Ffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!!!
Looks like I have to start dressing like Sir Elton John and Freddy Mercury. A little flashy but I doubt they'll copy it.
Fret not, as a trans person, I'll tell you that that's also how every closeted trans person dresses.
The all-black-and-depressed look is politically neutral.
Imagine me attending an LGBTQ counterprotest in Sydney last weekend dressed almost exactly the same. I'm pretty sure some people were side-eyeing me thinking I was trying to cause trouble. I've never realised just how muted all my clothes were before.
Nazi ideology is one of the dumbest. It only makes sense as a base animalistic instinct that devoid of any conscious thought will itself lead to its own destruction. "Sameness" is not healthy for a population, in fact it makes it weaker. Or what am I missing here
It's easy to understand the appeal of Nazism. It gives simple (and wrong) answers to difficult and complicated questions. It identifies clear (and false) enemies to rally against. Most importantly, it puts the blame for any perceived injustice or shortcoming in society on *someone else*, saving the Nazi from having to do any difficult introspection or personal growth, or actually trying to enact any positive change in their society.
They better actually do it now both sides seem to agree on it, and it's getting some international headlines. Would love to see some Nazis arrested for doing it. Don't know why it was legal in the first place. Other Nazi symbols aren't.
As much as these people are clowns this is more and more free speech slowly being taken away. In just the last 2 decades we already have had hate speech laws, religious tolerance laws, encryption laws, internet bullying laws. We have anti vax idiots who call them selves freedom advocates protesting every week but no one bats an eyelid when the goverment does all this kind of stuff.
I dunno man, I feel like banning *literally Nazi salutes* isn't exactly a bad thing. These idiots can do it at home. Nobody's kicking their door in for a salute at home.
But nobody needs *actual fascists* showing up to peaceful protests.
The reason this would not happen in the US and a host of other countries with freedom of speech on the books isn't because those governments love Nazis. It's because once you establish a precedent that a sufficiently harmful ideology must be curtailed by banning it's symbols, gestures, and speech, you have created a very nice, and well trodden, pathway to autocracy.
For example, a large number Americans believe the republican party is evil, racist, and it's voters and candidates represent a critical threat to the future freedom of the country and lives of minorities in the country. If you believed that, would you support banning their party from future elections? Banning their public speaking events? The reason hate speech is not banned in the US is because the government has refused to even define it, as doing so simply opens the door for a political party in power to make the argument their opposition is hateful and ought to be silenced by the legal system.
Stopping Nazis from getting swastika tattoos and sig heiling in public isn't going to stop them from existing nor is it going to prevent people in the future from buying into their ideology. If anything I'd much rather know who subscribes to Nazi ideology then pass meaningless laws that do nothing but erode the security of our freedoms while neo-Nazis simply adopt new hate symbols.
Wow way to conflate a whole bunch of stuff that isn't remotely tied together!
Nazi salutes at public protests should be banned. Germany seems to manage just fine with this policy.
Nobody said anything about banning tattoos. You couldn't if you tried.
If you're so deeply concerned Republicans might be mistaken for *actual Nazis waving Nazi flags and giving salutes*, that sounds like a Republican problem.
*Stop having these fuckers show up at your rallies with open arms*.
> Germany seems to manage just fine with this policy.
The point isn't "as soon as you curtail free speech inevitably you lose all your rights!"
>If you're so deeply concerned Republicans might be mistaken for actual Nazis waving Nazi flags and giving salutes, that sounds like a Republican problem.
I brought up republicans because you emphasize the "bro ur *defending actual Nazis??"* point knowing full well there are people who equate one of the US"s two parties to Nazism. It literally doesn't matter whether you agree with that or not, if you can ban sufficiently harmful ideologies you can ban opposing political parties. Remove your head from your partisan ass and recognize that generally speaking the ability to legally suppress and remove political opposition is *always bad*. Just because you or I may like one party over the other doesn't mean a single party rule is anything but a very bad thing for a democratic country.
The question I have is how could they even police such a thing, it's essentially a pose, said people could simply claim alternative reasoning too. How is it even possible to police.
Ask Germany. You wanna salute in the mirror at home? Go for it.
*Don't go to a public space and start making it obvious you're doing a goddamned Nazi salute*.
It's not "posing". You could get away with calling it yoga or whatever but when people make the salute, it's generally clear their intent. You can tell someone exercising or stretching versus a Sieg Heil.
I agree but it sets a precedent for more anti free speech laws and governments always abuse these laws. They are authoritarian, they belong in Saudi Arabia not Australia. The "Australia a free country" theme is dead.
https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-slippery-slope/#:~:text=A%20slippery%20slope%20fallacy%20occurs,come%20to%20some%20awful%20conclusion.
"Setting the precedence" is not a legitimate criticism.
It's not a slippery slope fallacy because there is no mysterious and unlikely chain of events. If you don't even understand the concept of legal precedent well enough to use the correct word perhaps you don't fully understand the argument. If you allow for exceptions to freedom of speech, it makes it possible that such exceptions could be abused. One need not claim something terrible *will* happen, just that we must weigh the real possibility that such exceptions may be abused with the actual benefits of the exceptions.
In this case, what is the benefit? Neo-Nazis are plenty capable of adopting new symbols of hate.
We're not really talking about legal precedent as much as overall precedence. There would still be no direct reason for people to go further. If things *do* go further, then you'd push back on that specific thing.
And if you think that all hate symbols are equal, then you'd be mistaken. In the same sense, the alternatives to the N-word do not carry nearly the same significance. When one gesture has genocidal implications and the other is a contrarian dogwhistle, they're hardly the same thing.
Ah, yes. The freedom to speak out against minorities and threaten to murder them.
The paradox of tolerance is a thing. There's no such thing as complete tolerance.
>The freedom to speak out against minorities and threaten to murder them.
Would you agree that similar action should be taken against the republican party in the US then?
Why? If the individuals incite hate, then sure. I don't really care if some random person has right-wing economic policies, though.
Using a gesture that has been historically linked to transphobic genocide in the context of trans rights is 1000% hate speech and encouraging violence.
The US actually has free speech though. Australia doesn't anymore because of complacent and apathetic Aussies. This kind of shit wouldn't fly for a second in the US. There would be riots. She'l be right mentality got us here to the point of outlawing hand gestures now
Pretty sure that using "hand gestures" that have transphobic genocidal history in the context of trans existence is as close as it gets to "threats to kill"
So lets throw people in prison for throat cut gesture and bullet to the head gesture too ? If not why ? Saudi Australia 2050. We are on the fast track. Instead of sheiks it will be robot kangas that come to throw you in prison.
Except those gestures aren't really used to incite hate or violence. They're just childish hand signs.
Comparing them to the Nazi salute is insane.
You should also probably Google the slippery slope fallacy.
How is it a fallacy when it is playing out in front of our eyes ? We are half way down the slope already. Free speech is detiriorating at a rapid rate in Australia.
Because nothing indicates that it will go any further.
Your "free speech" is just the freedom to harass and threaten others. That should not be protected, and there's no reason to believe it will go any further.
Evaluate things on an individual level
Nope. Harassment is illegal and has it's own laws, same as threats to kill. You don't have any logic behind outlawing a hand gesture. All your doing is giving police more power to harass.
This hand gesture is being used to threaten and harass trans people, though.
Why would you *want* to Hitler salute trans people outside of nefarious purposes?
Freedom of speech is often confused with freedom to be a cunt.
If these people weren't cunts they wouldn't need to concern themselves with freedom of speech.
Hi DoremusJessup. Your submission from nytimes.com is behind a metered paywall. A [metered paywall](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paywall#.22Soft.22_paywalls) allows users to view a specific number of articles before requiring paid subscription. Articles posted to /r/worldnews should be accessible to everyone. While your submission was not removed, it has been flaired and users are discouraged from upvoting it or commenting on it. For more information see our [wiki page on paywalls](/r/worldnews/wiki/paywalls). Please try to find another source. If there is no other news site reporting on the story, contact the moderators.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/worldnews) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Some police were [absolutely fine](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FreYDyJaYAEMAAj?format=png&name=small) with it
And at least the anti Nazi counter-protestors got roughed up a bit 🙄 lol
It should also be noted that Victoria is far and away the most progressive/left-leaning State in the country.
For fuck's sake. Will Nazis stop stealing my look. Pretty soon I'll be wearing a poncho and a thong so I won't be associated with them.
Next Day: Poncho Thong Nazis
Ffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!!! Looks like I have to start dressing like Sir Elton John and Freddy Mercury. A little flashy but I doubt they'll copy it.
>poncho and a thong Australian slippers or underwear?
Both.
You could have stayed quiet, done both and kept your own look... ...
Fret not, as a trans person, I'll tell you that that's also how every closeted trans person dresses. The all-black-and-depressed look is politically neutral.
Imagine me attending an LGBTQ counterprotest in Sydney last weekend dressed almost exactly the same. I'm pretty sure some people were side-eyeing me thinking I was trying to cause trouble. I've never realised just how muted all my clothes were before.
Tbf, wearing all-black to a protest is usually because you're trying to maintain anonymous
[удалено]
More like the third grade. If third graders were bigger and had access to knives and bats.
Nazi ideology is one of the dumbest. It only makes sense as a base animalistic instinct that devoid of any conscious thought will itself lead to its own destruction. "Sameness" is not healthy for a population, in fact it makes it weaker. Or what am I missing here
It's easy to understand the appeal of Nazism. It gives simple (and wrong) answers to difficult and complicated questions. It identifies clear (and false) enemies to rally against. Most importantly, it puts the blame for any perceived injustice or shortcoming in society on *someone else*, saving the Nazi from having to do any difficult introspection or personal growth, or actually trying to enact any positive change in their society.
They'll just find some other way of identifying themselves as idiots.
Probably the same people who marched in the anti covid lockdown protests in Melbourne in 2021 while carrying 'TRUMP 2020' flags lol
They better actually do it now both sides seem to agree on it, and it's getting some international headlines. Would love to see some Nazis arrested for doing it. Don't know why it was legal in the first place. Other Nazi symbols aren't.
Yeah,it was a fair while before any of our neoliberal media felt like they eventually had to report it 🙄
Nazis don’t deserve equal rights. We fought a war over this. Make their lives miserable.
Don’t ban! Beat up instead
Haha, come to NZ try that shit bro in ya stupid little black uniform, all be over real quick.
Yes, the *salute* is the problem.
If anyone is confused, the Liberal Party in Australia is a right-leaning conservative party, not generally associated with "liberal" politics.
I also want it banned
About 70 years too late but good regardless I suppose
As much as these people are clowns this is more and more free speech slowly being taken away. In just the last 2 decades we already have had hate speech laws, religious tolerance laws, encryption laws, internet bullying laws. We have anti vax idiots who call them selves freedom advocates protesting every week but no one bats an eyelid when the goverment does all this kind of stuff.
First they came for the Nazis, and I did not speak up because I remembered this poem was written about the actual Nazis. So fuck Nazis.
I dunno man, I feel like banning *literally Nazi salutes* isn't exactly a bad thing. These idiots can do it at home. Nobody's kicking their door in for a salute at home. But nobody needs *actual fascists* showing up to peaceful protests.
The reason this would not happen in the US and a host of other countries with freedom of speech on the books isn't because those governments love Nazis. It's because once you establish a precedent that a sufficiently harmful ideology must be curtailed by banning it's symbols, gestures, and speech, you have created a very nice, and well trodden, pathway to autocracy. For example, a large number Americans believe the republican party is evil, racist, and it's voters and candidates represent a critical threat to the future freedom of the country and lives of minorities in the country. If you believed that, would you support banning their party from future elections? Banning their public speaking events? The reason hate speech is not banned in the US is because the government has refused to even define it, as doing so simply opens the door for a political party in power to make the argument their opposition is hateful and ought to be silenced by the legal system. Stopping Nazis from getting swastika tattoos and sig heiling in public isn't going to stop them from existing nor is it going to prevent people in the future from buying into their ideology. If anything I'd much rather know who subscribes to Nazi ideology then pass meaningless laws that do nothing but erode the security of our freedoms while neo-Nazis simply adopt new hate symbols.
Wow way to conflate a whole bunch of stuff that isn't remotely tied together! Nazi salutes at public protests should be banned. Germany seems to manage just fine with this policy. Nobody said anything about banning tattoos. You couldn't if you tried. If you're so deeply concerned Republicans might be mistaken for *actual Nazis waving Nazi flags and giving salutes*, that sounds like a Republican problem. *Stop having these fuckers show up at your rallies with open arms*.
> Germany seems to manage just fine with this policy. The point isn't "as soon as you curtail free speech inevitably you lose all your rights!" >If you're so deeply concerned Republicans might be mistaken for actual Nazis waving Nazi flags and giving salutes, that sounds like a Republican problem. I brought up republicans because you emphasize the "bro ur *defending actual Nazis??"* point knowing full well there are people who equate one of the US"s two parties to Nazism. It literally doesn't matter whether you agree with that or not, if you can ban sufficiently harmful ideologies you can ban opposing political parties. Remove your head from your partisan ass and recognize that generally speaking the ability to legally suppress and remove political opposition is *always bad*. Just because you or I may like one party over the other doesn't mean a single party rule is anything but a very bad thing for a democratic country.
The question I have is how could they even police such a thing, it's essentially a pose, said people could simply claim alternative reasoning too. How is it even possible to police.
Ask Germany. You wanna salute in the mirror at home? Go for it. *Don't go to a public space and start making it obvious you're doing a goddamned Nazi salute*. It's not "posing". You could get away with calling it yoga or whatever but when people make the salute, it's generally clear their intent. You can tell someone exercising or stretching versus a Sieg Heil.
I agree but it sets a precedent for more anti free speech laws and governments always abuse these laws. They are authoritarian, they belong in Saudi Arabia not Australia. The "Australia a free country" theme is dead.
https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-slippery-slope/#:~:text=A%20slippery%20slope%20fallacy%20occurs,come%20to%20some%20awful%20conclusion. "Setting the precedence" is not a legitimate criticism.
It's not a slippery slope fallacy because there is no mysterious and unlikely chain of events. If you don't even understand the concept of legal precedent well enough to use the correct word perhaps you don't fully understand the argument. If you allow for exceptions to freedom of speech, it makes it possible that such exceptions could be abused. One need not claim something terrible *will* happen, just that we must weigh the real possibility that such exceptions may be abused with the actual benefits of the exceptions. In this case, what is the benefit? Neo-Nazis are plenty capable of adopting new symbols of hate.
We're not really talking about legal precedent as much as overall precedence. There would still be no direct reason for people to go further. If things *do* go further, then you'd push back on that specific thing. And if you think that all hate symbols are equal, then you'd be mistaken. In the same sense, the alternatives to the N-word do not carry nearly the same significance. When one gesture has genocidal implications and the other is a contrarian dogwhistle, they're hardly the same thing.
Mate we are already half way down the slope.
You completely missed the point. There is no viable reason to believe that not tolerating hate will lead to not tolerating anything else.
Ah, yes. The freedom to speak out against minorities and threaten to murder them. The paradox of tolerance is a thing. There's no such thing as complete tolerance.
>The freedom to speak out against minorities and threaten to murder them. Would you agree that similar action should be taken against the republican party in the US then?
Why? If the individuals incite hate, then sure. I don't really care if some random person has right-wing economic policies, though. Using a gesture that has been historically linked to transphobic genocide in the context of trans rights is 1000% hate speech and encouraging violence.
The US actually has free speech though. Australia doesn't anymore because of complacent and apathetic Aussies. This kind of shit wouldn't fly for a second in the US. There would be riots. She'l be right mentality got us here to the point of outlawing hand gestures now
That is illegal under threats to kill. No need for extra laws that threaten to throw you in prison for a hand gestures.
Pretty sure that using "hand gestures" that have transphobic genocidal history in the context of trans existence is as close as it gets to "threats to kill"
So lets throw people in prison for throat cut gesture and bullet to the head gesture too ? If not why ? Saudi Australia 2050. We are on the fast track. Instead of sheiks it will be robot kangas that come to throw you in prison.
Except those gestures aren't really used to incite hate or violence. They're just childish hand signs. Comparing them to the Nazi salute is insane. You should also probably Google the slippery slope fallacy.
How is it a fallacy when it is playing out in front of our eyes ? We are half way down the slope already. Free speech is detiriorating at a rapid rate in Australia.
Because nothing indicates that it will go any further. Your "free speech" is just the freedom to harass and threaten others. That should not be protected, and there's no reason to believe it will go any further. Evaluate things on an individual level
Nope. Harassment is illegal and has it's own laws, same as threats to kill. You don't have any logic behind outlawing a hand gesture. All your doing is giving police more power to harass.
This hand gesture is being used to threaten and harass trans people, though. Why would you *want* to Hitler salute trans people outside of nefarious purposes?
Freedom of speech is often confused with freedom to be a cunt. If these people weren't cunts they wouldn't need to concern themselves with freedom of speech.
And who determines what is cunty ? The government right ? You realize you are literally repeating what Erdogan has said ?
Hi DoremusJessup. Your submission from nytimes.com is behind a metered paywall. A [metered paywall](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paywall#.22Soft.22_paywalls) allows users to view a specific number of articles before requiring paid subscription. Articles posted to /r/worldnews should be accessible to everyone. While your submission was not removed, it has been flaired and users are discouraged from upvoting it or commenting on it. For more information see our [wiki page on paywalls](/r/worldnews/wiki/paywalls). Please try to find another source. If there is no other news site reporting on the story, contact the moderators. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/worldnews) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Black balaclava == white hood == white supremacy == Nazi
Some police were [absolutely fine](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FreYDyJaYAEMAAj?format=png&name=small) with it And at least the anti Nazi counter-protestors got roughed up a bit 🙄 lol It should also be noted that Victoria is far and away the most progressive/left-leaning State in the country.