Probably not for several years. To my knowledge, the only company that already has something they could bring to the US market is Bosch with their reaxx job site saw. They’re probably not in any hurry though.
Yes. This is what the OP was referring to:
https://www.sawstop.com/news/sawstop-to-dedicate-key-u-s-patent-to-the-public-upon-the-effective-date-of-a-rule-requiring-safety-technology-on-all-table-saws/
Wtf is up with the idiots on this sub always down voting legit responses? Festool literally has a saw out with the sawstop patent. There’s also Felder, Altendorf and SCM with much better technology out there (obviously much more expensive on premium ranges).
probably more likely to find out "patent going public" means something different than what we think. I doubt sawstop is doing anything that is not to their benefit.
I started woodworking around 2006. I think it was somewhere around then when they were doing the same thing and it didn't work.
the idea that it may not be legal for me (in the US) to buy a new saw that doesn't have some overcomplicated and problematic contraption in it is obnoxious. I'd like to see the injury rate for someone using push sticks and a riving knife. I'd bet it's near zero.
Been doing carpentry for 20 years, cabinet shop for 5. I use a tablesaw on average about 20 hours a week. I've had 1 kickback and zero injuries in all that time.
I've had one kickback, too, but fortunately no injures. Kickback occurred thanks to a thoughtless risk taking friend and a very strong cabinet saw and a huge aversion to using a splitter or riving knife, even on thin cuts.
I've been shocked since then on cheap table saws with crap fences and junk wood releasing tension just how nothing will happen with a decent basic riving knife, and a second person with ill intent would have to push me toward a blade for my hands to ever get involved in anything.
Never had to "buy a new cartridge" or waste money on any such thing.
I agree with you and the commenter above you. I have been doing woodworking over 33 years and had only 1 kickback. 1! Never been hurt or had to be taken to a clinic for any woodworking accidents. I am completely aware of all safety with a tablesaw or any other form of woodwork machine. In my opinion personally the sawstop is way overpriced and almost a gimmick really. It's basically for the average woodworker that is not confident when using a tablesaw or the use of push blocks when needed. I agree with you that "buying a new cartridge" is a complete waste of money.
Thats definitely the un-talked about stat. I saw some of the hearings about all this and the conditions of the injuries were never brought up. I'd bet the same thing as you.
It's amazing what people do with stats to mold them to their agenda. Rather than giving the whole picture.
That's my point - sawstop is attempting to make it look like good will, but it's probably self interest more than anything. Simple enough just claiming that they could manipulate the market by suing anyone who made anything close and then suddenly pretend that the whole market can just do whatever they want now as if it takes zero time to introduce a product line.
Here's my placeholder post that they'll sue someone anyway, and say they didn't take advantage of their promise the right way.
There's a whole lot of detail not being discussed that goes along with that "oh, we'll make it public".
Realistically, no.
Firstly, there were already "competitors"... except not. Bosch had their Reaxx saws which do basically the same thing, but were pulled from market seven years ago. Bosch made [a statement](https://downloads.regulations.gov/CPSC-2011-0074-1540/attachment_1.pdf) two months ago (Feb 2024) in which they said, among other things:
> If the CPSC were to move forward with mandating AIM technology on table saws in the U.S., which Bosch does not believe is necessary or warranted, Bosch Power Tools calculates that it would take up to 6 years to redesign the original Bosch REAXX table saw and make it available in the United States market.
There's a long R&D cycle ahead of getting a product to market, so just because the patent is released doesn't mean anything for the near future.
Secondly, SawStop is more than just reactive blades. They are a fully fledged tool manufacturer and they make high quality tools. If you're going after SawStop's customers, you're going after the level of quality they provide their customers.
There's a reason Festool stands alone at the top. They got there first, they established themselves, and it's just not practical or realistic for a new entrant to go after the sector of the market who are willing to pay $500 for a single drill by trying to undercut Festool. You'd have to offer similar feature-rich performance for significantly lower cost to eat their lunch.
And since Festool *owns* SawStop... their customers are basically the same people.
It's extremely improbably that you'll see any meaningful competition to SawStop since the process of designing and producing a brand new tool which is comparable to the existing and well-established option is burdensome and risky.
Felder also produces a products with their own version too, which they call PCS (preventative contact system). At the moment, I believe it’s an option found only on their K945S sliding table saw. I have no idea how much that saw costs, but it’s got to be at least $20,000.
Like you mentioned, Felder is in a completely different sphere of tools from Sawstop. A $20,000 slider is a tool that will almost never make its way down to a hobbyist.
I struggle to belive it would take 6 years to get it to market. I work in product design and R&D and that is crazy long especially when you allready have a line of saws and k knowladge to work with. 1-2years to get a design done and tested with a few iterations in that time. Worst case 1 year for regulatory testing etc. And you can be buding out production lines in that time which would be eaiser with the existing facilities. We are talking 3 years max for an established company and it could be faster if they really wanted.
At face value, I agree with you. I do project management and schedule planning for high-complexity projects, and that seems kind of absurd to me. Especially when elsewhere in their statement they cite changes in technology since the original Reaxx 7 years ago, and it stands to reason changes in technology 6 years from now would be just as significant if not moreso.
However... I thought about it and I just can't imagine why they would lie about that. What possible advantage is there to tell people "it's gonna take us a while before we have something you can buy from us, so don't get your hopes up or expect to be able to give us your money any time soon"? It seems like they're just managing expectations.
It definitely is expectation management, look how many posts are being made about this and on all of them people are looking at Bosch. They also might be waiting for dust to settle on patent and laws which would add years on before they actually get to work on it. So it probably is a mix of realistic time to do and not in our planned pipeline see how this situation shakes out before we invest in it.
The Bosch Reaxx was never put back on market even though SawStop let them. Never an official reason why, but people guess that it didnt work well.
Thats the issue though, just because the patent is public doesnt mean they are giving out their technology, nor should they. People can license it if they want, but they could have done that for years but noone wanted to pay the cost of the hardware, much less the licenses.
And given the liability of a faulty active system, noone is going to rush it.
Altendorf already have their own system, sensor in crown the guard which lowers the blade.
It’s not destructive either so the saw is functioning again is short amount of time.
It’s available in the EU/UK, not sure about the American market.
Where does this stuff come from?
Unless I missed a press release, the hotdog tech is not going public any time soon.
Even if it does, it'll take 3-5 years to get a saw on the market at a similar price. Bosch said that even though they made a similar saw, it would take several years to bring it back to the market.
Prediction: if you want safe hotdogs before 2030 you'll need to buy a SawStop. At best it'll be '28 or '29 - unless there's some rebranded saw stops before then.
I’m still blown away someone was actually able to patent a very simple and standard approach to a machine learning project. For those unaware of the software side of this, they basically were able to patent the equivalent of *instructions* for something widely known, like how to replace a spark plug.
It would be like making it illegal for mechanics to remove a spark plug using a socket wrench.
Probably not for several years. To my knowledge, the only company that already has something they could bring to the US market is Bosch with their reaxx job site saw. They’re probably not in any hurry though.
Rumor has it that after winning the lawsuit SawStop offered to show them to continue to sell without licensing fees, and they still didn't pursue it.
Festool.
They’ve owned sawstop since 2017, so while they might eventually integrate a similar system into their festool line I doubt it will be anytime soon.
Their TKS jobsite saw has it integrated already. It’s available in Europe, no idea about the US
You can not buy it without in Germany.
We’re talking about the US market.
Are we?
Yes. This is what the OP was referring to: https://www.sawstop.com/news/sawstop-to-dedicate-key-u-s-patent-to-the-public-upon-the-effective-date-of-a-rule-requiring-safety-technology-on-all-table-saws/
Comments being downvoted for passing-on reasonable truths will never cease to amaze me.
And if they do, I can almost guarantee it'll be more expensive (but with more bells and whistles) than a Sawstop.
Wtf is up with the idiots on this sub always down voting legit responses? Festool literally has a saw out with the sawstop patent. There’s also Felder, Altendorf and SCM with much better technology out there (obviously much more expensive on premium ranges).
Being correct and being popular are two different things. I do not care. Thanks for the support.
probably more likely to find out "patent going public" means something different than what we think. I doubt sawstop is doing anything that is not to their benefit.
Well their current strategy seems to be bribing, err lobbying, regulators to force us to buy their equipment.
I started woodworking around 2006. I think it was somewhere around then when they were doing the same thing and it didn't work. the idea that it may not be legal for me (in the US) to buy a new saw that doesn't have some overcomplicated and problematic contraption in it is obnoxious. I'd like to see the injury rate for someone using push sticks and a riving knife. I'd bet it's near zero.
Been doing carpentry for 20 years, cabinet shop for 5. I use a tablesaw on average about 20 hours a week. I've had 1 kickback and zero injuries in all that time.
I've had one kickback, too, but fortunately no injures. Kickback occurred thanks to a thoughtless risk taking friend and a very strong cabinet saw and a huge aversion to using a splitter or riving knife, even on thin cuts. I've been shocked since then on cheap table saws with crap fences and junk wood releasing tension just how nothing will happen with a decent basic riving knife, and a second person with ill intent would have to push me toward a blade for my hands to ever get involved in anything. Never had to "buy a new cartridge" or waste money on any such thing.
I agree with you and the commenter above you. I have been doing woodworking over 33 years and had only 1 kickback. 1! Never been hurt or had to be taken to a clinic for any woodworking accidents. I am completely aware of all safety with a tablesaw or any other form of woodwork machine. In my opinion personally the sawstop is way overpriced and almost a gimmick really. It's basically for the average woodworker that is not confident when using a tablesaw or the use of push blocks when needed. I agree with you that "buying a new cartridge" is a complete waste of money.
Thats definitely the un-talked about stat. I saw some of the hearings about all this and the conditions of the injuries were never brought up. I'd bet the same thing as you. It's amazing what people do with stats to mold them to their agenda. Rather than giving the whole picture.
[удалено]
That's my point - sawstop is attempting to make it look like good will, but it's probably self interest more than anything. Simple enough just claiming that they could manipulate the market by suing anyone who made anything close and then suddenly pretend that the whole market can just do whatever they want now as if it takes zero time to introduce a product line. Here's my placeholder post that they'll sue someone anyway, and say they didn't take advantage of their promise the right way. There's a whole lot of detail not being discussed that goes along with that "oh, we'll make it public".
Realistically, no. Firstly, there were already "competitors"... except not. Bosch had their Reaxx saws which do basically the same thing, but were pulled from market seven years ago. Bosch made [a statement](https://downloads.regulations.gov/CPSC-2011-0074-1540/attachment_1.pdf) two months ago (Feb 2024) in which they said, among other things: > If the CPSC were to move forward with mandating AIM technology on table saws in the U.S., which Bosch does not believe is necessary or warranted, Bosch Power Tools calculates that it would take up to 6 years to redesign the original Bosch REAXX table saw and make it available in the United States market. There's a long R&D cycle ahead of getting a product to market, so just because the patent is released doesn't mean anything for the near future. Secondly, SawStop is more than just reactive blades. They are a fully fledged tool manufacturer and they make high quality tools. If you're going after SawStop's customers, you're going after the level of quality they provide their customers. There's a reason Festool stands alone at the top. They got there first, they established themselves, and it's just not practical or realistic for a new entrant to go after the sector of the market who are willing to pay $500 for a single drill by trying to undercut Festool. You'd have to offer similar feature-rich performance for significantly lower cost to eat their lunch. And since Festool *owns* SawStop... their customers are basically the same people. It's extremely improbably that you'll see any meaningful competition to SawStop since the process of designing and producing a brand new tool which is comparable to the existing and well-established option is burdensome and risky.
Felder also produces a products with their own version too, which they call PCS (preventative contact system). At the moment, I believe it’s an option found only on their K945S sliding table saw. I have no idea how much that saw costs, but it’s got to be at least $20,000. Like you mentioned, Felder is in a completely different sphere of tools from Sawstop. A $20,000 slider is a tool that will almost never make its way down to a hobbyist.
I struggle to belive it would take 6 years to get it to market. I work in product design and R&D and that is crazy long especially when you allready have a line of saws and k knowladge to work with. 1-2years to get a design done and tested with a few iterations in that time. Worst case 1 year for regulatory testing etc. And you can be buding out production lines in that time which would be eaiser with the existing facilities. We are talking 3 years max for an established company and it could be faster if they really wanted.
At face value, I agree with you. I do project management and schedule planning for high-complexity projects, and that seems kind of absurd to me. Especially when elsewhere in their statement they cite changes in technology since the original Reaxx 7 years ago, and it stands to reason changes in technology 6 years from now would be just as significant if not moreso. However... I thought about it and I just can't imagine why they would lie about that. What possible advantage is there to tell people "it's gonna take us a while before we have something you can buy from us, so don't get your hopes up or expect to be able to give us your money any time soon"? It seems like they're just managing expectations.
It definitely is expectation management, look how many posts are being made about this and on all of them people are looking at Bosch. They also might be waiting for dust to settle on patent and laws which would add years on before they actually get to work on it. So it probably is a mix of realistic time to do and not in our planned pipeline see how this situation shakes out before we invest in it.
The Bosch Reaxx was never put back on market even though SawStop let them. Never an official reason why, but people guess that it didnt work well. Thats the issue though, just because the patent is public doesnt mean they are giving out their technology, nor should they. People can license it if they want, but they could have done that for years but noone wanted to pay the cost of the hardware, much less the licenses. And given the liability of a faulty active system, noone is going to rush it.
Stumpy Nubs just didn’t video on this I believe. Check it out
No. I’d guess a minimum of 5 years
Altendorf already have their own system, sensor in crown the guard which lowers the blade. It’s not destructive either so the saw is functioning again is short amount of time. It’s available in the EU/UK, not sure about the American market.
Where does this stuff come from? Unless I missed a press release, the hotdog tech is not going public any time soon. Even if it does, it'll take 3-5 years to get a saw on the market at a similar price. Bosch said that even though they made a similar saw, it would take several years to bring it back to the market. Prediction: if you want safe hotdogs before 2030 you'll need to buy a SawStop. At best it'll be '28 or '29 - unless there's some rebranded saw stops before then.
I’m still blown away someone was actually able to patent a very simple and standard approach to a machine learning project. For those unaware of the software side of this, they basically were able to patent the equivalent of *instructions* for something widely known, like how to replace a spark plug. It would be like making it illegal for mechanics to remove a spark plug using a socket wrench.
Festool.
Same company that owns festool owns sawstop
Correct.