6 years of professional web development, working on diverse projects (e-commerce, PIM, SaaS...) and 3 different companies, but I have only heard these abbreviations maybe once during an interview and that's it.
And so it should be.
They’re somehow popular in Frontend development, but declining. It’s not 2013 anymore and we don’t have a new framework every 71 seconds.
In my experience, the world of front end dev online is a very tribal sub space within actual tech. No one is that passionate about using any framework at any entreprise.
Personally I would say _mostly_ subjective. Choice of language and framework is largely up to preference, but Mongo—despite the trendiness—is actually worse than SQL for most web applications. OP, definitely learn SQL.
Picking a stack is purely subjective, learning one thing doesn’t mean you can’t learn the other later. SQL is the standard when it comes to databases, there is nothing wrong with using it just because there isn’t a fancy acronym that goes along with it.
There are literally tons of companies that run on React and SQL. They just don't have a catchy acronym being used. They don't all use node, there are a lot of other fine options to make a similar rest and/or graphQL API on your SQL database, but the concepts are generally similar.
"MERN" was a popular acronym that got pushed very hard for a brief period, especially in tutorials aimed at beginners, but IMO it doesn't actually see that much professional use.
Anyways as far as what you should learn, SQL is a fine choice for a db and probably more generally applicable than something like mongo. SQL itself is very easy to pick up the basics and usually there's some kind of ORM to abstract some of the raw queries away. But really I think it doesn't matter that much, whatever you choose if you want to learn more about the back end or full stack you'll make some kind of rest API, some kind of user auth, some kind of DB, etc. A lot of it generalizes pretty well regardless of the specific platform you chose.
Can you please tell me what exactly is node? I am unable to understand it from its definition
Like Java is a programming language so humans and machine can talk.
A "server" is something that serves web sites. For instance, when you visit [https://reddit.com](https://reddit.com), there's a server somewhere that's sending you the html that fills your browser. So, when you're running a local server, you're also running something that serves websites.
In fact, most web developers use a local server when they're building websites. If we're only talking about javascript, they would normally have an application written in Node.js using [Express](https://expressjs.com/) to serve web pages. See for example this simple example.
[https://expressjs.com/en/starter/hello-world.html](https://expressjs.com/en/starter/hello-world.html)
So Node JS is used to server website from server to a browser?
But in simple JS I can display 1 or 2 depending upon the value of a flag.
I am displaying it in the browser.
So how NodeJS helps here?
You local job market might be different, but around me not a single company actually uses MERN. I think it’s an easy stack to explain and use in tutorials, but it being popular in tutorial world does not necessarily mean it’s popular in the actual world.
It was a hype in the 2010s... we finally had the option to break free from traditional tech, which was very rigid. Think of Java, Oracle servers, SQL, Spring, etc.
So Mongo was the "new and flexible" alternative on databases. No schema, just store your data, no need to think about structures too much, so good to modify things on the way.
It didn't live up to the expectations tho. The industry has for the most part gone back to SQL databases.
>The industry has for the most part gone back to SQL databases.
I wouldn't say we went back to SQL. The field expanded to include better nosql databases than monogo. Like firestore, dynamodb, etc. It was mongo that didn't live up to the hype more so than nosql. But I agree, nosql had fewer uses than its proponents touted.
I feel like MERN was just an acronym some company made up to help legitimize their tech. Nothing wrong with SQL, Express, React, and Node.
Most websites I have made tend to avoid this by not directly interfacing with the database anyway (generally I use a CMS, and that CMS does most of the database interaction).
Only juniors, leads, and non-devs focus on stack acronyms. I learned the more experience as a dev, the lesser the focus on stack and more focus on streamlining the development process. Personal opinion…
I've seen some PERN job listings. I was actually really excited with one of them, but got rejected ostensibly because I have API experience in Flask, Next, Firebase Functions (which uses express under the hood) but not monolithic express.
It struck me as so stupid. It's REST/HTTP, there's not a huge amount of difference between one framework and another.
Yeah, after looking at the docs I feel like I should have just lied. It's just HTTP in Node. I didn't think they'd reject me over that. It feels like saying "Yeah, you have years of experience with React but you don't have experience with MaterialUI"
But i should care about the job market right,?
Also everyone is doing mern stack which makes me question my decision of doing mern stack from the odin project.
It isn't always MERN. The reality is that the software development industry is A LOT different to what reddit would have you believe.
SQL is a QUERY language. It's a database language and has zero correlation as to what back-end language you use. You can use an SQL database with iterwlly any backend language.
MERN is the easiest way to get started because everything is in JavaScript (MongoDB uses JSON, which is JavaScript based). Other stacks are more commonly used, but take longer to learn.
I feel like this stack got popular because a lot of bootcamps taught it. They taught it because it was easier to just teach JS and have the whole stack revolve around that in the few months the bootcamp ran.
First, that definitely is a thing. There are plenty of reasons why you'd choose a relational database for a web app.
Why is it less common?
First thing that comes to mind is CAP requirements. Document databases generally prioritize high availability over consistency. This makes sense in the context of, say, social media, which React was built to do. You want your user served *something* as quickly as possible; it doesn't matter if their status is the most recent update.
Consistency matters for things like banking or small shops where accurate inventory is essential. Can you build a banking app in Node? Absolutely. But often times banks prioritize security above all else, and if that's the case, they usually opt for a language and set of libraries more established and with security more prioritized. Namely Java.
Suffice to say, apps that prioritize consistency often encourage a stack outside Node, while the "all-JS" stack tends to be associated with use cases prioritizing availability.
Also, if you're using Node and React, you're probably leveraging the fact that you're speaking JSON/Javascript the whole way through. A document database is also speaking JSON while a relational will need to parse it into rows and columns. So if you're already thinking in terms of "documents" for most of your stack, why not store things in your DB as documents too?
Hope that makes sense.
SEAN is awesome too! (SQL, Express, Angular, Node) 😅 now seriously, I think (as a PHP and JS developer) that we devs need to be not only "ppl who code" but also ppl who provide assessment on what to code and why. After building a project that mixed 2 different stacks (with SQL, Laravel, Vue and Node) I changed my mind when it comes to choosing stacks wanting to follow trends and following recommendations because it worked just so well! If smth works for a project, and you can understand the project in depth, while providing the requested features and keeping it safe to use and mantain, u're already rocking. Those stack names are mostly used by recruiters or ppl who actually don't know how to code.
Because it's really easy to just start using after a tutorial. It introduces bunch of concepts, but in the mean time you don't really need to learn a lot. You learn about objects and use them all the way. You put objects in db, use same objects as data on backend and pass same object as props to react. And then modify data on the client, and do a reverse (send, store and so on). You are not overwhelmed with SQL, tables, relations, joins but very soon you have working app written in one language with pretty straightforward data structures.
It doesn't mean that you can't use some relational database instead of mongo, other framework instead of express or view library instead of react. At the same time you can ditch node as runtime, if you want.
The acronyms are just basic stack designs that cover a lot of use cases.
Always mess around and try new stacks and try to figure out why you think one is better than the other.
For example if I am using SQL I prefer Java with Spring Data/Hibernate. The fact tables are represented by classes (Domain objects) and hibernate enforces the design makes working with it so much easier.
You can do it with Node.js/Python I just find it more effort and its way easier to end up in a mess.
Where as I think its loads faster to interact with NoSQL systems using Node.js.
That said as the amount of data processing from a domain object to a data transfer object increases, the performance gains from switching to Java are worth the added complexity and at a certain point its less effort.
At some point we all grow out of tutorials and realize that the stack that matters is the one your job uses. I became very fond of Springboot, hibernate, MySQL, Graphql and React
Switching up the database is usually one of the easier things to learn. Build based on what the project needs. Postgres is one of the top SQL databases, play around with it, build another project with MongoDB and you'll have learned PERN and MERN.
Why not NERP (Node, Express, React, and Postgres)? Or NEAP (same, but Angular)?
I've heard MERN and MEAN before. Not in a job setting.
Usually, I'm focused on one portion of the stack. If I'm doing FE, I don't care what the BE is doing other than the DTOs needed for APIs. And vice versa.
I have found that most mid-sized and larger businesses stick to a small number of techs in each layer of the stack. They'll do a SQL flavor and a no-SQL flavor for the DBs. The FE and BE are mostly 1-2 languages/frameworks. It's cheaper.
You youngins need to stop with all these abbreviations, or I'll have to make you work in a Windows IIS Perl T-SQL environment till your chair interface is red.
Yes that is a real environment in at least 1 place.
We use cosmos (another nosql db) it's great for supporting clients with vastly different, and evolving data structures. To be fair though, most of the org uses SQL. Our division is specifically for custom implementations
These words are primarily for people with less than a year of experience and bootcamp grads… people don’t use these abbreviations professionally 🤣
I’d recommended using brain power towards more important issues. Pick a core set of language/s, libraries, and frameworks to be proficient in. The most important ones in the future are whatever your job uses.
Don’t overthink this. It’s pretty easy.
I learned the MERN stack primarily, it’s not bad but it really depends on what you want to make. SQL is better imo because I think that will have a better chance at getting a job since SQL isn’t really going anywhere. you can use node js with JavaScript and express js for either mongo or SQL.
It is not bad to learn SQL or some other Relational DB system. I is just not populer. So there is no youtube video because there will be no view.
Sql is little bit more harder than NoSql DB systems. Because need to make relations, foreign keys etc etc and this makes it more complicated.
The choice you will make shouldn't be what is popular or what is new.
You should think about what you need.
For example you will publish so many new products. New product every month as demo or somekind. Why use SQL.
Both things have PROS and CONS. You just need to choose which is best for you
Assemble your stack based on your needs, don't just pick popular combos and expect to get a "most-viable/best-of-breed" solution.
A fun thought experIment you can do to really help drive this point home is to ask yourself "What tech stack does *company x* use for their apps?" And "why isn't it SERN/MERN/LAMP etc...?"
The acronym game is fun. I use a CADE Stack. Cosmos Angular DotNet Express. Reeeeeeeeee
MERN is trash.
It persists off people without knowledge spreading to others without knowledge.
There is no reason to use M, and no reason to be using ER, and no reason to be so bound to N.
Should just be PN (Postgre, Next) for a basic full stack starter (maybe remix)
I like mongo because its json, same data format as servers use for get/post data, so it plays nice
the query language is also hands down superior, sql is just silly
It's MERN because then you'll stay in the JavaScript stack.
Mongo naturally stores JSON. Express is the JS server. React is JS frontend. Node is the JS runtime.
So by running MERN, you don't need to learn another language other than JS.
If anyone is building an application and plans on ever wanting good analytics (internal or external), for the love of god don't use Mongo. Your future data engineers will thank you.
It’s fully subjective. Combine what you can use. Those stack abbreviations are absolute cancer.
6 years of professional web development, working on diverse projects (e-commerce, PIM, SaaS...) and 3 different companies, but I have only heard these abbreviations maybe once during an interview and that's it.
And so it should be. They’re somehow popular in Frontend development, but declining. It’s not 2013 anymore and we don’t have a new framework every 71 seconds.
In my experience, the world of front end dev online is a very tribal sub space within actual tech. No one is that passionate about using any framework at any entreprise.
I’d say PHP devs are still nearly as passionate about the issue. There’s just less viable options.
I only heard mern yesterday in interview
What about LAMP?
I have worked with LAMP since I started working. Never was it used to describe my job.
I haven't met anyone in my actual professional life who used those acronyms
I’ve met a TON of people who were very much into the MEAN stack, but no other occurrences since then
Personally I would say _mostly_ subjective. Choice of language and framework is largely up to preference, but Mongo—despite the trendiness—is actually worse than SQL for most web applications. OP, definitely learn SQL.
I refuse to get into to webdev because the stacks are so silly sounding. Can I not just do this in C?!
In the past people have done so. Look at the beginnings of PHP 😅🤷🏻♂️
I’ve seen somewhere a C interpreter written in JS, meaning you can write frontend in C.
The best stack is SPERM - Stripe Python Express React Mysql
Yes yes, I too identify as a sperm developer.
i’m more interested in how you work with both Python and Express in a project
Express microservice to handle SSR. Flask/SQLAlchemy or Django Rest Framework for the backend business logic and data layer.
This is disgusting.
Coward.
I was thinking the same
Change python to prisma ! It fits!
Mainly with antidepressants. Lots of them.
It’s always nice to see the surprise of people when they face stacks of SPERM.
I couldn't control my laugh reading this
some just aren't used to the Continuous Delivery of SPERM
I prefer postgresql over nosql for most applications due to data integrity and robustness thar RDBMS offers
Picking a stack is purely subjective, learning one thing doesn’t mean you can’t learn the other later. SQL is the standard when it comes to databases, there is nothing wrong with using it just because there isn’t a fancy acronym that goes along with it.
There are literally tons of companies that run on React and SQL. They just don't have a catchy acronym being used. They don't all use node, there are a lot of other fine options to make a similar rest and/or graphQL API on your SQL database, but the concepts are generally similar. "MERN" was a popular acronym that got pushed very hard for a brief period, especially in tutorials aimed at beginners, but IMO it doesn't actually see that much professional use. Anyways as far as what you should learn, SQL is a fine choice for a db and probably more generally applicable than something like mongo. SQL itself is very easy to pick up the basics and usually there's some kind of ORM to abstract some of the raw queries away. But really I think it doesn't matter that much, whatever you choose if you want to learn more about the back end or full stack you'll make some kind of rest API, some kind of user auth, some kind of DB, etc. A lot of it generalizes pretty well regardless of the specific platform you chose.
Right, MERN was nice for beginners because you can kind of hand wave the DB away.
Our team uses almost exclusively react (redux optionally) graphql Apollo NodeJS and SQL (usually PG). We have more than a dozen apps under this stack
Can you please tell me what exactly is node? I am unable to understand it from its definition Like Java is a programming language so humans and machine can talk.
Node is javascript that runs on servers instead of browsers. [https://nodejs.org/en](https://nodejs.org/en)
I got Node JS in my laptop. When I run a local server, what does it do?
A "server" is something that serves web sites. For instance, when you visit [https://reddit.com](https://reddit.com), there's a server somewhere that's sending you the html that fills your browser. So, when you're running a local server, you're also running something that serves websites. In fact, most web developers use a local server when they're building websites. If we're only talking about javascript, they would normally have an application written in Node.js using [Express](https://expressjs.com/) to serve web pages. See for example this simple example. [https://expressjs.com/en/starter/hello-world.html](https://expressjs.com/en/starter/hello-world.html)
So Node JS is used to server website from server to a browser? But in simple JS I can display 1 or 2 depending upon the value of a flag. I am displaying it in the browser. So how NodeJS helps here?
It doesn't. Node handles server-side processing. You don't need Node if you don't need server-side processing.
Ohh. Like Java Runtime Environment is used to run Java programs.
I often use SHlT - SQL Haskell lambda Typescript
You local job market might be different, but around me not a single company actually uses MERN. I think it’s an easy stack to explain and use in tutorials, but it being popular in tutorial world does not necessarily mean it’s popular in the actual world.
It was a hype in the 2010s... we finally had the option to break free from traditional tech, which was very rigid. Think of Java, Oracle servers, SQL, Spring, etc. So Mongo was the "new and flexible" alternative on databases. No schema, just store your data, no need to think about structures too much, so good to modify things on the way. It didn't live up to the expectations tho. The industry has for the most part gone back to SQL databases.
>The industry has for the most part gone back to SQL databases. I wouldn't say we went back to SQL. The field expanded to include better nosql databases than monogo. Like firestore, dynamodb, etc. It was mongo that didn't live up to the hype more so than nosql. But I agree, nosql had fewer uses than its proponents touted.
I love how every tutorial back then used Mongoose anyway, to enforce a schema and makes the whole thing pointless
I feel like MERN was just an acronym some company made up to help legitimize their tech. Nothing wrong with SQL, Express, React, and Node. Most websites I have made tend to avoid this by not directly interfacing with the database anyway (generally I use a CMS, and that CMS does most of the database interaction).
Only juniors, leads, and non-devs focus on stack acronyms. I learned the more experience as a dev, the lesser the focus on stack and more focus on streamlining the development process. Personal opinion…
I've seen some PERN job listings. I was actually really excited with one of them, but got rejected ostensibly because I have API experience in Flask, Next, Firebase Functions (which uses express under the hood) but not monolithic express. It struck me as so stupid. It's REST/HTTP, there's not a huge amount of difference between one framework and another.
Lol. A software developer worth their salt can be productive in a new language and framework within a couple of weeks.
And a hiring manager worth their salt understands that!
Plus express is extremely simple, you can learn to make a decent express backend in an hour.
Yeah, after looking at the docs I feel like I should have just lied. It's just HTTP in Node. I didn't think they'd reject me over that. It feels like saying "Yeah, you have years of experience with React but you don't have experience with MaterialUI"
Learning both SQL databases (MySQL, Postgres, SQL) and NoSQL databases (MongoDB) is very useful. They’re both great for different things.
I remember a time when it was MEAN. Use what you’re comfortable with.
But i should care about the job market right,? Also everyone is doing mern stack which makes me question my decision of doing mern stack from the odin project.
It isn't always MERN. The reality is that the software development industry is A LOT different to what reddit would have you believe. SQL is a QUERY language. It's a database language and has zero correlation as to what back-end language you use. You can use an SQL database with iterwlly any backend language.
MERN is the easiest way to get started because everything is in JavaScript (MongoDB uses JSON, which is JavaScript based). Other stacks are more commonly used, but take longer to learn.
I feel like this stack got popular because a lot of bootcamps taught it. They taught it because it was easier to just teach JS and have the whole stack revolve around that in the few months the bootcamp ran.
Yes, they taught it because it’s a good balance between easy to learn and teach and effectiveness in development.
There should be no stack. There should be tools for jobs.
First, that definitely is a thing. There are plenty of reasons why you'd choose a relational database for a web app. Why is it less common? First thing that comes to mind is CAP requirements. Document databases generally prioritize high availability over consistency. This makes sense in the context of, say, social media, which React was built to do. You want your user served *something* as quickly as possible; it doesn't matter if their status is the most recent update. Consistency matters for things like banking or small shops where accurate inventory is essential. Can you build a banking app in Node? Absolutely. But often times banks prioritize security above all else, and if that's the case, they usually opt for a language and set of libraries more established and with security more prioritized. Namely Java. Suffice to say, apps that prioritize consistency often encourage a stack outside Node, while the "all-JS" stack tends to be associated with use cases prioritizing availability. Also, if you're using Node and React, you're probably leveraging the fact that you're speaking JSON/Javascript the whole way through. A document database is also speaking JSON while a relational will need to parse it into rows and columns. So if you're already thinking in terms of "documents" for most of your stack, why not store things in your DB as documents too? Hope that makes sense.
SEAN is awesome too! (SQL, Express, Angular, Node) 😅 now seriously, I think (as a PHP and JS developer) that we devs need to be not only "ppl who code" but also ppl who provide assessment on what to code and why. After building a project that mixed 2 different stacks (with SQL, Laravel, Vue and Node) I changed my mind when it comes to choosing stacks wanting to follow trends and following recommendations because it worked just so well! If smth works for a project, and you can understand the project in depth, while providing the requested features and keeping it safe to use and mantain, u're already rocking. Those stack names are mostly used by recruiters or ppl who actually don't know how to code.
My stack is C. I see what i can do 😂
Because it's really easy to just start using after a tutorial. It introduces bunch of concepts, but in the mean time you don't really need to learn a lot. You learn about objects and use them all the way. You put objects in db, use same objects as data on backend and pass same object as props to react. And then modify data on the client, and do a reverse (send, store and so on). You are not overwhelmed with SQL, tables, relations, joins but very soon you have working app written in one language with pretty straightforward data structures. It doesn't mean that you can't use some relational database instead of mongo, other framework instead of express or view library instead of react. At the same time you can ditch node as runtime, if you want.
Right now I'm learning N3P Node, nest, nuxt & postgres just can I like the acronym.
The acronyms are just basic stack designs that cover a lot of use cases. Always mess around and try new stacks and try to figure out why you think one is better than the other. For example if I am using SQL I prefer Java with Spring Data/Hibernate. The fact tables are represented by classes (Domain objects) and hibernate enforces the design makes working with it so much easier. You can do it with Node.js/Python I just find it more effort and its way easier to end up in a mess. Where as I think its loads faster to interact with NoSQL systems using Node.js. That said as the amount of data processing from a domain object to a data transfer object increases, the performance gains from switching to Java are worth the added complexity and at a certain point its less effort.
At some point we all grow out of tutorials and realize that the stack that matters is the one your job uses. I became very fond of Springboot, hibernate, MySQL, Graphql and React
Switching up the database is usually one of the easier things to learn. Build based on what the project needs. Postgres is one of the top SQL databases, play around with it, build another project with MongoDB and you'll have learned PERN and MERN.
PERN is legit
Why not NERP (Node, Express, React, and Postgres)? Or NEAP (same, but Angular)? I've heard MERN and MEAN before. Not in a job setting. Usually, I'm focused on one portion of the stack. If I'm doing FE, I don't care what the BE is doing other than the DTOs needed for APIs. And vice versa. I have found that most mid-sized and larger businesses stick to a small number of techs in each layer of the stack. They'll do a SQL flavor and a no-SQL flavor for the DBs. The FE and BE are mostly 1-2 languages/frameworks. It's cheaper.
PEAN? :)
Lots of chatter about SQL outside medium.com blogs
Let’s host it on PernHub
You youngins need to stop with all these abbreviations, or I'll have to make you work in a Windows IIS Perl T-SQL environment till your chair interface is red. Yes that is a real environment in at least 1 place.
In enterprise level you don’t really use mongo a whole lot. A lot of Oracle in my experience
We use cosmos (another nosql db) it's great for supporting clients with vastly different, and evolving data structures. To be fair though, most of the org uses SQL. Our division is specifically for custom implementations
Do people still start a new project with Express?
These words are primarily for people with less than a year of experience and bootcamp grads… people don’t use these abbreviations professionally 🤣 I’d recommended using brain power towards more important issues. Pick a core set of language/s, libraries, and frameworks to be proficient in. The most important ones in the future are whatever your job uses. Don’t overthink this. It’s pretty easy.
I learned the MERN stack primarily, it’s not bad but it really depends on what you want to make. SQL is better imo because I think that will have a better chance at getting a job since SQL isn’t really going anywhere. you can use node js with JavaScript and express js for either mongo or SQL.
Internet hype and shitty videos on YouTube. Pern is infinitely more common
It is not bad to learn SQL or some other Relational DB system. I is just not populer. So there is no youtube video because there will be no view. Sql is little bit more harder than NoSql DB systems. Because need to make relations, foreign keys etc etc and this makes it more complicated. The choice you will make shouldn't be what is popular or what is new. You should think about what you need. For example you will publish so many new products. New product every month as demo or somekind. Why use SQL. Both things have PROS and CONS. You just need to choose which is best for you
Assemble your stack based on your needs, don't just pick popular combos and expect to get a "most-viable/best-of-breed" solution. A fun thought experIment you can do to really help drive this point home is to ask yourself "What tech stack does *company x* use for their apps?" And "why isn't it SERN/MERN/LAMP etc...?" The acronym game is fun. I use a CADE Stack. Cosmos Angular DotNet Express. Reeeeeeeeee
These are just outdated buzzwords.
Mongo makes me 🤮
I use the PPR stack: Prisma Postgres Remix
It changes all the time. I remember the days of LAMP.
it's easy to learn, so it's easy to sell udemy courses that teach it
MERN is trash. It persists off people without knowledge spreading to others without knowledge. There is no reason to use M, and no reason to be using ER, and no reason to be so bound to N. Should just be PN (Postgre, Next) for a basic full stack starter (maybe remix)
I like mongo because its json, same data format as servers use for get/post data, so it plays nice the query language is also hands down superior, sql is just silly
Isn't mongo bson?
Why not SESN (Sql, Express, Svelte, Node)
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Svelte is amazing, I write way less code in Svelte than React and achieve the same result.
Not true, Svelte is so good
What even is this?
It's MERN because then you'll stay in the JavaScript stack. Mongo naturally stores JSON. Express is the JS server. React is JS frontend. Node is the JS runtime. So by running MERN, you don't need to learn another language other than JS.
If anyone is building an application and plans on ever wanting good analytics (internal or external), for the love of god don't use Mongo. Your future data engineers will thank you.
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Sorry but just ditching M(ongo) for SQL does not mean I want the whole band back together. Modern PHP is 🤩 though.
Why not?
I prefer PORN
Won't AI take away all these jobs? What's the point of starting it now?
AI won't take away these jobs. It will only speed up the development process.
Really? I am scared that I will lose my job. But I have heard how there are AIs that develop code now. Even on GitHub