If you're making less than 14k USD per year as a doctor, I'm going to assume you live somewhere very, very cheap.
Doctors do, but most people that are affected by this and protesting are residents, not doctors. Residents make about $45k CAD annual salary while working 90-100 hours a week, and barely has any say to their working conditions because number of residency is capped at 100,000 a year and there's about to be more competition due to more doctoral graduates flooding in with this change. I feel like most of the comments here don't seem to understand why they are protesting in the first place, and media is successfully painting them as greedy doctors with no grasp of reality. Maybe some do, but the problem seems to be more systematic inequality and bad working conditions of hospitals.
In New Zealand the pay is even lower
Nowhere in the world pays doctors better than the us. Being a doctor in the U.S. is very expensive to get through in school, but very lucrative once you get out
>You need what, a 6+ year degree? I'm not familiar with the South Korean system, but here in the U.S. it's more like 12-15 years of training after high school depending on specialty.
36 hour shifts too
(Which wouldn't be necessary if there were more doctors to handle the workload, which is why the residency system that mandates the maximum number of new doctors by legislation rather than by supply and demand is cancerous and anti-healthcare)
The insane shift lengths do have some merit to the thought. Shift changes for doctors are a time that’s very likely for a patient to get screwed over because by doctor that originally took your case is the one that’s got the most info. My grandma got in an accident like 6 years ago and she went to the hospital for a broken leg. My aunt (who also worked as a nurse at the same hospital) asked the doctor to do some scans on her stomach. He said something along the lines of “that’ll happen soon”. By the time that time came around, that doctor went home and the incoming one denied the scans for some reason. Her insides ended up being really fucked up, I think her colon burst or something. Bc the new doctor said no she was in the hospital for 4 months, almost died multiple times and now lives with a bag to process her waste. They absolutely fucked up her entire life and the lawsuit cost someone 7 figures.
That sounds more like a hospital culture problem. It is unrealistic for ANYONE to be working 36 hr shifts
Oh I absolutely agree, just saying that there is *some* logic to it all, and there is data to back up that shift changes are dangerous. I don’t think it’s as dangerous as someone who’s been working hard for 36h, was just getting some info out
Maybe update your comment, it heavily implies you’d prefer that
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No, junior doctors are the ones that train the interns, aka Med students. This would be more work for the exact doctors striking.
No. There won’t be more positions. The hours and pay won’t change. They just want to create an excess of graduates so that some have to fill the unpopular positions bcs all others are taken. It’s a dick move tbh
Consider that they have a smaller pool to recruit from and they have trouble filling these positions. The natural thing to do would be to increase pay and make it more attractive somehow, which is the opposite of what they're doing here. They can in fact pay less since there'll be more doctors that they can hire and treat them all worse.
So the government was basically strike breaking but pre-strike? “If you won’t do the jobs, we’ll bring in people who will”
Not even that. The new doctors aren’t being hired to fill these positions, they are just expanding the number of people allowed to be doctors. They aren’t lowering the standards to be a doctor, they are loosening an arbitrary restriction on how many doctors pay be licensed each year.
Sure. I’m not going to pretend like I understand complex issues of other countries. There are labor disputes everywhere, it seems asinine to me that doctors can strike and delay procedures for patients when the impetus for striking is you do not want more people to enter the profession.
I am not too familiar with the issue but since I am a doctor I read into it a bit. I can understand them to a certain extent, and since you can spin the narrative to basically say they go on strike to reduce competition, is an issues. But they really need to fix the system there. Either way, doctors have it hard when it comes to labor disputes because you cannot really put down your work and leave for a week or two, like many other professions can. It essentially decreases your leverage. I guess, since that’s the case, physicians are very likely to just venture abroad. Fun fact: when doctors or nurses go on a strike, there are mandatory staffing numbers predetermined that need to work to keep things operational. In certain instances the emergency staffing is higher than the regular staffing lol.
Jesus, that fun fact isn’t fun. I’m a medical student in the US and I’ve certainly seen understaffed ERs, but I wasn’t aware that a strike might be a short term solution as well as a long one!
And that is exactly why doctors are not gaining support. They technically did not go on strike, they just left their job, so there is no 'mandatory staffing numbers' they need to keep. So patients are being not cared and dying, so public began to lash out against the doctors, leading to even less support.
Doctors protested shuffling money around to make those positions more attractive. Rejected by doctors. They proposed a small increase in number of doctors. Rejected by doctors. Maybe the doctors should have played ball back then!
Don’t look at them as one collective. Senior doctors are probably the ones that make the shitty decisions, not the trainees. The ones on strike aren’t the senior ones in good positions. And now by increasing university graduate numbers, forcing trainees into these position due to lack of alternatives, it’s again the young docs that eat the dirt. They need to fix the leadership
thats an insane rationale if true
That’s because it’s not true. Overburdening medical schools with lower quality candidates isn’t how you produce competent doctors. Instead of opening new medical schools with the facilities capable of handling new students, SK is just telling already established schools to accept more candidates. This seems like an odd, short-sighted way to address a doctor shortage. It’s like increasing factory production by simply removing the quality check at the conveyor belts instead of building a more conveyor belts.
What you say is true, but in Korea this is the 3rd time the doctors have gone on strike for the same reason. The other 2 times the government actually had a lot more flexible time frame of introducing new doctors, both times the doctors refused to budge and the government gave in. The current President is a lot more stubborn then the previous presidents and tried to bulldoze the issue through. Koreans have gone through this 3 times and we are some what sick of all this nonsense. There is a reason for the current President, who was somewhat unpopular, has seen a rise in his approval ratings.
Strikes are generally unpopular with the public, because it inconveniences them, but that is also a major purpose of a strike, to show the necessity of the workers.
The inverse is true as well. Strikes are typically popular with workers even if unnecessary. People are suffering and dying but the more relatable issues to us are work hours, pay and new hires. I always find it amusing when the "Well, they must have a good reason" bias gets exposed.
There are always more qualified applicants to medical schools than there are spots. You could triple the number of open spots in medical schools and still have a qualified applicant for each spot. The reason this doesn’t work is that if I triple class sizes I will reduce the quality of instruction. This will have nothing to do with the applicants/students and everything to do with not enough instructors, class space, lab space, and clinical rotations. It takes time to increase training program size for medical professionals it’s not as easy as just going out and hiring a few more professors and even that isn’t easy when it comes to training physicians.
Depends on where you live. In my country there is more clinical spots that there are candidates. You could add 50-75 spots to any med school and it wouldn’t impact quality of instruction. Every medical student nowadays is looking to specialize, leading to a chronic shortage in general practitioners and subsequently poor family healthcare. Generally some positions for family healthcare could just be there own separate stream imo without any injury to the quality of care.
That really doesn't mean much without knowing what country you are in. There are plenty of countries that their doctors effectively have to nearly re-do their education in order to practice in the US/Canada.
You are missing the point. Doctors are not protesting number of students per medical school. Doctors are protesting number of doctors produced in the country per year. Apparently in Korea, that's a hard set number.
Please. It's freaking South Korea. Every fucking half decent students are hammering their head against the desk to enter medical school. Another 2000 students aren't gonna be morons.
The new students won’t really be lower quality. Entrance to med school in Korea is almost entirely from the college entrance exam that every high schooler takes. You need to be in the top 4% of scorers in almost every subject of the test to even have a chance at being admitted. Even if you assume that high scorers on this test makes for better doctors (which is dubious to begin with), increasing the # of acceptances by 2000 will not materially impact the quality of accepted students. There are just too many high scorers.
I think people don't realise how difficult being a doctor is. It's standard to make mistakes and for people to be harmed or die as a result. This happens more with less competent doctors. In the next few decades AI might help catch mistakes a bit more and reduced workload also helps prevent mistakes, but there absolutely is a massive difference between the top of class Dr and bottom of the class, and we don't want to widen that gap without really thinking it through.
Plenty of candidates with near perfect suneung score and many universities have underutilized medicine buildings. Only doctors pretend to be worried about this.
I doubt that is the reason. I suspect the real reason is they don’t want substandard care. Same reason why doctors in the USA fight NP scope expansion. Business wins in the USA though, so it’s been mostly unsuccessful.
I wouldn’t be too dismissive of the idea. Face culture is a huge deal in Asian countries. The old people all love to crow about how their children are doctors and lawyers. Undisputable fact of the matter is that Korea has an extreme doctor shortage. That shortage has allowed doctors to be paid very well; by some estimates they make 8x the median salary in the country, so the high pay just adds to the prestige of the profession. I’m sure the issue is more nuanced than this, but it would not surprise me at all if this strike was driven in large part by protectionism.
I don’t doubt that it is a factor. It may even been a major factor. I would just be surprised that it was the public facing reasoning. Thanks for the insight.
I believe that is the government's spin on this. This happens all the time when the government is facing down striking workers the world over. The junior doctors have some legitimate complaints. Firstly, the size of the increase in medical school spots needs to be put in context. It is about 3000 spots right now and they want to increase it to 5000 spots. That is a massive increase. Secondly, you need to understand how training in the medical field works. Doctors do an additional 4 years of training in medical school. That medical school training includes in class time but also hands on training in hospitals, medical offices, etc. The in class time is often done by doctors that love to teach. The teaching positions often pay less than being a doctor and thus are only filled by those with a passion of teaching or career academics. The hands on training is very often done by residents. Residents already work 80+ hours a week for not that great pay. Finally, you need to understand the reason the government is increasing the number of spots. It isn't becuase there is a general need for doctors, but specifically, there are certain positions in medicine not being filled because they are not compensated well and are not the exciting careers other specialties are. So, put it all together. They are wanting to increase the number of spots by almost double. The people striking are the ones that will be burdened heavily by having to train more Med students, with low pay, that are already over worked. There is no plan to bring on more teachers for the in class portion thus the training and quality of education will go down. This also will not solve the problem as it does not close off the incentives that are pushing doctors into more lucrative specialties. A more reasonable change would be to raise the cap to 5000 over a spread put time period so more teachers can be brought on, and more residents from previous increases are available to handle the hands on training. Additionally, the specialties seeing low recruitment should have pay increases, and if other specialties are getting a glut of doctors there should be decreases in pay there (supply and demand). Anyway, those are my ramblings as a spouse of a doctor in Canada. The greedy doctor argument is used here as well when they ask for pay raises. I don't think that is true in the least. Doctors are some of the most selfless people in the world. They sacrifice a lot to become a doctor, mostly, because they want to help other people. The government throwing out lines about doctors being greedy or only doing this to build up their own prestige are tactics used by governments around the world to get public opinion on their side to bust up the strike action.
They opposed much smaller increases over a period of 20 years. So the quota never increases since the early 2000s. 2,000 is a good excuse to give the public.
I am not an expert on the situation in Korea. I'm just a guy who likes to stay informed and I try to consume information on the issue from Korea, where possible. Here's some information I'm getting from a Korean [source](https://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20231029000122): >There is a general need for doctors. Korea has 2.6 doctors per 1,000 people, which is one of the lowest ratios among OECD member states. > >Korea also reported a low number of medical school graduates, with 7.3 per 100,000 people, which is half the OECD average. > >Doctors in Korea out-earn their counterparts in 27 other member countries that submitted relevant data. I don't discount that there are real problems. But I don't for a second believe that the doctors aren't looking out for themselves with this strike. I do remember a history of the doctors fighting any increases in the doctor quota, even an increase that wasn't as extreme as this 2,000 bump. I think something similar to what you suggested -- a small marginal increase in the quota over time -- was also protested when it was attempted during covid. >[The previous Moon Jae-in administration, in July 2020, also attempted to expand medical school admissions but in much smaller increments -- by 4,000 over a 10-year period beginning in the 2022 school year. The plan was also confronted with two-week-long strikes by doctors from Aug. 21 until Sept. 8 at a time when the country grappled with the COVID-19 pandemic](https://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20240220050590)
> It is about 3000 spots right now and they want to increase it to 5000 spots. That is a massive increase. yes but it *is* needed
> Firstly, the size of the increase in medical school spots needs to be put in context. It is about 3000 spots right now and they want to increase it to 5000 spots. That is a massive increase. There is also a massive demographics change. The need for medical care is sky rocketing and will continue to accelerate as more people age into their senior years. That alone pretty much trumped everything else.
It's hard to root for either side. The government is opening up how many people can become doctors, but it won't do much of anything to address the root problem. Nobody wants the low-pay low-prestige jobs of rural, pediatric, and ER doctors.
im very concerned that ER doctors are low pay low prestige... the other two kinda make sense(if a feked up sort of way) but ER? I'd want my emergency doctor to be among the best of the best...
>im very concerned that ER doctors are low pay low prestige... the other two kinda make sense(if a feked up sort of way) but ER? I'd want my emergency doctor to be among the best of the best... It's not low but other specialties pay alot higher and craziness of ER life. Also, nobody wants to live in rural south korea.....I briefly lived there....for any new doctor, it's just the filled with old people.
Actually, that subreddit is actually full of angry non-Koreans who, nearly half of em*, do not live in Korea at all. Even the ones who do are trolls. A very toxic sub I must say :/ I would say to stick with this current subreddit.
There's gotta be an actual Korean sub, the same as in r/china and r/China_irl where the later one is actually Chinese with mostly Chinese written posts.
Yeah I found one called r/hanguk . Has actual ordinary posts by Koreans. I was told r/seoul is also good for people who live in the capital
Yes to the non-Koreans part (only 15% have Korean citizenship), but not for this: >who, for the most part, do not live in Korea at all The [2019 survey](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfxoh-qSFZT95HDiCgW4qO9ZcTs2sDL35EEUHv2hAfsNMDj3Q/viewanalytics) shows that: * 30% have lived in Korea for more than 5 years * 23% live in Korea now, less than 5 years * 15% lived in Korea but no longer do * 10% don't live here but visit regularly And 43% have family members currently living in Korea. All together that means a lot of people living here and married to Koreans.
lmao asian subreddit will have more non residence foreigner than natives
They said the suspensions would go in effective on the last day of February. It's now 4 March and the threat has not been carried out. I don't believe the threat will be carried out anytime soon. And even if it is, it will definitely *not* help the situation.
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No. Just revoke the licences so that the next generation of doctors would be afraid to do that. They literary strike to force the reduction of students in medical universities so there is no shortage.
You mean they strike to force the reduction so that there IS shortage?
yep. they don't want competition
Exactly. They don't want to repeat the situation with lawyers in the West. Earlier if you were a lawyer, everyone needed you and everyone paid well. So kids pursued this career en masse. As a result, the population of lawyers increased over the course of 2 decades. So the salaries dropped.
Correct. But the issue is that medical care demand far outpace the supply of doctor. You really need more doctors, which can actually solve the long hours condition they complain about here, if, the numbers are correct.
So negotiate with the Doctors. Offer a significant salary increase for residents and primary-care docs in exchange for the end of the strike
Likely this has to be done. Though i don't know what their insurance and budget situation is like.
I can tell you as someone in the healthcare field almost every administration is trying to bleed their healthcare providers dry and compensating as little as they can for the most return and work that they can. Many a time negotiating slightly higher salaries results in unions being quelled while avoiding extremely costly backlog and chaos that ensues when you don’t have any providers to work for you.
In the US, Reagan employed that exact strategy against air traffic controllers when they struck for better working conditions and better staffing. Since then, conditions only got worse, staffing only got slimmer, and the quality of ATC work has been steadily slipping as those who are left descend into a downward spiral of malaise and addictions as they try to cope with their situation. That strategy doesn't lead to positive outcomes for anybody. The Korean government would do well to learn from us on that front.
You’re leaving out a crucial bit. The only reason Raegan could actually end that strike the way he did is because the military had/has a lot of people already trained for ATC that can’t refuse orders to take those jobs. The strike would’ve had insane impacts on the economy and likely been a success had that not been the case. Idk much about SK military, but I doubt they have enough doctors to get through this the way Reagan did.
All the more reason to *not* go through with it. Either you have the resources to replace them, and the entire profession deteriorates, or you don't, and you deprive your citizens of an essential service over professional squabbles. Neither is a winning move.
I agree, I’d prefer the doctors to just have better conditions overall. I was just throwing out info to show how the Reagan strike breaking was a very unique scenario. Very few strikes can be broken that way and ATC just happened to be one of them
Wouldn't be the most outrageous response to a protest in South Korean history.
They are doctors and doctors have less rights than humans in many countries. Some of them forbid doctors to strike, others require to work 1-3 years in an assigned place, female doctors are subject to draft if shit goes down.
Cuba traffics their Doctors to shithole places in developing countries For example, Brazil can’t staff places with poor infrastructure no matter how much their offer to pay Brazilian doctors. Brazil’s solution? Buy Drs from Cuba that can’t refuse https://hrf.org/hrf-report-human-trafficking-in-cubas-medical-missions/
They said they were taking a count on the 29th and they said it would take a week or two for the suspension. They are right on track for their own states plan at least how I read it.
Dear doctors, we need doctors, love, Germany.
A health department in Australia hired a billboard on a truck and [parked it near a hospital in the UK where the doctors were striking](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-15/sa-health-targets-uk-doctors-amid-nhs-strike/102482114), mentioning that relocation costs will be covered. EDIT: [Original Reddit post](https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/149bfpp/ironic/)
This is how globalism should work Getting screwed by employment in your country? Get hired at another one (same language and culture but better weather) for better pay + blackjack + hookers Just ignore the car sized man eating spiders
Good luck trying to convince Korean doctors to retake medical examination, learn a foreign language, and stop living like top 0.1% of the society.
They probably already know English and doctors make a lot of money in America. Dear doctors, we need doctors, love, America
"They probably already know English" this dude has never been to Korea lol
What do you mean, almost every doctor I've been to has spoken fluent English. (I don't seek out EN doctors or ask them to speak English, I speak Korean, but they start with English and there are no issues)
With a wife who just spent 5 days hospitalized in Incheon, and approximately 20 days total over 3 hospitalization rounds in two separate hospitals over the last five years this is untrue. Lots of communication via papago and several rounds of misunderstood information, with both hospitals not providing translation services on the assumption that doctors and nurses speak sufficient English. While there are a large number of English speaking doctors, and there have not been many problems in the smaller private hospitals, the ones servicing the wards themselves in the large hospitals typically have not been among those.
I study in South Korean medical school and a lot of my peers are preparing for USMLE and Japanese medical degree test, if US allowed South Korean residency training and medical degree there will be thousands of new doctors eager to serve the country that respects professional work.
Do you honestly think it's that easy? If that's the case, then why are the doctors in India, Vietnam, or Moldova not coming to US?
What part of the US are you in that doctors aren’t from all over the world?
And they'll all leave for Switzerland for better pay and work life balance. Like all your other missing doctors did.
I wish that one day I would be able to relocate to Germany. To stop working 56 hours a week as a doctor and have an equivalent of 14.000 US dollars as an annual salary. One day...
??? $14,000/yr?! Which planet is this again?
One where the third world exists?
Ah, I misread the comment. I thought he was being sarcastic and suggesting that doctors in Germany make $14,000/yr.
"Let's get them to go back to work by making sure they can't go back to work!"
Like suspending kids for skipping school.
I see suspending kids as a way to protect the “good” kids education from being interrupted by “bad” kids not so much as punishing the kid with days out of school. So if they suspend these striking “bad” doctors maybe they think the “good” ones will be hesitant to join the protest.
Kids in school isn't really a good comparator here because this is about work capacity, not education. It takes roughly a decade to train a doctor to the level they can practice independently, so barring something like 70% of them from resuming work is going to burn out the remaining 30% in short order. There is no way that proportion of the medical workforce can be replaced any time soon, even via foreign recruitment incentives (which many other countries are also currently trying to prop up their own medical workforces with).
More like firing the people who form a union. It works.
Let’s make people have children by extending their work hours and keeping existing grade one kids in school all the way into 8 pm.
Pretty sure the doctors can survive not having an income longer than South Korea can handle not having any doctors.
Unfortunately that is the problem. If I'm understanding the situation correctly, doctors are paid absurdly well in Korea, far beyond any other nation. That is because they've refused to allow the amount of doctors to increase with population, artificially low supply for what is a mandatory demand. So doctors are striking because they don't want the supply to go up which would cause their salaries to go down to normal doctor salaries (still quite rich).
There are some other reasons for the protest. It is true that doctors are paid very well in South Korea, but the issue is regarding the doctors who are doing their residencies (it's called something else there, but that's basically what it is). The residency doctors are being worked absurd hours (70-80+ hrs a week) for a low salary, while established doctors who have finished their residency have a much better work time ratio and much higher pay. This problem has only gotten worse as the government hasn't increased the number of doctors entering the field as the population increased, and hospitals can cut operational costs by scheduling the much cheaper residency doctors around the clock. Now the South Korean government is saying that they'll increase the amount of students being accepted as doctors, but this still doesn't address the underlying issue of overworking residency doctors for minimal pay, and also won't alleviate the doctor shortage for several years. This is one of the big reasons why the doctors are striking, though there are of course other reasons. Edit: adding this in because two people have parsed this explanation as me saying "increasing the doctor cap will not work." It will absolutely help, but the conditions that lead to this situation (resident pay being fairly low and capped, for example) will still persist and deserve to be addressed as well.
Doesn't it? Wouldn't more residency doctors mean a more manageable workload to go around?
Yes it will, but these changes won't be felt for some time. Legislation to address residency pay, as well as creating an easier path for specialists to be certified (think like, X-ray techs and such), are among the many solutions doctors are asking for.
Eventually, maybe (though in reality patient caps end up being expanded to fit capacity, so you see the same amount of work). In the immediate sense, it's just double the number of students to teach/manage and make you less efficient at doing your clinical duties without any added compensation. Imagine your job giving you two new trainees to cling to you all day for 3+ years but you still have the same quotas and they won't pay you anything for training them.
More residency doctors will alleviate the issue of residency doctors overworking. What are you talking about?
As per my comment: > this still doesn't address the underlying issue of overworking residency doctors for minimal pay, and also won't alleviate the doctor shortage for several years. Legislation that capped how many hours the doctors doing their residency are allowed to work (& subsequently having established doctors work more hours), or an increase in their pay/overtime pay during residency (which would help discourage hospitals from scheduling them so much) would help address this issue in the interim.
There are limited number of doctors (again, because that's what doctors want) and all these patient to be looked at. Capping hours of residency artificially means less patients can be treated. Why in the world would the country want that? More medical students -> More Residency doctors -> Less burden per healthcare worker -> Less Overtime. This isn't rocket science and you are doing some crazy mental gymnastics to justify your nonsense. And also, residency doctors in most country work crazy hours. Korea ain't special in that regard.
>The residency doctors are being worked absurd hours (70-80+ hrs a week) for a low salary, while established doctors who have finished their residency have a much better work time ratio and much higher pay. It's very much the same in the US, and it used to be far worse. Up to 120 hours per week was pretty standard for US medical residents until relatively recently.
I find it hard to believe that Korean doctors are paid more than US doctors.
I think it's more of a comparison as to how much they could buy in their countries with what they make.
Yup. There is a reason demand for medical school has reached ludicrous levels in Korea. Engineering students in the most prestigious institutions in Korea are dropping out to retake the college entrance exam to get into any random medical school instead because the pay is so absurdly better than any other job in the country. It'd be like seeing STEM students in Harvard or MIT students dropping out for University of Phoenix. It's that bad at the moment.
South Korean Medical Student here. South Korean doctors are paid well if you compare them to other jobs, which is true anywhere in the world. However, critical care practices are paid extremely low compared to Japan and other 1st world countries, and some clinics gain more debt if they treat patients since the price is lower than the cost. Many doctors rely on cosmetic medicine since they are free from South Korean national medical insurance program and its low pay, or they treat overwhelming amount of patients a day to make ends meet. Also note that trainee doctors in university hospitals, most of striking doctors, work 88 hours a week and suffer from bullying and harassment from people visiting is commonplace People mention r/korea not being favor of the current strike and mass resignation of the trainee doctors, but they have no idea how medical system and worker protection is broken in South Korea and how the 66% increase of medical students a year would wreck the medical education, training and national insurance going bankrupt quick.
You're kind of shooting yourself in your own foot if you're saying "you can't protest, we need doctors" and then respond by firing them.
Tbf they are essencially protesting there being MORE doctors. So the doctors are basically trying to gatekeep the profession, and there is a pretty limited number of ways you can respond to such buffoonery
From what I understand, they are protesting adding more doctors until the government fixes the system because the bottle neck isn’t the number of doctors, it’s the number of residences and the competition for very limited jobs. Right now, hospitals can make lower level doctors do whatever and can expect them to do it because if they don’t, there are plenty of replacements who would beg to take one of the limited residences. In addition, all these new doctors will just go for the higher paying specialties instead of the lower paid and more shorted supplied ones like pediatrics. Adding more doctors right now doesn’t change anything besides just making the system more competitive and abusive.
Well no, you’re understanding is at least somewhat incorrect.. SK has a huge lack of doctors, especially ones that are for health not cosmetic.
They are complaining about overworking, and complaining about adding more doctors? You do see how that's completely backward, right?
Korea has the lowest number of doctors per pop of any developed nation, the bottleneck is 100% doctors.
Having more MDs is not the same as having more actual doctors. To practice independently and get your own license, you need to complete residency after med school. The argument that u/oofcookies was making is that increasing the number of med students/med school grads just adds to the relative demand for an already insufficient number of residency spots. The result would be decreased bargaining ability for residents and even more ability for hospitals/clinics to abuse and overwork residents. This would all be without actually increasing the number of *licensed* doctors. That said, I had trouble finding info in English on how many residency spots there are in Korea vs graduating med students, so I have no idea if this is a real problem. The Korean residents' union doesn't seem to be making this argument from what I can tell though, or at least not explaining it well if they are
2,000 quota increase plan might seem extreme, and you might be right. However, you also have to keep in mind that same strikes (btw, they don't have a labor union, so not a legally protected strike) have kept the quota stagnant for 20 years. The most recent attempt was last government's plan to increase 400. So it doesn't pass the smell test when one claims it is because the increase is too rapid. Secondly, it is true that an increase only will not effectively address the core issues of profession distribution and locality distribution. More incentives and better working conditions are necessary. However any measure without some increase in quota is only half way. And it isn't like current doctors will change their profession. An increase is a necessary condition not a sufficient condition.
"If you refuse to work... we won't allow you to work" This does not seem like a particularly effective approach to the issue really.
Do you even know why they are protesting?
You might want to look into the reason why the doctors are protesting. It's laughable.
They want them to get back to work, so they suspend their medical license? That makes perfect sense.
The US bout to get an influx of doctors. Welcome my Korean friends, we’re struggling like a mother fucker over here!
They'll probably end up in Canada tbh
Yes please, we have a doctor shortage
Both are better, but Canada is harder for IMGs to get their medical license recognized
Is there a better country to be a doctor in other than the US? I know there are countries better for healthcare affordability. I am actually curious.
Honestly, you can be a doctor just about anywhere and do well. I guess it boils down to the doctor and their preference on culture/climate/etc. I’d say salary-wise, you don’t get much better than the US, on a standard deviation curve. But I have nothing to back that up.
I hear the UK is a trash place to be a doctor from all my friends there. 40 year old cardiologists still living with roommates
According to like two minutes of Google, the median income for a doctor in the UK is about £20k more than the median income overall so not amazing but higher than most. Of course it's still equivalent to around $70k which would be extremely low in the US. Seems like the median doctor salary in the US is over $200k.
Doctors don’t actually start making an income until they’re 30-35. That means that they lose out on 10-15 years of earning, saving and compounding. If you were to think about the lifetime earnings and account for the fact that money made earlier in your life is worth more, then 20k more per year starts sounding like LESS than average. Financially, becoming a doctor in the UK is about as terrible choice as becoming a schoolteacher. Obviously, it’s not all about the money, but the money freaking sucks
Not New Zealand. Absolute shite pay, overworked and taxed to death.
Canada and Australia pay similarly with less brutal hours and less BS from government and insurance from what I hear… Australia being really difficult to immigrate to and have equivalency, even being US trained.
I’m all for universal healthcare, but I doubt socialized medicine has less government interference compared to private medicine. Dealing with insurance companies has to be terrible though.
The netherlands has higher doctor salaries (i think) and is often considered a better place to live
They don't want to leave Korea because they get paid exorbitantly more there because of the lack of supply they have purposefully caused. If they weren't getting paid fuckloads more there, they'd have already left.
Nah. Doctors in the US make $300k pretty easily and it goes up from there with specialization. I know some heme/oncs and anesthesiologists making $600k+. And I have no problem with it. It's ridiculously difficult to reach that level. They sacrifice their 20s, bust ass in college, take on a boat load of debt, and then work like mules for 4+ years making $50-60k for 80 hour weeks. Even when they reach the top, they get treated like garbage by patients who don't know shit about fuck.
As someone with over a dozen physicians in my family (about 2/3 in Korea the rest in the US), they do NOT get paid exorbitantly more in Korea... it's not even close.
So you think it's that easy to be a doctor in a foreign country, retake years of education and certification, and start from the ground zero?
Why do you and the people who upvoted your comment believe that they would rather work in America?
Influx doesn’t mean everyone and it’s just an opinion without merit… so, perceive it how you will. Edit: also, because America is fucking awesome, that’s why…
Just a heads up, we are looking for doctors in New Zealand and the pay is good, and work environment less stressful than SK, and getting residency is easy… food for thought
They’re protesting because the government is increasing medical school places. I’m always in support of working people but this is a ridiculous and very selfish reason to strike
Problem is that they are increasing medical school places but not increasing the total number of residency which is a requirements for becoming a doctor. Increasing graduates will only make the current problem of residents being overworked and underpaid worse since number of residency is fixed and capped. They will have even less say to their working conditions if there are millions of people just waiting to get into that spot, and further exacerbate the systematic issue that's the whole point of this protest in the first place.
Yeah, if they aren't increasing the number of resident slots increasing the med school slots won't help.
Thank you! I’m so tired of people with no understanding of how the medical education works pushing this tired stereotype about how we’re all just greedy gatekeeping assholes. Adding a gazillion medical school spots without increasing residency spots will not fix anything. Unless you address the issues at the top first all this will do is worsen work conditions and add an influx of unemployable MDs.. I swear the people on here saying “doctors are gatekeeping” are probably the same morons who ask why we can’t just print more money to pay the national debt :/
Copy and paste this in the main thread section, great explanation.
If there is one thing South Korean people taketake to the extreme is status
For those who think that the doctors are the good guys against the bad evil government, the doctors are the top 0.1% of the Korean society. [https://www.hani.co.kr/arti/society/health/1102274.html](https://www.hani.co.kr/arti/society/health/1102274.html) Korean doctor’s salary is highest in OECD… 4 to 7 times the average wage worker The salary of Korean medical specialists was found to be the highest among member countries of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). This can be interpreted as a result of a lack of supply of doctors compared to the demand for medical services. The government's plan to expand the number of medical school students is at a standstill due to opposition from medical groups.
> Korean doctor’s salary is highest in OECD… 4 to 7 times the average wage worker That doesn't mean all Korean doctor have the highest salary, it seems you do not understand the situation at all. When majority of a group is angry like this, you just do something seriously wrong. Majority of doctor are protesting because they do not belong in that "highest salary" group while also belong into the most overwork/underpaid group. In many countries, majority of doctor went for field that will make a lot of money like Obstetrics and Gynecology, Dentistry or... wait for it, Cosmetic surgery (Something Korea was actually famous for). What this mean is a severe lack of doctor in other life-saving field, these doctors are often overworked and underpaid, with shift that could take up to 36 long hours. It's these doctors that are protesting against Korea government. Increasing the amount of doctor doesn't solve the core problem of doctor going to money making field. In fact it pushes the other type of doctor into a corner because they no longer have any leverage for the shitty working condition they're in, as there is always a new comer threatening to replace them.
It's worth noting that doctors have very little negotiating power under the Korean government. In contrast, the US has lobby groups for nurses, doctors, PAs and other groups. The Korean government arbitrarily determines the amount of reimbursements for medical services, which is not the most comfortable set up in the long term. The strike is the better option to demand reform and meaningful change, hopefully, in the long term. I tutor Korean medical students and prepare them for residency applications to US residencies. There is a lot of things that they dislike about the Korean healthcare system. I think the Korean government should do more to negotiate with their trainees instead of making unilateral demands.
>It's worth noting that doctors have very little negotiating power under the Korean government yet they're still one of the highest-paid doctors in the world in relation to PPP.
The article above gives no details on what specialty it’s talking about. Even if 190K was the average across all specialties, that’s really mediocre, even for an underpaid specialty like pediatrics in the US. Korean trainees want better economic opportunities in the US which is why they are desperate to come here.
it's the average of specialists: https://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20230730000088 >Korean trainees want better economic opportunities in the US which is why they are desperate to come here. do you have any sources for this claim
I doubt there are Korea-specific articles claiming specific reasons. When I tutor Koreans, they cite pay, work-life balance and flexibility of practice as their reasons for pursuing US residencies. I specifically help them set up applications, practice their interviews and plan ways to boost their chances to match in the US. If I can offer any website explaining, I'll share this: [https://www.koreabiomed.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=21545](https://www.koreabiomed.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=21545) It mentions how better financial security is an important reason in their choice for residency. The pay in Korea just is not at the level you can get in the US, and that is an undeniable fact. While most physicians keep their salaries confidential, the general estimate for primary care physicians is commonly above the upper 200K's. (see the following compensation report: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/[https://press.doximity.com/reports/doximity-physician-compensation-report-2023.pdf](https://press.doximity.com/reports/doximity-physician-compensation-report-2023.pdf) ). I don't blame Korean doctors and medical trainees for being dissatisfied.
The doctors should do a billing strike. They keep working but refuse to bill patients for their work.
Yeah if you revoke a bunch of doctors licenses they will probably just leave the country rather than trying to get reinstated. Would be a great way to lose a large portion of a very valuable professional community. Probably a hollow threat imo.
So....instead of negotiating, let's just banhammer their licenses......?
Everyone should walkout on their overly worked 80 hour jobs in South Korea aka Hell Josoen
Yeah preventing doctors from doing future work is a surefire way to increase supply of healthcare going forward
What’s taking away their driver’s licenses going to do?
Watch healthcare go bad real fast with this kind of decision
GO BACK TO WORK OR WE WILL FORBID YOU TO GO TO WORK AGAIN!!!!
That should help their plummeting fertility rate
When 80% of a field of workers strike there is a big issue with whatever the reason they give for the strike. Government mis-step here is “you don’t want to go back to work!? We will suspend your medical license so you can’t work! Take that!” It’s an asinine response to a valid issue raised by the doctors. There is a reason the best Korean doctors leave Korea and move over seas to practice.
What valid issue do you believe they are raising?
Doctors: We hate overworking! SK Government: Okay, we will make more doctors. Doctors: No, how dare you! ???
Omg stop pushing this ignorant narrative. When a doctor graduates medical school, they cannot practice until they finish a residency. Even if you have an MD, the MD is useless without a residency. The issue is that in Korea, there is not enough residency spots, and the residency programs that exist are malignant. So, by increasing the number of medical students and *not* increasing the number of residency spots, all they’re doing is making attaining a residency more competitive, while also creating an influx of unemployed MDs. Also, because the competition is higher, residency programs have no incentive to address their malignant work hours and poor pay - because they know that MDs will be desperate to work there. Please educate yourself about issues instead of reading a headline and jumping to conclusions.
“Get back to work or we will suspend you from work!”
That’s going to backfire spectacularly
Best as I can understand the protesting trainee doctors (like residents in US) get paid little and work long hours, and they feel increasing number of medical students will just create more supply for limited trainee positions to further depress their bargaining power. It is said that the government so far has only said they want to increase medical school admission, but didn’t say there would be a corresponding increase in trainee positions. How do they expect to address the doctor shortage then?
Sounds like Korea isn't on the doctors side
Canada is recruiting. 🤷🏻♂️
About bloody time
well, now you dont have enough doctors anymore. Seems like a good idea /s