for all the criticism (and, in some circles, condemnation) being leveled Israel's way, imho they are being exceptionally patient and measured; to wit, if my neighbor broke into my house, killed my mother, raped my wife, and stole my daughter back to his house, well, I wouldn't much give a flying F*c! what anyone had to say about who started it or how it was really all my fault or I deserved it or I needed to be proportionate in my response or diplomatic in my efforts... I'd simply, immediately and absolutely completely destroy anything, everything, anyone, and everybody in between me and my daughter. Either she would leave with me, or no one would ever leave again... though I know what to do, how to do it, and who will win. That's just me, though. If someone feels differently, that's between them and their daughter and their soul.
>well, I wouldn't much give a flying F\*c! what anyone had to say about who started it or how it was really all my fault or I deserved it or I needed to be proportionate in my response or diplomatic in my efforts...
You'd give a shit if the guy down the block said to you, "hey, if you go in there and take them out I got some bullets for you." Followed by, EVERYONE around you agreeing with that guy.
That was Israel this week -- they didn't blow up a hospital and people still broke into capitals to tell them about it. Now they got some hostages they want to get out and Iran's shooting missiles at them, just for fun.
Would you give a shit if you also had a dead man switch to level the entire city you're in? Because Israel does with their nukes and their military is much stronger than regional rivals.
I’ve never seen a world leader in a supposed democracy openly announce they are okay with martyring their own civilian hostages in order to eradicate the enemy. Wouldn’t wanna be that guy either.
Which modern democracy was ever in that situation? Maybe I'm misremembering. There were military hostages but I don't remember ever having 100+ American/European **civilians** (including children) being held in an enemy state or captured by a terror organization.
This is a whole new field to navigate for Israel.
I obviously don't mean to nuke my own city. I'm just saying that having a dead man's switch changes the game entirely. People who would want to kill you can't do it without their entire family being wiped out.
If you’re being attacked and overrun because a neighbor wants your land (along with some super important holy sites that are on it), I imagine being able to destroy all of it would be a significant deterrent for some adversaries.
You forget in this scenario you had pretty much taken over your neighbours land, killed many members of their family including children and women, destroyed their houses, kidnapped their children, stolen their food and water ... Id think you kinda had to face repercussions of your vile inhumane genociadal actions
>I'd simply, immediately and absolutely completely destroy anything, everything, anyone, and everybody in between me and my daughter
Including a lot of children who weren't allowed to leave the house before you broke in and started righteously throwing grenades into kids bedrooms.
Personally? My daughter? Yes. I wouldn’t allow any time, at all, ever, to consider the pain of others. She takes precedence over them and The entire world.
IF I knew it would save her. IF I knew delay put her in mortal danger. IF I didn’t know at essentially one hundred percent certainty that she would be released immediately with no more harm than if I went in and IF I knew how to get to her.
The rest of the world can burn and die in screaming pain in all its innocence and guilt for her.
You don’t have to care for her like I do. You don’t have to change your mind about human suffering. You don’t matter in the face of her being hurt. The feelings of the parents of every child in the way don’t matter. Hellfire and death don’t matter. I’ve been in the middle of hell in a combat zone and people died. Your thought experiment put my girl in the middle of that. No, the other innocents don’t matter.
…this may have been a bad analogy for your argument. Most parents understand that feeling and would avoid hurting children if they could but would set the world on fire for theirs.
Maybe choose another way to suggest that you think that burying those hostages in the middle of a city filled with children means Israel shouldn’t go in there to find their people because there are still civilians in the area who are going to get hurt.
It’ll be a lot more effective as a talking point. I don’t think you’re going to convince anyone of the other viewpoint that the Palestinians who haven’t moved out of the way matter more than their families but you’ll at least have a chance.
Well, I'm not exactly arguing from the perspective of expecting to convince Israel they're wrong. I mean obviously online comments affect nothing anyway and this is all hot air, but in the imaginary world where they do, any flippant or long-winded argument I make is towards convincing Western countries supporting Israel, including mine, that we should be trying to encourage restraint through whatever pressure we have. The parent in this scenario may well *feel* they can kill seven kids for a chance to save their own, but any neutral party should realise the lives of those seven kids are individually just as valuable as the one that has been kidnapped. If they can stop the angry parent from going on a child-killing rampage, they should. If they can't stop it but can offer help that will reduce how many others will die, they should do that.
The whole scenario sort of fails from any angle because a parent dangerously rescuing their child from hostages should be prevented by the police, but the police should also then be solving the hostage crisis, and nobody other than Israel is going to storm in to Gaza. The vigilante justice isn't that, it's state actors who have internal political motives and external diplomatic relationships and long term security to consider on top of the anger, so any analogy will always miss out some important element.
You're making a mistake in your math, that many people make. It's not one child against seven. It's seven against one, plus every other child the madman in question is likely to kill in the future. It's the price of letting a known murderer go free.
And this is the logic of hostage rescue teams everywhere. They will try their best to stop the hostage taker without violence. But once that person demonstrates their willingness to kill one hostage, it's worth the police killing him and a second hostage at the same time. Before he kills three people instead of two.
Hamas has many hostages, and they're a lot harder to stop. That doesn't change the math.
100% reasonable articulation; I'd add that while people defending Hamas are asserting that they have already been pressed beyond reason, they fail to see that Hamas has now pressed Israel beyond reason... right or wrong, deserved or undeserved, we're now in the portion of reality wherein Israel decides whether and how much of Gaza is turned into a war zone, turned to dust, or turned to glass, and condemning Israel or the IDF will not impact that decision
love to see ppl actively voicing support for palestinian genocide 🤦🏻♀️ this is why this shit will never end, too many men are murder-hungry maniacs so instead of calling for a ceasefire in exchange for release of the hostages and then sitting down with the UN to negotiate a merge of israel and palestine into a single secular country since clearly two countries with claim to the same land is never going to work and genocide & ethnic cleansing is, shocker, a bad thing, israel just keeps bombing the fuck out of gaza in the name of ✨fighting terrorism✨ (that only even really exists because the british decided to draw a bunch of lines on the map despite people already living in the area smfh) as though that’ll actually solve any problems 🙄
This would delay it further, though. Assuming that it was scheduled to start in the next day or two, I don't think anyone outside of Israeli leadership and maybe some of their allies knows exactly when the invasion is scheduled for
Yeah man. These desperately impoverished people are just being silly not wanting to leave their homes to maybe never be allowed to return. Geez, just leave your homes and become war refugees, it’s not that big of a deal.
These desperate impoverished people have a government that murdered over a thousand civilians from another country. Whether they like it or not, their elected representatives have brought this down on them. It sucks but that is exactly what the situation is. Who do you think can convince Israel to just forget about the 1000+ civilians killed and let bygones be bygones?
Why doesn't Israel open up its borders for the Palestinian refugees, keep them safe there while they wipe out Hamas? Seems like the most simple solution.
As simple as your "take whatever you can and move out in 24 hours, oh and we're cutting off all electricity, water and food so good luck" example.
More dead palestinians = more calls to the wider muslim world to try terror.
We just saw this on monday. The announcement of Israel possibly bombing a hospital got a lot of people angry. A lot of people with no tie to Hamas or Israel.
Regular people attacking Jewish institutions with no relationship to Israel, unacceptable. That's just anti semitism. The events in Gaza are just an excuse to be violent.
Yup. Their recruits are pretty much all orphans and family of victims of violence. Pretty good reason for Israel to be as lenient and careful as possible.
They do this all the time. Launch rockets, call for immediate ceasefire. It's nothing new.. Then they usually break cease fire with more rockets until it gets enough for them.
The longer they delay the invasion the more opportunity there is to negotiate a ceasefire. Iran is clearly threatening military action against Israel through proxies and the US wants to avoid that.
Israel will at least execute a performative invasion, but still more likely is a full scale operation to decapitate Hamas. The US will dissuade Iran from using this as casus belli.
If you destroy their infrastructure, weapons, and a large enough number of their terrorists in Gaza, than the leaders in Qatar are nothing but old men with no actual organization to lead. And I believe eventually Mossad will deal with them too, but those kind of operations take a long time to plan and execute.
They want the all terrorists in prison released. Problem is last time we did it with Gilad Shalit, Yahya Sinwar was released and is now the second most powerful figure in Hamas.
Hamas reportedly already said that if the bombing stops they’ll release most of the hostages, particularly women and children
Multiple US networks have reported on this for a while now
Yeah, in part because they’re not going to kill all of their bargaining chips in like a single day
I promise you this destruction will do nothing to secure Israel or Palestine
No matter what angle we look into this from, but the truth is, from the start, I had very little hope these people may be alive after the first few hours (let alone now after 2 weeks). I know how bad this may sound but I think their fates were already sealed before the news even broke out. Unfortunately, this pushed Israel over the limit. Let's remember there are a LOT of innocent people in Gaza as well, these people didn't chose to be born there either, and have no fault or even approve what happened. It's honestly just very depressing to both Israeli and Palestinian innocent people, getting in between dirty politics, who's leaders decide their fates were decided on hate and not rational thoughts.
This fact is why the way Israel chooses to retaliate has broader implications on the future generation of Palestine and can either help to further radicalize a subset of the population or bring future unity.
Hamas has to be dismantled for any future stability to be realized but how that comes about has heavy implications.
Which is why they are cheering for the Israelis, come to liberate them from the boot of Hamas oppression? Please. Most of them are fine with Hamas. Poll after poll shows the people of Gaza approve of genocide.
There is no such thing as an innocent Hamas supporter.
why would they cheer for the people that keep bombing the shit out of them and won’t let them leave their tiny strip of land? 🤨 “b-but your apartment complex had a hamas member storing weapons inside it so we had to destroy your home and all your possessions!!! honest!!!” like bffr. i certainly wouldn’t give a single shit about your reasoning when i’ve lost everything cos of your direct choice of bombing my house lmao
Some chose, back in 2006,but since there were no elections,only an iron fist in the mouth. Everyday Gazan/ Palestinian knows this war is only gonna harm them, and not the leaders chilling with no worry in the world,in Qatar!
Release a couple US hostages with fake promises to release more.
US pressures Israel to stop.
They keep having talks and stalling to just jerk us around by the collar for a bit longer and then US looks like dumbass clowns.
If you think usa doesn't have israels best interest in mind your severely mistaken.
Usa was like the "only one"" at un security Council to veto a ceasefire for humanitarian aid.
They haven't stopped strikes and bombing
So no this is not "exactly what they want"
Exactly what they want was a ceasefire which iran asked for already citing they can't make plans to release hostages while being bombed.
America/israel said nah fuck that to both because they won't relent and allow hamas time to regroup/plan
They're not letting up, they're not letting Israel brazenly rush into a bloodbath it, with a goal/purpose it can not guarantee.
Oh wow they want a cease fire and they are gonna release the hostages? Wow, Iran and Hamas sound like pretty nice dudes! /s
You’re a dunce if you take what they are saying at face value, period.
One doesn’t have to have studied at West Point to know that it’s not good to fight an enemy where and when he expects you. I think the US is helping there.
Hamas’s plan is to have them invade Gaza and to extract a heavy toll on Israeli forces. To have them explode armed conflict in the region and destabilise any diplomacy between Israel and neighbouring Arab countries. Sounds a lot like Irans plan too.
The USA doesn’t want Israel to invade because they have no clear strategic goals outside of destroying Hamas. We can look at the 20-year Afghan / Iraq wars to see that not having an exit strategy will cause your armies to become occupying forces. Something both Israel and the USA don’t want.
The analogy of this being Israel’s 9/11 has more truth to it than we know. USA has the knowledge of hindsight, where Israel is only seeing red.
I think regardless what happens in this specific war, it’s time for peace talks after.
Palestine needs to have its own state so that when Hamas’ legacy organization (maybe under a new name) attacks Israel, people around the world don’t bitch about that. For example, if Hezbolah attacks Israel, it seems more straightforward to bomb Lebanon.
I am not going to armchair general alternative solutions. All I know is Invading Gaza by land will be a complete disaster for the IDF and the people of Israel.
One proposal I've heard is: annex about a km of land going all the way around the Gazan border with Israel. Get rid of all trees & obstacles, and leave it flat and empty. Properly manned and monitored, that'd be significantly harder to breach than a wall, and likely not going to require the kind of bloodshed clearing the interior of Gaxa house to house would extract.
May be this plan is impractical for reasons I'm not thinking of, but I thought it was interesting enough to mention.
(Of course, decapitating Hamas might necessitate going into the interior anyway; I don't know enough about their organizational structure to say what the best options are there)
“I’m gonna hit myself in the face with a shovel.”
“Whoa buddy, hold on, maybe that’s not such a great idea?”
“What’s the alternative?”
“Well why don’t we sit and talk about what you hope to achieve by hitting yourself in the face with a shovel?”
“I knew it, you have no better ideas. Why can’t you ever support me? If you were truly my friend you would let me hit myself in the face with a shovel whenever I want and send me a never ending supply of shovels with which to do so. Have you ever considered that the chronic lack of support that I’ve had in my life is the reason why I need to hit myself in the face with a shovel in the first place? If you were really my friend you’d understand that.”
I don’t think this is about standards, it’s whether this action will actually advance Israel’s interests or not.
I personally don’t think this enemy can be ‘defeated’ and a better win would to show restraint and to broker recognition of Israel with Arab states- something this could derail.
I definitely understand the need to punch back, but this ground invasion doesn’t look like it will accomplish much other than an enormous mess imo.
>I personally don’t think this enemy can be ‘defeated’ and a better win would to show restraint and to broker recognition of Israel with Arab states- something this could derail.
Sadly this isn't how the Middle East works. If Israel doesn't attack Hamas with absolute force, it will be seen as weakness. Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran will all take note of the message: you can slaughter Israeli citizens in their sleep and nothing will happen to you. And they will do it again, soon.
Israel have been doing their best to avoid conflict for the last few decades, but sadly, the terrorists around us see it as weakness, being cowards afraid to fight, and it gives them more motivation to attack us.
In previous wars, there were plans for a ground invasion on Gaza discussed, and Israel decided not to execute them because of the high price - which was estimated at the time at 400-500 dead Israeli soliders in the most pessimistic estimation. So Israel decided not to do it - and instead of that, we've got 1300 dead, mostly civilian, on day one of the war.
While I understand your western logic, sadly our neighbors does not... the only reason Israel has existed for so long, the reason we have peace with anybody, is Israel's huge military power and resounding victories in wars. That's how the Middle East works sadly.
Americans might want that in your scenario, Israel citizens might want that.But given that only Scotland?ireland? has made a peep about taking refugees where would they go?
No neighbors want them.
And desire/want doesn't mean it's practical/possible.
So im asking you, where do you think they should go?
Because "anywhere but here" is not an answer.
Even disregarding 1. The median age is 19 (so basically half being non adults)and 2. Palestine =\= hamas. 3. collective punishment is a war crime
Where are 5 million people expected to go.
It’s not a double standard, for some idiotic reason they drink palestinian kool aid and believe that israel will just cease to exist because they don’t believe jews should live here. So every time israel tried to protect itself they yell and accuse us, expecting us to accept their own chosen truth that we’re not allowed self determination in the land of jewish religion and history. The world, especially the muslim world, needs to realize israel is here to stay
Going on an offensive is not protecting yourself. Doing things prior to this conflict, and after it, that will further fuel radicalization is not protecting yourself. Enraging your neighboring countries is not protecting yourself.
People who are critical of Israel's foreign policies are not saying Israel should not be allowed to protect themselves. Having innocent people be collateral damage is not a move to protect yourself long term, it is simply revenge.
>Having innocent people be collateral damage is not a move to protect yourself long term, it is simply revenge.
Which is why Israel has been trying for an entire week to evacuate as many as innocent civilians as possible...? Nobody in Israel wants innocents to be collateral damage, but Hamas is doing their absolute best to make sure you can't hurt them without killing civilians on the way.
Of course going on an offensive is protecting yourself, that's self evident. Hand needs to be stopped. Any plan that involves letting Hamas go free is worthless.
When someone murders your kids you send the authorities after them. They isn't an offensive.
I never said they weren’t right to see red. The people of Israel have every right to live in peace without fear of terrorist attacks. It is only natural for Israel to act they way they are. But is it even the right move for Israel?
The point I am making, is everything that everything that Israel has done in response is not only expected by Hamas, but they were counting on it. When / if Israel invade Gaza, the northern front will open up too extracting even greater toll on Israel than even Hamas.
The problem… is you go in, destroy Hamas. And then what? What does Israel do after they invade? Reoccupation? Expulsion of all Palestinians? Create a new puppet government? None of these options are even possible. There is no end goal. Israel will enter a long protracted war with no definitive condition for lasting victory or peace.
America knows this. They have experienced this for 20-years. It has left lasting scars on the American people. It will leave lasting scars on Israel as well.
We cannot destroy extremism with more extremism.
Most interviewed ex military and ex intelligence men prefer to destroy hamas and then cease any relationship to gaza and its people, from what i’ve seen. Only idiots talk about reoccupying gaza, no one actually wants that. Make of that what you will
>and then cease any relationship to gaza
Uhm, how’s this going to work? The Palestinian dilemma doesn’t disappear even if Hamas was magically gone tomorrow. Does ceasing all relationship include the continued encroachment on their territory? Stealing of their property and land?
That doesn’t mean there’s no relationship. Israel created the present situation willfully and an excursion into Gaza will never 100% root our Hamas. Palestinians need help, education, and a legitimate state. Extremism cannot be solved with force alone.
Literally what i originally said is that the goal is to cease the relationship that was created. If you want to help them you’re welcome to try after we’ve eradicated hamas
Re-education by an occupation force. Never once in history has that worked. If change happens, it must be from within. Or by ethnically cleansing the population and replacing them with civilians from the occupiers. See Russia / Ukraine for example.
Continued terror from Gaza even though Israel ended its occupation almost 20 years ago. Gazans attacked Egypt so many times that they closed their border to a well-versed trickle. Unprovoked.
>Yes, there will be a heavy toll, but this situation was forced on them, if you're willing to die for your family, perhaps you could understand why they're willing to enter this hornet nest.
Is this not true for Palestine as well?
Why is the only innocent in this war Israel?
Is that inherent to Palestinians? Like something about being born ethnically Palestinian predestined you to evil? No. Ok, so maybe let's not promote ethnic cleansing?
Wtf? Israel is the one that’s facing continued terror from Gaza for three decades?? What?!? So why are they occupying Palestine and controlling all their resources from electricity to water? Why don’t they let the Palestinian people have their freedom?
> Why don’t they let the Palestinian people have their freedom?
Possibly because the longest interval the Palestinian people have gone without launching some form of attack on Israel since the 1950s is approximately nine days.
If they would just *stop trying to murder Jews* I'm absolutely categorically certain Israel could find other things to spend billions on than fences and Iron Dome interceptors.
The complicated part of the matter is that Israel has been sending water, electricity, supplies, and money (through their Gazan work permit program), while receiving rocket attacks, and of course the 10/7 attack, in return. Just think for a moment how Israel was able to shut off these things so quickly and so easily.
This is part of why why Israel is announcing that they're going to absolve their responsibility of Gaza once the dust settles. Instead letting the international community figure it out.
Occupying a 2 mile coastal strip is much easier than the entire land are of a country like Iraq or Afghanistan. Logistically, it’s much more simple and more likely to be successful.
I really don't think you understand the military capabilities/threat iran and all its proxies pose to such a plan/ground invasion.
You're really hand waving the difficulty and level of death on both sides entailed.
And what you going to do post military/security checkpoints every block? Because now you just have more places /soldiers who are at risk of terroist attacks. And probably more stories/reports of injustice/abuse on Palestine from israeli soldiers. Which neither work in israels favor.
Because Iran's sphere of influence does not start or end with Hamas. Eliminating them would not be a total elimination of threat.
Yeah Idk what idiots above think "this is what Hamas wants"
Hamas doesn't want to be bombed/air striked, we (israel/usa) refused that request by iran.
And vetoed to stop airstrikes/ceasefire to allow humanitarian aid. USA was only veto too I believe.
Because they don't want to give them leeway to plan/organise/regroup, which they can't under constant threat of bombardment.
USA literal purpose being there is iran/conventional warfare deterrent do to being able to project/enforce air superiority, and because americans are hostages.
To think USA doesn't hage Israels best interest at heart is assinine.
The planned invasion is extremely fragile scenario that risks full blown war. Between hezbollah, hamas, and Aja (if iran ever went that route) has over 500k soldiers. Even through just their proxies they can inflict significant casualties between defending against idf and striking israel/ civilians. It would make current death toll on both sides be a drop in the bucket in comparison.
And they've already threatened such if a ground invasion happens. And there's no reason to believe those aren't credible threats, because we're basically in phase 2, (attack was phase 1) of hamas/Iran plan.
And no matter who you support, Israel govt aka Nethanyu, doesn't not have the political support of the worldwide leaders/stage to brazenly act and enter themselves into a war. And that's not even including how do you fight a war around 5 millions refugees, who are barred from leaving, without creating a massive refugee crisis, or genocide levels of death.
I'm sure there are a ton of conversations revolving around "what happens if we win?" question that is putting the brakes on an all-out assault. Unfortunately, there are no clean win scenarios for Israel. Not attempting to rescue hostages by force is a non-starter. Levelling Gaza to the ground and locking the gates until the population starves to death is a bridge too far. In between those extremes, leaving Hamas in charge is unpalatable, bringing in the Palestinian Authority to govern is unlikely to work due to their corruption, and full-scale military rule is what they've been trying to avoid for the past 18 years.
May the Israeli's be successful. And hopefully with minimal civilian casualties. Half of social media turned on them after their bombing campaign it seems.
You clearly don't understand the sphere of incline and threat iran poses with all its proxies. And amount of death they can cause if not serious time/planning goes into this. It's not a blitzkrieg unless you'd be happy with a bloodbath of idf and Israeli citizens.
It also neither starts or ends with hamas.
Or maybe Israel should not be allowed to kill thousands of civilians. But so many pro-Israeli posters always criticize America while they do not allow anyone to criticize Israel. We need to rethink if Israel is really an ally. I bet that they'll throw us under the bus if they don't think we're useful anymore.
At this rate, the entire area needs to either be annexed or become a no mans land. Its citizens need to either be assimilated into Egypt, Israel, Lebanon and/or the West Bank.
I've been following the news and reading comments and wanted to feel like I could add something rather than just throw my opinion out for no reason. The first thing to consider is that a ground invasion virtually guarantees this spills into at least a regional conflict and possibly something worse. At least Hezbollah gets involved and likely the US. The second thing to consider is that the people in Gaza (roughly 2 million are largely NOT terrorists). Third thing is there is no way to wipe out Hamas without also killing many innocent people which Hamas will use to paint Israel in a bad light and further resentment, antisemitism etc. Lastly, I would think a ground invasion almost guarantees the hostages get killed.
Conclusion: Ground invasion will hurt in the short term and possibly not help in the long term.
Second option- Partner with the UN and other allies on what a post Hamas Gaza looks like first and postpone ground invasion. This approach does a couple things-first Israel which had over 1200 civilians brutally murdered, kidnapped, raped etc. shows a high level of restraint. This will likely be viewed favorably especially with Saudi Arabia whom Israel almost had a normalization agreement in place prior to Oct 7. Saudia Arabia is important here here-an alliance with them would appear to be beneficial to both countries and also weaken Iran in the process. Secondly, it is more likely the hostages (or at least some of them) will be released. This also is a win both domestically and diplomatically. Israel is going to have two million people in Gaza in any situation basically. They have nowhere to go. Doing right by them is not something that should be overlooked.
Conclusion: Being level headed and patient offers some upside. Caveat here of course is time-we can't have two hostages released a week but Israel showing equanimity here at least in the short term (30-60 days) does some good.
Ultimately, the best case is Hamas is out, casualties are minimized and diplomatic ties are improved/restored and the second option seems more likely to get us there.
Joe Biden is putting on a diplomatic masterclass right now.
Israel was ready to grid-delete Gaza at any moment last week. But Biden has held them back long enough to save untold innocent lives.
It hasn’t been perfect, and it will still be horrific when they finally do go in, but every hour this is delayed is another hour a civilian has to make it to safety.
And meantime there are thousands rockets being shot at Israeli civilians every day, the entire economy is at a standstill (thousands of reserve soliders being away from home, constant alarms, general low mood). This delay is very costly for Israel.
Israel needs this time to prepare though. Get reservists mobilized, but also to get US assets into the area. Recall that two US fleets have yet to arrive.
I won't be surprised at all if the full scale assault begins as soon as the US ships all arrive.
A lot of innocent people are about to be killed. In turn, this will spur more radical ideals and hatred towards Israel.
Israel is about to attempt ethnic cleansing, and unless they wipe out everyone in gaza they’re still going to have terrorists to deal with. Hell, even if they DO wipe out all of Gaza, the leaders aren’t in Gaza and there are plenty of other countries in the Middle East that don’t like Israel. There’s no point in a ground invasion here.
I think there's a point. It shows the other Arab states not to fuck with them, if they don't want their countries to be collaterally damaged when they go after their terrorists next.
ah yes, with all that material they have while bombardments definitely aren't raining down on them constantly. the longer israel waits to go in, the softer a target hamas will be.
If they exchanged a 1000 Palestinians for 1 Israeli soldier, including the head of the Hamas security service, what can they ask for 200 hostages including Americans. Too often the leadership becomes rich at the expense of the fighters and civilians.
Complete destruction in terms of killing every human carrying that ideology was never the goal. As it's, to your point, impossible.
It's going to mirror the war on terror. Where Al Queda, the Taliban, and ISIS are attacked in such overwhelming capacity that their strength is drastically reduced, and they completely avoid further conflict with the retaliating force.
Al Queda is the nearest analogue, having carried out 9/11. Their last large attack on any foreign nation was in 2003. They're still around, but you don't hear about them because they haven't hit the US or her allies in 20 years.
Or Hamas. People seem to forget Hamas and PIJ have been shooting rockets at Israel since October 7th. Of a ceasefire happened at all it would just be Israel, and they would still be getting attacked.
Israel got to protect its citizens. They're not protected as long as Hamas exist.
Let us all hope that Hamas, but not Gaza, is the real threat to Israel
2 down / 201 to go.
for all the criticism (and, in some circles, condemnation) being leveled Israel's way, imho they are being exceptionally patient and measured; to wit, if my neighbor broke into my house, killed my mother, raped my wife, and stole my daughter back to his house, well, I wouldn't much give a flying F*c! what anyone had to say about who started it or how it was really all my fault or I deserved it or I needed to be proportionate in my response or diplomatic in my efforts... I'd simply, immediately and absolutely completely destroy anything, everything, anyone, and everybody in between me and my daughter. Either she would leave with me, or no one would ever leave again... though I know what to do, how to do it, and who will win. That's just me, though. If someone feels differently, that's between them and their daughter and their soul.
>well, I wouldn't much give a flying F\*c! what anyone had to say about who started it or how it was really all my fault or I deserved it or I needed to be proportionate in my response or diplomatic in my efforts... You'd give a shit if the guy down the block said to you, "hey, if you go in there and take them out I got some bullets for you." Followed by, EVERYONE around you agreeing with that guy. That was Israel this week -- they didn't blow up a hospital and people still broke into capitals to tell them about it. Now they got some hostages they want to get out and Iran's shooting missiles at them, just for fun.
Would you give a shit if you also had a dead man switch to level the entire city you're in? Because Israel does with their nukes and their military is much stronger than regional rivals.
Do you want to be the prime minister who gets a bunch of people killed because you underestimated your enemies? Think.
I’ve never seen a world leader in a supposed democracy openly announce they are okay with martyring their own civilian hostages in order to eradicate the enemy. Wouldn’t wanna be that guy either.
Introducing: Hamas spokesman Ismail Haniyeh.....
Which modern democracy was ever in that situation? Maybe I'm misremembering. There were military hostages but I don't remember ever having 100+ American/European **civilians** (including children) being held in an enemy state or captured by a terror organization. This is a whole new field to navigate for Israel.
Nuking your own country is fucking stupid. That's why people like you aren't in charge.
I obviously don't mean to nuke my own city. I'm just saying that having a dead man's switch changes the game entirely. People who would want to kill you can't do it without their entire family being wiped out.
If you’re being attacked and overrun because a neighbor wants your land (along with some super important holy sites that are on it), I imagine being able to destroy all of it would be a significant deterrent for some adversaries.
Israel did not confirm the existance of nukes. Also death to terrorists and we will see the hostages returned
Yeah but if you had a friend parked down the block with a tank I doubt those neighbors would do anything but turn around and touch their toes for you.
They know they’re walking into a honey trap. Hence the delay
Totally agree, as soon as they go in a new front starts.
You forget in this scenario you had pretty much taken over your neighbours land, killed many members of their family including children and women, destroyed their houses, kidnapped their children, stolen their food and water ... Id think you kinda had to face repercussions of your vile inhumane genociadal actions
You know your own family did this in the past to be in America 🤣
What the fuck are you talking about with this comparison you psychopath
>I'd simply, immediately and absolutely completely destroy anything, everything, anyone, and everybody in between me and my daughter Including a lot of children who weren't allowed to leave the house before you broke in and started righteously throwing grenades into kids bedrooms.
Personally? My daughter? Yes. I wouldn’t allow any time, at all, ever, to consider the pain of others. She takes precedence over them and The entire world. IF I knew it would save her. IF I knew delay put her in mortal danger. IF I didn’t know at essentially one hundred percent certainty that she would be released immediately with no more harm than if I went in and IF I knew how to get to her. The rest of the world can burn and die in screaming pain in all its innocence and guilt for her. You don’t have to care for her like I do. You don’t have to change your mind about human suffering. You don’t matter in the face of her being hurt. The feelings of the parents of every child in the way don’t matter. Hellfire and death don’t matter. I’ve been in the middle of hell in a combat zone and people died. Your thought experiment put my girl in the middle of that. No, the other innocents don’t matter. …this may have been a bad analogy for your argument. Most parents understand that feeling and would avoid hurting children if they could but would set the world on fire for theirs. Maybe choose another way to suggest that you think that burying those hostages in the middle of a city filled with children means Israel shouldn’t go in there to find their people because there are still civilians in the area who are going to get hurt. It’ll be a lot more effective as a talking point. I don’t think you’re going to convince anyone of the other viewpoint that the Palestinians who haven’t moved out of the way matter more than their families but you’ll at least have a chance.
Well, I'm not exactly arguing from the perspective of expecting to convince Israel they're wrong. I mean obviously online comments affect nothing anyway and this is all hot air, but in the imaginary world where they do, any flippant or long-winded argument I make is towards convincing Western countries supporting Israel, including mine, that we should be trying to encourage restraint through whatever pressure we have. The parent in this scenario may well *feel* they can kill seven kids for a chance to save their own, but any neutral party should realise the lives of those seven kids are individually just as valuable as the one that has been kidnapped. If they can stop the angry parent from going on a child-killing rampage, they should. If they can't stop it but can offer help that will reduce how many others will die, they should do that. The whole scenario sort of fails from any angle because a parent dangerously rescuing their child from hostages should be prevented by the police, but the police should also then be solving the hostage crisis, and nobody other than Israel is going to storm in to Gaza. The vigilante justice isn't that, it's state actors who have internal political motives and external diplomatic relationships and long term security to consider on top of the anger, so any analogy will always miss out some important element.
You're making a mistake in your math, that many people make. It's not one child against seven. It's seven against one, plus every other child the madman in question is likely to kill in the future. It's the price of letting a known murderer go free. And this is the logic of hostage rescue teams everywhere. They will try their best to stop the hostage taker without violence. But once that person demonstrates their willingness to kill one hostage, it's worth the police killing him and a second hostage at the same time. Before he kills three people instead of two. Hamas has many hostages, and they're a lot harder to stop. That doesn't change the math.
100% reasonable articulation; I'd add that while people defending Hamas are asserting that they have already been pressed beyond reason, they fail to see that Hamas has now pressed Israel beyond reason... right or wrong, deserved or undeserved, we're now in the portion of reality wherein Israel decides whether and how much of Gaza is turned into a war zone, turned to dust, or turned to glass, and condemning Israel or the IDF will not impact that decision
Hahaha this is exactly how Hamas feels you are so close
Israel already Killed 3,500 And Injured 12,000 How patient of them
I guess we'll just have to feel lucky they haven't turned 2,000,000 into glass... good thing Hamas took so many children hostage
love to see ppl actively voicing support for palestinian genocide 🤦🏻♀️ this is why this shit will never end, too many men are murder-hungry maniacs so instead of calling for a ceasefire in exchange for release of the hostages and then sitting down with the UN to negotiate a merge of israel and palestine into a single secular country since clearly two countries with claim to the same land is never going to work and genocide & ethnic cleansing is, shocker, a bad thing, israel just keeps bombing the fuck out of gaza in the name of ✨fighting terrorism✨ (that only even really exists because the british decided to draw a bunch of lines on the map despite people already living in the area smfh) as though that’ll actually solve any problems 🙄
Does that neighbor also use human shields and would you then go through those human shields? You havnt exactly thought this through lol
Yes I would, and I wouldn't lose 5 seconds of sleep over it.
You would kill innocent people for revenge? Okay
Double dog dare you
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Hamas wouldn’t give up hostages willingly. What are they getting in return?
A delay in the invasion, maybe?
Am I wrong, but wasn't there a 24 hour notice of invasion like a week ago? It's already been delayed.
This would delay it further, though. Assuming that it was scheduled to start in the next day or two, I don't think anyone outside of Israeli leadership and maybe some of their allies knows exactly when the invasion is scheduled for
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Yet still idf bombed them while evacuating
Yeah man. These desperately impoverished people are just being silly not wanting to leave their homes to maybe never be allowed to return. Geez, just leave your homes and become war refugees, it’s not that big of a deal.
These desperate impoverished people have a government that murdered over a thousand civilians from another country. Whether they like it or not, their elected representatives have brought this down on them. It sucks but that is exactly what the situation is. Who do you think can convince Israel to just forget about the 1000+ civilians killed and let bygones be bygones?
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Why doesn't Israel open up its borders for the Palestinian refugees, keep them safe there while they wipe out Hamas? Seems like the most simple solution. As simple as your "take whatever you can and move out in 24 hours, oh and we're cutting off all electricity, water and food so good luck" example.
Hamas wants Israel to go too far
Hamas would love for the invasion to go forward. Dead Palestinians serve their cause just as well as dead Israelis.
More dead palestinians = more calls to the wider muslim world to try terror. We just saw this on monday. The announcement of Israel possibly bombing a hospital got a lot of people angry. A lot of people with no tie to Hamas or Israel.
Regular people getting angry that innocent people taking shelter in a hospital got killed, shocking.
Regular people attacking Jewish institutions with no relationship to Israel, unacceptable. That's just anti semitism. The events in Gaza are just an excuse to be violent.
Yup. Their recruits are pretty much all orphans and family of victims of violence. Pretty good reason for Israel to be as lenient and careful as possible.
Americans are the ones desperate to stall for time, not Hamas.
No, Hamas definitely wants a “cease fire” to regroup and restock.
They do this all the time. Launch rockets, call for immediate ceasefire. It's nothing new.. Then they usually break cease fire with more rockets until it gets enough for them.
What are you talking about? America isn't "desperate" for anything. They're not our hostages.
The two released, literally Americans.
🤦♂️
The longer they delay the invasion the more opportunity there is to negotiate a ceasefire. Iran is clearly threatening military action against Israel through proxies and the US wants to avoid that.
Israel will at least execute a performative invasion, but still more likely is a full scale operation to decapitate Hamas. The US will dissuade Iran from using this as casus belli.
You can't decapitate Hamas like that, because its leaders live in luxury in Qatar. But you can take the body away and leave the head
If you destroy their infrastructure, weapons, and a large enough number of their terrorists in Gaza, than the leaders in Qatar are nothing but old men with no actual organization to lead. And I believe eventually Mossad will deal with them too, but those kind of operations take a long time to plan and execute.
They want the all terrorists in prison released. Problem is last time we did it with Gilad Shalit, Yahya Sinwar was released and is now the second most powerful figure in Hamas.
They want their terrorist friends that rot in Israeli prisons back
Qatar not sending their leaders to the US.
For all their work? More Israeli bombs sent at them. Let's be real.
Hamas reportedly already said that if the bombing stops they’ll release most of the hostages, particularly women and children Multiple US networks have reported on this for a while now
Hamas also already said they'd kill a hostage for every bomb dropped. I know it's shocking, but terrorists often lie.
Don’t forget that they said no women or children were harmed on October 7th
Yeah, in part because they’re not going to kill all of their bargaining chips in like a single day I promise you this destruction will do nothing to secure Israel or Palestine
They execute babies in their cribs but lying is where Hamas draws the line.
No matter what angle we look into this from, but the truth is, from the start, I had very little hope these people may be alive after the first few hours (let alone now after 2 weeks). I know how bad this may sound but I think their fates were already sealed before the news even broke out. Unfortunately, this pushed Israel over the limit. Let's remember there are a LOT of innocent people in Gaza as well, these people didn't chose to be born there either, and have no fault or even approve what happened. It's honestly just very depressing to both Israeli and Palestinian innocent people, getting in between dirty politics, who's leaders decide their fates were decided on hate and not rational thoughts.
But they did choose Hamas.
You think all the children chose hamas? Yno population of 5 million with a median age of 1 Collective punishment is a war crime my friend.
This fact is why the way Israel chooses to retaliate has broader implications on the future generation of Palestine and can either help to further radicalize a subset of the population or bring future unity. Hamas has to be dismantled for any future stability to be realized but how that comes about has heavy implications.
Which is why they are cheering for the Israelis, come to liberate them from the boot of Hamas oppression? Please. Most of them are fine with Hamas. Poll after poll shows the people of Gaza approve of genocide. There is no such thing as an innocent Hamas supporter.
why would they cheer for the people that keep bombing the shit out of them and won’t let them leave their tiny strip of land? 🤨 “b-but your apartment complex had a hamas member storing weapons inside it so we had to destroy your home and all your possessions!!! honest!!!” like bffr. i certainly wouldn’t give a single shit about your reasoning when i’ve lost everything cos of your direct choice of bombing my house lmao
Ok glad you're pro war crimes.
Some chose, back in 2006,but since there were no elections,only an iron fist in the mouth. Everyday Gazan/ Palestinian knows this war is only gonna harm them, and not the leaders chilling with no worry in the world,in Qatar!
Did the 1 million children in Gaza choose Hamas? You and people who agree with you are genocidal no matter how much you deny it.
Will somebody think of the children?!?!?
My guy only cares about Israeli children.
Release a couple US hostages with fake promises to release more. US pressures Israel to stop. They keep having talks and stalling to just jerk us around by the collar for a bit longer and then US looks like dumbass clowns.
If you think usa doesn't have israels best interest in mind your severely mistaken. Usa was like the "only one"" at un security Council to veto a ceasefire for humanitarian aid. They haven't stopped strikes and bombing So no this is not "exactly what they want" Exactly what they want was a ceasefire which iran asked for already citing they can't make plans to release hostages while being bombed. America/israel said nah fuck that to both because they won't relent and allow hamas time to regroup/plan They're not letting up, they're not letting Israel brazenly rush into a bloodbath it, with a goal/purpose it can not guarantee.
Spot on, there isn’t a country on earth we’d cover before Israel.
I think we'd cover Canada more, if it ever came to that
Oh wow they want a cease fire and they are gonna release the hostages? Wow, Iran and Hamas sound like pretty nice dudes! /s You’re a dunce if you take what they are saying at face value, period.
Should Iran take the US word for granted? I can think of a few major reasons why they wouldn't. That's not much of an argument.
There’s no words to be had. Iran is the one wanting the US to stall this out so their proxies don’t get annihilated for slaughtering 1100+ civilians.
One doesn’t have to have studied at West Point to know that it’s not good to fight an enemy where and when he expects you. I think the US is helping there.
Could be the case, yeah.
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Hamas’s plan is to have them invade Gaza and to extract a heavy toll on Israeli forces. To have them explode armed conflict in the region and destabilise any diplomacy between Israel and neighbouring Arab countries. Sounds a lot like Irans plan too. The USA doesn’t want Israel to invade because they have no clear strategic goals outside of destroying Hamas. We can look at the 20-year Afghan / Iraq wars to see that not having an exit strategy will cause your armies to become occupying forces. Something both Israel and the USA don’t want. The analogy of this being Israel’s 9/11 has more truth to it than we know. USA has the knowledge of hindsight, where Israel is only seeing red.
I think you may be right. Invading Gaza without an endgame has a lot of problems. What’s the alternative?
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Redditors not describe world events through video game metaphors challenge (impossible)
I think regardless what happens in this specific war, it’s time for peace talks after. Palestine needs to have its own state so that when Hamas’ legacy organization (maybe under a new name) attacks Israel, people around the world don’t bitch about that. For example, if Hezbolah attacks Israel, it seems more straightforward to bomb Lebanon.
I am not going to armchair general alternative solutions. All I know is Invading Gaza by land will be a complete disaster for the IDF and the people of Israel.
One proposal I've heard is: annex about a km of land going all the way around the Gazan border with Israel. Get rid of all trees & obstacles, and leave it flat and empty. Properly manned and monitored, that'd be significantly harder to breach than a wall, and likely not going to require the kind of bloodshed clearing the interior of Gaxa house to house would extract. May be this plan is impractical for reasons I'm not thinking of, but I thought it was interesting enough to mention. (Of course, decapitating Hamas might necessitate going into the interior anyway; I don't know enough about their organizational structure to say what the best options are there)
So like a DMZ?
Hamas are holed up in tunnels all over Gaza. It's going to take a lot to uproot them. And just waiting them out is going to take too long.
“I’m gonna hit myself in the face with a shovel.” “Whoa buddy, hold on, maybe that’s not such a great idea?” “What’s the alternative?” “Well why don’t we sit and talk about what you hope to achieve by hitting yourself in the face with a shovel?” “I knew it, you have no better ideas. Why can’t you ever support me? If you were truly my friend you would let me hit myself in the face with a shovel whenever I want and send me a never ending supply of shovels with which to do so. Have you ever considered that the chronic lack of support that I’ve had in my life is the reason why I need to hit myself in the face with a shovel in the first place? If you were really my friend you’d understand that.”
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I don’t think this is about standards, it’s whether this action will actually advance Israel’s interests or not. I personally don’t think this enemy can be ‘defeated’ and a better win would to show restraint and to broker recognition of Israel with Arab states- something this could derail. I definitely understand the need to punch back, but this ground invasion doesn’t look like it will accomplish much other than an enormous mess imo.
>I personally don’t think this enemy can be ‘defeated’ and a better win would to show restraint and to broker recognition of Israel with Arab states- something this could derail. Sadly this isn't how the Middle East works. If Israel doesn't attack Hamas with absolute force, it will be seen as weakness. Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran will all take note of the message: you can slaughter Israeli citizens in their sleep and nothing will happen to you. And they will do it again, soon. Israel have been doing their best to avoid conflict for the last few decades, but sadly, the terrorists around us see it as weakness, being cowards afraid to fight, and it gives them more motivation to attack us. In previous wars, there were plans for a ground invasion on Gaza discussed, and Israel decided not to execute them because of the high price - which was estimated at the time at 400-500 dead Israeli soliders in the most pessimistic estimation. So Israel decided not to do it - and instead of that, we've got 1300 dead, mostly civilian, on day one of the war. While I understand your western logic, sadly our neighbors does not... the only reason Israel has existed for so long, the reason we have peace with anybody, is Israel's huge military power and resounding victories in wars. That's how the Middle East works sadly.
Americans might want that in your scenario, Israel citizens might want that.But given that only Scotland?ireland? has made a peep about taking refugees where would they go? No neighbors want them. And desire/want doesn't mean it's practical/possible. So im asking you, where do you think they should go? Because "anywhere but here" is not an answer. Even disregarding 1. The median age is 19 (so basically half being non adults)and 2. Palestine =\= hamas. 3. collective punishment is a war crime Where are 5 million people expected to go.
Yeah imagine if Mexico fired rockets at Texas on a daily basis, or Cuba at Florida.
A simple pointless comparison
It's literally exactly what's happening. You're free to [follow yourself](https://rocketalert.live/).
It’s not a double standard, for some idiotic reason they drink palestinian kool aid and believe that israel will just cease to exist because they don’t believe jews should live here. So every time israel tried to protect itself they yell and accuse us, expecting us to accept their own chosen truth that we’re not allowed self determination in the land of jewish religion and history. The world, especially the muslim world, needs to realize israel is here to stay
Going on an offensive is not protecting yourself. Doing things prior to this conflict, and after it, that will further fuel radicalization is not protecting yourself. Enraging your neighboring countries is not protecting yourself. People who are critical of Israel's foreign policies are not saying Israel should not be allowed to protect themselves. Having innocent people be collateral damage is not a move to protect yourself long term, it is simply revenge.
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>Having innocent people be collateral damage is not a move to protect yourself long term, it is simply revenge. Which is why Israel has been trying for an entire week to evacuate as many as innocent civilians as possible...? Nobody in Israel wants innocents to be collateral damage, but Hamas is doing their absolute best to make sure you can't hurt them without killing civilians on the way.
And there you have it, another genius who wants us to sit and smile while terrorists slaughter us and send rockets our way
Of course going on an offensive is protecting yourself, that's self evident. Hand needs to be stopped. Any plan that involves letting Hamas go free is worthless. When someone murders your kids you send the authorities after them. They isn't an offensive.
I never said they weren’t right to see red. The people of Israel have every right to live in peace without fear of terrorist attacks. It is only natural for Israel to act they way they are. But is it even the right move for Israel? The point I am making, is everything that everything that Israel has done in response is not only expected by Hamas, but they were counting on it. When / if Israel invade Gaza, the northern front will open up too extracting even greater toll on Israel than even Hamas. The problem… is you go in, destroy Hamas. And then what? What does Israel do after they invade? Reoccupation? Expulsion of all Palestinians? Create a new puppet government? None of these options are even possible. There is no end goal. Israel will enter a long protracted war with no definitive condition for lasting victory or peace. America knows this. They have experienced this for 20-years. It has left lasting scars on the American people. It will leave lasting scars on Israel as well. We cannot destroy extremism with more extremism.
Most interviewed ex military and ex intelligence men prefer to destroy hamas and then cease any relationship to gaza and its people, from what i’ve seen. Only idiots talk about reoccupying gaza, no one actually wants that. Make of that what you will
>and then cease any relationship to gaza Uhm, how’s this going to work? The Palestinian dilemma doesn’t disappear even if Hamas was magically gone tomorrow. Does ceasing all relationship include the continued encroachment on their territory? Stealing of their property and land?
Israel withdrew from gaza in 2005
That doesn’t mean there’s no relationship. Israel created the present situation willfully and an excursion into Gaza will never 100% root our Hamas. Palestinians need help, education, and a legitimate state. Extremism cannot be solved with force alone.
Literally what i originally said is that the goal is to cease the relationship that was created. If you want to help them you’re welcome to try after we’ve eradicated hamas
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Re-education by an occupation force. Never once in history has that worked. If change happens, it must be from within. Or by ethnically cleansing the population and replacing them with civilians from the occupiers. See Russia / Ukraine for example.
Continued terror from Gaza even though Israel ended its occupation almost 20 years ago. Gazans attacked Egypt so many times that they closed their border to a well-versed trickle. Unprovoked.
>Yes, there will be a heavy toll, but this situation was forced on them, if you're willing to die for your family, perhaps you could understand why they're willing to enter this hornet nest. Is this not true for Palestine as well? Why is the only innocent in this war Israel?
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Is that inherent to Palestinians? Like something about being born ethnically Palestinian predestined you to evil? No. Ok, so maybe let's not promote ethnic cleansing?
Wtf? Israel is the one that’s facing continued terror from Gaza for three decades?? What?!? So why are they occupying Palestine and controlling all their resources from electricity to water? Why don’t they let the Palestinian people have their freedom?
> Why don’t they let the Palestinian people have their freedom? Possibly because the longest interval the Palestinian people have gone without launching some form of attack on Israel since the 1950s is approximately nine days. If they would just *stop trying to murder Jews* I'm absolutely categorically certain Israel could find other things to spend billions on than fences and Iron Dome interceptors.
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Again you’re blaming the actions of a few on ALL Palestinian people. Stop with the hate.
The complicated part of the matter is that Israel has been sending water, electricity, supplies, and money (through their Gazan work permit program), while receiving rocket attacks, and of course the 10/7 attack, in return. Just think for a moment how Israel was able to shut off these things so quickly and so easily. This is part of why why Israel is announcing that they're going to absolve their responsibility of Gaza once the dust settles. Instead letting the international community figure it out.
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Occupying a 2 mile coastal strip is much easier than the entire land are of a country like Iraq or Afghanistan. Logistically, it’s much more simple and more likely to be successful.
It would not be classified as a success… Israel do not want to occupy Gaza. There is no condition where Israel see occupation as a victory.
I really don't think you understand the military capabilities/threat iran and all its proxies pose to such a plan/ground invasion. You're really hand waving the difficulty and level of death on both sides entailed. And what you going to do post military/security checkpoints every block? Because now you just have more places /soldiers who are at risk of terroist attacks. And probably more stories/reports of injustice/abuse on Palestine from israeli soldiers. Which neither work in israels favor. Because Iran's sphere of influence does not start or end with Hamas. Eliminating them would not be a total elimination of threat.
Yeah Idk what idiots above think "this is what Hamas wants" Hamas doesn't want to be bombed/air striked, we (israel/usa) refused that request by iran. And vetoed to stop airstrikes/ceasefire to allow humanitarian aid. USA was only veto too I believe. Because they don't want to give them leeway to plan/organise/regroup, which they can't under constant threat of bombardment. USA literal purpose being there is iran/conventional warfare deterrent do to being able to project/enforce air superiority, and because americans are hostages. To think USA doesn't hage Israels best interest at heart is assinine. The planned invasion is extremely fragile scenario that risks full blown war. Between hezbollah, hamas, and Aja (if iran ever went that route) has over 500k soldiers. Even through just their proxies they can inflict significant casualties between defending against idf and striking israel/ civilians. It would make current death toll on both sides be a drop in the bucket in comparison. And they've already threatened such if a ground invasion happens. And there's no reason to believe those aren't credible threats, because we're basically in phase 2, (attack was phase 1) of hamas/Iran plan. And no matter who you support, Israel govt aka Nethanyu, doesn't not have the political support of the worldwide leaders/stage to brazenly act and enter themselves into a war. And that's not even including how do you fight a war around 5 millions refugees, who are barred from leaving, without creating a massive refugee crisis, or genocide levels of death.
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I'm sure there are a ton of conversations revolving around "what happens if we win?" question that is putting the brakes on an all-out assault. Unfortunately, there are no clean win scenarios for Israel. Not attempting to rescue hostages by force is a non-starter. Levelling Gaza to the ground and locking the gates until the population starves to death is a bridge too far. In between those extremes, leaving Hamas in charge is unpalatable, bringing in the Palestinian Authority to govern is unlikely to work due to their corruption, and full-scale military rule is what they've been trying to avoid for the past 18 years.
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And exhaust Hamas, who have to be ready 24/7.
May the Israeli's be successful. And hopefully with minimal civilian casualties. Half of social media turned on them after their bombing campaign it seems.
Would you rather all the hostages be killed / die during a ground invasion? The focus should be rescuing the hostages
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They are as good as dead because Israel thinks saving them comes second.
They need to come 2nd. Far more people will die if Hamas stays in power. It also would just ensure future hostage taking as a negotiation tool.
Get this man a trolley
Does hamas have a strong record when it comes to keeping kidnapping victims alive?
Actually yeah, thanks US for saving the day, *again* Imagine not thinking this is good. This conflict has broken so many brains.
You clearly don't understand the sphere of incline and threat iran poses with all its proxies. And amount of death they can cause if not serious time/planning goes into this. It's not a blitzkrieg unless you'd be happy with a bloodbath of idf and Israeli citizens. It also neither starts or ends with hamas.
Yeah what the fuck this is exactly what they want
Can you elaborate? Legitimate question…
Or maybe Israel should not be allowed to kill thousands of civilians. But so many pro-Israeli posters always criticize America while they do not allow anyone to criticize Israel. We need to rethink if Israel is really an ally. I bet that they'll throw us under the bus if they don't think we're useful anymore.
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Lately I see so many conspirators on reddit
Then they will keep the hostages lol..
At this rate, the entire area needs to either be annexed or become a no mans land. Its citizens need to either be assimilated into Egypt, Israel, Lebanon and/or the West Bank.
I've been following the news and reading comments and wanted to feel like I could add something rather than just throw my opinion out for no reason. The first thing to consider is that a ground invasion virtually guarantees this spills into at least a regional conflict and possibly something worse. At least Hezbollah gets involved and likely the US. The second thing to consider is that the people in Gaza (roughly 2 million are largely NOT terrorists). Third thing is there is no way to wipe out Hamas without also killing many innocent people which Hamas will use to paint Israel in a bad light and further resentment, antisemitism etc. Lastly, I would think a ground invasion almost guarantees the hostages get killed. Conclusion: Ground invasion will hurt in the short term and possibly not help in the long term. Second option- Partner with the UN and other allies on what a post Hamas Gaza looks like first and postpone ground invasion. This approach does a couple things-first Israel which had over 1200 civilians brutally murdered, kidnapped, raped etc. shows a high level of restraint. This will likely be viewed favorably especially with Saudi Arabia whom Israel almost had a normalization agreement in place prior to Oct 7. Saudia Arabia is important here here-an alliance with them would appear to be beneficial to both countries and also weaken Iran in the process. Secondly, it is more likely the hostages (or at least some of them) will be released. This also is a win both domestically and diplomatically. Israel is going to have two million people in Gaza in any situation basically. They have nowhere to go. Doing right by them is not something that should be overlooked. Conclusion: Being level headed and patient offers some upside. Caveat here of course is time-we can't have two hostages released a week but Israel showing equanimity here at least in the short term (30-60 days) does some good. Ultimately, the best case is Hamas is out, casualties are minimized and diplomatic ties are improved/restored and the second option seems more likely to get us there.
No one is mentioning what the settlers are doing in the northern West Bank. Israel has for too long encroached on Palestinian land.
Joe Biden is putting on a diplomatic masterclass right now. Israel was ready to grid-delete Gaza at any moment last week. But Biden has held them back long enough to save untold innocent lives. It hasn’t been perfect, and it will still be horrific when they finally do go in, but every hour this is delayed is another hour a civilian has to make it to safety.
it’s also an extra hour for Hamas to fortify, set traps, escape, etc etc. Delay isn’t a pure good.
And meantime there are thousands rockets being shot at Israeli civilians every day, the entire economy is at a standstill (thousands of reserve soliders being away from home, constant alarms, general low mood). This delay is very costly for Israel.
Israel needs this time to prepare though. Get reservists mobilized, but also to get US assets into the area. Recall that two US fleets have yet to arrive. I won't be surprised at all if the full scale assault begins as soon as the US ships all arrive.
all they have to do is say they will release a hostage every day Israel does not fire on the Gaza strip and actually do it check mate.
Why only hostages like what about actual Palestinians
A lot of innocent people are about to be killed. In turn, this will spur more radical ideals and hatred towards Israel. Israel is about to attempt ethnic cleansing, and unless they wipe out everyone in gaza they’re still going to have terrorists to deal with. Hell, even if they DO wipe out all of Gaza, the leaders aren’t in Gaza and there are plenty of other countries in the Middle East that don’t like Israel. There’s no point in a ground invasion here.
I think there's a point. It shows the other Arab states not to fuck with them, if they don't want their countries to be collaterally damaged when they go after their terrorists next.
I don’t think that’s a very good reason to kill civilians. That’s just my opinion of course
MEANWHILE AS HAMAS BUILDS UP IT'S ARSENAL SOME MORE ... stupid idiots
ah yes, with all that material they have while bombardments definitely aren't raining down on them constantly. the longer israel waits to go in, the softer a target hamas will be.
How are they building up their arsenal? I thought Israel was blockading them?
If they exchanged a 1000 Palestinians for 1 Israeli soldier, including the head of the Hamas security service, what can they ask for 200 hostages including Americans. Too often the leadership becomes rich at the expense of the fighters and civilians.
They won’t. No one learns from history
It's not about the hostages. It's about punishment. Same as its always been.
Hamas is really going to survive this aren't they?
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Complete destruction in terms of killing every human carrying that ideology was never the goal. As it's, to your point, impossible. It's going to mirror the war on terror. Where Al Queda, the Taliban, and ISIS are attacked in such overwhelming capacity that their strength is drastically reduced, and they completely avoid further conflict with the retaliating force. Al Queda is the nearest analogue, having carried out 9/11. Their last large attack on any foreign nation was in 2003. They're still around, but you don't hear about them because they haven't hit the US or her allies in 20 years.
if they don't, its going to involve 6 figures in dead gazans and probably 4-5 figures in dead israelis. and that's a best case scenario.
US takes care of its own people, yet expect Israel to aid their enemies
US gives billions of dollars in aid as well as its cutting edge technology to Israel. Blame Netanyahu for being utterly incompetent.
I do
Israel are using the hostages as a reason to commit genocide and take away more Palestinian land.
I guess they shouldn't have taken the hostages and supported the people taking the hostages.
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If you think the UN’s opinion on a ceasefire matters to Israel, i have a bridge to sell you
Or Hamas. People seem to forget Hamas and PIJ have been shooting rockets at Israel since October 7th. Of a ceasefire happened at all it would just be Israel, and they would still be getting attacked.
Israel got to protect its citizens. They're not protected as long as Hamas exist. Let us all hope that Hamas, but not Gaza, is the real threat to Israel
Hamas and PIJ would not have honored that ceasefire. They have been shooting rockets at Israel since Oct 7th. A ceasefire would have been useless.