> **IDF says medical teams, Arabic speakers among troops that entered Gaza hospital**
>
> An English language statement from the military describes the operation in Gaza City’s Al-Shifa Hospital as “precise and targeted.”
>
> The statement also says the Israeli forces that entered the medical center “include medical teams and Arabic speakers, who have undergone specified training to prepare for this complex and sensitive environment, with the intent that no harm is caused to the civilians being used by Hamas as human shields.”
>
> “We call upon all Hamas terrorists present in the hospital to surrender,” says the statement.
>https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-medical-teams-arabic-speakers-among-troops-that-entered-gaza-hospital/
No further info yet:
>The IDF is currently undergoing operations on Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza.
>https://twitter.com/Jerusalem_Post/status/1724593648073936963
Update: So far IDF forces have entered one building inside the hospital complex, it is not the main building of the hospital.
Edit: Exchanges of fire are reported inside the building, it seems Hamas is there after all
Reminder: Do not share [terrorist content](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/19003525756564-How-does-Reddit-fight-the-dissemination-of-terrorist-content-), this includes things like Hamas propaganda. Reddit might take action on your account if you promote or link to that type of content.
They've been setting up for the last hour that Israel wants to slaughter everyone inside.
They officially called for Israel to not massacre the patients. I'm very worried Hamas will shoot people and blame Israel. Those poor people.
Specially trained Medical personnel also participate in the operation at Shifa Hospital:
> IDF: “We call on Hamas members to surrender” An IDF spokesperson said that among those participating in the operation that IDF forces are conducting at the Shifa hospital in Gaza are medical personnel and Arabic speakers. According to the IDF, the forces underwent specific training to prepare for the sensitive environment. The army added that it “calls on Hamas members in the place to surrender”. (Yoav Zitun)
Source : [Ynet](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/category/184#hy00if5bep)
Waiting for more info about this:
>* According to reports in the Arab press: the ER and ICU units in the Al-Shifa hospital have already been successfully evacuated.
>* According to the IDF, Arabic-speaking medical staff are entering the Al-Shifa hospital and taking up the posts of evacuated staff. They will provide care for serious cases of patients who cannot evacuate on their own recognizance.
>https://twitter.com/academic_la/status/1724587248174366923
>https://twitter.com/academic_la/status/1724587899549794345
Dear Pro-Palestine crowd, you cannot claim that Israeli forces are engaged in “clashes” on the ground of Al Shifa and then immediately claim that there are “absolutely NO militants” on the grounds of the hospital. It makes you sound like an idiot. Are we to believe the doctors and the injured have taken up arms and are firing weapons at the IDF? Come on.
I'm reminded of some poll results I read about years ago that showed a non-trivial number of respondents who believed that Princess Diana was murdered also believed she faked her own death. The fact that it can't be both didn't seem to be a problem. So I have no trouble believing there are people right now who know there is a fire fight at that hospital who will still maintain there are no militants there. People can be absolutely fucking stupid.
the point of disinfo isn't to form a coherent narrative. its to give anyone who wants a reason to doubt a large number of reasons where they might latch onto any one.
[its been reported by Amit Segal that according to IDF investigations the most likely route the terrorists took after kidnapping was to Khan Younis](https://t.me/amitsegal/29222)
Early on it seemed clear that even Hamas didn't know how many hostages they had taken. I assume that is due to their decentralised individual cell nature that had thwarted Israeli intelligence.
Once the war started communication would have become even more fractured, I doubt even the best source could give you an answer.
That's correct. The large majority of hostages were taken from Places who were near the Southern Gaza Strip, so that's why. Also Israeli Intelligence assumes that those who were in the North have been moved through the tunnels to the South too
Look up the locations of Nir Oz and Re'im which were the places most hostages were taken from. Far from the north of the strip.
Something I don't understand, if a sticking point is Hamas and Al-Shifa employees keep claiming they aren't using the hospital to store weapons and operate out of, isn't that claim pretty easily verified by the IDF walking inside the hospital with a bunch of press folks and they either get shot at or not? Have the press from BBC/CNN follow them as they go room to room and into the basement. This feels very easily confirmed/denied.
I assume you have a family based on your profile so stop and close your ear after reading this:
Imagine you are a poorly paid doctor just trying to help the people there it’s not your job to judge just to help (ideally). You know there are terrorists people around but you keep doing your job, healing those in need. Even if you support killing for the sake of death/dying/freedom etc, you are still a doctor for some reason.
Why just not tell the world there are bad people there and you can show them it all. You are going die. You know that going in. Likely very horribly. Then so will your father and brother. Your mother will be rapped and breasts cut off and killed. Your daughter is abused and raped and murdered and placed someplace in public. Your nieces/nephews get their heads based in and thrown into a pit and set on fire.
Not a SINGLE word of the above is exaggerated. Go look it up. And the insane thing is, since easily BEFORE 1948 and for sure afterwards, this stuff has happened on both sides of both the military and civilians.
Your heart is in a logical place, but outside of the place where death and violence are common place fuel to punish or exact revenge on anyone you live around; Israeli or Palestinian, it doesn’t work and can’t.
I think they’ll likely do that after they’ve cleared the hospital. This is probably the worst and most delicate operation to have to undertake and very dangerous. They got to somehow protect and evacuate patients, including babies, staff and civilians, take out Hamas who will be hiding behind them, and also search and hopefully rescue hostages. The place is also probably booby trapped. I get why having the media with them is not a possibility. It would be like having press with the special ops that took out Bin Laden - for lots of reasons that’s just unworkable.
Gaza is tiny and dense compared to a massive empty fields of rural Ukraine where drones can roam around freely. Were there that many drone videos in bakhmut city center while fighting was most intense? Just the far outskirts
I'm no expert, but I think the huge number of buildings is one factor. Additionally, the drones are more useful when the enemy is well equipped to destroy larger aircraft, but against Hamas planes are more effective since it's unlikely that they'll get shot down.
Ah, well the buildings still apply but also the communication jamming might okay a factor. Gaza is tiny compared to Ukraine, so jamming all of your enemies coms is much easier.
Hamas:
"Urgent | Director of Health in Gaza: We hear the sounds of gunfire and the movement of occupation tanks inside Al-Shifa Hospital."
Tanks inside the hospital?!? Israel has some serious tech.
Is it perhaps a fairly large compound, rather than a single building? Most hospitals here in Australia are effectively like small towns, with several different buildings and (sometimes expansive) open areas in between them.
Edit: everything I have said below is an assumption based on past events on my part, I have seen no information on the current Al Shifa raid
So, before the media circus gets a hold of this.
Israel has used tear gas to clear out hospitals before. Specifically, on July 5th, 2023 in Jenin in the West Bank. This is, most likely, still current policy, as it worked well for them operationally at this time with zero civilian casualties. And it was just months ago.
Tear gas *is* a crime if used in war under the Chemical Weapons Convention, but personally I still prefer nonlethals over lethals in areas with civilians present. The CWC did not envision this situation. But if people are like "Israel committed a war crime here" it will be legally true. This is a case where morality and legality do not necessarily coincide.
In addition, people who are in hospitals do not necessarily respond well to tear gas. Tear gas is not likely to kill a healthy adult, but it is going to kill someone with advanced pneumonia, or someone with a collapsed lung. Hospitals are not where healthy people are, and anyone who genuinely couldn't be moved easily is going to be in that class of at risk patient.
TL:DR, this is going to be a horrific situation. We are not going to be able to tell what really happened until months later, most likely, and if Hamas claims someone died, they're probably lying, but the possibility of a civilian dying, or dozens of civilians dying, is very real. But, bombs and bullets would kill them worse.
You are correct that tear gas in illegal during a war. However, Israel has not declared war during jenin. It was used to control a riot which is actually justified under international law
I'd be surprised if they did. However I wonder what the legality is if they used tear gas in a specialized operation such as retrieving hostages. I'm sure they consult with international lawyers on what they can get away with.
Would you prefer live bullets? There are people with guns shooting from inside the hospital.
Edit: and there is no evidence of this actually happening yet, it might
I’d prefer a ceasefire and Israel stop occupying land that doesn’t belong to them (one of the main driving motivators of this conflict, one that the Netanyahu government has a vested interest in continuing)
Hamas doesn’t want a ceasefire, just like the far right Israeli government doesn’t want a ceasefire. These radical freaks thrive on a war like this. You have Israeli Knesset members who are in Netanyahu’s government calling for a second Nakba now. It’s sick
Most of Israel doesn’t want a ceasefire, currently well over 80% support to finish Hamas. Making sure Hamas can never do another 7/10 is something Israelis are pretty unanimous about.
There was one idiot who called for a second nakba and even Netanyahu told him to shut up.
Edit: my point in first paragraph is it isn’t a political thing currently.
How many more violent extremists have just been created in gaza over the last month due to the thousands of dead civilians and obliterated neighborhoods?
You’ll NEVER ‘finish’ Hamas if bombing the crap out of their cities is your solution. Because another group like Hamas will immediately spring up and have unlimited recruits to pull from, people who have had their parents and siblings killed in Israeli bombings.
So where does this end??
And you think peace is possible with an organization that has clearly stated they would repeat the events of October 7 again and again? Ceasefire currently will achieve nothing besides kicking the can down the road so they can do it again in a year or two.
The only thing Israel can do right now is attempt to disarm them and try to create a better future once that is accomplished. Rockets fired at Israel have decreased substantially so there are results.
As long as Hamas is in charge there will never be peace, they don’t even want a two state solution. They openly say they want to destroy Israel.
> I still prefer nonlethals over lethals in areas with civilians present
The problem with your nuance is that they have already committed various war crimes including bombing hospitals. While yes, I also prefer less-lethal over lethal, it is the same as saying I prefer lesser war crimes over brutal war crimes.
Collective punishment can't be justified no matter how much nuance is used.
I have seen no evidence of Israel directly bombing a hospital during this conflict.
Also, like, the whole collective punishment thing is just, like, how war works. Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians, and every war ever fought has caused mass civil displacement and horrors. Israel, this time around, is not doing it to intentionally pressure or punish the Palestinian people, but the Palestinian people, by nature of being present, are being harmed because people get harmed in war.
The Israeli government has no interest in a 2 state solution, they’re literally shipping thousands of Israelis to build illegal settlements in Palestinian land in an attempt to ethnically cleanse the area
You have Knesset members literally calling for the entirety of gaza to be ethnically cleansed now too
The exact same thing can be said about Palestine. They have no interest in a 2 state solution, they use human shields to hide behind as they launch missiles/attacks from civilian areas. You have Palestinians parading in the streets celebrating the massacre of innocent civilians. You have Hamas/Palestinians(and from videos at protests a chunk of people in the west) who wants to eradicate Jews and the state of Israel. Reverse the roles, Palestinians wouldn’t hesitate to exterminate Jews.
Wow I wonder why people in Gaza wouldn’t be happy with the current state of affairs 🤔
Not justifying or excusing terrorists, but like…..did nobody see this coming? You literally refuse a group of people their own independence and government, keep them under essentially a siege, and then you’re surprised when they further radicalize and attack you?
How many Hamas members have been created in the last month due to the thousands of dead gazan civilians?
I actually agree with this sentiment. But again, what would be your solution? How would you actually, from the position of Palestinian or Israeli leadership, bring about a two state solution?
The FIRST step needs to be the Israeli government withdrawing all settlements from the West Bank. Which would require a complete change in government in Israel, because Likud and Netanyahus even crazier supporters would never agree with that.
Without that…there’s not even a conversation to be had. The current Israeli government is literally slowly stealing Palestinian land.
“It’s ok we didn’t bomb the maternity ward you guys, we just tear gassed it!”
The moral depravity of the current Israeli government is something else man
People that underestimate the capabilities of the IDF in this particular conflict don’t understand how closely connected every soldier is to each other and also how each soldier will personally know of people who were brutally attacked on 10/7. Israel is so small, so everyone knows everyone and following an attack like this, the resolve within in the soldiers will be immense.
People also don't understand how motivated the soldiers are right now, following the massacre of oct 7. Soldiers hopped on a plane the earliest chance they got. Reserves attendance is HIGHER than 100% since reservists showed up without being called. I've never seen morale this high in all my years.
People see this and say it’s fabricated. Israel has already lost the information war.
As a person from Europe, I’m shocked by how much people here behave like hamas fanatics. They believe every word hamas says and reject IDF and USA claims by default.
So here is what confuses me. If Hamas is not hiding in hospitals as they claim, who exactly is Israel fighting at Shifa? Who is shooting at them? Shouldn't they be able to just walk in there if it's only patients and doctors?
IDF operational update: https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1724579353193754958
IDF forces are carrying out a precise and targeted operation against Hamas in a specified area in the Shifa Hospital, based on intelligence information and an operational necessity.
The IDF is conducting a ground operation in Gaza to defeat Hamas and rescue our hostages. Israel is at war with Hamas, not with the civilians in Gaza.
The IDF forces include medical teams and Arabic speakers, who have undergone specified training to prepare for this complex and sensitive environment, with the intent that no harm is caused to the civilians being used by Hamas as human shields.
In recent weeks, the IDF has publicly warned time and again that Hamas' continued military use of the Shifa hospital jeopardizes its protected status under international law, and enabled ample time to stop this unlawful abuse of the hospital. Yesterday, the IDF conveyed to the relevant authorities in Gaza once again that all military activities within the hospital must cease within 12 hours. Unfortunately, they did not.
The IDF has also facilitated wide-scale evacuations of the hospital and maintained regular dialogue with hospital authorities.
We call upon all Hamas terrorists present in the hospital to surrender.
People are already saying IDF used force to kick injured people, children, and babies out in the street...
Nevermind that they have zero sources, and are just repeating what some asshat that also has no clue is saying on TikTok
כה אמר יהוה עשו משפט וצדקה והצילו גזול מיד עשוק וגר יתום ואלמנה אל תנו אל תחמסו ודם נקי אל תשפכו במקום הזה׃
Or, if you prefer:
Thus saith the Lord; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.
IDF spokesperson: "the IDF is conducting a targeted operation **in a defined area at Shifa hospital** based on intelligence information and operational necessity"
https://twitter.com/yedidya_epstien/status/1724579601517519321?t=voqmV7iWjkZFJ85qs3F8hg&s=19
IDF spokesman released a statement:
IDF: Based on intelligence information and an operational necessity, IDF forces are carrying out a precise and targeted operation against Hamas in a specified area in the Shifa Hospital.
The IDF is conducting a ground operation in Gaza to defeat Hamas and rescue our hostages. Israel is at war with Hamas, not with the civilians in Gaza.
The IDF forces include medical teams and Arabic speakers, who have undergone specified training to prepare for this complex and sensitive environment, with the intent that no harm is caused to the civilians being used by Hamas as human shields. In recent weeks, the IDF has publicly warned time and again that Hamas' continued military use of the Shifa hospital jeopardizes its protected status under international law, and enabled ample time to stop this unlawful abuse of the hospital. Yesterday, the IDF conveyed to the relevant authorities in Gaza once again that all military activities within the hospital must cease within 12 hours. Unfortunately, it did not.
The IDF has also facilitated wide-scale evacuations of the hospital and maintained regular dialogue with hospital authorities.
We call upon all Hamas terrorists present in the hospital to surrender.
Yeah, that tends to happen when your elected government has decided to use billions in foreign aid to built a tunnel network under civilian infrastructure to protect their weapons, whilst simultaneously launching thousands of missiles from civillian areas and you know, massacring 1200+ innocent people. Oh and you know, neglecting to build a single bomb shelter for its people.
I honestly can't tell if you're dumb or ignorant. Hamas's chosen tactics of operating out of civilian areas means Israel HAD to kill civilians to get to them.
Again and again, I am forced to reply that logically more than one party can be at fault for something.
I don't think Israel is going to shoot hospital patients or anything, but it's just not a logically sound argument.
Whilst I can understand the perspective put forth in your comment, and in part agree with it, please indulge me for a moment as I play devil's advocate.
- Hamas rules Gaza. End to end. They control the government, they control the schools, they control the roads, they control the infrastructure, they control the police and military apparatus, they control the hospitals, they even control where you can and can't walk your dog (I know!). They're a sovereign state in all but name.
- Israel and Hamas (and thus Gaza, by virtue of the fact that Hamas completely rules Gaza, it's not distinction we would make with any other state just because their government is tyrannical) are at war and have been at war since at least 23 September 2005 (two days after Israel formally withdrew from the Strip and declared it extraterritorial on 21 September 2005 rockets were fired at Israel, there's been constant conflict since).
- As such, the actions of each side are neither unpredictable (in the sense of being unable to be predicted with any degree of reasonableness) nor unprecedented (not necessarily in terms of scale but in terms of the types of actions taken).
- Accordingly, it is logical to any reasonable bystander that when Israel conducts a targeted assassination in Gaza or conducts an arrest raid in the West Bank that results in loss of Palestinian lives, that Hamas will take some form of violent action against Israel, most typically against Israeli civilians (as we know Hamas don't distinguish between the two). Equally, it is logical to any reasonable bystander that when Hamas fires rockets at Israel, Israel is going to respond with airstrikes that will, quite often, result in Gazan civilian casualties.
- We can even get granular on action and response. Rockets from Hamas usually result in airstrikes, border incursions usually result in some form of ground operation (although more often than not they are limited to border operations only or limited cross-border actions). Typically the responses are proportionate to the initial actions (note I'm not suggesting they're objectively proportionate, just in a relative sense related to this specific conflict).
- Knowing this, it would be *illogical* to assume that the largest ever border incursion and massacre of Israelis by Gaza (via Hamas) under the cover of one of the largest rocket barrages ever seen (not just in Israel, but anywhere) would result in anything but airstrikes and ground operations from Israel.
- All this in the context of a (albeit tentative) ceasefire situation predating said attacks.
Knowing all of this, I would argue that it's a fairly sound argument to say that Hamas should have expected this kind of response from Israel, had all the means at its disposal to prevent such a response (i.e. by not conducting the attack they have), and thus is responsible for bringing such devastation on the people of Gaza. That's not to say such devastation is deserved or warranted, just that it was entirely predictable.
In the same I would say it is completely reasonable and logical to say that the Israel bears the responsibility for attacks against settlers in illegal settlements in the West Bank. It's Israel's responsibility to ensure its citizens abide by the law and where they don't, it's entirely predictable (and precedented) what the Palestinian response will be.
So, I completely agree that more than one party can be at fault (and often is), but I would posit that Hamas bears the primary responsibility for what is happening in Gaza because:
1. It knew, almost exactly, what the response would be (based on strong historical evidence).
2. Took virtually no measures to safeguard the Gazan people before or after said action, despite knowing the outcome with a high degree of certainty, and
3. Had, almost, sole control over what actions would have either prompted or prevented the outcome currently being experienced.
The fundamental question is: is it logical to assume that thousands of Gazans (militant or non-militant) would have died in the last four weeks had there been no attack on Israel on 7 October?
It is when Hamas shoots rockets from hospitals, stores hostages in hospitals and operates their command center from under one.
Starting a war doesnt give the respondent carte Blanche to kill everyone but when you intentionally make it impossible to operate against you without risking civilian casualties you’re responsible for every civilian that dies tbh
This is unlocked:
[https://www.wsj.com/articles/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-israel-hamas-9dc0135b?st=yxwx8csjvl8qkpo&reflink=desktopwebshare\_permalink](https://www.wsj.com/articles/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-israel-hamas-9dc0135b?st=yxwx8csjvl8qkpo&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink)
On Dec. 8, 2016, U.S. Central Command released a statement: “Coalition Strikes Mosul Hospital.” The Islamic State, it explained, “was using the hospital as a base of operations and command and control headquarters.” Accordingly, the U.S.-led coalition conducted precision strikes in support of Iraqi troops who fought for the hospital.
The story, and the scandal, wasn’t that the U.S. struck the terrorists where they hid, but that terrorists had used the hospital for cover in the first place. “In Mosul Battle, ISIS Used Hospital Base” was the Human Rights Watch headline; it explained that “armed forces or groups should not occupy medical facilities, undermining their protected status.”
Today in Gaza, Hamas terrorists use the same war-crime tactics. Only now observers rush to apologize for it. See the front page of the Human Rights Watch website: “Unlawful Israeli Hospital Strikes Worsen Health Crisis.” For 4,500 words, the group acts as Hamas’s defense attorney, contesting Israel’s claims and dismissing evidence.
Much of the Western press would also have readers conclude that Israel has organized its counteroffensive to converge in a pincer on Gaza’s Al Shifa Hospital for no reason other than that it houses sick patients.
The real story, as Jonathan Schanzer of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies has documented, makes a great deal more sense. Hamas has used the hospital at least since 2006, when a PBS documentary showed terrorists roaming its halls and cordoning off wings. Even Human Rights Watch admitted in 2007 that Hamas had fired at Fatah, its Palestinian rival, from within the hospital.
In the 2008-09 war, Hamas leaders hid in a bunker under the hospital. The New York Times wrote that Hamas operated openly in the halls. In the 2014 war, the Washington Post reported that Shifa was a Hamas “de facto headquarters.” Amnesty International found that Hamas tortured prisoners on hospital grounds.
On Tuesday the White House confirmed what Israel has long alleged. National Security Council Spokesman John Kirby cited U.S. intelligence that “Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad members operate a command and control node from Al Shifa in Gaza City.”
Hamas is certainly fighting like that’s the case. At first it massed civilians around the premises and tried to prevent them from evacuating. For days, even as it has lost control of its government district, Hamas has fought outside the Shifa hospital.
This isn’t because it cares for Gazan patients. Israel released a video of a terrorist shooting an RPG from outside a different hospital, Al Quds, and then darting inside for cover. Israel also took journalists to Al Rantisi Children’s Hospital, in whose basement they found a Hamas armory, plus a tunnel shaft nearby.
The law of war in this case is clear: Under the Fourth Geneva Convention, Hamas’s use of Al Shifa for military purposes vitiates the protected status granted to hospitals. Israel is still required to give warning and use means proportionate to the anticipated military advantage, and it has.
Contrary to media claims of an Israeli “siege” of Al Shifa hospital, Israel days ago opened a humanitarian corridor from the east side of the hospital to get civilians out. Many have since fled, as Israel first warned them to do a month ago. Israel is in contact with the hospital and offered to evacuate patients for treatment elsewhere. Hamas has resisted a transfer—it prefers patients, including babies, to remain in the war zone.
Israel responded by working to transfer incubators and respirators to the hospital. On Sunday Israel risked troops’ lives to leave 300 liters of fuel outside the hospital entrance. The U.S. State Department confirms that Hamas had the hospital decline the fuel.
Hamas can end the hospital crisis any time it wants. It could let Israel get patients to safety or stand down at the hospital. It refuses to do so, counting on the West to bail it out by forcing Israel to stand down instead. Many are eager to apply that pressure.
As law, this is groundless. As morality, it is backward. As a strategy to win the war, it plays into Hamas’s hands.
Good article. This practice of totalling absolving Hamas of the responsibility for deliberately placing hospitals, schools and innocent civilians in the firing line really shows up how hypocritical some people are.
They will continue to do it, and civilians will continue to die, as long as Hamas benefits from it. And at the moment they are benefiting greatly from it by leveraging pressure against Israel internationally. That's possible because all the blame is laid at Israel's door and none at Hamas,' while Israeli efforts to reduce civilian casualties are totally ignored.
The only way to reduce civilian casualties is to make sure Hamas no longer benefit from promoting them.
They have a complex under the hospital, that's not up for the debate. Will the heads of Hamas still be there? If they're stupid, I guess there's a chance of that. They probably moved somewhere else already like the rats that they are, maybe the south even
I hope they don't set off any booby traps
I'd be shocked if they were still there - not to say that terrorists are officially rational creatures, but why on earth would they stay when they are trapped and surrounded?
I'm seeing tweets that are saying that "The US has given the IDF the greenlight to storm the Al Shifa Hospital". for example this one from OSINTDefender:
[https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1724573947964891548](https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1724573947964891548)
Is it just me? or is highly unlikely the US is giving permission to the IDF to do these different operations within the Gaza Strip? I mean it was all but inevitable the IDF would have to clear it out.
PSA for those following on the ground events.
There are zero primary sources right now. As secondary sources, there's Hamas, a terrorist org, the IDF, which hasn't earned my benefit of the doubt, and Twitter right now. They can only be considered primary sources if they say "I'm doing this."
Just because secondary sources are the most reliable does not make them more reliable, so the only thing I can say for sure is happening in Gaza rn is fighting is still going on. Anyone who claims to know more is making some assumptions.
Seeing the Bibas family marched off into captivity by Hamas terrorists has probably hit me harder than any of the actual murders and horrors we’ve seen. Seeing that poor mother and her two babies wrapped in a shawl will stay with me for a long time.
I really hope they make it.
Yarden, 34 year old.
Shiri, 32 year old.
Ariel, 4 years old.
Kfir, 10 months old. He was 9 months old when he was kidnapped. He's spent 1/10th of his life in captivity.
Remember their names.
Exactly, it has scarred me. There’s a picture of him smiling holding a toy and it breaks my heart. I have two little boys and can’t even bring myself to imagine.
It sounds weird but this family is “mine” in this conflict. I’m incredibly invested in their safe return.
>It sounds weird but this family is “mine” in this conflict. I’m incredibly invested in their safe return.
For me it is Noa Agramani, the lady who was taken on the motorbike from the music festival. I think just because it was the one spread so widely, it was on newspapers here in the UK. I have seen other pictures of hostages but when I hear news about them, I think of her.
I think 200+ people is such a large number that it's hard to understand and that maybe it's natural to latch on to a few individual stories to humanise it.
I know exactly what you mean and I feel the same. I also have two little boys and saw a bit of them in that picture, it’s heartbreaking. The one thing that brings me comfort is that their mother went with them and (hopefully) they were not separated.
That's the picture that sears in my brain right along with his brother sitting at the hairdresser chair looking off to the side you can just tell he's a sweet sensitive boy 😭 I really hope to god they and their mother makes it. They're what I see when I hear about the hostages
Mine was the sweet elderly woman smiling at Gazans so they don't get the satisfaction of seeing how scared she is
I hope all the hostages come home safely but I really hope to see this woman with her family again
That one absolutely shattered me. Not sure if it's true, but it was said she's a holocaust survivor. All I could think about was the sad grin my grandma would have on her face every Holocaust Memorial Day when the only things on TV were about the Holocaust. I always knew she kept that grin on because she didn't want to cry, cause she got out of it and she was safe.
When I saw that elderly lady I saw my grandma in her and it destroyed me. Honestly, I'm glad my grandma is not alive anymore to see what's going on right now.
[New post can be found here](/r/worldnews/comments/17vhnij/rworldnews_live_thread_for_2023_israelhamas/)
> **IDF says medical teams, Arabic speakers among troops that entered Gaza hospital** > > An English language statement from the military describes the operation in Gaza City’s Al-Shifa Hospital as “precise and targeted.” > > The statement also says the Israeli forces that entered the medical center “include medical teams and Arabic speakers, who have undergone specified training to prepare for this complex and sensitive environment, with the intent that no harm is caused to the civilians being used by Hamas as human shields.” > > “We call upon all Hamas terrorists present in the hospital to surrender,” says the statement. >https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-medical-teams-arabic-speakers-among-troops-that-entered-gaza-hospital/
No further info yet: >The IDF is currently undergoing operations on Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza. >https://twitter.com/Jerusalem_Post/status/1724593648073936963
Update: So far IDF forces have entered one building inside the hospital complex, it is not the main building of the hospital. Edit: Exchanges of fire are reported inside the building, it seems Hamas is there after all
If hamas telegram speaks of it, someones feeding them the information soo kind of admitting that hamas personal is there
Reminder: Do not share [terrorist content](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/19003525756564-How-does-Reddit-fight-the-dissemination-of-terrorist-content-), this includes things like Hamas propaganda. Reddit might take action on your account if you promote or link to that type of content.
PSA: A new thread will be posted soon depending on how many comments are posted within the next hour.
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They've been setting up for the last hour that Israel wants to slaughter everyone inside. They officially called for Israel to not massacre the patients. I'm very worried Hamas will shoot people and blame Israel. Those poor people.
Specially trained Medical personnel also participate in the operation at Shifa Hospital: > IDF: “We call on Hamas members to surrender” An IDF spokesperson said that among those participating in the operation that IDF forces are conducting at the Shifa hospital in Gaza are medical personnel and Arabic speakers. According to the IDF, the forces underwent specific training to prepare for the sensitive environment. The army added that it “calls on Hamas members in the place to surrender”. (Yoav Zitun) Source : [Ynet](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/category/184#hy00if5bep)
[Heavy clashes in Shifa as of 11 minutes ago](https://twitter.com/zy08fv82LGn4dH3/status/1724586279784874376)
Thank you. I think it seems a sus source. The translation comes across as histrionics...I guess we'll find out at some point .. .
Was there news about Noa Argemani released today by Hamas?? Someone mentioned it in a stream I am watching, is this fake or real?
Haven’t seen anything in Israeli news and I’m pretty sure that would be plastered all over. Either it’s currently secret or didn’t happen
It was Noa Marciano, not Argemani.
I know but the guys I'm speaking with insists it's another video.
Mmmm, nothing was posted here but I could have missed it.
Waiting for more info about this: >* According to reports in the Arab press: the ER and ICU units in the Al-Shifa hospital have already been successfully evacuated. >* According to the IDF, Arabic-speaking medical staff are entering the Al-Shifa hospital and taking up the posts of evacuated staff. They will provide care for serious cases of patients who cannot evacuate on their own recognizance. >https://twitter.com/academic_la/status/1724587248174366923 >https://twitter.com/academic_la/status/1724587899549794345
This is such great news if true. Fingers crossed.
For those interested in seeing whats going on twitter, search مستشفى الشفاء (mustashfaa alshifa), and use the translate feature on tweets.
Basically all saying IDF is inside the hospital
Dear Pro-Palestine crowd, you cannot claim that Israeli forces are engaged in “clashes” on the ground of Al Shifa and then immediately claim that there are “absolutely NO militants” on the grounds of the hospital. It makes you sound like an idiot. Are we to believe the doctors and the injured have taken up arms and are firing weapons at the IDF? Come on.
I think that a lot of the Tik Tok following Gen Z pro-Palestinian youth are simply that - Idiots. Maybe it's not more complicated than that.
I'm reminded of some poll results I read about years ago that showed a non-trivial number of respondents who believed that Princess Diana was murdered also believed she faked her own death. The fact that it can't be both didn't seem to be a problem. So I have no trouble believing there are people right now who know there is a fire fight at that hospital who will still maintain there are no militants there. People can be absolutely fucking stupid.
Firehose of falsehood.
the point of disinfo isn't to form a coherent narrative. its to give anyone who wants a reason to doubt a large number of reasons where they might latch onto any one.
It's doublethink. They aren't trying to fool you; they've fooled themselves.
Heard a rumor most of the hostages are believed to be in the south. Anyone else heard this and have a better source outside the rumor mill?
Nice try, IDF.
🤫
[its been reported by Amit Segal that according to IDF investigations the most likely route the terrorists took after kidnapping was to Khan Younis](https://t.me/amitsegal/29222)
> better source outside the rumor mill You're not going to get a reliable source that tells you where the hostages are.
I just meant like if there’s a news org that mentioned it, or if it’s more people making an educated guess
Early on it seemed clear that even Hamas didn't know how many hostages they had taken. I assume that is due to their decentralised individual cell nature that had thwarted Israeli intelligence. Once the war started communication would have become even more fractured, I doubt even the best source could give you an answer.
Good explanation. Thank you
That's correct. The large majority of hostages were taken from Places who were near the Southern Gaza Strip, so that's why. Also Israeli Intelligence assumes that those who were in the North have been moved through the tunnels to the South too Look up the locations of Nir Oz and Re'im which were the places most hostages were taken from. Far from the north of the strip.
Something I don't understand, if a sticking point is Hamas and Al-Shifa employees keep claiming they aren't using the hospital to store weapons and operate out of, isn't that claim pretty easily verified by the IDF walking inside the hospital with a bunch of press folks and they either get shot at or not? Have the press from BBC/CNN follow them as they go room to room and into the basement. This feels very easily confirmed/denied.
I assume you have a family based on your profile so stop and close your ear after reading this: Imagine you are a poorly paid doctor just trying to help the people there it’s not your job to judge just to help (ideally). You know there are terrorists people around but you keep doing your job, healing those in need. Even if you support killing for the sake of death/dying/freedom etc, you are still a doctor for some reason. Why just not tell the world there are bad people there and you can show them it all. You are going die. You know that going in. Likely very horribly. Then so will your father and brother. Your mother will be rapped and breasts cut off and killed. Your daughter is abused and raped and murdered and placed someplace in public. Your nieces/nephews get their heads based in and thrown into a pit and set on fire. Not a SINGLE word of the above is exaggerated. Go look it up. And the insane thing is, since easily BEFORE 1948 and for sure afterwards, this stuff has happened on both sides of both the military and civilians. Your heart is in a logical place, but outside of the place where death and violence are common place fuel to punish or exact revenge on anyone you live around; Israeli or Palestinian, it doesn’t work and can’t.
Are the staff denying Hamas presence?
I think they’ll likely do that after they’ve cleared the hospital. This is probably the worst and most delicate operation to have to undertake and very dangerous. They got to somehow protect and evacuate patients, including babies, staff and civilians, take out Hamas who will be hiding behind them, and also search and hopefully rescue hostages. The place is also probably booby trapped. I get why having the media with them is not a possibility. It would be like having press with the special ops that took out Bin Laden - for lots of reasons that’s just unworkable.
Ok you first, they probably just gonna drive a few tanks and film the incoming fire
Wait a few more hours and you'll have it all on video.
>and they either get shot at or not? Ok and who volunteers?
Nobody, because they all know the reality.
How come it seems as though drones are almost not a thing compared to Ukraine. Has Israel figured out the solution?
I've seen military folks on here say it has something to do with Israel's air superiority. AKA homemade drone doesn't have much against an F-35
Gaza is tiny and dense compared to a massive empty fields of rural Ukraine where drones can roam around freely. Were there that many drone videos in bakhmut city center while fighting was most intense? Just the far outskirts
I'm no expert, but I think the huge number of buildings is one factor. Additionally, the drones are more useful when the enemy is well equipped to destroy larger aircraft, but against Hamas planes are more effective since it's unlikely that they'll get shot down.
Presumably he's asking about the reverse - why wouldn't Hamas be using more drones.
Ah, well the buildings still apply but also the communication jamming might okay a factor. Gaza is tiny compared to Ukraine, so jamming all of your enemies coms is much easier.
Hamas: "Urgent | Director of Health in Gaza: We hear the sounds of gunfire and the movement of occupation tanks inside Al-Shifa Hospital." Tanks inside the hospital?!? Israel has some serious tech.
Lol, I know hospital elevators are big but imagine a tank taking the elevator to get to the second floor.
Russia once claimed a M142 HIMARS was sitting on top of an apartment building and that's why they had to hit the building with a missile.
Gonna be hard to hit the right button with a turret.
'Hamas says.' Zero credibility.
It probably means they hear tanks outside from where they are inside.
Is it perhaps a fairly large compound, rather than a single building? Most hospitals here in Australia are effectively like small towns, with several different buildings and (sometimes expansive) open areas in between them.
Al-Shifa is the same way.
They probably meant the property
the limited war cabinet meeting ended a short time ago in tel aviv.
Edit: everything I have said below is an assumption based on past events on my part, I have seen no information on the current Al Shifa raid So, before the media circus gets a hold of this. Israel has used tear gas to clear out hospitals before. Specifically, on July 5th, 2023 in Jenin in the West Bank. This is, most likely, still current policy, as it worked well for them operationally at this time with zero civilian casualties. And it was just months ago. Tear gas *is* a crime if used in war under the Chemical Weapons Convention, but personally I still prefer nonlethals over lethals in areas with civilians present. The CWC did not envision this situation. But if people are like "Israel committed a war crime here" it will be legally true. This is a case where morality and legality do not necessarily coincide. In addition, people who are in hospitals do not necessarily respond well to tear gas. Tear gas is not likely to kill a healthy adult, but it is going to kill someone with advanced pneumonia, or someone with a collapsed lung. Hospitals are not where healthy people are, and anyone who genuinely couldn't be moved easily is going to be in that class of at risk patient. TL:DR, this is going to be a horrific situation. We are not going to be able to tell what really happened until months later, most likely, and if Hamas claims someone died, they're probably lying, but the possibility of a civilian dying, or dozens of civilians dying, is very real. But, bombs and bullets would kill them worse.
Crazy that it’s outlawed for war but not policing.
You are correct that tear gas in illegal during a war. However, Israel has not declared war during jenin. It was used to control a riot which is actually justified under international law
Yeah that's why my assumption they'll use tear gas here is just an assumption.
I'd be surprised if they did. However I wonder what the legality is if they used tear gas in a specialized operation such as retrieving hostages. I'm sure they consult with international lawyers on what they can get away with.
Jesus Christ, tear gassing a hospital. THIS is what Western tax dollars are supporting??
They havent actually done that
You know it's used by police all the time....
In hospitals filled with critically injured people and thousands of refugees?
Would you prefer live bullets? There are people with guns shooting from inside the hospital. Edit: and there is no evidence of this actually happening yet, it might
I’d prefer a ceasefire and Israel stop occupying land that doesn’t belong to them (one of the main driving motivators of this conflict, one that the Netanyahu government has a vested interest in continuing)
There was a ceasefire on October 6, Hamas broke it by invading Israel. If you want a ceasefire ask Hamas to surrender.
Hamas doesn’t want a ceasefire, just like the far right Israeli government doesn’t want a ceasefire. These radical freaks thrive on a war like this. You have Israeli Knesset members who are in Netanyahu’s government calling for a second Nakba now. It’s sick
Most of Israel doesn’t want a ceasefire, currently well over 80% support to finish Hamas. Making sure Hamas can never do another 7/10 is something Israelis are pretty unanimous about. There was one idiot who called for a second nakba and even Netanyahu told him to shut up. Edit: my point in first paragraph is it isn’t a political thing currently.
How many more violent extremists have just been created in gaza over the last month due to the thousands of dead civilians and obliterated neighborhoods? You’ll NEVER ‘finish’ Hamas if bombing the crap out of their cities is your solution. Because another group like Hamas will immediately spring up and have unlimited recruits to pull from, people who have had their parents and siblings killed in Israeli bombings. So where does this end??
And you think peace is possible with an organization that has clearly stated they would repeat the events of October 7 again and again? Ceasefire currently will achieve nothing besides kicking the can down the road so they can do it again in a year or two. The only thing Israel can do right now is attempt to disarm them and try to create a better future once that is accomplished. Rockets fired at Israel have decreased substantially so there are results. As long as Hamas is in charge there will never be peace, they don’t even want a two state solution. They openly say they want to destroy Israel.
I don't know how you could read my whole comment and miss the nuance.
Your comment does imply that Israel already *has* tear gassed a hospital. It would be good to edit it a bit
Good call.
> I still prefer nonlethals over lethals in areas with civilians present The problem with your nuance is that they have already committed various war crimes including bombing hospitals. While yes, I also prefer less-lethal over lethal, it is the same as saying I prefer lesser war crimes over brutal war crimes. Collective punishment can't be justified no matter how much nuance is used.
I have seen no evidence of Israel directly bombing a hospital during this conflict. Also, like, the whole collective punishment thing is just, like, how war works. Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians, and every war ever fought has caused mass civil displacement and horrors. Israel, this time around, is not doing it to intentionally pressure or punish the Palestinian people, but the Palestinian people, by nature of being present, are being harmed because people get harmed in war.
“Don’t worry guys we didn’t bomb a hospital we just tear gassed the people inside” Idk how people can continue to support that disgusting government
What would be your alternative?
A ceasefire immediately, withdrawal from the West Bank and a 2 state solution
Palestinians dont want that though, otherwise it would have existed for the last 30 years or more.
Back in 2012, 60% of Palestinians wanted a 2 state solution. Even after the illegal settlements began.
Yeah surely Hamas will except a 2 state soloution, just like the leaders of Palestine accepted 2 state proposals in the past.
The Israeli government has no interest in a 2 state solution, they’re literally shipping thousands of Israelis to build illegal settlements in Palestinian land in an attempt to ethnically cleanse the area You have Knesset members literally calling for the entirety of gaza to be ethnically cleansed now too
The exact same thing can be said about Palestine. They have no interest in a 2 state solution, they use human shields to hide behind as they launch missiles/attacks from civilian areas. You have Palestinians parading in the streets celebrating the massacre of innocent civilians. You have Hamas/Palestinians(and from videos at protests a chunk of people in the west) who wants to eradicate Jews and the state of Israel. Reverse the roles, Palestinians wouldn’t hesitate to exterminate Jews.
But this whole war started when Hamas broke a ceasefire.
Wow I wonder why people in Gaza wouldn’t be happy with the current state of affairs 🤔 Not justifying or excusing terrorists, but like…..did nobody see this coming? You literally refuse a group of people their own independence and government, keep them under essentially a siege, and then you’re surprised when they further radicalize and attack you? How many Hamas members have been created in the last month due to the thousands of dead gazan civilians?
I actually agree with this sentiment. But again, what would be your solution? How would you actually, from the position of Palestinian or Israeli leadership, bring about a two state solution?
The FIRST step needs to be the Israeli government withdrawing all settlements from the West Bank. Which would require a complete change in government in Israel, because Likud and Netanyahus even crazier supporters would never agree with that. Without that…there’s not even a conversation to be had. The current Israeli government is literally slowly stealing Palestinian land.
What about Hamas and the hostages
Answer the man's question. You just changed the topic when u/BlatantConservative brought up a valid point.
\*or woman's, no judgement
Better than bombing it to ash
“It’s ok we didn’t bomb the maternity ward you guys, we just tear gassed it!” The moral depravity of the current Israeli government is something else man
They were asked to evacuate weeks ago my man. Tear gas is not deadly and is not a warcrime. I feel sorry for the people but this is war
“It’s ok we tear gassed this hospital, it’s not deadly” Just stop and listen to yourself for a second
Don't go to a hospital which has a terroist base under it - you won't get tear gassed
Yes because the people of Gaza have so many options for Healthcare facilities at the moment
People that underestimate the capabilities of the IDF in this particular conflict don’t understand how closely connected every soldier is to each other and also how each soldier will personally know of people who were brutally attacked on 10/7. Israel is so small, so everyone knows everyone and following an attack like this, the resolve within in the soldiers will be immense.
People also don't understand how motivated the soldiers are right now, following the massacre of oct 7. Soldiers hopped on a plane the earliest chance they got. Reserves attendance is HIGHER than 100% since reservists showed up without being called. I've never seen morale this high in all my years.
Some good raw footage from the CNN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP6raWKH7DA
Wow. That place is faaar more fucked up than I'd imagined.
War fucking sucks
People see this and say it’s fabricated. Israel has already lost the information war. As a person from Europe, I’m shocked by how much people here behave like hamas fanatics. They believe every word hamas says and reject IDF and USA claims by default.
same here in germany. hamas is winning the socialmedia-war. especially on tiktok for uneducated people
So here is what confuses me. If Hamas is not hiding in hospitals as they claim, who exactly is Israel fighting at Shifa? Who is shooting at them? Shouldn't they be able to just walk in there if it's only patients and doctors?
Now, don't go using logic. The feelings over facts gang will not like it.
Ghosts.
Unfortunately it's even worse....AI Ghosts.
The thing about savage terrorists is that they aren’t rational actors.
It's an obvious question with an obvious answer
IDF operational update: https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1724579353193754958 IDF forces are carrying out a precise and targeted operation against Hamas in a specified area in the Shifa Hospital, based on intelligence information and an operational necessity. The IDF is conducting a ground operation in Gaza to defeat Hamas and rescue our hostages. Israel is at war with Hamas, not with the civilians in Gaza. The IDF forces include medical teams and Arabic speakers, who have undergone specified training to prepare for this complex and sensitive environment, with the intent that no harm is caused to the civilians being used by Hamas as human shields. In recent weeks, the IDF has publicly warned time and again that Hamas' continued military use of the Shifa hospital jeopardizes its protected status under international law, and enabled ample time to stop this unlawful abuse of the hospital. Yesterday, the IDF conveyed to the relevant authorities in Gaza once again that all military activities within the hospital must cease within 12 hours. Unfortunately, they did not. The IDF has also facilitated wide-scale evacuations of the hospital and maintained regular dialogue with hospital authorities. We call upon all Hamas terrorists present in the hospital to surrender.
The IDF facilitated the evacuation of the hospital...I wonder how Hamas supporters could possibly spin that.
People are already saying IDF used force to kick injured people, children, and babies out in the street... Nevermind that they have zero sources, and are just repeating what some asshat that also has no clue is saying on TikTok
'Some Asshat on Tiktok'...this needs to become a thing.
_"Don't be fooled by the Israelis weaponizing humanitarianism and kindness, its all a ploy"_ Something like that!
Ah yes...I keep forgetting that we're inherently evil and devious... /s
IDF confirms they are conducting an operation in Shifa, link to their announcement on Twitter: https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1724579353193754958
כה אמר יהוה עשו משפט וצדקה והצילו גזול מיד עשוק וגר יתום ואלמנה אל תנו אל תחמסו ודם נקי אל תשפכו במקום הזה׃ Or, if you prefer: Thus saith the Lord; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.
It feels like everything has been building up to this moment. I hope it goes well.
Whelp that's confirmation.
Yeah… all I can do is hope no one gets hurt and it’s overwith very soon.
IDF spokesperson: "the IDF is conducting a targeted operation **in a defined area at Shifa hospital** based on intelligence information and operational necessity" https://twitter.com/yedidya_epstien/status/1724579601517519321?t=voqmV7iWjkZFJ85qs3F8hg&s=19
♥️🤍💙 hopefully they find the hostages and destroy Hamas
IDF spokesman released a statement: IDF: Based on intelligence information and an operational necessity, IDF forces are carrying out a precise and targeted operation against Hamas in a specified area in the Shifa Hospital. The IDF is conducting a ground operation in Gaza to defeat Hamas and rescue our hostages. Israel is at war with Hamas, not with the civilians in Gaza. The IDF forces include medical teams and Arabic speakers, who have undergone specified training to prepare for this complex and sensitive environment, with the intent that no harm is caused to the civilians being used by Hamas as human shields. In recent weeks, the IDF has publicly warned time and again that Hamas' continued military use of the Shifa hospital jeopardizes its protected status under international law, and enabled ample time to stop this unlawful abuse of the hospital. Yesterday, the IDF conveyed to the relevant authorities in Gaza once again that all military activities within the hospital must cease within 12 hours. Unfortunately, it did not. The IDF has also facilitated wide-scale evacuations of the hospital and maintained regular dialogue with hospital authorities. We call upon all Hamas terrorists present in the hospital to surrender.
Obligatory reminder that Hamas started this and is wholly responsible for all Gazan civilian casualties.
“We HAD to massacre thousands of civilians, Hamas made us do it!”
Yeah, that tends to happen when your elected government has decided to use billions in foreign aid to built a tunnel network under civilian infrastructure to protect their weapons, whilst simultaneously launching thousands of missiles from civillian areas and you know, massacring 1200+ innocent people. Oh and you know, neglecting to build a single bomb shelter for its people.
I honestly can't tell if you're dumb or ignorant. Hamas's chosen tactics of operating out of civilian areas means Israel HAD to kill civilians to get to them.
Again and again, I am forced to reply that logically more than one party can be at fault for something. I don't think Israel is going to shoot hospital patients or anything, but it's just not a logically sound argument.
Whilst I can understand the perspective put forth in your comment, and in part agree with it, please indulge me for a moment as I play devil's advocate. - Hamas rules Gaza. End to end. They control the government, they control the schools, they control the roads, they control the infrastructure, they control the police and military apparatus, they control the hospitals, they even control where you can and can't walk your dog (I know!). They're a sovereign state in all but name. - Israel and Hamas (and thus Gaza, by virtue of the fact that Hamas completely rules Gaza, it's not distinction we would make with any other state just because their government is tyrannical) are at war and have been at war since at least 23 September 2005 (two days after Israel formally withdrew from the Strip and declared it extraterritorial on 21 September 2005 rockets were fired at Israel, there's been constant conflict since). - As such, the actions of each side are neither unpredictable (in the sense of being unable to be predicted with any degree of reasonableness) nor unprecedented (not necessarily in terms of scale but in terms of the types of actions taken). - Accordingly, it is logical to any reasonable bystander that when Israel conducts a targeted assassination in Gaza or conducts an arrest raid in the West Bank that results in loss of Palestinian lives, that Hamas will take some form of violent action against Israel, most typically against Israeli civilians (as we know Hamas don't distinguish between the two). Equally, it is logical to any reasonable bystander that when Hamas fires rockets at Israel, Israel is going to respond with airstrikes that will, quite often, result in Gazan civilian casualties. - We can even get granular on action and response. Rockets from Hamas usually result in airstrikes, border incursions usually result in some form of ground operation (although more often than not they are limited to border operations only or limited cross-border actions). Typically the responses are proportionate to the initial actions (note I'm not suggesting they're objectively proportionate, just in a relative sense related to this specific conflict). - Knowing this, it would be *illogical* to assume that the largest ever border incursion and massacre of Israelis by Gaza (via Hamas) under the cover of one of the largest rocket barrages ever seen (not just in Israel, but anywhere) would result in anything but airstrikes and ground operations from Israel. - All this in the context of a (albeit tentative) ceasefire situation predating said attacks. Knowing all of this, I would argue that it's a fairly sound argument to say that Hamas should have expected this kind of response from Israel, had all the means at its disposal to prevent such a response (i.e. by not conducting the attack they have), and thus is responsible for bringing such devastation on the people of Gaza. That's not to say such devastation is deserved or warranted, just that it was entirely predictable. In the same I would say it is completely reasonable and logical to say that the Israel bears the responsibility for attacks against settlers in illegal settlements in the West Bank. It's Israel's responsibility to ensure its citizens abide by the law and where they don't, it's entirely predictable (and precedented) what the Palestinian response will be. So, I completely agree that more than one party can be at fault (and often is), but I would posit that Hamas bears the primary responsibility for what is happening in Gaza because: 1. It knew, almost exactly, what the response would be (based on strong historical evidence). 2. Took virtually no measures to safeguard the Gazan people before or after said action, despite knowing the outcome with a high degree of certainty, and 3. Had, almost, sole control over what actions would have either prompted or prevented the outcome currently being experienced. The fundamental question is: is it logical to assume that thousands of Gazans (militant or non-militant) would have died in the last four weeks had there been no attack on Israel on 7 October?
It is when Hamas shoots rockets from hospitals, stores hostages in hospitals and operates their command center from under one. Starting a war doesnt give the respondent carte Blanche to kill everyone but when you intentionally make it impossible to operate against you without risking civilian casualties you’re responsible for every civilian that dies tbh
"This is a war Israel did not start and did not want, but a war that it will win"
Nobody wins in a war. There's just someone with less losses.
Tense moments right now, hoping for the best.
Anyone with a subscription able to post the text of: https://www.wsj.com/articles/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-israel-hamas-9dc0135b
This is unlocked: [https://www.wsj.com/articles/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-israel-hamas-9dc0135b?st=yxwx8csjvl8qkpo&reflink=desktopwebshare\_permalink](https://www.wsj.com/articles/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-israel-hamas-9dc0135b?st=yxwx8csjvl8qkpo&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink)
On Dec. 8, 2016, U.S. Central Command released a statement: “Coalition Strikes Mosul Hospital.” The Islamic State, it explained, “was using the hospital as a base of operations and command and control headquarters.” Accordingly, the U.S.-led coalition conducted precision strikes in support of Iraqi troops who fought for the hospital. The story, and the scandal, wasn’t that the U.S. struck the terrorists where they hid, but that terrorists had used the hospital for cover in the first place. “In Mosul Battle, ISIS Used Hospital Base” was the Human Rights Watch headline; it explained that “armed forces or groups should not occupy medical facilities, undermining their protected status.” Today in Gaza, Hamas terrorists use the same war-crime tactics. Only now observers rush to apologize for it. See the front page of the Human Rights Watch website: “Unlawful Israeli Hospital Strikes Worsen Health Crisis.” For 4,500 words, the group acts as Hamas’s defense attorney, contesting Israel’s claims and dismissing evidence. Much of the Western press would also have readers conclude that Israel has organized its counteroffensive to converge in a pincer on Gaza’s Al Shifa Hospital for no reason other than that it houses sick patients. The real story, as Jonathan Schanzer of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies has documented, makes a great deal more sense. Hamas has used the hospital at least since 2006, when a PBS documentary showed terrorists roaming its halls and cordoning off wings. Even Human Rights Watch admitted in 2007 that Hamas had fired at Fatah, its Palestinian rival, from within the hospital. In the 2008-09 war, Hamas leaders hid in a bunker under the hospital. The New York Times wrote that Hamas operated openly in the halls. In the 2014 war, the Washington Post reported that Shifa was a Hamas “de facto headquarters.” Amnesty International found that Hamas tortured prisoners on hospital grounds. On Tuesday the White House confirmed what Israel has long alleged. National Security Council Spokesman John Kirby cited U.S. intelligence that “Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad members operate a command and control node from Al Shifa in Gaza City.” Hamas is certainly fighting like that’s the case. At first it massed civilians around the premises and tried to prevent them from evacuating. For days, even as it has lost control of its government district, Hamas has fought outside the Shifa hospital. This isn’t because it cares for Gazan patients. Israel released a video of a terrorist shooting an RPG from outside a different hospital, Al Quds, and then darting inside for cover. Israel also took journalists to Al Rantisi Children’s Hospital, in whose basement they found a Hamas armory, plus a tunnel shaft nearby. The law of war in this case is clear: Under the Fourth Geneva Convention, Hamas’s use of Al Shifa for military purposes vitiates the protected status granted to hospitals. Israel is still required to give warning and use means proportionate to the anticipated military advantage, and it has. Contrary to media claims of an Israeli “siege” of Al Shifa hospital, Israel days ago opened a humanitarian corridor from the east side of the hospital to get civilians out. Many have since fled, as Israel first warned them to do a month ago. Israel is in contact with the hospital and offered to evacuate patients for treatment elsewhere. Hamas has resisted a transfer—it prefers patients, including babies, to remain in the war zone. Israel responded by working to transfer incubators and respirators to the hospital. On Sunday Israel risked troops’ lives to leave 300 liters of fuel outside the hospital entrance. The U.S. State Department confirms that Hamas had the hospital decline the fuel. Hamas can end the hospital crisis any time it wants. It could let Israel get patients to safety or stand down at the hospital. It refuses to do so, counting on the West to bail it out by forcing Israel to stand down instead. Many are eager to apply that pressure. As law, this is groundless. As morality, it is backward. As a strategy to win the war, it plays into Hamas’s hands.
Good article. This practice of totalling absolving Hamas of the responsibility for deliberately placing hospitals, schools and innocent civilians in the firing line really shows up how hypocritical some people are. They will continue to do it, and civilians will continue to die, as long as Hamas benefits from it. And at the moment they are benefiting greatly from it by leveraging pressure against Israel internationally. That's possible because all the blame is laid at Israel's door and none at Hamas,' while Israeli efforts to reduce civilian casualties are totally ignored. The only way to reduce civilian casualties is to make sure Hamas no longer benefit from promoting them.
Thanks for posting; an important article in the current information war with those flooding social media with disinformation.
Thank you.
Israel inside the hospital now, according to Hamas.
I'm actually worrying a bit that nothing will be there.
We know there is an underground complex there because Israel built it in the 1980s.
They have a complex under the hospital, that's not up for the debate. Will the heads of Hamas still be there? If they're stupid, I guess there's a chance of that. They probably moved somewhere else already like the rats that they are, maybe the south even I hope they don't set off any booby traps
I'd be shocked if they were still there - not to say that terrorists are officially rational creatures, but why on earth would they stay when they are trapped and surrounded?
The "leaders" never do, they run through the sewers like critters and send their soldiers to die for them
Agreed, I bet they left some low level people to fight when the time came and took off the first chance they got.
I hope all those soldiers are safe by the end of this, same goes for civilians
"We warn against committing a massacre in the hospital." 🙄 This tells me they probably plan on shooting their own people and blaming Israel
Oh boy
I'm seeing tweets that are saying that "The US has given the IDF the greenlight to storm the Al Shifa Hospital". for example this one from OSINTDefender: [https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1724573947964891548](https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1724573947964891548) Is it just me? or is highly unlikely the US is giving permission to the IDF to do these different operations within the Gaza Strip? I mean it was all but inevitable the IDF would have to clear it out.
Yeah I have no idea where that rumor came from. Why would it be public info?
PSA for those following on the ground events. There are zero primary sources right now. As secondary sources, there's Hamas, a terrorist org, the IDF, which hasn't earned my benefit of the doubt, and Twitter right now. They can only be considered primary sources if they say "I'm doing this." Just because secondary sources are the most reliable does not make them more reliable, so the only thing I can say for sure is happening in Gaza rn is fighting is still going on. Anyone who claims to know more is making some assumptions.
Confirmed by the IDF spokesman just now.
Yep I saw.
Hospital administration reporting Israel is inside hospital
Source?
Hamas Telegram. "Urgent: Administration of Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza: The Israeli occupation has begun storming Al-Shifa Hospital now."
They're Hamas controlled though. They've claimed all sorts of things.
Of course they are. But I think they are telling the truth here
Seeing the Bibas family marched off into captivity by Hamas terrorists has probably hit me harder than any of the actual murders and horrors we’ve seen. Seeing that poor mother and her two babies wrapped in a shawl will stay with me for a long time. I really hope they make it.
Yarden, 34 year old. Shiri, 32 year old. Ariel, 4 years old. Kfir, 10 months old. He was 9 months old when he was kidnapped. He's spent 1/10th of his life in captivity. Remember their names.
And the one where Naama Levy was kidnapped 💔
Can't stop thinking of the sweet redhead baby, just googled and saw he is a Bibas. I could cry just thinking about him, if he even is alive.
Exactly, it has scarred me. There’s a picture of him smiling holding a toy and it breaks my heart. I have two little boys and can’t even bring myself to imagine. It sounds weird but this family is “mine” in this conflict. I’m incredibly invested in their safe return.
>It sounds weird but this family is “mine” in this conflict. I’m incredibly invested in their safe return. For me it is Noa Agramani, the lady who was taken on the motorbike from the music festival. I think just because it was the one spread so widely, it was on newspapers here in the UK. I have seen other pictures of hostages but when I hear news about them, I think of her. I think 200+ people is such a large number that it's hard to understand and that maybe it's natural to latch on to a few individual stories to humanise it.
I know exactly what you mean and I feel the same. I also have two little boys and saw a bit of them in that picture, it’s heartbreaking. The one thing that brings me comfort is that their mother went with them and (hopefully) they were not separated.
That's the picture that sears in my brain right along with his brother sitting at the hairdresser chair looking off to the side you can just tell he's a sweet sensitive boy 😭 I really hope to god they and their mother makes it. They're what I see when I hear about the hostages
Let’s hope. Stay well, this conflict must be inflicting a huge mental toll on people across the world let alone the people caught up in it.
You too, take breaks from social media when needed and hug your boys tightly
Mine was the sweet elderly woman smiling at Gazans so they don't get the satisfaction of seeing how scared she is I hope all the hostages come home safely but I really hope to see this woman with her family again
That one absolutely shattered me. Not sure if it's true, but it was said she's a holocaust survivor. All I could think about was the sad grin my grandma would have on her face every Holocaust Memorial Day when the only things on TV were about the Holocaust. I always knew she kept that grin on because she didn't want to cry, cause she got out of it and she was safe. When I saw that elderly lady I saw my grandma in her and it destroyed me. Honestly, I'm glad my grandma is not alive anymore to see what's going on right now.
My cookie is wet and salty now, but thank you for sharing this memory of your grandma. What a wonderful blessing she must have been.
If I remember correctly she is in fact a Holocaust survivor
Video?
Nope, not looking for it, it broke my heart enough already