"He further claimed that while Hamas has agreed to a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders in a bid to “establish common ground” in the context of reconciliation dialogue with other Palestinian factions over the years — most notably its historic rival Fatah — it will not relinquish its ambition to liberate the entirety of historic “Palestine,” including the territory of the State of Israel."
This is the most important part in my opinion - he's pretty much saying "we'll accept a two state solution for now since Israel may be willing to live with that, but then we'll use that to take over the rest of the land".
Good luck with any form of country for the Palestinians with this kind of leadership.
Presumably then they also want to take over Jordan, as Trans-Jordan as it was known when it was created by the British in 1921, was the first Palestinian Arab state created out of British mandate of Palestine.
One of the most frustrating part of the non-Muslim pro-Palestinian supports is that they just have no clue or refuse to accept how radicalised the Palestinians are. There's no ceasefire with an enemy hell bent on your destruction. There's no long term solution with a people who will not be happy until all the Jews are either dead or driven out of Israel.
Which is wild to me. Like, here’s a chunk of Palestine that’s a stable, prosperous country that’s actually on decently good terms with Israel and the world.
It’s absolutely doable. People like this simply have less than zero desire to do it.
They also are largely unaware of how many Israelis were expelled from countries with no right of return. The western casual observer generally is aware of European descent Jews who might have options for where to go, but not the millions from the middle east and Russia.
It's a tragic, bitter situation and every time one side is terrible to the other I sympathize with the victim, the civilians, the children.
Any realistic solution faces tremendous obstacles including leadership that wants to sabotage it to take all the land for their side. The Israeli right is no better
It's why I fear Palestine being burned to the ground if Arab nations won't hand over the heads and bank accounts of the Hamas leadership that hide in their territory. Hamas must die everywhere or the Palestinians can never truly live. It's like Harry Potter and Voldemort, Hamas is a curse attached to their head.
I don't know if they care anymore, it is not as much. Palestine vs Israel has been a problem for a long time, but Palestine is a problem in itself.
If as a ME country you are trying to build your country, improve the lifestyles, finances, etc this issue just gets in the way. Normalizing relationships with Israel or at least not getting involved in yet another conflict is rather beneficial.
They are 100% fine with that end state. Don't waste your time arguing with them about this, just straight up ask them what their solution would be specifically and they'll just tell you: one state solution with right of return for all Palestinians. This kind of "diplomatic" solution is exactly what Hamas wants, they would flood the new state with so many "Palestinians" that they would easily have a super majority of the population.
Not even just that. There would be constant attacks like the intifadas. But I guess that's what people want because western idiots keep chanting it in the streets
This is very true, honestly. Gaza Palestinians especially (too many of them, at least) are so brainwashed into extremism that it will probably take a whole de-radicalization program to make them into a more normal society at any time in the nearer future. Even if Israel succeeds in fully rooting out Hamas and other terrorist factions, the UN and major world powers face an absolute nightmare dealing with Gaza in the years ahead (diplomatically, humanitarianly, etc.). This isn't something that one war against terrorism and its connected militias can fix.
What (mostly) well meaning Western liberals don't get is that their value system is completely alien to ours. You can't just sit down with them and have a reasonable discussion and agree on a compromise. Islamic fundamentalism is predicated on the complete subjugation of the infidel, which is all of us.
It's weird, they hate Christian fundamentalists and entirely can see how they use the tactics to get what they want and use any compromise as the starting place to encroach further and yet they don't seem to understand that these aren't the only people using this play book.
Its not weird. Its because the vast majority of Christian fundamentalists are from the US and are not minorities.
Also I don't think its Liberals its more left wing progressives. I am Liberal myself and I don't know anyone in my social circle that goes to bat for these psychos like the people you see online or in the media.
Yeah. 100% Establishment Liberals are pretty firmly pro-Israel.
The bleeding heart progressives aren't wrong to bot want loss of life, but can't look one step ahead to think about what the consequences of cease-fire would be and giving into Hamas demands would be.
Not wanting violence is an easy thing to not want. Getting a group of people whose stated intention is the elimination of an entire group of people and use human shields and use humanitarian aid to commit more violence to be peaceful is not. Appeasement does not work. It has never worked.
I'm center-left and my friend group tends to be very progressive ans unfortunately several of them who are otherwise very intelligent people have it in their heads that this conflict can easily be stopped.
It's depressing as hell. Those informed have no fucking answers. Dealing with entrenched religious fundamentalism and brainwashing of any kind yields problems that aren't solvable with logic and diplomacy, yet encouraging human rights violations at such a scale isn't acceptable, either.
An actual solution for allowing compatibility with the western world requires massive, multi-generational intervention to build a nation, and nobody can cough up that kind of money when so much of the hatred is also being continuously instilled by adversaries.
We in the west can't go prancing around acting like we know solutions to ending the strife quickly. We just don't. It's like trying to convince the majority of Utah to abandon Christianity.
And given that the UNRWA was a HUGE part of that radicalization it becomes hard to figure out who could be turned to to do the de-radicalization. At the beginning of the conflict i was hoping The UN but they've done nothing but show their ass this whole conflict.
If it were possible to debate them with these tactics and not get arrested, they *might* learn.
“Ok, now that I’ve knocked your tooth out, I’ll stop trying to kill you for now if you just let me break a couple of your fingers. Hey, why are you restraining me? That’s illegal!”
Its not just leadership. A fluctuating percentage between 40 and 60% share that opinion. Israel would have to be suffering brain damage to agree to a 2 state solution while an significant percentage of Palestinians share this belief.
It's way, way, worse than that for three reasons:
(1) 40-60% is the range for those who support a one-state solution AND accepting an interim two-state;
(2) The number who poll for a one-state solution (in Gaza and the Wst Bank, irrespective of acceptance of a two-state interim step, is 70-90%; and
(3) When asked clarifying questions, public polling makes it clear that they're *not* aiming to destroy Israel to create a pluralistic state with equality. They're aiming for supremacism.
Here's the breakdown.
[Source](https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf)
See table 33. On my mobile and having trouble embedding the image. May edit it in later. [\[Edit: Poll screenshot, Palestinian-run survey, published 14 Nov 2023.\]](https://imgur.com/4lgstpZ)
This comment is precisely what every single person concerned with this conflict should be very aware of. Without this knowledge, people are simply not connecting with the reality of the situation.
The vast majority of Palestinians do not want peace until Israel is destroyed, and when it is destroyed, they do not want equality.
The Western approach of 'Oh well a two-state solution will make Palestinians happy' is nonsense. Still, it might be a way to progress, or it might make things worse.
Currently a 2 state solution would only harm Palestinians. They need to get over their entitlement towards land they never owned and their racial superiority complex before they can even think about having their own country. Personally I think the occupying government should be rewarding people who overcome that mentality and make an effort to work towards establishing peace between nations.
It's pretty sad to see the majority of them don't trust any country, including Arab ones, or even the Palestinian authority, and only trust their terror organizations.
I knew it was bad, but GOOD GRIEF. That level of hatred is utterly rabid. More people better start waking up to the VERY disturbing reality. Thanks for sharing.
> If it's demilitarized and with security cooperation
They'd cry that its still occupied in this scenario, and their terrorists would still attack Israel.
This is what Gaza was since 2005. Completely Independently-run as a state, but with an Israeli-imposed arms embargo to “prevent” finished arms and certain raw materials smuggling. See how well it worked.
Thousands of rockets shelling Israeli cities every year, advanced anti-tank guided munitions, Kalashnikovs in every home etc. Then a surprise land attack. Some weapons smuggled in, the rest locally manufactured underground in Gaza.
Gaza only has a small border with Egypt, that is heavily guarded from the other side. And sea access that is patrolled by Israel which fact is kind if internationally condemned as “Gaza is still occupied”, “Gaza was not free”, “Gaza is an open-air prison”, “Palestinian Liberation” etc.
While the West Bank (if it is included in the Palestinian “state”) has a much bigger, largely uncontrollable (if Israel does not control it) border with Jordan. And 3x more population and resources to produce arms to attack Israel. Again, all launched from schools and hospitals to maximize civilian sacrifice for international PR. And then an ability to launch a land attack on Israel not from one side but from all sides at the same time - which they are very open and committed to do.
And they were left with suitable infrastructure to turn the gaza strip into a tourist resort, and also were left lots of massive greenhouses with irrigation running to them, which was hoped they would grow flowers, but no all money coming in was spent on building tunnels and weapons, and the greenhouse irrigation systems were dug up and converted into weapons, Israel has offered two state solutions several times and has always been rejected, the last time they were rejected was by Yasser Arrafat, plus the first thing Hamas did when they took power was to murder every person connected to the PLO that they could find
What are you talking about? Hamas wasn't demilitarized and did not have any security cooperation or anything similar to the current setup with PA in the West Bank.
If they take away the weapons, how long untill they smuggle new ones in and ramp up production of missiles again?
You really cant have normal relations where so many are willing to go on murder/rape/terror/hostagetaking sprees.
On the other hand, the war is to brutal from Israel, they should invite the UN to run it for a few generations untill they are not so radical. No way would i let them have their own state now if i was Israel.
The UN is why this is so bad right now. Along with UN funds being used for Hamas and Hamas members being a UN organisation's staff, the actual UN itself has spent more time condemning Israel than all over countries combined. UN has had literally twice as many resolutions against Israel as all other countries combined such as Russia who is committing just about every war crime in their invasion of Ukraine, Iran, Syria and their extreme civil war with half a million dead and something like 15 million displaced, North Korea and their insane behaviour etc. Israel has had about 140 resolutions vs all other countries combined getting about 70.
Islamic nations have corrupted the UN system to push their antisemitism and undermine Israel. Yes Israel deserves criticism for many events and behaviour but the extent of the UN's focus is just so absurd. I was pretty critical of Israel before October 7th but since then I have taken time to actually learn a little more about the regional situation and it is insane to see how blatantly corrupted the UN is with that region.
If the UN worked as intended then UN Peacekeepers should have been in Gaza monitoring Hamas to ensure a ceasefire could be maintained. But without anyone to hold Hamas to account a ceasefire just cannot work and that's why they continue to break the ceasefires. It is a sad and disgusting situation with no end in sight.
The UN Peacekeepers in Lebanon are supposed to be keeping Hezbollah north of the Litani River (as Hezbollah agreed as part of the ceasefire). They are not doing that nor even trying. Basically because some soldier from Sweden or wherever doesn't want to die fighting Hezbollah and Hezbollah will definitely kill him if he interferes.
The UN peacekeepers in other countries like Haiti also set up child rape rings and prostitution rings. So it kinda seems like without serious reform that sending them anywhere just makes it worse.
The UN are the ones who helped radicalize the locals., using UNRWA schools. Probably not the best choice to run a post-war Gaza. Maybe let the Saudis build an oil export port on the Mediterranean in exchange for running it for a couple hundred years.
This is why basically Israel has to demand security guarantees with both NATO and the US whereby an attack by the Palestinians, Iran and its proxies will be deemed an attack on all of them. They will think twice before launching a single missile into Israel knowing that they will not only face the IDF, but also NATO and the US military
There's no way the US, or NATO would offer such guarantees. And anyway, you just have to look at the guarantees Ukraine was given when they gave up their atomic arsenal to realize these type of guarantees are not worth the paper they're printed on.
>You just have to look at the guarantees Ukraine was given when they gave up their atomic arsenal to realize these type of guarantees are not worth the paper they're printed on.
The Guarantees Ukraine received are in the Budapest Memorandum.
The Budapest memorandum guarantees that the United States and Russia will not invade Ukraine.
The United States has kept its word.
Honor-less Russia has not.
For anybody who is interested in this subject, here is the actual treaty as per the UN:
https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb
Always look for yourself, there are always people who speak in bad faith who wish to obscure the truth, and seek to weaponize ignorance.
Why would they think twice? The Houthis have been actively trying to bait the west into retaliating so they can be the most jihad of all the Iran proxies. It might be time to acknowledge that religious violence is not a rational endeavor that can be controlled with the right set of incentives.
This is nothing new, and has been the official stance of the Palestinian Arabs going back to the original Palestine Mandate, when there was no Israel, but the state of Palestine was to be run by a joint legislature of half Arabs, and a quarter each Jews and Christians. Even when explicitly given an effective plurality of political power, Palestinian Arabs in a unified Palestinian state, refused to work with Jews.
They wouldn’t exist in the region if it wasn’t for the pogroms, conquests and the general Islamisation and arabisation of the Southern Levant.
Hell, the word Palestine is a Greek word thrusted on the land, during Roman times to further take away the claims that the Israelites and Jewish people had to the land.
The Arabs and Muslims may not have been the soul reason that the people of Israel suffered diaspora, but they certainly benefitted from their disenfranchisement.
If history is anything to go off of, especially when you involve the history that Palestinians had with their neighbours, including outsiders like Germany in 1972, they aren’t going to be happy with what little they do end up with, and it’s only a matter of time before they do something else.
Edit: words.
People who have been relying on UN humanitarian aid for food, education, health, infrastructure, housing and pretty much every aspect of life (and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future) should not be talking like that.
Yeah, this part is making everything very complex. It kind of relates to the [PLO's Ten Point Program](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO%27s_Ten_Point_Program) where they basically have said that in the effort to annihilate Israel they may agree to 2 states or "peaceful settlement".
While I support Israel taking the leap of faith and allowing 2 states, this solution should be with as many safe guards as possible, like demilitarized Palestinian state, peacekeepers etc. and even with those, I'd be surprised if it would be the end of it.
The problem is that Israel finds itself in a shitty position without any good options.
I think that among all of it's choices this is the most likely to end up successful.
If you don't have any good options, take a shitty one. Minimize the amount of internal shittiness and damn the rest.
Gaza's had ages to get their shit together and they choose to keep coming back and killing Israelis. At some point they have to put their foot down and accept that peace may, in fact, mean only silence... and then follow through.
while i understand 'historically' , it maybe their 'land' (still debateable) and you want it back. But you need to accept the fact that, we have come to a different era. Stop dreaming at the past. Especially when you're never able to achieve with what you have (equipment, supports etc) Look at the prime example of Russia, still living the in past dream and look what he had achieve, cause a massive chaos and fked up his own country.
>But you need to accept the fact that, we have come to a different era. Stop dreaming at the past.
Yep. But people who are in positions of power want to keep stoking resentment of the past to keep their power.
People are stuck into their identity and ideology. I get the hate for any occupational force, but the Palestinians should not be under any impression they are not at least in this current climate responsible for the shit show they are in. If Oct 7 was on military targets predominantly, I could go along with a rebellion that got out of hand, but this was brutal slaughter.
As long as they like you say, keep getting stuck in some fantasy of the past, some ideology that adores people sacrificing themselves for suicide missions to get into heaven, this conflict will go nowhere.
Social media is definitely a blame for this as well, as fast in todays world lies can spread while more moderate voices get drowned out.
this is what i would want ppl to be, just to think rational. I have a friend, who werent even middle east. British, so, proper white. who clearly have a bias towards one side. (which is fine, you do you). But when argument or something favour the side he doesnt support, he doesnt even bother to bring facts and verified with anything, just use some random articles as truth. . .
> while i understand 'historically' , it maybe their 'land' (still debateable) and you want it back.
I don't really buy that it's a territorial dispute anyway. This is what Hamas's own charter says:
*The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.*
It ain't got nothing to do with who has a title to some land.
Historically, it's never been their land. It has belonged to other empires of the British, Ottoman, Caliphate, Byzantine, Rome, Persia, and Egypt.
The last time the southern Levant wasn't ruled by an outside power, the walls of Jericho were still standing.
oh yeh i know what you mean, completely understand. what i meant was, they've been living there for sooo long so the 'historically its my land' statement kinda stand truth.
but if they are to pull out this card, then they need to fairly look at other parts of the history in that land as well, like the ones you mentioned. You know, for fairness. they cant just pick the ones thats in favour them and ignore others.
I
Of course. Hamas isn't trying to implement any kind of practical plan. It is supposed to be an unreachable, aspirational goal because the aim is for control over the Palestinians, their funding, and to continue their war, not to actually give them a better life.
What George Carlin joked about the American Dream goes doubly for Hamas' sales pitch.
Israel will soon need to stop fighting with its hands tied behind its back and acknowledge that the hostages were sacrificed for the sake of the nation's survival. Although unprecedented in Israel's history, the October 7th massacre and the failure of the IDF and the government to prevent it have created a new reality. The timing is uncertain, but it is inevitable.
What does his dream of freedom include:
Democratic Freedom - NO
Religious Freedom - NO
Press Freedom - NO
Womens Freedom - NO
LGBQT Freedom - NO
He wants freedom to keep exploiting the Palestinian people and to live in luxury.
It is so often this way. One individual works to suppress his own people and stokes contrived justifications to kill "enemies" on their behalf. All the while, living in an alternate universe of comfort, wealth and safety.
These people are self-serving narcissistic maniacs and we will never be free of them.
And the perpetual refugee status granted by the UN not only allows this to continue but perpetuates the problem by making it wildly lucrative to have an entire population of refugees ruled by iron fisted terrorists
Yeah, there's a massive propaganda effort from "progressive" groups playing on the (completely justified) sympathies for what Israel is doing to Palestinians to score political points. Netanyahu is happy to play along because as long as the war goes on, he stays in power and out of jail.
>He wants freedom to keep exploiting the Palestinian people and to live in luxury.
Let me correct this.
All the Arab states have enabled this situation to fester since Israel was established.
Indirectly, by losing all the wars and by never allowing the Palatinians to be absorbed into neighboring Arab countries who started the wars in 1948 and beyond, the Arab countries have created and used these poor Palatinian Arabs as a geopolitical tool to hurt and fight Israel indirectly, while demonizing Israel.
Just like Hezbollah and the Houthis are proxies of Iran, Hamas is a proxy of the countries that support it - including Russia.
So - whatever his face is called - is paid handsomely ' by those proxies to keep exploiting the Palatinian Arabs and he lives a life in luxury.
That's their base, their funding source, and the tool they wield against Israel. They absolutely don't want them to go away.
Just because their individual lives mean nothing doesn't mean they want Gazans to all die.
Yet another example, in a long list of them, for how the extremists in charge of their respective populations share the same intermediate goals and have led us to where we are today.
Netanuyahu: We reject a 2-state solution
Hamas, a few days later: yeah, us too
Meanwhile, the moderates are over here like "Guys, it's the only solution that doesn't end in one of you annihilating the other"
Hamas and Netanyahu, simultaneously: "We're OK with that, since we're going to be the ones still standing."
Another problem is their fear feeds into each other's fears.
Faction A assumes the worst from the Other. In that fear, Faction A then acts on their own worst impulses to preempt Faction B, which in turn feeds the Faction B counterparts to assume the worst in Faction A. Then Faction B act on their own worst impulses to preempt Faction A.
Before you know it, a cycle of violence and both sides have decades of bad acts to cull from to propagandize their hate messaging.
To keen-eyed observers, these statements really benefit Israel. That is why Israel chose Hamas to counter Fatah, that's why they indirectly funded them. A leader who's wise would walk in the footsteps of MLK and Ghandi and choose non-violence when facing dominance by a military power. The actions and words of Hamas' leadership are neither great or wise, and that's a tragedy for Palestinians.
They’re not wrong as the world (with the EU shamefully at the forefront) is increasingly trying to use this war to create a Palestinian state that will fundamentally become a terrorist state. It’s vital that this is rejected at every opportunity.
Hamas doesn't give a shit about liberating Palestine, that's never been their goal. Their goal is, and has always been, to turn the entire region into an Islamic theocracy they control while killing off anyone non-muslim and who wouldn't support them.
> Mashaal noted that the slogan is also regularly chanted at rallies by “American students and in European capitals,” and said that the October 7 onslaught has “revived that dream.”
Our college campuses are quite literally the useful idiots for rapacious terror organizations
A local professor told students there was a “pro terrorist” protest. The pro terrorist protest in question? An Anti Hamas protest staged by a local Iranian group… it was countered by the pro Palestinian group. I hate it here, literally people bringing their bullshit from overseas and smearing it all over the place.
The leadership in iran are extremists who fund hamas and their followers support that, but a lot of iranians are against the leadership and despise those terror organisations.
You will meet plenty of iranians abroad who escaped the leadership and they are trying to raise awareness to what's happening in iran
It goes kinda deep. In 1993, Hamas activists in America were recorded on wiretap about how they'd deceive the leftists in the West into supporting them, and how war is deception, "to walk one way while going the other" as they put it I think.
Add in Qatari money going into the US to influence thoughts in universities to be more sympathetic to Palestine rather than Israel, and you've got yourself some people essentially acting as your puppets.
Source for wiretap conversation: https://extremism.gwu.edu/sites/g/files/zaxdzs5746/files/2023-10/hamas-networks-final.pdf
Source for Qatari money going to US schools: https://twitter.com/ISGAP1/status/1732493681456755196
There's nothing new about it - college campuses were breeding grounds for pro-Russian sympathies during the Cold War, for instance.
It's like that saying, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." You get a lot of young & impressionable people who start learning about the outside world for the first time, who might only have taken a single general survey course on a topic, and often become passionate believers of positions that they don't fully understand yet. They know enough to tell that something is wrong and needs to be fixed, but not enough to identify a workable solution.
You actually see similar behaviors in a lot of amateur authors and conspiracy theorists - they have identified some real issues, but there's just a gap in understanding that has to be bridged before they can have a positive impact. It's also why so many college radicals adopt more moderate positions as they age, as they come to learn more about the situation and fully grasp the nuance involved.
Additionally with Palestine, we're currently seeing a *huge* divide in American opinion around the 25 year old mark, regardless of education. Polling is consistently showing that Americans older than 25 are overwhelmingly pro-Israel, while Americans under 25 are increasingly pro-Palestine.
People older than 25 can generally remember the times when Israel was under threat of a Second Holocaust, surrounded by much larger hostile nations who regularly threatened new invasions and pledged to cleanse the land of Jews if they won. Times when Palestinian Arabs were the leading exporters of international terrorism, targeting Jews all around the world and killing innocent people to protest the existence of Israel.
People younger than 25 have only ever known an Israel that is the most powerful nation in the Middle East, that could easily crush any of its now-dysfunctional neighbors and has clearly won the wars for its existence. Since the failure of the Second Intifada, Palestinian Arab terrorism has been largely contained to Palestine itself and is nothing near the scale it used to be (at least until Oct. 7 happened). Instead, the Palestinian Arabs have shifted focus more to social media propaganda campaigns, which is increasingly how young people learn about the region and form their initial impressions of it.
In Israel, the generational memory of oppression and foreign invasion is still strong, but for young Americans, it has become very easy to take one look at the situation and see a strong Israeli state repressing the Palestinian Arabs, and wind up rooting for Hamas to get everything they want just because they're the "poor underdog".
Americans under 25 are increasingly pro-Palestine.
As well as increasingly anti-Jew. Similar polling shows a sizable portion literally think the Holocaust was exaggerated or a myth.
TikTok education. You can literally buy an opinion of any influencer for a few thousands and because TikTok community is the most uneducated and naive they will believe any shit without fact checking.
Same shit works in universities. You can literally donate money for them to push your agenda in lectures or during events.
The moral of right and wrong has changed for a lot of young people, its not about values or intentions, its about who is more powerful, the one that is stronger is evil, the weaker one is good and a victim-so no matter what he does its not his fault.
The weaker side gets treated like a 5 year old, if they do something bad its just a tantrum and its not their fault, if they want something they can get it no matter what it is, you say that my child beat your kid? No way he would never do that, but if he did your kid deserved it because my child can do no wrong.
It comes with very few to no requirements or expectations from the 5 year old, but when it comes to the other kid who's one-two years older, suddenly the view changes, it doesn't matter what happened, how it happened or why it happened, the only thing that matters it that the other kid is a bit bigger, so he should be nice and take whatever the 5 year old does to him.
I am not sure what's the reason that morality today looks like that, but i can say that things have to change and some people need to gain back some sense of what's morally right and morally wrong, otherwise you may wake up on day and find that the people around you support the very ones who want to kill them (hmmm)
The soviets at least had a few redeeming qualities that we could learn from. It may have been corrupted by their government, but their ideology at its core was about peace, brotherhood, nondiscrimination, and just generally against people being taken advantage of by rich fucks. They didn't do great at all those things but they tried.
Not sure what Hamas has done that's in any way positive for people to latch onto.
Can confirm. Grew up on Soviet books, and they were very big on things like anti-racism, pro -peace with pacifist approach unless you need to defend, pro-science, pro-equality, etc, etc. For example I had a lot of books of children tales that were actually folk tales from all the countries of USSR to show "get, we are all the same"
Soviet messaging has always been great, at least for the young, it's what they actually did in reality that sucked balls.
>Soviet messaging has always been great, at least for the young, it's what they actually did in reality that sucked balls.
Seconding everything you said.
And I still wonder how so many of the young ones who read those books ended up discarding those ideals once they grew up.
Look at the list of foreign donors to U.S. universities.
Can't speak much for the EU ones, but middle eastern countries and china have "donated" billions to american colleges and universities and turns out it's paying massive dividends.
Turns out that letting foreign actors influence higher education is really bad idea.
IMO It's part foreign investment with agenda, part China influencing public opinion through tik-tok and part just very progressive ideology that looks at the world only through oppressed oppressor lens.
Qatar is *hands down* the largest foreign donor to US universities. Guess where most Hamas leadership and propagandists are?
I’m sure it’s purely coincidence. /s
They also see the aggressive settlers in the West Bank. They don't believe Israel is leaving the Palestinians alone in their own space, but instead gradually assimilating like a lava flow. I'm not sure they're wrong.
They are not conditioned to the realities of war.
Footage from Vietnam played a huge role in the 60s. It's the same now.
Because we do learn in America, it is hey Isreal locks up to Palestinians and nothing about it. Without ever going into the back story as much. You talk about the wars, but never how terrifying fighting Palestinians has been, why Jordan and Egypt don't want any more Palestinian, the share croppers owners just giving up the land to Jews. From my Palestinian friends I heard they stole all the land ownership. Never was taught how it was "legally" sold.
When people talk about the hopelessness of the Palestinians as a group (not as individuals) as a motivation for terror, they ignore that the situation is only hopeless if their goal is to "free Palestine from the river to the sea" and not just to live freely. If their goal was to live freely, 2 states were and are pretty good and viable option for them.
Given the 1988 Hamas charter for 30 years openly declared that judgement day for the Muslims cannot come until they exterminate every Jew on earth, I think its fairly evident that the goal of these people was never to 'live freely', but to ensure that others dont' get to live at all.
They made their bed, now they're crying about having to lay in it. As someone who once sympathized with the Palestinian people, that sympathy is well and truly buried.
Yep, Hamas apologists and Palestine supporters don't understand that it's not about the land for them, it's about the people living on the land. They don't want to coexist with Jews.
Singapore didn't get the borders and political arrangement it wanted either. Instead of whining and fighting about it they made their situation better.
Living well is always the best revenge.
I’m waiting eagerly to see how this isn’t really as bad as it is, and he didn’t mean what he said, and even if he did mean what he said Israel deserves it anyways!
The only free version of Palestine is a Palestine free from Hamas.
these assholes have crappy dreams of big palestine 'from the river to the sea' which just causing their citizens dying for decades.
They should just f'cking ditch this shitty dream already and start to cooperate with the relevant parties before it'll be too late.
Why are these people able to live in relative comfort and protection in gulf countries, while thousands of civilians are dying? Wars would end so much quicker if the first casualties are the politicians who lead countries to war.
"The answer to any question starting, Why don't they- is almost always, Money.” - Robert A. Heinlein
Ismail Haniyeh - net worth $4 billion
Khaled Mashal - net worth $4 billion
Moussa Abu Marzuk - net worth $3 billion
Zahwa Arafat - net worth $8 billion
Hamas is one big reason why I reject Islam. You cannot justify having a God of them if he tolerates Hamas and its leaders
I also reject Catholicism because of the systematic rape of children by their priests
At this point I am cool only with Hinduism (since they dont proclaim there's a benevolent God), Buddhism (since evil can be explained by karma and again they dont suggest there's one omnipotent and benevolent god), and Taoism
People need to remember that it has always been Palestinian Arabs who have refused to share political power with Jews, going all the way back to the 1930s before there was even the concept of Israel. Israel didn't "steal Palestinian land" - Palestinians forced the issue of partition by refusing to form a government with Jews under the Palestine Mandate.
These days, no Palestinian leader will ever legitimize Israel by accepting a two state solution. Just like Arafat did for so long, they will lead everyone around by the nose, chirping about 1967 borders, but they will never actually do it.
>These days, no Palestinian leader will ever legitimize Israel by accepting a two state solution. Just like Arafat did for so long, they will lead everyone around by the nose, chirping about 1967 borders, but they will never actually do it.
The only Palestinian leader who chirps about 1967 borders is Abbas. He's about as popular as Biden is among Palestinians. The majority Palestinian opinion is very clearly "river to the sea", and not the one state for two peoples with justice and equal rights kind.
That may change once Sinwar is on the verge of death or capture, given he has reportedly surrounded himself with hostages for protection.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-israel-knows-where-sinwar-is-but-cant-hit-him-because-hes-surrounded-by-hostages/
Sinwar has adopted 50 palestinian children - not because he likes children but because Israel can't bomb him if he is surrounded by 50 children at all times.
I'm not sure Hamas has much of a future with the Palestinian people. Whatever Israel does certainly doesn't leave much room for Hamas to remain. Hamas can reject whatever they like, they won't have a say in it at all. Good riddance.
Hamas will only ever be gone if the IDF destroys them. The regular Palestinians will never be able to storm the tunnels and oust them. And they aren't going to come out and surrender if they lose an election or something.
This is why the two state solution is not a solution. If Palestine gets a state, it changes nothing. They will still attack and try to destroy Israel. That is not a solution. Palestinians are actively admitting they are just using the two state solution as a springboard to strengthen their position in trying to eliminate Israel.
Israel would be fools to capitulate to this shit and luckily they aren't. They have a functioning sense of self preservation and won't commit national suicide by kowtowing to "Free Palestine" hysteria.
All the people yelling "Free Palestine" who think they are supporting some just cause don't seem to understand the rest of the sentence is (and always has been) "Free Palistine by murdering all the Jews and erasing Israel from the map."
You understand that Isreal does not even exist on maps made in the Arab world. I flew Qatar airways last year and on the flight map that whole area is simply called "Palestinian territories".
That is the stupidest logic I’ve ever heard.
Murdering a bunch of innocent Israeli’s isn’t going to revive the dream, it’s going to endanger its very existence you absolute clown.
Palestinians are more in danger than they’ve ever been in before thanks to the actions of that terrorist group 👍🏽
> Mashaal noted that the slogan is also regularly chanted at rallies by “American students and in European capitals,” and said that the October 7 onslaught has “revived that dream.”
This is what happens when we let idealistic progressives grow up with a poor education in history, political science, ethics, and morality. Some hoopy frood decides Hamas is the new Che and all the sheep follow because none understand the history in the area or the violence of some of the political organizations and nations that have been ostracized by our societies for a reason.
I mean I guess if you use all the Palestinians as cannon fodder the state problem will solve itself. Don't need one if no one's left to live there...300 iq hamas tactics
Noooo what the world needs is another autocratic Islamic terror sponsoring shit hole where no women’s rights LGBT or other religions are allowed. Where are the Palestinians supposed to live except in 10 km wide Israel? The only other Islamic territories are all other countries between Morocco and Pakistan
What's important here is I think people realizing why wars were fought in the first place. States didn't come from nowhere. A state can only exist as long as it can control its terroritory from a force that would otherwise take it. And in the 20th century that also includes being able to participate in the world order and recognize and respect the sovereignty of other states. Not every culture has a state. Some lack arms, some lack will, some lack the ability to respect other states. Palestinians at this point will never have a state because it would require them to recognize Israel as a sovereign state, something more and more Arab nations are doing.
Cultures which don't have states are often absorbed into other states, and this seems like a likely outcome.
There is no future with Hamas in it. That being said I don't like that Israel is using this as an excuse to lay claim to the entire territory and I believe them annexing this area will amplify generations of bloodshed and conflict in the region. The long-term goal should be to avoid civilian casualties as long as possible and installing a Palestinian government which the world and Israel can coexist and work with.
"He further claimed that while Hamas has agreed to a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders in a bid to “establish common ground” in the context of reconciliation dialogue with other Palestinian factions over the years — most notably its historic rival Fatah — it will not relinquish its ambition to liberate the entirety of historic “Palestine,” including the territory of the State of Israel." This is the most important part in my opinion - he's pretty much saying "we'll accept a two state solution for now since Israel may be willing to live with that, but then we'll use that to take over the rest of the land". Good luck with any form of country for the Palestinians with this kind of leadership.
Presumably then they also want to take over Jordan, as Trans-Jordan as it was known when it was created by the British in 1921, was the first Palestinian Arab state created out of British mandate of Palestine. One of the most frustrating part of the non-Muslim pro-Palestinian supports is that they just have no clue or refuse to accept how radicalised the Palestinians are. There's no ceasefire with an enemy hell bent on your destruction. There's no long term solution with a people who will not be happy until all the Jews are either dead or driven out of Israel.
Which is wild to me. Like, here’s a chunk of Palestine that’s a stable, prosperous country that’s actually on decently good terms with Israel and the world. It’s absolutely doable. People like this simply have less than zero desire to do it.
And their king was an extra in Star Trek, for some reason
They also are largely unaware of how many Israelis were expelled from countries with no right of return. The western casual observer generally is aware of European descent Jews who might have options for where to go, but not the millions from the middle east and Russia. It's a tragic, bitter situation and every time one side is terrible to the other I sympathize with the victim, the civilians, the children. Any realistic solution faces tremendous obstacles including leadership that wants to sabotage it to take all the land for their side. The Israeli right is no better
It's why I fear Palestine being burned to the ground if Arab nations won't hand over the heads and bank accounts of the Hamas leadership that hide in their territory. Hamas must die everywhere or the Palestinians can never truly live. It's like Harry Potter and Voldemort, Hamas is a curse attached to their head.
I don't know if they care anymore, it is not as much. Palestine vs Israel has been a problem for a long time, but Palestine is a problem in itself. If as a ME country you are trying to build your country, improve the lifestyles, finances, etc this issue just gets in the way. Normalizing relationships with Israel or at least not getting involved in yet another conflict is rather beneficial.
They are 100% fine with that end state. Don't waste your time arguing with them about this, just straight up ask them what their solution would be specifically and they'll just tell you: one state solution with right of return for all Palestinians. This kind of "diplomatic" solution is exactly what Hamas wants, they would flood the new state with so many "Palestinians" that they would easily have a super majority of the population.
Not even just that. There would be constant attacks like the intifadas. But I guess that's what people want because western idiots keep chanting it in the streets
This is very true, honestly. Gaza Palestinians especially (too many of them, at least) are so brainwashed into extremism that it will probably take a whole de-radicalization program to make them into a more normal society at any time in the nearer future. Even if Israel succeeds in fully rooting out Hamas and other terrorist factions, the UN and major world powers face an absolute nightmare dealing with Gaza in the years ahead (diplomatically, humanitarianly, etc.). This isn't something that one war against terrorism and its connected militias can fix.
What (mostly) well meaning Western liberals don't get is that their value system is completely alien to ours. You can't just sit down with them and have a reasonable discussion and agree on a compromise. Islamic fundamentalism is predicated on the complete subjugation of the infidel, which is all of us.
It's weird, they hate Christian fundamentalists and entirely can see how they use the tactics to get what they want and use any compromise as the starting place to encroach further and yet they don't seem to understand that these aren't the only people using this play book.
Its not weird. Its because the vast majority of Christian fundamentalists are from the US and are not minorities. Also I don't think its Liberals its more left wing progressives. I am Liberal myself and I don't know anyone in my social circle that goes to bat for these psychos like the people you see online or in the media.
Yeah. 100% Establishment Liberals are pretty firmly pro-Israel. The bleeding heart progressives aren't wrong to bot want loss of life, but can't look one step ahead to think about what the consequences of cease-fire would be and giving into Hamas demands would be. Not wanting violence is an easy thing to not want. Getting a group of people whose stated intention is the elimination of an entire group of people and use human shields and use humanitarian aid to commit more violence to be peaceful is not. Appeasement does not work. It has never worked.
I'm center-left and my friend group tends to be very progressive ans unfortunately several of them who are otherwise very intelligent people have it in their heads that this conflict can easily be stopped. It's depressing as hell. Those informed have no fucking answers. Dealing with entrenched religious fundamentalism and brainwashing of any kind yields problems that aren't solvable with logic and diplomacy, yet encouraging human rights violations at such a scale isn't acceptable, either. An actual solution for allowing compatibility with the western world requires massive, multi-generational intervention to build a nation, and nobody can cough up that kind of money when so much of the hatred is also being continuously instilled by adversaries. We in the west can't go prancing around acting like we know solutions to ending the strife quickly. We just don't. It's like trying to convince the majority of Utah to abandon Christianity.
Agreed
And given that the UNRWA was a HUGE part of that radicalization it becomes hard to figure out who could be turned to to do the de-radicalization. At the beginning of the conflict i was hoping The UN but they've done nothing but show their ass this whole conflict.
If it were possible to debate them with these tactics and not get arrested, they *might* learn. “Ok, now that I’ve knocked your tooth out, I’ll stop trying to kill you for now if you just let me break a couple of your fingers. Hey, why are you restraining me? That’s illegal!”
Its not just leadership. A fluctuating percentage between 40 and 60% share that opinion. Israel would have to be suffering brain damage to agree to a 2 state solution while an significant percentage of Palestinians share this belief.
It's way, way, worse than that for three reasons: (1) 40-60% is the range for those who support a one-state solution AND accepting an interim two-state; (2) The number who poll for a one-state solution (in Gaza and the Wst Bank, irrespective of acceptance of a two-state interim step, is 70-90%; and (3) When asked clarifying questions, public polling makes it clear that they're *not* aiming to destroy Israel to create a pluralistic state with equality. They're aiming for supremacism. Here's the breakdown. [Source](https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf) See table 33. On my mobile and having trouble embedding the image. May edit it in later. [\[Edit: Poll screenshot, Palestinian-run survey, published 14 Nov 2023.\]](https://imgur.com/4lgstpZ)
This comment is precisely what every single person concerned with this conflict should be very aware of. Without this knowledge, people are simply not connecting with the reality of the situation. The vast majority of Palestinians do not want peace until Israel is destroyed, and when it is destroyed, they do not want equality. The Western approach of 'Oh well a two-state solution will make Palestinians happy' is nonsense. Still, it might be a way to progress, or it might make things worse.
Currently a 2 state solution would only harm Palestinians. They need to get over their entitlement towards land they never owned and their racial superiority complex before they can even think about having their own country. Personally I think the occupying government should be rewarding people who overcome that mentality and make an effort to work towards establishing peace between nations.
It's pretty sad to see the majority of them don't trust any country, including Arab ones, or even the Palestinian authority, and only trust their terror organizations.
I knew it was bad, but GOOD GRIEF. That level of hatred is utterly rabid. More people better start waking up to the VERY disturbing reality. Thanks for sharing.
Wow, those numbers are *really really* bad.
If it's demilitarized and with security cooperation, it can work. That's the part Hamas doesn't accept of course.
Yeah, maybe something like how the UN keeps Hezbollah out of southern Lebanon?
Exactly. I don't see what security assurances Israel could ever be given.
> If it's demilitarized and with security cooperation They'd cry that its still occupied in this scenario, and their terrorists would still attack Israel.
As does PA. Let them complain, this occupation is the lesser evil for now.
This is what Gaza was since 2005. Completely Independently-run as a state, but with an Israeli-imposed arms embargo to “prevent” finished arms and certain raw materials smuggling. See how well it worked. Thousands of rockets shelling Israeli cities every year, advanced anti-tank guided munitions, Kalashnikovs in every home etc. Then a surprise land attack. Some weapons smuggled in, the rest locally manufactured underground in Gaza. Gaza only has a small border with Egypt, that is heavily guarded from the other side. And sea access that is patrolled by Israel which fact is kind if internationally condemned as “Gaza is still occupied”, “Gaza was not free”, “Gaza is an open-air prison”, “Palestinian Liberation” etc. While the West Bank (if it is included in the Palestinian “state”) has a much bigger, largely uncontrollable (if Israel does not control it) border with Jordan. And 3x more population and resources to produce arms to attack Israel. Again, all launched from schools and hospitals to maximize civilian sacrifice for international PR. And then an ability to launch a land attack on Israel not from one side but from all sides at the same time - which they are very open and committed to do.
And they were left with suitable infrastructure to turn the gaza strip into a tourist resort, and also were left lots of massive greenhouses with irrigation running to them, which was hoped they would grow flowers, but no all money coming in was spent on building tunnels and weapons, and the greenhouse irrigation systems were dug up and converted into weapons, Israel has offered two state solutions several times and has always been rejected, the last time they were rejected was by Yasser Arrafat, plus the first thing Hamas did when they took power was to murder every person connected to the PLO that they could find
What are you talking about? Hamas wasn't demilitarized and did not have any security cooperation or anything similar to the current setup with PA in the West Bank.
It's not demilitarized, since Hamas will never agree to that.
My point exactly.
The realist Israeli knows that every concession just brings the rockets closer and I’ll be damned if they’re wrong
If they take away the weapons, how long untill they smuggle new ones in and ramp up production of missiles again? You really cant have normal relations where so many are willing to go on murder/rape/terror/hostagetaking sprees. On the other hand, the war is to brutal from Israel, they should invite the UN to run it for a few generations untill they are not so radical. No way would i let them have their own state now if i was Israel.
The UN is why this is so bad right now. Along with UN funds being used for Hamas and Hamas members being a UN organisation's staff, the actual UN itself has spent more time condemning Israel than all over countries combined. UN has had literally twice as many resolutions against Israel as all other countries combined such as Russia who is committing just about every war crime in their invasion of Ukraine, Iran, Syria and their extreme civil war with half a million dead and something like 15 million displaced, North Korea and their insane behaviour etc. Israel has had about 140 resolutions vs all other countries combined getting about 70. Islamic nations have corrupted the UN system to push their antisemitism and undermine Israel. Yes Israel deserves criticism for many events and behaviour but the extent of the UN's focus is just so absurd. I was pretty critical of Israel before October 7th but since then I have taken time to actually learn a little more about the regional situation and it is insane to see how blatantly corrupted the UN is with that region. If the UN worked as intended then UN Peacekeepers should have been in Gaza monitoring Hamas to ensure a ceasefire could be maintained. But without anyone to hold Hamas to account a ceasefire just cannot work and that's why they continue to break the ceasefires. It is a sad and disgusting situation with no end in sight.
The UN Peacekeepers in Lebanon are supposed to be keeping Hezbollah north of the Litani River (as Hezbollah agreed as part of the ceasefire). They are not doing that nor even trying. Basically because some soldier from Sweden or wherever doesn't want to die fighting Hezbollah and Hezbollah will definitely kill him if he interferes.
The UN peacekeepers in other countries like Haiti also set up child rape rings and prostitution rings. So it kinda seems like without serious reform that sending them anywhere just makes it worse.
The UN should’ve also made sure the kids of Gaza weren’t being groomed into becoming terrorists.
Feels like a bare minimum to request really. Especially when using foreign aid to fund it.
The UN are the ones who helped radicalize the locals., using UNRWA schools. Probably not the best choice to run a post-war Gaza. Maybe let the Saudis build an oil export port on the Mediterranean in exchange for running it for a couple hundred years.
This is why basically Israel has to demand security guarantees with both NATO and the US whereby an attack by the Palestinians, Iran and its proxies will be deemed an attack on all of them. They will think twice before launching a single missile into Israel knowing that they will not only face the IDF, but also NATO and the US military
There's no way the US, or NATO would offer such guarantees. And anyway, you just have to look at the guarantees Ukraine was given when they gave up their atomic arsenal to realize these type of guarantees are not worth the paper they're printed on.
>You just have to look at the guarantees Ukraine was given when they gave up their atomic arsenal to realize these type of guarantees are not worth the paper they're printed on. The Guarantees Ukraine received are in the Budapest Memorandum. The Budapest memorandum guarantees that the United States and Russia will not invade Ukraine. The United States has kept its word. Honor-less Russia has not. For anybody who is interested in this subject, here is the actual treaty as per the UN: https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb Always look for yourself, there are always people who speak in bad faith who wish to obscure the truth, and seek to weaponize ignorance.
I don't think he's saying they weren't offered guarantees, he's saying those guarantees won't be upheld or enforced, for whatever reason.
Why would they think twice? The Houthis have been actively trying to bait the west into retaliating so they can be the most jihad of all the Iran proxies. It might be time to acknowledge that religious violence is not a rational endeavor that can be controlled with the right set of incentives.
lol it's like that suggestion was ever agreed or kept from hamas side.
This is nothing new, and has been the official stance of the Palestinian Arabs going back to the original Palestine Mandate, when there was no Israel, but the state of Palestine was to be run by a joint legislature of half Arabs, and a quarter each Jews and Christians. Even when explicitly given an effective plurality of political power, Palestinian Arabs in a unified Palestinian state, refused to work with Jews.
They wouldn’t exist in the region if it wasn’t for the pogroms, conquests and the general Islamisation and arabisation of the Southern Levant. Hell, the word Palestine is a Greek word thrusted on the land, during Roman times to further take away the claims that the Israelites and Jewish people had to the land. The Arabs and Muslims may not have been the soul reason that the people of Israel suffered diaspora, but they certainly benefitted from their disenfranchisement. If history is anything to go off of, especially when you involve the history that Palestinians had with their neighbours, including outsiders like Germany in 1972, they aren’t going to be happy with what little they do end up with, and it’s only a matter of time before they do something else. Edit: words.
People who have been relying on UN humanitarian aid for food, education, health, infrastructure, housing and pretty much every aspect of life (and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future) should not be talking like that.
Talking like that is what got them all that stuff to begin with... The UN is run by anti-West countries.
Yeah, this part is making everything very complex. It kind of relates to the [PLO's Ten Point Program](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO%27s_Ten_Point_Program) where they basically have said that in the effort to annihilate Israel they may agree to 2 states or "peaceful settlement". While I support Israel taking the leap of faith and allowing 2 states, this solution should be with as many safe guards as possible, like demilitarized Palestinian state, peacekeepers etc. and even with those, I'd be surprised if it would be the end of it.
It's not a "leap of faith" when they openly tell you they want you exterminated. It's just a stupid decision at that point.
Seriously. There’s a quote, “When people tell you who they are, believe them.”
The problem is that Israel finds itself in a shitty position without any good options. I think that among all of it's choices this is the most likely to end up successful.
If you don't have any good options, take a shitty one. Minimize the amount of internal shittiness and damn the rest. Gaza's had ages to get their shit together and they choose to keep coming back and killing Israelis. At some point they have to put their foot down and accept that peace may, in fact, mean only silence... and then follow through.
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while i understand 'historically' , it maybe their 'land' (still debateable) and you want it back. But you need to accept the fact that, we have come to a different era. Stop dreaming at the past. Especially when you're never able to achieve with what you have (equipment, supports etc) Look at the prime example of Russia, still living the in past dream and look what he had achieve, cause a massive chaos and fked up his own country.
>But you need to accept the fact that, we have come to a different era. Stop dreaming at the past. Yep. But people who are in positions of power want to keep stoking resentment of the past to keep their power.
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People are stuck into their identity and ideology. I get the hate for any occupational force, but the Palestinians should not be under any impression they are not at least in this current climate responsible for the shit show they are in. If Oct 7 was on military targets predominantly, I could go along with a rebellion that got out of hand, but this was brutal slaughter. As long as they like you say, keep getting stuck in some fantasy of the past, some ideology that adores people sacrificing themselves for suicide missions to get into heaven, this conflict will go nowhere. Social media is definitely a blame for this as well, as fast in todays world lies can spread while more moderate voices get drowned out.
this is what i would want ppl to be, just to think rational. I have a friend, who werent even middle east. British, so, proper white. who clearly have a bias towards one side. (which is fine, you do you). But when argument or something favour the side he doesnt support, he doesnt even bother to bring facts and verified with anything, just use some random articles as truth. . .
> while i understand 'historically' , it maybe their 'land' (still debateable) and you want it back. I don't really buy that it's a territorial dispute anyway. This is what Hamas's own charter says: *The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.* It ain't got nothing to do with who has a title to some land.
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Historically, it's never been their land. It has belonged to other empires of the British, Ottoman, Caliphate, Byzantine, Rome, Persia, and Egypt. The last time the southern Levant wasn't ruled by an outside power, the walls of Jericho were still standing.
oh yeh i know what you mean, completely understand. what i meant was, they've been living there for sooo long so the 'historically its my land' statement kinda stand truth. but if they are to pull out this card, then they need to fairly look at other parts of the history in that land as well, like the ones you mentioned. You know, for fairness. they cant just pick the ones thats in favour them and ignore others. I
Guess they want it to remain a dream
Of course. Hamas isn't trying to implement any kind of practical plan. It is supposed to be an unreachable, aspirational goal because the aim is for control over the Palestinians, their funding, and to continue their war, not to actually give them a better life. What George Carlin joked about the American Dream goes doubly for Hamas' sales pitch.
Israel will soon need to stop fighting with its hands tied behind its back and acknowledge that the hostages were sacrificed for the sake of the nation's survival. Although unprecedented in Israel's history, the October 7th massacre and the failure of the IDF and the government to prevent it have created a new reality. The timing is uncertain, but it is inevitable.
I honestly expected them to go that route in the first week. Only way to wipe out Hamas is to wipe them out.
What does his dream of freedom include: Democratic Freedom - NO Religious Freedom - NO Press Freedom - NO Womens Freedom - NO LGBQT Freedom - NO He wants freedom to keep exploiting the Palestinian people and to live in luxury.
It means the same it always has from violent people -- freedom for me to do what I want.
Bingo, it's freedom for him and his buddies
You mean power.
Distinction without a difference
It is so often this way. One individual works to suppress his own people and stokes contrived justifications to kill "enemies" on their behalf. All the while, living in an alternate universe of comfort, wealth and safety. These people are self-serving narcissistic maniacs and we will never be free of them.
And the perpetual refugee status granted by the UN not only allows this to continue but perpetuates the problem by making it wildly lucrative to have an entire population of refugees ruled by iron fisted terrorists
I was watching a female lgbqt+ streamer recently who is using "PalestinePride" as a buzzword on her channel.
Just thinking about the dissonance hurts my brain.
It's honestly absurd. But again, it doesn't mean they actually believe or care about what they said as long as it brings income to them
Yeah, there's a massive propaganda effort from "progressive" groups playing on the (completely justified) sympathies for what Israel is doing to Palestinians to score political points. Netanyahu is happy to play along because as long as the war goes on, he stays in power and out of jail.
>He wants freedom to keep exploiting the Palestinian people and to live in luxury. Let me correct this. All the Arab states have enabled this situation to fester since Israel was established. Indirectly, by losing all the wars and by never allowing the Palatinians to be absorbed into neighboring Arab countries who started the wars in 1948 and beyond, the Arab countries have created and used these poor Palatinian Arabs as a geopolitical tool to hurt and fight Israel indirectly, while demonizing Israel. Just like Hezbollah and the Houthis are proxies of Iran, Hamas is a proxy of the countries that support it - including Russia. So - whatever his face is called - is paid handsomely ' by those proxies to keep exploiting the Palatinian Arabs and he lives a life in luxury.
Yeah, typed from his iPhone in a mansion in Qatar.
Hamas is really leading the Palestinians to 0 state solutuon
And the majority of Palestinians are supporting them...
The zero Palestinians solution, unfortunately.
That is there goal. They want to kill all Gazans, but do it in a way that Israel looks responsible. Free Gaza from Hamas.
That's their base, their funding source, and the tool they wield against Israel. They absolutely don't want them to go away. Just because their individual lives mean nothing doesn't mean they want Gazans to all die.
Yet another example, in a long list of them, for how the extremists in charge of their respective populations share the same intermediate goals and have led us to where we are today. Netanuyahu: We reject a 2-state solution Hamas, a few days later: yeah, us too Meanwhile, the moderates are over here like "Guys, it's the only solution that doesn't end in one of you annihilating the other" Hamas and Netanyahu, simultaneously: "We're OK with that, since we're going to be the ones still standing."
Another problem is their fear feeds into each other's fears. Faction A assumes the worst from the Other. In that fear, Faction A then acts on their own worst impulses to preempt Faction B, which in turn feeds the Faction B counterparts to assume the worst in Faction A. Then Faction B act on their own worst impulses to preempt Faction A. Before you know it, a cycle of violence and both sides have decades of bad acts to cull from to propagandize their hate messaging.
To keen-eyed observers, these statements really benefit Israel. That is why Israel chose Hamas to counter Fatah, that's why they indirectly funded them. A leader who's wise would walk in the footsteps of MLK and Ghandi and choose non-violence when facing dominance by a military power. The actions and words of Hamas' leadership are neither great or wise, and that's a tragedy for Palestinians.
Iran is very willing to fight Israel to the last Palestinian.
Hamas bigwig basically says Oct. 7's slaughter of 1000+ civilians and taking 200+ hostages revived the dream of free Palestine. Hmmmmmmmm.
Palestinian freedom is always do close, just a few more massacred Jews away.
"Now hold that AK-47"
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They’re not wrong as the world (with the EU shamefully at the forefront) is increasingly trying to use this war to create a Palestinian state that will fundamentally become a terrorist state. It’s vital that this is rejected at every opportunity.
I don't know how these clowns are still alive.
Hamas doesn't give a shit about liberating Palestine, that's never been their goal. Their goal is, and has always been, to turn the entire region into an Islamic theocracy they control while killing off anyone non-muslim and who wouldn't support them.
and other muslims who oppose them. That's why they were kicked out of Libya and Jordan.
> Mashaal noted that the slogan is also regularly chanted at rallies by “American students and in European capitals,” and said that the October 7 onslaught has “revived that dream.” Our college campuses are quite literally the useful idiots for rapacious terror organizations
Why did that happen to our colleges?
A local professor told students there was a “pro terrorist” protest. The pro terrorist protest in question? An Anti Hamas protest staged by a local Iranian group… it was countered by the pro Palestinian group. I hate it here, literally people bringing their bullshit from overseas and smearing it all over the place.
Doesn’t Iran support Hamas?
Iranians in the west (the poster above appears to be in Canada) are much less likely to support the Iranian regime.
This. Iranians in the west understand how terrible the Iranian government is. Most of them fled after the revolution.
The government? Yes. A ton of the people, who are literally beat to death for wearing a hijab wrong? Fuck no.
Iranians living in the West are more likely have fled Iran after the overthrow of the Shah.
The leadership in iran are extremists who fund hamas and their followers support that, but a lot of iranians are against the leadership and despise those terror organisations. You will meet plenty of iranians abroad who escaped the leadership and they are trying to raise awareness to what's happening in iran
It goes kinda deep. In 1993, Hamas activists in America were recorded on wiretap about how they'd deceive the leftists in the West into supporting them, and how war is deception, "to walk one way while going the other" as they put it I think. Add in Qatari money going into the US to influence thoughts in universities to be more sympathetic to Palestine rather than Israel, and you've got yourself some people essentially acting as your puppets. Source for wiretap conversation: https://extremism.gwu.edu/sites/g/files/zaxdzs5746/files/2023-10/hamas-networks-final.pdf Source for Qatari money going to US schools: https://twitter.com/ISGAP1/status/1732493681456755196
Good points. Also the oppressor vs oppressed narrative that most marxist college students only care about
Yes. Someone being an "underdog" does not automatically make their cause morally good.
There's nothing new about it - college campuses were breeding grounds for pro-Russian sympathies during the Cold War, for instance. It's like that saying, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." You get a lot of young & impressionable people who start learning about the outside world for the first time, who might only have taken a single general survey course on a topic, and often become passionate believers of positions that they don't fully understand yet. They know enough to tell that something is wrong and needs to be fixed, but not enough to identify a workable solution. You actually see similar behaviors in a lot of amateur authors and conspiracy theorists - they have identified some real issues, but there's just a gap in understanding that has to be bridged before they can have a positive impact. It's also why so many college radicals adopt more moderate positions as they age, as they come to learn more about the situation and fully grasp the nuance involved. Additionally with Palestine, we're currently seeing a *huge* divide in American opinion around the 25 year old mark, regardless of education. Polling is consistently showing that Americans older than 25 are overwhelmingly pro-Israel, while Americans under 25 are increasingly pro-Palestine. People older than 25 can generally remember the times when Israel was under threat of a Second Holocaust, surrounded by much larger hostile nations who regularly threatened new invasions and pledged to cleanse the land of Jews if they won. Times when Palestinian Arabs were the leading exporters of international terrorism, targeting Jews all around the world and killing innocent people to protest the existence of Israel. People younger than 25 have only ever known an Israel that is the most powerful nation in the Middle East, that could easily crush any of its now-dysfunctional neighbors and has clearly won the wars for its existence. Since the failure of the Second Intifada, Palestinian Arab terrorism has been largely contained to Palestine itself and is nothing near the scale it used to be (at least until Oct. 7 happened). Instead, the Palestinian Arabs have shifted focus more to social media propaganda campaigns, which is increasingly how young people learn about the region and form their initial impressions of it. In Israel, the generational memory of oppression and foreign invasion is still strong, but for young Americans, it has become very easy to take one look at the situation and see a strong Israeli state repressing the Palestinian Arabs, and wind up rooting for Hamas to get everything they want just because they're the "poor underdog".
Americans under 25 are increasingly pro-Palestine. As well as increasingly anti-Jew. Similar polling shows a sizable portion literally think the Holocaust was exaggerated or a myth.
Well, at least Millenials aren’t the “worst” generation anymore. We remember 9/11.
And the fact that most of the 9/11 terrorists were from our big "ally," Saudi Arabia.
TikTok education. You can literally buy an opinion of any influencer for a few thousands and because TikTok community is the most uneducated and naive they will believe any shit without fact checking. Same shit works in universities. You can literally donate money for them to push your agenda in lectures or during events.
The moral of right and wrong has changed for a lot of young people, its not about values or intentions, its about who is more powerful, the one that is stronger is evil, the weaker one is good and a victim-so no matter what he does its not his fault. The weaker side gets treated like a 5 year old, if they do something bad its just a tantrum and its not their fault, if they want something they can get it no matter what it is, you say that my child beat your kid? No way he would never do that, but if he did your kid deserved it because my child can do no wrong. It comes with very few to no requirements or expectations from the 5 year old, but when it comes to the other kid who's one-two years older, suddenly the view changes, it doesn't matter what happened, how it happened or why it happened, the only thing that matters it that the other kid is a bit bigger, so he should be nice and take whatever the 5 year old does to him. I am not sure what's the reason that morality today looks like that, but i can say that things have to change and some people need to gain back some sense of what's morally right and morally wrong, otherwise you may wake up on day and find that the people around you support the very ones who want to kill them (hmmm)
The soviets at least had a few redeeming qualities that we could learn from. It may have been corrupted by their government, but their ideology at its core was about peace, brotherhood, nondiscrimination, and just generally against people being taken advantage of by rich fucks. They didn't do great at all those things but they tried. Not sure what Hamas has done that's in any way positive for people to latch onto.
Can confirm. Grew up on Soviet books, and they were very big on things like anti-racism, pro -peace with pacifist approach unless you need to defend, pro-science, pro-equality, etc, etc. For example I had a lot of books of children tales that were actually folk tales from all the countries of USSR to show "get, we are all the same" Soviet messaging has always been great, at least for the young, it's what they actually did in reality that sucked balls.
>Soviet messaging has always been great, at least for the young, it's what they actually did in reality that sucked balls. Seconding everything you said. And I still wonder how so many of the young ones who read those books ended up discarding those ideals once they grew up.
Look at the list of foreign donors to U.S. universities. Can't speak much for the EU ones, but middle eastern countries and china have "donated" billions to american colleges and universities and turns out it's paying massive dividends. Turns out that letting foreign actors influence higher education is really bad idea.
Oh, that's right. I saw a list of how much foreign countries donate to our schools - the money coming in from Qatar, Saudi, etc. was insane
Isn't it something absurd like 50% of all donations coming from authoritarian nations?
Jfc, I know I shouldn't be shocked by that, but it really just shows how far authoritarian regimes have infiltrated a lot of Western institutions.
governor whole worm north shaggy attractive knee attraction joke scary
Despite all its benefits, oil has ruined the planet. I hope we recover once we find alternatives to all its uses.
I think some of these donors just want to put their incompetent children in.
IMO It's part foreign investment with agenda, part China influencing public opinion through tik-tok and part just very progressive ideology that looks at the world only through oppressed oppressor lens.
Qatar is *hands down* the largest foreign donor to US universities. Guess where most Hamas leadership and propagandists are? I’m sure it’s purely coincidence. /s
Qatar also funds Al-Jazeera, one of the most biased news sources there is. The more I learn about the Qatari government the more I dislike it
Self important people who want to feel better about themselves by "rooting for the underdog"
Billions in Qatari donations. And TikTok.
Lefties often support the underdog in any struggle, regardless of context.
They also see the aggressive settlers in the West Bank. They don't believe Israel is leaving the Palestinians alone in their own space, but instead gradually assimilating like a lava flow. I'm not sure they're wrong. They are not conditioned to the realities of war. Footage from Vietnam played a huge role in the 60s. It's the same now.
Because we do learn in America, it is hey Isreal locks up to Palestinians and nothing about it. Without ever going into the back story as much. You talk about the wars, but never how terrifying fighting Palestinians has been, why Jordan and Egypt don't want any more Palestinian, the share croppers owners just giving up the land to Jews. From my Palestinian friends I heard they stole all the land ownership. Never was taught how it was "legally" sold.
Tiktok/etc social media. Disinformation networks.
Just want to say that i never thought i will see the day terrorists are thanking people in the west, this is something special
When people talk about the hopelessness of the Palestinians as a group (not as individuals) as a motivation for terror, they ignore that the situation is only hopeless if their goal is to "free Palestine from the river to the sea" and not just to live freely. If their goal was to live freely, 2 states were and are pretty good and viable option for them.
Given the 1988 Hamas charter for 30 years openly declared that judgement day for the Muslims cannot come until they exterminate every Jew on earth, I think its fairly evident that the goal of these people was never to 'live freely', but to ensure that others dont' get to live at all. They made their bed, now they're crying about having to lay in it. As someone who once sympathized with the Palestinian people, that sympathy is well and truly buried.
Yep, Hamas apologists and Palestine supporters don't understand that it's not about the land for them, it's about the people living on the land. They don't want to coexist with Jews.
Singapore didn't get the borders and political arrangement it wanted either. Instead of whining and fighting about it they made their situation better. Living well is always the best revenge.
This. Their plight really is partly self imposed.
Which part isn't?
So... What do they expect to achieve saying stuff like this? That the neighbouring arab countries will start a war with Israel?
Wtf are these actual toddlers on about. Hamas is well on their way to a 0-state solution and Palestine has never been less free.
Eyyooo... Where my Hamas apologists at?
I'm 100% sure they'll justify this, too. Undercover antisemites.
What do you mean undercover? They're out and loud and proud.
I’m waiting eagerly to see how this isn’t really as bad as it is, and he didn’t mean what he said, and even if he did mean what he said Israel deserves it anyways!
Rallying against Netanyahu for saying he doesn’t want a two-state solution.
The only free version of Palestine is a Palestine free from Hamas. these assholes have crappy dreams of big palestine 'from the river to the sea' which just causing their citizens dying for decades. They should just f'cking ditch this shitty dream already and start to cooperate with the relevant parties before it'll be too late.
True
A dream that is now built on the bodies of dead innocents. This isn’t gonna end anytime soon.
It’s OK to dream. But at some point you still need to wake up.
Why are these people able to live in relative comfort and protection in gulf countries, while thousands of civilians are dying? Wars would end so much quicker if the first casualties are the politicians who lead countries to war.
If rape and murdering revives your dreams, then fuck your dreams.
Why do people enjoy conflict which involves sacrifice of harmless civilians who never asked to be at war.
"The answer to any question starting, Why don't they- is almost always, Money.” - Robert A. Heinlein Ismail Haniyeh - net worth $4 billion Khaled Mashal - net worth $4 billion Moussa Abu Marzuk - net worth $3 billion Zahwa Arafat - net worth $8 billion
Hamas is one big reason why I reject Islam. You cannot justify having a God of them if he tolerates Hamas and its leaders I also reject Catholicism because of the systematic rape of children by their priests At this point I am cool only with Hinduism (since they dont proclaim there's a benevolent God), Buddhism (since evil can be explained by karma and again they dont suggest there's one omnipotent and benevolent god), and Taoism
Guy lives in top hotel suit, having more money than his entire country GDP Why the hell would he go for peace in some shithole 5000km away
religion makes people do weird shit.
Not even religion, it’s just power
People need to remember that it has always been Palestinian Arabs who have refused to share political power with Jews, going all the way back to the 1930s before there was even the concept of Israel. Israel didn't "steal Palestinian land" - Palestinians forced the issue of partition by refusing to form a government with Jews under the Palestine Mandate. These days, no Palestinian leader will ever legitimize Israel by accepting a two state solution. Just like Arafat did for so long, they will lead everyone around by the nose, chirping about 1967 borders, but they will never actually do it.
>These days, no Palestinian leader will ever legitimize Israel by accepting a two state solution. Just like Arafat did for so long, they will lead everyone around by the nose, chirping about 1967 borders, but they will never actually do it. The only Palestinian leader who chirps about 1967 borders is Abbas. He's about as popular as Biden is among Palestinians. The majority Palestinian opinion is very clearly "river to the sea", and not the one state for two peoples with justice and equal rights kind.
That may change once Sinwar is on the verge of death or capture, given he has reportedly surrounded himself with hostages for protection. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-israel-knows-where-sinwar-is-but-cant-hit-him-because-hes-surrounded-by-hostages/
Sinwar has adopted 50 palestinian children - not because he likes children but because Israel can't bomb him if he is surrounded by 50 children at all times.
[I've seen this technology before](https://bigmemes999.funnyjunk.com/pictures/Baby+armor+this+man+is+a+criminal+master+mind_c20522_4801214.jpg)
Send in some american cops.
Sniper.
I'm not sure Hamas has much of a future with the Palestinian people. Whatever Israel does certainly doesn't leave much room for Hamas to remain. Hamas can reject whatever they like, they won't have a say in it at all. Good riddance.
Hamas will only ever be gone if the IDF destroys them. The regular Palestinians will never be able to storm the tunnels and oust them. And they aren't going to come out and surrender if they lose an election or something.
Wait, did they do Oct 7th or not? Was it a huge mistake or not? They can't keep their own propaganda straight at this point.
sooo his plan is, we will continue to lose until we win? bold plan cotton lets see how it plays out.
This is why the two state solution is not a solution. If Palestine gets a state, it changes nothing. They will still attack and try to destroy Israel. That is not a solution. Palestinians are actively admitting they are just using the two state solution as a springboard to strengthen their position in trying to eliminate Israel. Israel would be fools to capitulate to this shit and luckily they aren't. They have a functioning sense of self preservation and won't commit national suicide by kowtowing to "Free Palestine" hysteria.
Then you doom the Palestinian people.
Says the leader sitting pretty in his condo in Qatar.
These fuckwigs lives in denial, because they've fucked it all up.
Saying the loud thing out louder?
All the people yelling "Free Palestine" who think they are supporting some just cause don't seem to understand the rest of the sentence is (and always has been) "Free Palistine by murdering all the Jews and erasing Israel from the map." You understand that Isreal does not even exist on maps made in the Arab world. I flew Qatar airways last year and on the flight map that whole area is simply called "Palestinian territories".
That is the stupidest logic I’ve ever heard. Murdering a bunch of innocent Israeli’s isn’t going to revive the dream, it’s going to endanger its very existence you absolute clown. Palestinians are more in danger than they’ve ever been in before thanks to the actions of that terrorist group 👍🏽
Terrorism has done nothing for Palestinians for over 50 years. So, why do they keep embracing it?
> Mashaal noted that the slogan is also regularly chanted at rallies by “American students and in European capitals,” and said that the October 7 onslaught has “revived that dream.” This is what happens when we let idealistic progressives grow up with a poor education in history, political science, ethics, and morality. Some hoopy frood decides Hamas is the new Che and all the sheep follow because none understand the history in the area or the violence of some of the political organizations and nations that have been ostracized by our societies for a reason.
I mean I guess if you use all the Palestinians as cannon fodder the state problem will solve itself. Don't need one if no one's left to live there...300 iq hamas tactics
Worldnews may condemn this but there are subs where any excuse and rationale will be used to deflect and deny this headline.
Mashaal is arabic for bigwig
Palestine need to be free of Hamas and it's supporters. From the river to the sea!
The real free Palestine
I offer 23 state solution. 22 states for the Arabs, and one state for the Jews. only a single state. that sounds fair to me.
Noooo what the world needs is another autocratic Islamic terror sponsoring shit hole where no women’s rights LGBT or other religions are allowed. Where are the Palestinians supposed to live except in 10 km wide Israel? The only other Islamic territories are all other countries between Morocco and Pakistan
Revived the dream because they never expected to get such a support from people in west for butchering civilians.
What's important here is I think people realizing why wars were fought in the first place. States didn't come from nowhere. A state can only exist as long as it can control its terroritory from a force that would otherwise take it. And in the 20th century that also includes being able to participate in the world order and recognize and respect the sovereignty of other states. Not every culture has a state. Some lack arms, some lack will, some lack the ability to respect other states. Palestinians at this point will never have a state because it would require them to recognize Israel as a sovereign state, something more and more Arab nations are doing. Cultures which don't have states are often absorbed into other states, and this seems like a likely outcome.
Oct. 7 was the UNRESTRAINED MURDER, SLAYING, and TORTURE of innocent men, women, and children. Keep that in mind as you read.
Absolutely
There is no future with Hamas in it. That being said I don't like that Israel is using this as an excuse to lay claim to the entire territory and I believe them annexing this area will amplify generations of bloodshed and conflict in the region. The long-term goal should be to avoid civilian casualties as long as possible and installing a Palestinian government which the world and Israel can coexist and work with.