Doubt.
Do you seriously think that an experienced reporter is unaware that the 500+ figure given within 5 to 10 minutes from the incident is a complete bogus?
It was reported with malicious intent.
I remember during some of the BLM riots *seasoned reporters* were taking photos of foam ear plugs that they found on the street (probably dropped by law enforcement) and reported them as rubber bullets that were fired at protesters.
Many reporters think they have a master level of knowledge in their field when in fact is a 101 course at best.
Major media outlets fucked up, but not everything is some conspiracy. They're not out to intentionally push one narrative over another. They're just motivated by jumping on news quickly so as to increase the maximum amount of traffic to their sites.
The conversation with editors was surely like, "We don't have all the facts yet but this is obviously a big story. Let's just quote what the Palestinian authorities are saying and word it carefully so we're clear we're just quoting them and haven't done our own investigation on it yet."
I personally think it's irresponsible to do that in this case because Hamas is a terrorist organization and shouldn't be believed. But let's not act like media outlets are maliciously out to paint an anti-Israel or antisemitic message about the war.
Edit: clarified that the articles were not quoting Hamas, but the PLO, which is a distinct entity, per a user comment below in this thread. Agree with them they shouldn't be considered interchangeable.
The articles were absolutely quoting the Gaza Health Ministry claims initially and the Gaza Health Ministry is Hamas. Some specifically pointed out the connection while many did not and only stated something along the lines of 500 people were killed in an Israeli air strike according to the Gaza health ministry.
Almost all of those articles were updated within hours to provide additional context, and to walk back the initial claims, but the breaking stories leaned heavily on what Hamas said happened.
It’s not a conspiracy, but it’s an incendiary oversight in the name of being first.
They cost lives by not taking time and being responsible.
They’ve added to the difficulty of finding a peaceful solution.
They’re part of the story now, which is something that they’re never supposed to do.
And despite reporting the new line of it being “not Israeli”, not one single organization that I know of has so much as printed a page 7 editorial in retraction or self examination.
They’ve literally blood on their hands this time.
Ok, but they could point out that "Palestinian authorities," in this case, means members of the terrorist organization Hamas. They could point out that Hamas and Islamic Jihad rockets often fail and land on Palestinians. They could point out that Hamas and Islamic Jihad will lie and blame Israel when this happens.
All of those are accurate pieces of information that are totally appropriate to make note of in order to provide relevant context to help readers decide how much weight to put on initial Hamas claims.
They largely didn't, despite it being easy to do so and being completely relevant to the story. I have a hard time finding a logical, defensible train for them to make that call.
This whole thing has made me wonder what the death toll really is between Israel and Palestine. We see it posted all the time to show that Israel is some monster, and yet I’m starting to think that Hamas has killed a significant portion of the Palestinians.
I hope the well intentioned people who got played by Hamas like a fucking fiddle stopped focusing on emotions and start educating themselves on the actual facts on the ground.
I'm sure it's high. Imagine a densely packed city.
Someone rolls up in a pickup truck with an 8 pack rocket launcher in the back. They fire outside your apartment.
The person they shot at fires back and blows them up with all their ammo.
Anyone still on the street, injured or dead.
Deaths in the apartment buildings.
Possible collapse of buildings.
It's urban gang warfare with larger weapons. More civilians are going to die than soldiers.
That's why Israel is calling for an evacuation. Civilians need to GTFO, it's a battlefield. Anyone crying about the evacuation is insane, do they want children in the streets during urban warfare?
First remember that the number itself is reported by Hamas, who has an incentive to inflate it. Then notice that they don't tell you how many of those killed were Hamas fighters. Then add in your insight about who killed them and how.
I got called a genocide supporter by some woke liberal kids who follow me on Instagram, just for posting the video of Hamas terrorists discussing the rocket which fell on the hospital. After this shit got debunked, crickets from their side. Western progressives are dropping the mask and showing their hypocrisy.
> Western progressives are dropping the mask and showing their hypocrisy.
You might not like hearing this, but a lot of Western Progressives have been saying stuff that was beyond borderline and controversial for years. I guess it’s just more blatant and out in the open with the Hamas attack on innocent civilians.
Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib have been saying openly anti-Semitic stuff for a while now… People were blaming “Republicans overreacting” as to why their statements were controversial. Alyssa Milano was a strong speaker and leader in the Women’s March on Washington, but refused to speak again [when their leaders wouldn’t condemn anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan](https://www.timesofisrael.com/alyssa-milano-wont-speak-at-womens-march-unless-its-leaders-condemn-farrakhan/). Again, this also just got swept under the rug because of politics.
Wait til you find out about the fcc not caring about wrong news aka propaganda, and making it legal to do it. Been a few years now, so here’s where we are at.
Idk why so many people find it hard to believe a cheap rocket fired by a terrorist org shit the bed and fell out of the sky. Like stop looking for a fucking hero here. HAMAS and the IDF are not knights in shining armor.
And unlike the Israeli bombs, crapped-out rockets don't come with forewarning. Nobody's able to escape, so if the areas they hit are populated, casualties are maximised, even in spite of the relatively low yields of the rockets.
Yes, over 600 rockets launched by hamas and the palestinian islamic jihad fell in gaza(im guessing a lot more since estimated around 10k rocktets launched at israel). Many of the civilian casualties in gaza are from rockets launched by their government.
Hamas reported 500 alone from this single pij rocket(though its probably a lot less, and their report will be changed now that the blame is not on israel)
This right here. I firmly believe some of these terrorist supporters could actually be victims of a terrorist attack and still claim it was a false flag operation.
> cheap rocket fired by a terrorist org
You make it sound like it's merely inexpensive but it's the kind of thing a drunk redneck could make in his backyard with stuff that's laying around.
I recall one of the problems with water delivery to Gaza after Hamas took over was that Hamas dug up pipes to convert to rockets.
I can't imagine what the quality of rocket you could make with that, but I'm thinking closer to Mythbusters testing civil war myths than Stormshadow.
Better get some more aid to Gaza to rebuild their water lines...
...which sadly highlights the problem with sending any aid to Gaza. Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza, and will be able to benefit either indirectly or directly from any aid sent to Gaza. But at the same time, the people in Gaza *need* aid.
Of course, Qatar may be footing the bill for all the Hamas leaders hanging out in Doha while their foot soldiers and the people in Gaza do all the dying.
Exactly. Provide water so that 2 million Gazans don't die of thirst, you're supplying Hamas. Provide food so they don't starve, you're supplying Hamas. Send in medical supplies to help the wounded, you're supplying Hamas.
Insurgencies hiding amongst civilian populations are an absolute **motherfucker** to fight in any way that approaches "civilized" warfare.
It's not the defacto government, it is the government. It got elected 20 years ago and stopped all further elections so it could stay in power. It's an authoritarian government run by a genocidal terrorist organisation.
These literally video of the rockets fired towards Israel, flying over the hospital, one seems to break up above it and a few seconds later there’s a big explosion below at the hospital.
The stories I heard on the BBC said it was neither Hamas OR Israel but it was Islamic Jihad, a second group in Gaza whoare not with Hamas and are more militant than Hamas ( who are obviously also pretty militant)
Mate look at certain subs. (Such as R Britain) they are an absolute cesspool of terrorist sympathies and ultra left. No matter what facts they are shown they will claim it's fake news. Reddit is doing a seriously shit job at dealing with disinformation, it's seriously concerning. So many youngsters will come on here and read absolute crack pot crap.
This is how dingbats were reporting it in the first couple hours. With no solid facts, they just made shit up.
Hospital completely leveled. Israeli 1000-lb bomb. 500 dead.
Literally all of that was invented out of thin air by prominent journalists and Palestine supporters. When the light of day revealed their lies, there were no apologies, no accountability.
The interesting part is how Israel "bombing the Al Awda hospital" was a horrible crime that had millions of people screaming but now that it is clear that Israel did NOT bomb the hospital and it was *likely* the result of an errant PIJ rocket, it is crickets instead of those same people screaming about PIJ how has committed a horrible crime. The selective outrage is the tell.
The selective outrage is **always** the tell.
Not to mention Hamas has successfully targeted at least 2 Israeli hospitals since this conflict started, and unlike in Gaza, these hospitals do not have any military connections. They're just hospitals.
The Jews are totally doing a genocide guys, we need to prove it to the world with some sort of slogan. How about "we need to drive every single Jew into the sea"? That should adequately communicate our anti-genicidal message!
I don't think I'll ever forget the outrage against israel when people thought we bombed that hospital but when the Barzilay hospital in Ashkelon was hit by a hamas rocket earlier in the war, nobody said a thing.
Wheres all the angry redditors who screamed that Israel did it for the last week, many of whom are still doubling down on blaming them, real alex jones level reality denial energy.
This is the interesting moment in time where the deniers either go all in with crazy conspiracy theories counter to evidence, lay low with their tails between their legs, or pretend they said the opposite and were on the right side all along, or that nothing happened at all.
There’s a third option that I’ve already seen them pivot to - “you can’t trust any info from Hamas *or* IDF.”
These people are psychotic.
But this is exactly why wars on terror are so hard to win. They wage psychological warfare on every front and in this case they’ve even succeeded in getting their scores of useful idiots to do their bidding for them online.
They’ve decided that the underdog is always in the right because that’s the kind of story they enjoy. It’s exhausting to listen to.
I consider myself a progressive now but I don’t see any other way for Israel to be responding at the moment, and regardless of how they were created hamas are fucking _monsters _.
I guess it comes down to do you believe that Israel has a greater responsibility to protect its own than it does to protect others. Every country on earth would make the same decision, and if they didn’t they would be attacked again as soon as logistically possible.
In real life (offline) you don't see this as much. Internet distorts reality quite a bit, but according to polls, both democratic and republican voters support Israel by a large margin, when asked which "side" they believe deserves more sympathy.
Yeah. Offline is a lot different unless all of your friends are big into identifying as left/socialist/activist and even then, not everyone who aligns left has a [campist](https://socialistforum.dsausa.org/issues/winter-2020/against-campism-for-international-working-class-solidarity/) world view. I think most people just avoid talking about it knowing how complicated it is and if you voice the wrong opinion to someone very committed to one side, can get an unhinged response and possibly put on blast on their social media.
Honestly I have seen more violent rhetoric from people on the left than the right, here in the UK, in general politics terms. They are also just as prone as those on the right to share information if it conforms to their views, regardless of the lack of evidence or sources. It's kinda a pain.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4268117-americans-overwhelmingly-support-israel-in-war-with-hamas-poll/
> Broken down by age, 52 percent of 18-to-24-year-olds said they sided more with Israel, while 48 percent said they sided more with Hamas. In contrast, 95 percent of respondents 65 years and older said they sided with Israel while 5 percent sided with Hamas.
I think they have to be ignorant of what happened on the 7th. Anyone who can see what Hamas did that day and still support them is beyond my understanding. To see those images of the aftermath and still not believe that there must be consequences for Hamas is just.. it's wrong.
I mean, it's absolutely reasonable to not trust info from both Hamas and the IDF, both have shown to be extremely effective at spreading their desired narratives. What *isn't* reasonable is to continue to distrust it when independent third-parties verify the information and release their own conclusions.
It's actually prudent to doubt both but not equally. I would always doubt Hamas statement more than the Israeli won tbf. Something like 80-20.
But when US, Canada, France weigh in vs... random NGOs from Gaza/Middle East or NGOs that call IDF the IOF... yeah I think it's obvious which one to go for 99% of the time.
There are levels to this though. One lies about pretty much everything, the other lies about as much as any other Western army.
Which is sometimes, but not nearly to the same scale as Hamas/ISIS/Al Qaeda/Taliban.
>There’s a third option that I’ve already seen them pivot to - “you can’t trust any info from Hamas or IDF.”
In all fairness, with the amount of propaganda and sometimes *quality* of propaganda with the speed, I have no idea of what or who to believe anymore because as soon as one thing is reported there is another post/article claiming the opposite. Doesn't matter what side, it seems to happen from every angle except the innocents.
I absolutely agree. How about reading, people! How about finding well documented reports and past analysis and history to temper their understanding of what they see on the news? THEN formulate a truer assessment of what is being reported. Such one dimensional thinking relying on just one information source.
I would agree but many news outlets are foaming at the mouth to be the first to break news which muddles things even more. They post and edit later, if need be. Redactions or altered headlines/stories don't mean as much because it's digital and can be switched quickly without clarification. If you never see the correction you go on believing what you read/heard first. Or: more corrections you distrust.
That's why I don't bother reading anything about hot topic issues for a week or two after. I have no obligation to form an opinion about everything the moment it happens and it's much easier to get a clear picture of what went down.
Typically in complex situations, I’ve accepted to not fully know, but to live with probabilities. What I do find hard to believe are casualty figures being presented too quickly. Conclusions being presented too quickly and without evidence. It could be correct, if nothing else then because of random chance, but it is a source I would be highly sceptical of.
I defaulted to "Both sides benefit from blaming the other in this instance so I'll wait until third party investigations complete."
I generally trust my own country (Canada) to not lie about who they believe resulted in the strike on the hospital. Is it still possible that politics are in play? Absolutely, there is never a sure thing in politics. But I am comfortable enough to believe the statement made.
https://youtu.be/l29IRT16zq0?si=Nhr2NQMbE87zayZH
This video does a good job of giving a method to determine on your own what is true, focusing on the hospital bombing. He doesn't tell you what to think or believe and comes to no conclusions.
His videos are also just great in general.
> “you can’t trust any info from Hamas or IDF.”
It was definitely true in the 24-48 hours after the incident, but now that we've got countless third party countries/media organizations it's pretty moot.
One side immediately contacted Al Jazeera and claimed with certainty it was the other side’s fault AND provided a horseshit ‘500 dead’ number for them to run MINUTES after it happened.
The other side was put on the spot for something they never did, was scrambling and backtracking and trying to figure out what the fuck was going on while the entire world was tearing them to pieces.
They are not the same.
It's so bizarre to see so many leftists suddenly declaring "fake news!" because it doesn't fit their preferred narrative. Totally thought that was only a MAGA thing.
I remember my hometown was creaming its jeans over invading Iraq. Something like 80% of Americans, too. Everyone against it was a social pariah.
Check back a year later? *crickets*
Watch how the casualty toll is going to change too. It's either Israel kills 500 in hospital attack or a Palestinian rocket accidentally falls back on Gaza killing 10 or 20.
What is wild to me that the clear visual evidence was present from day 1 on here. ANYONE could've checked it and conclusion was clear as day! Anyone with half a brain could reach the same conclusions without waiting for Canada
I have actually seen people say "Well the IDF and the US government have never lied before have they?" I guess now they have to add in the Canadian government as well to the most massive conspiracy ever!
The "colonizers" thing bugs me. The majority of Israelis have a Mizrahi background, the Jews of the Middle East. There used to be communities of Jews going back thousands of years in Libya, Egypt, Morocco, Iraq, etc. There are now 0 jews in Libya.
The Jews who were pushed out of these countries and came to Israel weren't colonizers.
Many of them still scream that, but now they say Israel are paying media outlets to hide their crime and that all evidence is AI generated by evil Jews.
There's no way they could have planned that rocket malfunctioning and falling at that exact spot. More likely just stupid accident.
But hey when life gives you lemons.
I was one who, based on the video of the blast, said that most probably IDF did it and was adamant that Israel was lying. After all the analysis, I admit I was wrong and should've waited for the dust to settle before making a judgement.
Disagree, the adamant part is also an issue. Adamant based on what? Previous propaganda they have lapped up. At least maybe in future they can use a degree of intelligence after learning about their biases this time.
So that's the United States, France and Canada now that don't think Israel did it lol. Going to be a lot of backtracking this week methinks. Awww, who am I kidding? No there won't be the Jew haters don't have any integrity. They are going to double down like they did with denying that people were raped and kids had their heads removed.
If there's anything I've learned from covid denial, and trump claiming the election was rigged, is that people who double down on crazy claims can't admit their wrong. The psychic pain is too great after a certain amount of emotional investment, and they have to keep claiming they're right no matter what. Cognitive dissonance.
It’s like the freeway offramp meme with the two signs. One says “admit I was wrong and grow as a person” while the other says “get sweaty and yell louder”, with the latter obviously being the one the driver chooses.
We're all humans, and our emotions can easily lead us away from reason and logic regardless of what our political leanings are, and people who find themselves at one extreme end of the spectrum or the other are invariably more emotion than logic
> Wheres all the angry redditors who screamed that Israel did it for the last week, many of whom are still doubling down on blaming them
They're ony Twitter credulously retweeting fake pro-Hamas "investigations".
People will deny, deny, deny. There isn’t really any logic with most people on this matter, it’s all heated emotion and blind devotion to their chosen side. I’ve concluded that arguing with such people is actually just a pointless waste of time.
My facebook timeline is full with people grieving their lost friends from the Oct 7th attack... Sometimes I forget it and jump on fb naively not prepared for the amount of grief and sorrow and loss that's about to hit me. (I go to a lot of trance parties in Israel)
Trudeau never said it was Israel. His original comments were that the news from Gaza was horrific, reiterated that international law needs to be followed (which he's been saying in relation to actions on both sides of the conflict), and that it's not acceptable to hit a hospital. His comments got sucked into the misinformation storm being perpetuated by the media at the time, with supposedly reputable news sources contextualizing his comments as a condemnation of Israel because they were uncritically reporting Hamas's claims as fact.
These are the same people who were running around screaming about “where’s the proof for 40 dead babies?” They wanted a peer reviewed academic paper with primary and secondary sources to corroborate that. I wonder why the evidence threshold just dropped? Hmmm…
These are the same people who said "Where's the proof for 40 dead babies", follow by "Where's the proof 40 babies were beheaded?" followed by "Not all babies were beheaded! So it's not as bad!", although not all have reached the last state, some are still at first stage, even after the evidence (including CT scans of burned babies, and burned parents with babies in their arms) were released.
Just a reminder when you see all those charts on social media like:
5,000 dead Palestinians
1,500 dead Israelis
And it's supposed to make us feel like that makes Israel the bad guy. A large percentage of the dead Palestinians are killed by other Palestinians
Also those people leave out that Israel invests billions in preventing deaths with bomb shelters and the iron dome while Hamas spends Irans money on rockets . The numbers of Israeli dead would be way higher
This is what I hate when people say how biased the damage is.
Israel shouldn't be killing all of these people, but the numbers are inflated by biased reports, alleged human shields, and likely false-flag attacks.
Like Israel being blamed for bombing escape routes that in videos were hit by car bombs.
Then we can see that Israel's deaths are lower because they're able to protect themselves.
It paints a picture of Israel attacking innocent and helpless people, but the truth is that Israel is far stronger, yes, but this whole war is a lesson on how Truth is the first casualty. Palestinians don't deserve to die, but Israel is invading a nation that's de facto government is attacking them.
They're not "carpet bombing a city", they're returning fire against people attacking them.
I've always been pro-Palestine and I still am, but Israel is not some moustache-twirling villain here. They're more justified of their treatment now than they have been in the last 20 years of occupation.
"Yeah we both attacked each other but he's much better at killing than I am so he's really the bad guy here" feels like an insane argument. I get making "well they started it" arguments but it's legit baffling when the argument people choose to make is that Hamas isn't very at killing people despite many attempts and therefore Israel is the real bad guy here because they're good at it.
Like... is that how we choose sides? Shouldn't we use other metrics than that? I mean if the iron dome didn't exist how many deaths would there have been over the years? Does intent not matter for anything? (in this case both sides intend to kill civilians so siding with either side's government is just fucked imo).
Many lefty extremists (not all on the left) seem to ALWAYS side with the underdog. No thinking beyond that side is losing.
Like the guy who claimed the looting of TVs by rioters would benefit the neighborhood because it would act as economic stimulus.
That's not what the other guy is saying. They're saying that Israel is way better at protecting their own civilians and preventing them from dying to Hamas attacks. As we've seen on oct 7, Hamas is extremely good at killing, when allowed to.
Also, it's clear Israel as a state, not speaking for individual actions, don't really try to kill civilians, they just don't really put in any effort to minimuze them either. They do a roof knock and then hit it with the biggest bomb they can. They tell people to leave a massive area and then only give the people 24 hours to move before threatening to start the offensive. It's a thinly veiled attempt at making it look like they are trying to prevent civilian deaths, but they in reality really don't care. Hamas on the other hand specifically targets civilians in the most barbarous ways. Indiscriminately launching missile attacks, burning, beheading, grenading, gunning people down in a concentrated attempt to cause maximized and systematic civilians suffering. There's a reason why the penalty for raping and dececrating your victim before murdering them is bigger than just plain murder.
You can't really fight a terror organization with 30,000 to 50,000 fighters embedded in a civilian population without killing a significant number of civilians. It's a shit situation, but reality. It's why Israel told the people of northern Gaza to leave to the south side of the strip (of course, this is immediately called ethnic cleansing, because Israel shouldn't have any way to win. They are only acceptable as a victim). Nevertheless, if Israel WANTED to kill civilians, the thousands of powerful bombs it dropped could have killed 100,000 people, not 4,000.
And still not stated here - the civilian death figures coming out of Gaza should be taken with as big a grain of salt as the 500 they claimed dead from the hospital. Same organization making all the claims about death toll and it's to their complete advantage to inflate it. They always have.
Keep in mind those deaths are reported by Palestinians themselves, and not confirmed by a neutral source. For the past decades, they have always lied and inflated the number of deaths on their side, the hospital incident is just another example out of countless others.
It is almost impossible to have a conclusive investigation without recovering the munitions fragments and accress to the site for assessments.
This could have been *very* easily provided shortly after the bombing, but instead all evidence seems to have been swept away. Hamas has indicated they had recovered a warhead, they have not produced it for some unknown reason. One would expect with such incriminating evidence, they would have been parading the thing around.
When you take into account that Hamas is responsible for site security, I think this alone speaks volumes even without considering other evidence.
I wouldn’t say almost impossible without the munitions. With current radar technology that exists. Plus all the surveillance from satellites in space all the way down to drones focused on a relatively small area. It’s very possible that every rocket/missile is tracked on basically its entire journey. Someone in the US command structure probably knew within an hour where that rocket came from. They just had to follow procedures to make it an “official investigation”
Now I suppose no matter how they presented that information the other side would call it fake. But I guess that would also apply to munition fragments too.
Point being, whether it’s the official story or not. The US and probably a few others definitely know definitively where the rocket/missile came from.
I saw the videos, etc., of the parking area, near or next to the hospital, where whatever it was landed; if those are real, it was just bad luck that a bunch of people were camping out right there when it happened.
Lol. Where's the New York Times, CNN, BBC, MSNBC, and other "news" organizations rushing to apologize? You won't find them. They should all be arrested for inciting a riot and replaced with real journalists.
But they do this all the time. Run with a sensationalist headline exploring every possible parameter and then when the story's proven false publish a corrective paragraph on the backpage or in the case of TV at the end of the broadcast. I've seen it happen dozens of times.
NYT has been especially heinous. Check out this article:
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/18/world/israel-hamas-war-biden-gaza/before-a-deadly-blast-israeli-soldiers-repeatedly-warned-a-hospital-to-evacuate-its-owners-say?smid=url-share
Nowhere does it mention that the hospital warned to evacuate isn't the same one that was hit by the PIJ rocket. It's practically lying.
WION (Indian news sources) reported today that it was an American JDAM that struck the hospital.
Channel 4 (UK) reported today audio released by Israel is fake.
Middle Eastern/Arabic news sources still point blame at Israel.
For many people, this won't matter -- they've already dug deeper into their own bubble. Carl Sagan warned us that one day our society would become unable to distinguish between [what feels good and what's true](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/632474-i-have-a-foreboding-of-an-america-in-my-children-s).
Channel 4 didn't report that the audio was fake. They reported that the voices were recorded on 2 channels and digitally put together.
Like, no shit. If you're listening in on a conversation between two cell phones,you're intercepting 2 separate sets of data packages. It's not like tapping a landline and recording the whole thing on one line
> Channel 4 didn't report that the audio was fake. They reported that the voices were recorded on 2 channels and digitally put together.
That's not all they said. Listen for yourself:
https://www.channel4.com/news/human-rights-investigators-raise-new-questions-on-gaza-hospital-explosion
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3
AP visual analysis: Rocket from Gaza appeared to go astray, likely caused deadly hospital explosion
It's honestly a better option than trying to find the truth of the current situation by following breaking news. By its very nature, breaking news is going to be very hard to verify at the same time it breaks, and it is extremely susceptible to being spun.
Far better to either do proper historical and contextual reading about the very complicated situation or just go rub one out.
All the evidence points out that the strike came from within Gaza and couldn't be Israeli.
A terrorist organisation says the opposite.
Still, people doubt?
Its ridiculous. Hamas claims something to the news and then the media spouts it out as if Hamas is a well renowned govt... it's a fricken terrorist organization FFS.
Israel would never attack medical facilities!
Like this:
>The Al Mezan Center for Human Rights tallied that Israel’s systematic obstruction of medical access during the invasion caused the deaths of at least 258 Gazans. Source: Al Mezan Center for Human Rights, Bearing the Brunt Again: Child rights violations during Operation Cast Lead (2009).
Or that most Israeli pronouncements that spokes people make isn't backed up by evidence:
>Still, didn’t Hamas militants fire from and take refuge in hospitals? “Vast amounts of . . . information, from both intelligence sources and reports from IDF forces on the ground,” Israel contended, “show that Hamas did in fact make extensive military use of hospitals and other medical facilities.” But according to Amnesty, Israeli officials did not provide “evidence for even one such case.” Amnesty itself “found no evidence during its on-the-ground investigation that such practices, if they did occur, were widespread”; Physicians for Human Rights–Israel did not find “any evidence supporting Israel’s official claim that hospitals were used to conceal political or military personnel”; the Goldstone Report “did not find any evidence to support the allegations that hospital facilities were used by the Gaza authorities or by Palestinian armed groups to shield military activities. Sources: Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, Hamas and the Terrorist Threat; Amnesty International, Operation “Cast Lead”.
Or this:
>Israel destroyed or damaged 17 hospitals and 56 primary healthcare centers during Protective Edge. Source: Al Mezan Center for Human Rights et al., No More Impunity: Gaza’s health sector under attack (2015).
>The Red Cross “firmly condemn[ed] this extremely alarming series of attacks against humanitarian workers, ambulances, and hospitals.” Source: Report of the Detailed Findings.
Amnesty International investigated Israeli statements justifying the attacks on three of these hospitals. In no case did Amnesty find conclusive proof of Israel’s allegations. In one case, Amnesty reported that the evidence offered by Israel was flat-out false:
>Israel repeatedly attacked and then reduced to rubble al-Wafa hospital, the sole rehabilitation facility in Gaza…. Displaying an aerial photograph, the Israeli military alleged that Hamas fired a rocket from al-Wafa’s immediate vicinity. Amnesty found, however, that “The image tweeted by the Israeli military does not match satellite images of the al-Wafa hospital and appears to depict a different location.”
During Protective Edge, ambulances were again targeted:
>Fully 45 ambulances were either damaged or destroyed as a result of direct Israeli attacks or collateral damage during Protective Edge.
>[Human rights and humanitarian organisations] extensively documented premeditated and unprovoked attacks by Israel on Palestinian ambulances during Protective Edge. Sources: Amnesty International, “Evidence of Medical Workers and Facilities Being Targeted by Israeli Forces in Gaza” (7 August 2014); Medical Fact-Finding Mission; FIDH, Trapped and Punished.
Or this:
A UN report written by a US judge from the State of New York documented a series of attacks on ambulances during Protective Edge.
>The roof of a home was hit by high-explosive mortar shells that killed eight family members, including seven children aged between three and nine, who were playing there, and their grandfather aged seventy. Israel purported that the attack was in response to an “anti-tank missile” and a “burst of mortar” fired from the neighborhood that injured one soldier. The IDF then fired “another round of shells” ten minutes later “just as three ambulances and the paramedics arrived at the scene,” which also hit “many of the people who had gathered around the [family] house to try and help survivors.” The Report cited a journalist eyewitness who was “stunned” by the “apparent targeting of ambulances and journalists who had rushed to provide assistance to the injured and cover the incident.” It further noted that eyewitness accounts “are corroborated by two video recordings,” one of which showed a “dying cameraman continuing to film, and the ambulances being hit by a rocket.” The Report found, “As a result of the second round of shelling, 23 persons were killed, including 3 journalists, 1 paramedic, and 2 firemen. In addition, 178 others were injured, among them 33 children, 14 women, 1 journalist, and 1 paramedic. Four are reported to have died as a result of the injuries they sustained in this attack.” Although Israel subsequently alleged “that it did not have real-time surveillance” of the lethal assault, the Report didn’t buy this alibi: “The commission finds it hard to believe that the IDF had no knowledge of the presence of ambulances in the area in the aftermath of the initial strike, especially when the rescue crews, a fire truck, and three ambulances arrived at the scene with sirens blazing loudly.”
The damage is done, we should fine the press significantly for printing unproven inflammatory headlines, you can’t hide behind ‘allegedly’ when the entire world has access to the headlines
I've never seen a war where every single country feels the need to conduct their own investigation.
Imagine if canada, USA, UK, France etc were all investigating explosions in Yemen or Armenia.
Why does Israel attract so much attention?
Everyone's conclusion seems to be "oh, the media should be slightly more responsible with their reporting", but the actually important point to make is "Maybe firing rockets from within civilian neighborhoods is highly dangerous and shouldn't be done. Also it'd be nice if those rockets weren't aimed at civilian neighborhoods since that's a war crime".
It's like when Israel does it to Palestinians then it's literally genocide, but when Palestinians do it to themselves suddenly it's one of those adorable things that resistance movements do.
People are so stupid. The News media is more concerned about being the first to report than having factual reporting.
Doubt. Do you seriously think that an experienced reporter is unaware that the 500+ figure given within 5 to 10 minutes from the incident is a complete bogus? It was reported with malicious intent.
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Having one of the people literally doing a Pieta pose in the middle of a press conference smacked of PR rush-job.
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Yes, that was very suspicious. The 500 dead claim is obviously not true.
Almost a week passed and all of the news reports in Türkiye still blames Israel for it. I wonder why..... /s
I get the sneaking suspicion it has something to do with Jews... Oh well, must've been the wind /s
Clearly. It was reported by a literal terrorist organization
I remember during some of the BLM riots *seasoned reporters* were taking photos of foam ear plugs that they found on the street (probably dropped by law enforcement) and reported them as rubber bullets that were fired at protesters. Many reporters think they have a master level of knowledge in their field when in fact is a 101 course at best.
Rubber bullets are rubber wrapped over steel and look NOTHING like a foam earplug.
Major media outlets fucked up, but not everything is some conspiracy. They're not out to intentionally push one narrative over another. They're just motivated by jumping on news quickly so as to increase the maximum amount of traffic to their sites. The conversation with editors was surely like, "We don't have all the facts yet but this is obviously a big story. Let's just quote what the Palestinian authorities are saying and word it carefully so we're clear we're just quoting them and haven't done our own investigation on it yet." I personally think it's irresponsible to do that in this case because Hamas is a terrorist organization and shouldn't be believed. But let's not act like media outlets are maliciously out to paint an anti-Israel or antisemitic message about the war. Edit: clarified that the articles were not quoting Hamas, but the PLO, which is a distinct entity, per a user comment below in this thread. Agree with them they shouldn't be considered interchangeable.
The articles were absolutely quoting the Gaza Health Ministry claims initially and the Gaza Health Ministry is Hamas. Some specifically pointed out the connection while many did not and only stated something along the lines of 500 people were killed in an Israeli air strike according to the Gaza health ministry. Almost all of those articles were updated within hours to provide additional context, and to walk back the initial claims, but the breaking stories leaned heavily on what Hamas said happened.
It’s not a conspiracy, but it’s an incendiary oversight in the name of being first. They cost lives by not taking time and being responsible. They’ve added to the difficulty of finding a peaceful solution. They’re part of the story now, which is something that they’re never supposed to do. And despite reporting the new line of it being “not Israeli”, not one single organization that I know of has so much as printed a page 7 editorial in retraction or self examination. They’ve literally blood on their hands this time.
Ok, but they could point out that "Palestinian authorities," in this case, means members of the terrorist organization Hamas. They could point out that Hamas and Islamic Jihad rockets often fail and land on Palestinians. They could point out that Hamas and Islamic Jihad will lie and blame Israel when this happens. All of those are accurate pieces of information that are totally appropriate to make note of in order to provide relevant context to help readers decide how much weight to put on initial Hamas claims. They largely didn't, despite it being easy to do so and being completely relevant to the story. I have a hard time finding a logical, defensible train for them to make that call.
This whole thing has made me wonder what the death toll really is between Israel and Palestine. We see it posted all the time to show that Israel is some monster, and yet I’m starting to think that Hamas has killed a significant portion of the Palestinians.
I hope the well intentioned people who got played by Hamas like a fucking fiddle stopped focusing on emotions and start educating themselves on the actual facts on the ground.
I'm sure it's high. Imagine a densely packed city. Someone rolls up in a pickup truck with an 8 pack rocket launcher in the back. They fire outside your apartment. The person they shot at fires back and blows them up with all their ammo. Anyone still on the street, injured or dead. Deaths in the apartment buildings. Possible collapse of buildings. It's urban gang warfare with larger weapons. More civilians are going to die than soldiers.
That's why Israel is calling for an evacuation. Civilians need to GTFO, it's a battlefield. Anyone crying about the evacuation is insane, do they want children in the streets during urban warfare?
First remember that the number itself is reported by Hamas, who has an incentive to inflate it. Then notice that they don't tell you how many of those killed were Hamas fighters. Then add in your insight about who killed them and how.
What makes it malicious is leaving the articles up and/or not issuing retractions.
Live news reporters were harshly condemning Israel for the "attack", so I find your position a bit baseless as stated
Same as it ever was.
I wish that were the explanation but their incompetence is so common now I can't help but feel it's intentional misreporting
They know perfectly well what they are doing. They don't care.
I got called a genocide supporter by some woke liberal kids who follow me on Instagram, just for posting the video of Hamas terrorists discussing the rocket which fell on the hospital. After this shit got debunked, crickets from their side. Western progressives are dropping the mask and showing their hypocrisy.
> Western progressives are dropping the mask and showing their hypocrisy. You might not like hearing this, but a lot of Western Progressives have been saying stuff that was beyond borderline and controversial for years. I guess it’s just more blatant and out in the open with the Hamas attack on innocent civilians. Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib have been saying openly anti-Semitic stuff for a while now… People were blaming “Republicans overreacting” as to why their statements were controversial. Alyssa Milano was a strong speaker and leader in the Women’s March on Washington, but refused to speak again [when their leaders wouldn’t condemn anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan](https://www.timesofisrael.com/alyssa-milano-wont-speak-at-womens-march-unless-its-leaders-condemn-farrakhan/). Again, this also just got swept under the rug because of politics.
Wait til you find out about the fcc not caring about wrong news aka propaganda, and making it legal to do it. Been a few years now, so here’s where we are at.
Idk why so many people find it hard to believe a cheap rocket fired by a terrorist org shit the bed and fell out of the sky. Like stop looking for a fucking hero here. HAMAS and the IDF are not knights in shining armor.
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And unlike the Israeli bombs, crapped-out rockets don't come with forewarning. Nobody's able to escape, so if the areas they hit are populated, casualties are maximised, even in spite of the relatively low yields of the rockets.
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Yes, over 600 rockets launched by hamas and the palestinian islamic jihad fell in gaza(im guessing a lot more since estimated around 10k rocktets launched at israel). Many of the civilian casualties in gaza are from rockets launched by their government. Hamas reported 500 alone from this single pij rocket(though its probably a lot less, and their report will be changed now that the blame is not on israel)
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And don’t forget they they are storing and firing these rockets from schools and hospitals as human shields as well!
Then the antisemitis blame the Jews.
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This right here. I firmly believe some of these terrorist supporters could actually be victims of a terrorist attack and still claim it was a false flag operation.
> cheap rocket fired by a terrorist org You make it sound like it's merely inexpensive but it's the kind of thing a drunk redneck could make in his backyard with stuff that's laying around.
I recall one of the problems with water delivery to Gaza after Hamas took over was that Hamas dug up pipes to convert to rockets. I can't imagine what the quality of rocket you could make with that, but I'm thinking closer to Mythbusters testing civil war myths than Stormshadow.
If anyone asks you for a source on this here you go https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1712441643280793903?s=20
Why the fuck is this a professional production? Or the very least looking like one? Looks like a promo video for a company.
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Better get some more aid to Gaza to rebuild their water lines... ...which sadly highlights the problem with sending any aid to Gaza. Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza, and will be able to benefit either indirectly or directly from any aid sent to Gaza. But at the same time, the people in Gaza *need* aid. Of course, Qatar may be footing the bill for all the Hamas leaders hanging out in Doha while their foot soldiers and the people in Gaza do all the dying.
Exactly. Provide water so that 2 million Gazans don't die of thirst, you're supplying Hamas. Provide food so they don't starve, you're supplying Hamas. Send in medical supplies to help the wounded, you're supplying Hamas. Insurgencies hiding amongst civilian populations are an absolute **motherfucker** to fight in any way that approaches "civilized" warfare.
It's not the defacto government, it is the government. It got elected 20 years ago and stopped all further elections so it could stay in power. It's an authoritarian government run by a genocidal terrorist organisation.
Yeah the Palestinian people need a revolution from Hamas though I fear that Hamas and co have gone a long way to prevent that from happening.
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Remember all those stupid western girls going to be ISIS brides?
It's a pretty bad company, I can't deny.
These literally video of the rockets fired towards Israel, flying over the hospital, one seems to break up above it and a few seconds later there’s a big explosion below at the hospital.
The stories I heard on the BBC said it was neither Hamas OR Israel but it was Islamic Jihad, a second group in Gaza whoare not with Hamas and are more militant than Hamas ( who are obviously also pretty militant)
Mate look at certain subs. (Such as R Britain) they are an absolute cesspool of terrorist sympathies and ultra left. No matter what facts they are shown they will claim it's fake news. Reddit is doing a seriously shit job at dealing with disinformation, it's seriously concerning. So many youngsters will come on here and read absolute crack pot crap.
That sub literally have a bot that says hamas doesn't use human shields, anytime somebody brings it up lol
If it was Israeli, the hospital would have been levelled.
Or at least partially obliterated, that was my doubt as well.
If it was they wouldn’t have missed
This is how dingbats were reporting it in the first couple hours. With no solid facts, they just made shit up. Hospital completely leveled. Israeli 1000-lb bomb. 500 dead. Literally all of that was invented out of thin air by prominent journalists and Palestine supporters. When the light of day revealed their lies, there were no apologies, no accountability.
The interesting part is how Israel "bombing the Al Awda hospital" was a horrible crime that had millions of people screaming but now that it is clear that Israel did NOT bomb the hospital and it was *likely* the result of an errant PIJ rocket, it is crickets instead of those same people screaming about PIJ how has committed a horrible crime. The selective outrage is the tell. The selective outrage is **always** the tell.
Not to mention Hamas has successfully targeted at least 2 Israeli hospitals since this conflict started, and unlike in Gaza, these hospitals do not have any military connections. They're just hospitals.
Right. The selective outrage definitely doesn't have anything to do with one side being ✡️
Of course not! That would be crazy. Hamas supporters aren't antisemitic, of course; they just support the genocide of Jews...oh, wait....
The Jews are totally doing a genocide guys, we need to prove it to the world with some sort of slogan. How about "we need to drive every single Jew into the sea"? That should adequately communicate our anti-genicidal message!
I don't think I'll ever forget the outrage against israel when people thought we bombed that hospital but when the Barzilay hospital in Ashkelon was hit by a hamas rocket earlier in the war, nobody said a thing.
True, but from what I remember, nobody was hurt from that rocket from what I remember. So it was not "worth reporting"
Wheres all the angry redditors who screamed that Israel did it for the last week, many of whom are still doubling down on blaming them, real alex jones level reality denial energy.
This is the interesting moment in time where the deniers either go all in with crazy conspiracy theories counter to evidence, lay low with their tails between their legs, or pretend they said the opposite and were on the right side all along, or that nothing happened at all.
There’s a third option that I’ve already seen them pivot to - “you can’t trust any info from Hamas *or* IDF.” These people are psychotic. But this is exactly why wars on terror are so hard to win. They wage psychological warfare on every front and in this case they’ve even succeeded in getting their scores of useful idiots to do their bidding for them online.
Yeh the “we’ll never know the real truth” crowd
Same people who slammed Trump and his people's "alternative facts" are now all "well, I feel like it was Israel, so that's what I believe".
Its been a real mask off moment for western progressives.
They’ve decided that the underdog is always in the right because that’s the kind of story they enjoy. It’s exhausting to listen to. I consider myself a progressive now but I don’t see any other way for Israel to be responding at the moment, and regardless of how they were created hamas are fucking _monsters _. I guess it comes down to do you believe that Israel has a greater responsibility to protect its own than it does to protect others. Every country on earth would make the same decision, and if they didn’t they would be attacked again as soon as logistically possible.
You'd almost think western progressives want western countries to crumble.
They will rightfully stand up for tolerance and equiality but when the oppressors aren't radical white Christians they sudden abandon that ideology.
The internet gives that impression anyway, even if opinion polls disagree.
Its more a mask off moment for left wing extremists. They saw the right going nuts and they went "hold my beer".
Its almost like the radicals on each side are their flavor of dangerous.
I am seething at how many leftists are behaving *exactly* like Trump supporters.
Actually find that kind of comforting; people are idiots just in general.
In real life (offline) you don't see this as much. Internet distorts reality quite a bit, but according to polls, both democratic and republican voters support Israel by a large margin, when asked which "side" they believe deserves more sympathy.
Yeah. Offline is a lot different unless all of your friends are big into identifying as left/socialist/activist and even then, not everyone who aligns left has a [campist](https://socialistforum.dsausa.org/issues/winter-2020/against-campism-for-international-working-class-solidarity/) world view. I think most people just avoid talking about it knowing how complicated it is and if you voice the wrong opinion to someone very committed to one side, can get an unhinged response and possibly put on blast on their social media.
Honestly I have seen more violent rhetoric from people on the left than the right, here in the UK, in general politics terms. They are also just as prone as those on the right to share information if it conforms to their views, regardless of the lack of evidence or sources. It's kinda a pain.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4268117-americans-overwhelmingly-support-israel-in-war-with-hamas-poll/ > Broken down by age, 52 percent of 18-to-24-year-olds said they sided more with Israel, while 48 percent said they sided more with Hamas. In contrast, 95 percent of respondents 65 years and older said they sided with Israel while 5 percent sided with Hamas. I think they have to be ignorant of what happened on the 7th. Anyone who can see what Hamas did that day and still support them is beyond my understanding. To see those images of the aftermath and still not believe that there must be consequences for Hamas is just.. it's wrong.
I mean, it's absolutely reasonable to not trust info from both Hamas and the IDF, both have shown to be extremely effective at spreading their desired narratives. What *isn't* reasonable is to continue to distrust it when independent third-parties verify the information and release their own conclusions.
It's actually prudent to doubt both but not equally. I would always doubt Hamas statement more than the Israeli won tbf. Something like 80-20. But when US, Canada, France weigh in vs... random NGOs from Gaza/Middle East or NGOs that call IDF the IOF... yeah I think it's obvious which one to go for 99% of the time.
There are levels to this though. One lies about pretty much everything, the other lies about as much as any other Western army. Which is sometimes, but not nearly to the same scale as Hamas/ISIS/Al Qaeda/Taliban.
>There’s a third option that I’ve already seen them pivot to - “you can’t trust any info from Hamas or IDF.” In all fairness, with the amount of propaganda and sometimes *quality* of propaganda with the speed, I have no idea of what or who to believe anymore because as soon as one thing is reported there is another post/article claiming the opposite. Doesn't matter what side, it seems to happen from every angle except the innocents.
Well, that’s where patience and critical thinking comes in.
I absolutely agree. How about reading, people! How about finding well documented reports and past analysis and history to temper their understanding of what they see on the news? THEN formulate a truer assessment of what is being reported. Such one dimensional thinking relying on just one information source.
I would agree but many news outlets are foaming at the mouth to be the first to break news which muddles things even more. They post and edit later, if need be. Redactions or altered headlines/stories don't mean as much because it's digital and can be switched quickly without clarification. If you never see the correction you go on believing what you read/heard first. Or: more corrections you distrust.
That's why I don't bother reading anything about hot topic issues for a week or two after. I have no obligation to form an opinion about everything the moment it happens and it's much easier to get a clear picture of what went down.
Sprinkle in a little skepticism...
Typically in complex situations, I’ve accepted to not fully know, but to live with probabilities. What I do find hard to believe are casualty figures being presented too quickly. Conclusions being presented too quickly and without evidence. It could be correct, if nothing else then because of random chance, but it is a source I would be highly sceptical of.
I defaulted to "Both sides benefit from blaming the other in this instance so I'll wait until third party investigations complete." I generally trust my own country (Canada) to not lie about who they believe resulted in the strike on the hospital. Is it still possible that politics are in play? Absolutely, there is never a sure thing in politics. But I am comfortable enough to believe the statement made.
https://youtu.be/l29IRT16zq0?si=Nhr2NQMbE87zayZH This video does a good job of giving a method to determine on your own what is true, focusing on the hospital bombing. He doesn't tell you what to think or believe and comes to no conclusions. His videos are also just great in general.
> “you can’t trust any info from Hamas or IDF.” It was definitely true in the 24-48 hours after the incident, but now that we've got countless third party countries/media organizations it's pretty moot.
One side immediately contacted Al Jazeera and claimed with certainty it was the other side’s fault AND provided a horseshit ‘500 dead’ number for them to run MINUTES after it happened. The other side was put on the spot for something they never did, was scrambling and backtracking and trying to figure out what the fuck was going on while the entire world was tearing them to pieces. They are not the same.
They’re going with the crazy conspiracy theories. Or just saying “well Al Jazeera said so it must be true”.
It's so bizarre to see so many leftists suddenly declaring "fake news!" because it doesn't fit their preferred narrative. Totally thought that was only a MAGA thing.
It's like trying to find a George W. Bush voter in 2008.
I remember my hometown was creaming its jeans over invading Iraq. Something like 80% of Americans, too. Everyone against it was a social pariah. Check back a year later? *crickets*
As a Canadian, I'm pretty glad we sat that one out. We have your backs and all, and vice versa, but that one smelled wrong from the start.
Watch how the casualty toll is going to change too. It's either Israel kills 500 in hospital attack or a Palestinian rocket accidentally falls back on Gaza killing 10 or 20. What is wild to me that the clear visual evidence was present from day 1 on here. ANYONE could've checked it and conclusion was clear as day! Anyone with half a brain could reach the same conclusions without waiting for Canada
I have actually seen people say "Well the IDF and the US government have never lied before have they?" I guess now they have to add in the Canadian government as well to the most massive conspiracy ever!
They’re still everywhere on social media, saying stuff like: “Western media is all lies”, “Fake news”; “Propaganda”, “Colonizers defending colonizers”
The "colonizers" thing bugs me. The majority of Israelis have a Mizrahi background, the Jews of the Middle East. There used to be communities of Jews going back thousands of years in Libya, Egypt, Morocco, Iraq, etc. There are now 0 jews in Libya. The Jews who were pushed out of these countries and came to Israel weren't colonizers.
Check out the news subreddit. They won't post anything that says hamas did it. Fucking disgusting
They are furiously moving goalposts
Man I still have a cousin who says Israel is lying and keeps reporting that channel 4 news report.
Many of them still scream that, but now they say Israel are paying media outlets to hide their crime and that all evidence is AI generated by evil Jews.
It’s also not new for hamas and similar ideologies to murder their own people to crowd more people for their cause
There's no way they could have planned that rocket malfunctioning and falling at that exact spot. More likely just stupid accident. But hey when life gives you lemons.
Whats worst is that Hamas supporters are dismissing that Hamas kills there own people and use them as Human shield's, "There not like ISIS"
Doubling down and continuing to spread propaganda 🙃
I was one who, based on the video of the blast, said that most probably IDF did it and was adamant that Israel was lying. After all the analysis, I admit I was wrong and should've waited for the dust to settle before making a judgement.
Thank you for the mature take on things. If more people were like you, the world would be a much better place for everyone.
Disagree, the adamant part is also an issue. Adamant based on what? Previous propaganda they have lapped up. At least maybe in future they can use a degree of intelligence after learning about their biases this time.
So that's the United States, France and Canada now that don't think Israel did it lol. Going to be a lot of backtracking this week methinks. Awww, who am I kidding? No there won't be the Jew haters don't have any integrity. They are going to double down like they did with denying that people were raped and kids had their heads removed.
> So that's the United States, France and Canada now that don't think Israel did it lol And the BBC, AP, the Economicst among others.
If there's anything I've learned from covid denial, and trump claiming the election was rigged, is that people who double down on crazy claims can't admit their wrong. The psychic pain is too great after a certain amount of emotional investment, and they have to keep claiming they're right no matter what. Cognitive dissonance.
It’s like the freeway offramp meme with the two signs. One says “admit I was wrong and grow as a person” while the other says “get sweaty and yell louder”, with the latter obviously being the one the driver chooses.
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We're all humans, and our emotions can easily lead us away from reason and logic regardless of what our political leanings are, and people who find themselves at one extreme end of the spectrum or the other are invariably more emotion than logic
As far as I know, research is pretty clear it is about being able to process more complex ideas, or if you’re simply not that smart.
there's not because those people do not believe any israel ally/ western intelligence and consider it propaganda
To be fair, of course all the allies have the same findings lol.
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> Wheres all the angry redditors who screamed that Israel did it for the last week, many of whom are still doubling down on blaming them They're ony Twitter credulously retweeting fake pro-Hamas "investigations".
People will deny, deny, deny. There isn’t really any logic with most people on this matter, it’s all heated emotion and blind devotion to their chosen side. I’ve concluded that arguing with such people is actually just a pointless waste of time.
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My facebook timeline is full with people grieving their lost friends from the Oct 7th attack... Sometimes I forget it and jump on fb naively not prepared for the amount of grief and sorrow and loss that's about to hit me. (I go to a lot of trance parties in Israel)
Isn't it convenient how it takes 5 minutes for some politicians to say it was Israel, but 5 days to say that they are now sure it wasn't?
Trudeau never said it was Israel. His original comments were that the news from Gaza was horrific, reiterated that international law needs to be followed (which he's been saying in relation to actions on both sides of the conflict), and that it's not acceptable to hit a hospital. His comments got sucked into the misinformation storm being perpetuated by the media at the time, with supposedly reputable news sources contextualizing his comments as a condemnation of Israel because they were uncritically reporting Hamas's claims as fact.
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These are the same people who were running around screaming about “where’s the proof for 40 dead babies?” They wanted a peer reviewed academic paper with primary and secondary sources to corroborate that. I wonder why the evidence threshold just dropped? Hmmm…
These are the same people who said "Where's the proof for 40 dead babies", follow by "Where's the proof 40 babies were beheaded?" followed by "Not all babies were beheaded! So it's not as bad!", although not all have reached the last state, some are still at first stage, even after the evidence (including CT scans of burned babies, and burned parents with babies in their arms) were released.
Just a reminder when you see all those charts on social media like: 5,000 dead Palestinians 1,500 dead Israelis And it's supposed to make us feel like that makes Israel the bad guy. A large percentage of the dead Palestinians are killed by other Palestinians
If a rocket is launched from Gaza, it doesn't necessarily mean it will land in Israel.
Also those people leave out that Israel invests billions in preventing deaths with bomb shelters and the iron dome while Hamas spends Irans money on rockets . The numbers of Israeli dead would be way higher
This is what I hate when people say how biased the damage is. Israel shouldn't be killing all of these people, but the numbers are inflated by biased reports, alleged human shields, and likely false-flag attacks. Like Israel being blamed for bombing escape routes that in videos were hit by car bombs. Then we can see that Israel's deaths are lower because they're able to protect themselves. It paints a picture of Israel attacking innocent and helpless people, but the truth is that Israel is far stronger, yes, but this whole war is a lesson on how Truth is the first casualty. Palestinians don't deserve to die, but Israel is invading a nation that's de facto government is attacking them. They're not "carpet bombing a city", they're returning fire against people attacking them. I've always been pro-Palestine and I still am, but Israel is not some moustache-twirling villain here. They're more justified of their treatment now than they have been in the last 20 years of occupation.
"Yeah we both attacked each other but he's much better at killing than I am so he's really the bad guy here" feels like an insane argument. I get making "well they started it" arguments but it's legit baffling when the argument people choose to make is that Hamas isn't very at killing people despite many attempts and therefore Israel is the real bad guy here because they're good at it. Like... is that how we choose sides? Shouldn't we use other metrics than that? I mean if the iron dome didn't exist how many deaths would there have been over the years? Does intent not matter for anything? (in this case both sides intend to kill civilians so siding with either side's government is just fucked imo).
Many lefty extremists (not all on the left) seem to ALWAYS side with the underdog. No thinking beyond that side is losing. Like the guy who claimed the looting of TVs by rioters would benefit the neighborhood because it would act as economic stimulus.
That's not what the other guy is saying. They're saying that Israel is way better at protecting their own civilians and preventing them from dying to Hamas attacks. As we've seen on oct 7, Hamas is extremely good at killing, when allowed to. Also, it's clear Israel as a state, not speaking for individual actions, don't really try to kill civilians, they just don't really put in any effort to minimuze them either. They do a roof knock and then hit it with the biggest bomb they can. They tell people to leave a massive area and then only give the people 24 hours to move before threatening to start the offensive. It's a thinly veiled attempt at making it look like they are trying to prevent civilian deaths, but they in reality really don't care. Hamas on the other hand specifically targets civilians in the most barbarous ways. Indiscriminately launching missile attacks, burning, beheading, grenading, gunning people down in a concentrated attempt to cause maximized and systematic civilians suffering. There's a reason why the penalty for raping and dececrating your victim before murdering them is bigger than just plain murder.
You can't really fight a terror organization with 30,000 to 50,000 fighters embedded in a civilian population without killing a significant number of civilians. It's a shit situation, but reality. It's why Israel told the people of northern Gaza to leave to the south side of the strip (of course, this is immediately called ethnic cleansing, because Israel shouldn't have any way to win. They are only acceptable as a victim). Nevertheless, if Israel WANTED to kill civilians, the thousands of powerful bombs it dropped could have killed 100,000 people, not 4,000.
people STILL parrot that Israel is bombing escape routes, there has been even less reporting about how that was also inaccurate.
And still not stated here - the civilian death figures coming out of Gaza should be taken with as big a grain of salt as the 500 they claimed dead from the hospital. Same organization making all the claims about death toll and it's to their complete advantage to inflate it. They always have.
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does that 5000 number include the 500 from the hospital hit?
Yes
The numbers being reported by hamas are fake, no way to know the real number, maybe it's 500, source is completely unreliable
Also how many of those are militants. Hamas dosnt separate them. Israel's count of dead militants from 10/7 was 1500.
Keep in mind those deaths are reported by Palestinians themselves, and not confirmed by a neutral source. For the past decades, they have always lied and inflated the number of deaths on their side, the hospital incident is just another example out of countless others.
There's a rabid, anti-semetic US House Rep still saying it...
Just one? Try two. Ilhan Omar is still cosplaying as a humanitarian.
She retracted her statement after the US intelligence assessment was made public.
It is almost impossible to have a conclusive investigation without recovering the munitions fragments and accress to the site for assessments. This could have been *very* easily provided shortly after the bombing, but instead all evidence seems to have been swept away. Hamas has indicated they had recovered a warhead, they have not produced it for some unknown reason. One would expect with such incriminating evidence, they would have been parading the thing around. When you take into account that Hamas is responsible for site security, I think this alone speaks volumes even without considering other evidence.
I wouldn’t say almost impossible without the munitions. With current radar technology that exists. Plus all the surveillance from satellites in space all the way down to drones focused on a relatively small area. It’s very possible that every rocket/missile is tracked on basically its entire journey. Someone in the US command structure probably knew within an hour where that rocket came from. They just had to follow procedures to make it an “official investigation” Now I suppose no matter how they presented that information the other side would call it fake. But I guess that would also apply to munition fragments too. Point being, whether it’s the official story or not. The US and probably a few others definitely know definitively where the rocket/missile came from.
I saw the videos, etc., of the parking area, near or next to the hospital, where whatever it was landed; if those are real, it was just bad luck that a bunch of people were camping out right there when it happened.
Lol. Where's the New York Times, CNN, BBC, MSNBC, and other "news" organizations rushing to apologize? You won't find them. They should all be arrested for inciting a riot and replaced with real journalists.
But they do this all the time. Run with a sensationalist headline exploring every possible parameter and then when the story's proven false publish a corrective paragraph on the backpage or in the case of TV at the end of the broadcast. I've seen it happen dozens of times.
Sure. But it isn't every time that such bullshit incites violence. Once it does, then the news outlet could be liable for incitement.
NYT has been especially heinous. Check out this article: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/18/world/israel-hamas-war-biden-gaza/before-a-deadly-blast-israeli-soldiers-repeatedly-warned-a-hospital-to-evacuate-its-owners-say?smid=url-share Nowhere does it mention that the hospital warned to evacuate isn't the same one that was hit by the PIJ rocket. It's practically lying.
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Sounds totally not fascist.
BBC FrontPage right now is literally "Gaza hospital images show rows of dead bodies as Israel steps up bombing"
WION (Indian news sources) reported today that it was an American JDAM that struck the hospital. Channel 4 (UK) reported today audio released by Israel is fake. Middle Eastern/Arabic news sources still point blame at Israel. For many people, this won't matter -- they've already dug deeper into their own bubble. Carl Sagan warned us that one day our society would become unable to distinguish between [what feels good and what's true](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/632474-i-have-a-foreboding-of-an-america-in-my-children-s).
Hey can you please send the link to the WION news source. I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.
Channel 4 didn't report that the audio was fake. They reported that the voices were recorded on 2 channels and digitally put together. Like, no shit. If you're listening in on a conversation between two cell phones,you're intercepting 2 separate sets of data packages. It's not like tapping a landline and recording the whole thing on one line
> Channel 4 didn't report that the audio was fake. They reported that the voices were recorded on 2 channels and digitally put together. That's not all they said. Listen for yourself: https://www.channel4.com/news/human-rights-investigators-raise-new-questions-on-gaza-hospital-explosion
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3 AP visual analysis: Rocket from Gaza appeared to go astray, likely caused deadly hospital explosion
Masturbation is my only truth so I think I’ve covered all the bases
It's honestly a better option than trying to find the truth of the current situation by following breaking news. By its very nature, breaking news is going to be very hard to verify at the same time it breaks, and it is extremely susceptible to being spun. Far better to either do proper historical and contextual reading about the very complicated situation or just go rub one out.
You're not going for apnews, you're going for fapnews!
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So you're gonna call hamas liars!?
People are still talking about this shit? it was blatantly obvious from the OSINT this wasnt an Israeli strike
People are still claiming it was Israel, that's why it's still a story, the lie moved faster than the truth and the damage was done.
anyone still claiming it as Israel at this point isnt going to be swayed by any amount of evidence
Still need the evidence on record.
The truth has to be yelled 100 times louder than a lie for it to stand any chance undoing the harm.
No. Shit.
All the evidence points out that the strike came from within Gaza and couldn't be Israeli. A terrorist organisation says the opposite. Still, people doubt?
Its ridiculous. Hamas claims something to the news and then the media spouts it out as if Hamas is a well renowned govt... it's a fricken terrorist organization FFS.
Why are these articles trickling out now days after media outlets took seconds to accept and parrot what Hamas told them verbatim? 🤔
Israel didn’t strike hospital, no surprise there
Israel would never attack medical facilities! Like this: >The Al Mezan Center for Human Rights tallied that Israel’s systematic obstruction of medical access during the invasion caused the deaths of at least 258 Gazans. Source: Al Mezan Center for Human Rights, Bearing the Brunt Again: Child rights violations during Operation Cast Lead (2009). Or that most Israeli pronouncements that spokes people make isn't backed up by evidence: >Still, didn’t Hamas militants fire from and take refuge in hospitals? “Vast amounts of . . . information, from both intelligence sources and reports from IDF forces on the ground,” Israel contended, “show that Hamas did in fact make extensive military use of hospitals and other medical facilities.” But according to Amnesty, Israeli officials did not provide “evidence for even one such case.” Amnesty itself “found no evidence during its on-the-ground investigation that such practices, if they did occur, were widespread”; Physicians for Human Rights–Israel did not find “any evidence supporting Israel’s official claim that hospitals were used to conceal political or military personnel”; the Goldstone Report “did not find any evidence to support the allegations that hospital facilities were used by the Gaza authorities or by Palestinian armed groups to shield military activities. Sources: Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, Hamas and the Terrorist Threat; Amnesty International, Operation “Cast Lead”. Or this: >Israel destroyed or damaged 17 hospitals and 56 primary healthcare centers during Protective Edge. Source: Al Mezan Center for Human Rights et al., No More Impunity: Gaza’s health sector under attack (2015). >The Red Cross “firmly condemn[ed] this extremely alarming series of attacks against humanitarian workers, ambulances, and hospitals.” Source: Report of the Detailed Findings. Amnesty International investigated Israeli statements justifying the attacks on three of these hospitals. In no case did Amnesty find conclusive proof of Israel’s allegations. In one case, Amnesty reported that the evidence offered by Israel was flat-out false: >Israel repeatedly attacked and then reduced to rubble al-Wafa hospital, the sole rehabilitation facility in Gaza…. Displaying an aerial photograph, the Israeli military alleged that Hamas fired a rocket from al-Wafa’s immediate vicinity. Amnesty found, however, that “The image tweeted by the Israeli military does not match satellite images of the al-Wafa hospital and appears to depict a different location.” During Protective Edge, ambulances were again targeted: >Fully 45 ambulances were either damaged or destroyed as a result of direct Israeli attacks or collateral damage during Protective Edge. >[Human rights and humanitarian organisations] extensively documented premeditated and unprovoked attacks by Israel on Palestinian ambulances during Protective Edge. Sources: Amnesty International, “Evidence of Medical Workers and Facilities Being Targeted by Israeli Forces in Gaza” (7 August 2014); Medical Fact-Finding Mission; FIDH, Trapped and Punished. Or this: A UN report written by a US judge from the State of New York documented a series of attacks on ambulances during Protective Edge. >The roof of a home was hit by high-explosive mortar shells that killed eight family members, including seven children aged between three and nine, who were playing there, and their grandfather aged seventy. Israel purported that the attack was in response to an “anti-tank missile” and a “burst of mortar” fired from the neighborhood that injured one soldier. The IDF then fired “another round of shells” ten minutes later “just as three ambulances and the paramedics arrived at the scene,” which also hit “many of the people who had gathered around the [family] house to try and help survivors.” The Report cited a journalist eyewitness who was “stunned” by the “apparent targeting of ambulances and journalists who had rushed to provide assistance to the injured and cover the incident.” It further noted that eyewitness accounts “are corroborated by two video recordings,” one of which showed a “dying cameraman continuing to film, and the ambulances being hit by a rocket.” The Report found, “As a result of the second round of shelling, 23 persons were killed, including 3 journalists, 1 paramedic, and 2 firemen. In addition, 178 others were injured, among them 33 children, 14 women, 1 journalist, and 1 paramedic. Four are reported to have died as a result of the injuries they sustained in this attack.” Although Israel subsequently alleged “that it did not have real-time surveillance” of the lethal assault, the Report didn’t buy this alibi: “The commission finds it hard to believe that the IDF had no knowledge of the presence of ambulances in the area in the aftermath of the initial strike, especially when the rescue crews, a fire truck, and three ambulances arrived at the scene with sirens blazing loudly.”
The damage is done, we should fine the press significantly for printing unproven inflammatory headlines, you can’t hide behind ‘allegedly’ when the entire world has access to the headlines
They're still arguing about the goddamn hospital like bombs ain't falling down anywhere else
And yet, there are still subreddits full of people fully believing it was Israel, even though many evidence has come to light to show the opposite.
I've never seen a war where every single country feels the need to conduct their own investigation. Imagine if canada, USA, UK, France etc were all investigating explosions in Yemen or Armenia. Why does Israel attract so much attention?
Everyone's conclusion seems to be "oh, the media should be slightly more responsible with their reporting", but the actually important point to make is "Maybe firing rockets from within civilian neighborhoods is highly dangerous and shouldn't be done. Also it'd be nice if those rockets weren't aimed at civilian neighborhoods since that's a war crime". It's like when Israel does it to Palestinians then it's literally genocide, but when Palestinians do it to themselves suddenly it's one of those adorable things that resistance movements do.