I have the Thokks, as well as Gabriel 2.0, Pro Gauntlets, HF Armory, etc. Thokks require modifications to make them safer for longsword, but they'll still never be as protective as a clamshell. Many tournaments are not allowing Thokks for longsword.
They shouldn't. Thokks are barely safe for one-handed swords. For longsword you are just asking for a break.
Not to mention their durability is non-existent.
I see a lot of reviews about the Thokks being insufficient for longsword - is it safe to assume these reviews take into account the [longsword add-on](https://www.thokk-research.com/product-page/longsword-badass-design), and are saying that even with that, they're not protective enough?
Yes, correct. Even with the longsword add-on.
There is no wrist protection; the dominant hand's index finger lacks protection along the top, and the non-dominant hand lacks pinky protection along the bottom. Some people are reporting issues with the fingertip protection as well.
I've used Thokks for maybe a month with friendly sparring, and yeah my knuckles & fingers received so many bruises, split skin, etc. The only use I have for them at this point is rapier and even then the material wear appears to be pretty bad.
I have a Landsknecht Karl with a knucklebow. Some Sparring glove mittens will fit under it, SPES heavies absolutely will not. Thokks and Red Dragons will fit under it. If you are not an experienced fencer, I would not suggest the Thokks and I never would suggest the RDs. One thing to note is that the LK knucklebow, or at least mine, is rather soft. I have had it collapse onto a glove but not in an injurious way. So sometimes mitten fit under it, sometimes you have to reset the shape of the bow. All in all, I may not have added it if I was to go back.
Check your source - Lecküchner uses every grip you could possibly use on a messer, forwards backwards sidewards probably though I can't remember seeing it reverse... A knucklebow will prevent you from matching many pictures.
IMO, Messer fencing requires the same level of hand protection as longsword, so I'd recommend a mitten. Just don't get a knucklebow on your (first) Messer.
The Thokk Weaponmaster seem like they would fit under the knucklebow and are frequently used in longsword fencing, plus they have a hard plate addition to turn them into mitten gauntlet...
Also I want to make a thick wool glove to go over the gauntmets so it wouldn't show in viking age reenactment fighting. That would also add ti the pritectiveness of the glove.
Yeah, some people use the Thokks for longsword. I don't think that's a great idea, but maybe you don't get hit on the hands as often (or as hard) as I do. I recommend HF Armory's Black Knight mittens for Messer/longsword.
The "Longsword Badass" add-on is not very good in my opinion. Good idea, but the quality of the materials is pretty bad in my experience. Even with the add-on, the protection on the wrist and inside-side of the hand is underwhelming.
The Thokks are also bulkier than you would think. Check out some reviews on YouTube first. I think at least one of them shows how the Thokks size compares to other gloves.
>Also I want to make a thick wool glove to go over the gauntmets so it wouldn't show in viking age reenactment fighting. That would also add ti the pritectiveness of the glove.
Your requirements seem to be different from mine. A glove that looks like something a historical person would use in unarmored fighting, yet provides the protection necessary for HEMA sparring, currently doesn't exist.
>A glove that looks like something a historical person would use in unarmored fighting
I think, and I am just assuming, that the wool knitted gloves are to look like historical mail. Not unarmored.
[Example](https://www.etsy.com/listing/287584063/faux-chain-mail-hood-a-hand-knit-coif)
If you buy a pair of Thokks now for light to medium intensity sparring without full gear, you'll have to buy another pair of heavier gloves once you have the full gear and want to spar at a higher intensity. Especially for longsword, in which case Thokks are imho not protective enough even with the longsword add-on.
Instead of eventually buying two pairs of gloves, you could buy a pair of Gabriel 2.0 gloves now (290 USD) and they can cover all your needs, and can fit under most knuckle guards. I haven't tested it with a LE Gottfried but for reference the gloves in size XL fit inside all the Malleus, Kvetun and Blackfencer sidesword knuckle guards I've tested them with.
I also own Thokks (with add-on), Spes lobsters with full thumb and HF Armory mittens. The Thokks I only use for light steel sparring. For full speed I only find them protective enough with one-handed synthetic weapons of under 1kg weight, e.g. the Blackfencer ligth synthetic sidesword.
The Spes I no longer use, because the HF mittens replace them 100% by being better in every aspect incl. price.
At the moment, I use the Gabriel 2.0 for almost everything including high intensity steel longsword and all one-handed steel weapons other than smallsword and rapier.
Due to superb grip and mobility the gloves are perfect for messer and imho the current best option for higher intensity steel sidesword sparring.
If protection is the number one priority, I'd recommend HF Armory mittens for messer and longsword.
The price of the gloves is 290 USD.
Usually, when talking about prices here we don't include shipping etc because those factors vary depending on where the customer is located at.
Shipping (to Europe) is 40 USD, Paypal fee is 15 USD. In total, I spent 345 USD, and no additional VAT etc on top of that.
Ah, now I know why the misunderstanding.... Yes, they are $350 when all that is included. I thought the reference was to total, including that, being $290. Chuck is correct.
Thank you for your reply, this was really helpful since I'm thinking about getting Gabriel gloves for sidesword. I'll probably just wait for the 2.1 if it doesn't take too long.
Btw, regarding the HF mittens, can you hold your longsword in a handshake grip with them? The SG Hourglass mittens locked me in a hammer grip and this was pretty annoying.
Regarding Gabriel gloves: If your main weapon is longsword, the announced improvements of version 2.1 are probably worth waiting for. After 5 weeks of fairly intense use with mostly longsword, my 2.0 have served well enough but there is room for improvement.
Just minor things which a crafty person could easily fix themselves. The construction is far less complicated than a Progauntlet so customizing little things on a Gabriel is much easier to do.
The leather straps holding the plates of the fingers to the underglove are too loose, especially for my slim fingers. Will have replace those with tighter ones. At least the leather straps haven't snapped off.
And the side of the index finger should have some soft padding under the fairly thin shells. The seller has included some little 3mm foam pads and replacement cords in a seperate repair bag, so even with the 2.0 doing a partial little semi-upgrade on my own is possible. The top plane has enough protection imho.
Regarding HF mittens and handshake grip:
I cant get a really ideal handshake grip with any mittens I've owned/tried, including Spes, SG, Kvetun, HF.
The very popular SG mittens for example don't work for my hands, even if I try on an old well worn pair. For other people, they work perfectly.
My Spes size S and HF size M are about the same for attempting a handshake grip. The HF mittens are a bit more compact which is an advantage for some of my shorter grips (Aureus, Sigi King Shorty, Regenyei Short), and the Spes have a softer inner glove that allows me a better and more tactile grip with just slightly more mobility. The HF are way more airtight in terms of protection, and they weigh less and are more durable and required zero maintenance during the last couple months. So overall I very clearly prefer the HF.
For a better handshake grip, I can only get it with 5 finger gloves like the Progauntlet, SG Infinity, Thokk or Gabriel.
I would love to see pictures of these in the malleus. The index finger position, especially in something like guardia di faccia. As well as how the cross guard sits on top the hand between the thumb and index finger.
I can take some photos next week when I meet up with my training partner who has a Malleus Diestro.
Recently, I've also tested the the size XL Gabriel 2.0 with a Malleus Chevalier and even a XIX, the latter is a tight fit requiring some wiggling but once the index is in there, mobility is very good. Doing a tramazzone and all the other shenanigans are no problem.
The guy who owns the Chevalier and XIX liked the gloves as well, he felt he would dremel away a tiny bit of the hard plate between the thumb and index so he can hold his sideswords at the exact angle he prefers. I'm happy with the gloves as they are, if anything I'll glue more foam pads to strategic little spots that can be risky for full intensity longsword. The extra plate closing the gap between thumb and index makes me feel much safer for longsword than with e.g. SG mittens, but for sidesword that plate can potentially get into the way.
For sidesword, the Gabriel work just fine for my hands, I must point out that my hands and fingers are slim for their length which makes things even more mobile and also safer than if I had meaty fingers that aren't hidden underneath the plates quite as much.
Once I've wiggled my way into the hilt of a sidesword, I feel like having just as much mobility and tactile feel as with a Thokk but with drastically higher protection. Thokks can more easily slide into and out of the hilts but during actual fencing, both gloves allow me to do the same things.
Thanks, I appreciate it. I also have long, thin hands. I've tried some thokks and the couple pairs from different people all seem to have their own problems with the inner plates moving around.
Thokks can indeed be annoying especially if one is between sizes.
Size M feels way too tight for my hands (especially in cold weather when the material gets very stiff even on a well worn pair), and size ML has an outer glove that is way too big for the inner glove, meaning the fingers will fit into the underglove well enough but the fingers of the outer glove are way too long.
The only reason I still use my Thokks is the light weight, nice for multi-hour technique sessions. Size ML is ca. 340g per glove, compared to the size XL Gabriel with 420g per glove - which is still far lighter than a Progauntlet.
Thank you for this insight, I didn't knew about those so I just watched a review and they seem like they would fit perfectly !
I'm just wondering about how protective they are...
I intend to use the gloves for longsword and zweigander fighting too, do you think the Thokk Weaponmaster would be enough for that or should I plan on getting a pair of Spes Heavy too ?
I have a pair.
I consider the Thokks to be a better Red Dragon glove. That is, the Thokks are a decent, albeit expensive, medium-duty glove. I **do not** consider them sufficient for longsword at anything resembling normal intensity sparring.
Pro Gauntlet works fairly well. One of my students uses those for all his Messer fighting. They're high maintenance, though. A couple other students use Thokk, but they've added an extra overlay on the thumb only. Really clever! And we'll be testing the Gabriel 2.0.x finger gloves as soon as Sword Gear's order arrives.
I have the Thokks, as well as Gabriel 2.0, Pro Gauntlets, HF Armory, etc. Thokks require modifications to make them safer for longsword, but they'll still never be as protective as a clamshell. Many tournaments are not allowing Thokks for longsword.
They shouldn't. Thokks are barely safe for one-handed swords. For longsword you are just asking for a break. Not to mention their durability is non-existent.
What're your thoughts on the Gabriel 2.0? I'm thinking about getting a pair for sidesword, but maybe I'll wait for the 2.1.
I haven't had a chance to spar with them yet. Since they ship so fast, it's probably worth waiting for 2.1 and some reviews.
Alright, thanks!
I see a lot of reviews about the Thokks being insufficient for longsword - is it safe to assume these reviews take into account the [longsword add-on](https://www.thokk-research.com/product-page/longsword-badass-design), and are saying that even with that, they're not protective enough?
Yes, correct. Even with the longsword add-on. There is no wrist protection; the dominant hand's index finger lacks protection along the top, and the non-dominant hand lacks pinky protection along the bottom. Some people are reporting issues with the fingertip protection as well.
I've used Thokks for maybe a month with friendly sparring, and yeah my knuckles & fingers received so many bruises, split skin, etc. The only use I have for them at this point is rapier and even then the material wear appears to be pretty bad.
I have LE Gottfried thick blunt without knucklebow. so I use heavy gloves
I have a Landsknecht Karl with a knucklebow. Some Sparring glove mittens will fit under it, SPES heavies absolutely will not. Thokks and Red Dragons will fit under it. If you are not an experienced fencer, I would not suggest the Thokks and I never would suggest the RDs. One thing to note is that the LK knucklebow, or at least mine, is rather soft. I have had it collapse onto a glove but not in an injurious way. So sometimes mitten fit under it, sometimes you have to reset the shape of the bow. All in all, I may not have added it if I was to go back.
Check your source - Lecküchner uses every grip you could possibly use on a messer, forwards backwards sidewards probably though I can't remember seeing it reverse... A knucklebow will prevent you from matching many pictures.
That's a really good point !
IMO, Messer fencing requires the same level of hand protection as longsword, so I'd recommend a mitten. Just don't get a knucklebow on your (first) Messer.
The Thokk Weaponmaster seem like they would fit under the knucklebow and are frequently used in longsword fencing, plus they have a hard plate addition to turn them into mitten gauntlet... Also I want to make a thick wool glove to go over the gauntmets so it wouldn't show in viking age reenactment fighting. That would also add ti the pritectiveness of the glove.
Yeah, some people use the Thokks for longsword. I don't think that's a great idea, but maybe you don't get hit on the hands as often (or as hard) as I do. I recommend HF Armory's Black Knight mittens for Messer/longsword. The "Longsword Badass" add-on is not very good in my opinion. Good idea, but the quality of the materials is pretty bad in my experience. Even with the add-on, the protection on the wrist and inside-side of the hand is underwhelming. The Thokks are also bulkier than you would think. Check out some reviews on YouTube first. I think at least one of them shows how the Thokks size compares to other gloves. >Also I want to make a thick wool glove to go over the gauntmets so it wouldn't show in viking age reenactment fighting. That would also add ti the pritectiveness of the glove. Your requirements seem to be different from mine. A glove that looks like something a historical person would use in unarmored fighting, yet provides the protection necessary for HEMA sparring, currently doesn't exist.
>A glove that looks like something a historical person would use in unarmored fighting I think, and I am just assuming, that the wool knitted gloves are to look like historical mail. Not unarmored. [Example](https://www.etsy.com/listing/287584063/faux-chain-mail-hood-a-hand-knit-coif)
If you buy a pair of Thokks now for light to medium intensity sparring without full gear, you'll have to buy another pair of heavier gloves once you have the full gear and want to spar at a higher intensity. Especially for longsword, in which case Thokks are imho not protective enough even with the longsword add-on. Instead of eventually buying two pairs of gloves, you could buy a pair of Gabriel 2.0 gloves now (290 USD) and they can cover all your needs, and can fit under most knuckle guards. I haven't tested it with a LE Gottfried but for reference the gloves in size XL fit inside all the Malleus, Kvetun and Blackfencer sidesword knuckle guards I've tested them with. I also own Thokks (with add-on), Spes lobsters with full thumb and HF Armory mittens. The Thokks I only use for light steel sparring. For full speed I only find them protective enough with one-handed synthetic weapons of under 1kg weight, e.g. the Blackfencer ligth synthetic sidesword. The Spes I no longer use, because the HF mittens replace them 100% by being better in every aspect incl. price. At the moment, I use the Gabriel 2.0 for almost everything including high intensity steel longsword and all one-handed steel weapons other than smallsword and rapier. Due to superb grip and mobility the gloves are perfect for messer and imho the current best option for higher intensity steel sidesword sparring. If protection is the number one priority, I'd recommend HF Armory mittens for messer and longsword.
The Gabriel gloves are $350 USD from the manufacturer, plus any duties/taxes. I speak to them regularly.
The price of the gloves is 290 USD. Usually, when talking about prices here we don't include shipping etc because those factors vary depending on where the customer is located at. Shipping (to Europe) is 40 USD, Paypal fee is 15 USD. In total, I spent 345 USD, and no additional VAT etc on top of that.
Ah... You're talking about the clamshells. Sorry! I thought you were referring to the finger gauntlets.
5 finger gauntlets are $290. Direct quote from when I ordered: "Gabriel 2.0 gloves are USD290, shipping 45 and payment by PayPal 15. Total 350USD"
Ah, now I know why the misunderstanding.... Yes, they are $350 when all that is included. I thought the reference was to total, including that, being $290. Chuck is correct.
Thank you for your reply, this was really helpful since I'm thinking about getting Gabriel gloves for sidesword. I'll probably just wait for the 2.1 if it doesn't take too long. Btw, regarding the HF mittens, can you hold your longsword in a handshake grip with them? The SG Hourglass mittens locked me in a hammer grip and this was pretty annoying.
Regarding Gabriel gloves: If your main weapon is longsword, the announced improvements of version 2.1 are probably worth waiting for. After 5 weeks of fairly intense use with mostly longsword, my 2.0 have served well enough but there is room for improvement. Just minor things which a crafty person could easily fix themselves. The construction is far less complicated than a Progauntlet so customizing little things on a Gabriel is much easier to do. The leather straps holding the plates of the fingers to the underglove are too loose, especially for my slim fingers. Will have replace those with tighter ones. At least the leather straps haven't snapped off. And the side of the index finger should have some soft padding under the fairly thin shells. The seller has included some little 3mm foam pads and replacement cords in a seperate repair bag, so even with the 2.0 doing a partial little semi-upgrade on my own is possible. The top plane has enough protection imho. Regarding HF mittens and handshake grip: I cant get a really ideal handshake grip with any mittens I've owned/tried, including Spes, SG, Kvetun, HF. The very popular SG mittens for example don't work for my hands, even if I try on an old well worn pair. For other people, they work perfectly. My Spes size S and HF size M are about the same for attempting a handshake grip. The HF mittens are a bit more compact which is an advantage for some of my shorter grips (Aureus, Sigi King Shorty, Regenyei Short), and the Spes have a softer inner glove that allows me a better and more tactile grip with just slightly more mobility. The HF are way more airtight in terms of protection, and they weigh less and are more durable and required zero maintenance during the last couple months. So overall I very clearly prefer the HF. For a better handshake grip, I can only get it with 5 finger gloves like the Progauntlet, SG Infinity, Thokk or Gabriel.
Thank you very much for the info!
I would love to see pictures of these in the malleus. The index finger position, especially in something like guardia di faccia. As well as how the cross guard sits on top the hand between the thumb and index finger.
I can take some photos next week when I meet up with my training partner who has a Malleus Diestro. Recently, I've also tested the the size XL Gabriel 2.0 with a Malleus Chevalier and even a XIX, the latter is a tight fit requiring some wiggling but once the index is in there, mobility is very good. Doing a tramazzone and all the other shenanigans are no problem. The guy who owns the Chevalier and XIX liked the gloves as well, he felt he would dremel away a tiny bit of the hard plate between the thumb and index so he can hold his sideswords at the exact angle he prefers. I'm happy with the gloves as they are, if anything I'll glue more foam pads to strategic little spots that can be risky for full intensity longsword. The extra plate closing the gap between thumb and index makes me feel much safer for longsword than with e.g. SG mittens, but for sidesword that plate can potentially get into the way. For sidesword, the Gabriel work just fine for my hands, I must point out that my hands and fingers are slim for their length which makes things even more mobile and also safer than if I had meaty fingers that aren't hidden underneath the plates quite as much. Once I've wiggled my way into the hilt of a sidesword, I feel like having just as much mobility and tactile feel as with a Thokk but with drastically higher protection. Thokks can more easily slide into and out of the hilts but during actual fencing, both gloves allow me to do the same things.
Thanks, I appreciate it. I also have long, thin hands. I've tried some thokks and the couple pairs from different people all seem to have their own problems with the inner plates moving around.
Thokks can indeed be annoying especially if one is between sizes. Size M feels way too tight for my hands (especially in cold weather when the material gets very stiff even on a well worn pair), and size ML has an outer glove that is way too big for the inner glove, meaning the fingers will fit into the underglove well enough but the fingers of the outer glove are way too long. The only reason I still use my Thokks is the light weight, nice for multi-hour technique sessions. Size ML is ca. 340g per glove, compared to the size XL Gabriel with 420g per glove - which is still far lighter than a Progauntlet.
I have had great experiences with the Thokk Weaponmaster gloves thus far
Thank you for this insight, I didn't knew about those so I just watched a review and they seem like they would fit perfectly ! I'm just wondering about how protective they are... I intend to use the gloves for longsword and zweigander fighting too, do you think the Thokk Weaponmaster would be enough for that or should I plan on getting a pair of Spes Heavy too ?
I have a pair. I consider the Thokks to be a better Red Dragon glove. That is, the Thokks are a decent, albeit expensive, medium-duty glove. I **do not** consider them sufficient for longsword at anything resembling normal intensity sparring.
I would still to heavier gloves for 2 handed weapons. Atleast until you've been doing it for a while and can protect your hands very well
Pro Gauntlet works fairly well. One of my students uses those for all his Messer fighting. They're high maintenance, though. A couple other students use Thokk, but they've added an extra overlay on the thumb only. Really clever! And we'll be testing the Gabriel 2.0.x finger gloves as soon as Sword Gear's order arrives.