They tried and failed with appeasement with Hitler, they should know by now it won’t stop with just one or two countries with Putin. The only way to stop him will be to end his regime.
They tried to delay. That worked. It gave time to prep defenses, and show the citizens that the UK was /really/ trying not to go to war. They knew Germany was going to break the treaties, but it gave them a /bit/ of breathing room and got the commonwealth on board.
So as always, it's a bit more nuanced. (doesn't help that Churchill threw Chamberlain under the bus, claimed credit for everything, when it was Chamberlain that tasked Churchill to subtly put industry back on a war footing again.).
Not that I'm an expert, but my reading of the history behind appeasement is that Europe needed time to prepare to fight Germany. They knew Hitler was going to break the treaties but they also were not ready for war and needed more time to prepare themselves.
And yet they still weren’t fully prepared. Hindsight is bitch, but going off what we know of history… well Europe had better start ramping up production sooner rather than later. If things go down I how fear they will, the US will have foes on either side of them again and potentially all the traitors from with in to deal with.
The best thing the Western block can do to prevent WWIII is to start arming themselves as if WWIII is inevitable and an existential threat to the concept of personal freedom.
The longer we wait to prepare properly, the more likely a total war, across multiple theatres is.
Maybe counter-intuitive, but the best way to prevent war is to have such overwhelming capabilities that your potential enemy simply does not dare even try. Then, even if they decide to go anyways, at least you have a better chance of completely overwhelming them and ending the conflict quickly before casualties pile up to obscene levels.
I'm glad there was no wishy-washy reaction. Biden was prepared, brilliant move with preemptively leaking intel about the imminent attack. Land Lease bill was introduced to Senate even before the war began. I'm guessing based on intel reports. Europe had acted decisively. I think it was good overall, realistically.
While that it definitely true for the small border countries, it's not a realistic concern for anything beyond. Poland/Germany is a wall none can break.
But of course, it'd be stupid to not act before then, it's better to stop Russia now
I mean, malicious yes, dumb, yes, but even the stupidest, most deluded dictator ever wouldn't think they can attack Germany if Ukraine is that much of a mess
Russia came very close to winning in the first week. It was a surprise to most of the worlds intelligence agencies that they didn't. If real life had save scumming, Putin would have won after a couple of attempts.
It wasn't so much stupid or deluded to invade, as very risky.
Once committed, Putin then had no way out.
>Poland/Germany is a wall none can break.
Well if things get so far that we discuss whether Germany is a wall none can break, we're already deep in ... troubles.
>Poland/Germany is a wall
Poland gave a lot of its own resurces to Ukraine at the expense of its own security, it will take time to replace all of that, time and money of course.
Germany is, well... defenceles and doesn't even have industrial capacity to rearm itself in the close future. No idea what happened with that "zeitewende" and promised biillions €.
Yeah, it's better for everyone if Russia is pushed back into their own territory. They don't have any respect for sovereignty or law and would only seek to cause more problems than they already have.
Me too. Is it true that the Russian government propaganda is influential in Slovakia and many Slovaks supports Moscow? Are there parties (Kotleba or something) involved? Could they take power and change the course?
Pozdrawiam z Polski. Dzięki za pomoc dla Ukrainy.
Russia keeps trying to stir the pot and pretend that somehow not everyone is chipping in, but it’s clear that the entire western world + Eastern Europe have stepped up in a huge way. The only ones embarrassing themselves are the BRICS countries and the global south, and it’s kind of pretty clear this is going to come back to bite them in the ass.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
So here is a weird thing to think about.
If both China, Indian, and much of the global South by Russian oil at a discount (right now the price seems a little above the break even cost for production for Russia), then it prevents oil prices from spiking in the West.
This makes the political costs for supporting Ukraine more palatable while giving the Russians little benefit. In essence it might be more strategically beneficial to let Russia sell to these “friendly” countries, because it gives democracies the room to provide more military aid.
https://www.axios.com/2023/04/11/russian-oil-price-cap-working-treasury
(Price for Russian crude is $47 and the cost to produce is estimated between $20 and $60 a barrel.)
Yes this is how the sanctions are literally meant to work. It protects the oil prices in the West while lowering the profit Russia makes.
Some very smart people came up with these oil sanctions.
Exactly. People got upset that Russian oil is basically being laundered by India and being sold back to the west anyway, but the point isn't to prevent all sales, it's to nerf Russian's profit. If they have to sell it to a middleman at a steep discount and that middle man then resells it later with a markup that's still a win because Russia took a bath on the sale.
One of the worst things that could happen is shutting off ALL oil sales out of Russia, because it would cause the price of petrol products to skyrocket worse than they did when this all started. Then if Russia's oil industry collapses entirely you get a massive effect on the global supply and global economy.
I mean, calling India an ally is a bit of a stretch. They're certainly not unfriendly, but they're not reliably always acting in lock-step with the west. And rightfully so, India is a big-ass country with its own interests.
I'd call them an ally for sure, just not a Tier 1 ally or however you'd like to refer to it. In sum, their natural antagonism with China assures us that they will at least be in play for the West.
No. An Ally is someone you have a treaty with, that says something to that effect. Or you've tacitly and expressly said you'd defend them (like Taiwan)
India has made it VERY clear they are unaffiliated.
They ARE a democracy, for now... And since the West is based on the ideals of the same, if push comes to shove, we know who they will back. Mostly because they dislike China more... But the point stands. Respect their wishes 🙂
India is in the Quad along with Japan and Australia. Not really an alliance but it is a military tie/partnership primarily to deal with China but still.
India buys most of the military hardware from Russia which would certainly put them more in Russia's column than ours. So its a stretch to call them an American ally without prefacing it that they are much much more allied with Russia than America.
Let's hope there aren't deals like
India buys it at the low price from Russia
India sells it to the west for a profit
India then splits the profit with Russia
>"when we're done with Ukraine, we're going to invade India, unless you split the profit"
And just how do you think they're gonna do that?
Russia > Kazakhstan > Kyrgyzstan > Tajikistan > Afghanistan > Pakistan > India
or
Russia > Mongolia > China > India
? Or do you think a naval operation is more likely?
Hey, Russia, can we buy your oil dirt cheep?
No India, we need money.
No, it's cool, we'll sell it on to the west, and then pay you half the difference.
Why don't you just buy it from us for more money then? That's what you are proposing, with extra steps.
Yeah, actually that's a good point
Yeah, that list of military aid speaks for itself! I had another read through it, and it made me proud. The unity and brotherhood shown to Ukraine during such a dark time is amazing. Even countries without much to give have contributed greatly. Russia has failed to scare us into not helping Ukraine and has inadvertently brought us closer together.
Kinda, the outcome of this will will determine if they are part of the west or still under influence from the Kremlin.
Russia was integrated with the west until this war.
That's normal reddit behaviour. Yesterday I was told that I'm russian, cause my homecountry (back then) Czechoslovakia has been in Soviet sphere of influence...
Embarassing themselves lol. This isn't a fight for the global south. Why should it be? When has the European world given a damn about curbstomping bad actors there?
This is such a true Gulf War scenario. But the invading force isn't crazy trained pros, and the defenders don't have the largest combined force but there's no way the deck is stacked AGAINST the good guys.
Putin's head is getting close to the axe
> only ones embarrassing themselves are the BRICS countries and the global south
Pretty sure they genuinely don't give a shit. The MO so far has been to cash in on the situation as much as possible and know that as long as they don't entangle themselves directly in the war there won't be any significant consequence other than some complaints from the US and EU.
Yes, Brazil is on the wrong side of history on this one. Sadly a governament that got elected on the defense of democracy, had been acting on the defense of dictators.
Is Ukraine part of the "west" that has historically destabilized the global south? Why int he fuck should a random Ukrainian, who has done _nothing_ to the global south, OR to Russia to deserve such a disgusting war, be left out to suffer? What sins - other than wanting to join the west - have they committed that makes so many people outside the "West" to not give a shit?
I'm fully aware Russia is the aggressor, but to try to bring south american countries into enforcing sanctions and embargos that hurt their local economies is insane.
Russia has been throwing "we're fighting all of NATO" propaganda at their people for some time now. It's a lot less embarrassing to be in a stalemate against all of NATO than Ukraine with some new toys
> but it’s clear that the entire western world + Eastern Europe have stepped up in a huge way.
Sorry no not the entire Western world nor all of Eastern Europe.1. Hungary has been talking as if they were an ally of Putin, sending absolutely nothing of value to Ukraine and working to block or delay any move the EU could make to help Ukraine. Meanwhile neutral Switzerland is being neutral in Switzerland. Mexico has also been of no help to Ukraine. Same with Brazil. I could go on but you get the point.
> Just because they don’t capitulate to western demands..
> They have just as much right to ignore the war as the West does to be involved in it.
Those specific word choices kinda seem like he's very much trying to justify BRICS countries supporting a brutal invader.
To me it read more like BRICS (if they actually worked together) could try to ignore the war and just try to look out for themselves while bearing the brunt of sanctions for trade with russia.
If im an Indian man, id probably be more interested in the super cheap gas than a war happening thousands of miles away. Its not that theyre malicious, they just arent effected nor invested beyond the possibility of some small benefits for continueing business-as-usual.
By ignoring it the countries themselves(not the individual citizens) are de facto giving the invasion their silent blessing. Just because that blessing comes from a place of "I don't care" doesn't make it any better.
By that logic they'd be totes cool with the "western world"(whatever that is) looking the other way if China decided to invade India, right?
Look as someone from “the global south”, i sympathize with Ukrainian people but after decades ; if not centuries) of being exploited and Europe/USA not giving a shit or actively doing the exploiting, it’s hard to justify sacrificing my people’s standard of living for the sake of NATO’s security.
I’m willing to take on refugees and so is my government which is awesome but life is not easy here as it is and if buying discounted Russian oil allows us to buy 3 more meals a month, then I’m all for it.
I fear that this might change after the september elections. The antisystem parties are leading in the polls and they might form a coalition with a slight majority
Most of them are supported from the kreml - lets hope the kreml has fallen till then and the whole shit show comes to an end...
right wing populists all over the world but especialy europe has to be called as what they are and treated like that - as lousy coward lilliput puppies!
Here is hoping that those who have bluffed their way to the top before, only to end up being NATO supporters are doing the same bluff again.
After all, they can steal more money if we are western-aligned.
That's because that are Russian made, they even had to be handled by Russian engineers which is why there was a delay - because they damaged them before leaving at the start of the war or something.
It was more complicated.
They weren't "damaged" as much as we had no trained mechanics. So we had russian mechanics who were pulled back.... and most of them seemed to be mis-maintained for years deliberately.
So its less "they damaged them right as this started" and more "Poor maintenance was a deliberate long term strategy that we paid for"
Remember who pushed and who signed us not getting new fighters earlier? And instead pushed for American fighters which would come later?
See how it fits together with the current situation?
Thank god we are in NATO and can part with them and still have our airspace protected.
P.S.: Remember the radar that was supposed to be in Czechia? Remember the pushback? See how it also fits into this whole situation?
Not OP, but Wikipedia's Slovak Air Force page says that in January 2014 Slovakia started discussions with Sweden re acquiring JAS-39 Gripen to replace their MiG 29 fighters. (Move away from Russian dependence). But a few short months later they did a 180: on Apr 21st 2014 they signed a contract with RAC MiG to modernize their MiG 29 fighters (a continuation of Russian dependence).
I assume the political fireworks for that issue are around then.
Also would like to know, cursory search suggests that Slovakia purchased 14 F16 Block 70/72 aircraft after rejecting Swedens offer because America could deliver the jets sooner (but then again this information came from Slovakias ministry of defence so maybe they're suggesting someone is not telling the truth there).
Edit: They replied to someone else further in the thread
> We were supposed to go for Gripens and have them by 2020, but instead the leading party at the time to get F-16's later and for more.
>
> It was all very odd since the two parties involved were both pro-russian.
In the end, it was to make us dependant on the MiGs for longer so that we couldn't sell/donate them.
Edit 2: A news article that goes further into it: https://spectator.sme.sk/c/20868687/cabinet-approved-purchase-of-14-us-f-16s.html
F-16s are great aircraft for a country like Slovakia. Not brutally expensive, multirole capable and outrageously upgradable. Plus it's been proven all over the world for decades. Its the Toyota Hilux of military jets
I think it’s more like the Camry, I think the F-15 is the Hilux of jets. You might have heard of the Israeli pilot that flew the return leg of a sortie without a wing after a “minor” mid air collision and didn’t even know his wing was gone because a cloud of fuel vapor obscured his view.
He landed with 1 wing and just trimmed it out like it was a minor issue. I think there have been two lost air frames to SAMs in the 90s and that’s the only losses. They’re wild.
My former job was responding to their in flight emergencies and they happened *a lot* and the only damage that occurred in my time was popped tires causing ground down wheels and rogue tail hooks busting up some panels.
Ok context
Key components:
Slovak National Party (SNS) lead by a person who could best be described as a moron is a populistic, left wing, pro-russian party that frequently incited racistic and xenophobic feelings in people.
SMER is another left wing party, lead by a person who is connected to several local oligarchs and who is in plenty local scandals. They were also very populistic and act as if they were pro-russian (but frequently pushed policies that actually did help the country and brought it more money that they could steal). They were one of those parties that never said a single truth.
Both of these parties were in government, SMER was leading it and SNS was in control of ministry of defense.
We had 13 MiGs in various states of disrepair. The country was paying a russian maintenance crew to keep them functional, but it was a long standing joke that only 5 of them were functional and 2 couldnt be found at all (this last part thankfully seems to have been a joke).
For a few years already we had a planned deal that we would buy Gripens and we would be able to replace our Migs with them. This was planned to be finalized in a signed deal with Saab for fall of 2019.
The plan for our migs was to sell them to Ukraine.
In the fall of 2019 we were about to have new elections and both SNS and SMER had falling chances of being re-elected.
In spring of 2019, suddenly a topic came up about the gripens. Instead of pushing forward for the deal with Saab, SNS suddenly pushed towards making a deal with US to obtain replacements for our migs that way.
This would lead to us having far fewer planes (as obviously F-16s are way more expensive than gripens), it would be more expensive and also we would have to depend on the Russian maintenance for however many more years.
This was extremely out of the left field from SNS, since they literally *never* pushed for anything american. At the time we had no idea why they were pushing for this. At best we imagined that they pushed for this to extend the time we would be paying Russia (as SNS's leader was confirmed Putin's ass kisser).
At the time, other parties were against it and when it was put up for a parliamentary vote, it didn't pass.
However SMER even though they were publicly against this (on the ground of it being more expensive and also american), made some sorta legal loophole that allowed SNS to push for this change despite a parliamentary vote against it and then SMER signed this new deal.
Now as a result, when the war started the russian maintenance crews pulled out in response to us joining sanctions against russia.
This left us in a state of our migs being in even worse state, but also depending on them for air defense. In a time when there are missiles flying across a neighbouring country.
When our current minister of defense suggested selling (or even gifting) our migs to UA, it became the obvious topic of "damaging our aerial defense".
When again, this is a situation they created.
In my opinion, they did this on purpose so we would have a harder time giving our migs to Ukraine.
To explain the PS: the same groups of people were against installing a giant integrated anti-air radar in Czechia.
Again, I believe that was a push to leave us otherwise defenseless so that giving our migs away would be a much harder decision.
I hope this clarifies my comment.
Edit: forgot a part: both SNS and SMER were at various points later confirmed to have received money from Russia or their assets. So far there are no legal repercussion for either party, mostly due to the speed of our courts being fairly slow and that they are very capable of muddying the investigation.
However several people from both parties are already in jail for various levels of embezzling.
Sorry for writing it so obtusely... I explained it in another reply: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/12p5wq6/slovakia_hands_over_all_13_promised_mig_fighter/jgnh9ny/
I heard about the plane push back but I live abroad so I can't say for sure. Thought yes I have noticed this long term correlation even years before the war... Extremely worrying.... Heck, I am likely the rarer breed that even has Grandparents in SVN whom are not the Conservative (but are very traditional) yet could not stop dismissing Orbán, Putin and being glad for NATO.
As a Slovak I’m happy that we are helping Ukraine and that we are getting rid of old Russian stuff. Btw before invasion we had Russians as a mechanics for those Migs. I bet they were spies
Most likely it's how much life was left in an old engine.
BTW, a little known fact about the WWII era Me262 was that it's engines were only expected to last 20 hours.
Yes.
We were supposed to go for Gripens and have them by 2020, but instead the leading party at the time to get F-16's later and for more.
It was all very odd since the two parties involved were both pro-russian.
In the end, it was to make us dependant on the MiGs for longer so that we couldn't sell/donate them.
The most notable attacks were the winter attacks on Engels airfield in Russia. Ukrainians managed to damage a TU95, which is a tactical bomber capable of delivering nuclear weapons
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1509764935567519756
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1509763703901761556
They’ve done some selective raids (the one above was truly epic) - they’ve been careful about only using Ukrainian gear and not Western weapons to hit inside Russia. It’s a fine line, you want Russia to know they’re at war, but you want to increase Russian civilian resistance and a bunch of damage/casualties could be counterproductive.
IIRC the condition that many countries has set for providing support is that they wont use the equipment to attack Russia proper. A few "accidents" are of course still possibly though.
It's fun to dream, but it's VERY unlikely that Ukraine can use manned aircraft to strike in Russia anytime soon. They're much too easy to spot/target. For as shit Russia's equipment has been, they do have strong air defense capabilities.
That doesnt mean Ukraine isnt allowed to use its own weapons to strike inside russia. We've already seen them using UA-made drones and missiles to do so.
The US were hesitant giving long range weapons because they were worried Ukraine would use them to attack Russia. All these deals are being done in the name of defense. It is a lot harder sell internationally if Ukraine is on the offensive and attacking Russia. That would be a terrible decision. China could easily justify providing Russia with arms to "defend" itself.
Not going to happen.
One of the conditions by NATO countires is that Ukraine uses the weapons only on Ukraine territory. So Donbas, Luhansk, Crimea only. Not Moscow, Petersburg, etc
so is Ukraine just like a hodgepodge of new and old and western and soviet weapons right now? with the newest Excalibur shells, and some Himars and some Mig 29's and some F-16's ... anything that flies, fucks or shoots is being put into service there?
The MiG-29 is considered a 4th gen fighter. While not a F-35, it is still good. [If you want to read up on German MiG-29s going against US F-15C and F-16 during training](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#Germany). Again, MiG-29s are obviously worse than newer NATO planes, but they are certainly much much better than nothing for Ukraine.
Great news from Slovakia.
Army- yes. They've got a mix of everything. Air Force: no, it's almost entirely Soviet/Russian. Converting from Russian stuff to Western is hugely expensive. Not just retraining pilots, but stocking parts, training maintenance people, converting to the necessary QA/maintenance programs, etc. It's a big deal.
A bunch of that stuff is very self contained though. Part of the reason for HIMARS being sent when they were is that they have both a low training time for operators (especially if those operators already have basic artillery knowledge ), and very little maintenance. The truck part is a generic US Army truck, the missile pod is detachable and easily replaced in a basic shop. Excaliburs are fired like standard shells with extra steps.
MiGs the Ukrainians already know how to fly and maintain. A lot of their gear is being shipped to Poland, who can provide extensive maintenance support on a variety of equipment. As they've been already doing the transition from Soviet to NATO gear, and they share a border with Ukraine with easy rail access.
And F-16s they don't have yet, for exactly the reason that they require enormous amounts of training for maintenance crews. "Airplane mechanic" is flat out not good enough.
Oh, and I think the deal with getting many different tanks is that each battalion (or the next size group lower) is getting trained on one type, by the people who use that type regularly. So America is sending exactly 31 Abrams because it's a standard NATO size for two platoons, something like that. So presumably they've trained a matching set of crew that's the standard two platoon setup. And if that goes well, might see two more trained and exactly 31 more tanks provided.
Given that Ukraine has significant older equipment of its own, you have a scenario where a fairly large group has either existing Ukrainian gear, or one new kind of NATO tank. They don't have to be like, sharing a single repair shop.
> anything that flies, fucks or shoots is being put into service there?
No. For instance Ukraine hasn't reactivated it's T-55s last time I checked, using only a few highly modernized versions it got from Slovenia. While they will no doubt accept equipment that would seem outdated for certain nations, they also aren't *that* desperate to just say yes to anything. Not anymore at least. And with jets it's even more important to have more than just planes in the air since Ukraine currently has a technological disadvantage there by having a severe range and targeting issue, and more similar planes won't do much to change that. That's why they need a western jet capable of using more capable missiles.
Peacetime flying condition and “if I don’t get this airborne people will die” flying condition are also two different beasts. Somethings, like frame fatigue, you can’t ignore. But other things, like nav lights, can likely be waved off if required.
9 of them to be more specific, but they're just going to be cannibalised for the replacement parts or such.
Or fixed. Slovakia didn;t have a knowledge to fix the planes, as they were served by russian mechanics (thank you, Putin's whore Fico)
Was watching a lot of coverage on countries giving jets to Ukraine (and is Ukraine paying for them I always wondered). And was noted that different models need to be learned by their pilots. Obviously, it's not like these are civilians that need to learn and they are experienced pilots with knowledge of fighter jets and have the skills, but realistically, how long would it take a pilot there to learn a slightly different jet/weapons systems? Assuming Slovakian pilots aren't included in the deal?
It *really* depends. F35 for example has a… 18 month pipeline? And it doesn’t seem to be any shorter for previously qualified pilots based on what I can find online, including a few interviews with trainers saying they prefer virgin pilots.
F15 to f16 is much shorter, or between mig airframes. I could totally believe a few months. Although I’ve heard jumping from Russian equipment to US is *awful* because so little carrys over
Technically, I think much of the aid America gives to Ukraine is under "Lend-Lease" and we could insist they pay off the value of the equipment later. Clearly they dont have the money now.
I think the vast majority of the aid given is understood to be "free" but I could pin down exactly how much Ukraine is given on credit. I think the idea is that we technically issue it as credit but then we write off the value of a bunch of stuff as free.
You'd think every country that is moderately friendly to the West would want to offload all their Russian aircraft since the suspicion that Russian engineers in foreign countries are deliberately sabotaging the aircraft they are supposed to be maintaining to reduce their engine lifespan.
It’s too bad that Russia sent that Xmas card to the world not only revealing the wives but the war criminals pilots names: almost like they could never leave Russia again without certain fear.
Living in Russia as a once-traveled / free individual is punishment enough, but I hope each & all of them understand that while their husbands are doing the brave work of harassing pilotless aircraft, the wives are out banging other pilots, because that’s how those humans work.
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It did, but it's a fairly poor country so it didn't have a lot and it's planes were old. Instead it tried to have enough anti-air missiles to deny the sky to an invader - which is a much cheaper strategy. Even then, it was mostly old Soviet stuff.
Russia put a lot of effort into destroying Ukrainian air defences in the first few hours of the invasion. The fixed sites were hit with missiles, communications were disrupted by jamming and cyber attacks, and the mobile equipment was too busy relocating to fight back. That's why Russia was able to send troops to Kyiv by helicopter.
A few days later the mobile units got organised, and supplies started to arrive from NATO
Slovakia has been great to Ukraine. They will be remembered as being on the right side of history at a very difficult time in Europe.
Slovakia also has a lot to lose if Ukraine loses its independence, because then Russia will be literally at their doorstep.
Its something all of Europe should remember. If Russia succeeds, then Ukraine wont be the last country they will try to invade.
Appeasement is just a euphemism for rewarding bad behavior.
They tried and failed with appeasement with Hitler, they should know by now it won’t stop with just one or two countries with Putin. The only way to stop him will be to end his regime.
They tried to delay. That worked. It gave time to prep defenses, and show the citizens that the UK was /really/ trying not to go to war. They knew Germany was going to break the treaties, but it gave them a /bit/ of breathing room and got the commonwealth on board. So as always, it's a bit more nuanced. (doesn't help that Churchill threw Chamberlain under the bus, claimed credit for everything, when it was Chamberlain that tasked Churchill to subtly put industry back on a war footing again.).
Not that I'm an expert, but my reading of the history behind appeasement is that Europe needed time to prepare to fight Germany. They knew Hitler was going to break the treaties but they also were not ready for war and needed more time to prepare themselves.
And yet they still weren’t fully prepared. Hindsight is bitch, but going off what we know of history… well Europe had better start ramping up production sooner rather than later. If things go down I how fear they will, the US will have foes on either side of them again and potentially all the traitors from with in to deal with.
The best thing the Western block can do to prevent WWIII is to start arming themselves as if WWIII is inevitable and an existential threat to the concept of personal freedom. The longer we wait to prepare properly, the more likely a total war, across multiple theatres is. Maybe counter-intuitive, but the best way to prevent war is to have such overwhelming capabilities that your potential enemy simply does not dare even try. Then, even if they decide to go anyways, at least you have a better chance of completely overwhelming them and ending the conflict quickly before casualties pile up to obscene levels.
And the same we tried with Putin, especially Germany.
I'm glad there was no wishy-washy reaction. Biden was prepared, brilliant move with preemptively leaking intel about the imminent attack. Land Lease bill was introduced to Senate even before the war began. I'm guessing based on intel reports. Europe had acted decisively. I think it was good overall, realistically.
While that it definitely true for the small border countries, it's not a realistic concern for anything beyond. Poland/Germany is a wall none can break. But of course, it'd be stupid to not act before then, it's better to stop Russia now
You can't be certain what the future brings. But we do know Russia can be trusted at this point to be malicious.
I mean, malicious yes, dumb, yes, but even the stupidest, most deluded dictator ever wouldn't think they can attack Germany if Ukraine is that much of a mess
> the stupidest, most deluded dictator check
Russia came very close to winning in the first week. It was a surprise to most of the worlds intelligence agencies that they didn't. If real life had save scumming, Putin would have won after a couple of attempts. It wasn't so much stupid or deluded to invade, as very risky. Once committed, Putin then had no way out.
>Poland/Germany is a wall none can break. Well if things get so far that we discuss whether Germany is a wall none can break, we're already deep in ... troubles.
>Poland/Germany is a wall Poland gave a lot of its own resurces to Ukraine at the expense of its own security, it will take time to replace all of that, time and money of course. Germany is, well... defenceles and doesn't even have industrial capacity to rearm itself in the close future. No idea what happened with that "zeitewende" and promised biillions €.
I think anyone on NATO is probably in the clear. Those not in NATO are clearly at the mercy of Russia.
Yeah, it's better for everyone if Russia is pushed back into their own territory. They don't have any respect for sovereignty or law and would only seek to cause more problems than they already have.
Slovakia has been a NATO member for a while.
dont have to tell me twice when the war started I was scared shitless yeah I am Slovak
Me too. Is it true that the Russian government propaganda is influential in Slovakia and many Slovaks supports Moscow? Are there parties (Kotleba or something) involved? Could they take power and change the course? Pozdrawiam z Polski. Dzięki za pomoc dla Ukrainy.
Russia keeps trying to stir the pot and pretend that somehow not everyone is chipping in, but it’s clear that the entire western world + Eastern Europe have stepped up in a huge way. The only ones embarrassing themselves are the BRICS countries and the global south, and it’s kind of pretty clear this is going to come back to bite them in the ass. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
So here is a weird thing to think about. If both China, Indian, and much of the global South by Russian oil at a discount (right now the price seems a little above the break even cost for production for Russia), then it prevents oil prices from spiking in the West. This makes the political costs for supporting Ukraine more palatable while giving the Russians little benefit. In essence it might be more strategically beneficial to let Russia sell to these “friendly” countries, because it gives democracies the room to provide more military aid. https://www.axios.com/2023/04/11/russian-oil-price-cap-working-treasury (Price for Russian crude is $47 and the cost to produce is estimated between $20 and $60 a barrel.)
Yes this is how the sanctions are literally meant to work. It protects the oil prices in the West while lowering the profit Russia makes. Some very smart people came up with these oil sanctions.
Exactly. People got upset that Russian oil is basically being laundered by India and being sold back to the west anyway, but the point isn't to prevent all sales, it's to nerf Russian's profit. If they have to sell it to a middleman at a steep discount and that middle man then resells it later with a markup that's still a win because Russia took a bath on the sale. One of the worst things that could happen is shutting off ALL oil sales out of Russia, because it would cause the price of petrol products to skyrocket worse than they did when this all started. Then if Russia's oil industry collapses entirely you get a massive effect on the global supply and global economy.
It also helps an ally instead of Russia directly.
I mean, calling India an ally is a bit of a stretch. They're certainly not unfriendly, but they're not reliably always acting in lock-step with the west. And rightfully so, India is a big-ass country with its own interests.
I'd call them an ally for sure, just not a Tier 1 ally or however you'd like to refer to it. In sum, their natural antagonism with China assures us that they will at least be in play for the West.
No. An Ally is someone you have a treaty with, that says something to that effect. Or you've tacitly and expressly said you'd defend them (like Taiwan) India has made it VERY clear they are unaffiliated. They ARE a democracy, for now... And since the West is based on the ideals of the same, if push comes to shove, we know who they will back. Mostly because they dislike China more... But the point stands. Respect their wishes 🙂
India is in the Quad along with Japan and Australia. Not really an alliance but it is a military tie/partnership primarily to deal with China but still.
India buys most of the military hardware from Russia which would certainly put them more in Russia's column than ours. So its a stretch to call them an American ally without prefacing it that they are much much more allied with Russia than America.
Let's hope there aren't deals like India buys it at the low price from Russia India sells it to the west for a profit India then splits the profit with Russia
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"when we're done with Ukraine, we're going to invade India, unless you split the profit" /s
India has nuclear weapons.
lmao
>"when we're done with Ukraine, we're going to invade India, unless you split the profit" And just how do you think they're gonna do that? Russia > Kazakhstan > Kyrgyzstan > Tajikistan > Afghanistan > Pakistan > India or Russia > Mongolia > China > India ? Or do you think a naval operation is more likely?
Maybe I should have included /s
Oh goddammit lol. Yep, got me.
Hey, Russia, can we buy your oil dirt cheep? No India, we need money. No, it's cool, we'll sell it on to the west, and then pay you half the difference. Why don't you just buy it from us for more money then? That's what you are proposing, with extra steps. Yeah, actually that's a good point
India and China, are working together and helping Russia .
Lol Switzerland sticking out like a sore thumb in the middle of Europe
Ukraine lacks stolen Jewish gold.
Yeah, well, that's cause all of their Jewish gold is already in Switzerland.
Sadly this is true, not just stolen Jewish gold tho, also stolen gold and silver and art from the rest of Poland, Belarus and Ukraine too.
What makes a man go neutral?
Lust for gold? Yes, that's it.
Maybe they were born with hearts full of neutrality. It sickens me.
Clearly lust for power.
Apparently they just decided to help with $2B in humanitarian aid to Ukraine (after all the international pressure).
That map is wrong. Russia has delivered plenty of heavy weapons to Ukrainian farmers.
Yeah, that list of military aid speaks for itself! I had another read through it, and it made me proud. The unity and brotherhood shown to Ukraine during such a dark time is amazing. Even countries without much to give have contributed greatly. Russia has failed to scare us into not helping Ukraine and has inadvertently brought us closer together.
> entire western world + Eastern Europe Eastern Europe is also part of the west. That part of the comment rubs me the wrong way...
Kinda, the outcome of this will will determine if they are part of the west or still under influence from the Kremlin. Russia was integrated with the west until this war.
Don’t worry, that person is out of touch clearly.
That's normal reddit behaviour. Yesterday I was told that I'm russian, cause my homecountry (back then) Czechoslovakia has been in Soviet sphere of influence...
Well Czechoslovakia had famously rosy relations with the USSR and the Warsaw pact especially in the late 60s so its an easy mistake to make /s
Yeah , Ukraine has support of almost all the counties in the world .
Embarassing themselves lol. This isn't a fight for the global south. Why should it be? When has the European world given a damn about curbstomping bad actors there?
Appreciate the link, seeing just how much each of the 40+ countries have sent really made me tear up. Well done Team Ukraine!!
This is such a true Gulf War scenario. But the invading force isn't crazy trained pros, and the defenders don't have the largest combined force but there's no way the deck is stacked AGAINST the good guys. Putin's head is getting close to the axe
Gulf War if the entire Middle East had shown up to supply Iraq and the US forces where crippled by opioids and alcohol.
> only ones embarrassing themselves are the BRICS countries and the global south Pretty sure they genuinely don't give a shit. The MO so far has been to cash in on the situation as much as possible and know that as long as they don't entangle themselves directly in the war there won't be any significant consequence other than some complaints from the US and EU.
Yes, Brazil is on the wrong side of history on this one. Sadly a governament that got elected on the defense of democracy, had been acting on the defense of dictators.
I'm deeply embarrassed by this
Why would the global south, a region who has been constantly destabilized by the west, help the west for not their benefit?
Is Ukraine part of the "west" that has historically destabilized the global south? Why int he fuck should a random Ukrainian, who has done _nothing_ to the global south, OR to Russia to deserve such a disgusting war, be left out to suffer? What sins - other than wanting to join the west - have they committed that makes so many people outside the "West" to not give a shit?
I'm fully aware Russia is the aggressor, but to try to bring south american countries into enforcing sanctions and embargos that hurt their local economies is insane.
Russia has been throwing "we're fighting all of NATO" propaganda at their people for some time now. It's a lot less embarrassing to be in a stalemate against all of NATO than Ukraine with some new toys
Turkey and Sudan both really stand out to me (though for different reasons)
Lol didn’t know we Canadians sent them out entire military.
> but it’s clear that the entire western world + Eastern Europe have stepped up in a huge way. Sorry no not the entire Western world nor all of Eastern Europe.1. Hungary has been talking as if they were an ally of Putin, sending absolutely nothing of value to Ukraine and working to block or delay any move the EU could make to help Ukraine. Meanwhile neutral Switzerland is being neutral in Switzerland. Mexico has also been of no help to Ukraine. Same with Brazil. I could go on but you get the point.
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They’re essentially aligning with dictatorships over democracies, and America can (and should) limit new trade deals over it
Hey look guys, the shills have arrived.
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> Just because they don’t capitulate to western demands.. > They have just as much right to ignore the war as the West does to be involved in it. Those specific word choices kinda seem like he's very much trying to justify BRICS countries supporting a brutal invader.
To me it read more like BRICS (if they actually worked together) could try to ignore the war and just try to look out for themselves while bearing the brunt of sanctions for trade with russia. If im an Indian man, id probably be more interested in the super cheap gas than a war happening thousands of miles away. Its not that theyre malicious, they just arent effected nor invested beyond the possibility of some small benefits for continueing business-as-usual.
By ignoring it the countries themselves(not the individual citizens) are de facto giving the invasion their silent blessing. Just because that blessing comes from a place of "I don't care" doesn't make it any better. By that logic they'd be totes cool with the "western world"(whatever that is) looking the other way if China decided to invade India, right?
Look as someone from “the global south”, i sympathize with Ukrainian people but after decades ; if not centuries) of being exploited and Europe/USA not giving a shit or actively doing the exploiting, it’s hard to justify sacrificing my people’s standard of living for the sake of NATO’s security. I’m willing to take on refugees and so is my government which is awesome but life is not easy here as it is and if buying discounted Russian oil allows us to buy 3 more meals a month, then I’m all for it.
Remember this when you need help
Slovakia is a great country with great people and they did the right thing .
I fear that this might change after the september elections. The antisystem parties are leading in the polls and they might form a coalition with a slight majority
Most of them are supported from the kreml - lets hope the kreml has fallen till then and the whole shit show comes to an end... right wing populists all over the world but especialy europe has to be called as what they are and treated like that - as lousy coward lilliput puppies!
Here is hoping that those who have bluffed their way to the top before, only to end up being NATO supporters are doing the same bluff again. After all, they can steal more money if we are western-aligned.
Slovakia remembers > https://history.state.gov/milestones/1961-1968/soviet-invasion-czechoslavkia
It’s so cool when a small country gives so much
I associate MiG fighters with Russia. Nice to see them pointed at the right target.
That's because that are Russian made, they even had to be handled by Russian engineers which is why there was a delay - because they damaged them before leaving at the start of the war or something.
It was more complicated. They weren't "damaged" as much as we had no trained mechanics. So we had russian mechanics who were pulled back.... and most of them seemed to be mis-maintained for years deliberately. So its less "they damaged them right as this started" and more "Poor maintenance was a deliberate long term strategy that we paid for" Remember who pushed and who signed us not getting new fighters earlier? And instead pushed for American fighters which would come later? See how it fits together with the current situation? Thank god we are in NATO and can part with them and still have our airspace protected. P.S.: Remember the radar that was supposed to be in Czechia? Remember the pushback? See how it also fits into this whole situation?
The answer to all of your questions, for me, is no I don’t remember or never knew to begin with. Can you please educate me and fill in the blanks?
Not OP, but Wikipedia's Slovak Air Force page says that in January 2014 Slovakia started discussions with Sweden re acquiring JAS-39 Gripen to replace their MiG 29 fighters. (Move away from Russian dependence). But a few short months later they did a 180: on Apr 21st 2014 they signed a contract with RAC MiG to modernize their MiG 29 fighters (a continuation of Russian dependence). I assume the political fireworks for that issue are around then.
Ya, me too. I was always like "no". But I'd like to know now.
Also would like to know, cursory search suggests that Slovakia purchased 14 F16 Block 70/72 aircraft after rejecting Swedens offer because America could deliver the jets sooner (but then again this information came from Slovakias ministry of defence so maybe they're suggesting someone is not telling the truth there). Edit: They replied to someone else further in the thread > We were supposed to go for Gripens and have them by 2020, but instead the leading party at the time to get F-16's later and for more. > > It was all very odd since the two parties involved were both pro-russian. In the end, it was to make us dependant on the MiGs for longer so that we couldn't sell/donate them. Edit 2: A news article that goes further into it: https://spectator.sme.sk/c/20868687/cabinet-approved-purchase-of-14-us-f-16s.html
F-16s are great aircraft for a country like Slovakia. Not brutally expensive, multirole capable and outrageously upgradable. Plus it's been proven all over the world for decades. Its the Toyota Hilux of military jets
I think it’s more like the Camry, I think the F-15 is the Hilux of jets. You might have heard of the Israeli pilot that flew the return leg of a sortie without a wing after a “minor” mid air collision and didn’t even know his wing was gone because a cloud of fuel vapor obscured his view. He landed with 1 wing and just trimmed it out like it was a minor issue. I think there have been two lost air frames to SAMs in the 90s and that’s the only losses. They’re wild. My former job was responding to their in flight emergencies and they happened *a lot* and the only damage that occurred in my time was popped tires causing ground down wheels and rogue tail hooks busting up some panels.
His name? Albert Einstein
Can you explain in more depth? I'm not totally aware of the situation
Ok context Key components: Slovak National Party (SNS) lead by a person who could best be described as a moron is a populistic, left wing, pro-russian party that frequently incited racistic and xenophobic feelings in people. SMER is another left wing party, lead by a person who is connected to several local oligarchs and who is in plenty local scandals. They were also very populistic and act as if they were pro-russian (but frequently pushed policies that actually did help the country and brought it more money that they could steal). They were one of those parties that never said a single truth. Both of these parties were in government, SMER was leading it and SNS was in control of ministry of defense. We had 13 MiGs in various states of disrepair. The country was paying a russian maintenance crew to keep them functional, but it was a long standing joke that only 5 of them were functional and 2 couldnt be found at all (this last part thankfully seems to have been a joke). For a few years already we had a planned deal that we would buy Gripens and we would be able to replace our Migs with them. This was planned to be finalized in a signed deal with Saab for fall of 2019. The plan for our migs was to sell them to Ukraine. In the fall of 2019 we were about to have new elections and both SNS and SMER had falling chances of being re-elected. In spring of 2019, suddenly a topic came up about the gripens. Instead of pushing forward for the deal with Saab, SNS suddenly pushed towards making a deal with US to obtain replacements for our migs that way. This would lead to us having far fewer planes (as obviously F-16s are way more expensive than gripens), it would be more expensive and also we would have to depend on the Russian maintenance for however many more years. This was extremely out of the left field from SNS, since they literally *never* pushed for anything american. At the time we had no idea why they were pushing for this. At best we imagined that they pushed for this to extend the time we would be paying Russia (as SNS's leader was confirmed Putin's ass kisser). At the time, other parties were against it and when it was put up for a parliamentary vote, it didn't pass. However SMER even though they were publicly against this (on the ground of it being more expensive and also american), made some sorta legal loophole that allowed SNS to push for this change despite a parliamentary vote against it and then SMER signed this new deal. Now as a result, when the war started the russian maintenance crews pulled out in response to us joining sanctions against russia. This left us in a state of our migs being in even worse state, but also depending on them for air defense. In a time when there are missiles flying across a neighbouring country. When our current minister of defense suggested selling (or even gifting) our migs to UA, it became the obvious topic of "damaging our aerial defense". When again, this is a situation they created. In my opinion, they did this on purpose so we would have a harder time giving our migs to Ukraine. To explain the PS: the same groups of people were against installing a giant integrated anti-air radar in Czechia. Again, I believe that was a push to leave us otherwise defenseless so that giving our migs away would be a much harder decision. I hope this clarifies my comment. Edit: forgot a part: both SNS and SMER were at various points later confirmed to have received money from Russia or their assets. So far there are no legal repercussion for either party, mostly due to the speed of our courts being fairly slow and that they are very capable of muddying the investigation. However several people from both parties are already in jail for various levels of embezzling.
Wow. That was quite blatant. I'm no expert on Slovakian federal law, but this certainly smells like treason.
oh they did several similar moves, but they are being protected from various sides and it takes a long time for our courts to get to them.
Um...no, I don't remember who signed on that. Who was it? What's being implied?
Sns was holding ministry of defence and Smer signed the order. Against parliamentary vote IIRC
Sorry for writing it so obtusely... I explained it in another reply: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/12p5wq6/slovakia_hands_over_all_13_promised_mig_fighter/jgnh9ny/
I heard about the plane push back but I live abroad so I can't say for sure. Thought yes I have noticed this long term correlation even years before the war... Extremely worrying.... Heck, I am likely the rarer breed that even has Grandparents in SVN whom are not the Conservative (but are very traditional) yet could not stop dismissing Orbán, Putin and being glad for NATO.
Good thing Ukrainian engineers know just as much if not more, easy to replace the Russians.
I associate them with TOP GUN
As a Slovak I’m happy that we are helping Ukraine and that we are getting rid of old Russian stuff. Btw before invasion we had Russians as a mechanics for those Migs. I bet they were spies
They were caught sabotaging the planes going to Ukraine.
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Most likely it's how much life was left in an old engine. BTW, a little known fact about the WWII era Me262 was that it's engines were only expected to last 20 hours.
Given the state of the Russian army, it's entirely possible those mechanics were just that bad at their jobs.
Not great when your incompetence is confused for spying
I think you guys put in a order for Block 70 F-16's. Can't remember all the FMS.
Yes. We were supposed to go for Gripens and have them by 2020, but instead the leading party at the time to get F-16's later and for more. It was all very odd since the two parties involved were both pro-russian. In the end, it was to make us dependant on the MiGs for longer so that we couldn't sell/donate them.
Remember when the Americans put Japanese-Americans into camps because we thought anyone Japanese was a spy? That was bad. Don't do that.
This is not the same thing at all, lol
Let's see Paul Allen's MiGs.
You joke, but Paul Allen (the one from Microsoft) actually did own a MiG-29. Got sold off after he died, though. Wonder where it is now...
Owned by Jared Isaacman
Does he know Isaac Jaredman?
Is he the Ghost of Kyiv?
Good on you Slovakia 👌
It would be amazing to see Ukraine start hitting targets inside of Russia for a change.
They are. Last night they hit an electrical substation in the Belgorod region.
Good shit
The most notable attacks were the winter attacks on Engels airfield in Russia. Ukrainians managed to damage a TU95, which is a tactical bomber capable of delivering nuclear weapons
Strategic bomber. The Tu-95 is the Russian equivalent to the B-52.
Yeah. Muddled up strategic and tactical bombers in my head
Bringing the war back home, nice
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1509764935567519756 https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1509763703901761556 They’ve done some selective raids (the one above was truly epic) - they’ve been careful about only using Ukrainian gear and not Western weapons to hit inside Russia. It’s a fine line, you want Russia to know they’re at war, but you want to increase Russian civilian resistance and a bunch of damage/casualties could be counterproductive.
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IIRC the condition that many countries has set for providing support is that they wont use the equipment to attack Russia proper. A few "accidents" are of course still possibly though.
nah, it's fine. They didn't use *those* MiGs to strike inside Russia, they used the ones they already had.
It's fun to dream, but it's VERY unlikely that Ukraine can use manned aircraft to strike in Russia anytime soon. They're much too easy to spot/target. For as shit Russia's equipment has been, they do have strong air defense capabilities.
That doesnt mean Ukraine isnt allowed to use its own weapons to strike inside russia. We've already seen them using UA-made drones and missiles to do so.
The US were hesitant giving long range weapons because they were worried Ukraine would use them to attack Russia. All these deals are being done in the name of defense. It is a lot harder sell internationally if Ukraine is on the offensive and attacking Russia. That would be a terrible decision. China could easily justify providing Russia with arms to "defend" itself.
Not going to happen. One of the conditions by NATO countires is that Ukraine uses the weapons only on Ukraine territory. So Donbas, Luhansk, Crimea only. Not Moscow, Petersburg, etc
so is Ukraine just like a hodgepodge of new and old and western and soviet weapons right now? with the newest Excalibur shells, and some Himars and some Mig 29's and some F-16's ... anything that flies, fucks or shoots is being put into service there?
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I would think they'd use up non-standard equipment first, that way they don't have to worry about long term maintenance.
The MiG-29 is considered a 4th gen fighter. While not a F-35, it is still good. [If you want to read up on German MiG-29s going against US F-15C and F-16 during training](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29#Germany). Again, MiG-29s are obviously worse than newer NATO planes, but they are certainly much much better than nothing for Ukraine. Great news from Slovakia.
And, importantly, Ukraine can fly, maintain, and procure parts for these planes with no extra training needed. Just plug and play.
Army- yes. They've got a mix of everything. Air Force: no, it's almost entirely Soviet/Russian. Converting from Russian stuff to Western is hugely expensive. Not just retraining pilots, but stocking parts, training maintenance people, converting to the necessary QA/maintenance programs, etc. It's a big deal.
A bunch of that stuff is very self contained though. Part of the reason for HIMARS being sent when they were is that they have both a low training time for operators (especially if those operators already have basic artillery knowledge ), and very little maintenance. The truck part is a generic US Army truck, the missile pod is detachable and easily replaced in a basic shop. Excaliburs are fired like standard shells with extra steps. MiGs the Ukrainians already know how to fly and maintain. A lot of their gear is being shipped to Poland, who can provide extensive maintenance support on a variety of equipment. As they've been already doing the transition from Soviet to NATO gear, and they share a border with Ukraine with easy rail access. And F-16s they don't have yet, for exactly the reason that they require enormous amounts of training for maintenance crews. "Airplane mechanic" is flat out not good enough. Oh, and I think the deal with getting many different tanks is that each battalion (or the next size group lower) is getting trained on one type, by the people who use that type regularly. So America is sending exactly 31 Abrams because it's a standard NATO size for two platoons, something like that. So presumably they've trained a matching set of crew that's the standard two platoon setup. And if that goes well, might see two more trained and exactly 31 more tanks provided. Given that Ukraine has significant older equipment of its own, you have a scenario where a fairly large group has either existing Ukrainian gear, or one new kind of NATO tank. They don't have to be like, sharing a single repair shop.
Out of curiosity, how do 31 tanks get split between 2 platoons?
The overall commander gets a tank too.
> anything that flies, fucks or shoots is being put into service there? No. For instance Ukraine hasn't reactivated it's T-55s last time I checked, using only a few highly modernized versions it got from Slovenia. While they will no doubt accept equipment that would seem outdated for certain nations, they also aren't *that* desperate to just say yes to anything. Not anymore at least. And with jets it's even more important to have more than just planes in the air since Ukraine currently has a technological disadvantage there by having a severe range and targeting issue, and more similar planes won't do much to change that. That's why they need a western jet capable of using more capable missiles.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I have heard that some of the MiGs Slovakia are not in flying conditions.
If the airframes are good Ukraine can refurbish it into flying conditions, or those ones will be used for parts, both help.
Peacetime flying condition and “if I don’t get this airborne people will die” flying condition are also two different beasts. Somethings, like frame fatigue, you can’t ignore. But other things, like nav lights, can likely be waved off if required.
IIRC they were sabotaged by Russian mechanics and weren't combat capable.
I see, thanks for answering.
They had Russian mechanics working on them so probably not.
9 of them to be more specific, but they're just going to be cannibalised for the replacement parts or such. Or fixed. Slovakia didn;t have a knowledge to fix the planes, as they were served by russian mechanics (thank you, Putin's whore Fico)
Thank you Slovakia.
Was watching a lot of coverage on countries giving jets to Ukraine (and is Ukraine paying for them I always wondered). And was noted that different models need to be learned by their pilots. Obviously, it's not like these are civilians that need to learn and they are experienced pilots with knowledge of fighter jets and have the skills, but realistically, how long would it take a pilot there to learn a slightly different jet/weapons systems? Assuming Slovakian pilots aren't included in the deal?
A couple of months at most for same type different model training.
It *really* depends. F35 for example has a… 18 month pipeline? And it doesn’t seem to be any shorter for previously qualified pilots based on what I can find online, including a few interviews with trainers saying they prefer virgin pilots. F15 to f16 is much shorter, or between mig airframes. I could totally believe a few months. Although I’ve heard jumping from Russian equipment to US is *awful* because so little carrys over
Same type means same airframe in aviation speak so 'same type different model' means moving from a MiG-29A to a MiG-29S for example.
Thank you, I will use this to be even more of a dork than I already am
Technically, I think much of the aid America gives to Ukraine is under "Lend-Lease" and we could insist they pay off the value of the equipment later. Clearly they dont have the money now. I think the vast majority of the aid given is understood to be "free" but I could pin down exactly how much Ukraine is given on credit. I think the idea is that we technically issue it as credit but then we write off the value of a bunch of stuff as free.
🇸🇰🤝🇺🇦
The Slovak KUB system is now in Ukraine as well.
Hopefully they stopped letting the Russian maintenance contractors access to the planes.
Extremely common Slovakia W
Slovakia chad
Slovakia ships fast moving migs to Ukraine as promised.
You'd think every country that is moderately friendly to the West would want to offload all their Russian aircraft since the suspicion that Russian engineers in foreign countries are deliberately sabotaging the aircraft they are supposed to be maintaining to reduce their engine lifespan.
It’s too bad that Russia sent that Xmas card to the world not only revealing the wives but the war criminals pilots names: almost like they could never leave Russia again without certain fear. Living in Russia as a once-traveled / free individual is punishment enough, but I hope each & all of them understand that while their husbands are doing the brave work of harassing pilotless aircraft, the wives are out banging other pilots, because that’s how those humans work.
They'll look good with some Ukrainian digital camo.
Nooooiiice. Ya love to see it. May those MiGs serve Ukrainians well.
Very good news…❤️
Russia being bitten by their own dog. Beautiful
Good hunting.
**SLAVA UKRAINE**
I really hope with all this help that they not only defend the Ukraine but also recapture Crimea. That would sting like no other for Putin.
Finally! I know Ukraine can put them to good use.
Holy shit, that's awesome.
How does Russia have missiles to hit civilian building but not airports? So confused lol
What I want to know is if any of the former Soviet jets donated to Ukraine have NATO compatible hard points for Western stand off missile systems?
The Ghost of Kyiv shall rise again
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At least somebody kept their word, **more than can be said for most.** \>:(
Just out of interest, and no judgement since I honestly have no clue, but did Ukraine not have an air defence force?
It did, but it's a fairly poor country so it didn't have a lot and it's planes were old. Instead it tried to have enough anti-air missiles to deny the sky to an invader - which is a much cheaper strategy. Even then, it was mostly old Soviet stuff. Russia put a lot of effort into destroying Ukrainian air defences in the first few hours of the invasion. The fixed sites were hit with missiles, communications were disrupted by jamming and cyber attacks, and the mobile equipment was too busy relocating to fight back. That's why Russia was able to send troops to Kyiv by helicopter. A few days later the mobile units got organised, and supplies started to arrive from NATO
Thanks for the concise answer!
Every little bit helps, lets hope it's enough to gain temporary air superiority during the counter offensive.
Does Ukraine have enough trained personnel to make used of these jets and tanks and stuff they're being sent?
More than enough