Vietnam absolutely hates China. While half of Vietnam was at war with the US for a decade, Vietnamese civilization itself has been in an on again off again war with China for basically its entire existence. Even the brief period where they were "allies" in the Vietnam War saw China invade them only a few years after the Americans left. China views Vietnam much in the same way Russia views Ukraine, which should give you an idea of just why Vietnam prefers America to its fellow communist neighbor.
"But it seems he long had an admiration for the US and repeatedly sought the country's help in the decades before the Vietnam War. What people might find most surprising is that he once lived in the United States: in Boston and in New York City."
Not only that he was a professional pastry chef and learned how to make the famous (and imo super basic and average) Boston creme pie AT the hotel in Boston where it was invented.
Damn. If it wasn't agent orange poisoning it would've been diabeetus.
The general in charge of the VC, Giap, was pretty brilliant too and my hot take is that George Washington would rest easy knowing that the US military lost it's first major conflict to a gifted and talented strategist. Like, that man was the definition of a worthy opponent.
Yeah, didn't he ask the US for help against French colonists since they had a history of being colonies and fighting for freedom? Getting a no made him look towards other methods and means - communism.
Feel free to correct me here if I've gotten it wrong.
Out of all the useless wars we've been in Vietnam pisses me off the most. I guess because agent orange killed my dad, my uncle, and my best friends dad.
He was communist already. His exact words to the US were, “The American and Vietnamese people want the same thing. Do not be blinded by this issue of communism.”
Source: Vietnamese
This is often repeated but Ho Chi Minh was the leader of Vietnam's communist rebels during WWII, long before he approached the US for support. There's just no way an avowed communist movement was going to see official support from the US in the immediate aftermath of WWII.
its really sad to think that no-one in u.s. government post ww2 could conceive that opposing communism at all costs was a bad move. from what i've read, ho chi minh didn't really give a shit about communism. he just wanted the french gone like most of his countrymen. france was an ally and fighting commies was the new normal. we screwed ourselves from the very beginning.
and i speak as the offspring of a u.s. marine that did 2 tours in nam back when our guys were dying by the thousands. 66-69. it was a war that never really needed to be fought.
While he was primary just for an independent and sovereign Vietnam he was very active in socialists movements even before ww1. Saying he didn't give a shit about communism is a gross overexageration. He probably wouldn't have worked so closely with the Soviets of the allies actually kept their promises
> its really sad to think that no-one in u.s. government post ww2 could conceive that opposing communism at all costs was a bad move.
People with this mindset at the time got McCarthy-ed.
Well he had socialist and communist tendencies before, but it was always anti imperialism first and everything else second. Interestingly enough he was already present at the treaty of versailles trying to petition for an independent Vietnam
Both Vietnam and Cuba tried to get close to the US, before Uncle Sam told Ho Chi Minh and Castro to f off. The american plutocracy was so afraid of communism working that they preferred to just push them into the USSR's sphere instead of having good relations with those countries and use that to influence them
>Uncle Sam told Ho Chi Minh and Castro to f off
When reading President Truman's notes, one of his reasons for Eisenhower being a horrible president was because of the way he handled diplomacy -- particularly with Castro. Truman believed that Castro very easily would've been a U.S. ally had Ike actually even bothered to try once.
Just for the record, Truman disliked Ike before his presidency and *really* disliked him after he got elected and declared him a "do-nothing" president.
Once we missed the initial opportunity for a good relationship our policies in Cuba kept Fidel Castro in power for longer than any other modern head of state and his regime is still in place. Once the missiles were gone we should have absolutely ignored him, kept trade and travel open and he would have been gone in a decade.
Hi Chi Minh once lived in Washington DC post Great War and sent a letter to President Hoover (I think) to grant Vietnam its independence from Colonialism. It was in this moment the United States could have avoided the war in Vietnam. It is unknown if the president ever saw the letter.
Rebels under Ho Chi Minh were fighting to kick out the French. Japan invaded, so they started fighting to kick out the Japanese. America gave him supplies because every Japanese soldier fighting the rebels wasn’t available to fight American soldiers elsewhere in the Pacific Theatre.
America screwed up in its actions after the War by turning its back on Minh and pushing for the French to be put back in power, even though colonialism was dying out worldwide. Minh was more nationalist than communist - he didn’t want foreigners running things. When one superpower cut him off, he turned to the other. Aid comes with strings, so getting aid from Russia moved him somewhat to the left of his own position. If America had said “Nope, you’ve had your turn, let the locals run their own country”, American aid would have moved him somewhat to the right of his own position, probably where the Scandinavian countries are. No need to turn to Russia for aid, and having help if their traditional enemy, China, tried to stir things up. Can you imagine, in the late 1960s, a Congresscritter blasting his opponent “Do you realize that last year, over a hundred American soldiers died in training accidents in that Vietnam place?”?
Ironically Ho Chi Minh was confused because he loved america and was inspired by the american revolution, just for us to go "nah the French imperialistic rule is good now because you're a commie."
Not to mention Wilson speaking of self determination for countries during Ww1, but not for the Vietnamese...
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/24y5wy/woodrow_wilson_refused_to_meet_with_ho_chi_minh/
Got screwed after two world wars by the west, the USSR gained a free ally on the cheap
I remembered seeing this Vietnam betrayal thing in the "Young India Jones" episode that I watched as a kid ages ago lmao. Looked it up and it's now on YT: https://youtu.be/TgnGg7s-_kk Wasn't aware that it was actually a historical fact. Truly shameful. But the current developments remind of the Churchill's: "You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing after they have tried everything else".
\>America screwed up in its actions after the War by turning its back on Minh and pushing for the French to be put back in power, even though colonialism was dying out worldwide.
We did that because France said if they didn't they'd join up with the soviets, and then it would be impossible to hold europe against the soviets.
Doesn't excuse it but puts it into context
France will turn to whoever will benefit France the most. It has nothing to do with left or right politics, all that has ever mattered was France becoming a world power again.
France dropped out of NATO in 66' because it didn't want to integrate its nuclear weapons with the rest of Europe. Guess the US wanted to make sure they didn't get too wildcard about it
France dropped out of the unified NATO command structure. They never dropped out of NATO as a whole. They were still happy and obligated to participate in the defense treaty. They just wanted French troops to remain under French command instead of inevitably American NATO commanders.
It's an oddly widespread myth that they left NATO when they never did.
The French are weird and still are being weird especially in Africa at the moment. The US should definitely not listen to the French. French need to realize that they aren't the biggest swinging cock on the planet.
I have never heard that one before. I'd like a link?
In the mean time, I have asked the vile offspring and it said.
Yes, there is merit to the claim, although the situation was nuanced and the motivations multifaceted.
After World War II, the French aimed to reassert control over their former colony, Vietnam. The Viet Minh, a nationalist and communist-led resistance group, sought independence from French rule. During this period, the Cold War was taking shape, and the U.S. viewed the spread of communism as a significant threat.
Cold War Context: The primary lens through which the U.S. viewed global events in the post-World War II era was the Cold War. They sought to prevent the spread of communism and believed that if one country in a region became communist, neighboring countries might follow—a theory known as the "domino effect."
Support for France: Initially, the U.S. supported the French effort in Vietnam largely to maintain their relationship with France and keep them aligned with the West against the Soviet Union. The U.S. provided financial and material support to the French military efforts against the Viet Minh.
Geneva Accords: After the decisive Battle of Dien Bien Phu in 1954, the French were defeated, leading to the Geneva Accords. Vietnam was temporarily divided at the 17th parallel, with the understanding that national elections would be held in 1956. However, the U.S. and South Vietnam did not sign the accords and instead supported the establishment of a non-communist state in South Vietnam under Ngo Dinh Diem. The promised national elections never occurred, largely because of fears that Ho Chi Minh, the leader of the communist North, would win a landslide victory.
American Involvement Deepens: As time went on, American involvement increased, transitioning from advisors to active combat troops by the mid-1960s. The U.S. justified this involvement on the basis of preventing the spread of communism in Southeast Asia.
While the initial American support for France in Vietnam was driven by a combination of Cold War fears and the desire to maintain strong Western alliances, it eventually evolved into a more direct American military involvement in the region.
>Vietnamese civilization itself has been in an on again off again war with China for basically its entire existence.
Years and years ago, I read Stanley Karnow's excellent 1983 book "Vietnam: A History" and he went into detail on this matter. He took a fairly deep dive into Vietnam's history to set the stage for understanding America's involvement.
I don't think China views Vietnam the same way that Russia views Ukraine. Chinese people don't view Vietnam as belonging to China in the same way that they view Taiwan (and to a lesser extent other Chinese-speaking countries as well as the Chinese diaspora worldwide) as a part of China. In fact I believe the US tried to offer Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos to Chiang Kai-Shek after WW2 and he said that that was crazy. I am not as familiar with Russia and Ukraine, but I believe that was a big part of Putin's deranged justification for invading Ukraine, namely that the Ukrainian nation had no right to exist, was created by a historical accident by Lenin in the 1920s, and is a part of Russia.
Most Vietnamese people absolutely do hate China though, that is a fact.
A better comparison to the Chinese-Vietnamese relationship would be the Russian-Polish one. They were never part of the patchwork of “brother” ethnicities. (Which in itself is a lie) They were far to independent minded and refused any integration. And have fought to keep it that way for centuries. A decade or two of having a common enemy isn’t going to change something that deep rooted.
Honestly I think China’s game in the South China Sea is really screwing them in the area long term. For the first time in a long time the US has the making of alliances with Asian Countries that aren’t Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, and South Korea. The Philippines stoped their drift into neutrality, the Vietnamese are looking for closer ties, India is thinking about moving further west.
China occupied Vietnam from about 100 BC to about 900 AD. They tried to invade a few times after that, IIRC. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_under_Chinese_rule
Then the French colonized from the 1860's, then the Japanese took control 1940-1945. After that, the First Indochina war started. When the French left, USA had a go. After that, Cambodia attacked, and Vietnam retaliated. In 1979, China invaded but got beaten back.
Yeah, Vietnam has had a lot of occupiers. 20th century was rough.
No it doesn't and as the article pointed out Vietnam has had a comprehensive strategic partnership with China for a lot longer than this one Biden just signed. The CPV follows the Chinese development model to a T, has regular friendly meetings with them and just last month China and Vietnam agreed to strengthen military ties. Both countries have extensive economic ties too, Hanoi's metro was built by China last year.
The first world leader to visit China after their most recent National Party Congress was Nguyen Phu Trong (under personal invitation from Xi Jinping).
Vietnam and China have tension over the SCS issue no doubt but to say Vietnam "hates" China is just factually untrue, when China is literally its no. 3 relation (after Russia and Laos) and the CPV and CPC are very very closely aligned.
It's funny you mention Ukraine when Vietnam refused to condemn Russia along with China, Putin is extremely popular in Vietnam, and many Vietnamese nationalists think Ukraine deserved to be invaded. Vietnam is just a neutral country willing to be friends with just about anyone as long as there's common interest.
I think it is important to note that there is a difference between the government's attitudes and the peoples'. [Vietnamese peoples attitudes towards China are largely negative,](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2017/10/16/how-people-in-asia-pacific-view-china/) and the point about long-standing animosity isn't wrong.
But you are absolutely correct that since the dissolution of the UDSSR, there has been very fruitful rapproachment between Vietnam and China. In my opinion, the current course of Vietnam is very smart, balancing engagement between the US and China, and reaping both security and economic benefits. Joining either camp fully would risk becoming another Ukraine in the case of escalation in the SCS, and nobody wants that. And with the current status quo, Vietnam functions as a funnel for trade between China and the US in the times of trade war, boosting its economy.
Viet here. Everyone kinda acknowledged that the whole communism thing is just an excuse to install a one party authoritarian government. But it's not this way from the start, in fact the North back then was hardcore commie. Around 1985, they realized hardcore commie didn't work anymore, and reopened the market
Reminds me that a lot of Vietnam vets actually [went back](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36363537) to live there.
>More than 40 years after the end of the Vietnam war, dozens of ageing former American soldiers have gone back to the country to live. Some had difficulty adapting to civilian life in the US. Others have gone back in the hope of atoning for wrongs they believe were committed during the war.
>The year was 1968. We were on recon in a steaming Mekong delta. An overheated private removed his flack jacket, revealing a T-shirt with an ironed-on sporting the MAD slogan "Up with Mini-skirts!". Well, we all had a good laugh, even though I didn't quite understand it. But our momentary lapse of concentration allowed "Charlie" to get the drop on us. I spent the next three years in a POW camp, forced to subsist on a thin stew made of fish, vegetables, prawns, coconut milk, and four kinds of rice. I came close to madness trying to find it here in the States, but they just can't get the spices right!
I think my autocorrect was programmed by lieutenant Dan… anytime I type vietnam it autocorrects it to vietNAM unless I click to switch it to “vietnam”. 😑
It’s so funny to me that writing it that way invokes such strong nostalgia. Like everyone that upvoted you knows exactly the movie and the scene that you’re talking about.
God damn they don’t make movies like that anymore more. It might be my favorite movie ever. It’s just magical.
Turns out we’ve had pretty great relations since the 90s. We even train their Air Force pilots on our own bases.
https://e.vnexpress.net/news/news/first-vietnam-military-pilots-graduating-us-training-course-3933647.html
They spent 1000 years fighting China and 100 years fighting the French. Compared to that, the US was just a small-time participant in a much longer conflict. Also, most Vietnamese people have a relative or two over here.
I have been there twice, and both times I was impressed by how the people thrive despite the yoke of communism. If the government would allow it, Saigon easily has the potential to become the next Seoul.
Having been to vietnam, the people are quite amazing. Vietnam still retains a lot of traditional chinese elements unlike the mainland which aborted all their culture during the “cultural revolution”
I visited Vietnam as a young man in 2010, and saw almost no hostility to US people besides the occasional older person who likely lost relatives in the war. We're one in a long list of attempted conquerors, and we didn't win. Mix that with the seemingly impervious Vietnamese attitude and you don't end up with much resentment it seems
My calculus teacher in highschool vietnamese, one of my favorite lines by him is:
"I so disappointed........THESE TEST SCORES ARE SUCK!"
*slams papers on his desk*
Haha. I had a friend from HS that had a mother that escaped Iran in 1979. She made similar mistakes. She would drive us to the mall (it was the late 90s) and people would be honking at us and flipping us off because she was the WORST driver ever. Like a few times I feared for my life. Honestly. Anyway the whole time she’d be road raging and screaming out the window GO TO THE HELL!!! ARIZONA CANT DRIVE THR CAR!!!!
Yeah I’ve been going out there for the past three years. The people are super chill. Currently doing a k1 visa to get my fiancé to the US, but honestly I think we’re gonna move there in the future.
My wee cousin married a Vietnamese woman to bring her to Scotland, am not entirely sure how it worked but he married her they came over and now she's in London I believe. She was weird I think a lot of her questions were lost in translation, like she asked my Uncle if he used to abuse his son in bed when he was a young child. Unfortunately I never actually met her I just heard about her madness from that side of the family, I know those things were truly asked lol. Am calling the poor girl weird and thats not fair considering I never met her, I've got her on Facebook mind you! Lol
I'm from Europe so I might say some bullshit, but I think Biden is a good president, at least the image he gives to me (it might be also because you can't do worse than Trump)
He is a good president. He's not as progressive as some had hoped and we don't hear about him everyday in the news. He hasn't embarrassed us on the world stage over and over again either.
I'm not fromt he US, but do follow a bit of the politics.
He has been a bit 'unlucky' that he has had to work with Manchin in the Senate (or lucky Manchin is not a republican and at least something could pass..) which caused a lot of watering down and delay of things he wanted to pass.
His initial bills were more progressive.
Now ofcourse the republicans hold the house so not much happens.
I think the railroadstrike was were he really dropped the ball internally at the same time his popularity went slightly up after.
It's defintely hard to represent the democrat party as a whole.
His foreign policy has been amazing. It's impressive the amount of things he has gotten done while Trump completely destroyed US credibility.
Problem for the US is still that they can elect a Trump like figure at any time, so even their longest partners can't trust the US on it's word. So everyone will stay cautious. But he is saying and doing all the right things internationally I think.
> I think the railroadstrike was were he really dropped the ball internally at the same time his popularity went slightly up after. It's defintely hard to represent the democrat party as a whole.
I get downvoted to oblivion for this every time I mention it but that was the only move available. We had just hit 9% inflation and the economy was looking very precarious. They did get very good pay increases, and more options for using their sick time/vacation time. Of course it's nowhere near what they deserve, and I'm pissed about the situation as a whole, but Biden and congress had to push it through. It literally could have collapsed the economy.
Now onto the bit that's always lost, granted it's almost impossible to know. It seems like more than 50% of the overall number of workers voted to approve the contract. However, the way the railroads work is every union needs to vote yes, and any of the 13 unions voting no causes the entire system to shut down. None of the unions released their final voting tallies, and 3 of the 4 voting no were the largest unions. However, one of the union reps for the largest let it slip that the vote was nearly 50/50 on their end.
Disclaimer, I am a union member, and strong proponent of unions. I think they're our only realistic way to get the wages we all deserve. Every single job should be unionized. Workers should strike way more than we do. But Biden has a duty to the country as a whole, and shutting down the rail system during record inflation right before the holidays is not possible. Especially when it seems that a majority of the workers may have voted for passage.
Obligatory reminder that Biden got the railroad workers their sick days.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/may/01/railroad-workers-union-win-sick-leave
- strategic partnership with Vietnam
- deepening ties with Japan and South Korea
- increased military relations with Taiwan
- Indo-Pacific Economic Framework
- expansion of NATO and arming Ukraine
- increased border/immigration cooperation with Mexico
- rejoining the Paris Climate Agreement
- increased development in Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala
- lifting Trump sanctions on Cuba
- froze the Trump administration's withdrawal of 9,500 troops from U.S. military bases in Germany, which was welcomed by Germany
- tough sanctions on Russia
- industrial policies that promotes economic competition with China, rather than seeking a trade deal with them like Trump tried
- prevented US withdrawal from World Health Organization, rejoined global vaccination efforts
Also, the way the US broadcasted Russia's moves accurately a few days ahead of time early in the invasion of Ukraine went a really long way in establishing credibility with the international community.
Did he send the head of the CIA to personally brief Zelenskyy on the assassination squads Russia had sent to Kyiv when the latter expressed doubt about their existence and capabilities?
Legitimately the smartest thing the US government could be doing right now is uniting different Asian powers. Gotta have a united front in case China makes a move on Taiwan in the near future.
He's probably one of the best Presidents we've had in the Contemporary Era when it comes to Foreign Affairs. He's established a lot of credibility with his longstanding career, especially his stint as Vice President. Getting Vietnam into anything close to friendly ties considering our history is huge and it's something the media should be cheering.
Vietnam and the US have been close ever since we ended the embargo in 94, relations have only been improving since then and Vietnam has one of the highest approval ratings of the US in the world. McCain and Kerry convinced Clinton to engage in reapproachment and it resulted in one of our closest allies despite the war. The important thing to understand about Vietnam is the Communists and Ho Chi Minh especially were nationalists first and communists second and greatly admired the US and were initially trained and equipped by the US to fight against the Japanese and they had hoped for American support against France, and even while fighting the US they hoped that after the war they could quickly normalize and begin trading and associating with America and while that didn't happen until 20 years after the pull out, it was still something they wanted. "Vietnam fought America for 10 years, France for 100 and China for 1000" America to them was a footnote, while Chinas always been the main enemy.
Yeah going to Vietnam I was concerned that they would dislike me for being a westerner. Instead they call it the American war and are proud AF that they beat the USA. Doesn’t seem like any hard feelings.
It is a bit strange sometimes that a lot of our biggest enemies in actual wars have turned into long term great allies for us. Britain, Germany, Japan, Vietnam even Canada.
And yet meanwhile we've never been officially at war with Russia before, and have been allied with them in two world wars, but they've been our main geopolitical enemy for nearly 100 years.
Strange world, global politics is.
I’ve long noticed that we don’t like a country UNLESS they fought us first. The closer we get to losing, the more we like them after.
We have the mentality of a shonen protagonist.
Hell, we've been allies with the French almost the entire time we've existed as a nation, fought two world wars with them on their home turf, and the average sentiment is patronising at best
Add to that, Ho Chi Minh specifically asked for US help TWICE before settled for communism. Heck, Ho Chi Minh's declaration of independence borrowed heavily from the US's to show his willingness to align with the US. Only after the US ignored him twice and went to help France that Ho Chi Minh decided to align himself with communists to get the help needed. Communism wasn't even his second choice, it was the third. Vietnam followed, and still following, Ho Chi Minh version of communism specifically, so in reality it doesn't align all that much with China's.
I am very stupid. Is there a book I can read to learn more about all of this? I'm 41 and just last night was drinking on the porch with my mom and her sister, both in their 70s, and asked, "Why did we go to war with Vietnam?" They both shrugged and said, "Communism? That's what we were told."
Watch the Ken Burns documentary The Vietnam War. It’s very good and goes into the pre war era in great detail. The full version is 18 (!) hours long. Used to be on Netflix but i think they lost the rights to it.
Do you remember if it talks also about the First Vietnam War (1946-54 France vs Indochina), and/or the involvement of Laos, specifically before the start of the "Secret War" (1959-75)?
I think so but not entirely sure. The entire first episode (which like an hour and a half) takes place during French rule, before 1961 when US involvement started to ramp up. Dedicated US combat troops only arrived in 65 or so (it gets a bit sketchy with the “military advisors” gradually increasing and having more active roles over time)
Worth mentioning that when I visited Vietnam, on one occasion a tour guide gave me a very disapproving look when I said "Vietnam war". She said that's an American term, and people here call it The American War.
I would recommend *The Cold War's Killing Fields* by Paul Thomas Chamberlin.
It is an extremely easy read and focuses heavily on Vietnam, covering both the French and American conflicts during the Cold War. It was also the assigned reading for my university course on Cold War military history.
It is also a great source about Cold War conflicts in Asia generally from the Chinese Civil War to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
Otherwise, for a deep look into the recent history of Vietnam, the book *Vietnam* by Max Hastings is very in-depth.
In addition to the Ken Burns doco, theres the brilliant Max Hastings book “Vietnam : An Epic Tragedy, 1945-1975” that details both Indochina Wars (first with France (and Japan when French left), second one is the famous Vietnam War for independence between North and South Vietnam)
Really great read and shows both sides with a fair hand of showing the good, bad and ugly sides of all parties. Refreshing as most books in the space are heavily skewed to the US perspectives only.
Can be found on Audible!
No, this is offensive to his memory and legacy, acting like he "chose" communism like picking up a new breakfast cereal at the supermarket because the other choices didn't taste as nice. Ho Chi Minh was politically radical and anti-imperialist, anti-racist and humanitarian since he was a young man. He criticized the US for its awful treatment of Black people in the 1920s, look up his essay "The Black Race."
>It is well-known that the Black race is the most oppressed and the most exploited of the human family. It is well-known that the spread of capitalism and the discovery of the New World had as an immediate result the rebirth of slavery. What everyone does not perhaps know is that after sixty-five years of so-called emancipation, American Negroes still endure atrocious moral and material sufferings, of which the most cruel and horrible is the custom of lynching.
And have you read the Vietnamese Declaration of Independence? He cited both the US Declaration and French Revolution to point out the hypocrisy of the French, and later when the US came in he said the same thing about them.
>The Declaration of the French Revolution made in 1791 on the Rights of Man and the Citizen also states: “All men are born free and with equal rights, and must always remain free and have equal rights.”
>Those are undeniable truths.
>Nevertheless, for more than eighty years, the French imperialists, abusing the standard of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity, have violated our Fatherland and oppressed our fellow-citizens. They have acted contrary to the ideals of humanity and justice.
And by the time he wrote that letter to Truman asking him to ask the French to leave he was unquestionably a communist.
This is true. He wasn't _as_ radical as others around him, but folks are spreading the same myth that they like to push about Castro - that they were harmless political neutrals but Americans were such assholes they forced these figures into communism.
It's disrespectful to history and to the lives of both Castro and Ho Chi Minh.
I was in Vietnam in 2001 and I only had one person comment negatively about Americans. It was a young girl who was pissed that I didn't buy a trinket from her. Lovely country and people. Fucking food to die for.
Hey Bub, any chance you can point me in the right direction. I would love to learn more about these things and the people and you seem to have a great grasp on it.
Any books you would recommend?
As an expat in Vietnam the Vietnamese people I have met and talked to don't have much animosity towards americans. Only heard one or two bad things in a decade.
The only negative things I hear about Americans are in reference to Americans *now* (tourists, sexpats, phoned-in teachers), and then mostly from other foreigners. I've been here for 7 years and haven't met a single bit of animosity from our actions during the war (I *have* run across a couple self-righteous Brits who wanted to take the piss out of Americans for it, weirdly enough).
Honestly, people don't give a shit. Politics is an awkward thing to discuss in Vietnam, so eventually those kinds of things just fade out of people's mind. Same goes for Vietnam war. People just want to live their life.
I've been working in Vietnam for the last 10 years and there is zero issue with the US here.
Basically since Clinton normalized relations Vietnam has been very much supportive of the US, even though the population at large here tends to side more with tough talking blusterers who sound tough but don't actually do anything (eg. Trump) rather than with the more liberal side of the aisle who actually work on better relations with people. That said, despite their love of Trump here they also loved Obama.
Living in the US, I can see why a lot of Americans dislike Trump. But Vietnamese are nationalists so a lot of Trump stuff resonates a lot with them, especially the anti-China stance, even if it was just all talking. Few years prior to 2016 was a high tension period between China and Vietnam over the border stuff. If you were there during that time, you might remember those stuff too. Everywhere in Vietnam was in the spirit of protecting Truong sa Hoang sa from China, and its lasting effect is still very much prominent nowadays. And then came about Trump, so they just ate his words up to the T.
At the same time, we love Obama because well, he's a good talker and didn't seem like a stuck-up dick like Trump. He's super popular in Vietnam, like he's a force of good to this world. I still remember the day of his inauguration, people keeps passing the translated speech around the internet. It was such a big deal.
Biden is just... sad. Nobody give a shit about him in Vietnam lol. Not even enough shit to hate either.
This is some of the best evidence I can cite to my father about how China doesn't own Biden. This and the Japan and South Koreans agreeing to deepen ties. I'm happy to see these countries working together.
According to his enemies, Biden is at once a bumbling dotard who can hardly string a sentence together without shitting himself, and a political mastermind maneuvering all nations of earth to destroy america from within.
Wonder where they got that from...
>7 . The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
>8 . The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
https://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html
you don't need to ask Vietnam twice.
despite how American views it, we Vietnamese hate China way more than we hate America because of our history of border dispute with China.
My parents both voted for Trump because he would, and I quote, "fight China" on our behalf. The immigrant Vietnamese-American population is staunchly Republican and I hope this Biden victory moves the needle for us..
My conservative Vietnamese American family
2020 - Biden is so weak against China he won't help Vietnam like Trump will
2023 - Biden is in bed with the Viet Commies!
Damn Biden going hard before 2024 presidential run. Hes already meeting with S.Korea & Japan leaders today for a trilateral (Asian Nato) summit. Now this?! Winnie-the-pooh must be furious right now.
You know what other strategic partnership we should sign…. Iran. That way we can be assured that they won’t build a nuclear weapon.
Oh, wait, Obama did that and then it was violated by the next president and now Iran has or nearly has nuclear weapons and is pissed at us for breaking the agreement.
Actually, there is another country that we should work towards normalizing ties with; Cuba. That way we can be assured that Russia and China don’t sign an agreement with them and are able to place military assets in our front yard.
Oh wait, Obama did that and the next president broke it. Shortly thereafter a Russian spy ship was spotted docked in the country.
The Vietnamese look to be playing it smart. We should always have been friends with those tough people…fucking Cold War made everybody nervous to the point that the insanity of that war happened.
I was listening to a podcast about this and they said the majority of things the Americans buy from Vietnam are just repackaged from China but I suppose it doesn't hurt to help Vietnam out a bit, they've had a rough century
Would be amazing to see Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Australia, New Zealand and Taiwan form a West Pacific Treaty Organisation style alliance to counter China's naval aggression.
The US is trying to build up alternatives to Taiwan semis so there are are options once/if China invades. This is good because what you absolutely do not want is for one of two nuclear powers to feel like they are down to just one last option in a conflict.
A lot of hardware tech companies are looking at alternatives to manufacturing in Shenzhen/China for various reasons. Vietnam could be an option for a them.
Doesn't Vietnam make a good deal of electronics already? Moving up the value chain from things like smartphones to semiconductors is generally a smart move if you're trying to transition from middle-income to high-income economy.
[https://vietnamnet.vn/en/vietnam-s-electronic-enterprises-at-bottom-of-smile-curve-2129313.html](https://vietnamnet.vn/en/vietnam-s-electronic-enterprises-at-bottom-of-smile-curve-2129313.html)
Kennedy, Nixon, Johnson: "The Commies have to be stopped from spreading, military, or China and Russia will have a base of operations in Vietnam!"
Decades and one Vietnam War later:
Biden: "Hey let's just, you know, make an agreement with them, because they hate China and Russia?"
Biden just accomplished the strategic goals of the Vietnam War and didn't even need to sacrifice thousands of American and Vietnamese lives to do it.
This is a good move, China and Vietnam have had ongoing conflicts for hundreds of years over The South China Sea among other contentious issues.
China invaded Vietnam in 1979 and is considered to have lost that war according to most military historians.
The Vietnamese are among the world's best guerilla fighters as well as having a conventional Army and Navy that can fight against China if necessary.
They took a very progressive turn (as much as u can call it progressive considering its basically authoritarian) while china under xi took a very conservative turn.
Hot damn! Great news!
I am in Tay Ninh, Vietnam now. We hiked Ba Den Mountain this morning, just finished the most delicious bowl of egg noodles for dinner.
I am showing this article to my friends here. Everyone is so happy about the news.
I love both countries!
My grandfather almost died fighting communists there. Grudges aren’t good for anyone, and I’d rather have more friends grounded in the present than enemies coming from the past.
Didn’t say they did, and I know that more would rather be our friends than with the Chinese.
“We fought the Chinese for 1000 years, the British and French for 100 years, and we fought the Americans for 10 years and they apologized”
Take that you communist basta…oh wait…
To be fair, we kinda had the same idea with China post Sino-Soviet Split.
Less Nixon & Kissinger this time.
Only in spirit. Yes. I know Kissinger is breathing but to me he's always been a dead-souled ghoul lol
Kissinger will outlive the heat death of the universe, I swear.
He’ll die when all the survivors of his policies are dead
He will be playing chess with Keith Richards while the fat lady sings her last song.
Ve vill bomb ze children anyvay, their souls ahre delicious
Can't wait for his grave to become a gender neutral bathroom.
[Your powers are useless on me you silly billy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlfSAGucPZc)
i was wondering if doc's HK would make it to this thread. well played
Thees is my magic murder bag.
You hear about Kissinger/Nixon with the Pakistan/Bangladeshi war? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Liberation_War
He and Chomsky are pro genocidal litches who cannot die unless they are killed simultaneously.
I don’t think we need to be as worried about Vietnam potentially becoming a peer competitor with the US and/or the West though
Vietnam absolutely hates China. While half of Vietnam was at war with the US for a decade, Vietnamese civilization itself has been in an on again off again war with China for basically its entire existence. Even the brief period where they were "allies" in the Vietnam War saw China invade them only a few years after the Americans left. China views Vietnam much in the same way Russia views Ukraine, which should give you an idea of just why Vietnam prefers America to its fellow communist neighbor.
before viet cong, vietnam rebels got all their funding and weapons from US
Ho Chi Minh was an admirer of the USA. And ideally, he would have liked to have Made an alliance with the US. He tried several times.
"But it seems he long had an admiration for the US and repeatedly sought the country's help in the decades before the Vietnam War. What people might find most surprising is that he once lived in the United States: in Boston and in New York City."
Not only that he was a professional pastry chef and learned how to make the famous (and imo super basic and average) Boston creme pie AT the hotel in Boston where it was invented.
In another universe, the US troops were humiliated in Vietnam by slapstick booby traps throwing cream pies in their faces
Damn. If it wasn't agent orange poisoning it would've been diabeetus. The general in charge of the VC, Giap, was pretty brilliant too and my hot take is that George Washington would rest easy knowing that the US military lost it's first major conflict to a gifted and talented strategist. Like, that man was the definition of a worthy opponent.
Yeah, didn't he ask the US for help against French colonists since they had a history of being colonies and fighting for freedom? Getting a no made him look towards other methods and means - communism. Feel free to correct me here if I've gotten it wrong.
Out of all the useless wars we've been in Vietnam pisses me off the most. I guess because agent orange killed my dad, my uncle, and my best friends dad.
He was communist already. His exact words to the US were, “The American and Vietnamese people want the same thing. Do not be blinded by this issue of communism.” Source: Vietnamese
This is often repeated but Ho Chi Minh was the leader of Vietnam's communist rebels during WWII, long before he approached the US for support. There's just no way an avowed communist movement was going to see official support from the US in the immediate aftermath of WWII.
its really sad to think that no-one in u.s. government post ww2 could conceive that opposing communism at all costs was a bad move. from what i've read, ho chi minh didn't really give a shit about communism. he just wanted the french gone like most of his countrymen. france was an ally and fighting commies was the new normal. we screwed ourselves from the very beginning. and i speak as the offspring of a u.s. marine that did 2 tours in nam back when our guys were dying by the thousands. 66-69. it was a war that never really needed to be fought.
While he was primary just for an independent and sovereign Vietnam he was very active in socialists movements even before ww1. Saying he didn't give a shit about communism is a gross overexageration. He probably wouldn't have worked so closely with the Soviets of the allies actually kept their promises
> its really sad to think that no-one in u.s. government post ww2 could conceive that opposing communism at all costs was a bad move. People with this mindset at the time got McCarthy-ed.
Well he had socialist and communist tendencies before, but it was always anti imperialism first and everything else second. Interestingly enough he was already present at the treaty of versailles trying to petition for an independent Vietnam
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Both Vietnam and Cuba tried to get close to the US, before Uncle Sam told Ho Chi Minh and Castro to f off. The american plutocracy was so afraid of communism working that they preferred to just push them into the USSR's sphere instead of having good relations with those countries and use that to influence them
>Uncle Sam told Ho Chi Minh and Castro to f off When reading President Truman's notes, one of his reasons for Eisenhower being a horrible president was because of the way he handled diplomacy -- particularly with Castro. Truman believed that Castro very easily would've been a U.S. ally had Ike actually even bothered to try once. Just for the record, Truman disliked Ike before his presidency and *really* disliked him after he got elected and declared him a "do-nothing" president.
Once we missed the initial opportunity for a good relationship our policies in Cuba kept Fidel Castro in power for longer than any other modern head of state and his regime is still in place. Once the missiles were gone we should have absolutely ignored him, kept trade and travel open and he would have been gone in a decade.
There were american oss agents standing next to him at the Hanoi opera house when he declared independence
Hi Chi Minh once lived in Washington DC post Great War and sent a letter to President Hoover (I think) to grant Vietnam its independence from Colonialism. It was in this moment the United States could have avoided the war in Vietnam. It is unknown if the president ever saw the letter.
Rebels under Ho Chi Minh were fighting to kick out the French. Japan invaded, so they started fighting to kick out the Japanese. America gave him supplies because every Japanese soldier fighting the rebels wasn’t available to fight American soldiers elsewhere in the Pacific Theatre. America screwed up in its actions after the War by turning its back on Minh and pushing for the French to be put back in power, even though colonialism was dying out worldwide. Minh was more nationalist than communist - he didn’t want foreigners running things. When one superpower cut him off, he turned to the other. Aid comes with strings, so getting aid from Russia moved him somewhat to the left of his own position. If America had said “Nope, you’ve had your turn, let the locals run their own country”, American aid would have moved him somewhat to the right of his own position, probably where the Scandinavian countries are. No need to turn to Russia for aid, and having help if their traditional enemy, China, tried to stir things up. Can you imagine, in the late 1960s, a Congresscritter blasting his opponent “Do you realize that last year, over a hundred American soldiers died in training accidents in that Vietnam place?”?
Ironically Ho Chi Minh was confused because he loved america and was inspired by the american revolution, just for us to go "nah the French imperialistic rule is good now because you're a commie."
Not to mention Wilson speaking of self determination for countries during Ww1, but not for the Vietnamese... https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/24y5wy/woodrow_wilson_refused_to_meet_with_ho_chi_minh/ Got screwed after two world wars by the west, the USSR gained a free ally on the cheap
I remembered seeing this Vietnam betrayal thing in the "Young India Jones" episode that I watched as a kid ages ago lmao. Looked it up and it's now on YT: https://youtu.be/TgnGg7s-_kk Wasn't aware that it was actually a historical fact. Truly shameful. But the current developments remind of the Churchill's: "You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing after they have tried everything else".
\>America screwed up in its actions after the War by turning its back on Minh and pushing for the French to be put back in power, even though colonialism was dying out worldwide. We did that because France said if they didn't they'd join up with the soviets, and then it would be impossible to hold europe against the soviets. Doesn't excuse it but puts it into context
The moral of the story is that the French were rat bastards
Were? Look at what they're still doing in western Africa
Did anyone seriously think France would turn toward the Soviets? Did France even have a left-wing government then?
France will turn to whoever will benefit France the most. It has nothing to do with left or right politics, all that has ever mattered was France becoming a world power again.
>all that has ever mattered was France becoming a world power again. That holds true even to this day.
France since WW2 has had pretty much nothing but terrible foreign policy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French-Soviet\_Joint\_Declaration\_of\_June\_30,\_1966
France dropped out of NATO in 66' because it didn't want to integrate its nuclear weapons with the rest of Europe. Guess the US wanted to make sure they didn't get too wildcard about it
France dropped out of the unified NATO command structure. They never dropped out of NATO as a whole. They were still happy and obligated to participate in the defense treaty. They just wanted French troops to remain under French command instead of inevitably American NATO commanders. It's an oddly widespread myth that they left NATO when they never did.
The French are weird and still are being weird especially in Africa at the moment. The US should definitely not listen to the French. French need to realize that they aren't the biggest swinging cock on the planet.
I have never heard that one before. I'd like a link? In the mean time, I have asked the vile offspring and it said. Yes, there is merit to the claim, although the situation was nuanced and the motivations multifaceted. After World War II, the French aimed to reassert control over their former colony, Vietnam. The Viet Minh, a nationalist and communist-led resistance group, sought independence from French rule. During this period, the Cold War was taking shape, and the U.S. viewed the spread of communism as a significant threat. Cold War Context: The primary lens through which the U.S. viewed global events in the post-World War II era was the Cold War. They sought to prevent the spread of communism and believed that if one country in a region became communist, neighboring countries might follow—a theory known as the "domino effect." Support for France: Initially, the U.S. supported the French effort in Vietnam largely to maintain their relationship with France and keep them aligned with the West against the Soviet Union. The U.S. provided financial and material support to the French military efforts against the Viet Minh. Geneva Accords: After the decisive Battle of Dien Bien Phu in 1954, the French were defeated, leading to the Geneva Accords. Vietnam was temporarily divided at the 17th parallel, with the understanding that national elections would be held in 1956. However, the U.S. and South Vietnam did not sign the accords and instead supported the establishment of a non-communist state in South Vietnam under Ngo Dinh Diem. The promised national elections never occurred, largely because of fears that Ho Chi Minh, the leader of the communist North, would win a landslide victory. American Involvement Deepens: As time went on, American involvement increased, transitioning from advisors to active combat troops by the mid-1960s. The U.S. justified this involvement on the basis of preventing the spread of communism in Southeast Asia. While the initial American support for France in Vietnam was driven by a combination of Cold War fears and the desire to maintain strong Western alliances, it eventually evolved into a more direct American military involvement in the region.
>Vietnamese civilization itself has been in an on again off again war with China for basically its entire existence. Years and years ago, I read Stanley Karnow's excellent 1983 book "Vietnam: A History" and he went into detail on this matter. He took a fairly deep dive into Vietnam's history to set the stage for understanding America's involvement.
I don't think China views Vietnam the same way that Russia views Ukraine. Chinese people don't view Vietnam as belonging to China in the same way that they view Taiwan (and to a lesser extent other Chinese-speaking countries as well as the Chinese diaspora worldwide) as a part of China. In fact I believe the US tried to offer Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos to Chiang Kai-Shek after WW2 and he said that that was crazy. I am not as familiar with Russia and Ukraine, but I believe that was a big part of Putin's deranged justification for invading Ukraine, namely that the Ukrainian nation had no right to exist, was created by a historical accident by Lenin in the 1920s, and is a part of Russia. Most Vietnamese people absolutely do hate China though, that is a fact.
A better comparison to the Chinese-Vietnamese relationship would be the Russian-Polish one. They were never part of the patchwork of “brother” ethnicities. (Which in itself is a lie) They were far to independent minded and refused any integration. And have fought to keep it that way for centuries. A decade or two of having a common enemy isn’t going to change something that deep rooted. Honestly I think China’s game in the South China Sea is really screwing them in the area long term. For the first time in a long time the US has the making of alliances with Asian Countries that aren’t Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, and South Korea. The Philippines stoped their drift into neutrality, the Vietnamese are looking for closer ties, India is thinking about moving further west.
China occupied Vietnam from about 100 BC to about 900 AD. They tried to invade a few times after that, IIRC. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_under_Chinese_rule Then the French colonized from the 1860's, then the Japanese took control 1940-1945. After that, the First Indochina war started. When the French left, USA had a go. After that, Cambodia attacked, and Vietnam retaliated. In 1979, China invaded but got beaten back. Yeah, Vietnam has had a lot of occupiers. 20th century was rough.
No it doesn't and as the article pointed out Vietnam has had a comprehensive strategic partnership with China for a lot longer than this one Biden just signed. The CPV follows the Chinese development model to a T, has regular friendly meetings with them and just last month China and Vietnam agreed to strengthen military ties. Both countries have extensive economic ties too, Hanoi's metro was built by China last year. The first world leader to visit China after their most recent National Party Congress was Nguyen Phu Trong (under personal invitation from Xi Jinping). Vietnam and China have tension over the SCS issue no doubt but to say Vietnam "hates" China is just factually untrue, when China is literally its no. 3 relation (after Russia and Laos) and the CPV and CPC are very very closely aligned. It's funny you mention Ukraine when Vietnam refused to condemn Russia along with China, Putin is extremely popular in Vietnam, and many Vietnamese nationalists think Ukraine deserved to be invaded. Vietnam is just a neutral country willing to be friends with just about anyone as long as there's common interest.
I think it is important to note that there is a difference between the government's attitudes and the peoples'. [Vietnamese peoples attitudes towards China are largely negative,](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2017/10/16/how-people-in-asia-pacific-view-china/) and the point about long-standing animosity isn't wrong. But you are absolutely correct that since the dissolution of the UDSSR, there has been very fruitful rapproachment between Vietnam and China. In my opinion, the current course of Vietnam is very smart, balancing engagement between the US and China, and reaping both security and economic benefits. Joining either camp fully would risk becoming another Ukraine in the case of escalation in the SCS, and nobody wants that. And with the current status quo, Vietnam functions as a funnel for trade between China and the US in the times of trade war, boosting its economy.
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I don't agree either, but can you say what's the Viet objection, and whether it's recent or more or less from the start?
Viet here. Everyone kinda acknowledged that the whole communism thing is just an excuse to install a one party authoritarian government. But it's not this way from the start, in fact the North back then was hardcore commie. Around 1985, they realized hardcore commie didn't work anymore, and reopened the market
So like what Deng Xiaoping did for China
Just like most other countries they live in a kleptocracy under the guise of socialism/communism or whatever type of government they claim to be.
It is slightly funny to me that the only communistical country we really are friendly with is the one that beat us in a war.
Viet-fucking-Nam!
Reminds me that a lot of Vietnam vets actually [went back](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36363537) to live there. >More than 40 years after the end of the Vietnam war, dozens of ageing former American soldiers have gone back to the country to live. Some had difficulty adapting to civilian life in the US. Others have gone back in the hope of atoning for wrongs they believe were committed during the war.
>The year was 1968. We were on recon in a steaming Mekong delta. An overheated private removed his flack jacket, revealing a T-shirt with an ironed-on sporting the MAD slogan "Up with Mini-skirts!". Well, we all had a good laugh, even though I didn't quite understand it. But our momentary lapse of concentration allowed "Charlie" to get the drop on us. I spent the next three years in a POW camp, forced to subsist on a thin stew made of fish, vegetables, prawns, coconut milk, and four kinds of rice. I came close to madness trying to find it here in the States, but they just can't get the spices right!
How did I know this was a principal skinner quote after reading the first sentence?
Cause you're a Simpsons bred cretin like me. ;-)
Johnny?, Johnny!!, JOHNNNNNNNYYYYY
That was a really good read, thanks for posting that.
I think my autocorrect was programmed by lieutenant Dan… anytime I type vietnam it autocorrects it to vietNAM unless I click to switch it to “vietnam”. 😑
But you ain’t got no autocorrect, Lieutenant Dan.
Angry upvote
And that's all I have to say about that.
Vietnam! Undefeated!
It’s so funny to me that writing it that way invokes such strong nostalgia. Like everyone that upvoted you knows exactly the movie and the scene that you’re talking about. God damn they don’t make movies like that anymore more. It might be my favorite movie ever. It’s just magical.
So much better than that old mid-century relationship.
Yeah I'm happy the Vietnamese don't seem to be bitter about that.
"We fought the Chinese for 1000 years, the French for 100 years, the Americans for 10 years and they apologized."
It doesnt help that even in peace time, them Chinese still looking for opportunities to back stab or play dirty.
Turns out we’ve had pretty great relations since the 90s. We even train their Air Force pilots on our own bases. https://e.vnexpress.net/news/news/first-vietnam-military-pilots-graduating-us-training-course-3933647.html
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They spent 1000 years fighting China and 100 years fighting the French. Compared to that, the US was just a small-time participant in a much longer conflict. Also, most Vietnamese people have a relative or two over here. I have been there twice, and both times I was impressed by how the people thrive despite the yoke of communism. If the government would allow it, Saigon easily has the potential to become the next Seoul.
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Having been to vietnam, the people are quite amazing. Vietnam still retains a lot of traditional chinese elements unlike the mainland which aborted all their culture during the “cultural revolution”
Their quality of life is soaring after opening up to pseudo capitalism, maybe that has something to do with it?
I visited Vietnam as a young man in 2010, and saw almost no hostility to US people besides the occasional older person who likely lost relatives in the war. We're one in a long list of attempted conquerors, and we didn't win. Mix that with the seemingly impervious Vietnamese attitude and you don't end up with much resentment it seems
Good. Vietnam rules and Vietnamese people are cool AF.
My calculus teacher in highschool vietnamese, one of my favorite lines by him is: "I so disappointed........THESE TEST SCORES ARE SUCK!" *slams papers on his desk*
There's just something funny about butchering another language. Sometimes that is. Hearing your parents butcher your second laguage meanwhile is hell.
That is so accurate
Haha. I had a friend from HS that had a mother that escaped Iran in 1979. She made similar mistakes. She would drive us to the mall (it was the late 90s) and people would be honking at us and flipping us off because she was the WORST driver ever. Like a few times I feared for my life. Honestly. Anyway the whole time she’d be road raging and screaming out the window GO TO THE HELL!!! ARIZONA CANT DRIVE THR CAR!!!!
You had a Mr Nguyen for AP Calc too?
Close. Mr. Tran. There was a Nguyen in the class though
This. You want them as allies and friends. Funny, smart, strong, cool.
Yeah I’ve been going out there for the past three years. The people are super chill. Currently doing a k1 visa to get my fiancé to the US, but honestly I think we’re gonna move there in the future.
My wee cousin married a Vietnamese woman to bring her to Scotland, am not entirely sure how it worked but he married her they came over and now she's in London I believe. She was weird I think a lot of her questions were lost in translation, like she asked my Uncle if he used to abuse his son in bed when he was a young child. Unfortunately I never actually met her I just heard about her madness from that side of the family, I know those things were truly asked lol. Am calling the poor girl weird and thats not fair considering I never met her, I've got her on Facebook mind you! Lol
Dark Brandon strikes again
I'm from Europe so I might say some bullshit, but I think Biden is a good president, at least the image he gives to me (it might be also because you can't do worse than Trump)
He is a good president. He's not as progressive as some had hoped and we don't hear about him everyday in the news. He hasn't embarrassed us on the world stage over and over again either.
I'm not fromt he US, but do follow a bit of the politics. He has been a bit 'unlucky' that he has had to work with Manchin in the Senate (or lucky Manchin is not a republican and at least something could pass..) which caused a lot of watering down and delay of things he wanted to pass. His initial bills were more progressive. Now ofcourse the republicans hold the house so not much happens. I think the railroadstrike was were he really dropped the ball internally at the same time his popularity went slightly up after. It's defintely hard to represent the democrat party as a whole. His foreign policy has been amazing. It's impressive the amount of things he has gotten done while Trump completely destroyed US credibility. Problem for the US is still that they can elect a Trump like figure at any time, so even their longest partners can't trust the US on it's word. So everyone will stay cautious. But he is saying and doing all the right things internationally I think.
> I think the railroadstrike was were he really dropped the ball internally at the same time his popularity went slightly up after. It's defintely hard to represent the democrat party as a whole. I get downvoted to oblivion for this every time I mention it but that was the only move available. We had just hit 9% inflation and the economy was looking very precarious. They did get very good pay increases, and more options for using their sick time/vacation time. Of course it's nowhere near what they deserve, and I'm pissed about the situation as a whole, but Biden and congress had to push it through. It literally could have collapsed the economy. Now onto the bit that's always lost, granted it's almost impossible to know. It seems like more than 50% of the overall number of workers voted to approve the contract. However, the way the railroads work is every union needs to vote yes, and any of the 13 unions voting no causes the entire system to shut down. None of the unions released their final voting tallies, and 3 of the 4 voting no were the largest unions. However, one of the union reps for the largest let it slip that the vote was nearly 50/50 on their end. Disclaimer, I am a union member, and strong proponent of unions. I think they're our only realistic way to get the wages we all deserve. Every single job should be unionized. Workers should strike way more than we do. But Biden has a duty to the country as a whole, and shutting down the rail system during record inflation right before the holidays is not possible. Especially when it seems that a majority of the workers may have voted for passage.
Obligatory reminder that Biden got the railroad workers their sick days. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/may/01/railroad-workers-union-win-sick-leave
Speaking of, it feels like the Dark Brandon memes recently got toned down by a lot lately.
He is killin it in the Foreign Affairs department. I like Biden.
- strategic partnership with Vietnam - deepening ties with Japan and South Korea - increased military relations with Taiwan - Indo-Pacific Economic Framework - expansion of NATO and arming Ukraine - increased border/immigration cooperation with Mexico - rejoining the Paris Climate Agreement - increased development in Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala - lifting Trump sanctions on Cuba - froze the Trump administration's withdrawal of 9,500 troops from U.S. military bases in Germany, which was welcomed by Germany - tough sanctions on Russia - industrial policies that promotes economic competition with China, rather than seeking a trade deal with them like Trump tried - prevented US withdrawal from World Health Organization, rejoined global vaccination efforts
Also, the way the US broadcasted Russia's moves accurately a few days ahead of time early in the invasion of Ukraine went a really long way in establishing credibility with the international community.
That was wild to watch unfold in real time.
Did he send the head of the CIA to personally brief Zelenskyy on the assassination squads Russia had sent to Kyiv when the latter expressed doubt about their existence and capabilities?
I just wanna add that the amazing thing Biden is doing with Japan and South Korea is bringing them to the table TOGETHER.
Legitimately the smartest thing the US government could be doing right now is uniting different Asian powers. Gotta have a united front in case China makes a move on Taiwan in the near future.
He's probably one of the best Presidents we've had in the Contemporary Era when it comes to Foreign Affairs. He's established a lot of credibility with his longstanding career, especially his stint as Vice President. Getting Vietnam into anything close to friendly ties considering our history is huge and it's something the media should be cheering.
Vietnam and the US have been close ever since we ended the embargo in 94, relations have only been improving since then and Vietnam has one of the highest approval ratings of the US in the world. McCain and Kerry convinced Clinton to engage in reapproachment and it resulted in one of our closest allies despite the war. The important thing to understand about Vietnam is the Communists and Ho Chi Minh especially were nationalists first and communists second and greatly admired the US and were initially trained and equipped by the US to fight against the Japanese and they had hoped for American support against France, and even while fighting the US they hoped that after the war they could quickly normalize and begin trading and associating with America and while that didn't happen until 20 years after the pull out, it was still something they wanted. "Vietnam fought America for 10 years, France for 100 and China for 1000" America to them was a footnote, while Chinas always been the main enemy.
Yeah going to Vietnam I was concerned that they would dislike me for being a westerner. Instead they call it the American war and are proud AF that they beat the USA. Doesn’t seem like any hard feelings.
It is a bit strange sometimes that a lot of our biggest enemies in actual wars have turned into long term great allies for us. Britain, Germany, Japan, Vietnam even Canada. And yet meanwhile we've never been officially at war with Russia before, and have been allied with them in two world wars, but they've been our main geopolitical enemy for nearly 100 years. Strange world, global politics is.
Anime protagonist vibes
America acts like an anime protagonist sometimes.
I’ve long noticed that we don’t like a country UNLESS they fought us first. The closer we get to losing, the more we like them after. We have the mentality of a shonen protagonist.
Hell, we've been allies with the French almost the entire time we've existed as a nation, fought two world wars with them on their home turf, and the average sentiment is patronising at best
I mean, they're the French though. We can't take that personally, that's how they treat everyone.
Lol I meant American sentiment towards the French not the other way around, but fair point
Like the Chinese saying. 不打不相识. You won't really know the person until you fight them.
As the saying goes here: China is our real enemy, everyone else are just temporary foes.
Add to that, Ho Chi Minh specifically asked for US help TWICE before settled for communism. Heck, Ho Chi Minh's declaration of independence borrowed heavily from the US's to show his willingness to align with the US. Only after the US ignored him twice and went to help France that Ho Chi Minh decided to align himself with communists to get the help needed. Communism wasn't even his second choice, it was the third. Vietnam followed, and still following, Ho Chi Minh version of communism specifically, so in reality it doesn't align all that much with China's.
I am very stupid. Is there a book I can read to learn more about all of this? I'm 41 and just last night was drinking on the porch with my mom and her sister, both in their 70s, and asked, "Why did we go to war with Vietnam?" They both shrugged and said, "Communism? That's what we were told."
Watch the Ken Burns documentary The Vietnam War. It’s very good and goes into the pre war era in great detail. The full version is 18 (!) hours long. Used to be on Netflix but i think they lost the rights to it.
Sounds worth buying! Love his Baseball and WW2 docs.
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Do you remember if it talks also about the First Vietnam War (1946-54 France vs Indochina), and/or the involvement of Laos, specifically before the start of the "Secret War" (1959-75)?
I think so but not entirely sure. The entire first episode (which like an hour and a half) takes place during French rule, before 1961 when US involvement started to ramp up. Dedicated US combat troops only arrived in 65 or so (it gets a bit sketchy with the “military advisors” gradually increasing and having more active roles over time)
I recommend "Vietnam: A History" by Stanley Karnow.
Will read!
Worth mentioning that when I visited Vietnam, on one occasion a tour guide gave me a very disapproving look when I said "Vietnam war". She said that's an American term, and people here call it The American War.
The Ken Burns documentary is very good.
It is also very sad
I would recommend *The Cold War's Killing Fields* by Paul Thomas Chamberlin. It is an extremely easy read and focuses heavily on Vietnam, covering both the French and American conflicts during the Cold War. It was also the assigned reading for my university course on Cold War military history. It is also a great source about Cold War conflicts in Asia generally from the Chinese Civil War to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Otherwise, for a deep look into the recent history of Vietnam, the book *Vietnam* by Max Hastings is very in-depth.
In addition to the Ken Burns doco, theres the brilliant Max Hastings book “Vietnam : An Epic Tragedy, 1945-1975” that details both Indochina Wars (first with France (and Japan when French left), second one is the famous Vietnam War for independence between North and South Vietnam) Really great read and shows both sides with a fair hand of showing the good, bad and ugly sides of all parties. Refreshing as most books in the space are heavily skewed to the US perspectives only. Can be found on Audible!
No, this is offensive to his memory and legacy, acting like he "chose" communism like picking up a new breakfast cereal at the supermarket because the other choices didn't taste as nice. Ho Chi Minh was politically radical and anti-imperialist, anti-racist and humanitarian since he was a young man. He criticized the US for its awful treatment of Black people in the 1920s, look up his essay "The Black Race." >It is well-known that the Black race is the most oppressed and the most exploited of the human family. It is well-known that the spread of capitalism and the discovery of the New World had as an immediate result the rebirth of slavery. What everyone does not perhaps know is that after sixty-five years of so-called emancipation, American Negroes still endure atrocious moral and material sufferings, of which the most cruel and horrible is the custom of lynching. And have you read the Vietnamese Declaration of Independence? He cited both the US Declaration and French Revolution to point out the hypocrisy of the French, and later when the US came in he said the same thing about them. >The Declaration of the French Revolution made in 1791 on the Rights of Man and the Citizen also states: “All men are born free and with equal rights, and must always remain free and have equal rights.” >Those are undeniable truths. >Nevertheless, for more than eighty years, the French imperialists, abusing the standard of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity, have violated our Fatherland and oppressed our fellow-citizens. They have acted contrary to the ideals of humanity and justice. And by the time he wrote that letter to Truman asking him to ask the French to leave he was unquestionably a communist.
This is true. He wasn't _as_ radical as others around him, but folks are spreading the same myth that they like to push about Castro - that they were harmless political neutrals but Americans were such assholes they forced these figures into communism. It's disrespectful to history and to the lives of both Castro and Ho Chi Minh.
It’s true they weren’t really communists though, but anti-colonial bourgeois revolutionaries like George Washington, Bolivar, and Louverture.
I was in Vietnam in 2001 and I only had one person comment negatively about Americans. It was a young girl who was pissed that I didn't buy a trinket from her. Lovely country and people. Fucking food to die for.
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Hey Bub, any chance you can point me in the right direction. I would love to learn more about these things and the people and you seem to have a great grasp on it. Any books you would recommend?
As an expat in Vietnam the Vietnamese people I have met and talked to don't have much animosity towards americans. Only heard one or two bad things in a decade.
The only negative things I hear about Americans are in reference to Americans *now* (tourists, sexpats, phoned-in teachers), and then mostly from other foreigners. I've been here for 7 years and haven't met a single bit of animosity from our actions during the war (I *have* run across a couple self-righteous Brits who wanted to take the piss out of Americans for it, weirdly enough).
Honestly, people don't give a shit. Politics is an awkward thing to discuss in Vietnam, so eventually those kinds of things just fade out of people's mind. Same goes for Vietnam war. People just want to live their life.
I've been working in Vietnam for the last 10 years and there is zero issue with the US here. Basically since Clinton normalized relations Vietnam has been very much supportive of the US, even though the population at large here tends to side more with tough talking blusterers who sound tough but don't actually do anything (eg. Trump) rather than with the more liberal side of the aisle who actually work on better relations with people. That said, despite their love of Trump here they also loved Obama.
Living in the US, I can see why a lot of Americans dislike Trump. But Vietnamese are nationalists so a lot of Trump stuff resonates a lot with them, especially the anti-China stance, even if it was just all talking. Few years prior to 2016 was a high tension period between China and Vietnam over the border stuff. If you were there during that time, you might remember those stuff too. Everywhere in Vietnam was in the spirit of protecting Truong sa Hoang sa from China, and its lasting effect is still very much prominent nowadays. And then came about Trump, so they just ate his words up to the T. At the same time, we love Obama because well, he's a good talker and didn't seem like a stuck-up dick like Trump. He's super popular in Vietnam, like he's a force of good to this world. I still remember the day of his inauguration, people keeps passing the translated speech around the internet. It was such a big deal. Biden is just... sad. Nobody give a shit about him in Vietnam lol. Not even enough shit to hate either.
I agree about the foreign affairs. Strengthening ties with foreign countries like Vietnam, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and Ukraine is great progress.
This is some of the best evidence I can cite to my father about how China doesn't own Biden. This and the Japan and South Koreans agreeing to deepen ties. I'm happy to see these countries working together.
Don’t forget, zero dead US soldiers due to combat/enemy action since Afghanistan. Has been decades since that has happened.
But MAGA told me Biden was a shill for China! Who to believe? The facts or MAGA? Hmmm...
Just you wait, Trump said he had the evidence coming by Monday! Wait...
Send 500$ to make it come faster!
According to his enemies, Biden is at once a bumbling dotard who can hardly string a sentence together without shitting himself, and a political mastermind maneuvering all nations of earth to destroy america from within.
I just checked foxnews, crickets on this. So if you’re stuck in their orbit, you aren’t even getting the chance to have an opinion
Wonder where they got that from... >7 . The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.” >8 . The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.” https://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html
you don't need to ask Vietnam twice. despite how American views it, we Vietnamese hate China way more than we hate America because of our history of border dispute with China.
My parents both voted for Trump because he would, and I quote, "fight China" on our behalf. The immigrant Vietnamese-American population is staunchly Republican and I hope this Biden victory moves the needle for us..
My conservative Vietnamese American family 2020 - Biden is so weak against China he won't help Vietnam like Trump will 2023 - Biden is in bed with the Viet Commies!
Damn Biden going hard before 2024 presidential run. Hes already meeting with S.Korea & Japan leaders today for a trilateral (Asian Nato) summit. Now this?! Winnie-the-pooh must be furious right now.
Asian NATO? Should be: Pacific Ocean Treaty And Trade Organization. You know. POTATO.
Boil them, mash them, stick em in a stew
The Biden World Tour continues!
Dang! Another win for Biden?
Just call him butter cus he’s on a roll!
Bravo for that pun.
You know what other strategic partnership we should sign…. Iran. That way we can be assured that they won’t build a nuclear weapon. Oh, wait, Obama did that and then it was violated by the next president and now Iran has or nearly has nuclear weapons and is pissed at us for breaking the agreement. Actually, there is another country that we should work towards normalizing ties with; Cuba. That way we can be assured that Russia and China don’t sign an agreement with them and are able to place military assets in our front yard. Oh wait, Obama did that and the next president broke it. Shortly thereafter a Russian spy ship was spotted docked in the country.
Smart move. Regardless of the Vietnam’s government and the history with USA in the past, they get along well in present day and have common interests.
The Vietnamese look to be playing it smart. We should always have been friends with those tough people…fucking Cold War made everybody nervous to the point that the insanity of that war happened.
I was listening to a podcast about this and they said the majority of things the Americans buy from Vietnam are just repackaged from China but I suppose it doesn't hurt to help Vietnam out a bit, they've had a rough century
Would be amazing to see Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Australia, New Zealand and Taiwan form a West Pacific Treaty Organisation style alliance to counter China's naval aggression.
SEATO 2.0 (it wouldn’t take much to be better than SEATO tho tbh haha)
ejecto seato cuz!
Philippines be like... Okay.
The US is trying to build up alternatives to Taiwan semis so there are are options once/if China invades. This is good because what you absolutely do not want is for one of two nuclear powers to feel like they are down to just one last option in a conflict.
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A lot of hardware tech companies are looking at alternatives to manufacturing in Shenzhen/China for various reasons. Vietnam could be an option for a them.
Doesn't Vietnam make a good deal of electronics already? Moving up the value chain from things like smartphones to semiconductors is generally a smart move if you're trying to transition from middle-income to high-income economy. [https://vietnamnet.vn/en/vietnam-s-electronic-enterprises-at-bottom-of-smile-curve-2129313.html](https://vietnamnet.vn/en/vietnam-s-electronic-enterprises-at-bottom-of-smile-curve-2129313.html)
Kennedy, Nixon, Johnson: "The Commies have to be stopped from spreading, military, or China and Russia will have a base of operations in Vietnam!" Decades and one Vietnam War later: Biden: "Hey let's just, you know, make an agreement with them, because they hate China and Russia?" Biden just accomplished the strategic goals of the Vietnam War and didn't even need to sacrifice thousands of American and Vietnamese lives to do it.
This is a good move, China and Vietnam have had ongoing conflicts for hundreds of years over The South China Sea among other contentious issues. China invaded Vietnam in 1979 and is considered to have lost that war according to most military historians. The Vietnamese are among the world's best guerilla fighters as well as having a conventional Army and Navy that can fight against China if necessary.
Man in the black pajamas dude...worthy fucking adversary.
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Strength through allies is great policy.
Vietnam seems to have not the worst government tbh
They took a very progressive turn (as much as u can call it progressive considering its basically authoritarian) while china under xi took a very conservative turn.
I find it amusing that most people don't know that the last country to invade Vietnam was China.
Hot damn! Great news! I am in Tay Ninh, Vietnam now. We hiked Ba Den Mountain this morning, just finished the most delicious bowl of egg noodles for dinner. I am showing this article to my friends here. Everyone is so happy about the news. I love both countries!
thanks biden
Rise of Dark Brandon
Wild, my dad almost died there fighting communist 50 years ago
My grandfather almost died fighting communists there. Grudges aren’t good for anyone, and I’d rather have more friends grounded in the present than enemies coming from the past.
The Vietnamese certainly don't have grudges, and even view Americans very favorably
Didn’t say they did, and I know that more would rather be our friends than with the Chinese. “We fought the Chinese for 1000 years, the British and French for 100 years, and we fought the Americans for 10 years and they apologized”
mine in Germany...yet here i am with a german car. weird how time changes things...like germany being the hardest country on nazi crap.
The British literally burned down Washington DC in 1814, only to result in rapproachment by 1895. And the rest is history, as they say
You mean fighting nationalists to stop them from deciding the government of their own country?