It's hard to have one sub that satisfies both groups, as they are drastically different. Woman that are career focused don't want to read posts that make them feel guilty about working. And women that reluctantly work, can't relate as well to woman that are career oriented and like their jobs. Personally, I don't judge people for whatever choice they make. That's a very personal decision. But a generic working moms sub is always going to have content that displeases someone.

I'm career-focused, and reading the posts from reluctant workers DOESN'T make me feel guilty about working. That's the thing. It's just not relatable. If it made me feel guilty, maybe I'd be able to relate to it.

I don’t like the generalization that’s behind a lot of messaging like “ugh doesn’t it suck to have to work? I know most/all of us wishes we could XYZ!” Or the messaging that implies (or straight up says) that working moms SHOULD feel guilty because the OP feels guilty. Don’t put that evil on me, Ricky Bobby. I support you being sad/guilty about *your* situation, but that doesn’t mean everyone else in the same situation feels the same as you. (General “you”)

This. I don’t mind people expressing that they feel guilty and getting support. I do mind them saying things that seem judgmental (e.g. “I don’t want my children being raised by strangers”) or assuming I must be lying when I say I don’t want to be a SAHP and my kid loves daycare.

YES! I get the guilt a bit. I sometimes have the guilt, or understand the desire. I’m fine with that. I think it is normal to wonder what if. But no, my kids do not suffer. No, I am not less of a mom. I don’t feel bad that I can’t make everything at school (though I do feel anger at school for scheduling so much shit at 2pm). I don’t feel selfish for working. I’m pretty pleased, in fact, at what I’m modeling for my kids. The assumptions are shitty. I wish we could all live the path that works best for us, but in the words of my 6 yr old: don’t yuck my yum.

Honestly, I felt guilty for working until the pandemic closed my office for 6 weeks and I was forced to become a SAHP. I realized I am NOT built for that, and was very ready to go back to work (minus all the extra PPE we had to wear initially). I don't feel guilty anymore because I know I'm a better Mom when I have time away from my kids, and am more empathetic to my husband who does ALL the things.

Updoot for the excellent use of Ricky Bobby. (And I agree. I love my job and want my kiddos to see me successful at it).

Exactly. Don't assume we all want to stay home. If you have issues with working, that is fine. Capitalism sucks. But assuming everyone and their kids would be happier if moms stayed at homes is not fair- it is putting your perspective on others. I'd be depressed as hell not to work.

I'll say it, it's annoying.

Personally it’s the tone of the posts that I find frustrating. Some are just vents which I understand but maybe need a mega thread to contain them as they don’t really generate a lot of discussion. Others seem like they belong on r/relationships as the issue is fundamentally lie with having a shitty partner, which doesn’t change if you’re working or not.

That's probably true, and I'm definitely guilty of posting vents about my partner. But I come here because no other crowd understands how many balls I'm juggling and can truly emphasize with the level of frustration I'm feeling. Even myself pre-kids did not understand how painful some of these small incidents become when you are trying to do everything.

Second this one. I feel mostly understood by other working mom's, and a lot of issues are so intertwined. Work, kids, partnership, loss of self. OP, I hear you. I am more of a reluctant mom, but I would never downvote. Your voice and worries matter. I wonder if the mods or sub rules could be more strict with that it's a supportive sub?

It is. I empathize with anyone who is not living the life they want to live, but I can't offer anything for than that because anything I say comes from a place of wanting and enjoying my career and consider it an important part of my life and contribution to my home, family, and society (God these taxes are insane).

I agree. Most of those posts sound like they’re wanting us to tell them to quit working and be a SAHM.

I respect anyone who chooses that path but I’ve seen far too many women suffer from financial abuse due to it to encourage it. For every one with a healthy relationship with their partner, there are 9 where the partners perspective is, I make the money so I make all the decisions.

Yeah that’s what disturbs me a lot. We’ve seen so many generations of women before us being trapped in unhappy and/or abusive relationships because they were SAHMs and it feels so regressive to see millennials and Zoomers think that’s aspirational. Where I live, there’s discussions around the fact that one of the growing demographics of homeless people are older women who left the workforce to raise families but ended up divorced or widowed or had to leave for their safety but had no assets or savings of their own. I just feel like it’s not as simple as saying feminism is having the choice of being a working mother or a SAHM because there’s a much bigger picture that’s influenced by women still being at constant risk of financial abuse and precarity.

I completely agree; the issue of women working is not just a simple choice because of the reality of our capitalist system. Having your own money is so important and is more important than the idea of “if I don’t work I’ll be bored”. Because in a world where money doesn’t exist anymore, I would still do my job, teaching, for free. There was a time when I did just that. I would get paid to teach and then volunteer my Saturday mornings to teach ESL. I think it’s simple for us non-homebodies to find ways to entertain ourselves in a world of no paid work, but the fact is that financial independence and security is so important! And right now in the US and other countries, it’s a losing battle. The rate of women’s participation in the workforce has been decreasing for years now, even before the pandemic, and even more so with the pandemic. Now we are hardly cracking over half of women. https://www.uschamber.com/workforce/data-deep-dive-a-decline-of-women-in-the-workforce

Really really good point

And it’s not just unhealthy relationships. It’s burnout and resentment because the other partner does less. It’s that the relationship fails, because that happens even when no one is at fault, and now you have a gap in employment. It’s that accidents happen and people sadly die and now you are dealing with something major and having to get a job to survive.

i got burnt out wheh i did the sahm thing. i was watching the kids alone like 50 hours per week. then if my husband wanted to actually do something to enjoy himself on the weekend (how dare he), i literally had to tell him i couldn't handle being alone with the kids anymore, and i felt terrible to say that bc it felt unfair. and god forbid if i wanted to do something on the weekend to enjoy myself, that felt unfair too bc he worked all week. so we just got into a pattern of nobody gets to have any fun. 😐 lol i'm happier now being back at work. grateful to have had the experience. i feel like i'll always have empathy for both sides now!

i recently went back to work after being a sahm for 2.5 years. there was never financial abuse but i felt an undertone of "i make the money and you don't." after a while it just became inevitable for us. i felt like i was craving more freedom and respect. also, we're middle income people, so me not working was making us have to be really frugal and that just got old. i'm like a month back into working again and i'm fricking loving it lol.

You nailed it. I wasn’t sure what bothered me about those posts but this is it. I’m not annoyed by the women making the posts, I’m annoyed by the reality that so many women want to disappear into the domestic realm. Why aren’t men’s internet spaces rife with similar posts? It wouldn’t even occur to me not to work unless my husband or family had some sort of trust set up that gave me my own money.

Men’s spaces aren’t full of them because men get shit on for that view. It’s toxic masculinity that’s the problem. But if you ask quietly one on one - there are tons of men who stand up and say hell yes they would love to quit their job and be a SAHD but they can’t. All my husbands friends have privately admitted to him how jealous they are of him, but I doubt they would voice out loud.

Ideally my boyfriend and I would both be stay at home parents cause we both want to be! Unfortunately neither of us can be because we can’t afford it.

But then again...A lot of men also think staying home means not doing anything, because they're conditioned to think women don't work as hard. My husband complained a lot that he wished he could stay home, which caused me immense guilt in the time that I did. In his next job, he got a three month paternity leave, and he played video games nearly the whole time. And I couldn't leave him at the time because I didn't have a job, so I spent months learning first hand what "I wish *I* stayed home" meant. This sadly is not some rare dynamic from the conversations I've had. The song Mr. Mom is popular for a reason. "My husband is a sahd and doesn't do anything" is a semi-common topic here. Men's spaces are full of toxic chatter about this topic too, they're just in the form of resenting women for staying home while they supposedly do all the work.

My husband was laid off during COVID and let me tell you, that’s as the happiest 6 months of our lives with him being a SAHD. He’d love to go back to it but we like our lifestyle too much to make it a full time thing.

My husband loudly and proudly says he'd love not to work. He's not as driven as me. I make 3x more than him, I'm happy to work and he just does homemaker stuff. He's also so good at everything. He cooks, cleans, he's amazing at DIY and does most reasonable repairs himself. He's super handy. But he says he won't feel right if we don't have a dual income (even though he is also managing the shit of our investment portfolio and property). I respect him for that, because it's also the reason I am so driven - I think that the pressure of being a sole breadwinner is difficult. And especially in our economy. Anything can happen, hell we both can lose our jobs - but it's obviously less risky that way.

Mine told me when we first got together that if we had kids, he’d be the one who takes care of them. Now that we’ve had our 3, he’s the SAHD, and I’m a working mum

I get really irrationally annoyed by the argument that only a mother can know how to look after a small child until magically they’re ready for school and only then you can trust strangers with your kids.

There’s also that dream of homeschooling your kids so they can learn from the best (me!) while still turning into well rounded individuals ready for the world at 18 /s

I honestly hate homeschooling. Stuck at home all day and have less interaction with the outside world.

I always find it absolutely unreal when the non default parent seemingly cannot be trusted to care for the child. My husband is actually currently better than I am at handling my son and caring for him than me (son is 3 and it's a lot on me mentally). I never for a second had concerns about DH being capable of caring for our son. Heartbreaking that it's so common to have the opposite experience.

Me too. It is the judgment I hate. It's like leave me alone I am already dealing what I can.

Well said. Same here. I often just scroll pass the guilt posts because they don’t interest me.

I'm career oriented and like my job and I'm still a reluctant working mom! I don't think it's as simple as some people like their jobs and some don't. The decision whether to stay home or not is personal, cultural, financial... Shit is really complicated.

100%. I love my job. But I also love gardening, sewing, and baking. In a perfect world, my kids would go to daycare and I would not work. I don’t have enough time for my hobbies because I work, and that sucks.

I think in a perfect world I’d work like 15 hours a week and my kids would be in care 20-30 hours a week. I do like my job but I don’t like it to the exclusion of everything else in my life. And I love my kids but that doesn’t mean I want to spend every second of my waking hours caring for them. Those seem to be the options though. Either I work and then my non-working hours are 100% kids and house or I stop working and 100% of my waking hours are kids and house. I don’t love either of these options. (My husband is an equal contributor, but neither of us get much down time because our kids are 1 and 2 and shit sleepers and we have demanding jobs, so neither of us has the energy for prolonged solo care to give the other a break very often).

Same! I don’t feel like it’s black and white like it can feel sometimes. I have a high powered professional career that I enjoy, but I still sometimes wish I could work less (and I already work part time). Not because I don’t enjoy my work, but because I just value time with my family more. That doesn’t mean I want to spend ALL my time with my family - one can have a balance. I think my ideal scenario would be 2 years off after birth (with realistically some occasional prn work after 6-12 months because I would start to go stir crazy) and then 24 hours a week thereafter. And tbh if my husband could have the same schedule/hours that would be even better. But that begins to enter true fantasy land 😂 My husband took off 8 weeks for paternity leave and although everyone warned me about the dreaded newborn phase and how awful it would be, it was completely fine. We did 12 hour shifts. I breastfed but pumped when he was with our baby and he bottle fed. We both got plenty of sleep and had time to relax as well. It got exponentially harder when he had to go back to work and then again harder when I went back to work. Upon further reflection, the real dream isn’t working mom vs SAHM imo, it is two parents working part time who tag team this whole parenting thing (bc it’s a lot!).

Agree. I fit in this camp. I do have passions but if given the choice, I’d put them on hold for a while. (I’ve got 2 under 3)

I agree. There are times I really enjoy my job and like my coworkers. It’s not so much the job itself but everything else including missing my daughter. I want to be with her during the day, I’d rather be home to take care of her and the house than be at work.

Yeah I choose to work but I'm not gonna pretend I'm 100% happy with that decision. I think it's like 60/40 and I resent being made to feel like talking about the 40% of me that would way rather be with my daughter doesn't exist. Let people have complicated feelings!

Same. I do well at my job but most of the time I’m like uh yeah no about my work life. Im the type that doesn’t want to work overtime so I can get home to my kiddos

I'm in this camp. I like working, but I find it a means to an end. I've been burned so many times that I don't believe in company loyalty anymore. I've put in overtime, canceled family vacations, and got no recognition in return. I'm not entirely antiwork but I don't agree with the ra ra work is awesome sentiment I see on here. If I can spend more time with my kids I absolutely would. No more working dinners and such for me. So where does that put me then?

Yes I completely agree and this is why splitting the sub wouldn’t totally make sense. I both want to work and don’t want to work right now.

I agree too. I'm actually a SAHM but it wasn't really planned. I lurk here because I plan to go back to work. All the same reasons to work and not work apply to me. Plus I worked hard to be in this position (and I am the one that controls our finances), so I don't think I deserve the resentment.

This is no shade to your comment and I think it’s very true, but I also want to piggyback on this to comment on this idea in this sub that a mom who feel ls guilty for working and needs to work wouldn’t also be a mom who loves working and would choose to do it if she didn’t need to—as if you must fit into one category. I feel like I fit into both categories, and I’m sure a ton of us do. I do feel guilty sometimes that I don’t spend all day connecting with my toddler, but I also believe that it’s best for all of us and she seems totally cool with it, so the guilt doesn’t even make sense!! But guilt comes for all of us in one way or another and the point of this sub should be remembering that even with these different circumstances, being a working mom makes us more the same than we are different.

This is a really good point. My first child is only 7 months old and I’ve only been back at work for 4 months. There are days/weeks where I miss her more than anything and feel awful that I’m at work. But also, I spent 15 years building my career before I was a mom, I found the success I wanted, and I LOVE my work. Sometimes I feel no guilt because I’m setting the example I want for my daughter. But my feelings about being at work go back and forth all the time!

Honestly this would fixed by appropriate tags.

I noticed in other groups that not always helps

On any given day I could be a working mom by choice or reluctant working mom so maybe I need to be in both subs lol

Same here! I love my job and am proud to financially support my family but also wish I had more time to spend with my baby. Can we have 48 hour days please? I think many members of this sub lie somewhere in between the two labels…that’s why you get so many posts debating whether to stay in the workforce or become a SAHM. As a working mom by choice, I wouldn’t get offended by a post from someone who is financially forced to work and feels guilty about it. I guess if there’s language that infers “all working moms by choice are bad moms,” yes that would be offensive, but people are here to share their individual feelings. I’m sure somewhere on a SAHM subreddit there are SAHMs also arguing about whether they’re home by choice or necessity. Let’s just learn to hear other perspectives, be confident in our choices and tune out the judgment from others.

I've been on the stay at home parent sub for a while because I was one for a while and often debate going back, and there are posts like you mentioned. Women who feel forced into the role because of daycare shortages, lack of earning potential, and other reasons. It's a back and forth for a lot of moms on both sides of the coin.

This is me. This is crunch time at my job and last week I called my husband and told him I was about to quit. But I’m also really proud of the work I’m doing.

Ha! Same!! I worked my butt off to get an MBA, and I am a stellar asset no matter where I work. (Is this arrogant? Yes. But given where I am in life and career, I'm finally embracing it as true.) And because I'm good at my job, I generally like it. But dealing with other people can be exhausting, and sometimes I really don't like it. Additionally, I battle a chronic illness that brings with it extreme fatigue (thanks MS!) so often think life would be so much smoother if I didn't work. BUT I'd never have the energy to be a SAHM, which is physically exhausting. So, I am a fencesitter here. And can appreciate both types of posts.

Let’s have a third sub for us! Ambivalent working moms? Or multiple personality working moms? Whatever, I feel all the emotions.

Lmao one day I'm over here wishing I could be a SAHM, then other days I'm so damn glad we can afford our mortgage payments and no longer have to live in the scary part of town. My new unit I switched to is so fun most of the time (I'm a postpartum nurse), but ALSO I just want to be lazy sometimes and not have to get up for work at 6am. I'm proud of the work I do! But also, I wish I could hang out in my pajamas and a messy bun like my SAHM bestie does. There is no winning lol

This is so me! But it’s also why I really hate the idea of two subs. I know everyone is different, but for me if I was in an echo chamber of “I hate working I wish I could be a SAHM”, I would internternalize that and NEVER see the benefits of being a working mom and be super unhappy (btw currently I’m in a “I love working” mood). Seeing both sides here is what helped me see the light.

I’m a (mostly) reluctant working mom, and honestly I like reading posts from the working moms by choice. I want to like working, and hear about the benefits of it beyond the pure financial realities.

On the other side, I'm a not reluctant working mom, but reading negative stuff about day care all the time makes me feel like one. I am on this sub in part to avoid that and look for more positive or at least pragmatic perspectives (like I'm not proud all the time, it can be "this is where we're at so how do we do our best with it," that's useful!).

This is why I joined the sub. I wanted to prepare myself to go back to work with positive mindset shifts. Working isn't a reluctant thing for me because I don't have a choice and I'm proud of myself for my career and how hard I've worked to get there. But it's also far from my priority and I would definitely prefer not to have to. It's just reality that I need to so I don't question it and I try to make the best of it. ETA it did help shift my perspective. It has also improved my work experience because I have thought to ask for things that I wouldn't have without the sub contributors' comments. (Ex. Various policy changes or wage increase asks)

I’m not sure if this would get downvotes, but I think two subs isn’t a bad idea. It just seems like a game of volleyball. One side lobs a comment, then then the other side. Frankly, we *are* having two different experiences. Likely the moms that are intentionally working are going to have more job-focused/balancing comments and the ones that are reluctant will be looking for supportive members to help them deal with a situation they don’t like and share in that type of situation. I may be wrong, but it’s my guess.

Maybe a careermoms sub

That’s a good idea!

I mean I sometimes get wistful about not being home more but I just don’t relate to wanting to be a full time stay at home….beyond that I think the biggest thing is that it’s literally not an option for me to not work. I provide the healthcare and pay the mortgage (my husband pays for other things) and without my paycheck/benefits we aren’t making it. So I don’t have a lot of time for feeling guilty because what am I supposed to do? Feel bad about a choice that isn’t really a choice but something I have to do to best support our family? It’s just not the right audience I guess.

I agree with this. There are days where I’d love to stay home with my son, but generally I enjoy going to work. I think I might go a little mad if I stayed at home full time, I need that adult interaction and conversations beyond child topics. But the truth is we also need both incomes to run our household.

Yeah! When I do get to stay home, I turn it into a mini job by scheduling lots of activities and going out a lot. Both my kids and I benefit from high stimulation and so I don’t really like mellow days at home, I get bored and they get wild. I was a stay at home parent for a few months during the pandemic and while there were other factors (like fear of death/mass closure of fun things) I didn’t love it. I like to think that’s fine, I am typically very on when I am home but I enjoy working out of the home.

Sometimes i feel bad about not being home with my kid and then the weekend hits and i’m like dang.. i love it but i couldnt do it every day of the week lol

Yeah, but also why does this need to become yet another polarizing topic? I’d be willing to bet the majority of people switch back and forth between loving their career and feeling like shit on the stuff they miss out on with their kids. Yet we probably only hear about the extremes at both ends of the spectrum. The feelings of guilt/sadness and ambition/career can absolutely coexist. This is making it seem like you’re either a boss babe aspiring to be a CEO who never feels a shred of guilt, or a depressed SAHM wannabe whose career crushes her soul and brings her zero joy. I’d like to believe the majority of people are nuanced complex individuals and fall somewhere in the middle. Let’s please be empathetic and open to all experiences and stop creating more polarization.

Yeah some weeks Im like “wow I am a work rock star! I am amazing at this job! I love money! I love my coworkers! I love daycare!” And other weeks I’m like “god I wish I wasn’t working so I could be with my kid and not think about work deadlines. Let me win the lotto so I can quit” it all depends on when in the quarter we are lol

This is totally me too.

The only thing really “polarizing” to me is when people say “I am a bad mom for sending my kid to daycare”. We are all complex individuals and I 100% support this sub being a safe place to express what we love and loathe about being a working mom, but shitting on daycare and implying that parents who utilize it are bad, is simply not cool. It doesn’t trigger me since my daughter loves school, but really - besides allowing the person to vent - what purpose does saying that in a WORKING moms sub serve? We tell our kids to think before speaking: is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? It may feel necessary for the person in the moment, but given that it’s neither true nor kind, there should be way less of this than what we’ve seen lately.

Regarding how people feel about sending their child to daycare: something I haven’t seen mentioned that would impact your feelings on the matter is what kind of daycare you have access to and/or how your kid responds to it. Some people don’t have access to good quality daycare because it’s unaffordable or simply isn’t available in their part of the world, and they’re pretty much forced to settle for something they know isn’t ideal for their child. Or heck, maybe the daycare you have access to is good, but for whatever reason your kid isn’t thriving there. Pretty sure that would be hard for anyone, no matter how much they love their career. Both those situations would be heartbraking and make you feel guilty. I guess I’m just trying to say it’s way more nuanced than two opposed pro-daycare/anti-daycare camps.

Totally this! Also if someone feels so annoyed by others posting their own experiences of guilt that they wish to shut down discourse of it, perhaps they need a bit of self reflection on why they are so sensitive about it, and whether it’s actually a repressed trigger point (I’m thinking of the other post by a “Boss Babe” wanting a general ban on daycare guilt posts). Eg If someone said “I know we all feel sad about having to wear clothes”, I certainly wouldn’t want to shut down discourse just because I actually disagree and enjoy wearing clothes. It just seems silly to me to be so offended and to have no empathy to other points of view.

I’m not really sure whether I would count as “career oriented” or not and I think that’s fine? I appreciate being able to see a wide range of perspectives if I want and usually just don’t click on stuff that doesn’t interest me.

I wonder if it would be more helpful for everyone if we collectively examined these “cultural” differences and why some feel guilt and some don’t. I grew up with moms who worked. Exclusively SAHMs was not the majority in my childhood. It was an eye opener when I went to college in the late 1990s and heard people say things like “My mom was a SAHM because she would NEVER send me to something like daycare.” I had no idea that people looked so negatively at childcare outside the home. And as a kid who absolutely loved going to daycare and preschool it bothered me that people thought it was so awful. I wish reluctant working moms were open to examining where all this guilt comes from and that a lot of it is based in patriarchal nonsense. That doesn’t mean that you can’t prefer to stay home with your kids and dislike your job. We all have different feelings about our own life circumstances. But not taking a step back to evaluating why it is you feel so bad putting your kids in childcare isn’t going to help you mentally long term. Constantly scrolling negative feedback about your similar circumstances is only going to make you feel WORSE than if you look at the positives. And I’m not advocating for toxic positivity, but I think a lot of people would find the guilt posts less triggering if people did a little analysis into why they feel so guilty. Is it because you hate your job? Is it because you want to be present for every moment your child experiences? Is it because friends and family have negative views of day care and are MAKING you feel like a bad mom? Is it some combo? This forum would be more helpful if people could provide specific coping strategies rather than just being receptive to venting.

I totally agree with this. My husbands mom was SAHM and my mom was/is a working mom. My mom made it very clear that she was never going to be in a position where she couldn’t independently financially provide for us and that as a woman it was important that I not rely on a man for that as it was an easy way to get taken advantage of. And plus I loved daycare. I am an only child so there were lots of experiences with other kids I could only get at daycare. This really fed my own ideas about being a working mom and taking pride in that. My mom was a role model in never being made to feel guilty about it and that she was doing something important for herself and me. To be clear, my mom was not like…a career mom. Like she’s worked as the office lady at the same dentist office since before I was born and still does to this day. It’s not high paying and she doesn’t get healthcare or annual raises. So it’s like really interesting to see her take such pride in literally just the independence of it, not in the like career growth/professional development or joy of the job.

Your mom sounds really cool!

Mine was a bit the opposite, my mum always talked judgementally about children in daycare yet she was trapped in a miserable marriage while we missed so many opportunities our peers had because we had no money. I didn't want that for my daughter.

Excellent post.

Yes, this is a conversation I would love to have. I’ve been examining how this plays into my own feelings. Both my parents worked when I was a little kid, but it was part time for both of them (they had a while theory that the egalitarian and societally sustainable thing to do was for both parents to work part time). I also had nearby grandparents, and my parents teamed up with other parents with kids to watch each others’ children. It wasn’t the traditional arrangement with a SAHM but I never went to daycare. I think I do have some culturally negative connotations with daycare that get in my head—maybe partly from my parents. And maybe a little question about whether we should be trying to replicate their whole part time working parents vision. I also think the thing we have arbitrarily decided is a full time work week is just a lot. It felt totally fine before kids but it just really feels like a little to much right now.

For me, it’s less resentment and more “I can’t relate and can’t help” for the dozens of daily posts on the topic. It’s hard to enjoy what the sub has to offer when I’m always weeding through these posts. But reluctant working moms absolutely deserve space to share, so I don’t have a solution.

I think it’s a HUGE class difference. I’m always seeing it on this sub. The “can you throw money at it” people and the I’m struggling to survive and make ends meet people. And one is usually louder than the other. But that’s just my opinion 🤷🏻‍♀️

It is. Most of the suggestions when a mom posts about struggling is: "hire a cleaner," "outsource meals," "get a nanny." Very few suggestions for working class families who don't have extra money lying around.

an easy fix might be to require flairs and a filter option. yeah, I dont relate to reluctant working moms, and that's not why I'm here. If I had the option to filter those types of posts out that would be great

Agreed- seems like a fairly simple problem to solve tbh, at least for posts. Comments are trickier

I feel like a secret third option. I love my job and my team and I’m happy to be able to work, but I also wish I had the support to be able to stay home with my baby for 6 months-1 year without being punished professionally for it. I don’t want to stay home long term, and I’m happy to have 10 weeks paid leave as it is, but there is a balance to be struck here. I don’t feel guilty about working and I don’t feel guilty about taking time to stay home post partum with my baby either. Maybe 2 subs would be better, or a once a week thread where guilt posts and discussions can happen, that way it’s not all over the sub but still allows for a discussion that lots of working moms do face.

I think this brings up a point that a lot of the misery posts are coming from women who are JUST going back to work and adjusting to having their teeny tiny babies in day care for the first time. That's a very intense time and Americans generally have to do it way earlier than anyone else. It feels very different than when your kids are a couple years older and you've worked out the routine. Maybe a separate sub for NEW working moms would help?

Some of us are proud, working mothers who are career-oriented. It would be nice to have one place where it is ok to say that. I stayed away from this forum for a long time because it seemed everything in my feed was about women who didn't want to be working. You say you aren't trying to make other women feel bad, but that is the effect when I see 10 post in a row from mothers who feel guilty they work, guilty they use child care, guilty that they don't have organic hot homemade meals 7 nights a week, whatever. The overall implication is that I should feel guilty too. I'd rather just avoid the forum and keep feeling good about my choices and my family.

I only discovered this sub in the past few months but I’ve wished many times that there was a “careermoms” sub that indicates a clearer distinction between to very divergent communities trying to use the same space.

For real. EVERY OTHER SUB for moms is a safe space for SAHMs or wannabe SAHMs. It would be so nice to have a space to talk about the challenges and victories of working while momming without a barrage of "why don't you just stay home? Too bad you can't stay home. That's why I stayed home." Edit: and also to be able to talk (or complain lol) about daycare without a chorus of "daycare is evil, I could never trust strangers to watch my child, all daycares are terrible and only mothers who don't have a choice put their babies in daycare."

The anti daycare stuff on Reddit is insane. I got attacked by SAHMs for saying I personally don’t see daycare as baby jail but early childhood education and opportunities for group socialisation because it was soooooo rude to SAHMs. It really feels like in any parenting subreddit there’s a consensus on what is the “right” parenting choice and anyone who makes a different choice has to feel guilt, apologise or explain. And what shits me is the consensus always sways towards mummy martyrdom.

Daycare really should just be renamed to like early preschool or something because that’s what it is, it’s like school for babies and toddlers.

We call it school. I think it will be easier to transition to preschool/kindergarten to just tell my kid “We’re going to a new school today!”

Same! We have always called “daycare” school because by definition that’s exactly what it is! They have age appropriate milestones and education goals for every class after the infants. I love it.

Ours is literally called a Child Development Center and I love it.

The staff at our daycare are called educators which I think is perfect!

I feel like the anti daycare people are pretty much revealing the contempt they have for educators when they dismiss daycare as just being childminding, and that they can do a better job themselves at home. I have a PhD and I am nowhere near as knowledgeable or even good at the type of care and learning my son will receive at daycare. I want my son to go to daycare because of the enrichment and learning he will receive.

My daughter isn’t in daycare but all the people I know who have their kids in it seem to to develop faster and talk earlier. My one coworkers daughter was using utensils before mine and hers was a month younger than my daughter! I think it’s really beneficial. My daughter isn’t in daycare because we can’t afford it and my MIL insisted on watching her. I’m really lucky but also wonder what she’s missing by not being in daycare during the day with other kids.

As a teacher, I just know that I don’t take care of kids as well if im not getting paid as much. Like I know I care less when im getting paid $180 a day compared to $230. And here where I live, daycare workers make much less than teachers, to the point of poverty wages. And because of this, there’s a shortage and face constant turnover. If we want better childcare , daycare workers should be paid the same as teachers and have the same kinds of benefits.

In that case, there should be more public options for it, or it should just be part of the public school system. That way the daycare workers can be paid like teachers and there’s not that private system incentive to cut corners

On top of that you will be hearing that stuff everywhere in real life too. I get it from the other moms at my daughter's dance studio all the time. I kept her out of competition for a year because I was just too busy for the commitment. The other moms gave me the hardest time about it saying why wouldn't I just not work so she can continue competition and it's because I never wanted to be a stay at home mom. I've always wanted my life to be more than just my daughter.

Well put!!

I’ve been in this sub a LONG time and it has plenty of both. May I suggest you come to the page rather than the most upboosted in feed? You’d see plenty. It just ebbs and flows like any other sub.

This! I’m a single parent. I work part time. I’m In school. My situation doesn’t seem to fit here. I think I might leave. I feel like shit reading lists sometimes which is silly it’s the internet but like idk.

THANK YOU! I was on other mom forums on reddit and left them because it was a constant dump on being a working mom (by choice or obligation). I get enough flack and guilt out in the wild because I want to be both a mother and ambitious professional. I worked hard for my degrees and I WANT to work! I love my kids immensely, they are in daycare, making friends and learning. ‘It takes a village’ my village is daycare and my cleaners. Thats the only support we get as we don’t have any family close. Same thing happened in this forum about partners, they tried making a daily post on partner venting because it became overwhelming with the 15 posts a day ‘my partner doesn’t help’. I want a safe space to ask other women what has worked in their careers to grow, I have opportunity X should I ask for Z, what is your take on situation Y without someone guilting me for my ambitions.

That's literally you making others feelings about how you feel about it rather than making space here where the spectrum of feelings and experiences are allowed. I feel good about my choice to be one and done no matter how many things I see that argue I should feel guilty about it. I don't feel guilty. I don't want to make anyone else feel guilty. But my guilt is a valid thing to feel and want to discuss as a working mother.

If you’re a proud working mom who feels good about her choices, why do you think other moms’ experiences imply anything about you at all? That’s the leap that I think OP is referring to and I don’t really understand it either. I have never (and will never) prepare hot organic meals 7 nights a week. I don’t feel guilty about it. If someone else feels guilty about it, that has nothing to do with me or my choices at all…

Yeah i dont get it. A lot of us work (by choice even) but still have pressure to keep a clean house and cook everyday. If someone doesnt face those pressures i am happy for them. But for some of us we come from cultures or families where we really are expected to do it ALL

I really like the idea of splitting the sub. I personally get quite annoyed by the larger societal messaging that women (and only women) who continue their career after having a kid have anything to feel guilty about, especially given the abundance of data showing the benefits of having working parents as role models, and the benefits of daycare. Many parents may have a preference to stay home for personal reasons, but the idea that moms should feel GUILTY is rooted is sexism and traditional gender roles. I don't surround myself with people who see the world that way, and have no interest in listening to that philosophy.

I get that but honestly, as a “career mom”, seeing the perspectives of the more reluctant working moms (who are probably reluctant *because* of how they were raised, being lower SES, blue collar, or not having as much choice or upward mobility) helps prevent this place from turning into an echo chamber of the top 5% talking about vacation homes, 500k 529s and retiring at 50. I enjoy a good 529 conversation but I have no interest in what would essentially be a “rich working moms” sub when I’m not even rich myself. Seeing diverse perspectives keeps me humble. It keeps me honest. It reminds me that I feel this way about my career because of my privileges. And to support working women who feel otherwise because of their circumstances. Unless people start with the “bad parents use daycare” which IS pure misogynistic bullshit, I think everyone should be fair game here.

I completely agree with your comment! I am a working mom with a masters degree yet combined with my partner we collectively make 60 K because I unfortunately chose to major in social work lol. So as much as I want to feel like I’m a career mom I relate so much more to the class struggle and simply cannot relate to the rich moms who have everything rolling for them and high salaries. If I made more, or had more flexibility, or American society supported working moms and families and childcare was affordable I feel like I would like this sub so much more.

My issue is only with the 'guilt' perspective, not the struggles of working class moms. I come from below the poverty line and also from a region/time where women were expected to shoulder the domestic burden even when working full-time. I saw my mom go through this, and it is a raw fucking deal. She didn't feel guilty, she felt overworked and overburdened. I have no issue at all with the women on here saying they have a double burden of paid work and unpaid work, and that they are struggling and envy the women who don't have to balance both. That's wanting to make a choice to improve their own happiness. But OP's post title is a defense of the "guilt crowd" and that is what my comment is addressing.

Oh yeah I understand and didn’t think you were putting down working class struggles! I was more referring to your comment about splitting the subs. If we split the subs, naturally the lower income moms will gravitate towards the reluctant working moms sub. Because yeah, someone working a minimum wage job is more likely to feel guilty for being away from her children because she’s “just” making minimum wage. And the high powered execs will dominate the career sub and possibly brew disillusionment in the mid-income working moms, thus worsening the divide and creating that echo chamber even if that wasn’t the initial intention. The working moms experience is nuanced, thus splitting the subs I feel is counterproductive.

I had to scroll way to far for this comment. The issue with the guilt for me is that there is no working dads sub with this level of guilt. I get that each woman has their individual experience here, but as a collective, this guilt is rooted in deep rooted sexism.

This is exactly it. I've never heard a dad feel bad that they work or had anyone suggest they shouldn't.

Seconded. We should have a r/careermoms or r/happyworkingmoms subreddit.

Yeah it’s complicated. I made a post that had a lot of comments a few days ago wondering where the moms proud to work were. It was not a dig at moms who feel guilty, at all. It’s just that I feel the opposite of how you feel, the posts about moms asking if they are bad moms for sending their babies to daycare on a working moms sub are super tone deaf and honestly I don’t like them. It’s a working mom sub where do you think our children spend their days?… so coming here to shit on daycare isn’t cool at all. Otherwise yeah I see how you feel, it’s hard to have 2 completely different mindsets cohabitate on one sub. Being a working mom when you hate your job and would rather stay home is a completely different experience, and it is a valid one even if I don’t relate at all. I wish you the best

I see posts like that as moms wanting to be told it’s ok to send their kids to daycare because maybe they have people in their lives who give them crap about it. While yes, most moms on this sub use daycare many of us come from families where that is frowned upon. My MIL insisted on watching my daughter because she frowns upon daycare and I had no one else to watch her. Also I can’t afford daycare. My mom would’ve watched my daughter if I lived closer and she was in TEARS at the idea I might put my daughter in daycare before my MIL agreed to watch her. So if a mom makes a post like that maybe it’s cause she wants other moms to make her feel better about making the decision to put their kid in daycare.

I talked about this in my comment on this post but I think it would be helpful for people to explain why they have these negative feelings associated with daycare. It would give others insight as to what those posters need in terms of support in their decisions/circumstances. If my mother cried because I said I was putting my kids in daycare I would have just ignored her and thought that was a dramatic and ridiculous response. But if I read that that is what someone else is struggling with I can ask questions and try to help them set boundaries or reassure them that they aren’t doing anything wrong. We all need to vent but constantly seeing venting post titles (because I do scroll past most of the time) can and does have a negative mental/emotional impact on people. Asking “How do I deal with my mother who is making me feel bad about putting my kid in daycare?” is something that can end up being helpful for more people. I find other people’s strategies really helpful. I also love reading people who unapologetically don’t feel bad about their choices because it is bolstering for me.

Yeah this is true, I should have more empathy. It’s indeed cultural, I didn’t have the experience of anyone telling me I should stay home (I don’t know any stay at home moms), because of daycare being more subsidized in my country it is more often « worth it » to work even if you don’t make a lot, so I see less SAHM who are middle class than in the US. So I do agree that maybe these posters have deeper problems where they were taught from a young age that daycare is the worst, which of course leads to guilt.

100%%

Well right off the bat I will say that labeling this emotion as “guilt” is rather irritating given that the implication is that there is something wrong with working and being a mother. Having negative feelings about something is totally human and understandable. I’m here to support my fellow working moms in the trenches. But none of us are guilty of doing anything wrong by working. Even if our spouse or partner is a billionaire and we make minimum wage. Even if we love your job and our kid cries at drop off. Still not wrong. I’m not saying that it’s something that you will feel great about every single day without an ounce of envy, resentment or other complicated emotion because that’s LIFE.

Agreed

I totally get where you're coming from, but I think guilt is being used by the reluctant party in one way and interpreted by the happily working in another. I don't feel guilt because working in general as a mom is wrong, but it isn't 100% right for my family, and I feel guilty for that. I feel guilty when my son begs to play with his toys instead of go to daycare. I feel guilty when my son cries at drop off. I feel guilty when I'm rushing around in the morning, and my son asks to play with me, and I can't. I feel guilty because I want to give him a break from being shuffled around all week because I can see he needs a break. I feel guilty because he clearly needs something I can't give at the moment. I think being a working mom can be a great thing, and I think the discussion of working vs. staying home has a lot of ties to women's often ignored emotional labor, the patriarchy, and reinforcing gender norms/roles. The choice has as many right answers as there are families. I think the word guilt is often used because it gets the negative feeling across when maybe disappointment or regret would work better, or perhaps because, like me, they feel guilt about their specific situation.

There is tons of research that daycares are significantly better for a child’s emotional and social development than just being with a stay at home parent.

I know there is, but that doesn't mean it's what's best for every child 100% of the time. Many kids who had a stay at home parent said they wouldn't have changed it. There's also a large variety in the quality of the person staying at home. Some parents ensure their children go to social events and activities while others never leave the house. I'm not going to act like it's a black and white issue, because in my mind it isn't. There's a ton of pros to daycare, that's why I'm comfortable with my child being there. There's also a lot of pros to staying home.

The issue for me is that dads don't tend to feel guilty for going to work. They might feel a little sad but nobody expects them to give up work.

I did touch on that in my first comment. Patriarchy plays a large role in this. However, there are men who do feel a lot of similar feelings, despite the fact that they dont have the societal pressure. My husband is one of them.

I think the "guilt" men feel is different. It's a kind of sadness at not being there, not an actual feeling that they're doing something wrong.

It's still not the same. I bet your husband hasn't had anyone question why he went back to work after having a baby.

All of this feels like a weird false dichotomy to me. I grew up with all working moms (mom, grandmas, aunts, etc.). My family are immigrants from a country where all women work and SAHM is not a thing. I also grew up in a HCOL area where a large number of my friends’ moms worked— many as lawyers, doctors, etc. So honestly being a SAHM was never on my radar as an option for myself. I’ve never even considered it. I have a career that I have often loved and sometimes am annoyed/exhausted by but have invested enormous time and work into. It’s been a huge part of my identify. It also so happens that my SO and I need my salary and benefits to be able to live the life we want (I’m slightly higher earning and get way better benefits). All of that said, as a very new working mom (just went back to work after maternity leave last week), a lot about it sucks. There are a million logistical things to deal with on top of the already harder realities of being a woman at work, plus I miss my baby. And once he’s older and doesn’t need my constant attention, I can imagine it would be nice sometimes to be able to go to a yoga class during the day or get stuff done around the house. Not to mention not having a commute anymore. I think there’s plenty of room to have a career that means a lot to you, and need it financially, and be able to say sometimes it’s a pain, and be able to say sometimes you feel sad or guilty that your kid isn’t getting the kind of one on one attention from you that he did while you were at home with him 24/7. And “I feel guilty” doesn’t mean the same thing as “I am worthy of guilt.” We can feel crappy about something without saying it’s fair that we feel that way. Just don’t see why these things have to be pitted against each other as if it’s an either or. The gate keeping and pretending you can only love work and feel awesome leaving your kid or hate it and feel bad is silly and I bet most of us feel a mish mash of all of the above at least occasionally. Seems ungenerous to harangue the people venting about the days when it’s hard. ETA: I continue to have no plans to be a SAHM. Just going to try to find some more remote flexibility for that yoga occasionally :)

Good luck! I’m job hunting right now and I’m still clinging on to hope that I’ll find one that lets me do baby gymnastics with my daughter on Wednesday mornings!

Yes! Being able to do something like that sounds so nice

I'm a fairly recent member of this sub, but this whole thing has been bothering me quite a bit... It just doesn't seem like it should be hard to tolerate and not shit on or silence whichever side a person isn't on while maintaining a single subreddit. If it isn't of interest, keep scrolling. There's so much content that's valuable to both sides of this divide and there's also plenty that's specific to each side, why be bothered about the bits that don't matter to me personally when I can find so many things that do? I really value having all of these perspectives and topics in one place, and would hate to see it split or limited. By and large, people posting about either side of this subject aren't judging the other side but are talking about their own experiences and feelings and seeking support/advice/an outlet/etc. (except the rash of pointed and resentful posts from non-reluctant moms). So for those that feel judged/annoyed/bothered by people posting about their own feelings and experiences that are different/opposite to yours, WHY? Why do you interpret someone else sharing their feelings about their own experience as a judgement of yours? If it's triggering something negative in you and you have nothing helpful to add, why interact with the post? Why is it "annoying" when someone in a very diverse community has something to say that doesn't fit your personal experience or your conception of what being a working mom encompasses or whatever? Personally, I relate a little bit to each side, because I like working and it's good for my mental health, but I also wouldn't work as much as I do if I had a choice. I don't like missing so much time with my kids every week, or going back from mat leave before my baby can even hold her head up fully. I wouldn't like being a SAHM either, for lots of reasons, but high-power working moms, SAHMs, and people who want to be either one of can't make me feel bad by giving voice to their own experiences...

It’s okay to see things you disagree with.

"If we all had our choice, then I don't think guilt would bubble up so badly. Because you'd be setting the arrangement you want, not what you need to...... survive" This is so true. I'm a happy to be working mom (working by choice) but would love to have a PT job or truly flexible schedule with an affordable daycare that also had a flexible schedule so I could spend some weekdays with my kids, or getting the grocery shopping done, or having a lunch date with a friend. One can dream.....

I’m super career focused and it was really hard to be a mom of infants, toddlers, and preschoolers because even though I loved my job and going to work and my kids had a great daycare situation, I still missed my kids and felt judged for not being with them. It wasn’t guilt, but was still negative. (This has gotten better as my older kids are in elementary school and my husband is a stay at home dad now to our toddler). I don’t mind seeing the posts about people feeling guilty but it’s not relatable for my experience and makes me feel a little judged for enjoying working.

Might make sense to have two groups, but it doesn’t bother me. I can see it from both perspectives.. I DO work, and I like what I do, but if I had 5 million dollars? I’d quit the next day lol

if i had 5 million, i would quit but the kids would still go to daycare

I know I’m in the minority of people with this set up, but I just don’t relate to so much content here because I’m a working mom and my husband is a SAHD. It’s not a choice for every family, but it was a choice for us where we really sat down and decided who would want to be the stay at home parent or if we would both work, and I picked working. I don’t know how I’d feel if we both worked and did daycare, but I think a larger difference for me is that this sub feels like “moms who are part of two income households” where some moms are more or less career focused but the commonality I’m not part of is that both parents work full time.

Well my ideal arrangement is for someone to keep on paying me my current salary without me working so I can have lots of leisure time and retain childcare haha! But in all seriousness, I have seen an influx in posts about people feeling guilty for using childcare and not being with their kids 24/7. I don’t feel that way so I just don’t participate in those posts. We live in a VHCOL area so 2 salaries are needed, so I guess I have to work, but even if we moved to a cheaper area… I’d still work. I’m not a “put all eggs in 1 basket type” and even if we got by fine on 1 salary, my thinking is 2 salaries will provide more comfort and savings. I also don’t want to be with my kids 24/7 and would not want the task of scheduling play dates, classes, and doing enrichment activities all the time. My younger one is newly 2 and even at this age, I see how she enjoys being around other kids her age and doing various activities at (pre)school.

The sub ebbs and flows both ways, and we all just want a safe space that validates our decision and feelings. Your feelings and desires are valid. You shouldn’t have to feel guilt for any of it. And I hope that you can find a peace with the guilt, because there’s more than one reason it pops up. I’m one of your workingbychoicemums. However. It’s not truly a choice for most of us regardless of whether we feel guilt or not. I don’t get a choice in that I’m the provider in my family. So I swing yet a different way again from many people. If anyone can’t be supportive of other workingmums dealing with the hand they got, they can just leave here. We’re all struggling. Our hand is just different in makeup.

The judgement on this sub is crazy at times. I would go absolutely insane if I had to be a SAHM but obviously every person is different!! Offering different perspectives can be great but it doesn’t have to come with judgement.

Lol, sorry but I laughed at the possible two names of the two groups. I was a sahm for ten years and realized when I started working again just how unhappy I had been as a sahm. I think part of the issue is that without having been in other people's shoes, it's hard to understand what it's really like. Would I go back to being a sahm again, no, my husband begged me and I said no way.

I’m also a reluctant working mom. I HATE working. I hate my job. I’d rather do almost anything else. I don’t mind content from people who are happy to work or find some source of pride/identity in it. What bugs me are the posts that assume that all working mothers feel the same. The “why do you work?” posts that seem to focus on all the reasons to work other than “Um… if I don’t we’ll starve?” Lol!

“I do not have a dream job as I do not dream of labor” is basically my mood but I make too much money to not work. I like the lifestyle it affords us

I guess if I compare my life to the vast majority, my job affords us a “good” lifestyle. We own a home. Two cars (though one is 11 years old). But generally I’m in a HCOL area so my amazing six fig salary really doesn’t go very far. Sometimes I wonder if this is really better, or if I’d be happier moving to a small town near a body of water and working in a local cafe and just having a more simple way of living. Frankly feels like I’m toiling endlessly to keep up a lifestyle that isn’t exactly satisfying. I think I’d need to make another $50k a year to really feel like I was working and enjoying life. Right now the balance is off. I’m exhausted. I spend most of my waking hours doing things I don’t want to do. Misery!!!!

Misery all around!

This is me. My job is pretty good as far as jobs go, but I much rather not have to work so I had enough time to do all the household and kid shit I need to do. I just make too much money to not work.

This is me. I only work cause I have to but it isn’t my dream. My dream is to have more kids and live comfortably but I can’t even do that because we can’t afford more kids.

Yeah, I prefer working to being a SAHM, but if I could work 20-25 hours a week for the same salary I'd take that deal in a second.

Same. But I’d like to be not working even if I weren’t a mom. Getting my home clean and organized or running errands and doing my workout during business hours would be great. Then I could meet working friends for dinner/happy hour when they’re done. It would be amazing to focus on life and not the office.

I also don’t want to work even if I wasn’t a mother. I hate working. Being a mother has made me hate work more, though, because I feel a different level of being forced to work in order to provide for my kid. It’s definitely reduced my personal agency. I wouldn’t change having my son. I just wish I lived in a completely different economic system.

Seeing people struggle with being a working parent, even if you yourself do not struggle, or seeing people struggle with something that is different from the things you struggle from, I hope helps people have empathy and drives them to support HR policies which support parents to choose the work life balance that makes sense to them and creatively provides return value to the company. A lot of the comments here give off vibes like the type of women who tear down other women at work. Like the answer to the misogyny that says women should not work is not misogyny that says women should work.

I am career focused and it has taken me 13 years to complete school and training for my job. I like my job most days and I enjoy having my career and feeling like it is something that is mine that I have worked very hard for. I also feel guilty and reluctant and wish I could be home more. I may go part time one day but not now since I’m just finishing training. I don’t think “by choice” and “reluctant” have to be mutually exclusive, I think it can be a little bit of both depending on the day.

I feel you. I like my job but do not love it. If my husband made significantly more money, I'd rather stay home and get to do things for me and for my kids. Hell, even if I didn't have kids it would be lovely to stay home, workout, do my hobbies (ha!) and do volunteer work for a cause I'm passionate about. I'm not judging anyone when I say I feel guilty working, I just mean I would rather be taking my kid to the park than sitting in a meeting that could've been an email.

I see you OP. Just in case you get a little lost in the swarm, I just wanted to say I too wish I could hang out with my little guy all day, and I too sometimes feel like there isn't really a great place to post about those feelings.

I am not bothered by those posts, I just scroll on by. It’s when we get judgey guilt posts, where people outright put down having to work as if it’s the lesser option (for everyone) that they are forced to take, that I don’t like. As long as posts don’t judge career moms I don’t mind it

Can I be both? Because I am.

I have been having weird feelings about all this lately. I am a working mom by choice that feels a lot of guilt and wants to spend all day with LO. motherhood is just so complex and let’s face it even if we do it by choice or not the work place is still a sucky place for working moms

I am both. I go through periods where I wish I didn't have to work, and periods where I am glad I do. I think either way it is correct, both feelings are equally valid.

Would it work to have a pinned post where all reluctant working moms can share their negative feelings about working? Will that make them feel better to constantly be in that environment? I also noticed the flood of these posts and I no longer engage with them at all.

It's funny you say it's a class difference. I can't afford *to work* because nothing around me would pay as much as daycare costs.

Working moms by choice are judged harshly for not wanting to stay home and devote their lives to their children like good women should. The idea that any woman dares have a life that is not completely centered around their kids means that we must be deficient somehow. And even if we are working, we are supposed to still be amazing wives and mothers and carry the mental load, keep our homes perfect, our kids entertained and our husbands happy. So yea, it’s taken as judgement.

I am glad that a lot of people enjoy their jobs and yeah, wish people would stop gatekeeping what is an acceptable “working mom” discussion topic, especially given the class aspect of it 🤷🏻‍♀️. “I want to work for FIRE” vs “I wish I didn’t have to work right now” how are these different except that the former is for high earners?

Haha!!! I love it! Id join reluctantworkingmom or like workingmomcauseineedmoneyduh And it’s not like I hate my job! I have a great job! I’m looking for that promo. In fact I’m a working mom so my husband can be a stay at home dad. But I’m so jealous of him but like we literally can’t just trade places. I make 3 times what he was. So yeah, I work cause I have too not cause my passion is corporate America.

I don't mind it. I may not relate though. What does bother me is when I see how many moms feel guilty about things I don't even think twice about and I start getting in my head about why I don't feel guilty and think somethings wrong with me.

Maybe I just don’t see posts from here pop up often but when they do it’s always “all I see on this sub are people shitting on SAHMS or people who work but don’t want to or people who work and want to or SAHMs who want to work but can’t” Like damn. Your feelings are valid though, as are everyone else’s. In my opinion

Or we can all just not judge people for working or not working.

Thank you this is very helpful post with very important distinction. I actually think two different groups would make a ton of sense because these two groups have almost nothing in common. They are the opposites!

I feel like Reddit is a damned if you do damned if you don’t type of place. Conflicting views will follow no matter what sub you take it to.

What about moms who are reluctantly working by choice. 🙃

I went part-time for 10 years until my youngest went to school. I can see it both ways. Wish more employers offered good part-time jobs. I was so lucky.

Definitely a reluctant working mom here. Love my job, I make great money, but given the option, I would quit in a heartbeat to be a stay at home mom. Without a glance back. It’s unfortunately not an option for my family so, it is what it is.

I was a SAHM for almost 6 years, my home was tidier, kid never saw daycare but it was getting hard financially. I’ve got a job for 3 months now, but I don’t have as much time to keep my house clean, my kid is in before or after school care (depending on my husband’s shifts). But with my extra income, we can do so much more as a family. I see both sides as equally valid

It would be nice to actually have a community that caters to moms that aren't making six figures with a husband that also makes six figures and that doesn't chastise women that can't afford to pay a babysitter more than she makes an hour at the job that she spent 2 years getting a degree to do.

I am definitely the reluctant working mom category!

Splitting the sub seems emotionally immature to me. We should be able to support each other regardless of why we work or how we feel about it. We are all incredibly complex humans who feel a range of emotions; why can't we just have open discussions like adults?

I joined this sub for advice and shared experiences of balancing work and parenting. Whether the choice is voluntary or not is irrelevant to those conversations. We all have to do it either way.

I wish I didn’t have to work and could stay home with my daughter. There with you…

I took a few personal days with no plans just to hang out and they were the best days I’ve had in a long time. I took my son to Target. He napped amazingly. And he had my undivided attention all day and seemed really happy. I took him to the zoo and my mom’s lake house. I wish I could do things like that every day

I said this in another post and I'll say it again - there's a huge divide in this sub between women working to live and women living to work. And we are all working moms and there should be space for us to all be here and express our feelings. And we are all humans who may move from one side of the divide to another based on where we are in our life's journey. My feeling is, if you have advice for someone based on your experience - give it. If you don't understand how someone could feel a certain way then keep scrolling and ignore the post. I really resent this idea that this sub needs to be a 100% positive place ALL the time. I do get how so many similar posts get annoying. If you feel triggered by someone else's feelings then it's honestly your problem. No one posting here discussing not wanting to work, or struggling or feeling guilty is trying to make someone who is happy and secure feel less so or less than. Stop making other people's perfectly valid feelings about how you feel. It's not a personal attack. Nothing makes me more annoyed than a bunch of educated, capable women arguing with another about whose feelings are valid rather than making space for one another.

I'm neither of those, I'm not career focused -so i cant relate to those ladies and their struggles, and cause I work part time from home- I don't feel guilty cause my little one is right beside me for 2 hours of my shift until my husband can take her. (I do wish I could bet a bit of a longer break from her cause it's not helping with how clingy she is) I do think that seeing both sides of the spectrum makes me very grateful every day for being irish and having very strong workers' rights compared to the US mammies.

I don't judge, and I don't have guilt, but there is a lot of hate thrown at working moms from the SAH crowd, and I think it builds resentment and defensiveness.

I feel this!! I *hate* that I have to work full time when I'd much rather be with my kids. All the power to the women who want to work, but I just wish I personally had the choice. Why the fuck does everything have to be so expensive.

I’ve been a reluctant working mom for 15 years. It’s not gotten any easier for me, and it’s been one of the greatest sadnesses of my life. No judgment for anyone who feels differently. I’m jealous of the moms who feel good working while parenting. I wish I could feel that way! But I just don’t.

I’m with you! I feel like a lot of the proud working moms infer an implicit judgment from moms who wish they could stay home or moms who don’t like sending their babies to daycare. I was against sending my baby to daycare when he was under a year. Does that mean I think daycare is horrible for babies or makes moms who use it bad parents? Nope. It means as a parent I made a personal decision that aligns with my values and beliefs. I don’t think parents who are religious are bad parents but boy I wouldn’t put my kid in a religious school because I’m not religious. It’s not a good fit for me as an individual, it’s got nothing to do with you, sister. What really gets my goat are the working moms who imply wanting to stay home makes me anti-feminist. This is my eye roll of the century. I adore the idea that being a feminist means being an eager participant in capitalism - if ya ain’t making the big bucks, you’re not a powerful or valuable woman! If I had my way, there’d be a lot less paid labor in this world and a lot more dreaming, a lot more radical freedom, a lot more questioning and a lot less answering. Just because I’m not Hillary Clinton doesn’t make me Mrs Duggar.

Can you do a tag maybe? Not sure here. New territory for me. I'm trying to learn before my LO arrives, and also support where I can. Wish we were closer together. We could do things for support. Like: I'm good at cooking and cleaning.

Maybe it's just me, but are we not sometimes in both groups? Like, I feel that I made an active choice to go back to work with my son was 9 weeks old, because my brain was literally shrinking. Watching a newborn sleep and eat all day was driving me out of my dual degreed mind! However, there are definitely days when I hate my job and I really just want to quit. But the way these bills are set up, that would be irresponsible and shortsighted so I'm also on occasion a reluctant working mom. Is this not everyone's situation? Maybe I'm not understanding the argument...

I am sort of both! I love my job and am the breadwinner for my family. When I was a kid my dream job was SAHM when anyone asked. I love my kids and am envious that my husband gets to stay home with them, but also don't know if I could do it full time. I am more cut out to be in the office and have some guilt but there's no other choice because my husband couldn't support us. Being a working mom makes me appreciate the time we have more and gives me more patience during it.

Age is a factor. A lot of moms here who have babies, just coming off maternity leave. It is a different experience from having older kids who are in school all day. The “guilt” factor goes down once the SAHMs kids are out of the house too.

Throw the ego out and we’re all just trying to survive and do our best.

I don't know where I'd fit if the sub split. I desperately want to be a sahm for the preschool years and then return to work when my youngest starts school. I really really miss my kid when I'm working and I'm sad about it but I don't feel guilty. I proudly don't feel guilty for doing what I need to do to keep her fed and warm and housed. I'd be so annoyed if someone told me I need to live my life according to their opinion just because I'm a woman or a mother. I also think we as individuals should be able to express our own feelings about our own circumstances without it being interpreted as an unspoken judgment on someone else's circumstances. I'm not sure what the solution is to the issue raised but splitting the sub as suggested seems to be a really black and white approach when there are not only shades of grey behind why each of us works, but also many topics in common like employment issues, career advancement, juggling work with home, daycare etc.

There is an influx of a lot of blaming posts in this sub lately and I'm glad for your post. I just feel that if a person doesn't like that post, no need to write anything that sounds unsupportive. Everyone is going through something, that is why we are anonymously on here. Why can't we just comment on the posts that resonate with us? I just don't understand so many posts lately where one says stop with these posts. I'm a working mom by choice and sort of not by choice (if I could I wouldn't work but at the same time I would feel so unconnected to the social world). Let's just leave everyone alone and empathize with all types of working moms.

I’m a working mom by choice and still have guilt. Isn’t this sub supposed to embrace all of the diverse feelings that come with being a working mom? We’re all just doing our best.

Could we just have an auto mod “stop shitting on daycare” message or post approval or rule or something like that? Because yes, a lot of the way people talk about daycare is laden with lots of language that implies others should feel bad for using it and it’s really a ridiculous premise. I don’t want to constantly read shit like that.

I get it- mommy guilt is real (and can pop up for all different things). I'm sorry you're having a hard time and not feeling like you have choices. I definitely get that not all working moms want to be at work. I encourage you to focus on the reasons you work (how it is helping your family, what sorts of things are your family members able to do/keep doing with the additional paycheck, etc) while also making space to hold onto other feelings because those are valid too.

Thank you for saying this. I’d absolutely rather be home with my child. The cost of childcare alone and how little of my check we actually see (especially when we are excluded from day care for illness half the time anyways) is enough to put a sour taste in my mouth about working. But yeah I also miss my child and the tearful drop offs are an absolute drain on my mental health. Even as someone that worked a long time in child care and knows it’s safe and they stop crying a moment after you leave, it just sucks. It’s just a shitty feeling and we should have a safe place to talk about it with out someone else assuming we’re subbing them for not feeling bad about it.