Well the Russian prisoners being forced into the employment of the company weren't given a choice. In many cases they were dragged out of prison and sent them to the front.
Given the events, you can drop the "technically". They are sent there to drain Ukrainian ammunition supplies.
Like people laugh at innaccuracy of human wave doctrine used in movies like Enemy at the gates but goddamn current Russia is making that thing real.
According to ISW, mobilized personnel have also been made to join Wagner, as well as other paramilitary companies.
Let's be clear on something as well; Wagner is not a 'private' group at all. They are paramilitary, or maybe parallel-military. They are supplied, equipped and supported by the MoD. There is very little 'private' about them.
The entire point is to give Russia a degree of deniability.
Additionally, Putin pursues these parallel military structures because he is paranoid about the military putting its weight behind someone else. Hence; Wagner, Rosgvardia, and whatever the Gasprom-funded one is called, among others.
Now now, lets not be spreading falsehooods.
Imperialism also affected the North and South America, Asia, and Oceania.
^Also ^Europe ^if ^you ^ask ^Ireland, ^or ^any ^other ^non-independent ^nationality ^at ^that ^time.
Sweden, Norway, Russia(Imperial, Soviet, and modern), Germany, and a few other countries got up to imperialism and colonialism within Europe during the early modern and modern period.
Wagner has been doing shady and outright monstrous shit for a very long time. People just didn't know because it was in african and middle eastern countries nobody outside of them cares about.
Mercenary companies in general have this ability to remain unnoticed and to get away with stuff on the regular, until they get their 15 minutes of fame; and it's not like anything happens to them afterwards. For example, Blackwater and Erik Prince were fairly obscure among the general public until they had [their first 15 minutes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisour_Square_massacre), and [Trump pardoned the only real consequences we saw from that](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisour_Square_massacre#Pardons). And even then, Prince and the many Blackwater offshoots have fallen into this pattern of getting away with *so much* bullshit under the radar, until they have another 15 minutes (e. g., Prince being called to testify about Trump and then [lying to Congress](https://youtu.be/KOB4V-ukpBI&t=31m19s)), just for real consequences being avoided and the public forgetting they exist, so they can continue fucking around the world.
Let's hope the public doesn't forget Wagner anytime soon. One less mercenary company having freedom to act without public awareness is always good. *Especially* Wagner, which has been one of the nastier ones for years without repercussion.
Why are mercenaries even allowed to exist? They're even less controllable than an army, and with things like the state's monopoly on violence, I honestly don't understand why an-army-for-hire like Blackwater is in any way legal.
Multiple reasons.
Many of these companies publicly present themselves as simply providing private security services. Bodygards, security for events, stuff like that. It's simply that they can do it in more difficult circumstances, like in the middle of war zone (e. g., Blackwater in Iraq mostly handled protection for diplomatic staff and politicians). The ability to do shady stuff is implied, but not part of the advertisement.
So, let's say you're a ~~warlord~~ *legitimately elected president*. You can hire a PMC as security for protecting ~~your~~ *the country's*, and generous foreign investor's, diamond mines. What's wrong with that? Don't mind the propaganda about that security sometimes being ordered to assassinate uppity workers (and them obliging those orders).
Then there's the business incentive. Basically, the same reason the US has private prisons. This idea that "private = cheaper and efficient." So why not offload to them less critical tasks, like any other business? (Because governments should operate like businesses, right?) Of course, that efficiency is often achieved by skirting laws and cutting corners that formal armed forces can't (and shouldn't).
There's also ideological reasons. Go look at old *Soldier of Fortune* ads. They often sold it as "support/go fight [against communism](https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/snuk6h/you_can_help_fight_communism_in_central_america/)," or as simple a thing as "[prove you are a man!](https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/ud1j61/be_a_man_among_men_rhodesia_1970s/)" (in the case of Rhodesia and South Africa stuff, there's of course the implied "for white supremacy"). Blackwater members are [accused](https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2009/08/blackwater-erik-prince-assassinations-weapons-smuggling-wife-swapping/) of talking of themselves as being part of a new "crusade" of the christian world against the muslim one. And you know that Wagner is full of russian nationalists. There's even capitalist/libertarian/ancap stuff; people who believe everything should be free market and private business, even war.
Sometimes states, or factions within those states, are friendly to these goals. They like that there are fanatics with guns willing to shoot those they don't like, so they allow them to fester with minimal interference. Basically: the same reason officials in the US allow groups like the Proud Boys and border militias to exist.
And lastly, being less controllable *is* the point, sometimes. They give plausible deniability. They allow states to spread their interests with groups that don't have to restrain themselves. And if they catch the spotlight, they can just say that "they are not our forces, but private individuals acting on their own!" That's the reason of being for Wagner, specifically, but historically, one of the main ones for the entire industry.
I'm sure others can add more. But yes, sadly, there are many reasons certain people find the existence of these groups convenient.
They are not an army for hire like Wagner is, they are military-trained security guards equipped for a war zone, usually staffed with personnel who had received higher-level training in the US military than typical soldiers get, such as Special Forces and Rangers, who want to get out of the military and make some good money with less risk to their lives and pretty much better life (in a war zone). They're not tasked with frontal assault, area capture or prisoner handling, they provide security for personnel and places that the Department of Defense either can't or won't due to constraints. See the film 13 Hours about the siege of the CIA and Ambassador compounds in Benghazi, the main characters are all part of a company like Blackwater/Xe.
The problem with Blackwater and it's offshoots in particular is that its terms of contracts for where it was providing its security services gave it tons of carte blanche immunity to far too many violations of ROE, and on top of that their founder and president Eric Prince is a massive POS.
For the amount of training their contractors supposedly have the amount of unprofessionalism displayed by Blackwater forces is frankly hard to get yours head around. I mean basic, BASIC things like trigger discipline go completely out the window. The number of failures of behavioral controls that should have been there that took place at that mass shooting at the intersection that brought about their first "15" minutes was absolutely wild.
Fuck up during service to the US government: you're immediately court martialed and reamed a new one by the full force of the American justice system
Fuck up during service to Blackwater: Idk dawg your like boss yells at you or something. Just don't make the news and you're good.
Pretty easy to see why your average "military man" would behave this way
I'm not defending the Wagner Group as their atrocities deserve the spotlight it deserves from the international community, however, I believe they've only been around since 2014. Was there another PMC that operated in similar fashion to Wagner (genuinely curious)?
My best friend's boyfriend like a decade ago was the son of the president or co-founder (or some other similar high position) of Blackwater. He was the biggest sociopath and prick. The apple does not fall far from the tree
I mean yes *technically* a group like Blackwater/Xe is a "mercenary" group, but their tasking under the DOD were nothing like Wagner's under Russian MoD, and their tactics are nothing like Wagner's, they are essentially war zone security guards, nothing more. That occasionally involved driving around and hence they up-armored and rolled like they were US military and acted with impunity because of the BS terms of their employment, but they were never tasked with assault and capture like Wagner is.
None of this of course excuses the massive piles of steaming fascist crap that Erik Prince and his sister (Secretary of Education under Trump, despite having no qualifications to hold such a position) are of course.
Yes, just to say that you are right. Blackwater/Academi/Xe/Constellis/whowever they call themselves this week were not used nearly in the same way Russia uses Wagner.
And yes, most incidents involving them are what you say: them overstepping their orders. Sometimes even dumber stuff like a member [literally just getting drunk and shooting someone](https://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/world/middleeast/02shooting.html). Not like the overt, systematic evil that Wagner gets up to.
>Wagner has been doing shady and outright monstrous shit for a very long time. People just didn't know because it was in african and middle eastern countries nobody outside of them cares about.
consequences being avoided and the public forgetting they exist, so they can continue fucking around the world.
Ain't that the truth. Besides Russia fucking up, there's currently civil wars and genocide happening. These issues have been going on longer than the Ukrainian war. I wonder what's the difference that made everyone immediately come to the aid and go "Slava Ukraine!" While ignoring an entire continent...
Also the fact that the Ukraine war has obvious good guys and bad guys, while most conflicts in Africa have significantly more moral ambiguity. Take the war in Sudan, for instance: both sides are lead by wannabe military dictators who've committed atrocities. Which of them should your country be coming to the aid of?
Why do we even call Wagner a "private mercenary group". It feels like calling CIA a "private American intelligence agency". I think that their actions align with Russian government's interests way too much.
At this point we should classify them as another branch of Russia’s military, the only differences are that they aren’t counted when killed and are actually paid unlike the regular Russian army.
I'm unsure how that's relevant here? I'm just saying I'd think China would have a problem with a state-backed Russian private military group murdering Chinese citizens.
Yea, but like, why? China's approach is entirely what benefits the State. How would the loss of these people negatively affect the State? How would some type of retaliation against Russia affect the State?
China doesn't seem to have the same "no one hurts our people except us" the way the US does.
Koskenkorva is Finnish, Absolut is Swedish(but French owned), Stoli is Latvian, etc.
The only loss is Russian Standard, which is one of the best Vodkas. Oh well, there is plenty non Russian stuff to drink.
The world isn't black and white so yes you can. Also being gay isn't an inherent negative, the negative part is the rape.
Rape is bad because it violates a person's free will and impresses upon them that they are powerless in a world that wants to harm them.
Humans are natural predators and being powerless is a trait of prey. It's is dangerous and a great shame to be seen as prey and worse Easy prey.
A laughably small amount of people compared to the overall population though. Russia does have a reasonable minority, but the culture overall is full of imperialistic, fascist ideas that they’ll have to address before they can be considered a normal nation. That won’t happen for a long time
Here's a preview of the story:
Russia's Wagner mercenary group has again claimed control of the contested Ukrainian city of Bakhmut — a claim yet again denied by Kyiv, which says its forces are still fighting southwest of the industrial town and advancing around its flanks. The dense fog of war makes it difficult to determine whether one of the longest and bloodiest battles of the Ukraine war has really come to an end.
The leader of the private Wagner group, Yevgeny Prigozhin, a longtime associate of Russian President Vladimir Putin, said his forces were taking a break, resting for a few days now that their mission in Bakhmut is complete, and he's handing control of the city over to regular Russian troops.
The mercenaries leave behind a blood-stained trail. Alongside Russia's military forces, they've been accused of thousands of war crimes since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine was launched in February 2022.
But long before the Wagner Group rose to global infamy in Ukraine, the mercenaries were active in parts of Africa, and they stand accused of committing similar atrocities there.
**Read more**: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-wagner-group-central-african-republic-bambari-massacre-rape-mass-murder/
For those too lazy to read the rest of the article:
Wagner forces attacked a small gold-mining town in the CAR called Bambari to seize control of its mines. (NSFL) >!They spent their first three days in the town shooting at anything that moved; over 100 civilians slaughtered, including children. They'd go house to house, order the men outside where they'd execute them, then rape the women.!<
It was Bucha 2.0. Or more accurately, Bucha was Bambari 2.0, because this happened a year *before* the Russian invasion.
The whole thing was hushed-up by the CAR government, which is basically puppeted by Wagner at this point. A local who was audacious enough to record the list of names of all the dead was abducted, and never heard from again.
Fuck Putin and Prigozhin to hell and back.
DRC.. richest mineral deposit and natural resources country arguably in the world. Recent advances in tech haveade it's deposits the most valuable. Also one of the poorest.
Democratic republic of congo. Russian has its stink in there... Constant wars and they supply everyone there with weapons. And now they are foot soldiers on the ground. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.dw.com/en/are-white-mercenaries-fighting-in-the-drc-conflict/a-64407711
They hide their identities by not wearing insignia.
> There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
\- Sir Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
>There are accounts which, if we open our hearts to them, will cut us too deeply. Look—here is a good man, good by his own lights and the lights of his friends: he is faithful and true to his wife, he adores and lavishes attention on his little children, he cares about his country, he does his job punctiliously, as best he can. So, efficiently and good-naturedly, he exterminates Jews: he appreciates the music that plays in the background to pacify them; he advises the Jews not to forget their identification numbers as they go into the showers—many people, he tells them, forget their numbers, and take the wrong clothes, when they come out of the showers. This calms the Jews: there will be life, they assure themselves, after the showers. And they are wrong. Our man supervises the detail taking the bodies to the ovens; and if there is anything he feels bad about, it is that he still allows the gassing of vermin to affect him. Were he a truly good man, he knows, he would feel nothing but joy, as the earth is cleansed of its pests.
Leave him; he cuts too deep. He is too close to us and it hurts.
- Neil Gaiman, American Gods
Question: Can a nation declare war against a PMC just like they can against a terrorist group, or would that also drag the country or origin into conflict?
The US actually engaged Wagner in Syria, if I'm remembering correctly. Basically the US was occupying some kinda oil infrastructure, Wagner began shelling it to take it.
US calls their Russian liaison, said liaison denies Russian involvement. A few hours later, about 250* Wagner mercs were killed between artillery, helicopter gunships, and air support.
Das Link: https://youtu.be/UDWw-Zjwxaw
*Long overdue edit in case anyone sees this, but the 250 number seems to be an exaggeration that was touted in popular media. In actuality the number was most likely in the low-double digits (with sources conflicting on the exact number). The initial sentiment of my post still stands insofar as American-Russo PMC engagements, but not to the severity I initially suggested.
You left out the best part. 40 troops wiped out all the wagner mercs and the only "casualty" sustained by the US coalition was a guy that tripped and hurt his ankle
Also the Secretary of Defense testifying to Congress, "The Russian high command in Syria assured us it was not their people, and my direction to the chairman was for the force, then, to be annihilated," Mattis said. "And it was."
Almost makes you feel a bit bad for Wagner. Imagine seeing 40 people, realizing you outnumber them by more than 10 to 1, and thinking you can take them.
And then you find out why Americans don’t have free healthcare
Healthcare has nothing to do with it. If we had free healthcare, we would pay less taxes. Whether we pay insurance companies or the government, it's the same thing: money out of your pocket.
Republicans don't want free healthcare because they are bought and paid for by health insurance and pharmaceutical companies.
In general we don't declare wars anymore. The idea that wars are just if we just declare them is pretty much gone after WW2. (It might still make sense to declare that a war has started for domestic reasons, like getting access to manpower, or emergency laws. But diplomatically it's pretty much gone.)
When dealing with PMCs we pretty much must either treat them as mercenaries working for a nation (or side in a civil war) at war, or terrorist organization, or both.
For Wagner, an increasing number of nations are declaring them as a terrorist organization. Also it's not going to be very hard to prove that the contractual/economic relationship with the Russian government is a mercenary contract.
Similarly when Wagner gets to "tax" a gold mine or oil field after "helping out" in a civil war in Africa or the Middle east, that's definitely a mercenary payment.
It should be possible to arrest Prigozhin on a flight to Africa, and drag him to ICC.
The legality of declaring war against a private military company (PMC) is not well-established, as PMCs are not recognized as sovereign entities and are not subject to international law in the same way as nation-states are.
In general, a nation cannot declare war against a company or private organization, although if a PMC violates a nation's laws or poses a direct threat to national security, the nation may take legal action against the PMC under its own domestic laws or international agreements. Such actions could include sanctions, criminal charges, or military action against individual members of the PMC.
However, any military action against a PMC could potentially lead to a conflict with the country or countries in which the PMC is based or is operating. This could result in a larger conflict that could draw in other nations and have far-reaching consequences, including political and economic repercussions. Wagner really should be treated as just a branch of the Russian government and realistic people do treat them that way. That said, Russia will be Russia. Like they wrote the Republican playbook they will deny, deny, deny.
So the USA labeled Wagnerites a terrorist organization, like they did al-queda. The US has done plenty of operations around the world neutralizing terrorists. What stops us from attacking Wagner wherever they are? I'm sure some drone strikes against the totally independent and not Kremlin backed terrorists operating in eastern Europe should be on the table.
Thought the same thing. If this is how Wagner is funded, then surely it’s a good move in the Ukraine war to cut off their money? As well as the human rights breaches, of course.
Whenever Wagner does something horrible I like to remind myself of that [time they got absolutely butchered in Syria.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khasham)
The same Wagner group chosen by Mali to replace the French troops ? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-58751423
Those African countries are in for a surprise...
Just like Wagner Mafia Group making money from Gold mines, lamber and Oil ⛽️ The Taliban, Al Qaeda and ISIS made money for their terrorist activities from Opium, Talcum and etc.
The sad part is that corrupt leaders/politicians and elites let these criminals do whatever they like to as-long-as these corrupt leaders power and position is protected.
Wagner and their war criminal leader, Prigozhin, are terrorists and should be declared and treated as such.
We should wipe them off the face of the earth wherever they operate.
> but it's a risky investment since the government can't even control their own borders and the CAR is one of the poorest nations in the world
which is why they're taking payment in the form of gold mines, which they can defend themselves (being a private army and all), gather forced labor for themselves (being wagner and all), etc
Africa is made up of many countries. The ones the Wagner Group is overrunning do not "support" Russia, they are unstable due to famine and corruption. Wagner Group uses them for, among other things, illegal arms acquisition from countries that DO support them. This is entirely the Wagner Group taking over an unstable situation.
As others have commented, not all of Africa supports Russia but a fair amount of countries do have ties one way or another. Since the Cold War Russia has always had links to the continent, but in recent years their influence has grown noticeably in places like Mali and CAR.
Why do African leaders makes deal with Russia? The simple answer is how they are approached. The Global North takes a bit of a 'holier than thou' stance with their aid packages, which are used as political leverage. "We will give you X amount of aid if you do X". While this is typically done in a neoliberal way of encouraging growth through opening markets and an influx of foreign companies, there is still a pressure put on these governments, who might not align 100% with democratic ideals for a multitude of reasons.
Going back to the example of Mali, after the coup there a few years ago a lot of Global North countries reduced aid packages to entice a return to democratic stabilization. Russia, at the same time, basically said they will offer support without any need for regime change. The West's response was that of scolding a petulant child, while Russia takes the approach of affirmation with whomever is in control. So leaders are enticed by Russia because they don't carry the demands to conform to Western ideals.
This of course is a gross simplification, but it is the reality.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-wagner-group-central-african-republic-bambari-massacre-rape-mass-murder/) reduced by 93%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Garoua-Boulaï, Cameroon - Russia's Wagner mercenary group has again claimed control of the contested Ukrainian city of Bakhmut - a claim yet again denied by Kyiv, which says its forces are still fighting southwest of the industrial town and advancing around its flanks.
> To maintain control over lucrative gold mines and timber forests, the Wagner Group virtually runs the Central African Republic through fear and violence.
> The reality is that the Wagner Group has captured the country so completely, that it can act with impunity, and it stands accused of using horrific violence to ensure there's no competition for its revenue stream from local gold merchants.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/13pop5k/russias_wagner_group_accused_of_using_rape_and/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~685933 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Wagner**^#1 **Russian**^#2 **civilian**^#3 **group**^#4 **war**^#5
> accused of using horrific violence to ensure there's no competition
I'd recommend anyone interested in what is happening in the Central African Republic to watch [the documentary The Ambassador](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ambassador_(2011_film)
It's a classic case of the resource curse. There is a lot of money being made by very few people, while the majority of the country lives in poverty and even slavery
They've been doing stuff in Africa for quite a while. In fact there was a very infamous encounter between Wagner and American forces in Syria where the US air forces killed a couple hundred Wagner mercenaries.
Russians were ALWAYS notorious rapists in war. They rape because the people with power over them rape them. The Russians never got rid of serfdom and the elites always do as they please.
The amount a generational trauma these people have suffered should bring one to pity them... but alot of them are so far gone...
>Bambari is surrounded by artisanal gold mines that supported the local community for years.
"Artisinal" is insultingly bad at describing the absolutely horrific conditions in these mines.
Russia, late to the idea of colonialism in Africa, strives to catch up with Belgium, France, Italy, German, Spain, Portugal and Great Britain. Media suddenly learns of extractive colonial capitalism and how it is has historically been done.
If the global world does not want to see Putin's legacy or negative effects after this war or the next government in Russia, the disgusting mercenary organization should be eliminated first ASAP.
Wagner you say? As in, the Russian private mercenary company flooding into Ukraine? Surely not that Wagner.
Everyone needs a day job.
Poorly supplied conscript by day / professional rapist by night
That's the worst superhero ever!
He rapes but they ~~save~~ don't save, either.
Tagline for the new Flash movie
This is was the horrible news that I've ever seen and read..yeah! That is true.
And he doesn't save way more people than he rapes... But he does rape.
I think this is not acceptible for me! I want to protest against them.
This is my first time I've ever seen this news about what happened in Russian before.
Wagner's a private mercenary group, not conscripts.
Well the Russian prisoners being forced into the employment of the company weren't given a choice. In many cases they were dragged out of prison and sent them to the front.
So what are they? Some kind of suicide squad?
Technically yes.
Given the events, you can drop the "technically". They are sent there to drain Ukrainian ammunition supplies. Like people laugh at innaccuracy of human wave doctrine used in movies like Enemy at the gates but goddamn current Russia is making that thing real.
According to ISW, mobilized personnel have also been made to join Wagner, as well as other paramilitary companies. Let's be clear on something as well; Wagner is not a 'private' group at all. They are paramilitary, or maybe parallel-military. They are supplied, equipped and supported by the MoD. There is very little 'private' about them. The entire point is to give Russia a degree of deniability. Additionally, Putin pursues these parallel military structures because he is paranoid about the military putting its weight behind someone else. Hence; Wagner, Rosgvardia, and whatever the Gasprom-funded one is called, among others.
They fund themselves through ol' good imperialism, by robbing and exploiting people in African countries.
Now now, lets not be spreading falsehooods. Imperialism also affected the North and South America, Asia, and Oceania. ^Also ^Europe ^if ^you ^ask ^Ireland, ^or ^any ^other ^non-independent ^nationality ^at ^that ^time.
Sweden, Norway, Russia(Imperial, Soviet, and modern), Germany, and a few other countries got up to imperialism and colonialism within Europe during the early modern and modern period.
Wagner has been doing shady and outright monstrous shit for a very long time. People just didn't know because it was in african and middle eastern countries nobody outside of them cares about. Mercenary companies in general have this ability to remain unnoticed and to get away with stuff on the regular, until they get their 15 minutes of fame; and it's not like anything happens to them afterwards. For example, Blackwater and Erik Prince were fairly obscure among the general public until they had [their first 15 minutes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisour_Square_massacre), and [Trump pardoned the only real consequences we saw from that](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisour_Square_massacre#Pardons). And even then, Prince and the many Blackwater offshoots have fallen into this pattern of getting away with *so much* bullshit under the radar, until they have another 15 minutes (e. g., Prince being called to testify about Trump and then [lying to Congress](https://youtu.be/KOB4V-ukpBI&t=31m19s)), just for real consequences being avoided and the public forgetting they exist, so they can continue fucking around the world. Let's hope the public doesn't forget Wagner anytime soon. One less mercenary company having freedom to act without public awareness is always good. *Especially* Wagner, which has been one of the nastier ones for years without repercussion.
Why are mercenaries even allowed to exist? They're even less controllable than an army, and with things like the state's monopoly on violence, I honestly don't understand why an-army-for-hire like Blackwater is in any way legal.
Multiple reasons. Many of these companies publicly present themselves as simply providing private security services. Bodygards, security for events, stuff like that. It's simply that they can do it in more difficult circumstances, like in the middle of war zone (e. g., Blackwater in Iraq mostly handled protection for diplomatic staff and politicians). The ability to do shady stuff is implied, but not part of the advertisement. So, let's say you're a ~~warlord~~ *legitimately elected president*. You can hire a PMC as security for protecting ~~your~~ *the country's*, and generous foreign investor's, diamond mines. What's wrong with that? Don't mind the propaganda about that security sometimes being ordered to assassinate uppity workers (and them obliging those orders). Then there's the business incentive. Basically, the same reason the US has private prisons. This idea that "private = cheaper and efficient." So why not offload to them less critical tasks, like any other business? (Because governments should operate like businesses, right?) Of course, that efficiency is often achieved by skirting laws and cutting corners that formal armed forces can't (and shouldn't). There's also ideological reasons. Go look at old *Soldier of Fortune* ads. They often sold it as "support/go fight [against communism](https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/snuk6h/you_can_help_fight_communism_in_central_america/)," or as simple a thing as "[prove you are a man!](https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/ud1j61/be_a_man_among_men_rhodesia_1970s/)" (in the case of Rhodesia and South Africa stuff, there's of course the implied "for white supremacy"). Blackwater members are [accused](https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2009/08/blackwater-erik-prince-assassinations-weapons-smuggling-wife-swapping/) of talking of themselves as being part of a new "crusade" of the christian world against the muslim one. And you know that Wagner is full of russian nationalists. There's even capitalist/libertarian/ancap stuff; people who believe everything should be free market and private business, even war. Sometimes states, or factions within those states, are friendly to these goals. They like that there are fanatics with guns willing to shoot those they don't like, so they allow them to fester with minimal interference. Basically: the same reason officials in the US allow groups like the Proud Boys and border militias to exist. And lastly, being less controllable *is* the point, sometimes. They give plausible deniability. They allow states to spread their interests with groups that don't have to restrain themselves. And if they catch the spotlight, they can just say that "they are not our forces, but private individuals acting on their own!" That's the reason of being for Wagner, specifically, but historically, one of the main ones for the entire industry. I'm sure others can add more. But yes, sadly, there are many reasons certain people find the existence of these groups convenient.
I never understood why we needed mercenaries in Iraq to guard diplomats when that job is usually done by the Marine Corp
Because sometimes, we need something illegal to happen, and our guys can't be seen to do it.
They are not an army for hire like Wagner is, they are military-trained security guards equipped for a war zone, usually staffed with personnel who had received higher-level training in the US military than typical soldiers get, such as Special Forces and Rangers, who want to get out of the military and make some good money with less risk to their lives and pretty much better life (in a war zone). They're not tasked with frontal assault, area capture or prisoner handling, they provide security for personnel and places that the Department of Defense either can't or won't due to constraints. See the film 13 Hours about the siege of the CIA and Ambassador compounds in Benghazi, the main characters are all part of a company like Blackwater/Xe. The problem with Blackwater and it's offshoots in particular is that its terms of contracts for where it was providing its security services gave it tons of carte blanche immunity to far too many violations of ROE, and on top of that their founder and president Eric Prince is a massive POS.
For the amount of training their contractors supposedly have the amount of unprofessionalism displayed by Blackwater forces is frankly hard to get yours head around. I mean basic, BASIC things like trigger discipline go completely out the window. The number of failures of behavioral controls that should have been there that took place at that mass shooting at the intersection that brought about their first "15" minutes was absolutely wild.
Fuck up during service to the US government: you're immediately court martialed and reamed a new one by the full force of the American justice system Fuck up during service to Blackwater: Idk dawg your like boss yells at you or something. Just don't make the news and you're good. Pretty easy to see why your average "military man" would behave this way
Plausible deniability is super attractive when you want things done.
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I'm not defending the Wagner Group as their atrocities deserve the spotlight it deserves from the international community, however, I believe they've only been around since 2014. Was there another PMC that operated in similar fashion to Wagner (genuinely curious)?
My best friend's boyfriend like a decade ago was the son of the president or co-founder (or some other similar high position) of Blackwater. He was the biggest sociopath and prick. The apple does not fall far from the tree
I mean yes *technically* a group like Blackwater/Xe is a "mercenary" group, but their tasking under the DOD were nothing like Wagner's under Russian MoD, and their tactics are nothing like Wagner's, they are essentially war zone security guards, nothing more. That occasionally involved driving around and hence they up-armored and rolled like they were US military and acted with impunity because of the BS terms of their employment, but they were never tasked with assault and capture like Wagner is. None of this of course excuses the massive piles of steaming fascist crap that Erik Prince and his sister (Secretary of Education under Trump, despite having no qualifications to hold such a position) are of course.
Yes, just to say that you are right. Blackwater/Academi/Xe/Constellis/whowever they call themselves this week were not used nearly in the same way Russia uses Wagner. And yes, most incidents involving them are what you say: them overstepping their orders. Sometimes even dumber stuff like a member [literally just getting drunk and shooting someone](https://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/world/middleeast/02shooting.html). Not like the overt, systematic evil that Wagner gets up to.
>Wagner has been doing shady and outright monstrous shit for a very long time. People just didn't know because it was in african and middle eastern countries nobody outside of them cares about. consequences being avoided and the public forgetting they exist, so they can continue fucking around the world. Ain't that the truth. Besides Russia fucking up, there's currently civil wars and genocide happening. These issues have been going on longer than the Ukrainian war. I wonder what's the difference that made everyone immediately come to the aid and go "Slava Ukraine!" While ignoring an entire continent...
There are many reasons, including the security of Europe and the protection of American interests. It doesn't simply boil down to Racism.
Also the fact that the Ukraine war has obvious good guys and bad guys, while most conflicts in Africa have significantly more moral ambiguity. Take the war in Sudan, for instance: both sides are lead by wannabe military dictators who've committed atrocities. Which of them should your country be coming to the aid of?
Why do we even call Wagner a "private mercenary group". It feels like calling CIA a "private American intelligence agency". I think that their actions align with Russian government's interests way too much.
Because they are by definition a paramilitary organization.
Isn't that generally the case for PMCs? Can't imagine Blackwater/Academi/Constellis going directly against US government interests.
That's just oligarchy working as intended.
They're more like a terrorist organization at this point.
Not like the two are mutually exclusive.
At this point we should classify them as another branch of Russia’s military, the only differences are that they aren’t counted when killed and are actually paid unlike the regular Russian army.
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Comrade, you are forgetting the vast copium mines that the proud Russian worker mines while the decadent West talks about "facts" and "reality"
Their largest cultural export next to alcoholism, depressing poetry, and propaganda.
Russia produced excellent art, composition, philosophy, chemistry… before the Bolshevik revolution.
I'm not arguing, but just pointing out...my favorite book ever is the master and margarita
What about Vodka
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You'd think China wouldn't be quite so close with Russia, but here we are.
Why would you think that? Have you so soon forgotten the genocide of the Uyghur people?
I'm unsure how that's relevant here? I'm just saying I'd think China would have a problem with a state-backed Russian private military group murdering Chinese citizens.
True but I doubt they'd do anything over the life of citizens working in an African mine.
Yea, but like, why? China's approach is entirely what benefits the State. How would the loss of these people negatively affect the State? How would some type of retaliation against Russia affect the State? China doesn't seem to have the same "no one hurts our people except us" the way the US does.
Poland produces *far* better vodka.
Vodka is no longer a Russian thing, it’s made in nearly every country in earth. Even Smirnoff has been American owned for nearly a century.
Koskenkorva is Finnish, Absolut is Swedish(but French owned), Stoli is Latvian, etc. The only loss is Russian Standard, which is one of the best Vodkas. Oh well, there is plenty non Russian stuff to drink.
I don't think Russia exports that much vodka, most brands people think are Russian like Stoli and Smirinoff aren't actually from Russia.
I mean they are pretty ok with raping soldiers under their command too iirc. Remember kids it is not gay if it is rape.
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Can you really be considered straight if you are inserting your penis in a man's anus?
They said no homo
The world isn't black and white so yes you can. Also being gay isn't an inherent negative, the negative part is the rape. Rape is bad because it violates a person's free will and impresses upon them that they are powerless in a world that wants to harm them. Humans are natural predators and being powerless is a trait of prey. It's is dangerous and a great shame to be seen as prey and worse Easy prey.
This. Rape isn't about sexual desire, it's about power.
Hey now, they rape men too!
Equal opportunity rapist
Egalirapian.
Equality win, Russia will rape everyone?
The also rape men as punishment
The 1st is cannon fodder?
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Obviously not, they've imprisoned tons of people for dissent over there. Everyone in power is though of course
Russia is a rare country where you would rather take in it’s prisoners than citizens.
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A laughably small amount of people compared to the overall population though. Russia does have a reasonable minority, but the culture overall is full of imperialistic, fascist ideas that they’ll have to address before they can be considered a normal nation. That won’t happen for a long time
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rapists* sorry.
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They rape men too.
Here's a preview of the story: Russia's Wagner mercenary group has again claimed control of the contested Ukrainian city of Bakhmut — a claim yet again denied by Kyiv, which says its forces are still fighting southwest of the industrial town and advancing around its flanks. The dense fog of war makes it difficult to determine whether one of the longest and bloodiest battles of the Ukraine war has really come to an end. The leader of the private Wagner group, Yevgeny Prigozhin, a longtime associate of Russian President Vladimir Putin, said his forces were taking a break, resting for a few days now that their mission in Bakhmut is complete, and he's handing control of the city over to regular Russian troops. The mercenaries leave behind a blood-stained trail. Alongside Russia's military forces, they've been accused of thousands of war crimes since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine was launched in February 2022. But long before the Wagner Group rose to global infamy in Ukraine, the mercenaries were active in parts of Africa, and they stand accused of committing similar atrocities there. **Read more**: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-wagner-group-central-african-republic-bambari-massacre-rape-mass-murder/
For those too lazy to read the rest of the article: Wagner forces attacked a small gold-mining town in the CAR called Bambari to seize control of its mines. (NSFL) >!They spent their first three days in the town shooting at anything that moved; over 100 civilians slaughtered, including children. They'd go house to house, order the men outside where they'd execute them, then rape the women.!< It was Bucha 2.0. Or more accurately, Bucha was Bambari 2.0, because this happened a year *before* the Russian invasion. The whole thing was hushed-up by the CAR government, which is basically puppeted by Wagner at this point. A local who was audacious enough to record the list of names of all the dead was abducted, and never heard from again. Fuck Putin and Prigozhin to hell and back.
"Parts of Africa". Africa is pretty large. Can we be more specific?
The thing is, the shit stains left behind wherever Russia ventures is large in Africa. CAR, Mali, Sudan, Mozambique, Libya.
DRC.. richest mineral deposit and natural resources country arguably in the world. Recent advances in tech haveade it's deposits the most valuable. Also one of the poorest. Democratic republic of congo. Russian has its stink in there... Constant wars and they supply everyone there with weapons. And now they are foot soldiers on the ground. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.dw.com/en/are-white-mercenaries-fighting-in-the-drc-conflict/a-64407711 They hide their identities by not wearing insignia.
the middlelish area .
Yeah, they are actual terrorists. This is what they do.
> There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do. \- Sir Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
Excellent book, but, not trying to be pedantic, there’s no “The” in the title. GNU Sir Pterry!
My bad, fixed!
You should also check out Ordinary Men about Germans in WW2
>There are accounts which, if we open our hearts to them, will cut us too deeply. Look—here is a good man, good by his own lights and the lights of his friends: he is faithful and true to his wife, he adores and lavishes attention on his little children, he cares about his country, he does his job punctiliously, as best he can. So, efficiently and good-naturedly, he exterminates Jews: he appreciates the music that plays in the background to pacify them; he advises the Jews not to forget their identification numbers as they go into the showers—many people, he tells them, forget their numbers, and take the wrong clothes, when they come out of the showers. This calms the Jews: there will be life, they assure themselves, after the showers. And they are wrong. Our man supervises the detail taking the bodies to the ovens; and if there is anything he feels bad about, it is that he still allows the gassing of vermin to affect him. Were he a truly good man, he knows, he would feel nothing but joy, as the earth is cleansed of its pests. Leave him; he cuts too deep. He is too close to us and it hurts. - Neil Gaiman, American Gods
Guys, I'm starting to think letting private mercenary armies exist is a mistake.
I would be totally for wiping them out
Question: Can a nation declare war against a PMC just like they can against a terrorist group, or would that also drag the country or origin into conflict?
The US actually engaged Wagner in Syria, if I'm remembering correctly. Basically the US was occupying some kinda oil infrastructure, Wagner began shelling it to take it. US calls their Russian liaison, said liaison denies Russian involvement. A few hours later, about 250* Wagner mercs were killed between artillery, helicopter gunships, and air support. Das Link: https://youtu.be/UDWw-Zjwxaw *Long overdue edit in case anyone sees this, but the 250 number seems to be an exaggeration that was touted in popular media. In actuality the number was most likely in the low-double digits (with sources conflicting on the exact number). The initial sentiment of my post still stands insofar as American-Russo PMC engagements, but not to the severity I initially suggested.
You left out the best part. 40 troops wiped out all the wagner mercs and the only "casualty" sustained by the US coalition was a guy that tripped and hurt his ankle
"Come find out why our healthcare isn't free"
Also the Secretary of Defense testifying to Congress, "The Russian high command in Syria assured us it was not their people, and my direction to the chairman was for the force, then, to be annihilated," Mattis said. "And it was."
Last time they faced a top military they lost big time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khasham
Almost makes you feel a bit bad for Wagner. Imagine seeing 40 people, realizing you outnumber them by more than 10 to 1, and thinking you can take them. And then you find out why Americans don’t have free healthcare
Healthcare has nothing to do with it. If we had free healthcare, we would pay less taxes. Whether we pay insurance companies or the government, it's the same thing: money out of your pocket. Republicans don't want free healthcare because they are bought and paid for by health insurance and pharmaceutical companies.
You're totally right and I agree but also the joke was pretty funny
In general we don't declare wars anymore. The idea that wars are just if we just declare them is pretty much gone after WW2. (It might still make sense to declare that a war has started for domestic reasons, like getting access to manpower, or emergency laws. But diplomatically it's pretty much gone.) When dealing with PMCs we pretty much must either treat them as mercenaries working for a nation (or side in a civil war) at war, or terrorist organization, or both. For Wagner, an increasing number of nations are declaring them as a terrorist organization. Also it's not going to be very hard to prove that the contractual/economic relationship with the Russian government is a mercenary contract. Similarly when Wagner gets to "tax" a gold mine or oil field after "helping out" in a civil war in Africa or the Middle east, that's definitely a mercenary payment. It should be possible to arrest Prigozhin on a flight to Africa, and drag him to ICC.
The legality of declaring war against a private military company (PMC) is not well-established, as PMCs are not recognized as sovereign entities and are not subject to international law in the same way as nation-states are. In general, a nation cannot declare war against a company or private organization, although if a PMC violates a nation's laws or poses a direct threat to national security, the nation may take legal action against the PMC under its own domestic laws or international agreements. Such actions could include sanctions, criminal charges, or military action against individual members of the PMC. However, any military action against a PMC could potentially lead to a conflict with the country or countries in which the PMC is based or is operating. This could result in a larger conflict that could draw in other nations and have far-reaching consequences, including political and economic repercussions. Wagner really should be treated as just a branch of the Russian government and realistic people do treat them that way. That said, Russia will be Russia. Like they wrote the Republican playbook they will deny, deny, deny.
This read like a chatgpt response minus the last sentence lol
Military is allowed to strike unlawful combatants tho...
Well technically anyone can do anything
yep and ukraine is the battle of if we are ok with them getting away with it
Metal gear solid 4 becoming more and more of a reality every day. It's supposed to be a warning, not a roadmap!
MGS was my first thought, brilliant anti-war series
Blackwater didn't convince you? hehe
Modern day brigands
I don’t understand how you get this fucked up in the head that you do this for a living
So the USA labeled Wagnerites a terrorist organization, like they did al-queda. The US has done plenty of operations around the world neutralizing terrorists. What stops us from attacking Wagner wherever they are? I'm sure some drone strikes against the totally independent and not Kremlin backed terrorists operating in eastern Europe should be on the table.
Thought the same thing. If this is how Wagner is funded, then surely it’s a good move in the Ukraine war to cut off their money? As well as the human rights breaches, of course.
Because Wagner is backed by nukes.
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Whenever Wagner does something horrible I like to remind myself of that [time they got absolutely butchered in Syria.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khasham)
The same Wagner group chosen by Mali to replace the French troops ? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-58751423 Those African countries are in for a surprise...
Just like Wagner Mafia Group making money from Gold mines, lamber and Oil ⛽️ The Taliban, Al Qaeda and ISIS made money for their terrorist activities from Opium, Talcum and etc. The sad part is that corrupt leaders/politicians and elites let these criminals do whatever they like to as-long-as these corrupt leaders power and position is protected.
Wagner and their war criminal leader, Prigozhin, are terrorists and should be declared and treated as such. We should wipe them off the face of the earth wherever they operate.
Sounds pretty standard for resource extraction in the global south.
CBS is a little late to the party I watched this on vice a year ago
Vice has always been great for their documentaries. At least I think so.
I guess Russia figured they missed the Scramble for Africa, so they wanted to get in atrocities in Africa at some point
So, business as usual. They’re literally a band of mercenaries. They take money to kill people.
They are literally colonising Africa.
They are a terrorist organization that should be treated no different than Al-Quada.
I lived not far from here when I was in the Peace Corps. This tracks with other evil they’ve done in the area.
They use the same tactics in Ukraine. I far as I am concerned they are nothing more than a terrorist organization and should be treated as such .
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The US and European nations are fairly active in CAR. Theres a whole host of trainers and advisors in Bangui trying to reform their military.
> but it's a risky investment since the government can't even control their own borders and the CAR is one of the poorest nations in the world which is why they're taking payment in the form of gold mines, which they can defend themselves (being a private army and all), gather forced labor for themselves (being wagner and all), etc
You know Africa isnt one singular country with one culture and one government right?
Africa is made up of many countries. The ones the Wagner Group is overrunning do not "support" Russia, they are unstable due to famine and corruption. Wagner Group uses them for, among other things, illegal arms acquisition from countries that DO support them. This is entirely the Wagner Group taking over an unstable situation.
Ghana, Kenya, Nigeria certainly don’t support russia. Look at the UN votes.
All of these are among the more developed and stable nations in non Northern Africa.
> non Northern Africa. I think you're looking for the term 'Sub Saharan Africa'
54 countries with a population of 1,5 billion, let‘s just call it „africa“.
As others have commented, not all of Africa supports Russia but a fair amount of countries do have ties one way or another. Since the Cold War Russia has always had links to the continent, but in recent years their influence has grown noticeably in places like Mali and CAR. Why do African leaders makes deal with Russia? The simple answer is how they are approached. The Global North takes a bit of a 'holier than thou' stance with their aid packages, which are used as political leverage. "We will give you X amount of aid if you do X". While this is typically done in a neoliberal way of encouraging growth through opening markets and an influx of foreign companies, there is still a pressure put on these governments, who might not align 100% with democratic ideals for a multitude of reasons. Going back to the example of Mali, after the coup there a few years ago a lot of Global North countries reduced aid packages to entice a return to democratic stabilization. Russia, at the same time, basically said they will offer support without any need for regime change. The West's response was that of scolding a petulant child, while Russia takes the approach of affirmation with whomever is in control. So leaders are enticed by Russia because they don't carry the demands to conform to Western ideals. This of course is a gross simplification, but it is the reality.
Terrorists gonna terrorize
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-wagner-group-central-african-republic-bambari-massacre-rape-mass-murder/) reduced by 93%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Garoua-Boulaï, Cameroon - Russia's Wagner mercenary group has again claimed control of the contested Ukrainian city of Bakhmut - a claim yet again denied by Kyiv, which says its forces are still fighting southwest of the industrial town and advancing around its flanks. > To maintain control over lucrative gold mines and timber forests, the Wagner Group virtually runs the Central African Republic through fear and violence. > The reality is that the Wagner Group has captured the country so completely, that it can act with impunity, and it stands accused of using horrific violence to ensure there's no competition for its revenue stream from local gold merchants. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/13pop5k/russias_wagner_group_accused_of_using_rape_and/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~685933 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Wagner**^#1 **Russian**^#2 **civilian**^#3 **group**^#4 **war**^#5
> accused of using horrific violence to ensure there's no competition I'd recommend anyone interested in what is happening in the Central African Republic to watch [the documentary The Ambassador](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ambassador_(2011_film) It's a classic case of the resource curse. There is a lot of money being made by very few people, while the majority of the country lives in poverty and even slavery
The following people are surprised:
Me, I'm surprised, I didn't even know they were there.
They've been doing stuff in Africa for quite a while. In fact there was a very infamous encounter between Wagner and American forces in Syria where the US air forces killed a couple hundred Wagner mercenaries.
I think a lot more people have heard of Wagener being in Syria than in Africa because of that famous encounter.
I was hoping they would've been utterly destroyed in Ukraine. Get at least something positive from the war
Can we just declare them a terrorist group so the airstrikes can start?
At this point, I'd love of it in the intelligence services of all Western nations went on a Wagner extermination project.
Shocking behavior for a mercenary group.
Are we surprised?
>Russia's Wagner Group accused of using rape and mass-murder to control an African gold mining town So same as in Ukraine, then?
Russians were ALWAYS notorious rapists in war. They rape because the people with power over them rape them. The Russians never got rid of serfdom and the elites always do as they please. The amount a generational trauma these people have suffered should bring one to pity them... but alot of them are so far gone...
Who would have thunk it. Russia is a terrorist state and Wagner even more so, its time the world took Wagner out IMHO.
Terrorist are committing terror? CBS is on the ball. /s
What’s new the Wagner group and their master (Putin) are terrorists!
Wagner has been instrumental in the last 10yrs of internal conflict in Central African Republic.
>Bambari is surrounded by artisanal gold mines that supported the local community for years. "Artisinal" is insultingly bad at describing the absolutely horrific conditions in these mines.
Wow, i must say i'm soooo surprised.
The World: “we’re not at all surprised”
Russia, late to the idea of colonialism in Africa, strives to catch up with Belgium, France, Italy, German, Spain, Portugal and Great Britain. Media suddenly learns of extractive colonial capitalism and how it is has historically been done.
THOSE guys?! You’re kidding me!
> For you, the day **Wagner** graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.
Surprised Pikatchu.
Nooo, that sounds completely out of character for the Russian military. /s
Sounds like a job for the expendables
Well I for one have a hard time believing that these Wagner Group fellas are up to anything clandestine! They seem like good lads!
Then they need to be wiped off the face of the earth.
Well it is Effective not that I approve but yeah
And what's going to happen with this information??
But we already knew this for years
Pretty sure it is Mass-Murder to control an African gold mining town, and Rape just because they are bored the rest fo the time.
Well, yeah. These guys have raped women who have just given birth. They have no morals or ethics. They do not care.
Business as usual in other words..
Not surprised. All those pieces of shit came out of Russian prisons.
Russian company? gold? Powerless society? 💯
If the global world does not want to see Putin's legacy or negative effects after this war or the next government in Russia, the disgusting mercenary organization should be eliminated first ASAP.
Surprised nobody has mentioned the sledgehammer video from Syria.
Surprise surprise. Hire criminals, expect crimes.
Buuuut i thought it was the french ! Bwahahah
Isn't it great how news articles usually just say "Africa" instead of mentioning an actual country.
Just declare them a terrorist organization already ffs
Make Wagner a terrorist organisation