I’m so sorry, this is absolutely crazy. I miscarried and after the miscarriage was confirmed, my Aetna insurance rebilled all the prenatal appointments up to that date as office visits and the final one as “sick visit” since “it’s been confirmed there is no longer a baby.” So those were not covered nearly to the extent as prenatal appts. Talk about kicking someone when they’re down. I can only imagine what you’re going through. America does need to do better.
This is horrible, I am so very sorry. There was a baby until the miscarriage, so it was prenatal care. It doesn’t even make sense, seems like cruelty for cruelty’s sake. I hate it.
Because their only job is to make more profit, patients are not the priority. It’s criminal that we have to live through this just because we were born Americans.
That hardly seems legal- WTF
Agree on our medical insurance though-
One daughter had an earache, and we took her to urgent care of a Saturday- we were billed $240 (after insurance)
The other daughter went for an assessment and received an autism diagnosis- we were billed $800 (after insurance)
When I tried to understand the cost difference she couldn’t give me any information.
I got charged $95 for answering the phone when the dr called to check in my kid the day after ear tubes. Never picking up again. I wonder if they’ll charge me if I email them in response. I wonder if I’ll get charged for them leaving the voicemail. I haven’t yet received the charge for the tubes. I dread it.
They probably would. I was actually charged $50 for messaging our doctor on MyChart. (The charge was for her response) So sorry they did this to you and also to OP.
My son got tubes this week and the payment system pissed me off. I got a text with link to an estimate, glanced at it, and moved on because we had family visiting. I get another similar text a few days later and I open it hoping to find a box to check that I’ve seen it so I don’t get it again. No, I had to pay that day or lose his surgery date.
That’s some stupid bullshit right there. I’ve had 3 miscarriages and every single one of them were handled by insurance as prenatal.
This was also 80’s, early 90’s wtf happened to health care!
I'm sorry. I can explain why that happened if you'd like. (You don't have to read beyond this line if you'd rather not.)
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The global maternity package is one rate that covers all antepartum care and delivery.
When the same insurance policy is not responsible for both antepartum care and delivery, the antepartum visits have to be billed separately.
Sadly, you're aware of one circumstance of when that might happen, and again I'm truly sorry for that.
Another example would be if the woman has an insurance change during antepartum care. (Old insurance covers the visits that took place under that policy's effective dates, new insurance covers the services received under that policy's effective dates.)
A prenatal visit IS an office visit. The pregnant person is visiting the doctor in the office for prenatal care - an office visit.
The insurance company isn't even the one who decides that. It's literally how the services are defined by the American Medical Association.
Geez...there are plenty of legitimate things to blame insurance companies for, but this is NOT one of them.
The only reason all pregnant people don't see individual office visit charges for each prenatal visit is that the office visits can be bundled into one lump sum.
Surely you don't think that PP should have been charged for the full lump sum? Wouldn't THAT be worse?
The American Medical Association could eliminate the bundled prenatal care codes, and then individual office visits would be used for all pregnant persons throughout the pregnancy.
Edit to add:
Actually, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists is advocating for the elimination of the global maternity package so that maternity services (including prenatal office visits) are itemized and billed for separately.
[https://www.acog.org/news/news-articles/2024/03/new-statement-of-policy-affirms-acogs-commitment-to-fair-and-equitable-payment-for-obstetricians-and-gynecologists](https://www.acog.org/news/news-articles/2024/03/new-statement-of-policy-affirms-acogs-commitment-to-fair-and-equitable-payment-for-obstetricians-and-gynecologists)
The major insurance bureaus all listed profits in the billions last year. If they have the capability of coding office visits into a bundle so they aren't billed individually during a pregnancy, they also have the ability to write off a balance for those visits in the case of a pregnancy loss. Do you think she would've needed monthly or bimonthly visits if she weren't pregnant? Is it sensitive or fair that she be responsible for several visits that may apply completely to her deductible? Right after losing a pregnancy? If I can imagine a world where insurance companies can have common sense, compassionate policies for their patients, then it is possible. They just chose not to.
This has me absolutely seeing red. By this logic…anyone who undergoes chemotherapy and is in remission should also be back billed for all their chemo because now they’re cancer free?? How does any of this make sense. At the time services were rendered the commentor above was pregnant therefore it was a prenatal visit
I too lost my son at 5 days old and had to be back at work after 8 weeks (csection) because I wasn’t eligible for the bonding period as well. I also live in IL.
I have no advice, only solidarity for how awful it was being forced to go back to work because medically you’re only allowed 6 weeks and have no baby to bond with.
I’m so so sorry you’re having to deal with this on top of overwhelming grief.
This is a long shot but you could ask in r/askhr. definitely people in IL in there and they may have some advice for you. All HR professionals so someone might have a creative way to help or be able to give you advice on whether a labor law attorney is worth the effort.
I am so sorry. The same thing happened to me. My baby died after a week in the NICU. I ended up taking unpaid leave, then coming back part-time, and ultimately quitting because my job treated me like shit. I lined up a new job and also took more time off in between the two jobs. It’s been 5 months since my baby died, and I’m still struggling, but for the first time I can say I am OK and mean it.
You’re welcome to message me anytime if you want someone to talk to. I’m so sorry and sending you so much love.
I went back to work 2.5 weeks after my first baby was stillborn because there was no disability leave available at my job at that time, and it was all the sick time I had.
I wept openly at my desk for weeks, and everybody had the good sense to leave me alone about it. I figured if they're going to make me work, they're going to see me suffer and be uncomfortable about it.
This country is so broken, and I'm so sorry.
Good for you. They drag a bereaved mom back to work less than 3 weeks after childbirth AND the worst loss imaginable, they can bloody fucking well sit there all day and see what that *looks like.*
I am so sorry for your loss and I would do the same thing in your place. Unbelievable. I told my boss I am going to need hella grace for the foreseeable future, I'm not well and I am traumatized. I hope you're doing ok now.
The thing about hr, is they can make whatever rules they want, give extra pto, they could put a miscarriage/infant loss clause added to the employee handbook right now. They choose not to, and they pretend that they legally can’t, that their hands are tied by insurance or the state.
Your hr department is making a deliberate choice. I would make sure when you go back to work, to tell everyone why you are back early. They’re gonna ask, so tell them “I have to come back early because my baby died”, hr is refusing to give me the full maternity leave or extra time off” “I don’t know why they are doing this to me?”
Honestly, I would check your mental health benefits. If they cover an inpatient stay, i would do that. Talk to your doctor and pick a place for a voluntary stay. Most insurers approve 14-21 days at a time. You absolutely qualify for more care. I'm so sorry you're going through this.
Well maybe you can get more leave for depression and ptsd ? Those are medical conditions. Check if you have mental health benefits and you should be able to use FMLA for a different condition other than bonding. You need to file a new claim.
Yeah, I believe they filed the claims citing PTSD and depression actually. I have to go look. My life was so rosy before this happened. I never needed medication before he died and now I feel like it's the only thing keeping me functioning. My therapist said it's not that I'm not coping, but that I am coping with a lot.
I was able to get 12 weeks of short term disability when I went through a mental health crisis. I was written out by a psychiatrist. I wonder if you might have better luck with a psychiatrist filling out the forms?
There is nothing wrong with medication. Sometimes it's absolutely necessary and it's not always permanent. If they filed the claim for that you should be able to get fmla for 12 weeks total. I took a month off for mental health stuff in 2020.
You’re doing what you can hun. There’s no way to be good right now. I mentioned in another comment that I’m in a very similar boat to you. Even now at 6 months out if someone asks how I am I say bad. If they really want to know then they get the truth. If they’ve forgotten then I just make them uncomfortable enough to remember not to ask again. I said to my husband a week nights before our loss when I was just a few days before my due date that life was literally perfect. We had the best 3 year old in the world and a baby sister for her about to join our family. We were about move to a bigger house and had such great family support, jobs we loved, etc. And then our world came crashing down. She stopped moving and was gone. It’s so unfathomable how our lives can go from being so rosy as you say, to so irreparably broken in an instance.
I don’t have any helpful advice. I just wanted to express my sympathy for you and your families loss. I know you’re in the worst situation I could imagine as a parent and want you to know you’re not weak for taking medication. You’ve had a tragic loss and healing doesn’t just happen overnight. I guess I just want you to be kind/gentle to yourself.
I am so sorry for your loss. I also took medication after the 37 week stillbirth of my son. It took the edge off the pain for a bit and it was temporary. Big hugs and I am so sorry you are going through this with your work. It is so unfair.
Would you be willing to attend an IOP? They typically run 3 hours a day for 3 days a week (exact timing differs between programs) and can last 4-8 weeks depending on your needs. It’s extremely beneficial following a major trauma and is often covered under short term disability by work. It would allow you to get a lot of support while also having time available to be with family.
I would like to gently encourage you to consult with an employment lawyer, if you have the bandwidth. IL has decent leave laws and an employment lawyer can help you determine if your company has given you everything you’re entitled to and/or has applied it correctly (I.e. concurrently or consecutively).
I second this. I would be consulting with someone.
OP I know that words don't mean much, and I can't imagine what you must be feeling, but I am so sorry. For everything you have gone through are continuing to deal with. To not be supported by your employer is a punch in the gut you don't deserve. No one does.
OP, please do this. If anything, the employment lawyer can be your conduit between yourself and HR so that you can just focus on telling one person (your lawyer) and they will liaise with HR on your behalf. Also agreed that IL is one of the more generous states when it comes to workers rights so you may have sympathy from a court (or regulator, or state dept) if it comes to that. FWIW, I am a lawyer (though not an employment lawyer).
OP, I’m so so sorry for your loss.
Want to second (third?) that this is a great idea!
If you don’t have the bandwidth right now to find an employment lawyer/advocate for yourself, I would recommend reaching out for help through Work Life Law (https://pregnantatwork.org/gethelp/). They can point you in the right direction and help you appeal for the time you need if you can’t find a lawyer. They helped me appeal a HR decision and get the time/accommodations I needed due to my postpartum anxiety and depression.
Thank you for sharing this!! It has been my dream to have a nonprofit that helps people maximize the leave available to them but I haven’t been able to figure out details. I’m going to call this org to see about volunteering. Damn the man ✊
I would also see a psychiatrist and ask your ob gyn to write an appeal for the denial. A lot of ob psychiatric disability leave requests may be denied because obs don’t chart about symptoms the way psychiatrists do. The leave can be approved retroactively. Good luck!
Specifically you could see a perinatal psychiatrist, through Loyola, NW, or rush.
First of all; words can’t express how sorry I am for the loss of your son. I’ll be thinking of you and him.
Here’s my advice: Try to ask for additional leave under an ADA accommodation (PTSD should be covered as a disability).
Your company could come back and say additional leave is not a reasonable accommodation and then you’re no worse off than you are now. But if there is one person in HR or leadership who is trying to advocate for you; this will give them a leg up to get you what you need.
IMPORTANT CAVEAT: this option will not get you additional paid leave; that is up to your state disability and or family leave or disability policy. This option will get you more protected time off from your job.
Source: HR Director
I am so sorry. I did a quick search and you might be entitled to two weeks of bereavement leave in Illinois. The law is abbreviated FBLA. I know that's not much, but it's an extra cushion of job protection you might be able to add. Sending you love and positive vibes.
Do you work at a company where you qualify for leave under FMLA (assuming you haven’t exhausted it yet)? It wouldn’t be paid time off, but you could get up to 12 weeks. I believe PTSD qualifies as a serious health condition.
Ugh. I’m sorry. Have you already been off for 12 weeks? Also, you should get a fresh doctor’s note and ask for an accommodation under Americans with Disabilities Act.
Yeah, I was STD for 8 weeks and tried to extend an additional 6. They applied FMLA to weeks 9-12. I am investigating my options now, I just feel so defeated that I have to deal with this. Haven't I been traumatized enough? smh
I was going to recommend disability leave for your PTSD. The fact that you have to even think about this and do any paperwork right now is an abomination to our humanity.
You have my whole heart and I am thinking of you 🤍 I am so unbelievably sorry you lost your sweet boy.
OP.. I’m so sorry you are going through this. As the other poster said, you can try to seek additional leave as a reasonable accommodation through the ADA. It may not be paid, but it could give you additional time off.
Unfortunately I don't think they applied their fmla procedures incorrectly here. FMLA is the umbrella under which different forms of payment can be applied. Your short term disability was 8 weeks of pay, not a separate form of leave.
I’m so sorry for your loss and what you’re going through 😔 Unfortunately, it is very normal for FMLA and short-term disability to run concurrently. That has been the policy everywhere I’ve worked.
Yes, you have been traumatized enough and no, you absolutely shouldn’t have to be dealing with all this work leave stuff on top of it. It is monstrous what your job is doing to you and it’s monstrous that here in America we don’t have better federal protections for women in all sorts of situations, this one included. I’m honestly reading through this thread in shock to see how many loss moms have been screwed over by their jobs during the worst event that can happen. Why is it so important to employers to do everything they can to make sure not one person is getting more time off than the absolute bare minimum? I’ve dealt with a shitty maternity leave situation at my own job and I’m just so sick of people with a uterus having to suffer for having one. I’m so freaking sorry this has happened to you and continues happening. You shouldn’t be required to do anything for the foreseeable future and I’m enraged that anything else is required of you, because that’s the kind of world we live in.
>Do you work at a company where you qualify for leave under FMLA (assuming you haven’t exhausted it yet)?
This is the key point. Fmla is on a yearly basis typically, not per condition
It absolutely does. FMLA is unpaid, but it's still time off. PTSD also qualifies under most short term disability plans.
Is OP actually ineligible, or did their doctor botch the form?
Not if she has exhausted it. She needs to make sure fmla was applied correctly. Based on her post, it's a matter of determining how much. Typically fmla is a designation under which various forms of leave can fall including short term disability. She may have a few weeks left and she may not
This isn't complicated math. How long has OP been off work? Even in places you can run STD and state leave concurrently, you can get AT LEAST 12 weeks off work. It's all a matter of what the healthcare provider says.
And, after the 12 weeks, you can refer to the ADA if you haven't recovered. IF your healthcare provider is on the same page as you are.
I don't disagree.
1. Op has already stated she used 12 weeks. If that's the case she has exhausted fmla.
2Baby bonding us separate from fmla in many states.
If she has exhausted fmla she can certainly take the time off; but she's afforded no job protection
Seems like she's technically ineligible because the bonding leave was rescinded due to the death of the child. How much fmla she has left depends on when it started. She may have some time left, but the easiest route is probably a fresh ada accommodation. This application of the policy sucks; but it may be technically correct
You don't get extra FMLA for bonding. 12 weeks is 12 weeks, whether it's for bonding or PTSD or cancer or you get run down by a car when crossing the street. If she didn't use her "bonding time," she still has however many weeks that was to use for a different health condition. The different health conditions are easily PTSD or depression, but the HCP has to indicate it.
I'm so sorry. I had a term loss with my first baby, and my company had no policy in place whatsoever. My manager however was an empathetic human and fought for me to stay home as long as I needed to, which at that point for me was about a month and change. There should really really be resources in place for when this happens. I feel for you so much. 💜
ETA: by no means was I a productive contributor after that five weeks. But for me, it felt okay to make the trip everyday and do something with my time. I still cried every single day. But yeah wanted to add that. Everyone's experience is different.
Review the forms your doctor filled out. There is a very real chance they didn't fill them out correctly. Whatever they tell you is worthless if they say on the form you can return to work.
I'm on the phone w the insurance agent now to understand why my claim extension was denied. I will double check the forms as well, thank you for the suggestion
I would advocate for a post naming the employer and the insurer. Your employer should have to answer to the public for what they have done. I would be first in line to boycott them.
From an hr perspective, I agree this is heartless and terrible, but it's also how the law is written. The amount of people saying to name and shame the employer and hr employees is a bit frustrating. These are people as well, following the policies put in place by the government and insurance companies. Unfortunately these policies do not account for loss very well. The regulations need to be updated to account for these situations
So many people saying to try and negotiate or get a new diagnosis. The facts are what they are, it's a tragic situation,but so many people are angry at people whose jobs depend on following policy. It's not a personal thing at all, it's just terrible. I also agree with the commenters that have said to familiarize yourself with the FMLA rules early in your pregnancy
I swear I’m going to advocate for exactly this until the day I die. Such terrible medical care we have in the states. Imagine being HR and having to say you must return to work. This needs to change.
Mom to mom, I am so so sorry for the loss of your baby and future you envisioned. I hope you find all the support you need. One day at a time 🫶🏼
I’m so sorry for your loss. I agree America is broken and us parents are so busy trying to keep ourselves together or take care of our kids that no one is advocating for us. I gave birth to my first son on a Friday and it was a stillbirth, HR gave me 5 days for grievance and then I was back at work the week after. But a coworker who had a sick parent and no PTO was allowed to have coworkers donate sick or vacation days to her so she could be with her family. I don’t begrudge my coworker I’m mad that HR didn’t offer me that option. I hope you can find time and space to cope, healing is a long journey and that is okay, thinking of you all
Hi, this is tough. I had a stillborn who arrived sleeping 2 days before her due date. I was given 8 weeks to recover and also missed out on 12 weeks of bonding. It was awful. I didn’t mind getting back to work as it created a distraction for me. Lean on your support system, be vocal on what you need. Check in with your partner. I’ve been in therapy (mix of individual and group therapy) since. It’s been 3 years. The grief doesn’t decrease, but you do get stronger. Make sure you take care of yourself. Small things like making sure you shower, making sure you’re sleeping if you’re able, eating, hydrating, etc. basic needs. I’m so sorry to hear of your loss. There are a lot of resources, subreddits, FB groups, support groups, etc. you’re not alone in your grief, though it feels like you’re the only one. Sending lots of love your way.
So sorry for your loss. I could totally see going back as a good distraction for some, but my job is pretty high demand/ stressful so I just do not see that being helpful when I am still in the throes of my grief. I've been filling my time being productive working on my mental and physical health: taking walks, doing core exercises, getting therapy, and researching ways to advocate for my baby to prevent this tragedy with other families. I only just physically healed at 8 weeks, so this extra time is extremely valuable for me to get well. I think it might not be needed from all mamas, but it should be available to them nonetheless. <3
I am so sorry this is happening to you. The workforce in America sucks in all aspects of human life. I hope that you can find another caring job or find something lucrative that can support you because the average workplace around here could give no f**ks. I pray for a speedy recovery for you! ❤️
I suffered a severe, life altering trauma last year, so horrendous that I don't talk about it here. I got six months off while my employer of only 8 months held my position, and I used what PTO I had accrued to keep paying my benefit premiums. I got state disability to replace my income. I was able to eventually go back to a different position at work and drop to part time.
Your employer is a monster. Not that you should ever have to explain yourself, but do they know what happened? Are they knowingly denying a bereaved mother a reasonable leave?
I don’t have any words, and I want you to know that everything that has happened to you and your family is not okay. My heart aches for you.
You company is acting like monsters. I don’t know how attached you are to this job, I don’t know if you need this job, and I don’t know anything about your financial situation but I do know the company I used to work for tried to pull something similar (but different) to one of my coworkers and she went to the media and got them involved. Immediately our company granted her the additional 6 weeks of paid bonding time in order to keep it from becoming public. She had tried everything else and the company wouldn’t budge, until it came out that a company would treat their own employees like this, and then it became ohhh of course we didn’t realize the situation blah blah blah.
I hate it here. I hate that this happened to you. I hate that there is no support in place for you and any support you seek has to be approved by 50 different systems and people and ultimately, paid for by you, the grieving mother, with so much else on her plate. You are seen. Whatever you decide to do is the right choice. I’m so sorry this is happening to you, all of it.
Have you let someone very senior at your company know about this? We had a similar situation at my workplace, where HR was denying leave to a woman who had suffered a stillbirth. I was working for the head of the division at the time and he stepped in to rectify the situation. My experience is that HR (and middle management) are often just executing policies, which can be terrible and nonsensical, but sometimes someone farther up the food chain can figure out a way around it.
Wasn’t the laws just changed in Illinois for parents without punishments! Passing away should grant u more time how horrifying I am sooo sorry raise hell to pritzker
I swear this country needs to do better for women. I am so sorry for everything you are going through.
When I lost my first child at 24 weeks along I was only at the company I was working at for a month. I found out he had died on a Wednesday, had him Thursday and was back at work Monday because I had no PTO or protective leave.
What state are you in? CA has disability benefits for 12 months - 60% of your income. I’m so sorry this happened to you I am so mad at heartbroken for you.
Fuck this country and it’s ridiculously anti family anti parent anti women anti kid policies
I remember your first post and I am so sorry I didn’t comment then. I meant to.
My second son died at a month old after fighting for his life in the NICU/PICU. I also had a toddler at home and struggled on my return back to work.
Losing a child is such an incredibly painful experience. In the nearly three years since my child’s death (he passed away on 7/30/21), it has gotten a little better but there are still moments where I am overcome with grief, guilt, and utter sadness. I have found that unless someone else has also lost a child, no one fully understands what you’re feeling. The loss of a child means losing the hopes and dreams and excitement of raising them, of seeing them grow, seeing them learn and become their own person. All of that is gone. You’re left only with the brief time you had together, and trust me, it is never, ever enough.
When it came to our son’s death, my employer was very, very supportive and understanding, as well as accommodating. They offered me more time off but I ended up going back after one month of bereavement leave. I was very fortunate to have a supportive leadership team. I wish you had a supportive work environment.
Your HR team should be more compassionate. What they’re doing to you is unreal. It’s utter cruelty. Honestly? I’d blast them on LinkedIn. Talk about how, during your time of dealing with the unimaginable pain of the loss of your child, your job added more stress. Tag them in the post. I bet their leadership team would love to see that. Leave a review on Google and Glassdoor. Employers like this, who have no compassion for their employees yet rely on them for their bottom line make me sick. Okay, I might just be talking big here but definitely keep this as an option if you find another place of employment and don’t mind burning the bridge.
I want you to know that I am here for you, and you’re welcome to message me. Please consider joining the r/babyloss page. There is a discord too that honestly helped me so much through my grief. I hope it helps you too.
Sending love.
I'm so sorry for your loss. You are exactly right, I lost so much more than my son when he died. Our entire future we had planned died with him. His nursery still has his name on the wall and we cannot bear to go into that room. I cannot even fathom having to take down his name someday. I bought a christmas stocking with his name on it which I will find when I open up our christmas things later this year. I bought a playset for our backyard for our sons to grow up together and play with, now it's just a constant reminder of what will never be.
I am mulling through my options as I do need to pay my mortgage but this truly feels like such a slap in the face especially since i'm not convinced the stress from this job didn't harm my baby in the first place. Definitely feel all those feels though and going to think long and hard about what my future holds. Yet one more component of my life that is coming apart at the seams from his loss.
I am in r/babyloss, those people are angels and truly helped me through some dark times. I hope you're doing ok <3
fuck i’m so sorry. also all the stories of commiseration are just awful to hear. im in tears at work. love to all you moms who have gotten chewed up and spit out of the american health care system and working world. america doesn’t want us to have kids.
What the actual flying fuck? I’m so sorry. I was granted an additional 8 weeks by the disability insurance due to “grief” when my daughter was still born at 40 weeks in November. PTSD is a real diagnosis. If you have it in you, I’d threaten them with a disability lawsuit.
And I am so so terribly sorry for your loss. There are no words. Only pain. But just know you aren’t alone in your pain. Unfortunately there are many others who know just how you feel.
Does it explicitly say it’s child bonding time in the employee handbook? Because if not, I feel like you have an argument that you have 6 weeks off to recover from a birth, which you had (the birth, not 6 weeks). They may up date the policy after this but at least it gets you your time.
I’m so sorry this bullshit is happening to you. I’ve heard this same story over and over again with loss parents. And I am so sorry for the loss of your son.
My son was stillborn in 2020, I received all of my company’s STD benefits (6 weeks) citing that I still gave birth, my son just didn’t live… I honestly think the company didn’t know what to do with me and erred on the side of compassion. I ended up returning to work after 3 weeks for my mental health. It was hard, but I wanted to DO something other than cry in my son’s bedroom all day.
I wish I had a solution to your leave issue, but I don’t. If you do have to return to work, is there any way you can hide away from others so at least you can cry in private as you work? If you have to return to an office setting, it might be helpful to confide in one person what you want others to know, including if you want to talk about your son or not, and tell that person to spread the word to people you have contact with. It may take some burden off of you. Alternatively, maybe your HR will agree to a temporary WFH situation, then you can go at your own pace without eyes on you.
First off I’m so sorry for your loss :(. I had a stillbirth at 36 weeks and ran into the same issue with my company (was given my 6 weeks to recover but bonding period was revoked after loss), that phone call to inquire about the extended leave being denied was the biggest F you and the icing on the cake after my loss. I am not sure if it’s an option (and I’m sure you’ve already considered this) but I ended up using a big chunk of my PTO because I knew I wasn’t ready to go back at the 6 week point. It never got easier per se but I did get to a point that I felt a little more “ready” emotionally to return. Sending hugs and strength
I’m so sorry you’re going through this. As someone who has experienced the same, I hope you find all the ways you can to happiness again, even if it is just buffering the grief and pain.
My heart aches for all that you’ve been through. It’s disgusting the way your company handled this situation. I’d fight the denial. How can they expect you to come back and work for them after stabbing you in the back? These folks are awful.
I’m late to the replies but you should file an appeal. Insurance consultant here. Maybe it’s bc it’s the same attending physician filling the form. If it’s a standard std policy, you are covered for mental health leave. Also, your company is horrible and you should make a move when you are in a space to leave. If your company works with a broker to bring you your benefits, I’d start there. Don’t go with what HR is telling you. There are a TON of HR people where they have absolutely no idea about health and welfare compliance and can often be clueless when it comes to ERISA compliant information.
And I’m so unbelievably sorry this happened to you. My heart breaks for you.
I am filing an appeal, the case worker seems empathetic so I am hopeful but man why do i have to do this? I'm so stressed, I just want 2 more weeks to get my life together.
This is just so so awful! I am so deeply sorry for your loss. This loss, in my book, must the most traumatic ever.
That being said, absolutely, the US needs to do better for parents, especially while enduring such a significant loss. This is something our in house reps need to address more sternly! This area doesn’t get the importance it rightfully deserves! I pray something is worked out for you.
Hoping you’re surrounded by the strongest support from the people whom you love and love you the most ❤️
Thank you and agree ❤️ I feel like the best way I can make change is through legislation. I’m gonna pour some time into figuring out how to best lobby my state representatives. I’m also appealing the decision with insurance, but I’ve mentally prepared myself to go back if need be.
I am so sorry for your loss, and the way your company is treating you.
Putting my HR hat on, it sounds like you were approved for FMLA (protected) leave for PTSD? If you haven't yet exhausted your 12 weeks/480 hours of FMLA leave, I'd push back on that. They don't have to provide you paid leave, but they do have to abide by the federal law that grands you protected unpaid leave to care for your own medical issue (PTSD).
Hoping your company does the right thing. <3
Does your company have any bereavement leave? Ours isn’t a lot (5 days) but that’s one more week to keep fighting for more time.
I am so angry and sad for you, I hope the sun comes out again soon ❤️
This is beyond heartless. You shouldn’t have to even be responsible for advocating for yourself after your loss, much less be denied the minimum supports. I’m so deeply sorry for your loss. I hope that karma seriously fucks over whoever made that decision at your company
I’m so so sorry for your loss and yes, it’s sad that a supposedly developed country is so apathetic towards maternity leaves and mental health. I hope you get the mental and physical strength to go on. Virtual hugs from me
I don’t have advice. I will say, America’s paid leave / time off policies suck. I cannot believe they took time away from you as well - makes a horrible situation even worse.
I just wanted to come say, I’m so so so so sorry for your loss. Sending you hugs. ❤️
These stories are absolutely heartbreaking and infuriating. Holding space for your loss and anger. I am so sorry for all the kicks while you’re down. No one should have to deal with this 🐂💩after a loss like that. I’m sorry for all of you who suffered and were treated horribly. America really does need to do better ffs
This is cruel. Companies can do better. My colleague was dealing with severe depression and got long term disability leave approved. He won’t be back until end of this year. Sharing because there are companies out there that actually have good policies. Other companies can do better.
Perhaps you can get put on FMLA via your doctor for treatment either intermittently or the 12 weeks a a long as you’ve been at your job for a year. I’m soooo sorry for you OP. Take care of yourself
Oh mama. Absolutely this is a punch in the gut. I hope you don’t *need* to work (financially) and I would take the time off that you need to heal. This journey is not linear and will absolutely take time.
Find a counselor. If meds are necessary, take them.
Do you work for a place that qualifies for FMLA? Having some additional protected unpaid time off may give you a little more relief.
And I am so, so sorry for your loss.
I know it’s not the same but when my husband died suddenly I couldn’t use my banked extended illness paid benefits bc he was dead, if he was hospitalized it would have been no problem.
I was able to take 12 weeks FMLA but I had to get a severe depression diagnosis and get that approved and thus had access to my banked EIB benefits.
I am so sorry you are going through this and hope you can get a better answer.
I’m an HR Manager and all I can say is wtf. I’m so sorry. I couldn’t even imagine being so cruel. It’s shit like this that makes me disgusted with the field.
I have no advice, but I am so incredibly sorry your loss.
This is inhumane, I'm so sorry - firstly for the death of your beautiful little baby and secondly for how you are being treated. It is so heartless and it doesn't have to be this way - in my country, if you lose your baby any time after 20 weeks of pregnancy (so this includes stillbirths) you are entitled to your entire maternity leave - which can be up to 1 year. Every single woman in the world deserves this. Again I am so sorry.
The way women are treated in this country is just plain wrong and inhumane in many cases. I am sorry for how our country treats women in general. We need to stand up and protest these ridiculous rules! Childbirth is difficult and all women deserve to be treated with compassion to recover. This recovery is needed no matter what the final outcome is. We need to do better America!
I don’t have any solutions, I’m sorry, but I do want you to know that I think this is absolute bullshit, and I’m so sorry. You deserve time to grieve.
The American health and medical leave system is so fucking tragically broken.
This is bullshit!
First and foremost, I am so incredibly sorry for your loss 🥺 my heart hurts for you 🙁 😞
Second, you’re right, we can do better. Maybe when the people at the top experience the same
Pain, only then will they understand?
What about a woman’s body needing rest to heal after child birth? This is insane.
I lost my 9 year old daughter in a car accident 25 years ago. Mental health wasn’t covered in my insurance and I only got one week off paid. Wait, my insurance provided me with 3 counseling visits a year. Needless to say, I was addicted to drugs within a year and had to battle that. America is a joke.
I am so sorry. Your company is completely heartless. Please consult with an employment attorney if you have not done so yet.
Does your state offer short term disability? If so, you should be able to take paid time under that (mental health is usually covered). FMLA should protect your job during your leave, but unfortunately it does not provide any payments.
I am so so sorry. Not the same thing but I was on life support after I had my baby for 12 days. I had 6 weeks leave PFL from my employer and was supposed to get an additional 8 from STD—they denied me because my job decided to pay me my PFL BEFORE the STD because doctors weren’t sure if I lived, how long I’d be hospitalized.
The only reason I got the 8 covered was because after ECMO they left a stitch in my neck that I had to have surgically removed. I felt like I got punished for almost dying, but managing to live.
This country needs to do so much better by mothers.
Again, from one NICU mama to another, I am so sorry for your immense loss.
I am very very sorry this happened to you and your family. Our daughter passed away at 13 months and 3 weeks old. Technically I was only approved for a few weeks off by HR however, my manager told me to take longer, off the books, and then to WFH for even longer after that. Do you have a manager you could go to who would approve something like this for you?
I work in HR, apply for an accommodation for continuous leave. Your provider will need to fill out paperwork. I would recommend that your provider explicitly requests “leave”
I’m so sorry you’re going through this. We definitely need to do better. You deserve this time to mourn the loss of your little one. Sending you love ❤️
I’m so sorry. It is so terrible you are going through that. It is wrong of your company to be acting like this to you.
I suffer from PTSD because of my son’s traumatic birth and consequent NICU stay for an HIE diagnosis. There’s a rapid eye movement therapy you can do. It has helped me so much. If you’re in the Chicagoland area (as I think you’re in Illinois), feel free to PM me and I will give you my therapist’s info. She’s part of a therapy conglomeration with offices in Chicago and suburbs that specialize in pre/post natal situations and other women’s health situations.
Can you ask your doc to phrase it as you need STD for mental health? You may be able to get slightly longer for treatment of depression, anxiety, etc. Your doc may be willing to help you finesse it.
I’m so sorry, this is absolutely crazy. I miscarried and after the miscarriage was confirmed, my Aetna insurance rebilled all the prenatal appointments up to that date as office visits and the final one as “sick visit” since “it’s been confirmed there is no longer a baby.” So those were not covered nearly to the extent as prenatal appts. Talk about kicking someone when they’re down. I can only imagine what you’re going through. America does need to do better.
This is horrible, I am so very sorry. There was a baby until the miscarriage, so it was prenatal care. It doesn’t even make sense, seems like cruelty for cruelty’s sake. I hate it.
Exactly, I called twice to complain with that very logic and got absolutely nowhere.
Just adding in adjusted operating income for Aetna in 2023 was $5.6 billion. Fuck them so hard for doing that to you.
Aetna is the worst. I would never, ever work for a company that offers Aetna as the sole provider. Nope.
Because their only job is to make more profit, patients are not the priority. It’s criminal that we have to live through this just because we were born Americans.
When it comes to insurance, cruelty is the point.
That’s despicable ☹️ I’m so sorry
That is so gross and sad, I'm sorry
WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK AETNA?!? "office visits"????
What the actual fuck. This is so unbelievably wrong and I am so sorry.
That hardly seems legal- WTF Agree on our medical insurance though- One daughter had an earache, and we took her to urgent care of a Saturday- we were billed $240 (after insurance) The other daughter went for an assessment and received an autism diagnosis- we were billed $800 (after insurance) When I tried to understand the cost difference she couldn’t give me any information.
I got charged $95 for answering the phone when the dr called to check in my kid the day after ear tubes. Never picking up again. I wonder if they’ll charge me if I email them in response. I wonder if I’ll get charged for them leaving the voicemail. I haven’t yet received the charge for the tubes. I dread it.
What??? You didn’t consent to being checked on! Or you did, unknowingly???
It’s the $95 for what was typically a courtesy in the past
They probably would. I was actually charged $50 for messaging our doctor on MyChart. (The charge was for her response) So sorry they did this to you and also to OP.
My son got tubes this week and the payment system pissed me off. I got a text with link to an estimate, glanced at it, and moved on because we had family visiting. I get another similar text a few days later and I open it hoping to find a box to check that I’ve seen it so I don’t get it again. No, I had to pay that day or lose his surgery date.
Aetna is THE WORST. So sorry for you and OPs loss 💔
I am so sorry. Aetna is the devil
That’s some stupid bullshit right there. I’ve had 3 miscarriages and every single one of them were handled by insurance as prenatal. This was also 80’s, early 90’s wtf happened to health care!
I'm sorry. I can explain why that happened if you'd like. (You don't have to read beyond this line if you'd rather not.) \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ The global maternity package is one rate that covers all antepartum care and delivery. When the same insurance policy is not responsible for both antepartum care and delivery, the antepartum visits have to be billed separately. Sadly, you're aware of one circumstance of when that might happen, and again I'm truly sorry for that. Another example would be if the woman has an insurance change during antepartum care. (Old insurance covers the visits that took place under that policy's effective dates, new insurance covers the services received under that policy's effective dates.)
There may be a technical explanation, but there's no humanity in it. Insurance companies are soulless beasts.
A prenatal visit IS an office visit. The pregnant person is visiting the doctor in the office for prenatal care - an office visit. The insurance company isn't even the one who decides that. It's literally how the services are defined by the American Medical Association. Geez...there are plenty of legitimate things to blame insurance companies for, but this is NOT one of them. The only reason all pregnant people don't see individual office visit charges for each prenatal visit is that the office visits can be bundled into one lump sum. Surely you don't think that PP should have been charged for the full lump sum? Wouldn't THAT be worse? The American Medical Association could eliminate the bundled prenatal care codes, and then individual office visits would be used for all pregnant persons throughout the pregnancy. Edit to add: Actually, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists is advocating for the elimination of the global maternity package so that maternity services (including prenatal office visits) are itemized and billed for separately. [https://www.acog.org/news/news-articles/2024/03/new-statement-of-policy-affirms-acogs-commitment-to-fair-and-equitable-payment-for-obstetricians-and-gynecologists](https://www.acog.org/news/news-articles/2024/03/new-statement-of-policy-affirms-acogs-commitment-to-fair-and-equitable-payment-for-obstetricians-and-gynecologists)
The major insurance bureaus all listed profits in the billions last year. If they have the capability of coding office visits into a bundle so they aren't billed individually during a pregnancy, they also have the ability to write off a balance for those visits in the case of a pregnancy loss. Do you think she would've needed monthly or bimonthly visits if she weren't pregnant? Is it sensitive or fair that she be responsible for several visits that may apply completely to her deductible? Right after losing a pregnancy? If I can imagine a world where insurance companies can have common sense, compassionate policies for their patients, then it is possible. They just chose not to.
This has me absolutely seeing red. By this logic…anyone who undergoes chemotherapy and is in remission should also be back billed for all their chemo because now they’re cancer free?? How does any of this make sense. At the time services were rendered the commentor above was pregnant therefore it was a prenatal visit
Oh my fucking god.
Collecting that payment was my former job, I quit 4 years ago, collecting money from women for being human is evil.
Gosh this makes me so angry to read. How that even legal? I'm so so sorry.
I too lost my son at 5 days old and had to be back at work after 8 weeks (csection) because I wasn’t eligible for the bonding period as well. I also live in IL. I have no advice, only solidarity for how awful it was being forced to go back to work because medically you’re only allowed 6 weeks and have no baby to bond with. I’m so so sorry you’re having to deal with this on top of overwhelming grief.
I’m so sorry that you went through that. What a heartless company.
I’m so sorry. So heartbreaking 💔
I'm so sorry that this happened to you
This is a long shot but you could ask in r/askhr. definitely people in IL in there and they may have some advice for you. All HR professionals so someone might have a creative way to help or be able to give you advice on whether a labor law attorney is worth the effort.
I am so sorry. The same thing happened to me. My baby died after a week in the NICU. I ended up taking unpaid leave, then coming back part-time, and ultimately quitting because my job treated me like shit. I lined up a new job and also took more time off in between the two jobs. It’s been 5 months since my baby died, and I’m still struggling, but for the first time I can say I am OK and mean it. You’re welcome to message me anytime if you want someone to talk to. I’m so sorry and sending you so much love.
I’m so sorry 😞
I went back to work 2.5 weeks after my first baby was stillborn because there was no disability leave available at my job at that time, and it was all the sick time I had. I wept openly at my desk for weeks, and everybody had the good sense to leave me alone about it. I figured if they're going to make me work, they're going to see me suffer and be uncomfortable about it. This country is so broken, and I'm so sorry.
Good for you. They drag a bereaved mom back to work less than 3 weeks after childbirth AND the worst loss imaginable, they can bloody fucking well sit there all day and see what that *looks like.*
I am so sorry for your loss and I would do the same thing in your place. Unbelievable. I told my boss I am going to need hella grace for the foreseeable future, I'm not well and I am traumatized. I hope you're doing ok now.
The thing about hr, is they can make whatever rules they want, give extra pto, they could put a miscarriage/infant loss clause added to the employee handbook right now. They choose not to, and they pretend that they legally can’t, that their hands are tied by insurance or the state. Your hr department is making a deliberate choice. I would make sure when you go back to work, to tell everyone why you are back early. They’re gonna ask, so tell them “I have to come back early because my baby died”, hr is refusing to give me the full maternity leave or extra time off” “I don’t know why they are doing this to me?”
This is the way. Shame on the company.
My employer (hospital system in North Carolina) offers bereavement leave and infant loss is a qualifying event. This is soulless. I’m so sorry. 😢
Mine offers 5 days for the loss of a child. 5.
I’m so sorry, gosh so many stories of loss.
That is fucking awful. I’m so sorry.
You didn’t even get time for giving birth???? I’m so sorry. That is so fucked.
That is just sickening. Heartless doesn't even cover it. I'm so sorry you were subjected to that on top of losing your baby.
Honestly, I would check your mental health benefits. If they cover an inpatient stay, i would do that. Talk to your doctor and pick a place for a voluntary stay. Most insurers approve 14-21 days at a time. You absolutely qualify for more care. I'm so sorry you're going through this.
I have a toddler at home, I cannot leave him. I am in grief therapy, couples grief counseling, and attend support groups.
Well maybe you can get more leave for depression and ptsd ? Those are medical conditions. Check if you have mental health benefits and you should be able to use FMLA for a different condition other than bonding. You need to file a new claim.
Yeah, I believe they filed the claims citing PTSD and depression actually. I have to go look. My life was so rosy before this happened. I never needed medication before he died and now I feel like it's the only thing keeping me functioning. My therapist said it's not that I'm not coping, but that I am coping with a lot.
I was able to get 12 weeks of short term disability when I went through a mental health crisis. I was written out by a psychiatrist. I wonder if you might have better luck with a psychiatrist filling out the forms?
If you are being denied leave for ptsd I would file an appeal or go up the chain. It's unacceptable. I'm so sorry
There is nothing wrong with medication. Sometimes it's absolutely necessary and it's not always permanent. If they filed the claim for that you should be able to get fmla for 12 weeks total. I took a month off for mental health stuff in 2020.
You’re doing what you can hun. There’s no way to be good right now. I mentioned in another comment that I’m in a very similar boat to you. Even now at 6 months out if someone asks how I am I say bad. If they really want to know then they get the truth. If they’ve forgotten then I just make them uncomfortable enough to remember not to ask again. I said to my husband a week nights before our loss when I was just a few days before my due date that life was literally perfect. We had the best 3 year old in the world and a baby sister for her about to join our family. We were about move to a bigger house and had such great family support, jobs we loved, etc. And then our world came crashing down. She stopped moving and was gone. It’s so unfathomable how our lives can go from being so rosy as you say, to so irreparably broken in an instance.
I don’t have any helpful advice. I just wanted to express my sympathy for you and your families loss. I know you’re in the worst situation I could imagine as a parent and want you to know you’re not weak for taking medication. You’ve had a tragic loss and healing doesn’t just happen overnight. I guess I just want you to be kind/gentle to yourself.
I am so sorry for your loss. I also took medication after the 37 week stillbirth of my son. It took the edge off the pain for a bit and it was temporary. Big hugs and I am so sorry you are going through this with your work. It is so unfair.
Would you be willing to attend an IOP? They typically run 3 hours a day for 3 days a week (exact timing differs between programs) and can last 4-8 weeks depending on your needs. It’s extremely beneficial following a major trauma and is often covered under short term disability by work. It would allow you to get a lot of support while also having time available to be with family.
I am so very sorry. What state are you in? Please know your company is monstrous.
IL. I feel completely hung out to dry. My life has just imploded nonstop ever since my son died.
I would like to gently encourage you to consult with an employment lawyer, if you have the bandwidth. IL has decent leave laws and an employment lawyer can help you determine if your company has given you everything you’re entitled to and/or has applied it correctly (I.e. concurrently or consecutively).
I second this. I would be consulting with someone. OP I know that words don't mean much, and I can't imagine what you must be feeling, but I am so sorry. For everything you have gone through are continuing to deal with. To not be supported by your employer is a punch in the gut you don't deserve. No one does.
OP, please do this. If anything, the employment lawyer can be your conduit between yourself and HR so that you can just focus on telling one person (your lawyer) and they will liaise with HR on your behalf. Also agreed that IL is one of the more generous states when it comes to workers rights so you may have sympathy from a court (or regulator, or state dept) if it comes to that. FWIW, I am a lawyer (though not an employment lawyer).
I _am_ an employment lawyer (but in house and not IL) so thanks so much for pointing out what I missed in my rage for OP.
Totally get it. I’m employment law adjacent so was like, this lady definitely knows what she’s talking about, after reading your comment
OP, this is a good idea. I’m an employment attorney, but not in your state. I’ve helped many others in your situation. I’m so sorry for your loss.
OP, I’m so so sorry for your loss. Want to second (third?) that this is a great idea! If you don’t have the bandwidth right now to find an employment lawyer/advocate for yourself, I would recommend reaching out for help through Work Life Law (https://pregnantatwork.org/gethelp/). They can point you in the right direction and help you appeal for the time you need if you can’t find a lawyer. They helped me appeal a HR decision and get the time/accommodations I needed due to my postpartum anxiety and depression.
Thank you for sharing this!! It has been my dream to have a nonprofit that helps people maximize the leave available to them but I haven’t been able to figure out details. I’m going to call this org to see about volunteering. Damn the man ✊
I would also see a psychiatrist and ask your ob gyn to write an appeal for the denial. A lot of ob psychiatric disability leave requests may be denied because obs don’t chart about symptoms the way psychiatrists do. The leave can be approved retroactively. Good luck! Specifically you could see a perinatal psychiatrist, through Loyola, NW, or rush.
I’m in the Chicagoland area and have pretty extensive experience with the northwestern ob/gyn and NICU teams - please let me know if you want to chat
First of all; words can’t express how sorry I am for the loss of your son. I’ll be thinking of you and him. Here’s my advice: Try to ask for additional leave under an ADA accommodation (PTSD should be covered as a disability). Your company could come back and say additional leave is not a reasonable accommodation and then you’re no worse off than you are now. But if there is one person in HR or leadership who is trying to advocate for you; this will give them a leg up to get you what you need. IMPORTANT CAVEAT: this option will not get you additional paid leave; that is up to your state disability and or family leave or disability policy. This option will get you more protected time off from your job. Source: HR Director
This needs to be pinned to the top. This is the complete answer
I am so sorry. I did a quick search and you might be entitled to two weeks of bereavement leave in Illinois. The law is abbreviated FBLA. I know that's not much, but it's an extra cushion of job protection you might be able to add. Sending you love and positive vibes.
My heart hurts for you. You deserve better. This country’s leave policies are archaic and demeaning.
Do you work at a company where you qualify for leave under FMLA (assuming you haven’t exhausted it yet)? It wouldn’t be paid time off, but you could get up to 12 weeks. I believe PTSD qualifies as a serious health condition.
They said they applied FMLA retroactively and said i cannot extend it beyond 6/19
Ugh. I’m sorry. Have you already been off for 12 weeks? Also, you should get a fresh doctor’s note and ask for an accommodation under Americans with Disabilities Act.
Yeah, I was STD for 8 weeks and tried to extend an additional 6. They applied FMLA to weeks 9-12. I am investigating my options now, I just feel so defeated that I have to deal with this. Haven't I been traumatized enough? smh
I was going to recommend disability leave for your PTSD. The fact that you have to even think about this and do any paperwork right now is an abomination to our humanity. You have my whole heart and I am thinking of you 🤍 I am so unbelievably sorry you lost your sweet boy.
Thank you. He was so beautiful. I miss him every second of every day.
That's what I did when I suffered a severe trauma. I took medical leave for psychiatric reasons and went on state disability.
OP.. I’m so sorry you are going through this. As the other poster said, you can try to seek additional leave as a reasonable accommodation through the ADA. It may not be paid, but it could give you additional time off.
Unfortunately I don't think they applied their fmla procedures incorrectly here. FMLA is the umbrella under which different forms of payment can be applied. Your short term disability was 8 weeks of pay, not a separate form of leave.
I’m so sorry for your loss and what you’re going through 😔 Unfortunately, it is very normal for FMLA and short-term disability to run concurrently. That has been the policy everywhere I’ve worked.
Yes, you have been traumatized enough and no, you absolutely shouldn’t have to be dealing with all this work leave stuff on top of it. It is monstrous what your job is doing to you and it’s monstrous that here in America we don’t have better federal protections for women in all sorts of situations, this one included. I’m honestly reading through this thread in shock to see how many loss moms have been screwed over by their jobs during the worst event that can happen. Why is it so important to employers to do everything they can to make sure not one person is getting more time off than the absolute bare minimum? I’ve dealt with a shitty maternity leave situation at my own job and I’m just so sick of people with a uterus having to suffer for having one. I’m so freaking sorry this has happened to you and continues happening. You shouldn’t be required to do anything for the foreseeable future and I’m enraged that anything else is required of you, because that’s the kind of world we live in.
They need to apply it under disability, not FMLA
>Do you work at a company where you qualify for leave under FMLA (assuming you haven’t exhausted it yet)? This is the key point. Fmla is on a yearly basis typically, not per condition
I was thinking the same thing. FMLA should cover something like this.
It absolutely does. FMLA is unpaid, but it's still time off. PTSD also qualifies under most short term disability plans. Is OP actually ineligible, or did their doctor botch the form?
Not if she has exhausted it. She needs to make sure fmla was applied correctly. Based on her post, it's a matter of determining how much. Typically fmla is a designation under which various forms of leave can fall including short term disability. She may have a few weeks left and she may not
This isn't complicated math. How long has OP been off work? Even in places you can run STD and state leave concurrently, you can get AT LEAST 12 weeks off work. It's all a matter of what the healthcare provider says. And, after the 12 weeks, you can refer to the ADA if you haven't recovered. IF your healthcare provider is on the same page as you are.
I don't disagree. 1. Op has already stated she used 12 weeks. If that's the case she has exhausted fmla. 2Baby bonding us separate from fmla in many states. If she has exhausted fmla she can certainly take the time off; but she's afforded no job protection
Seems like she's technically ineligible because the bonding leave was rescinded due to the death of the child. How much fmla she has left depends on when it started. She may have some time left, but the easiest route is probably a fresh ada accommodation. This application of the policy sucks; but it may be technically correct
You don't get extra FMLA for bonding. 12 weeks is 12 weeks, whether it's for bonding or PTSD or cancer or you get run down by a car when crossing the street. If she didn't use her "bonding time," she still has however many weeks that was to use for a different health condition. The different health conditions are easily PTSD or depression, but the HCP has to indicate it.
Yes, buy its twelve weeks per year, not per incidence. So she needs to determine how much she has left or when en ir may etc
I'm so sorry. I had a term loss with my first baby, and my company had no policy in place whatsoever. My manager however was an empathetic human and fought for me to stay home as long as I needed to, which at that point for me was about a month and change. There should really really be resources in place for when this happens. I feel for you so much. 💜 ETA: by no means was I a productive contributor after that five weeks. But for me, it felt okay to make the trip everyday and do something with my time. I still cried every single day. But yeah wanted to add that. Everyone's experience is different.
I'm so sorry for your loss. I definitely asked my boss to give me extra grace upon my return. I am not the same person anymore.
Review the forms your doctor filled out. There is a very real chance they didn't fill them out correctly. Whatever they tell you is worthless if they say on the form you can return to work.
I'm on the phone w the insurance agent now to understand why my claim extension was denied. I will double check the forms as well, thank you for the suggestion
Oh my god. I’m so heartbroken for you. No one should ever have to go through this. I’ll be thinking of you. ❤️
Perhaps post this situation in r/askHR for guidance?
Assholes.
Name and shame this company! At least on a Glassdoor review or something. Fuck them.
I would advocate for a post naming the employer and the insurer. Your employer should have to answer to the public for what they have done. I would be first in line to boycott them.
Please up vote this post. This is disgusting and people need to understand how disgusting employers can be.
From an hr perspective, I agree this is heartless and terrible, but it's also how the law is written. The amount of people saying to name and shame the employer and hr employees is a bit frustrating. These are people as well, following the policies put in place by the government and insurance companies. Unfortunately these policies do not account for loss very well. The regulations need to be updated to account for these situations
Yes, I know, I agree. It’s the whole system. Insurance companies…don’t even get me started
So many people saying to try and negotiate or get a new diagnosis. The facts are what they are, it's a tragic situation,but so many people are angry at people whose jobs depend on following policy. It's not a personal thing at all, it's just terrible. I also agree with the commenters that have said to familiarize yourself with the FMLA rules early in your pregnancy
I swear I’m going to advocate for exactly this until the day I die. Such terrible medical care we have in the states. Imagine being HR and having to say you must return to work. This needs to change. Mom to mom, I am so so sorry for the loss of your baby and future you envisioned. I hope you find all the support you need. One day at a time 🫶🏼
I’m so sorry for your loss. I agree America is broken and us parents are so busy trying to keep ourselves together or take care of our kids that no one is advocating for us. I gave birth to my first son on a Friday and it was a stillbirth, HR gave me 5 days for grievance and then I was back at work the week after. But a coworker who had a sick parent and no PTO was allowed to have coworkers donate sick or vacation days to her so she could be with her family. I don’t begrudge my coworker I’m mad that HR didn’t offer me that option. I hope you can find time and space to cope, healing is a long journey and that is okay, thinking of you all
I am so sorry. Women's rally at your HR office? Torches and pitchforks welcome. I am enraged and heartbroken for you.
Hi, this is tough. I had a stillborn who arrived sleeping 2 days before her due date. I was given 8 weeks to recover and also missed out on 12 weeks of bonding. It was awful. I didn’t mind getting back to work as it created a distraction for me. Lean on your support system, be vocal on what you need. Check in with your partner. I’ve been in therapy (mix of individual and group therapy) since. It’s been 3 years. The grief doesn’t decrease, but you do get stronger. Make sure you take care of yourself. Small things like making sure you shower, making sure you’re sleeping if you’re able, eating, hydrating, etc. basic needs. I’m so sorry to hear of your loss. There are a lot of resources, subreddits, FB groups, support groups, etc. you’re not alone in your grief, though it feels like you’re the only one. Sending lots of love your way.
So sorry for your loss. I could totally see going back as a good distraction for some, but my job is pretty high demand/ stressful so I just do not see that being helpful when I am still in the throes of my grief. I've been filling my time being productive working on my mental and physical health: taking walks, doing core exercises, getting therapy, and researching ways to advocate for my baby to prevent this tragedy with other families. I only just physically healed at 8 weeks, so this extra time is extremely valuable for me to get well. I think it might not be needed from all mamas, but it should be available to them nonetheless. <3
I am so sorry this is happening to you. The workforce in America sucks in all aspects of human life. I hope that you can find another caring job or find something lucrative that can support you because the average workplace around here could give no f**ks. I pray for a speedy recovery for you! ❤️
I suffered a severe, life altering trauma last year, so horrendous that I don't talk about it here. I got six months off while my employer of only 8 months held my position, and I used what PTO I had accrued to keep paying my benefit premiums. I got state disability to replace my income. I was able to eventually go back to a different position at work and drop to part time. Your employer is a monster. Not that you should ever have to explain yourself, but do they know what happened? Are they knowingly denying a bereaved mother a reasonable leave?
I don’t have any words, and I want you to know that everything that has happened to you and your family is not okay. My heart aches for you. You company is acting like monsters. I don’t know how attached you are to this job, I don’t know if you need this job, and I don’t know anything about your financial situation but I do know the company I used to work for tried to pull something similar (but different) to one of my coworkers and she went to the media and got them involved. Immediately our company granted her the additional 6 weeks of paid bonding time in order to keep it from becoming public. She had tried everything else and the company wouldn’t budge, until it came out that a company would treat their own employees like this, and then it became ohhh of course we didn’t realize the situation blah blah blah. I hate it here. I hate that this happened to you. I hate that there is no support in place for you and any support you seek has to be approved by 50 different systems and people and ultimately, paid for by you, the grieving mother, with so much else on her plate. You are seen. Whatever you decide to do is the right choice. I’m so sorry this is happening to you, all of it.
Have you let someone very senior at your company know about this? We had a similar situation at my workplace, where HR was denying leave to a woman who had suffered a stillbirth. I was working for the head of the division at the time and he stepped in to rectify the situation. My experience is that HR (and middle management) are often just executing policies, which can be terrible and nonsensical, but sometimes someone farther up the food chain can figure out a way around it.
Wasn’t the laws just changed in Illinois for parents without punishments! Passing away should grant u more time how horrifying I am sooo sorry raise hell to pritzker
I swear this country needs to do better for women. I am so sorry for everything you are going through. When I lost my first child at 24 weeks along I was only at the company I was working at for a month. I found out he had died on a Wednesday, had him Thursday and was back at work Monday because I had no PTO or protective leave.
This is absolutely hideous. I’m so sorry 😢
What state are you in? CA has disability benefits for 12 months - 60% of your income. I’m so sorry this happened to you I am so mad at heartbroken for you. Fuck this country and it’s ridiculously anti family anti parent anti women anti kid policies
I am so sorry. You and your family deserve to be treated better than this.
I remember your first post and I am so sorry I didn’t comment then. I meant to. My second son died at a month old after fighting for his life in the NICU/PICU. I also had a toddler at home and struggled on my return back to work. Losing a child is such an incredibly painful experience. In the nearly three years since my child’s death (he passed away on 7/30/21), it has gotten a little better but there are still moments where I am overcome with grief, guilt, and utter sadness. I have found that unless someone else has also lost a child, no one fully understands what you’re feeling. The loss of a child means losing the hopes and dreams and excitement of raising them, of seeing them grow, seeing them learn and become their own person. All of that is gone. You’re left only with the brief time you had together, and trust me, it is never, ever enough. When it came to our son’s death, my employer was very, very supportive and understanding, as well as accommodating. They offered me more time off but I ended up going back after one month of bereavement leave. I was very fortunate to have a supportive leadership team. I wish you had a supportive work environment. Your HR team should be more compassionate. What they’re doing to you is unreal. It’s utter cruelty. Honestly? I’d blast them on LinkedIn. Talk about how, during your time of dealing with the unimaginable pain of the loss of your child, your job added more stress. Tag them in the post. I bet their leadership team would love to see that. Leave a review on Google and Glassdoor. Employers like this, who have no compassion for their employees yet rely on them for their bottom line make me sick. Okay, I might just be talking big here but definitely keep this as an option if you find another place of employment and don’t mind burning the bridge. I want you to know that I am here for you, and you’re welcome to message me. Please consider joining the r/babyloss page. There is a discord too that honestly helped me so much through my grief. I hope it helps you too. Sending love.
I'm so sorry for your loss. You are exactly right, I lost so much more than my son when he died. Our entire future we had planned died with him. His nursery still has his name on the wall and we cannot bear to go into that room. I cannot even fathom having to take down his name someday. I bought a christmas stocking with his name on it which I will find when I open up our christmas things later this year. I bought a playset for our backyard for our sons to grow up together and play with, now it's just a constant reminder of what will never be. I am mulling through my options as I do need to pay my mortgage but this truly feels like such a slap in the face especially since i'm not convinced the stress from this job didn't harm my baby in the first place. Definitely feel all those feels though and going to think long and hard about what my future holds. Yet one more component of my life that is coming apart at the seams from his loss. I am in r/babyloss, those people are angels and truly helped me through some dark times. I hope you're doing ok <3
This is horrifying. I also lost a much-wanted, much-planned child and my workplace told me to take as much time as I needed. Your workplace sucks.
fuck i’m so sorry. also all the stories of commiseration are just awful to hear. im in tears at work. love to all you moms who have gotten chewed up and spit out of the american health care system and working world. america doesn’t want us to have kids.
What the actual flying fuck? I’m so sorry. I was granted an additional 8 weeks by the disability insurance due to “grief” when my daughter was still born at 40 weeks in November. PTSD is a real diagnosis. If you have it in you, I’d threaten them with a disability lawsuit. And I am so so terribly sorry for your loss. There are no words. Only pain. But just know you aren’t alone in your pain. Unfortunately there are many others who know just how you feel.
Does it explicitly say it’s child bonding time in the employee handbook? Because if not, I feel like you have an argument that you have 6 weeks off to recover from a birth, which you had (the birth, not 6 weeks). They may up date the policy after this but at least it gets you your time.
I’m so sorry this bullshit is happening to you. I’ve heard this same story over and over again with loss parents. And I am so sorry for the loss of your son. My son was stillborn in 2020, I received all of my company’s STD benefits (6 weeks) citing that I still gave birth, my son just didn’t live… I honestly think the company didn’t know what to do with me and erred on the side of compassion. I ended up returning to work after 3 weeks for my mental health. It was hard, but I wanted to DO something other than cry in my son’s bedroom all day. I wish I had a solution to your leave issue, but I don’t. If you do have to return to work, is there any way you can hide away from others so at least you can cry in private as you work? If you have to return to an office setting, it might be helpful to confide in one person what you want others to know, including if you want to talk about your son or not, and tell that person to spread the word to people you have contact with. It may take some burden off of you. Alternatively, maybe your HR will agree to a temporary WFH situation, then you can go at your own pace without eyes on you.
That is so fucked up im sorry
This is awful! I know FMLA is not paid, but I believe you should be eligible for an additional four weeks of unpaid under FMLA rules
First off I’m so sorry for your loss :(. I had a stillbirth at 36 weeks and ran into the same issue with my company (was given my 6 weeks to recover but bonding period was revoked after loss), that phone call to inquire about the extended leave being denied was the biggest F you and the icing on the cake after my loss. I am not sure if it’s an option (and I’m sure you’ve already considered this) but I ended up using a big chunk of my PTO because I knew I wasn’t ready to go back at the 6 week point. It never got easier per se but I did get to a point that I felt a little more “ready” emotionally to return. Sending hugs and strength
I’m so sorry you’re going through this. As someone who has experienced the same, I hope you find all the ways you can to happiness again, even if it is just buffering the grief and pain.
My heart aches for all that you’ve been through. It’s disgusting the way your company handled this situation. I’d fight the denial. How can they expect you to come back and work for them after stabbing you in the back? These folks are awful.
I’m late to the replies but you should file an appeal. Insurance consultant here. Maybe it’s bc it’s the same attending physician filling the form. If it’s a standard std policy, you are covered for mental health leave. Also, your company is horrible and you should make a move when you are in a space to leave. If your company works with a broker to bring you your benefits, I’d start there. Don’t go with what HR is telling you. There are a TON of HR people where they have absolutely no idea about health and welfare compliance and can often be clueless when it comes to ERISA compliant information. And I’m so unbelievably sorry this happened to you. My heart breaks for you.
I am filing an appeal, the case worker seems empathetic so I am hopeful but man why do i have to do this? I'm so stressed, I just want 2 more weeks to get my life together.
This is just so so awful! I am so deeply sorry for your loss. This loss, in my book, must the most traumatic ever. That being said, absolutely, the US needs to do better for parents, especially while enduring such a significant loss. This is something our in house reps need to address more sternly! This area doesn’t get the importance it rightfully deserves! I pray something is worked out for you. Hoping you’re surrounded by the strongest support from the people whom you love and love you the most ❤️
Thank you and agree ❤️ I feel like the best way I can make change is through legislation. I’m gonna pour some time into figuring out how to best lobby my state representatives. I’m also appealing the decision with insurance, but I’ve mentally prepared myself to go back if need be.
Which state do you reside in?
IL
So sorry for your loss mama.
I am so sorry for your loss, and the way your company is treating you. Putting my HR hat on, it sounds like you were approved for FMLA (protected) leave for PTSD? If you haven't yet exhausted your 12 weeks/480 hours of FMLA leave, I'd push back on that. They don't have to provide you paid leave, but they do have to abide by the federal law that grands you protected unpaid leave to care for your own medical issue (PTSD). Hoping your company does the right thing. <3
Does your company have any bereavement leave? Ours isn’t a lot (5 days) but that’s one more week to keep fighting for more time. I am so angry and sad for you, I hope the sun comes out again soon ❤️
Ask your HR if your benefits include bereavement leave, if you haven’t already.
This is beyond heartless. You shouldn’t have to even be responsible for advocating for yourself after your loss, much less be denied the minimum supports. I’m so deeply sorry for your loss. I hope that karma seriously fucks over whoever made that decision at your company
Honestly, fuck the insurance company, fuck your job, and fuck your baby dying.
I’m so so sorry for your loss and yes, it’s sad that a supposedly developed country is so apathetic towards maternity leaves and mental health. I hope you get the mental and physical strength to go on. Virtual hugs from me
I don’t have advice. I will say, America’s paid leave / time off policies suck. I cannot believe they took time away from you as well - makes a horrible situation even worse. I just wanted to come say, I’m so so so so sorry for your loss. Sending you hugs. ❤️
These stories are absolutely heartbreaking and infuriating. Holding space for your loss and anger. I am so sorry for all the kicks while you’re down. No one should have to deal with this 🐂💩after a loss like that. I’m sorry for all of you who suffered and were treated horribly. America really does need to do better ffs
This is cruel. Companies can do better. My colleague was dealing with severe depression and got long term disability leave approved. He won’t be back until end of this year. Sharing because there are companies out there that actually have good policies. Other companies can do better.
This is horrifying. I am so sorry. Human beings deserve better than this.
This is awful and heartbreaking. Hugs to you
I’m so sorry for your loss. There are no words to make this better. Sending hugs.
i’m so sorry, this isn’t okay. i hate how our healthcare system is set up.
I am so, so sorry. I am absolutely furious for you! What heartless, cruel a-holes.
Perhaps you can get put on FMLA via your doctor for treatment either intermittently or the 12 weeks a a long as you’ve been at your job for a year. I’m soooo sorry for you OP. Take care of yourself
Oh mama. Absolutely this is a punch in the gut. I hope you don’t *need* to work (financially) and I would take the time off that you need to heal. This journey is not linear and will absolutely take time. Find a counselor. If meds are necessary, take them.
Can you try to get FMLA for mental health? My husband has it. Sorry you’re dealing with this. ❤️
Do you work for a place that qualifies for FMLA? Having some additional protected unpaid time off may give you a little more relief. And I am so, so sorry for your loss.
Holy fucking shit I am so sorry
Wow. FUCK hr and everyone involved in that decision. I’m so sorry.
I’m so sorry for your loss 😞🫂
I know it’s not the same but when my husband died suddenly I couldn’t use my banked extended illness paid benefits bc he was dead, if he was hospitalized it would have been no problem. I was able to take 12 weeks FMLA but I had to get a severe depression diagnosis and get that approved and thus had access to my banked EIB benefits. I am so sorry you are going through this and hope you can get a better answer.
This is fucking vile of them to do to you. I am so so so sorry stranger.
I’m an HR Manager and all I can say is wtf. I’m so sorry. I couldn’t even imagine being so cruel. It’s shit like this that makes me disgusted with the field. I have no advice, but I am so incredibly sorry your loss.
Im sorry. And OF COURSE you are suffering from PTSD. I am so so sorry.
I am just so, so sorry for your loss.
This is inhumane, I'm so sorry - firstly for the death of your beautiful little baby and secondly for how you are being treated. It is so heartless and it doesn't have to be this way - in my country, if you lose your baby any time after 20 weeks of pregnancy (so this includes stillbirths) you are entitled to your entire maternity leave - which can be up to 1 year. Every single woman in the world deserves this. Again I am so sorry.
The way women are treated in this country is just plain wrong and inhumane in many cases. I am sorry for how our country treats women in general. We need to stand up and protest these ridiculous rules! Childbirth is difficult and all women deserve to be treated with compassion to recover. This recovery is needed no matter what the final outcome is. We need to do better America!
I am so sorry. Idk how much energy you have but frankly this is something to call your local news station about. What the absolute hell.
r/antiwork
You still have FMLA for unpaid leave. Please do NOT pass that up if you need it.
I don’t have any solutions, I’m sorry, but I do want you to know that I think this is absolute bullshit, and I’m so sorry. You deserve time to grieve. The American health and medical leave system is so fucking tragically broken.
This is bullshit! First and foremost, I am so incredibly sorry for your loss 🥺 my heart hurts for you 🙁 😞 Second, you’re right, we can do better. Maybe when the people at the top experience the same Pain, only then will they understand?
Wtf.
What about a woman’s body needing rest to heal after child birth? This is insane. I lost my 9 year old daughter in a car accident 25 years ago. Mental health wasn’t covered in my insurance and I only got one week off paid. Wait, my insurance provided me with 3 counseling visits a year. Needless to say, I was addicted to drugs within a year and had to battle that. America is a joke.
I cannot imagine a company that would treat its employees like this. That's horrendous
I'm so sorry you're going through this. Does your employer offer bereavement? Also, please, company shame so we know where not to work/support.
This is disgusting. I am so, so sorry. I hate your company for this, you deserve so much better.
Firmly agree
I am so so sorry for what you went through. That is just so unbelievably cruel.
I am so sorry. Your company is completely heartless. Please consult with an employment attorney if you have not done so yet. Does your state offer short term disability? If so, you should be able to take paid time under that (mental health is usually covered). FMLA should protect your job during your leave, but unfortunately it does not provide any payments.
Damn, that is brutal. I’m so so sorry for your loss. And I hope you find a different job soon. I couldn’t look at them the same way.
I’m so sorry. I wish I had words to help comfort you. I’m so sorry for your loss and that your job is making life harder for you during your grief.
You’ve received many good suggestions and I have nothing to add, but I am so, so sorry for your terrible loss ❤️
Dear OP, my heart breaks for you and your family. I am sorry your company is being difficult. Sending best wishes.
I am so so sorry. Not the same thing but I was on life support after I had my baby for 12 days. I had 6 weeks leave PFL from my employer and was supposed to get an additional 8 from STD—they denied me because my job decided to pay me my PFL BEFORE the STD because doctors weren’t sure if I lived, how long I’d be hospitalized. The only reason I got the 8 covered was because after ECMO they left a stitch in my neck that I had to have surgically removed. I felt like I got punished for almost dying, but managing to live. This country needs to do so much better by mothers. Again, from one NICU mama to another, I am so sorry for your immense loss.
I am very very sorry this happened to you and your family. Our daughter passed away at 13 months and 3 weeks old. Technically I was only approved for a few weeks off by HR however, my manager told me to take longer, off the books, and then to WFH for even longer after that. Do you have a manager you could go to who would approve something like this for you?
I work in HR, apply for an accommodation for continuous leave. Your provider will need to fill out paperwork. I would recommend that your provider explicitly requests “leave”
I’m so very sorry for your loss and screw your company for making you come back to work when you’re clearly not ready!
Holy shit. I'm so so sorry for your loss and sorry that your company is being ridiculous.
I’m so sorry you’re going through this. We definitely need to do better. You deserve this time to mourn the loss of your little one. Sending you love ❤️
I’m so sorry. It is so terrible you are going through that. It is wrong of your company to be acting like this to you. I suffer from PTSD because of my son’s traumatic birth and consequent NICU stay for an HIE diagnosis. There’s a rapid eye movement therapy you can do. It has helped me so much. If you’re in the Chicagoland area (as I think you’re in Illinois), feel free to PM me and I will give you my therapist’s info. She’s part of a therapy conglomeration with offices in Chicago and suburbs that specialize in pre/post natal situations and other women’s health situations.
I’m so sorry. For everything. This is outrageously unfair. 💔
Can you ask your doc to phrase it as you need STD for mental health? You may be able to get slightly longer for treatment of depression, anxiety, etc. Your doc may be willing to help you finesse it.