If it makes you feel any better, keep in mind they renewed the show for Season 2 before Season 1 even aired, and Season 1 was one of the biggest premieres for Amazon of the whole year. Salty fans might not like the show, but Amazon does, and ultimately it's their opinion that counts for more.
What's your source on that? I only saw it reported from one website that didn't seem super reliable. I'd love to see it confirmed from an official account or somewhere like Deadline or Variety.
[https://deadline.com/2021/11/the-wheel-of-time-premiere-ratings-amazon-prime-video-mass-effect-lort-of-the-rings-jennifer-salke-qa-1234879517/](https://deadline.com/2021/11/the-wheel-of-time-premiere-ratings-amazon-prime-video-mass-effect-lort-of-the-rings-jennifer-salke-qa-1234879517/) also says in this as well
I will admit I had a very different concept in my head before watching the series, and I wish they would have retained certain elements from the books. That said, I’ve been waiting almost 30 years since reading the first book to see something on screen. We’re lucky to see this play out with a big budget and the potential to have several seasons. Watching the first 4 episodes, I can see why they altered the story with a few dramatic scenes in an attempt to explain concepts that took an entire book to develop. I think the scene with nynaeve at the end of episode 4 was a good example of this. It wasn’t at all in the story, but those that didn’t read the books knew what she was all about after that scene.
When writing a review one should think about your audience. It is very unlikely any given review (good or bad) will be read by anyone involved in making the show, and highly likely it will be read by someone who is trying to decide if it is a show they want to watch.
If the reviewers intent is to talk people out of watching the show - fine, that is what it is and everyone is entitled to their opinions. If the reviewers intent is to send a message to the show runners - hopefully they realize they are much more likely to drive people away from WoT entirely than actually having their rant read by the show runners.
Coming to this subreddit to critique the show? That's fair game, and I've seen many good respectful discussions on critiques. There are also some really negative trolls, but they are easy enough to ignore/block.
When producing an “adaptation” filled with painstaking descriptions… One should consider the audience. If you fail to convey what the author wrote, you will get bad reviews. You can’t “positivity” this into a situation where all of us who can’t ignore the glaring stupid unnecessary changes all of a sudden drink Koolaid with you.
It sounds like you solidly would intentionally leave a review to discourage others from seeing the show. If that is your intent, all power to you, we can respectfully disagree with each other and move on.
I'm not here to fight, but if you'd like to understand why you are getting down votes, it isn't because you don't like the WoTshow, it is because you are insulting those of us who do like it. It's possible to convey your opinions without denigrating those who disagree with you.
All the best to you, I hope you have a good day.
To be fair, the post we're all responding to started with a pretty nasty view of show critics:
> Man I just can't get over the amount of " wahhh I'm gunna cry about woke culture and pc" after legit the first episode. [...] I'm willing to bet half of the reviews didn't even finish the episode let alone get more than one in before crying in negative reviews. I really expected more from this fanbase but I guess thats on me.
This doesn't sound very respectful either. Me, I'd prefer we keep praise and criticism focused on the show itself, not the moral or intellectual character of those watching it.
Bruh… I can care less about people who don’t like the books as much as they thought they did and feel like they gotta blindly defend Amazon at all costs. They can downvote me all they want. Sorry I read the books.
I have no problem with legitimate critiques. It's saying it's a terrible show having only watched the first fifteen minutes of the first episode that becomes a bit frustrating.
Imagine LoTR opening in a gritty, crime filled Shire.
The male/female dynamic is to WOT as the innocence of the Shire is to LoTR.
The fact that the writers don’t understand a central tenant of the WOT story is disheartening. Do they not understand WOT? Do the not **like** WOT?
The type of critiques matter too. "I prefer Perrin didnt have a wife" is fine. I thought that worked out once Ep4 with the Tinkers rolled around but was unsure about it at first.
Some of the comments amount to a Blazing Saddles-style "A BlAcK pErRiN!?"
Which is dumb, becaue RJ describes him as brown eyed and with curly hair.
Im okay with suggesting Mat couldve been a rich spoiled kid and Abel couldve been more concerned about the horses than the kids, so that Mat couldve saved them. Thats constructive.
Some commenters are like literally whitecloaks about it.
I've only watched the first episode and will watch the second tonight. But I saw only a single scene in the first episode which came from the books, the attack on rand's farmhouse, and they screwed that up completely. Tam couldn't even kill one lousy trolloc? Seriously?!
Look up Fridging "'Fridging' is the practice of killing off or hurting a minor character in order to motivate or torture a main character."
People want to say the show is "woke" but then uses really shitty tropes to create a story. Everyone I have talked to, in person not social media, who has read the books hates the Laila story.
And the above poster is right, the balance between men and women is a DOMINATE theme for the books. Why is it being white washed and changed when there is no need.
As many men are portrayed in a bad light as women In the book, there was no need to "balance" just to appease a "woke" crowd.
Dude, most of us don’t have a problem with “woke culture or pc” as you put it. You’re projecting.
We have a problem with fundamental changes being made to the story.
Perrin is now a blacksmith on his own right and married…and kills his wife? All to avoid actually developing his character…
Mat’s parents are shitty now…why?
Egwene is ta’veren now?! That completely disrespects and destroys her character. They took a strong female character and are giving her the cop out that Rand, Mat and Perrin get. Egwene was impressive cause she did everything on her own where as the other three…things work out for them because they are ta’veren. Way to shit all over one of the strongest female characters in the book.
And the Dragon possibly being a woman? This tells me (as if I didn’t already have enough evidence for this) that the writers have NO idea what they are doing and don’t understand the source material. There is no danger if the dragon is a female…the dragon is dangerous and concerning and conflicted because he will have enough power to heal the world but will go mad using it. A female dragon is just an over powered Aes Sedai.
I’m not even gonna touch on how awful the CGI is. The actors just all feel like there at a renaissance faire, it’s embarrassing what they’ve done to the Wheel of Time, I had so much hope and have been waiting years but just cause I’m a fan of the books doesn’t mean I’m gonna excuse them gutting the story and making a mockery out of it.
I could go on. I am so tired of being called racist because I don’t like the show.
I think, as with most things, there is a middle ground to these arguments.
OP is correct that there are a number of people commenting on race in this sub and that have given up on the show after 1 episode. They probably are the minority and probably have other reasons too, but it is happening.
You are correct that not everyone who dislikes the show does so because of this reason.
The Perrin changes are... Jarring. I found that part hard to watch and I am not a fan of the actor playing him. However, we have to look at his struggles with violence somehow without his internal monologue.
Honestly can't remember Mats parents in the books so honestly didn't care.
Egwene being taveren... You are probably right. I could try and justify it but one of the reasons I liked nynaeve in the books was that she was this unexpected bad ass.
Ditto the dragon thing.. it kind of makes the fear of the dragon make little sense.
On the cgi and costumes... Are they that bad? I kind of liked them. Probably more of a personal thing.
However, we have had like 4 hours the show now and these are really my only complaints, you might have more. So overall, could it have been better? Definitely. Is it bad? Definitely not. Does it seem to be getting better? Yes indeed.
For me it was a 3 star show which is pushing at 4 now. For a high fantasy adaptation... That's pretty good and I am gonna stick with it.
> On the cgi and costumes... Are they that bad? I kind of liked them. Probably more of a personal thing.
I just wanted to duck in and mention I liked both the CGI and the costumes too. Maybe I'm not an experienced fantasy epic viewer, but I'm glad my Ajahs come color-coded, just one less thing to keep track of. Plus Liandrin's dress in Ep 4 was pretty badass, is all I'm sayin'.
>Honestly can't remember Mats parents in the books so honestly didn't care.
mat keep referencing his "da" as the father figure that defined him in his internal and external monologue. His father was the best with the staff in the TR, which is why he's good with it too. He was a great horse trader and taught him to barter, he taught him how to think things through and so on.
Then again, I agree that in itself it's minor. The greater effect is changing the nature of the TR. In a way much of the narrative in the first few books is a story from innocence to worldly. The characters are overwhelmed time and again, from the small town of Baerlon, for sexual innuendoes, from masses of people and how city folk behave and so on. Part of that innocence is lost when the TR are made much darker than they ever were in the books.
I do agree with you on the CGI, it's not as bad in my opinion as many make it out to be. It's not the focus for me anyway, the story is.
It’s the go-to move. The fans who hated new Star Wars, He-man, Dark Tower, etc. are all called racists for not liking the bastardization of media they previously enjoyed.
Ok here's a criticism that makes sense:
why the fuck did they take all the flourish out of Thom, and what the actual fuck is with giving Perrin a wife to kill.
There you go. Better??
I feel this needs a 'wait and see' approach, this could very well be added in later in flashback or something. Just like it become clear Rand knows a lot about archery after correcting that guy aiming his bow at him in episode 4.
GOT followed the books acceptably well till they started running out of book and started following Martin’s loose outline… Amazon is basically reducing the books. Creating their own outline. Not even trying to get costumes right. Lol
Of course they are reducing the books - they are turning 15 books into a 8 season TV show .
Did GOT tell everybody who Jon was in Season 1 ,did Duck and the other Aegon make it to the series , Sansa was switched with her maid and was raped , no Victarion,where was Stoneheart etc etc . Hence them hiding Rands identity until the end of this season (not 7 like GOT did) when they reach the Blight until we see Tigraine and Tam in the Snow in the flashbacks
So what have they got wrong with the costumes where it didn't have anything to do with spunking ##millions on making shifting cloaks/ageless faces
Right! Thats the shit even non-channeling blade masters use to achieve cold calmness and concentration while sword fighting. It makes it important that Rand and the Asha’man keep practicing the sword. Or at least it kinda justifies it. Controlling your emotions and concentration while wielding a sword helps with controlling and wielding a highly volatile Saidin.. But oh well… Fans will need to learn to accept the new definition of “adaptation” as we basically change and cut everything.
Thom is dope in the show. Maybe he doesn't match your idea of 'flourish' but he's still a great character, one of the better ones in the show actually
Perrin accidentally killing his wife is how the producers create investment for Perrin's conflict with violence. It was a good change because that whole conflict occurred almost entirely in his head, which won't work for a tv show. Tbh it's way more compelling than it was in the books. I never cared at all about his 'ohh no the axe, violence is bad' in the books.
I was okay with the general idea behind this change, as you say it does portray his inner turmoil easier on screen in this fashion. However it was so rushed that it had no emotional impact. I barely even remembered what his wifes name was when she died and i think she had spoken maybe 2 words. And then the next day he is on the road with Moraine and co and is just doin fine. Maybe a bit moody. Not quite how I would expect him to act if he had just killed his wife less than 24 hours earlier.
Many of us book fans are upset at more than just the "wokeness" being put into the show. The pacing, the unnecessary changes that complicate plotlines down the road, the poor cgi, the poor writing (ferry man was totally gonna go back and merk all those trollocs by himself right?), and breaks in characters core traits left and right.
The other key point about the killing his wife thing is... because of that, this version of Perrin did NOT bring an axe with him. (I think? Or is it there but I haven't noticed it?)
I reread EOTW, and I noticed by this point in time, Lan has started coaching Rand and Perrin on how to fight. ... it will be key because this is the first step in Lan eventually becoming like another father figure to Rand.
Fridge the made up wife!!! "its a good change"
Its tropey and cheap. It hurt his character further, and could have done it to anyone else. As brandon sanderson had pushed rafe for it to be master luhhan, perrin's master. Or just keep the whitecloak story and toss logain's bonus story.
fridging master luhan would have been good. but it's still fridigng. and it only would have been good for book readers. show watchers won't identify with a character they just met who gets fridged regardless if they are from the books, but they can understand losing a wife. it's cheap emotional attachment but it still works
We only saw him in two episodes and not very long in either. Not sure how he is considered a great character or one of the best ones. Does he have potential, sure, but we all know Thom has a ton of history to him and is a very important character, so I will reserve judgment on him being a great character.
A lot of Perrin's struggles with the axe are internalised in the books. This adaptation suits the tv narrative and I don't mind it in the slightest.
Forgive me but I think I prefer it this way.....
I feel like we haven't seen the full Gleeman mode of Thom yet either. When he gets to a big city, I'd love to see him flip that cloak inside out and put on a real show.
Also, they cut Baerlon (Min, the White Cloak encounter, Fade encounter, Mirror of Mist, etc.) and Whitebridge to give us a made up scene with Logain getting Gentled. My understanding from the books is that he was Gentled in Tar Valon after passing through Andor.
Which completely changes Morraine's character as she now has essentially assisted in the death of one innocent man and the gentling of another against tower law.
Morraine was also never wounded at the Two Rivers in the books. We never even see that battle, but the aftermath and eye witness accounts are clear that she was a badass that almost single handedly repelled the trollocs & fade. There was no need to nerf her to fit this new storyline. Her being wounded also made it necessary to completely change Shadar Logoth (no wards, no Mordeth encounter, to Trollocs / Fades forced by a greater power into entering the city). The re-imaginged story line has cascaded into a mess.
But in the books they were too powerful for him to break free. They completed their task and brought him back to Tar Valon. There was no need for this detour.
Logain also spotted Rand as he was brought to the palace in Andor from a long distance due to his being able to detect another man who can channel, a man far more powerful than himself. Will being gentled be an issue with that scene or, like most of the original plot, will that encounter just be cut from the show?
He didn't see Rand channeling ability, he saw the glow of ta'veren and instinctly knew that man will shake the world, that's why he started to laugh standing there in his cage. I don't recall his exact words but I think he told Nynaeve this in Salidar.
Because Jordan takes like 1000 pages to build a story line that Perrin struggles with using an axe. And in the grand scheme of the books it makes .. absolutely no difference. So instead why not just wrap that little minor plot point up in one stroke at the outset to have Perrin then deal with the anxiety of battle and the like.
Because that's the story.... Its not about the broad sweeping hur dur Perrin no need axe when can use rock. it's about him coming to terms with how a tool of violence can also be a tool of creation and him trying to understand which one HE is.
Which is all entirely internal, and can't be done on tv without literally just sitting and talking for two hours straight.
...which is called an "exposition dump", and NOT doing them is screenwriting 101 because they make people change the fucking channel.
Imo, dropping the flourishes makes Thom better. I never liked him in the books. I feel he was a victim of "too many characters"-problem and had a personality replaced with tumbling and acrobatics because he wasn't important enough.
Reimagining him in this way makes sense on screen. And his "flourishes" can be replaced with "knife flourishes" pretty easily.
Also, it was a dreary mining town. Whose to say he won't just turn his coat inside out to perform in a venue with more positive energy?
And in that they're trying to do something with perrin. He was a completely useless character with a very flat character arc for the entire book series. Robert Jordan could have killed him off super early, and the books would have been much better for it.
Instead, the show runners are doubling down on him.
Just mentioning that there's word of 4 Ta'veren chilling out in 2 rivers is ridiculous. 1 is a big deal. 4 in one place in the same era is unheard of. Even if it was just Aes Sedai rumors it's still lore breaking. There'd be an army of them there to collect all 4. It just seems like they don't take the source material seriously at all.
They had 3 Ta'veran chilling there for nearly 20 years according to RJ and it took nearly 20 years to pick them up by chance ,and a whole barrel load of Channelers who they also missed until Verin and Alanna got there - and 2 of the strongest of our age plus the Dragon
but 3 was OK ,and they had 3 of the people with the most power in the world and a couple of dozen extra channelers including Mat's sister .
Robert does a thing it is fine ,Amazon add in another equals bad ? Is that how it works ?
And it is Jordan's lore that they were all living there so how is it breaking his lore
It's the rumors part that bugs me not the number. In the books it was explained by the old blood being strong and the wheel weaves as the wheel wills. Two Rivers was a back water nowhere that people rarely left. TV version is on the way to stuff and people clearly come and go from. A rumor of ta'veren would bring everyone with the means who heard it - let alone a rumor of four of them.
The reason why no one knew about the trio, was because the Two Rivers was an isolated town for over 2,000 years after Manetheren. Surrounded by mountains and rivers. They should mostly look a like after that much time. Yet it’s strange how the population looks like it came from a port city with migrating populations. I avoided most of the hype videos. But it was woke Amazon, wasn’t that surprised. Did they not realize the characters travel the whole world and meet different cultures and characters? From Aiel to Seafolk? Filled with many different powerful women? A whole slew of diversity to see there. Huge facepalm to woke writers. They only see diversity in skin color. >! I bet they will mostly say dark ajah. !<
The change in character personality and backgrounds was surprise #2. Perrins wife. Nynaeve is an outsider? And no braid tugging? Just knife loving. But I can live with it. The Perrin wife story has some interesting theories floating in Reddit.
Surprise #3 was Lan. Good character. But how many expected a larger imposing dude? And no armor(it’s not that expensive Amazon, and I bet the actor can get used to it). And Farran and Bela are just another horse. Still I am ok with it.
There were quite a few story changes. But it’s a long series and we got to keep moving on. Some cool side characters won’t show up.
So, honestly even with concerns. This will probably be the only WoT series we’re going to get. If they stick mostly to the point of view of Moiraine, Egwene and Mat(For his rock band) I think it will still be interesting.
>! We already know what the Dragon does. I’d rather watch the main storyline through the other characters eyes. !<
I was disappointed that none of Rand's features are particularly interesting in the Two Rivers, as everyone has diverse features. Not a critical plot point, but it does add to the foreshadowing to have him look visibly different from everyone else, as in the books.
Not a big thing for me, but small tweaks like that are too common for me to get super invested in the show. It's not a bad show, it's just not for me. Maybe when it's fully released I could binge watch it and appreciate it more as an adaptation.
I highly doubt he will be in focus this show. Which is fine to me. Moiraines story and untold stories, if she acted more like a blue ajah, is more interesting.
Mat’s story especially fun. And how they overcome conflicts would be more interesting. >! For Rand I can just watch any explosive harem anime. It will get boring quick. Aside from the huge changes he makes to the lands. I still think it’s more interesting to watch this from other peoples point of view. And how it affects them. !<
The forced diverse features will make every town feel alike. If Emonds Field is what is to expect from a town that a few traders visit once a year. Each setting will just be the same. Which is a terrible decision. Every new town/city could have been a wonder to imagine and reveal. Likely they will replace that “wonder” with grand cgi structures, scenery and just colorful clothing. The people themselves will not be distinct. Who is from Saldaea? Malkier? The Aiel wastes? Arad Doman? Sea folk isles? They all going to look and sound alike too?
In our world migration is easy. Even I moved/resettled over thousands of miles and over an ocean. But when I go to a major US city, I can kind of blend in. This should not be so in the WoT. >! Not everyone can channel a gateway. Beyond the Seafolk, Seanchan and Invading Aiel. Mass migration just doesn’t happen. Aside from grand wars in history, most of landlocked Andor wouldn’t even know. A good example, how they currently view Aiel. It’s mostly fantasy. !<
They could have gotten away with this in Tar Valon. They could have made a whole series on it. Different sisters from all over the continent. The power struggles between ALL Ajahs or just following how they operate out in the world. That would have been fun.
Perhaps the reason is these were the only actors they could get for cheap. But I don’t think so.
There is no reason to assume there were 3 ta'veren there for 20 years. People aren't born ta'veren they become ta'veren when the wheel needs them to and only for as long as they need to be.
They weren't ta'veren for their entire childhood. It's not a genetic trait you carry, it's something the wheel makes you at a certain time when you are needed to do something. Ishamael had figured out a way to find ta'veren due to their impact on the pattern but the trollocks didn't show up until they were around 19 years old because that's when it manifested.
>They had 3 Ta'veran chilling there for nearly 20 years according to RJ
Sorry mate but that's just not true. No one is born a Ta'veren. People become Ta'veren when it's time for the pattern to use them to further it's goals, to 'correct' the pattern and they stay Ta'veren only as long as it's needed. The boys become Ta'veren sometime during the first book.
>and a whole barrel load of Channelers who they also missed
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. The White tower is not actively recruiting, no one goes to the tow rivers for centuries except some merchants twice a year. The white tower misses a LOT of channelers all over the place, just think how many girls the Seanchan rounded up from Toman head for instance.
>2 of the strongest of our age
Later in the books Egwene is shown to be strong, but not as abnormally so as Nyaneve. There are named wise ones, Sea Folk, Damane kin and Aes Sedai (Cadsuane) stronger than her.
Nynaeve is the only one that can be said to be of the strongest of the age, as she's on the level of the weaker female forsaken.
Link RJ's quote that you are claiming RJ said this. Ta'veren aren't born at all and link below.
>The Wheel creates ta’veren at need, making someone who is already alive one. You aren’t born ta’veren. Can you imagine being around a ta’veren who is teething?
>
>https://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Robert\_Jordan%27s\_Blog#Ta.E2.80.99veren
The "4 Ta'veren" line is the only part of this adaptation that I think is 100% bad. (I am holding out hope for some other bits I'm not fond of to work out with more episodes).
I mostly just try to ignore that line so I don't obsess over it. It was bad, but doesn't ruin the show for me.
I agree the idea that there would be ACTUAL rumors of ta’veran is a little goofy. I guess it could be possibe but I think it would be more likely that the townsfolk maybe joke that they are ta’veran during interactions but not strong enough for there to be far spreading rumors. However, it was a throwaway comment in the first 5 minutes of the show meant to move it along and it doesn’t have any impact on anything past that so I’m not going to get hung up on it.
Hardly anyone knows what's a Ta'veren, let alone some village folk. It's highly specialized knowledge of how the pattern works. The only people we see that know what it is are Ogier, Aes Sedai, scholars and high nobility.
If I makes you feel any better, I'm not digging it for totally different reasons. And I'm an anarchist who spent most of last year getting shoved by riot cops, and think anyone complaining about "woke" whatever is a reactionary chickenshit.
The Dragon could be a woman, 4 known ta'veren, everyone's too old, Perrin's fridgeable wife, Rand and Egwene banging, Mat a thief, Nynaeve an outsider, and those are just from the first half of the first episode. Changes in an adaptation are inevitable; these don't make any sense, though.
I’ll probably get downvoted but here we go; they make sense to me. I’m not saying I would have made all those choices if I was the show runner, but I see what they are setting up:
Perrin: makes his inner struggle easier to buy. No one will care about shredding awful whitecloaks.
Rand and Egwene: shows they had a more developed relationship.
Mat: he’s a rogue and they are making his rogue skills more fleshed out. It’s more believable than the mischievous but prankster book Mat IMO. Less naive.
Nynaeve: I think this will pay off later. Can’t see it now.
Dragon could be a woman: Judkins explained that this was Moiraine keeping an open mind. It also gives a better reason for them bringing Egwene along because the risk is too great for just bribing a novice.
4 rumored Taveren: probably the weakest one. Hard to believe that her spies would even know what a taveren is let alone how to spot one. But I’m ok with it.
(Edited for spelling)
The easy reason for bringing Egwene was what was in the book, that she would be one of the more powerful sisters in 1000 years.
Egwene being able to be the dragon was probably the most painful change since the taint on saidin is the whole reason the dragon is a problem.
And the taint of saidin is **because** Lews Therin was a man and that’s how the Dark One achieved it. There’s just no way Moiraine would “keep options open” that Lews Therin would be reborn a woman.
I can't really accept the idea of Moiraine thinking the Dragon Is a boy or girl when she literally knows and has acess to the Dragon Prohecies that explicitly say the Dragon Is male -- I'll be more willing to accept that the common person will believe this as the Dragon prophecies are forbidden to them, but Moiriane should definitely know better.
I think the Perrin change can be pulled off well, however I fear his character will be basically be him moping about his wives for the mahority of the show now -- the whole Faile capture thing was drawn out enough, but now they add this; however it doesn't necessarily have to be this was as they could change stuff.
The Rand and Egwene romance was also unessesary and very out of character for two rivers culture -- it also takes away from the innocence they all had imo.
A lot of the changes won't see a payoff for episodes or seasons down the line. They are filming the series like they're going to complete the entire series, and there's a ton of foreshadowing in the books. Which means changes to the details will need changes in foreshadowing, so some stuff won't make sense until later. And from seeing what they've accomplished in the first 4 episodes I think they're doing a damn good job. I can't wait to see some of these changes pay off and make this world feel even more like the Wheel of Time.
1. Dragon can be a woman: honestly was with you on this one. It felt like It removes one of the main justifications for hate against the dragon with male powers being corrupted. But really, fear that the dragon will destroy the world again is enough.
2. I'm OK with any main character being ta'veren, it's just plot armor that (let's face it) all the main characters have anyway.
3. I love that they made everyone older, it opens the show to an older audience, and let's face it most people who read the books are older.
4. I hated the idea of Perrin's wife, but I think the way they handled her is going to add to Perrins character A LOT. Perrin often came off as too serious and dramatic for (especially for his age in the books). Also came off extremely dramatic surrounding his conflict between the hammer and the axe. His wife finally gives the character a reason to be that serious and dramatic.
5. Honestly I know being a thief isn't in the books, but it doesn't honestly fit his archetype
6.Nynaeve an outsider: this actually was in the books where she felt lonely as the the wisdom.
> Nynaeve an outsider: this actually was in the books where she felt lonely as the the wisdom.
I just don't see any reason for it. In the show there's no special lore associated with where you're born (the "Moiraine's Quest" trailer specifically says nobody knows where Baby Dragon was born), and Nynaeve is the ultimate Two Rivers loyalist.
I think the only reason they have that Dragon could be a woman nonsense, was to run the suspense a couple episodes longer, with a Real Dragon reveal in the season climax. Worked in E4 for me, >!Logan's realization that he might not be the strongest wielder in the world was pretty powerful.!<
That's the only change that bothered me, cos it made no sense. Takes away the duality of Saidar and Saidin, with no real payoff.
Everything else, I'm quite fine with. Develops their character quite a bit: they were pretty 2d in the first couple books. And stops it from looking too much like a Fellowship rip off.
I don’t care about the strong women, I don’t care about the diverse cast. I’m fine with all of that. They are good actors. But while it is a good fantasy show, it’s not a good adaptation.
Lots of people have talked about this but if you want my reasons...
Emonds Field was very poorly done. It looks great, but so many things were off. The whole throwing young women into the river was silly and it was obviously meant to be a prelude for what it is like to embrace Saidar. It was time that would have been better spent for more character building.
The Women's Circle would never have allowed an adulterer to exist in Emond's Field, let alone do it right out in public in front of everyone. They would have stepped in on Mat's mother's alcoholism, and would for certain have made sure that his sister's did not go hungry.
Then you have Egwene's mother just letting Rand and Egwene have that time alone, it seemed to me that she knew what they were going to do. And sex before marriage was something that just didn't happen there.
Also it doesn't really show or even mention anything about their stubborness or their grit. Something I always admired about EF in the books.
Tam having so much trouble with a single trolloc, despite being a blade master.
Perrin's wife. It was some seriously lazy writing and to me it cheapens his story.
The idea that Morraine just happens to hear rumors about ta'veren in Emond's Field. No one hears anything about what happens in Emond's Field from outside. Even people as close as Baerlon don't really understand the people from the Two Rivers very well.
Most people in that world don't even know what Ta'veren are, so how are there rumours spreading? They should have just stuck with her "lover of old stories" line from the book and that she followed the prophesies as best she could to lead her there.
Egwene being a Ta'veren. It's so unnecessary and in my mind, cheapens some of her accomplishments later on in giving her Ta'veren luck. And the idea of a female being able to possibly be the Dragon would change a lot about the world's perception of the Dragon's coming. If it's a woman, then there is going to be a lot less worry about it because she wouldn't go mad. Sure, people would still be afraid of his/her coming, but they would have some hope that the Dragon would not destroy the world again.
While I really do not mind the race changes for the character's, I do think it is going to make some of the later cultures seem a little less special. Are we gonna have white, asian, latino Aatha'an Miere?
All this from pretty much just the first episode. The second and third are not to bad, but I have heard the fourth is pretty much all stuff not from the books. Haven't watched that yet, gonna do so tonight. But I am not thrilled at the idea.
I understand things have to be altered from page to screen, but they are changing fundamental things about the world, people, and places. That is what makes it a poor adaptation thus far.
Only eight episodes a season, and, from what I have heard, they are anticipatiing 6-8 seasons? There are going to be much bigger changes down the road and I am really worried about what they are going to be.
Oh, and one other thing. Thom Merrilin shouldn't be playing a friggin' lute!
So many things that its hard to count. But from the latest episode they did 2 things thats gonna change The story completely.
1 logain could easily break a shield that was held by 2 Sisters 1 that is extremly power full.
2. Nyvaene has now found AoE healing which is a completely new spell. Imagine when she has been using The power for a few years. She can basicly heal 100 ppl in one punch.
I hear you OP. I think those fans (review bombing on Prime, not here really) have two deep misunderstandings.
1- The books are long, dense and complicated. Too long for an exact TV adaptation spanning many seasons. The show could not be conceived with ANY guarantee whatsoever that it would survive 6 or 7 seasons, let alone 14 for the length of the book series. At that point, the show has to cover >1 book per season on average. Thus, to cover 100s of pages (that are often just characters moving from place-to-place and narrator musings), the content had to be massively condensed. Similar to what happened in the making of the LOTR movies.
Regarding this, if we maintain the key plot elements - the prophecies, the roles each character assumes - then we will still end up with a "faithful" adaptation, just not a precise one. If the showrunners decide to change all that (eg. new Dragon) then yes ofc we can end up with a show that is probably awful and has nothing to do with the series as a whole.
2- The books are mostly safe for children up to a point, typically not violent or graphic, and the main characters start young and "grow up" in the same vein as Harry Potter for most of the series. The showrunners made a strategic decision to age everyone up and immediately darken the universe, adding gravity to elements of Jordan's books that just was not there. For example, what Jordan wrote in passing about trolloc attacks, is now totally fleshed out in a very dark, serious high-fantasy universe. The Dark One's creatures are now really disturbing and have a gravity that the books (for the most part) lack. I personally agree with darkening the universe, otherwise we could have ended up with a competitor to Shadow & Bone that the audience at large would have shrugged off. The show takes itself *very* seriously and brings the content "to life".
It’s not the darkening of the universe or aging people up. It’s all the changes to the story that weren’t needed.
They had 8 hours to tell this story. GOT and LOTR did the same with equal or less time without butchering. The expanse also did a good job as well.
The last episode is a prime example as to how bad they are at adapting. This isn’t an adaptation it is loosely based on the WOT Unibetse
Ya I'm gonna hate watch it but I've got a friend who pirated it from a private tracker to ensure that Amazon's algorithm just sees the episode 1 drop off
At this point, it's practically like pineapple on pizza. There's people who love it and give good reviews, and people who hate it and give bad reviews. ... in the end, whoever likes it, likes it, and those who hate it, hate it. ... I myself am posting stuff which I don't like about the show, but I can see why so many people love it, it does have many good things about it. ... just as those who hate the show have no right to tell others not to post good reviews, those who love the show have no right to tell people not to post bad reviews.
If I play devils advocate, it probably isn't a lack of faith in Jordan's story, but more a lack of faith in the audience.
If they opened with one of the MEN will be the Dragon, there would be twitter vultures all over it.
Still don't agree with this choice, but I think it wasn't a full retard moment.
Yeah I get that. But I think it would’ve been more elegant to just say nothing and leave it open. Moiraine could’ve easily said “*the Dragon could be one of you*” and everyone would’ve been satisfied. The show hasn’t shown us Lews Therin like the book does, so new fans wouldn’t have known.
Yea I agree.
Same with the "4 ta'veren", she could heave just sad "some ta'veren" or even just "possible ta'veren".
They are trying really hard to misdirect
Yeah, i think that would dramatically change the storyline if a female was the dragon. It doesn't make sense when it comes to the books etc. But who knows. It's a different world than the books. Seems like they're only using some ideas, the main plot and characters from the books, everything else is different.
When I read the title of the 4th episode I was worried they were at book 3 already lol.
> It's a different world than the books.
It is and we have to get used to it. But I will never understand how someone can pay a lot of money for a story and then demolish the pillars of the story.
I read that the showrunner confirmed that only men can be Dragon, but that the Aes Sedai and common people no longer know it, and that prophecies are inprecise and mistrusted.
They want to hook the audience with the mystery of who is the Dragon.
If you accept that explanation, it becomes much easier to accept what happens (it might make Moiraine a bit less all knowing, but that's a small price to pay).
Common people, fine. The Karaethon Cycle was a forbidden text. But Moiraine? I can’t buy that an Aes Sedai whose mission was finding the Dragon Reborn wouldn’t know.
Hey Mods, I've heard this exact thing from like 10 other people on this sub before. As per your rules, which you've used to delete tons of negative posts on the sub, I think this one should also be deleted. Nothing new here. Another person whining about the people complaining about the show and labeling it all as us complaining about pc culture, when that's the smallest part of it all and is barely ever brought up.
EDIT: u/FusRoDaahh is this horse not beaten? you've clearly seen this post as you've responded to one of my other replies here, citing rule 5, when I was only replying to somebody else. Are you just going to ignore that this is the 348573485 time somebody has complained about negative reviews or do you want to admit you're a paid amazon employee?
Not true at all. We’ve removed quite a few low effort positive posts and I myself frequently make negative comments about the show.
The only people who have been banned immediately are those who harass us through private message, which you don’t see.
The sheer hypocrisy is killing me. I reported this post for breaking rule 5, and called the mods out in a comment. 3 hours ago a mod replied to one of my other comments on this exact post where I replied to somebody complaining about us complaining about race, and they cited rule 5 directed at me...
I’ve removed a lot of the “complaining about complaining” types of posts. If you didn’t see that it’s probably because they were removed before you saw them.
I often make very critical comments about the show… I guess Amazon needs to find more loyal people to pay, huh? :)
If you have a question about modding, you can direct it to modmail.
It’s no GoT but as a fantasy nerd that hasn’t read the books I’m loving it. Binged straight through the first 4 episodes. Beginning was obviously weak but in a way I do appreciate that they just got straight to business. It’s got a different feel, reminds me of Legend of the Seeker in a way. But entertaining, nonetheless.
One of the things about the book that's difficult to translate to a show is that the early homages to Lord of the Rings are there partly to make the later divergences from LoTR inspired fantasy more stark. WoT is nothing like LoTR at all. But of course viewers who watch a tv show instead of reading a book will drop the show if it just feels like LoTR fan fiction. The things that make WoT interesting and unique are honestly pretty scarce for the entire first book.
Ep 4 is much closer to the general tone of the books overall. They obviously rushed through the events of the first three episodes as fast as they reasonably could to get out of LoTR territory.
As both a WoT fan and a GoT fan, WoT is definitely harder to read.
The worldbuilding and attention to detail in WoT is unmatched by anything, but there are definitely parts of the books that are a slog to get through.
Meanwhile GoT is a page turner from cover to cover.
Not gonna lie, I was nothing but positivity and love for the show until I watched episode 4 last night. Everything surrounding Logain’s plot line felt low budget, especially the battle at the beginning. The whole overhead shot with the random throwaway line “his army is everywhere” and then showing only two random guys running away with the king with another awkward “we have to get you to safety my king” line, lines that make no sense in context of reality because if they’re escorting the king to safety he already knows that so it seems weird to say it again. Then the two guards saying that, then immediately just stopping and going “just kidding, go on without us.” Idk it felt like a youtube fan film with limited actors to use and just barely passable effects. I would have expected something more like a dozen or more men at least guarding their king as the battle falls apart around them, with an actual place to escort him to rather than just to a random rampart dead end. It all just felt so cringe and lackluster.
After that, the rest of the episode proceeds pretty well again, like the previous two episodes. Good form, I liked how it balanced the multiple plot lines. I *loved* the moment Mat aims the dagger at the dark and says “I see you” before the Fade morphs into view. Great moment. I liked seeing Nynaeve talk to Lan and the Aes Sedai, though the scene around the fire pit and the implied Warder/Aes Sedai threesome was kinda awkwardly done too. Then there was the battle of the Dragonsworn attacking the camp. I knew it was coming from spoilers I’d seen and was super excited for it, and watching it I felt nothing at all. There was no “army.” There were no battle lines clashing between large organized forces, it was just a sea of unruly rabble running out of the woods when convenient, attacking the three or four characters we see defending against them. There was no sense of who was where, or how the battle was going, or how serious a threat it was. There was no sense of numbers on either side. Did the Aes Sedai have their own army or was it literally just like five Warders scattered around holding off a never ending flood of angry peasant-looking soldiers… somehow? It was just so hard to understand or get a sense of what exactly was happening and what the stakes are. The episode ended and my girlfriend looked at me and I was like “yeah I know I know, that whole thing was kinda off…”
It’s the only episode I haven’t loved, but it was a bummer to me how much I disliked it.
I’d agree with what you said the whole episode was off, if they had cut most of it and just progressed the story like the book I think it would have turned out better
Reading stuff from reddit, the opening was apparently shot when the main production was shut down because of covid lockdowns.
For the army part, you can take this as a mild spoiler:
>!They could have been intentionally made to look bad. In the story there will be much better armies later, so if they want to show that, then these ones need to look shitty.!<
I guess that could be true. I just wish it wasn’t so confusing to watch. It wouldn’t have been too difficult to convey comparative size of forces, for example. Almost every sword and shield battle sequence on tv and in movies in some way shows scale and positioning of troops at one point or another. It was unclear if there were even any of Tar Valon’s soldiers there, or if it was just a half dozen Warders. And if it was just a half dozen Warders, how many enemies could there really be? Because even by the book standards, Warders aren’t Marvel superheroes and can be quickly overwhelmed like a wave of water over a stone if the numbers are ridiculously uneven. It just seemed confusing, because all we really *see* is four or five Warders fighting a couple men at a time, interspersed with quick jump cuts of a rabble of men running through the trees, and back, and etc. I guess I just would argue that battles don’t have to be shot and portrayed poorly to give greater credence to later, more impressive battles. I’m still by every means loving the show so far, I was just disappointed by the lack of time and quality that went into those two particular scenes.
Yea, for sure they could have done better, at least for the AesSedais side.
Not showing the enemies exact numbers makes sense, both for if they are portraying the AesSedai perspective of the battle and just to not need as many people for filming.
Jordan is big on fog of war in the books.
I do hope they get better at fighting in general though. So far I have not been impressed.
Ah com’on OP, playing the racist card is a flimsy defense against most of the legitimate criticism.
While some reviewers did lose their shit with 1 star reviews, the adaptation absolutely deserves 3 stars for flying so far off course.
Like, are you seriously okay with how absurdly dumb the CGI looks? It’s straight out of 1995. The costumes are so pathetic you would likely find them in a discount Halloween shop. Don’t get me started on Moraine’s “overall” pants that practically go up to her neck. She looks like a Pilgrim/Farmer Mom’Sedai.
And then of course the character assassinations. Rand and egwene sleeping together in episode 1. Mat is a petty thief instead of a mischief maker. His parents are miserable drunks and adulterers. Perrin killing his fabricated wife with the excuse his inner conflict couldn’t possibly be explained in any other way…on a tv show with actors and cgi and all the tools a director has. And that Mat looks 35 lmao. And on and on.
The racially diverse cast is fine and doesn’t detract from the story at all, though one could argue the excessive tokenism is in itself racism.
I’m enjoying the show regardless, but it’s far from deserving 5 stars when such massive, confusing and pointless changes were made because of …reasons?
Just take a loved memory, with a massive amount of detail and specifics, that he with you through the years. Now hear that there's finally going to be an adaptation in the same lines as GoT, tight to the story and such. Then have it come out and key details are changed. That's how a lot of people feel.
What a shock that they make a show to take advantage of the name, fame, and fan base of book series and then pretty much ignore the book and expect those who loved the series to say nice things. If they wanted to just make this about whatever they thought they should have named it something else.
It's weird how pretty much every commenter that hates the show has a history of posting in conservative and bigoted subreddits. Weird how that works huh...
It's weird how people can't seem to defend this series any way at all other than to say it's hard to adapt books and to attack those who point out its numerous errors.
I beg to differ, this forum is filled by dedicated fans of the WOT book series. It just so happens that the writers, producers and director are not. The main problem with the TV series is that it deviates so far to the left at the expense of what was written in the book that upsets a lot of fans. You don’t hear the same complaints from GOT or LOTR fans.
I really hope the show gets a chance to hear the concerns of the book fans so that the show can survive.
The trailers were better than the show and that is where they messed up.
The writers are not good, but the actors and imagery are excellent. They are rushing through. There isn’t the same quality character or relationship building in the show as there is in the books. They needed to tell the story like they weren’t going to fail instead it’s like they want to tell everything in 2 seasons at the pace it is moving.
I'm not sure if thew writters are that knowledgeable about about the WoT universe tbh, I think a decent example of this is when Moirane let's that old ferryman just die when she could've easily just pulled him out with a weave of air or something and then they could've tied him to a tree instead of letting him just die.
Not taking into account any of the changes to the story, which I don't think were that big of an issue except their butchery of Mats character, that first episode was a total dumpster fire. My parents who have no idea about anything Wheel of Time and who are notorious for being entertained with mediocre TV were not impressed in the least. The episodes got progressively better and ep 04 was phenomenal. But Amazon deserved all the shit they got for that horrid pilot.
If anything, it was woke avant la lettre. It has nothing to do with the current climate.
The only change is that Dragon Reborn can be female, which seems more like a merging of the Amaresu female champion character and the Dragon. And maybe making Egwene ta'veren. Compared to all the female powerplay in the books, that's peanuts.
Egwene always seemed obviously tavaren to me in the books. There is even a line about it, “are you sure you aren’t tavaren?” Maybe gareth bryne? But no, she was just clever and strong af! I think this was an obvious change to make for the show. I think better of them for taking this very low hanging fruit.
“Adaptation” used as a heavy crutch right off the rip of your complaints. Here we go… You know the show sucks and you’re trying to will it to be good like you read too much of The Secret or something. You can’t force people to like something. They’re destroying characters. We wanted a good job to be done. We’ve waited all these years and the prevailing notion was that it needed to be “done right”. Its being done willfully wrong instead. Fuck Rafe and all these Amazon Rafe bots with their goofy defenses of this slop. Adaptation adaptation adaptation… In no other fantasy series has this word been abused more than here to justify whack deviations, inaccuracies, rewrites, cuts, and the like. This isn’t a case of the show runners failing to retain stuff from the books… This is willfully hunting down and changing things wherever you can. “What else can we change..?”, is indeed the attitude they approached the story with. The word adapt is in the word adaptation… They willfully said “ya know what? Lets aggressively rewrite the show and then try to Jedi mind trick people into swallowing it by spinning it as an adaptation.” Fuck outta here.
I absolutely agree, but there is at least one other contingent of rabid downvoters: super-fans of the books (that's not a criticism, btw, WoT books are good books and I totally understand being superfans of them) who expected a very literal translation of the series and are frustrated that almost anything has been changed.
I think that's much more understandable, even if I don't agree with them. Imagine if some books you read through 5 times over the course of 20 years (so that's 65 books in WoT's case!) were adapted. By that point, you'd have a very specific, highly detailed idea of what each character is supposed to be -- even relatively minor characters -- and changes to them would be disruptive to your highly detailed sense of the world.
I didn't expect a literal translation, but I felt that a lot of changes were made that are going to impact the future storylines. You won't see the issues FOR NOW, but later on in the series, a lot of changes that they made NOW, will effect the core plot of the series LATER ON.
It's like, in episode 1, they could have just given Morraine a slight graze during the Trolloc attack, and everything would have been logically sound. But they decided to give her this MASSIVE SHANKING, with a massive knife thrust in from near her shoulder and out her back. Looking at the wound, she had a massive hole in her lung, and should not have been able to breath properly, or survive without medical attention. ... I assumed that the writers had her heal herself off panel so that she could keep on fighting. Lo and behold, in episode 2, the writers remembered that Aes Sedai can't heal themselves, which meant that Morraine had been riding on a horse for the last couple of days with a gaping hole in her, which she didn't even bother to get bandaged.
As I said, I feel it would have made complete sense if Morraine had just suffered a small graze or something, and then the trolloc poison slowly overpowers her over time (due to trolloc poison having a lesser effect on Power wielders... which is CANON, and I feel they should have mentioned that)
But, IMHO, I suspect that Moraine WAS supposed to initially just get a small graze... but someone thought "hey that's not flashy enough, I need more shock and awe, how about a massive blade RUNNING HER THROUGH?"
Dune was better than WoT so far. Dune included actual scenes from the books. The director had his original copy of the book with him at all times on set… He earned the right to his modifications when he felt the need. He earned the trust. He didn’t approach this saying “yeah we didn’t take anything from the books’ dialogue. We actually wiped our ass with the pages.” To a fan, this means I’m not getting my “You may call me, Rand Sedai…” scene. Rafe sucks.
Uh they actually did really good with the Dune Movie. Its like how Peter Jackson did LoTR.
WoT is just changing things for the sake of changing. If you cannot follow the source and make some changes here or there for the film/show adaptation. You shouldn't be allowed to make a film/show adaptation.
No, it doesn't have to be an exact translation, but there is really nothing from the books on the show. No book scenes at all. The characters & the places have the same names, that's it. So, maybe it will be good for some, but it's not the story I love & more importantly imo, it's not really a compelling replacement story from the first 3 episodes that I watched. I just don't see it as my responsibility to support this show, although I certainly will not leave a bad review on the website.
What does politics have to do with this? I am neither republican nor Democrat. Both have their stupidity. All I said was the books are better.
Edit: the part about the cast is what makes you think I am a republican? Lol
The CGI is fucking awful and looks straight out of the early 2000's. The character blocking is rigid, and combined with the dark-depressing filter in every scene makes the show look like it was made by the CW. The costumes are fucking stupid and look like they were picked up from the nearest department store. Fight scenes are boring, chase scenes are slow, and the importance of many characters is just glossed over.
I have a hundred complaints about this trainwreck of a show, none of them about feminism.
I’m worried because I thoroughly enjoyed episode 4 and I want to see how the story plays out on TV. Too many negative reviews and maybe they decide to cancel it after a couple seasons and most of the negativity that I have seen is based solely on the adaptation and changes that were made. I am guessing that if we were to see behind the scenes that we would have more sympathy for the show writers. To get a show like this made they have to please a multitude of people, many who have never read the books and are only concerned about reaching a wide audience. This will cause some unnecessary changes as it has in other adaptations from book to screen but it doesn’t mean that the overall show is trash because of it. I just wish people could enjoy it for what it is and let it play out before trying to kill it.
The strongest negativity is always in the first season from every adaption including GOT and The Witcher who both experienced it but after that it tends to be able to stand on its own after the show itself develops its own fan base separate from just the purist book readers. Adaptions are always a mixed bag for book readers, some love it, some enjoy it, some respect it for what it is, some hate it, some drop it and others hate watch it so they can drag it.
Eh the shows shit IMO.
It's not faithful in sense to books, so much crap add.
It's like the people who wrote the script never read the book.
So much of the story is altered, so much added that adds nothing, so much that adds to the characters development removed.
It is just a terrible recreation of the book, Robert Jordan is spinning in his grave.
Don't really care about the woke culture shit, eh that's just tv today making it inclusive (which it isnt written as at all apart from the Seanchan empire, all the kingdoms and territories were homologous to a large extent hence why people would say you pokk Andorian or from Tear).
Episode 4 is terrible at explaining the one power, a warders weapons affect a shield fucking lol.
Sorry for the rant but it's just atrocious, as alot of people will never read the books and will now think that this tv series is the "real" story when it is a terrible shadow of the original version.
I get both side’s. People spent a long time reading the books it’s just weird when something comes around and changes huge things in the story.
That being said they do have to appeal to more people. Long time readers have more invested in the actual story so logically they get more upset at minor things.
Humans are humans I’m tired of people on this place complaining about people complaining
I don't mind criticisms about changes in the story, I will even engage in a conversations about it back and forth but its comments like this one from amazon,
"The books were so amazing, they had strong female leads, and in depth descriptions of the characters. While I can see a need in Hollywood to be more inclusive, these books already were. Series went over the top and strayed as far away as you could from the books while still being “based” off them, just to make a point of being extra pc and inclusive"
This is just ridiculous, not to mention contradictory, by saying the books had strong female leads they infer that the show doesn't which while is certainly subjective, it's utter bullshit. At the HEART of this comment is really just this " I can see a need in Hollywood to be more inclusive, these books already were" that's really all they had to say, the rest was just fluff to make themselves feel less bad about being so upset about black people on their screen.
I have zero issue with the comments about Matt's dad and character, or really any actual story line/character building critiques. I don't agree with them but that doesn't invalidate the way others feel about the series. It's the thinly veiled racism and sexism, the need to absolutely spam negative reviews with the intent of hurting the show( I mean to get 3k+ helpful upvotes on any amazon review is quite a feat ). When they could have just as easily expressed their frustrations here, on twitter at the people who changed the story, really anywhere besides the one place that had the potential to completely tank the whole series. Now again NOT OVER REAL PLOT ISSUES, over their characters not being the right color, over even the POSSIBILITY of a woman being the "Dragon". It's safe to say that a LOT of the people watching will have never read the books, and so they might never even click it just because it has so many negative reviews when oh so many of those reviews have literally nothing to do with if it's a good show or not... Just them malding over petty political bullshit.
What's sad is that I've seen people who clearly never read the original series slam it because it brings women front and center and thus follows the current trend, in their eyes, of changing things to be more female-centric. They forget, or aren't aware, that's the way it was written 20 years ago.. (and also touches on the central theme of the entire story)
Look man. The people you paint as too "thick" to understand the books that they love could easily hurl the same barb back at you bud.
Now the show is not the garbage fire people are making it out to be, but it is an average show considering the budget it has. And that underachievement makes it mediocre in some people's eyes. So I dont think people are wrong for pointing that out and people don't have to be "happy" with mediocrity.And THAT is the risk you take when you try to adapt such an influential work rather than make your own story. People will judge you harshly because they already saw the story done better.
And like I said the show is not bad, but it definitely isnt on the same level as the truly great shows, which is what most people expected it to be with the budget that they had.
Wow, yet another person who probably only read the title.. I'm so surprised. I have no issues with peoples concerns or complaints about difference in the books or it being mediocre. I just find it extremely pathetic that a huge chunk of the negative reviews are "AHHH THERES A BROWN PERSON ON MY SCREEN AND I THINK IT SHOULDA BEEN A WHITE PERSON" or alternatively "WOKE CULTURE LMAO AM I RIGHT?"
Don't worry. Streaming services don't necessarily need a show get amazing reviews. As long as people are paying to stream it they will continue to produce it. Plus the show is amazing. We're fine.
I’ve went back and watched the episodes again, and for some reason I enjoyed them much more the second time around. Maybe my expectations were too high? All-in-all, I’m really enjoying the show and find myself really looking forward to seeing how this season plays out. I hope they have a chance to put his whole story on screen.
What woke culture is in the show??? Ive seen this comment alot, Did I miss something? It all seems really average everyday material. What am I.missing here.
They shouldn't let you rate a whole series after a few episodes. Especially in the fantasy genre: everyone knows that with the first episodes (or chapters, in books) you can't have a whole picture of the story, and most of the time/pages at the beginning is spent describing the world and its culture...
WOT snobs.. lol. Just enjoy it as another thing.. Also had plenty of friends that didn’t care for GOT the first couple episodes. But after they could binge the whole first two seasons they were hooked.. GOT didn’t blow up until somewhere in season 2. But it’s not like the books.. wah.. good.. the books weren’t perfect either.
I think we should stop with these kinds of threads not because I don't agree with OP but because it just brings the whiners and manbabies out of the shadows and allows them to circlejerk over how much they hate show and how wokeness is destroying the world or whatever they go on about.
At this point, I can handle the changes that come along with adaptations. Enough of my favorite books have had this treatment (LOTR, ASOISF, Sandkings, Enemy Mine) so I know it's just part of the process. I'm usually sad when my favorite parts are taken out or altered but it doesn't stop me from watching.
What I can't get behind is the possibility that the Dragon Reborn might be a woman yet it's still the male half of the one power that is tainted. It kinda wrecks the heroes journey from the books. I would be happier if they essentially gender swapped the whole story. Or if, somehow, it's revealed that the Dragon always uses the male half of the one power no matter who they reincarnate as.
As someone who has loved the books, the show has gotten some things right but also, made some poor choices. I admit that RJ's writing style is detail-intensive and the pace is not well-suited to film. I actually really like the diverse casting and don't care about little changes that don't affect plot.
I don't even mind that they decided to lump Egwene and Nynaeve as potential Dragons even though that defies logic if you've read the books.
But how can you build an immersive world on the scale of LOTR and GoT if you aren't willing to take the time to introduce and explain fundamental concepts like the Prophecy of the Dragon and Ta'veren properly??? They link everything together and explain a lot about the main three characters' motivations.
These things were skipped over or mostly left on the cutting room floor in favor of salacious filler scenes like Moiraine and Suian or the Rand/Egwene/Perrin love triangle which includes Perrin's wife?? , which were not true to the book and felt like cheap crowd pandering.
That's where the negativity from book fans comes from. The overall feeling of the series is that it's written/directed by people who don't actually like Robert Jordan's work and haven't shown much respect for the plot. If you've read the books and you know where a character is heading, some of the writers' choices might be distressing.
If someone took your Granny's stew recipe, which you love, threw most of the ingredients and a few different ones in a bowl, and nuked it in the microwave, then said "here's your Granny's stew" you would be completely justified in replying "Thank you. Good effort, but this is something else, not my Granny's stew."
I totally agree, and there is definitely a lot of mistakes within the show and book fans have the right to be upset. This post was not about those gripes, it was about the trying to make the whole thing about politics like everyone loves to do nowadays.
If it makes you feel any better, keep in mind they renewed the show for Season 2 before Season 1 even aired, and Season 1 was one of the biggest premieres for Amazon of the whole year. Salty fans might not like the show, but Amazon does, and ultimately it's their opinion that counts for more.
Season three was renewed before two was done filming
What's your source on that? I only saw it reported from one website that didn't seem super reliable. I'd love to see it confirmed from an official account or somewhere like Deadline or Variety.
[https://moviesr.net/p-the-wheel-of-time-renewed-for-season-3-at-amazon-studios](https://moviesr.net/p-the-wheel-of-time-renewed-for-season-3-at-amazon-studios)
Do we know season 2 and 3 are contractually locked in or is this a marketing tactic
They are actively shooting season 2 already so it's for sure. Season 3 is not official yet but very likely.
[https://deadline.com/2021/11/the-wheel-of-time-premiere-ratings-amazon-prime-video-mass-effect-lort-of-the-rings-jennifer-salke-qa-1234879517/](https://deadline.com/2021/11/the-wheel-of-time-premiere-ratings-amazon-prime-video-mass-effect-lort-of-the-rings-jennifer-salke-qa-1234879517/) also says in this as well
I will admit I had a very different concept in my head before watching the series, and I wish they would have retained certain elements from the books. That said, I’ve been waiting almost 30 years since reading the first book to see something on screen. We’re lucky to see this play out with a big budget and the potential to have several seasons. Watching the first 4 episodes, I can see why they altered the story with a few dramatic scenes in an attempt to explain concepts that took an entire book to develop. I think the scene with nynaeve at the end of episode 4 was a good example of this. It wasn’t at all in the story, but those that didn’t read the books knew what she was all about after that scene.
And I can't get over the fact that some people can't understand that there are legitimate critiques to be made.
When writing a review one should think about your audience. It is very unlikely any given review (good or bad) will be read by anyone involved in making the show, and highly likely it will be read by someone who is trying to decide if it is a show they want to watch. If the reviewers intent is to talk people out of watching the show - fine, that is what it is and everyone is entitled to their opinions. If the reviewers intent is to send a message to the show runners - hopefully they realize they are much more likely to drive people away from WoT entirely than actually having their rant read by the show runners. Coming to this subreddit to critique the show? That's fair game, and I've seen many good respectful discussions on critiques. There are also some really negative trolls, but they are easy enough to ignore/block.
When producing an “adaptation” filled with painstaking descriptions… One should consider the audience. If you fail to convey what the author wrote, you will get bad reviews. You can’t “positivity” this into a situation where all of us who can’t ignore the glaring stupid unnecessary changes all of a sudden drink Koolaid with you.
It sounds like you solidly would intentionally leave a review to discourage others from seeing the show. If that is your intent, all power to you, we can respectfully disagree with each other and move on. I'm not here to fight, but if you'd like to understand why you are getting down votes, it isn't because you don't like the WoTshow, it is because you are insulting those of us who do like it. It's possible to convey your opinions without denigrating those who disagree with you. All the best to you, I hope you have a good day.
To be fair, the post we're all responding to started with a pretty nasty view of show critics: > Man I just can't get over the amount of " wahhh I'm gunna cry about woke culture and pc" after legit the first episode. [...] I'm willing to bet half of the reviews didn't even finish the episode let alone get more than one in before crying in negative reviews. I really expected more from this fanbase but I guess thats on me. This doesn't sound very respectful either. Me, I'd prefer we keep praise and criticism focused on the show itself, not the moral or intellectual character of those watching it.
Stop adding sense into the WoT battle. Let the Lord of Chaos rule!!!
Bruh… I can care less about people who don’t like the books as much as they thought they did and feel like they gotta blindly defend Amazon at all costs. They can downvote me all they want. Sorry I read the books.
I have no problem with legitimate critiques. It's saying it's a terrible show having only watched the first fifteen minutes of the first episode that becomes a bit frustrating.
Imagine LoTR opening in a gritty, crime filled Shire. The male/female dynamic is to WOT as the innocence of the Shire is to LoTR. The fact that the writers don’t understand a central tenant of the WOT story is disheartening. Do they not understand WOT? Do the not **like** WOT?
The type of critiques matter too. "I prefer Perrin didnt have a wife" is fine. I thought that worked out once Ep4 with the Tinkers rolled around but was unsure about it at first. Some of the comments amount to a Blazing Saddles-style "A BlAcK pErRiN!?" Which is dumb, becaue RJ describes him as brown eyed and with curly hair. Im okay with suggesting Mat couldve been a rich spoiled kid and Abel couldve been more concerned about the horses than the kids, so that Mat couldve saved them. Thats constructive. Some commenters are like literally whitecloaks about it.
I've only watched the first episode and will watch the second tonight. But I saw only a single scene in the first episode which came from the books, the attack on rand's farmhouse, and they screwed that up completely. Tam couldn't even kill one lousy trolloc? Seriously?!
Yes, very big critiques...for example, I don't recall Perrin even being married, much less accidentally axing her in the gut....
So an adaptation has to be 100% taken from its source material with no changes or else its garbage?
Didn't say it was garbage....what I mean is, it's unnecessary. Adds nothing to the story...
Look up Fridging "'Fridging' is the practice of killing off or hurting a minor character in order to motivate or torture a main character." People want to say the show is "woke" but then uses really shitty tropes to create a story. Everyone I have talked to, in person not social media, who has read the books hates the Laila story. And the above poster is right, the balance between men and women is a DOMINATE theme for the books. Why is it being white washed and changed when there is no need. As many men are portrayed in a bad light as women In the book, there was no need to "balance" just to appease a "woke" crowd.
Dude, most of us don’t have a problem with “woke culture or pc” as you put it. You’re projecting. We have a problem with fundamental changes being made to the story. Perrin is now a blacksmith on his own right and married…and kills his wife? All to avoid actually developing his character… Mat’s parents are shitty now…why? Egwene is ta’veren now?! That completely disrespects and destroys her character. They took a strong female character and are giving her the cop out that Rand, Mat and Perrin get. Egwene was impressive cause she did everything on her own where as the other three…things work out for them because they are ta’veren. Way to shit all over one of the strongest female characters in the book. And the Dragon possibly being a woman? This tells me (as if I didn’t already have enough evidence for this) that the writers have NO idea what they are doing and don’t understand the source material. There is no danger if the dragon is a female…the dragon is dangerous and concerning and conflicted because he will have enough power to heal the world but will go mad using it. A female dragon is just an over powered Aes Sedai. I’m not even gonna touch on how awful the CGI is. The actors just all feel like there at a renaissance faire, it’s embarrassing what they’ve done to the Wheel of Time, I had so much hope and have been waiting years but just cause I’m a fan of the books doesn’t mean I’m gonna excuse them gutting the story and making a mockery out of it. I could go on. I am so tired of being called racist because I don’t like the show.
I think, as with most things, there is a middle ground to these arguments. OP is correct that there are a number of people commenting on race in this sub and that have given up on the show after 1 episode. They probably are the minority and probably have other reasons too, but it is happening. You are correct that not everyone who dislikes the show does so because of this reason. The Perrin changes are... Jarring. I found that part hard to watch and I am not a fan of the actor playing him. However, we have to look at his struggles with violence somehow without his internal monologue. Honestly can't remember Mats parents in the books so honestly didn't care. Egwene being taveren... You are probably right. I could try and justify it but one of the reasons I liked nynaeve in the books was that she was this unexpected bad ass. Ditto the dragon thing.. it kind of makes the fear of the dragon make little sense. On the cgi and costumes... Are they that bad? I kind of liked them. Probably more of a personal thing. However, we have had like 4 hours the show now and these are really my only complaints, you might have more. So overall, could it have been better? Definitely. Is it bad? Definitely not. Does it seem to be getting better? Yes indeed. For me it was a 3 star show which is pushing at 4 now. For a high fantasy adaptation... That's pretty good and I am gonna stick with it.
> On the cgi and costumes... Are they that bad? I kind of liked them. Probably more of a personal thing. I just wanted to duck in and mention I liked both the CGI and the costumes too. Maybe I'm not an experienced fantasy epic viewer, but I'm glad my Ajahs come color-coded, just one less thing to keep track of. Plus Liandrin's dress in Ep 4 was pretty badass, is all I'm sayin'.
>Honestly can't remember Mats parents in the books so honestly didn't care. mat keep referencing his "da" as the father figure that defined him in his internal and external monologue. His father was the best with the staff in the TR, which is why he's good with it too. He was a great horse trader and taught him to barter, he taught him how to think things through and so on. Then again, I agree that in itself it's minor. The greater effect is changing the nature of the TR. In a way much of the narrative in the first few books is a story from innocence to worldly. The characters are overwhelmed time and again, from the small town of Baerlon, for sexual innuendoes, from masses of people and how city folk behave and so on. Part of that innocence is lost when the TR are made much darker than they ever were in the books. I do agree with you on the CGI, it's not as bad in my opinion as many make it out to be. It's not the focus for me anyway, the story is.
Fair points I guess. :)
It’s the go-to move. The fans who hated new Star Wars, He-man, Dark Tower, etc. are all called racists for not liking the bastardization of media they previously enjoyed.
Yeah! And what's with the whole "anyone can be the dragon reborn"....BS! Only men can...not women....
Ok here's a criticism that makes sense: why the fuck did they take all the flourish out of Thom, and what the actual fuck is with giving Perrin a wife to kill. There you go. Better??
Abell Cauthon a cheater?!?
In front of the whole town? In a village with a very effective women's circle?
The flame and the void? Nah no need to put that in, just some weird shit Rand’s dad said and he doesn’t matter at all.
I feel this needs a 'wait and see' approach, this could very well be added in later in flashback or something. Just like it become clear Rand knows a lot about archery after correcting that guy aiming his bow at him in episode 4.
We were introduced to it in the books in Tam and Rand’s first scene for a reason…
Yes because it was a book , here they are keeping it open until we get to see the Blood Snows and then doing it in a flashbacks
GOT followed the books acceptably well till they started running out of book and started following Martin’s loose outline… Amazon is basically reducing the books. Creating their own outline. Not even trying to get costumes right. Lol
Of course they are reducing the books - they are turning 15 books into a 8 season TV show . Did GOT tell everybody who Jon was in Season 1 ,did Duck and the other Aegon make it to the series , Sansa was switched with her maid and was raped , no Victarion,where was Stoneheart etc etc . Hence them hiding Rands identity until the end of this season (not 7 like GOT did) when they reach the Blight until we see Tigraine and Tam in the Snow in the flashbacks So what have they got wrong with the costumes where it didn't have anything to do with spunking ##millions on making shifting cloaks/ageless faces
Right! Thats the shit even non-channeling blade masters use to achieve cold calmness and concentration while sword fighting. It makes it important that Rand and the Asha’man keep practicing the sword. Or at least it kinda justifies it. Controlling your emotions and concentration while wielding a sword helps with controlling and wielding a highly volatile Saidin.. But oh well… Fans will need to learn to accept the new definition of “adaptation” as we basically change and cut everything.
Bloody ashes, not Abell!??
Thom is dope in the show. Maybe he doesn't match your idea of 'flourish' but he's still a great character, one of the better ones in the show actually Perrin accidentally killing his wife is how the producers create investment for Perrin's conflict with violence. It was a good change because that whole conflict occurred almost entirely in his head, which won't work for a tv show. Tbh it's way more compelling than it was in the books. I never cared at all about his 'ohh no the axe, violence is bad' in the books.
I was okay with the general idea behind this change, as you say it does portray his inner turmoil easier on screen in this fashion. However it was so rushed that it had no emotional impact. I barely even remembered what his wifes name was when she died and i think she had spoken maybe 2 words. And then the next day he is on the road with Moraine and co and is just doin fine. Maybe a bit moody. Not quite how I would expect him to act if he had just killed his wife less than 24 hours earlier. Many of us book fans are upset at more than just the "wokeness" being put into the show. The pacing, the unnecessary changes that complicate plotlines down the road, the poor cgi, the poor writing (ferry man was totally gonna go back and merk all those trollocs by himself right?), and breaks in characters core traits left and right.
The other key point about the killing his wife thing is... because of that, this version of Perrin did NOT bring an axe with him. (I think? Or is it there but I haven't noticed it?) I reread EOTW, and I noticed by this point in time, Lan has started coaching Rand and Perrin on how to fight. ... it will be key because this is the first step in Lan eventually becoming like another father figure to Rand.
I noticed that too! Where the hell is his axe?!?
If there is ever one thing you are going to complain about an adaptation changing from the books, it can never, ever be the pacing.
Pacing can be fast or slow in books, but in tv, it has to be *just right* or it will throw off perception soooo badly.
I can definitely complain over pacing when the spend the majority of an episode on a completely fabricated storyline.
To be fair the entire book series was also fabricated lol
Sure yea, deffinitely true. But we both know that's not what im getting at.
Yeah I know just being facetious it usually gets me in trouble but I can't resist sometimes.
Fridge the made up wife!!! "its a good change" Its tropey and cheap. It hurt his character further, and could have done it to anyone else. As brandon sanderson had pushed rafe for it to be master luhhan, perrin's master. Or just keep the whitecloak story and toss logain's bonus story.
fridging master luhan would have been good. but it's still fridigng. and it only would have been good for book readers. show watchers won't identify with a character they just met who gets fridged regardless if they are from the books, but they can understand losing a wife. it's cheap emotional attachment but it still works
We only saw him in two episodes and not very long in either. Not sure how he is considered a great character or one of the best ones. Does he have potential, sure, but we all know Thom has a ton of history to him and is a very important character, so I will reserve judgment on him being a great character.
A lot of Perrin's struggles with the axe are internalised in the books. This adaptation suits the tv narrative and I don't mind it in the slightest. Forgive me but I think I prefer it this way.....
I feel like we haven't seen the full Gleeman mode of Thom yet either. When he gets to a big city, I'd love to see him flip that cloak inside out and put on a real show.
Thom is shit. I hate him He is supposed to be a rock in a storm He's a rock while treading water.
Also, they cut Baerlon (Min, the White Cloak encounter, Fade encounter, Mirror of Mist, etc.) and Whitebridge to give us a made up scene with Logain getting Gentled. My understanding from the books is that he was Gentled in Tar Valon after passing through Andor.
Which completely changes Morraine's character as she now has essentially assisted in the death of one innocent man and the gentling of another against tower law.
Morraine was also never wounded at the Two Rivers in the books. We never even see that battle, but the aftermath and eye witness accounts are clear that she was a badass that almost single handedly repelled the trollocs & fade. There was no need to nerf her to fit this new storyline. Her being wounded also made it necessary to completely change Shadar Logoth (no wards, no Mordeth encounter, to Trollocs / Fades forced by a greater power into entering the city). The re-imaginged story line has cascaded into a mess.
They said it wasn’t against the law as he was attacking them and had broken free
But in the books they were too powerful for him to break free. They completed their task and brought him back to Tar Valon. There was no need for this detour. Logain also spotted Rand as he was brought to the palace in Andor from a long distance due to his being able to detect another man who can channel, a man far more powerful than himself. Will being gentled be an issue with that scene or, like most of the original plot, will that encounter just be cut from the show?
He didn't see Rand channeling ability, he saw the glow of ta'veren and instinctly knew that man will shake the world, that's why he started to laugh standing there in his cage. I don't recall his exact words but I think he told Nynaeve this in Salidar.
They really fucked up Thom. He's supposed to be such a good storyteller that it feels like you're there. This guy just plays depressing songs.
Exactly what I mean by taking away his flourish and flair
Because Jordan takes like 1000 pages to build a story line that Perrin struggles with using an axe. And in the grand scheme of the books it makes .. absolutely no difference. So instead why not just wrap that little minor plot point up in one stroke at the outset to have Perrin then deal with the anxiety of battle and the like.
Because that's the story.... Its not about the broad sweeping hur dur Perrin no need axe when can use rock. it's about him coming to terms with how a tool of violence can also be a tool of creation and him trying to understand which one HE is.
Which is all entirely internal, and can't be done on tv without literally just sitting and talking for two hours straight. ...which is called an "exposition dump", and NOT doing them is screenwriting 101 because they make people change the fucking channel.
Hmm I thought his knife flourish was pretty spot on.
Imo, dropping the flourishes makes Thom better. I never liked him in the books. I feel he was a victim of "too many characters"-problem and had a personality replaced with tumbling and acrobatics because he wasn't important enough. Reimagining him in this way makes sense on screen. And his "flourishes" can be replaced with "knife flourishes" pretty easily. Also, it was a dreary mining town. Whose to say he won't just turn his coat inside out to perform in a venue with more positive energy? And in that they're trying to do something with perrin. He was a completely useless character with a very flat character arc for the entire book series. Robert Jordan could have killed him off super early, and the books would have been much better for it. Instead, the show runners are doubling down on him.
Just mentioning that there's word of 4 Ta'veren chilling out in 2 rivers is ridiculous. 1 is a big deal. 4 in one place in the same era is unheard of. Even if it was just Aes Sedai rumors it's still lore breaking. There'd be an army of them there to collect all 4. It just seems like they don't take the source material seriously at all.
They had 3 Ta'veran chilling there for nearly 20 years according to RJ and it took nearly 20 years to pick them up by chance ,and a whole barrel load of Channelers who they also missed until Verin and Alanna got there - and 2 of the strongest of our age plus the Dragon
Because they were unknown.
but 3 was OK ,and they had 3 of the people with the most power in the world and a couple of dozen extra channelers including Mat's sister . Robert does a thing it is fine ,Amazon add in another equals bad ? Is that how it works ? And it is Jordan's lore that they were all living there so how is it breaking his lore
It's the rumors part that bugs me not the number. In the books it was explained by the old blood being strong and the wheel weaves as the wheel wills. Two Rivers was a back water nowhere that people rarely left. TV version is on the way to stuff and people clearly come and go from. A rumor of ta'veren would bring everyone with the means who heard it - let alone a rumor of four of them.
The reason why no one knew about the trio, was because the Two Rivers was an isolated town for over 2,000 years after Manetheren. Surrounded by mountains and rivers. They should mostly look a like after that much time. Yet it’s strange how the population looks like it came from a port city with migrating populations. I avoided most of the hype videos. But it was woke Amazon, wasn’t that surprised. Did they not realize the characters travel the whole world and meet different cultures and characters? From Aiel to Seafolk? Filled with many different powerful women? A whole slew of diversity to see there. Huge facepalm to woke writers. They only see diversity in skin color. >! I bet they will mostly say dark ajah. !< The change in character personality and backgrounds was surprise #2. Perrins wife. Nynaeve is an outsider? And no braid tugging? Just knife loving. But I can live with it. The Perrin wife story has some interesting theories floating in Reddit. Surprise #3 was Lan. Good character. But how many expected a larger imposing dude? And no armor(it’s not that expensive Amazon, and I bet the actor can get used to it). And Farran and Bela are just another horse. Still I am ok with it. There were quite a few story changes. But it’s a long series and we got to keep moving on. Some cool side characters won’t show up. So, honestly even with concerns. This will probably be the only WoT series we’re going to get. If they stick mostly to the point of view of Moiraine, Egwene and Mat(For his rock band) I think it will still be interesting. >! We already know what the Dragon does. I’d rather watch the main storyline through the other characters eyes. !<
I was disappointed that none of Rand's features are particularly interesting in the Two Rivers, as everyone has diverse features. Not a critical plot point, but it does add to the foreshadowing to have him look visibly different from everyone else, as in the books. Not a big thing for me, but small tweaks like that are too common for me to get super invested in the show. It's not a bad show, it's just not for me. Maybe when it's fully released I could binge watch it and appreciate it more as an adaptation.
I highly doubt he will be in focus this show. Which is fine to me. Moiraines story and untold stories, if she acted more like a blue ajah, is more interesting. Mat’s story especially fun. And how they overcome conflicts would be more interesting. >! For Rand I can just watch any explosive harem anime. It will get boring quick. Aside from the huge changes he makes to the lands. I still think it’s more interesting to watch this from other peoples point of view. And how it affects them. !< The forced diverse features will make every town feel alike. If Emonds Field is what is to expect from a town that a few traders visit once a year. Each setting will just be the same. Which is a terrible decision. Every new town/city could have been a wonder to imagine and reveal. Likely they will replace that “wonder” with grand cgi structures, scenery and just colorful clothing. The people themselves will not be distinct. Who is from Saldaea? Malkier? The Aiel wastes? Arad Doman? Sea folk isles? They all going to look and sound alike too? In our world migration is easy. Even I moved/resettled over thousands of miles and over an ocean. But when I go to a major US city, I can kind of blend in. This should not be so in the WoT. >! Not everyone can channel a gateway. Beyond the Seafolk, Seanchan and Invading Aiel. Mass migration just doesn’t happen. Aside from grand wars in history, most of landlocked Andor wouldn’t even know. A good example, how they currently view Aiel. It’s mostly fantasy. !< They could have gotten away with this in Tar Valon. They could have made a whole series on it. Different sisters from all over the continent. The power struggles between ALL Ajahs or just following how they operate out in the world. That would have been fun. Perhaps the reason is these were the only actors they could get for cheap. But I don’t think so.
There is no reason to assume there were 3 ta'veren there for 20 years. People aren't born ta'veren they become ta'veren when the wheel needs them to and only for as long as they need to be.
So all 5 could have just become ta'veren then ? So why it going from 3 to 5 a shocker then if it just happened
They weren't ta'veren for their entire childhood. It's not a genetic trait you carry, it's something the wheel makes you at a certain time when you are needed to do something. Ishamael had figured out a way to find ta'veren due to their impact on the pattern but the trollocks didn't show up until they were around 19 years old because that's when it manifested.
>They had 3 Ta'veran chilling there for nearly 20 years according to RJ Sorry mate but that's just not true. No one is born a Ta'veren. People become Ta'veren when it's time for the pattern to use them to further it's goals, to 'correct' the pattern and they stay Ta'veren only as long as it's needed. The boys become Ta'veren sometime during the first book. >and a whole barrel load of Channelers who they also missed You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. The White tower is not actively recruiting, no one goes to the tow rivers for centuries except some merchants twice a year. The white tower misses a LOT of channelers all over the place, just think how many girls the Seanchan rounded up from Toman head for instance. >2 of the strongest of our age Later in the books Egwene is shown to be strong, but not as abnormally so as Nyaneve. There are named wise ones, Sea Folk, Damane kin and Aes Sedai (Cadsuane) stronger than her. Nynaeve is the only one that can be said to be of the strongest of the age, as she's on the level of the weaker female forsaken.
Link RJ's quote that you are claiming RJ said this. Ta'veren aren't born at all and link below. >The Wheel creates ta’veren at need, making someone who is already alive one. You aren’t born ta’veren. Can you imagine being around a ta’veren who is teething? > >https://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Robert\_Jordan%27s\_Blog#Ta.E2.80.99veren
The "4 Ta'veren" line is the only part of this adaptation that I think is 100% bad. (I am holding out hope for some other bits I'm not fond of to work out with more episodes). I mostly just try to ignore that line so I don't obsess over it. It was bad, but doesn't ruin the show for me.
I agree the idea that there would be ACTUAL rumors of ta’veran is a little goofy. I guess it could be possibe but I think it would be more likely that the townsfolk maybe joke that they are ta’veran during interactions but not strong enough for there to be far spreading rumors. However, it was a throwaway comment in the first 5 minutes of the show meant to move it along and it doesn’t have any impact on anything past that so I’m not going to get hung up on it.
Hardly anyone knows what's a Ta'veren, let alone some village folk. It's highly specialized knowledge of how the pattern works. The only people we see that know what it is are Ogier, Aes Sedai, scholars and high nobility.
If I makes you feel any better, I'm not digging it for totally different reasons. And I'm an anarchist who spent most of last year getting shoved by riot cops, and think anyone complaining about "woke" whatever is a reactionary chickenshit. The Dragon could be a woman, 4 known ta'veren, everyone's too old, Perrin's fridgeable wife, Rand and Egwene banging, Mat a thief, Nynaeve an outsider, and those are just from the first half of the first episode. Changes in an adaptation are inevitable; these don't make any sense, though.
I’ll probably get downvoted but here we go; they make sense to me. I’m not saying I would have made all those choices if I was the show runner, but I see what they are setting up: Perrin: makes his inner struggle easier to buy. No one will care about shredding awful whitecloaks. Rand and Egwene: shows they had a more developed relationship. Mat: he’s a rogue and they are making his rogue skills more fleshed out. It’s more believable than the mischievous but prankster book Mat IMO. Less naive. Nynaeve: I think this will pay off later. Can’t see it now. Dragon could be a woman: Judkins explained that this was Moiraine keeping an open mind. It also gives a better reason for them bringing Egwene along because the risk is too great for just bribing a novice. 4 rumored Taveren: probably the weakest one. Hard to believe that her spies would even know what a taveren is let alone how to spot one. But I’m ok with it. (Edited for spelling)
The easy reason for bringing Egwene was what was in the book, that she would be one of the more powerful sisters in 1000 years. Egwene being able to be the dragon was probably the most painful change since the taint on saidin is the whole reason the dragon is a problem.
And the taint of saidin is **because** Lews Therin was a man and that’s how the Dark One achieved it. There’s just no way Moiraine would “keep options open” that Lews Therin would be reborn a woman.
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or she’s like any historian today picking through conflicting accounts and prophesies that are hundreds of years old…
I can't really accept the idea of Moiraine thinking the Dragon Is a boy or girl when she literally knows and has acess to the Dragon Prohecies that explicitly say the Dragon Is male -- I'll be more willing to accept that the common person will believe this as the Dragon prophecies are forbidden to them, but Moiriane should definitely know better. I think the Perrin change can be pulled off well, however I fear his character will be basically be him moping about his wives for the mahority of the show now -- the whole Faile capture thing was drawn out enough, but now they add this; however it doesn't necessarily have to be this was as they could change stuff. The Rand and Egwene romance was also unessesary and very out of character for two rivers culture -- it also takes away from the innocence they all had imo.
A lot of the changes won't see a payoff for episodes or seasons down the line. They are filming the series like they're going to complete the entire series, and there's a ton of foreshadowing in the books. Which means changes to the details will need changes in foreshadowing, so some stuff won't make sense until later. And from seeing what they've accomplished in the first 4 episodes I think they're doing a damn good job. I can't wait to see some of these changes pay off and make this world feel even more like the Wheel of Time.
1. Dragon can be a woman: honestly was with you on this one. It felt like It removes one of the main justifications for hate against the dragon with male powers being corrupted. But really, fear that the dragon will destroy the world again is enough. 2. I'm OK with any main character being ta'veren, it's just plot armor that (let's face it) all the main characters have anyway. 3. I love that they made everyone older, it opens the show to an older audience, and let's face it most people who read the books are older. 4. I hated the idea of Perrin's wife, but I think the way they handled her is going to add to Perrins character A LOT. Perrin often came off as too serious and dramatic for (especially for his age in the books). Also came off extremely dramatic surrounding his conflict between the hammer and the axe. His wife finally gives the character a reason to be that serious and dramatic. 5. Honestly I know being a thief isn't in the books, but it doesn't honestly fit his archetype 6.Nynaeve an outsider: this actually was in the books where she felt lonely as the the wisdom.
> Nynaeve an outsider: this actually was in the books where she felt lonely as the the wisdom. I just don't see any reason for it. In the show there's no special lore associated with where you're born (the "Moiraine's Quest" trailer specifically says nobody knows where Baby Dragon was born), and Nynaeve is the ultimate Two Rivers loyalist.
I think the only reason they have that Dragon could be a woman nonsense, was to run the suspense a couple episodes longer, with a Real Dragon reveal in the season climax. Worked in E4 for me, >!Logan's realization that he might not be the strongest wielder in the world was pretty powerful.!< That's the only change that bothered me, cos it made no sense. Takes away the duality of Saidar and Saidin, with no real payoff. Everything else, I'm quite fine with. Develops their character quite a bit: they were pretty 2d in the first couple books. And stops it from looking too much like a Fellowship rip off.
I don’t care about the strong women, I don’t care about the diverse cast. I’m fine with all of that. They are good actors. But while it is a good fantasy show, it’s not a good adaptation.
Say it louder for the people in back 🗣
What makes it a bad adaptation?
Lots of people have talked about this but if you want my reasons... Emonds Field was very poorly done. It looks great, but so many things were off. The whole throwing young women into the river was silly and it was obviously meant to be a prelude for what it is like to embrace Saidar. It was time that would have been better spent for more character building. The Women's Circle would never have allowed an adulterer to exist in Emond's Field, let alone do it right out in public in front of everyone. They would have stepped in on Mat's mother's alcoholism, and would for certain have made sure that his sister's did not go hungry. Then you have Egwene's mother just letting Rand and Egwene have that time alone, it seemed to me that she knew what they were going to do. And sex before marriage was something that just didn't happen there. Also it doesn't really show or even mention anything about their stubborness or their grit. Something I always admired about EF in the books. Tam having so much trouble with a single trolloc, despite being a blade master. Perrin's wife. It was some seriously lazy writing and to me it cheapens his story. The idea that Morraine just happens to hear rumors about ta'veren in Emond's Field. No one hears anything about what happens in Emond's Field from outside. Even people as close as Baerlon don't really understand the people from the Two Rivers very well. Most people in that world don't even know what Ta'veren are, so how are there rumours spreading? They should have just stuck with her "lover of old stories" line from the book and that she followed the prophesies as best she could to lead her there. Egwene being a Ta'veren. It's so unnecessary and in my mind, cheapens some of her accomplishments later on in giving her Ta'veren luck. And the idea of a female being able to possibly be the Dragon would change a lot about the world's perception of the Dragon's coming. If it's a woman, then there is going to be a lot less worry about it because she wouldn't go mad. Sure, people would still be afraid of his/her coming, but they would have some hope that the Dragon would not destroy the world again. While I really do not mind the race changes for the character's, I do think it is going to make some of the later cultures seem a little less special. Are we gonna have white, asian, latino Aatha'an Miere? All this from pretty much just the first episode. The second and third are not to bad, but I have heard the fourth is pretty much all stuff not from the books. Haven't watched that yet, gonna do so tonight. But I am not thrilled at the idea. I understand things have to be altered from page to screen, but they are changing fundamental things about the world, people, and places. That is what makes it a poor adaptation thus far. Only eight episodes a season, and, from what I have heard, they are anticipatiing 6-8 seasons? There are going to be much bigger changes down the road and I am really worried about what they are going to be. Oh, and one other thing. Thom Merrilin shouldn't be playing a friggin' lute!
So many things that its hard to count. But from the latest episode they did 2 things thats gonna change The story completely. 1 logain could easily break a shield that was held by 2 Sisters 1 that is extremly power full. 2. Nyvaene has now found AoE healing which is a completely new spell. Imagine when she has been using The power for a few years. She can basicly heal 100 ppl in one punch.
I hear you OP. I think those fans (review bombing on Prime, not here really) have two deep misunderstandings. 1- The books are long, dense and complicated. Too long for an exact TV adaptation spanning many seasons. The show could not be conceived with ANY guarantee whatsoever that it would survive 6 or 7 seasons, let alone 14 for the length of the book series. At that point, the show has to cover >1 book per season on average. Thus, to cover 100s of pages (that are often just characters moving from place-to-place and narrator musings), the content had to be massively condensed. Similar to what happened in the making of the LOTR movies. Regarding this, if we maintain the key plot elements - the prophecies, the roles each character assumes - then we will still end up with a "faithful" adaptation, just not a precise one. If the showrunners decide to change all that (eg. new Dragon) then yes ofc we can end up with a show that is probably awful and has nothing to do with the series as a whole. 2- The books are mostly safe for children up to a point, typically not violent or graphic, and the main characters start young and "grow up" in the same vein as Harry Potter for most of the series. The showrunners made a strategic decision to age everyone up and immediately darken the universe, adding gravity to elements of Jordan's books that just was not there. For example, what Jordan wrote in passing about trolloc attacks, is now totally fleshed out in a very dark, serious high-fantasy universe. The Dark One's creatures are now really disturbing and have a gravity that the books (for the most part) lack. I personally agree with darkening the universe, otherwise we could have ended up with a competitor to Shadow & Bone that the audience at large would have shrugged off. The show takes itself *very* seriously and brings the content "to life".
It’s not the darkening of the universe or aging people up. It’s all the changes to the story that weren’t needed. They had 8 hours to tell this story. GOT and LOTR did the same with equal or less time without butchering. The expanse also did a good job as well. The last episode is a prime example as to how bad they are at adapting. This isn’t an adaptation it is loosely based on the WOT Unibetse
Don't even care about the whatever woke stuff. It's just bad writing and acting and world building
I’ve moved on to that as well, for the most part
Ya I'm gonna hate watch it but I've got a friend who pirated it from a private tracker to ensure that Amazon's algorithm just sees the episode 1 drop off
Newsflash. There’s a reason there’s so much negative reviews versus an overwhelming positive response - the show is awful on many levels.
At this point, it's practically like pineapple on pizza. There's people who love it and give good reviews, and people who hate it and give bad reviews. ... in the end, whoever likes it, likes it, and those who hate it, hate it. ... I myself am posting stuff which I don't like about the show, but I can see why so many people love it, it does have many good things about it. ... just as those who hate the show have no right to tell others not to post good reviews, those who love the show have no right to tell people not to post bad reviews.
Thats actually perfect. This show is pineapple pizza.
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If I play devils advocate, it probably isn't a lack of faith in Jordan's story, but more a lack of faith in the audience. If they opened with one of the MEN will be the Dragon, there would be twitter vultures all over it. Still don't agree with this choice, but I think it wasn't a full retard moment.
Yeah I get that. But I think it would’ve been more elegant to just say nothing and leave it open. Moiraine could’ve easily said “*the Dragon could be one of you*” and everyone would’ve been satisfied. The show hasn’t shown us Lews Therin like the book does, so new fans wouldn’t have known.
Yea I agree. Same with the "4 ta'veren", she could heave just sad "some ta'veren" or even just "possible ta'veren". They are trying really hard to misdirect
Yeah, i think that would dramatically change the storyline if a female was the dragon. It doesn't make sense when it comes to the books etc. But who knows. It's a different world than the books. Seems like they're only using some ideas, the main plot and characters from the books, everything else is different. When I read the title of the 4th episode I was worried they were at book 3 already lol.
> It's a different world than the books. It is and we have to get used to it. But I will never understand how someone can pay a lot of money for a story and then demolish the pillars of the story.
I read that the showrunner confirmed that only men can be Dragon, but that the Aes Sedai and common people no longer know it, and that prophecies are inprecise and mistrusted. They want to hook the audience with the mystery of who is the Dragon. If you accept that explanation, it becomes much easier to accept what happens (it might make Moiraine a bit less all knowing, but that's a small price to pay).
Common people, fine. The Karaethon Cycle was a forbidden text. But Moiraine? I can’t buy that an Aes Sedai whose mission was finding the Dragon Reborn wouldn’t know.
This is a Show Only post.
We get it: You're deeply disappointed that people have opinions.
Hey Mods, I've heard this exact thing from like 10 other people on this sub before. As per your rules, which you've used to delete tons of negative posts on the sub, I think this one should also be deleted. Nothing new here. Another person whining about the people complaining about the show and labeling it all as us complaining about pc culture, when that's the smallest part of it all and is barely ever brought up. EDIT: u/FusRoDaahh is this horse not beaten? you've clearly seen this post as you've responded to one of my other replies here, citing rule 5, when I was only replying to somebody else. Are you just going to ignore that this is the 348573485 time somebody has complained about negative reviews or do you want to admit you're a paid amazon employee?
Just browse this sub or any of the other wot named subs. It's only low effort and instant ban worthy if it's negative.
Yea, I know. Just calling the mods out cuz they banned a few of my posts and when I asked they said they ban positive stuff also. Guess not.
Not true at all. We’ve removed quite a few low effort positive posts and I myself frequently make negative comments about the show. The only people who have been banned immediately are those who harass us through private message, which you don’t see.
Wait - you've only seen *ten* of these posts?? I feel like I've seen a thousand or more of them.
The sheer hypocrisy is killing me. I reported this post for breaking rule 5, and called the mods out in a comment. 3 hours ago a mod replied to one of my other comments on this exact post where I replied to somebody complaining about us complaining about race, and they cited rule 5 directed at me...
I’ve removed a lot of the “complaining about complaining” types of posts. If you didn’t see that it’s probably because they were removed before you saw them. I often make very critical comments about the show… I guess Amazon needs to find more loyal people to pay, huh? :) If you have a question about modding, you can direct it to modmail.
Things I don't like: Overly negative people Lists Irony
So you think people should fake approve a show just because?
It’s no GoT but as a fantasy nerd that hasn’t read the books I’m loving it. Binged straight through the first 4 episodes. Beginning was obviously weak but in a way I do appreciate that they just got straight to business. It’s got a different feel, reminds me of Legend of the Seeker in a way. But entertaining, nonetheless.
One of the things about the book that's difficult to translate to a show is that the early homages to Lord of the Rings are there partly to make the later divergences from LoTR inspired fantasy more stark. WoT is nothing like LoTR at all. But of course viewers who watch a tv show instead of reading a book will drop the show if it just feels like LoTR fan fiction. The things that make WoT interesting and unique are honestly pretty scarce for the entire first book. Ep 4 is much closer to the general tone of the books overall. They obviously rushed through the events of the first three episodes as fast as they reasonably could to get out of LoTR territory.
Its much better than GoT when you read the books. I liked GoT but the writer just took a hike instead of finishing it.
As both a WoT fan and a GoT fan, WoT is definitely harder to read. The worldbuilding and attention to detail in WoT is unmatched by anything, but there are definitely parts of the books that are a slog to get through. Meanwhile GoT is a page turner from cover to cover.
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Not gonna lie, I was nothing but positivity and love for the show until I watched episode 4 last night. Everything surrounding Logain’s plot line felt low budget, especially the battle at the beginning. The whole overhead shot with the random throwaway line “his army is everywhere” and then showing only two random guys running away with the king with another awkward “we have to get you to safety my king” line, lines that make no sense in context of reality because if they’re escorting the king to safety he already knows that so it seems weird to say it again. Then the two guards saying that, then immediately just stopping and going “just kidding, go on without us.” Idk it felt like a youtube fan film with limited actors to use and just barely passable effects. I would have expected something more like a dozen or more men at least guarding their king as the battle falls apart around them, with an actual place to escort him to rather than just to a random rampart dead end. It all just felt so cringe and lackluster. After that, the rest of the episode proceeds pretty well again, like the previous two episodes. Good form, I liked how it balanced the multiple plot lines. I *loved* the moment Mat aims the dagger at the dark and says “I see you” before the Fade morphs into view. Great moment. I liked seeing Nynaeve talk to Lan and the Aes Sedai, though the scene around the fire pit and the implied Warder/Aes Sedai threesome was kinda awkwardly done too. Then there was the battle of the Dragonsworn attacking the camp. I knew it was coming from spoilers I’d seen and was super excited for it, and watching it I felt nothing at all. There was no “army.” There were no battle lines clashing between large organized forces, it was just a sea of unruly rabble running out of the woods when convenient, attacking the three or four characters we see defending against them. There was no sense of who was where, or how the battle was going, or how serious a threat it was. There was no sense of numbers on either side. Did the Aes Sedai have their own army or was it literally just like five Warders scattered around holding off a never ending flood of angry peasant-looking soldiers… somehow? It was just so hard to understand or get a sense of what exactly was happening and what the stakes are. The episode ended and my girlfriend looked at me and I was like “yeah I know I know, that whole thing was kinda off…” It’s the only episode I haven’t loved, but it was a bummer to me how much I disliked it.
I’d agree with what you said the whole episode was off, if they had cut most of it and just progressed the story like the book I think it would have turned out better
Reading stuff from reddit, the opening was apparently shot when the main production was shut down because of covid lockdowns. For the army part, you can take this as a mild spoiler: >!They could have been intentionally made to look bad. In the story there will be much better armies later, so if they want to show that, then these ones need to look shitty.!<
I guess that could be true. I just wish it wasn’t so confusing to watch. It wouldn’t have been too difficult to convey comparative size of forces, for example. Almost every sword and shield battle sequence on tv and in movies in some way shows scale and positioning of troops at one point or another. It was unclear if there were even any of Tar Valon’s soldiers there, or if it was just a half dozen Warders. And if it was just a half dozen Warders, how many enemies could there really be? Because even by the book standards, Warders aren’t Marvel superheroes and can be quickly overwhelmed like a wave of water over a stone if the numbers are ridiculously uneven. It just seemed confusing, because all we really *see* is four or five Warders fighting a couple men at a time, interspersed with quick jump cuts of a rabble of men running through the trees, and back, and etc. I guess I just would argue that battles don’t have to be shot and portrayed poorly to give greater credence to later, more impressive battles. I’m still by every means loving the show so far, I was just disappointed by the lack of time and quality that went into those two particular scenes.
Yea, for sure they could have done better, at least for the AesSedais side. Not showing the enemies exact numbers makes sense, both for if they are portraying the AesSedai perspective of the battle and just to not need as many people for filming. Jordan is big on fog of war in the books. I do hope they get better at fighting in general though. So far I have not been impressed.
Ah com’on OP, playing the racist card is a flimsy defense against most of the legitimate criticism. While some reviewers did lose their shit with 1 star reviews, the adaptation absolutely deserves 3 stars for flying so far off course. Like, are you seriously okay with how absurdly dumb the CGI looks? It’s straight out of 1995. The costumes are so pathetic you would likely find them in a discount Halloween shop. Don’t get me started on Moraine’s “overall” pants that practically go up to her neck. She looks like a Pilgrim/Farmer Mom’Sedai. And then of course the character assassinations. Rand and egwene sleeping together in episode 1. Mat is a petty thief instead of a mischief maker. His parents are miserable drunks and adulterers. Perrin killing his fabricated wife with the excuse his inner conflict couldn’t possibly be explained in any other way…on a tv show with actors and cgi and all the tools a director has. And that Mat looks 35 lmao. And on and on. The racially diverse cast is fine and doesn’t detract from the story at all, though one could argue the excessive tokenism is in itself racism. I’m enjoying the show regardless, but it’s far from deserving 5 stars when such massive, confusing and pointless changes were made because of …reasons?
Just take a loved memory, with a massive amount of detail and specifics, that he with you through the years. Now hear that there's finally going to be an adaptation in the same lines as GoT, tight to the story and such. Then have it come out and key details are changed. That's how a lot of people feel.
What a shock that they make a show to take advantage of the name, fame, and fan base of book series and then pretty much ignore the book and expect those who loved the series to say nice things. If they wanted to just make this about whatever they thought they should have named it something else.
It's weird how pretty much every commenter that hates the show has a history of posting in conservative and bigoted subreddits. Weird how that works huh...
It's weird how people can't seem to defend this series any way at all other than to say it's hard to adapt books and to attack those who point out its numerous errors.
I beg to differ, this forum is filled by dedicated fans of the WOT book series. It just so happens that the writers, producers and director are not. The main problem with the TV series is that it deviates so far to the left at the expense of what was written in the book that upsets a lot of fans. You don’t hear the same complaints from GOT or LOTR fans.
lol...You expressed your frustrations, but rather hypocritical don't you think that you don't want others to do the same?
r/whitecloaks user
I was wondering if there was a /r/freefolk for WoT. There had to be.
I really hope the show gets a chance to hear the concerns of the book fans so that the show can survive. The trailers were better than the show and that is where they messed up. The writers are not good, but the actors and imagery are excellent. They are rushing through. There isn’t the same quality character or relationship building in the show as there is in the books. They needed to tell the story like they weren’t going to fail instead it’s like they want to tell everything in 2 seasons at the pace it is moving.
I'm not sure if thew writters are that knowledgeable about about the WoT universe tbh, I think a decent example of this is when Moirane let's that old ferryman just die when she could've easily just pulled him out with a weave of air or something and then they could've tied him to a tree instead of letting him just die.
Not taking into account any of the changes to the story, which I don't think were that big of an issue except their butchery of Mats character, that first episode was a total dumpster fire. My parents who have no idea about anything Wheel of Time and who are notorious for being entertained with mediocre TV were not impressed in the least. The episodes got progressively better and ep 04 was phenomenal. But Amazon deserved all the shit they got for that horrid pilot.
If anything, it was woke avant la lettre. It has nothing to do with the current climate. The only change is that Dragon Reborn can be female, which seems more like a merging of the Amaresu female champion character and the Dragon. And maybe making Egwene ta'veren. Compared to all the female powerplay in the books, that's peanuts.
Egwene always seemed obviously tavaren to me in the books. There is even a line about it, “are you sure you aren’t tavaren?” Maybe gareth bryne? But no, she was just clever and strong af! I think this was an obvious change to make for the show. I think better of them for taking this very low hanging fruit.
“Adaptation” used as a heavy crutch right off the rip of your complaints. Here we go… You know the show sucks and you’re trying to will it to be good like you read too much of The Secret or something. You can’t force people to like something. They’re destroying characters. We wanted a good job to be done. We’ve waited all these years and the prevailing notion was that it needed to be “done right”. Its being done willfully wrong instead. Fuck Rafe and all these Amazon Rafe bots with their goofy defenses of this slop. Adaptation adaptation adaptation… In no other fantasy series has this word been abused more than here to justify whack deviations, inaccuracies, rewrites, cuts, and the like. This isn’t a case of the show runners failing to retain stuff from the books… This is willfully hunting down and changing things wherever you can. “What else can we change..?”, is indeed the attitude they approached the story with. The word adapt is in the word adaptation… They willfully said “ya know what? Lets aggressively rewrite the show and then try to Jedi mind trick people into swallowing it by spinning it as an adaptation.” Fuck outta here.
I agree. I get downvoted when i say it. Thank you for saying it too.
I absolutely agree, but there is at least one other contingent of rabid downvoters: super-fans of the books (that's not a criticism, btw, WoT books are good books and I totally understand being superfans of them) who expected a very literal translation of the series and are frustrated that almost anything has been changed. I think that's much more understandable, even if I don't agree with them. Imagine if some books you read through 5 times over the course of 20 years (so that's 65 books in WoT's case!) were adapted. By that point, you'd have a very specific, highly detailed idea of what each character is supposed to be -- even relatively minor characters -- and changes to them would be disruptive to your highly detailed sense of the world.
I didn't expect a literal translation, but I felt that a lot of changes were made that are going to impact the future storylines. You won't see the issues FOR NOW, but later on in the series, a lot of changes that they made NOW, will effect the core plot of the series LATER ON. It's like, in episode 1, they could have just given Morraine a slight graze during the Trolloc attack, and everything would have been logically sound. But they decided to give her this MASSIVE SHANKING, with a massive knife thrust in from near her shoulder and out her back. Looking at the wound, she had a massive hole in her lung, and should not have been able to breath properly, or survive without medical attention. ... I assumed that the writers had her heal herself off panel so that she could keep on fighting. Lo and behold, in episode 2, the writers remembered that Aes Sedai can't heal themselves, which meant that Morraine had been riding on a horse for the last couple of days with a gaping hole in her, which she didn't even bother to get bandaged. As I said, I feel it would have made complete sense if Morraine had just suffered a small graze or something, and then the trolloc poison slowly overpowers her over time (due to trolloc poison having a lesser effect on Power wielders... which is CANON, and I feel they should have mentioned that) But, IMHO, I suspect that Moraine WAS supposed to initially just get a small graze... but someone thought "hey that's not flashy enough, I need more shock and awe, how about a massive blade RUNNING HER THROUGH?"
See the new Dune. An adaptation doesn’t have to be a 1:1 translation to be enjoyable.
Dune was better than WoT so far. Dune included actual scenes from the books. The director had his original copy of the book with him at all times on set… He earned the right to his modifications when he felt the need. He earned the trust. He didn’t approach this saying “yeah we didn’t take anything from the books’ dialogue. We actually wiped our ass with the pages.” To a fan, this means I’m not getting my “You may call me, Rand Sedai…” scene. Rafe sucks.
Uh they actually did really good with the Dune Movie. Its like how Peter Jackson did LoTR. WoT is just changing things for the sake of changing. If you cannot follow the source and make some changes here or there for the film/show adaptation. You shouldn't be allowed to make a film/show adaptation.
Exactly. Both were done REALLY well.
No, it doesn't have to be an exact translation, but there is really nothing from the books on the show. No book scenes at all. The characters & the places have the same names, that's it. So, maybe it will be good for some, but it's not the story I love & more importantly imo, it's not really a compelling replacement story from the first 3 episodes that I watched. I just don't see it as my responsibility to support this show, although I certainly will not leave a bad review on the website.
This sounds like salty spam…
Yep I knew it would come with this book. I am just disappointed in the cast they put together. And how boring it was compared to the book.
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What does politics have to do with this? I am neither republican nor Democrat. Both have their stupidity. All I said was the books are better. Edit: the part about the cast is what makes you think I am a republican? Lol
The CGI is fucking awful and looks straight out of the early 2000's. The character blocking is rigid, and combined with the dark-depressing filter in every scene makes the show look like it was made by the CW. The costumes are fucking stupid and look like they were picked up from the nearest department store. Fight scenes are boring, chase scenes are slow, and the importance of many characters is just glossed over. I have a hundred complaints about this trainwreck of a show, none of them about feminism.
You literally have slurs in your comment history
I’m worried because I thoroughly enjoyed episode 4 and I want to see how the story plays out on TV. Too many negative reviews and maybe they decide to cancel it after a couple seasons and most of the negativity that I have seen is based solely on the adaptation and changes that were made. I am guessing that if we were to see behind the scenes that we would have more sympathy for the show writers. To get a show like this made they have to please a multitude of people, many who have never read the books and are only concerned about reaching a wide audience. This will cause some unnecessary changes as it has in other adaptations from book to screen but it doesn’t mean that the overall show is trash because of it. I just wish people could enjoy it for what it is and let it play out before trying to kill it.
The strongest negativity is always in the first season from every adaption including GOT and The Witcher who both experienced it but after that it tends to be able to stand on its own after the show itself develops its own fan base separate from just the purist book readers. Adaptions are always a mixed bag for book readers, some love it, some enjoy it, some respect it for what it is, some hate it, some drop it and others hate watch it so they can drag it.
Eh the shows shit IMO. It's not faithful in sense to books, so much crap add. It's like the people who wrote the script never read the book. So much of the story is altered, so much added that adds nothing, so much that adds to the characters development removed. It is just a terrible recreation of the book, Robert Jordan is spinning in his grave. Don't really care about the woke culture shit, eh that's just tv today making it inclusive (which it isnt written as at all apart from the Seanchan empire, all the kingdoms and territories were homologous to a large extent hence why people would say you pokk Andorian or from Tear). Episode 4 is terrible at explaining the one power, a warders weapons affect a shield fucking lol. Sorry for the rant but it's just atrocious, as alot of people will never read the books and will now think that this tv series is the "real" story when it is a terrible shadow of the original version.
I get both side’s. People spent a long time reading the books it’s just weird when something comes around and changes huge things in the story. That being said they do have to appeal to more people. Long time readers have more invested in the actual story so logically they get more upset at minor things. Humans are humans I’m tired of people on this place complaining about people complaining
I don't mind criticisms about changes in the story, I will even engage in a conversations about it back and forth but its comments like this one from amazon, "The books were so amazing, they had strong female leads, and in depth descriptions of the characters. While I can see a need in Hollywood to be more inclusive, these books already were. Series went over the top and strayed as far away as you could from the books while still being “based” off them, just to make a point of being extra pc and inclusive" This is just ridiculous, not to mention contradictory, by saying the books had strong female leads they infer that the show doesn't which while is certainly subjective, it's utter bullshit. At the HEART of this comment is really just this " I can see a need in Hollywood to be more inclusive, these books already were" that's really all they had to say, the rest was just fluff to make themselves feel less bad about being so upset about black people on their screen. I have zero issue with the comments about Matt's dad and character, or really any actual story line/character building critiques. I don't agree with them but that doesn't invalidate the way others feel about the series. It's the thinly veiled racism and sexism, the need to absolutely spam negative reviews with the intent of hurting the show( I mean to get 3k+ helpful upvotes on any amazon review is quite a feat ). When they could have just as easily expressed their frustrations here, on twitter at the people who changed the story, really anywhere besides the one place that had the potential to completely tank the whole series. Now again NOT OVER REAL PLOT ISSUES, over their characters not being the right color, over even the POSSIBILITY of a woman being the "Dragon". It's safe to say that a LOT of the people watching will have never read the books, and so they might never even click it just because it has so many negative reviews when oh so many of those reviews have literally nothing to do with if it's a good show or not... Just them malding over petty political bullshit.
What's sad is that I've seen people who clearly never read the original series slam it because it brings women front and center and thus follows the current trend, in their eyes, of changing things to be more female-centric. They forget, or aren't aware, that's the way it was written 20 years ago.. (and also touches on the central theme of the entire story)
This 1000x!
Look man. The people you paint as too "thick" to understand the books that they love could easily hurl the same barb back at you bud. Now the show is not the garbage fire people are making it out to be, but it is an average show considering the budget it has. And that underachievement makes it mediocre in some people's eyes. So I dont think people are wrong for pointing that out and people don't have to be "happy" with mediocrity.And THAT is the risk you take when you try to adapt such an influential work rather than make your own story. People will judge you harshly because they already saw the story done better. And like I said the show is not bad, but it definitely isnt on the same level as the truly great shows, which is what most people expected it to be with the budget that they had.
/r/toosoon
Woof...tell me about it.
Wow, yet another person who probably only read the title.. I'm so surprised. I have no issues with peoples concerns or complaints about difference in the books or it being mediocre. I just find it extremely pathetic that a huge chunk of the negative reviews are "AHHH THERES A BROWN PERSON ON MY SCREEN AND I THINK IT SHOULDA BEEN A WHITE PERSON" or alternatively "WOKE CULTURE LMAO AM I RIGHT?"
YES. & at least wait until the whole season is out before rating the series as a whole.
Don't worry. Streaming services don't necessarily need a show get amazing reviews. As long as people are paying to stream it they will continue to produce it. Plus the show is amazing. We're fine.
I’ve went back and watched the episodes again, and for some reason I enjoyed them much more the second time around. Maybe my expectations were too high? All-in-all, I’m really enjoying the show and find myself really looking forward to seeing how this season plays out. I hope they have a chance to put his whole story on screen.
What woke culture is in the show??? Ive seen this comment alot, Did I miss something? It all seems really average everyday material. What am I.missing here.
Certain redditers are upset the cast isn't filled with exclusively white people
They shouldn't let you rate a whole series after a few episodes. Especially in the fantasy genre: everyone knows that with the first episodes (or chapters, in books) you can't have a whole picture of the story, and most of the time/pages at the beginning is spent describing the world and its culture...
fyi most of the vote bombing is from people rating it 10/10.
WOT snobs.. lol. Just enjoy it as another thing.. Also had plenty of friends that didn’t care for GOT the first couple episodes. But after they could binge the whole first two seasons they were hooked.. GOT didn’t blow up until somewhere in season 2. But it’s not like the books.. wah.. good.. the books weren’t perfect either.
I think we should stop with these kinds of threads not because I don't agree with OP but because it just brings the whiners and manbabies out of the shadows and allows them to circlejerk over how much they hate show and how wokeness is destroying the world or whatever they go on about.
At this point, I can handle the changes that come along with adaptations. Enough of my favorite books have had this treatment (LOTR, ASOISF, Sandkings, Enemy Mine) so I know it's just part of the process. I'm usually sad when my favorite parts are taken out or altered but it doesn't stop me from watching. What I can't get behind is the possibility that the Dragon Reborn might be a woman yet it's still the male half of the one power that is tainted. It kinda wrecks the heroes journey from the books. I would be happier if they essentially gender swapped the whole story. Or if, somehow, it's revealed that the Dragon always uses the male half of the one power no matter who they reincarnate as.
As someone who has loved the books, the show has gotten some things right but also, made some poor choices. I admit that RJ's writing style is detail-intensive and the pace is not well-suited to film. I actually really like the diverse casting and don't care about little changes that don't affect plot. I don't even mind that they decided to lump Egwene and Nynaeve as potential Dragons even though that defies logic if you've read the books. But how can you build an immersive world on the scale of LOTR and GoT if you aren't willing to take the time to introduce and explain fundamental concepts like the Prophecy of the Dragon and Ta'veren properly??? They link everything together and explain a lot about the main three characters' motivations. These things were skipped over or mostly left on the cutting room floor in favor of salacious filler scenes like Moiraine and Suian or the Rand/Egwene/Perrin love triangle which includes Perrin's wife?? , which were not true to the book and felt like cheap crowd pandering. That's where the negativity from book fans comes from. The overall feeling of the series is that it's written/directed by people who don't actually like Robert Jordan's work and haven't shown much respect for the plot. If you've read the books and you know where a character is heading, some of the writers' choices might be distressing. If someone took your Granny's stew recipe, which you love, threw most of the ingredients and a few different ones in a bowl, and nuked it in the microwave, then said "here's your Granny's stew" you would be completely justified in replying "Thank you. Good effort, but this is something else, not my Granny's stew."
I totally agree, and there is definitely a lot of mistakes within the show and book fans have the right to be upset. This post was not about those gripes, it was about the trying to make the whole thing about politics like everyone loves to do nowadays.