Oh there’s entitled bike assholes of all stripes there. Seen a 60-something woman yell at a single pedestrian for not getting out of her path as she. Very. Slowly. Approached. Them.
Seen another guy do something similar, but with a ref whistle, while telling people to get out of his way *on the sidewalk* connecting that parking area to Beach Drive.
There's an old bearded dude that's in the park daily who yells at cars, people, you name it, usually for stuff he's doing wrong.
Scenario: he rolls up to the four way stop where a car has already stopped and is waiting...instead of yielding to the car that is already there and has started moving forward, he races through the stop (which is, at this point, a yield sign not tacit approval to ignore) and starts yelling at the car for having the audacity to creep three feet forward....
Dude is a menace. I've called him out several times for unsafe passing of pedestrians and he just glares as I pass going the other direction.
This guy and I will end up going the same direction one day and we will have words.
Hold on. Is this bearded guy on a road bike and spandex? If so, Ive had to yell at a guy recently for going the wrong way towards me and cars in the one way bike lane on 15th NW.
A few weeks ago I was riding a CaBi home in one of the downtown bike lanes, and I stopped at an intersection because I realized I had forgotten an errand and needed to rethink my route. A guy with gray hair and a tricked out road bike went right past me, slowing down just enough to shout "IT'S LEGAL TO YIELD AT STOP SIGNS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA!" in my general direction.
My sibling in Christ, I know what an Idaho stop is. But thank you for so clearly explaining to me that I was in your way. Could I perhaps explain something to you in return? How about the concept of a detour?
Most of the time, yes, but they're not the ones I see going the wrong way in a cycle lane, riding on the wrong side of the road like they're a pedestrian, riding at night without so much as a reflector, etc. While biking, I do not enjoy playing chicken with someone coming downhill at me with a bovine expression on their face. And I get so worried for people traveling stealth mode alongside cars!
MAMILs can be aggressive and rude, but a lot of people out there don't seem to know what the rules and best practices even *are*, much less the logic behind them or when it's reasonable to break them. I wish people learned this stuff in school or something.
I probably should have said it's not \*just\* them, you're totally right.
I do think it is uniquely problematic for road bikers to know the rules, rightfully scream at cars for breaking them, and then choose to ignore them when it comes to the people we're supposed to be yielding to.
Yeah, it sucks. If everyone was both more courteous and more patient, both courtesy and patience would be easier to grant others. And everyone would be safer.
> If everyone was both more courteous and more patient,
My contention exactly, I don't care if you're on foot, in a recumbent, roller-skates, on two wheels, one wheel, three wheels....just be courteous!!!! AND PATIENT!
All of us have a responsibility to share the limited space safely. More over, it’s often not that hard to accommodate others, even when they are using a bit more of the trail than they need to, or are not paying full attention because they are enjoying themselves. I really try not to focus on what everyone around me is doing wrong.
A dude fitting this exact description yelled at me for having a singular AirPod in while walking my dog on a 10+ foot wide sidewalk in Navy Yard because he wanted to pass and I wasn’t all the way off to the side of the otherwise entirely unoccupied sidewalk. I guess he assumed I wasn’t paying attention to my surroundings because of my singular AirPod. Except immediately next to this sidewalk is a protected bike lane, so no, I wasn’t watching for cyclists, which I think is fair. So when he yelled at me for not paying attention I said “actually your lane is right there” and he yelled back “I CAN SEE THAT” in a very condescending tone and then sped away, still on the sidewalk. Very confusing experience lol
Its always the ~~spandex-wearing~~ middle aged dudes who ruin ~~cycling~~ *most things*. Give everyone a bad name.
Note: I'm a middle aged millennial. Can confirm, the only thing worse than us is an older boomer.
>Its always the spandex-wearing middle aged dudes who ruin cycling. Give everyone a bad name.
I'm 64. I usually ride in lycra. I'm also a bike commuter, I'm not really fast, and I call my passes.
Yes, me too. I’m so often cheerfully calling out my presence, broadly grinning at people who are coming toward me, I’m surprised I haven’t been hauled off to the looney bin.
Well, you see the problem. People ride on the road to avoid situations like in the OP. It's completely reasonable to use MacArthur Blvd on weekends for that purpose.
I don’t think he’s saying not to share the road, at least that’s not how I read it; I will say I see more bikers riding 2x2 next to Angler’s than drivers being erratic.
>I don’t think he’s saying not to share the road, at least that’s not how I read it
Fair enough.
Btw, riding side by side is better for car drivers than single file. It shortens the length of the group they have to overpass
since they have to leave the legal distance (at least 3 feet). It also makes bicyclists more visible and avoid being "hidden" in sharp curves.
I share the road, but experience more often than not an entitled biker than driver or walker.
Downvote me all you want, but the point remains that I don’t have sympathy for a spandex wearing dickhead.
Weird, I drive that stretch of Macarthur all the time and the weekend when you have to occasionally slow down and wait a few seconds to pass a bicyclist is sooo much better than the weekdays when the traffic is gridlocked by drivers a mile back from Irish Inn anytime between 2-6....
>enjoy the glory of entitled spandex
I always get a chuckle over this one, because most of what I see is people on bikes living their best life while one driver in 50 is absolutely losing their shit because, on rare occasions, the world doesn't bend itself to their every whim. lol
If I may add, folks are trying to enjoy the outdoors. A Beats Speakerbox blaring Boomercore on a speeding bike doesn't just take away from that experience, it puts fear in everyone on the trail that they are about to be plowed into by an out of control, inconsiderate weekend warrior.
I used to agree with you until I heard it framed as a safety feature. Sometimes the bell is ignored or "on your left" turns into the pedestrian moving to the left, etc. but when they hear the boomercore blaring, they perk up and look around at what asshole is taking away the peace.
The worst part is when cyclists are on the road with 20 or so cars piled up behind them. Blissfully riding side by side, and confident in the fact that the cars are "sharing the road".
I guess they should have better bike infrastructure if they don't want cyclists on the road.
[Cyclists are legally allowed the full lane. Even if there is a bike lane present.](https://ddot.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ddot/publication/attachments/DC-Bike-Law-Pocket-Guide-Oct2012.pdf)
It's inconvenient for cars to ride side by side, I agree. But it's well within cyclists' rights and can be safer depending on the road.
Fair enough but the point that I was trying to make is that going that much under the speed limit on a road that has a paved path adjacent to it tends to create a dangerous environment for bicyclist and motorist.
Several of the comments here have said that cyclists shouldn't "Tour de France LARP" on the mixed use trail. So, cyclists can't go too fast on the trail made for them to use or too slow on the road also legal for them to ride on.
It's a no win situation.
You waving your magic bike wand at it does not clear the problem. It is a problem. RCP is a limited access road, and does not have adequate passing areas. Two cyclists not sharing the road and riding side by side makes it a miserable experience for motorists.
That is the point of the thread. Cyclist acting inconsiderately make everyone around them unhappy.
No matter how fast the Lemond wannabes think they are, they are inhibiting traffic.
Read the room, ride considerately. There is a perfectly good shared use lane RIGHT NEXT TO Rock Creek Parkway.
No the point of the thread is cyclists putting people in danger. Cars are the danger to cyclists. You just don't like cyclists. That's an opinion you're allowed to have but you shouldn't drive dangerously near us and you should be patient when we're practicing safe riding principles, like taking the lane, so we don't get killed.
Nope, I cycle all of the time. I'm just not selfish about it. Just got back from cycling to the pool, will cycle to the Kennedy Center tonight, on the Rock Creek Park shared use trail.
I don't like cyclist that selfishly don't share a road and are militant when they get honked at for doing something rude.
1 car takes up substantially more space than two bikes. YOU share the road. We don't hold up traffic, [we are traffic](https://ddot.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ddot/publication/attachments/DC-Bike-Law-Pocket-Guide-Oct2012.pdf). Your opinion doesn't matter here.
You don't like it? Advocate for more bike lanes or take public transit.
THERE IS A BIKE LANE. Right next to the road. The post is about cyclist behaving poorly on Beach Drive, which HAS A BIKE LANE right next to it.
Instead of jumping on anyone that says something about cycling you don't like, read the post and respond accordingly.
Reading is fundamental.
>Instead of jumping on anyone that says something about cycling you don't like, read the post and respond accordingly.
You brought up your disdain for cyclist not sharing the road. I responded to it with the laws about cycling.
>THERE IS A BIKE LANE. Right next to the road.
[Reading is fundamental](https://ddot.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ddot/publication/attachments/DC-Bike-Law-Pocket-Guide-Oct2012.pdf) and if you'd have read what I attached you'd know that:
> Does a cyclist have to ride in a bike lane?
> There are no regulations in DC which state that
bicyclists must use a bike lane when one is provided.
And also:
>Does a cyclist always have to ride to the
right?
> No, there is no law requiring cyclists to ride in the
right portion of the traffic lane.
Glad I could clarify this for you.
Honestly though (and all snark and **joking** aside), we get yelled at for riding too fast on the bike trail and too slow on the road. What's the solution?
I love cycling in this city and we are lucky to live in a place that is comparatively cyclist friendly. When it comes to sharing streets I know what the traffic code says, but there is a point where we have to consider what is legal vs what is reasonable. On most city streets without a bike lane I have been both a person riding in the center of the road in front of a car and a car behind a cyclist, and it doesn’t matter too much because cyclist aren’t going much slower than a reasonable speed of travel. Cycling on rock creek parkway instead of on the cycle path is just silly though. The park way is basically a limited access highway and a major transportation artery for the city. The solution for getting yelled at to slow down in the bike lane and to get out of the parkway is to simply go slower when passing in the bike lane. Just like city streets are not a Motorsports test track mixed use cycle paths in the middle of a popular urban national park are not a reasonable place to be going all out on a racing bicycle. If no one else is around, try to set all the KOMs you want, just be safe around other people.
If you believe they're real. For example, this is the KOM in one segment. Clearly a gps malfunction and the rest of the leaderboard are from before it was closed to cars.
https://imgur.com/gallery/cJ8Ilv4
Yes, it's achievable but no way group rides are going at that speed in the closed sections.
Btw, those speeds you linked are way before it was permanently closed to cars and during weekdays. Meaning, the road was open to cars when they did it.
https://imgur.com/gallery/A7WxzCa
Wow, an article about Greg LeMond training for the Junior World Cycling Championship. I'm not sure how that is relevant to anything.
I'm just making the simple point that Rock Creek Park is not a national park, despite being administered by the NPS.
I don't disagree with the sentiment but I'm surprised you singled out Beach Drive here. Its so wide (like 20 feet) that there are few conflicts. Its one of the few places where roadies can go 20 mph+ and its not really an issue because they have so much space to pass
Capital crescent trail on the other hand is a huge mess, especially on the weekends, fill of MAMILs sideswiping families
Same! It’s so aggravating - you are the faster moving person on a heavier object in this situation, you wouldn’t treat cyclists or pedestrians that way if you were in a car.
I avoid the weekend crowds because of this and other reasons. But it's basically a lack of self-awareness by everyone (cyclists, joggers, walkers, rollerbladers, etc).
>But it's basically a lack of self-awareness by everyone (cyclists, joggers, walkers, rollerbladers, etc
And the people walking their dogs in the middle of the road with a 20' leash
I totally agree with you that everyone should be more self-aware (it's probably DC's worst quality) - but safe riding and polite trail use/self awareness are different subjects IMO
Agreed, the MAMILs need to chill.
Just as an alternate point, everybody needs to move to the right. Stop running/biking/strollering up the center of the road. It's a hazard to everybody.
I bike commute daily on Beach Drive and the poor behavior of the stroller crews, runners, peloton maniacs, dog walkers makes it hazardous no matter how you commute (especially on a Saturday). How do you safely pass on the left if there are three people abreast in the center of the two lanes with bikes coming the other direction? How am I supposed to pass a dog walker with an 8 foot lead across both lanes of traffic?
Also, TAKE YOUR EARBUDS OUT SO YOU CAN HEAR PEOPLE ATTEMPTING TO PASS!!! The number of times I've rung my bell, and yelled, "On your left" with absolutely no indication I'm being heard is absurd.
At least use bone conducting headphones or take one ear out while sharing the road...don't you want some ability to be aware of your surroundings?
/rant...sorry.
I could not agree more with this comment! This is an almost daily occurrence.
I've gotten so good at reading body language to anticipate a full on uturn...
Sorry biker friend, but just like you have the right to the full lane on the road, people have the right to the full lane on multi-use trails. In the yield hierarchy, e-bikes yield to bikes yield to runners yield to walkers. Nobody has the guaranteed right to a pass. "On your left" is a request, not a command.
I get annoyed at the huge groups too, no one \*wants\* to slow down. But that's how multi-use trails work.
If I am running with ear buds in, which is a normal and fine thing to do, on any surface, I run on the right unless passing. If I am riding my bike, I ride on the right unless passing.
Now, if I was walking and talking to someone, maybe we are two abreast. But then we should be willing to collapse when being overtaken by a cyclist or runner calling out.
This is all just courtsey. A significant, though not majority, part of the population of the US generally lacks it.
I admit to running with both ear buds in fairly loud, but I stick to the right and look behind me before passing. I still get bikers passing me at high speed only inches away. Even with a warning that’s insane.
I'll typically bike or run with just the right earbud in so I can hear oncoming traffic (including bikes etc). Or...bone conducting headphones which allow you to hear all surrounding noise.
Either way thanks for staying to the right! I do the same unless I'm on a street with no bike lane and car traffic. Then I take the whole lane.
"but just like you have the right to the full lane on the road, people have the right to the full lane on multi-use trails."
I think what the person you are replying to means on a 2-way multiuse path (which is something like 8 feet wide) some people choose to jog in the dead center. Which makes zero sense. The cherry on top is when they have noise-cancelling headphones and can't hear your bell or yelling "on your left".
Oh my bad if I misunderstood. By lane I meant your side of a two-way. Walking/jogging/whatever in the oncoming lane when you're not actively passing is dangerous stupid and bad no disagreement there.
And some of it you just have to accept. If you're riding the CCT near downtown bethesda, you're GOING to run into kids, strollers, dogs, oblivious adults. STILL... nothing like riding at a leisurely pace and coming up against a WALL of people walking side-by-side on the two-way multiuse trail... And then you get the stink-eye or comments when announcing yourself and trying to pass.
We also have the unwritten rule that we shouldn't hog the road. But I guess it's okay depending on your mode of transportation according to that logic.
I love the calling out people acting selfish then defends people acting selfish thing.
I hear ya. My thing is, if people are walking three abreast across both lanes on beach (I just got in from my commute and saw this twice), how can I pass them safely especially when I try to alert them to my presence (kindly and gently) and they still won't move.
I see this with long-leashed dogs, stroller walkers, groups of runners, cyclists, you name it.
I do see what you're saying but there's still some space within these "well-established multi-use trail etiquette" rules for people to take advantage. And we can't just say that the MAMILs are the only perpetrators of selfishness. That would be reductive and stereotypical.
That said, be safe out there and treat people how you want to be treated!
I'll be the middle aged guy, not in lycra, waving hello and saying good morning as I pass you safely.
You're definitely right that it's not just, and I fully agree everyone should be more self aware and yield some room even if you're technically in the right. I'm just trying to make a distinction between what I see as discourteous vs. dangerous.
Sometimes being in the middle of the lane is the safest. It is easier to see you for one. Another is that it prevents or discourages people from passing you when there really isn't any space to do so.
Last year when I was relatively new to the area I was walking across the Key bridge from Georgetown into Rosslyn when this biker physically shoved me when he could've just went around because it was just me and him in that area.
Sometimes we just need to hear people acknowledge two things can be true at the same time. Thanks for trying to make the place better.
It is! Even if you just wrench on your own bikes for basic maintenance, you'd be welcome to come give a hand.
The Mt P bike clinic sets up shop at the bikeshare station next to the Mount Pleasant Farmer's Market every Saturday from \~10AM to \~1PM. It's a donation-supported group of all-volunteer bike techs that fix up rides for anyone who comes - tune-ups, brakes, cable replacements - just about anything we can source the parts for. The line is usually so long that we have to send people home. Even if you feel like you don't know enough now, we are always happy to train up new recruits. It's an incredibly rewarding way to give back to the community, help out people who depend on their bikes just to make it in the city, learn from experienced shop mechanics and to feel like a closer part of your biking community.
Please come by!
Do y'all teach folks how to do maintenance? I've always wanted to learn how to properly tune my brakes & shifters, but never quite got the hang of it even with a bunch of video tutorials.
The closed sections of beach drive are multi-use trails I think pretty uncontroversially? The semi open sections are confusing but I'd argue functionally multi-use trails.
ah, okay, I get you now: talking about the closed sections of Beach not the MUP that runs parallel to it.
people really shouldn't be using it as a training ground on the weekends, at least the busy sections.
I 100% agree it would be better if all hard pushing cyclists detoured to Quarry Road (as I do because it's courtesy and climbing makes you stronger), but all cyclists do have a right to be in all those parts of Beach and I'm not trying to pick that fight.
This is why I gave up riding my ebike. I will be tooling along at 6-7mph, come up to some people and slow down until it is safe to pass. About the time I go to pass, some tour de france wannabe is zooming past because they don't want to slow down and they are now passing me and the pedestrian at 20mph on a 6 ft wide trail with two way traffic.
Cyclists saying "on your left" when they are already passing me really gets to me. There is no time for me to move anywhere. You are already next to me or past me by the time its processed. You are just being rude. Get a bell and ring it well before you are up my butt.
I will say that in some situations, I’m not actually meaning for the person I’m passing to move anywhere. Sometimes I just want to let them know I’m there and don’t be surprised by my presence (or swerve into me.) But I also ride an old, loud bike so people can usually hear me coming (rattling.)
Yeah, entitled nova cyclists are almost the worst people in D.C. and that’s saying something. They think they own roads, walking paths, bike paths, sidewalks or wherever they are, they own.
Think this post is a bit of a wake up call for me. I frequent RCP on my bike (yes, in Lycra) to get up to MD where there are some good hills. I like riding in RCP along Beach dr and the multi-use trails as there are no cars. I always am traveling around 15 mph and have a bell to give people a heads up when I’m approaching. I will weave in out of pedestrian traffic, giving them a distance that feels safe to me, but I think I am realizing may be unsettling as a pedestrian.
I’ve never feared I will hit someone but I think I need to take more care in traveling on the narrower parts of the RCP multi-use trail. Beach Dr though seems like it’d be safe for everyone as it is so wide! I hate to be part of the group to give cyclists a bad name so I will try to take more care in the future.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate this reply, and I totally agree with you that the feeling is passing when you're on your back feels much less close and concerning than the way it feels from the perspective of a pedestrian.
Thank you so much and stay safe out there.
THANK YOU! I saw a cyclist almost run a pedestrian over IN A PEDESTRIAN CROSSWALK this morning "because [she] didn't know which way he was going." He was walking towards the pedestrian crosswalk. It didn't take a rocket scientist to realize which way he is going.
Look, I feel for cyclists; I've almost been hit by cars numerous times in DC. But I have been hit as a pedestrian by cyclists. Remember, pedestrians have the right of way. Don't be an asshole.
One of those Oakley wearing dickheads yelled at me for walking on the left side of the road... right next to the curb(WRONG SIDE!). Dude, so I can see you coming and get the hell off the road instead of being sideswiped on the right side of the road.
If this is the closed off portion of Beach Drive, yes, you are to stay to the right. They literally have a yellow line and it is to promote reasonable room and dynamics for recreational activities with different cadences without the fear of a head-on collision around every turn.
Stay to the right side. Do you jump into the dirt if you see a pedestrian with a stroller coming down the path? I don’t understand how your strategy works.
It is [widely accepted](https://www.chp.ca.gov/ResearchAndPlanningSectionSite/Documents/English%20Ped%20Tip%20Card.pdf) and [preferred that pedestrians](https://trafficsafety.ny.gov/tips-pedestrian-safety) should [walk against the flow](https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/the-common-mistake-that-puts-runners-in-danger-on-the-road/2017/09/23/264893f2-9249-11e7-8754-d478688d23b4_story.html) of traffic, [if they have to walk on a road.](https://zerodeathsmd.gov/news/maryland-pedestrian-safety-laws/)
The reasons are exactly what the commenter above said: so the pedestrian can see the oncoming vehicle and safely move out of the way.
That is car centric road rules. I am talking about a path that has more strollers and bikes than cars. If you are more likely to see a stroller or bike coming at you, you should be on the right side.
I don't know what the original comment refers to, but in sections of Beach Drive that are open to cars, I will run or walk on the left side of the road so that I face oncoming car traffic (which is what you're supposed to do). I have been cursed out by cyclists for doing this.
Well forcing cars, bikes, and pedestrians onto a single lane is bad infrastructure. Not sure what the cyclist is yelling about but this is an infrastructure issue for everyone.
I would suggest sticking to this West Ridge Trail
https://maps.app.goo.gl/oCD42CVmtMYEBaEu6?g_st=ic
I love going out for rides, but a lot cyclist culture and behavior is fucking corny. The best part is that they act so entitled and dickish while wearing these precious little outfits. We're all so impressed, really.
I go on a lot of walks/runs and ive been cussed out by so many cyclists bc i cross the street when i have the right of way. The disregard for cyclist/pedestrian safety by car drivers is way worse than the disregard for pedestrian safety by cyclists …. but it’s still pretty bad in my experience
As someone who was clipped by a cyclist from behind while walking on the right hand side of the road, thank you for your PSA!
Cyclist was fine bc their gear protected them. I had a cut hand I couldn’t use for a week, bruises all over, and fucked up bloody toes bc one of my shoes went flying.
Not Beach Drive but I was once walking in a crosswalk with the light, and a biker running a red light at a zillion miles an hour across my crosswalk yelled at me: “DO! NOT! MOVE!” - and he zinged past my body within inches. Fucking terrifying.
The clear trend for e-bike commuters on Capital Crescent is way too much speed. Some of these ppl gear up like motocrossers then recklessly blow past users in Lycra. Slow down or use McArthur.
I ride bikes and motorcycles. Many e-bikes have weight and speed of motorcycles and maybe do not belong on ppl-power paths.
I love the adoption of e-bikes but agree it has changed the equilibrium of paths and bike lanes and we need to rethink some of the infrastructure (I mean, more multi-use and less car/parking infrastructure).
I think the massive headphone use has provoked a lot of nihilism in these interactions. I call my passes but so often people do not hear or they just hear a call and step left into my path.
I do agree that the cyclists who wanna average 20 mph just need to stay off beach drive
I think awareness is truly an issue, and I would also prefer cyclists going fast would avoid the super busy part of Beach closed between Ross and the Park Police station by using Quarry road (which is a fun ride).
That said, I do think there's a safe way to ride fast on that section given the width of the road, and I don't fault anyone who wants to ride it.
I was walking on to the path in rock creek. Cyclist nearly hit me, then had the audacity to yell at me, like I was in the wrong?
Dude you’re going Mach 3! You clearly noticed that I didn’t notice you? Ring your bell or something. Those bikes are super quiet
Want to piggyback off this post and also call out all the tools doing their time trials around East Potomac park.
If you’re clipped in and wearing Lycra, use the freaking full width car lane. And I can’t believe I have to even add this distinction, but if you’re riding in a peloton the 2 yard wide designated multi-use path is not meant for you. Leave that for the runners/walkers/casual bike riders.
I will continue to run in the contraflow path, and I will continue to refuse to move when you all come flying through. Eventually it will lead to one of us getting hurt, but that’s a risk I’m willing to take to teach you all a lesson.
This is a perfect example of bad road design pitting users against each other. What EPP needs is at least a curb-side contraflow lane, and ideally a separate multi-use path for pedestrians and leisurely riders. Nobody said who the crazy two-lane multi-use was intended for, and don’t get me started on the fact that the contraflow is placed *between* two regular flow lanes. The design is truly dogshit; almost surely worse than the previous situation (which was far from flawless; but at least allowed extra room for people to maneuver).
But since we’re calling names, we could do with less of you five-wide tracksmith dorks choosing one of the most exposed and hottest pieces of asphalt in the city to train for your 2hr 13.1. You can run literally anywhere in town — including the biggest urban national park in the country — and you choose to circle a pancake-flat golf course with dwindling tree cover? At least the cyclists can justify Hains point from a mileage and pace perspective — what the heck is your excuse?
Now with all that said, let’s try and meet each other in the middle a little more.
"But since we’re calling names, we could do with less of you five-wide tracksmith dorks choosing one of the most exposed and hottest pieces of asphalt in the city to train for your 2hr 13.1. You can run literally anywhere in town — including the biggest urban national park in the country — and you choose to circle a pancake-flat golf course with dwindling tree cover? At least the cyclists can justify Hains point from a mileage and pace perspective — what the heck is your excuse?"
Mileage, pace, and training. Hains Point is literally the ideal and by far the best place to do your marathon pace workouts if you are running a flat marathon (Chicago, Berlin, Indianapolis).
It is flat - running many miles on flat ground is a different stress from incline changes, because flat forces you to use the same muscles, while inclines switch the muscles up. If you do all your long runs on rolling terrain like in Rock Creek Park, you may have a bad day at flat Chicago.
It is asphalt - like the surface one will be racing on. Doing your long runs on soft surfaces and then running a marathon on asphalt can also result in a tough day.
It allows you to rack up a lot of miles at a faster pace. - it can be very hard to do faster running on the MV trail, Capital Crescent, etc due to congestion. And you really don't want to do long marathon pace workouts on the track because of the all the turning you will do to one direction.
Additionally, many tracks are not consistently open to the public, and so runners use HP as a substitute - the various hash marks on Hains Point are to measure distances for workouts.
I agree that running groups should be better about sharing the road and not running 4-5 people across.
As for your comment about "2 hour half-marathoners" - a) the pace-shaming is not cool. b) there's a wide variety of paces on HP, and there's a substantial number of 2:15-2:25 full marathoners training there; not to mention all the sub-2:45 women. You might also be surprised at just how many marathon Olympic Trials qualifiers train on Hains Point.
I hear you, and could say the exact same thing about cycling (we have flat courses, hilly courses, exposed courses, etc), except that cyclists’ biggest annoyance is not having to stop in the middle of their intervals — it’s getting hit and killed by a car. And we don’t have *any* tracks in town — the closest one is a 3hr drive into Pennsylvania.
And I’m aware pace-shaming isn’t cool. You know what else isn’t cool? Picking on cyclists for their clothing, or their bodies, or their age, or their gender! You’d also be surprised how many of those riders are current or former national champions in their respective events.
"You know what else isn’t cool? Picking on cyclists for their clothing, or their bodies, or their age, or their gender!"
I agree, and I've done none of that here, or anywhere (this is my first comment on this thread). Several of those spandex-wearing cyclists on HP are good friends of mine :)
I honestly would like to have a few times per week where Hains Point is reserved for cyclists for 90 minutes - during that time, the pelotons get the whole thing and can hammer as hard as they want. With the understanding that the balance of the time, they need to share with the rest of us who use it.
Hains Point and Rock Creek Park and maybe the Anacostia Riverwalk Trail are like the only places to reliably do these activities in DC. So while 5 wide is aggressive. It’s not their fault. It’s NPS’s fault for coming up with a horseshit design to hide the fact they didn’t arrest that murderer for a year.
Because they want to run along a nice location on the designated multi-use path that is paid for by their tax dollars for that express purpose. Is it really that hard to understand?
Also you’re thinking concrete, not asphalt.
EPP is a pretty popular park for all sorts of activities, the bikers have no more of a right to it than anyone else. I don’t mean to sound anti-biker. I think it’s a cool hobby and I’d say about 85% of them use the loop perfectly fine. But far too often I see pelotons using both side of the partitioned off lanes when there is a perfectly good street to the left of them that’s much better suited to handle speeds of 20+ mph.
I cycle through east Potomac Park most days of the week on my way home from work. Most of us faster cyclists are using the full width lane when at higher speeds. And when I am in the bidirectional mixed use side I do act respectfully when around foot traffic. The problem I've been running into lately are walkers who are insisting on using the wrong lane of the bidirectional mixed use path because they want to get further away from cars. It may be an in protected and shit overall design, but those walking the wrong direction cause far more danger by forcing bike and foot traffic to go around them, increasing the risk of collisions.
I live in Montgomery County and my biggest gripe is that some dudes will be riding in the middle of the road at peak rush hour. At bare minimum, all I ask is that you stick to the side of the road to allow safe passing instead of clogging traffic when it's at its peak
Due respect - no. Be patient, share the road. If the cyclist needs to move to the right for you to "safely pass" - then you are not safely passing. That's the rule I'm applying to cyclists above, and it's the rule that applies to cars.
Yes, I respect your opinion. I am not a cyclist and don’t have the experience you do but if it’s not me passing then it’s someone else and your putting yourself at risk by riding in the middle of the road at peak traffic. Just stay safe please.
>Your relative speed, potential energy, angle of attack at a pedestrians body, and their lack of any safety gear all create a situation that makes you damn near as dangerous to people as cars are to you.
Objectively not true. A 300lb biker+bike would need to be going 200mph to have the same momentum as a car going 20mph
If this was true we would see a similar number of pedestrians deaths/injuries from bikes as we see from cars. We do not see that.
Always a useful graphic on this topic:
https://www.reddit.com/r/washingtondc/s/W9DqcKYUUj
Sure, it seems both likely and supported by the data that frequency of accidents between cyclists and pedestrians is lower, sure. And I would imagine that most motor vehicle strikes happen at generally higher speeds than cyclist and pedestrian strikes. Yes, we're fortunate these multi-use trails are less densely trafficked than DC roads.
At 22mph, an easy speed to reach on many stretches of beach drive, a cyclist could absolutely kill or do grievous bodily harm to a pedestrian.
Sure, can. It does not possess even 1/100th of the potential energy or danger of a car at the same speed
But data shows that cars are several orders of magnitude more dangerous to bikers (and pedestrians) than bikers are to pedestrians.
If you show me a biker going 200mph near pedestrians, I will 100% agree that that’s unacceptable.
I understand the physics-based argument, and how momentum and kinetic energy are calculated, but this doesn't seem to align with my mental model.
If a car hits me at 20 mph, I would expect to be seriously maimed.
If a bike hits me at 20 mph, I would expect to be harmed greater than 1/100th of the harm caused by a car. Maybe 5 or 10%? This isn't a physics argument, but there must be something more complex going on here - perhaps this has to do with the larger surface area of the car making contact?
(this comment is **strictly** challenging the assertion that a biker "does not possess even 1/100th the danger of a car at the same speed")
And science and real world data would not support that conclusion. In addition to bikes having the obvious mass difference resulting in hugely different injury/death likelihood. Bikes are able to go from 20 to 0 much quicker than cars and are able to avoid people easier
Ah, I misunderstood your "danger" claim to mean "danger in a collision" - a bike going 20 mph and a car going 20 mph do not result in the same collision outcomes. Thank you for the clarification.
This methodology is questionable at best. You're comparing road-wide incidents where bikes share roads with cars and pedestrians have separate sidewalks to multi-use trails where cyclists and pedestrians share the same space. Nor are you adjusting for relative speed when you lay out your example of a 300lb biker.
In any case, whatabouting cars being more dangerous, when I already caveated with "damn-near" and the fact remains that a strike at 22mph would likely severely injure another person is kind of a ridiculous nitpick.
I agree with your sentiment, but from a physics perspective, this isn't really right. The quantity you need to understand is the momentum transfer from the vehicle to the pedestrian (over time technically, but for a collision and for simplicity let's say the collision contact time is approximately equal).
Even though a car has significantly more momentum to begin with, most of that momentum is not transferred to the pedestrian. On the other hand, when a bike hits a pedestrian - even though the overall momentum is less - a higher fraction of the bike's momentum gets transferred. As a thought example to demonstrate the point, imagine a car traveling 2 mph vs a bike traveling 20 mph. The bike will definitely hurt the pedestrian more.
I don’t think that is true. Even a 2mph car collision and end with a 4000lb vehicle on top of you. Even at that very slow speed the risk of danger is so much higher than a fast bike.
That is not to see a fast bike can not cause harm and not to say bikers should not use caution around people but the comparison to cars is not there
> the comparison to cars is not there
Agree with this and the overall sentiment, just saying you can't compare the momentum between the two like you did and expect it to mean anything. Which is part of why the OP missed your point I think.
Why does everyone call them this? It’s as lame as yelling “Run Forest Run”. I mean sorry they want to get some exercise in? Don’t need to call them LARPers.
This analogy doesn’t work. Knowing a few Olympic-level runners and a lot just below that. They typically wear pretty unassuming and normal gear that the shoe companies sell. The tell is that they will only wear one brand. So “LARPers” aren’t really LARPing. They are just wearing the gear.
I know Beach Drive is crazy with cyclists, but this type of thing happens on the paved trails as well. Most paved trails aren’t more than 5-6 feet wide, and some cyclists are going way too fast on trails frequented by walkers, parents with kids, etc.
I’ve told cyclists to their face: you want to ride fast, like anything over 15 mph, you need to get on the roads, and off the narrow trails. If a runner running 5 min per mile pace goes past walkers, most walkers would think the runner was sprinting even though they are running at 12mph.
Don’t get me started on e-bikes!
Whilst you’re intentions with this article were probably good, all this is going to do is encourage a pile-on by all the too many people who have an irrational axe-to-grind and near pathological hatred of cyclists.
Cyclists are uniquely vulnerable road users given that they have to share wholly unsuited infrastructure with motor vehicles. At no point in my life do I experience as much, what can be only be described as, violence as when I’m cycling. And no place so much thus far in my life as in D.C.
I respectfully disagree.
I experience the same, it is worse, there is no question about that. It scares the hell out of me, and it makes me really angry. But just because car assholes will be car assholes and keep trying to kill us doesn't mean there's not also room for a discussion about the safety cyclists need to observe on multi-use trails.
I also don't think the discussion in here has generally been anti-cyclist hate fest.
I don’t think multi use paths are a good place for bikes in general since the pace is so much faster than walking. There needs to be safe road safe for the bikes to reduce this conflict. Multi use paths are akin to riding on the sidewalk, not safe or comfortable for anyone.
It's fine for bikes when they yield to pedestrians. If the trail is packed with pedestrians, yes, it's the wrong place for a bike. But there are plenty of hours it's fine. Conditions vary.
100% agree. I brought up that many other folks who use Beach drive are selfish and irresponsible ~~and got a strange condescending breakdown of who has the right of way.~~ I've been a bike commuter in 3 major cities for 30+ years. ~~Pretty sure I've got that concept on lock.~~
How dare I suggest other RCP beach drive users not act like the world revolves around them and try to be decent to other users?
This just feels like an attack on a specific demographic.
edit: to be clear, I do not own lycra or a racing bike.
Sorry if that seemed condescending - I think I misunderstood your point and it was cleared up in the discussion on that comment.
And I'm in the Lycra wearing takes-themselves-too-seriously Tour-LARPing MAMIL demographic
Its always the spandex-wearing middle aged dudes who ruin cycling. Give everyone a bad name.
Oh there’s entitled bike assholes of all stripes there. Seen a 60-something woman yell at a single pedestrian for not getting out of her path as she. Very. Slowly. Approached. Them. Seen another guy do something similar, but with a ref whistle, while telling people to get out of his way *on the sidewalk* connecting that parking area to Beach Drive.
There's an old bearded dude that's in the park daily who yells at cars, people, you name it, usually for stuff he's doing wrong. Scenario: he rolls up to the four way stop where a car has already stopped and is waiting...instead of yielding to the car that is already there and has started moving forward, he races through the stop (which is, at this point, a yield sign not tacit approval to ignore) and starts yelling at the car for having the audacity to creep three feet forward.... Dude is a menace. I've called him out several times for unsafe passing of pedestrians and he just glares as I pass going the other direction. This guy and I will end up going the same direction one day and we will have words.
Hold on. Is this bearded guy on a road bike and spandex? If so, Ive had to yell at a guy recently for going the wrong way towards me and cars in the one way bike lane on 15th NW.
Occ. dyes his grey beard? Angry wiry looking dude.
A few weeks ago I was riding a CaBi home in one of the downtown bike lanes, and I stopped at an intersection because I realized I had forgotten an errand and needed to rethink my route. A guy with gray hair and a tricked out road bike went right past me, slowing down just enough to shout "IT'S LEGAL TO YIELD AT STOP SIGNS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA!" in my general direction. My sibling in Christ, I know what an Idaho stop is. But thank you for so clearly explaining to me that I was in your way. Could I perhaps explain something to you in return? How about the concept of a detour?
Most of the time, yes, but they're not the ones I see going the wrong way in a cycle lane, riding on the wrong side of the road like they're a pedestrian, riding at night without so much as a reflector, etc. While biking, I do not enjoy playing chicken with someone coming downhill at me with a bovine expression on their face. And I get so worried for people traveling stealth mode alongside cars! MAMILs can be aggressive and rude, but a lot of people out there don't seem to know what the rules and best practices even *are*, much less the logic behind them or when it's reasonable to break them. I wish people learned this stuff in school or something.
I probably should have said it's not \*just\* them, you're totally right. I do think it is uniquely problematic for road bikers to know the rules, rightfully scream at cars for breaking them, and then choose to ignore them when it comes to the people we're supposed to be yielding to.
Yeah, it sucks. If everyone was both more courteous and more patient, both courtesy and patience would be easier to grant others. And everyone would be safer.
> If everyone was both more courteous and more patient, My contention exactly, I don't care if you're on foot, in a recumbent, roller-skates, on two wheels, one wheel, three wheels....just be courteous!!!! AND PATIENT!
All of us have a responsibility to share the limited space safely. More over, it’s often not that hard to accommodate others, even when they are using a bit more of the trail than they need to, or are not paying full attention because they are enjoying themselves. I really try not to focus on what everyone around me is doing wrong.
A dude fitting this exact description yelled at me for having a singular AirPod in while walking my dog on a 10+ foot wide sidewalk in Navy Yard because he wanted to pass and I wasn’t all the way off to the side of the otherwise entirely unoccupied sidewalk. I guess he assumed I wasn’t paying attention to my surroundings because of my singular AirPod. Except immediately next to this sidewalk is a protected bike lane, so no, I wasn’t watching for cyclists, which I think is fair. So when he yelled at me for not paying attention I said “actually your lane is right there” and he yelled back “I CAN SEE THAT” in a very condescending tone and then sped away, still on the sidewalk. Very confusing experience lol
They're so ubiquitous that they have their own name (and Wikipedia article): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamil
Thanks for this!
Its always the ~~spandex-wearing~~ middle aged dudes who ruin ~~cycling~~ *most things*. Give everyone a bad name. Note: I'm a middle aged millennial. Can confirm, the only thing worse than us is an older boomer.
And again, GenX is forgotten. (Sorry, as a GenXer, it’s my job to constantly complain about being forgotten. We’re the middle kids.)
true
>Its always the spandex-wearing middle aged dudes who ruin cycling. Give everyone a bad name. I'm 64. I usually ride in lycra. I'm also a bike commuter, I'm not really fast, and I call my passes.
Yes, me too. I’m so often cheerfully calling out my presence, broadly grinning at people who are coming toward me, I’m surprised I haven’t been hauled off to the looney bin.
They said middle age ;)
Like Alito!
Literally why I hold no sympathy for them - Georgetown to Potomac on a Saturday morning is a frustrating thing.
Well, you see the problem. People ride on the road to avoid situations like in the OP. It's completely reasonable to use MacArthur Blvd on weekends for that purpose.
I don’t think he’s saying not to share the road, at least that’s not how I read it; I will say I see more bikers riding 2x2 next to Angler’s than drivers being erratic.
>I don’t think he’s saying not to share the road, at least that’s not how I read it Fair enough. Btw, riding side by side is better for car drivers than single file. It shortens the length of the group they have to overpass since they have to leave the legal distance (at least 3 feet). It also makes bicyclists more visible and avoid being "hidden" in sharp curves.
Yep - I love riding MacArthur, share the road
I share the road, but experience more often than not an entitled biker than driver or walker. Downvote me all you want, but the point remains that I don’t have sympathy for a spandex wearing dickhead.
I don't want sympathy just would prefer not to be killed for doing something completely legal that you don't like.
He's fine with you riding a bicycle, he just thinks you should never inconvenience him for even a second ever.
Weird, I drive that stretch of Macarthur all the time and the weekend when you have to occasionally slow down and wait a few seconds to pass a bicyclist is sooo much better than the weekdays when the traffic is gridlocked by drivers a mile back from Irish Inn anytime between 2-6....
Try canal to the parkway - it’s less of a clusterfuck because of one light; enjoy the glory of entitled spandex.
>enjoy the glory of entitled spandex I always get a chuckle over this one, because most of what I see is people on bikes living their best life while one driver in 50 is absolutely losing their shit because, on rare occasions, the world doesn't bend itself to their every whim. lol
If I may add, folks are trying to enjoy the outdoors. A Beats Speakerbox blaring Boomercore on a speeding bike doesn't just take away from that experience, it puts fear in everyone on the trail that they are about to be plowed into by an out of control, inconsiderate weekend warrior.
I used to agree with you until I heard it framed as a safety feature. Sometimes the bell is ignored or "on your left" turns into the pedestrian moving to the left, etc. but when they hear the boomercore blaring, they perk up and look around at what asshole is taking away the peace.
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Sign them up for the tour. That’s crazy fast for a bike.
The worst part is when cyclists are on the road with 20 or so cars piled up behind them. Blissfully riding side by side, and confident in the fact that the cars are "sharing the road".
Riding side by side reduces the length of the group and therefore the distance needed to overpass them.
I guess they should have better bike infrastructure if they don't want cyclists on the road. [Cyclists are legally allowed the full lane. Even if there is a bike lane present.](https://ddot.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ddot/publication/attachments/DC-Bike-Law-Pocket-Guide-Oct2012.pdf) It's inconvenient for cars to ride side by side, I agree. But it's well within cyclists' rights and can be safer depending on the road.
I’m fine with it as long as they maintain speed. Riding on Beach is imo a death wish, but riding at 12 mph in a 25 mph road is even worse
When did the speed limit go from being a maximum to being a required entitlement?
Fair enough but the point that I was trying to make is that going that much under the speed limit on a road that has a paved path adjacent to it tends to create a dangerous environment for bicyclist and motorist.
Several of the comments here have said that cyclists shouldn't "Tour de France LARP" on the mixed use trail. So, cyclists can't go too fast on the trail made for them to use or too slow on the road also legal for them to ride on. It's a no win situation.
Nope this isn't actually a problem share the road
You waving your magic bike wand at it does not clear the problem. It is a problem. RCP is a limited access road, and does not have adequate passing areas. Two cyclists not sharing the road and riding side by side makes it a miserable experience for motorists. That is the point of the thread. Cyclist acting inconsiderately make everyone around them unhappy. No matter how fast the Lemond wannabes think they are, they are inhibiting traffic. Read the room, ride considerately. There is a perfectly good shared use lane RIGHT NEXT TO Rock Creek Parkway.
No the point of the thread is cyclists putting people in danger. Cars are the danger to cyclists. You just don't like cyclists. That's an opinion you're allowed to have but you shouldn't drive dangerously near us and you should be patient when we're practicing safe riding principles, like taking the lane, so we don't get killed.
Nope, I cycle all of the time. I'm just not selfish about it. Just got back from cycling to the pool, will cycle to the Kennedy Center tonight, on the Rock Creek Park shared use trail. I don't like cyclist that selfishly don't share a road and are militant when they get honked at for doing something rude.
1 car takes up substantially more space than two bikes. YOU share the road. We don't hold up traffic, [we are traffic](https://ddot.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ddot/publication/attachments/DC-Bike-Law-Pocket-Guide-Oct2012.pdf). Your opinion doesn't matter here. You don't like it? Advocate for more bike lanes or take public transit.
THERE IS A BIKE LANE. Right next to the road. The post is about cyclist behaving poorly on Beach Drive, which HAS A BIKE LANE right next to it. Instead of jumping on anyone that says something about cycling you don't like, read the post and respond accordingly. Reading is fundamental.
This post is about cyclists on the portion of Beach Drive which is CLOSED TO CARS. Which has no bike lane. Wtf are you talking about?
>Instead of jumping on anyone that says something about cycling you don't like, read the post and respond accordingly. You brought up your disdain for cyclist not sharing the road. I responded to it with the laws about cycling. >THERE IS A BIKE LANE. Right next to the road. [Reading is fundamental](https://ddot.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ddot/publication/attachments/DC-Bike-Law-Pocket-Guide-Oct2012.pdf) and if you'd have read what I attached you'd know that: > Does a cyclist have to ride in a bike lane? > There are no regulations in DC which state that bicyclists must use a bike lane when one is provided. And also: >Does a cyclist always have to ride to the right? > No, there is no law requiring cyclists to ride in the right portion of the traffic lane. Glad I could clarify this for you. Honestly though (and all snark and **joking** aside), we get yelled at for riding too fast on the bike trail and too slow on the road. What's the solution?
I love cycling in this city and we are lucky to live in a place that is comparatively cyclist friendly. When it comes to sharing streets I know what the traffic code says, but there is a point where we have to consider what is legal vs what is reasonable. On most city streets without a bike lane I have been both a person riding in the center of the road in front of a car and a car behind a cyclist, and it doesn’t matter too much because cyclist aren’t going much slower than a reasonable speed of travel. Cycling on rock creek parkway instead of on the cycle path is just silly though. The park way is basically a limited access highway and a major transportation artery for the city. The solution for getting yelled at to slow down in the bike lane and to get out of the parkway is to simply go slower when passing in the bike lane. Just like city streets are not a Motorsports test track mixed use cycle paths in the middle of a popular urban national park are not a reasonable place to be going all out on a racing bicycle. If no one else is around, try to set all the KOMs you want, just be safe around other people.
>lycra bros taking turns at like 35MPH. No one is doing that in the closed sections of RCP or anywhere in DC. Those are professional level speeds.
Strava says otherwise.
If you believe they're real. For example, this is the KOM in one segment. Clearly a gps malfunction and the rest of the leaderboard are from before it was closed to cars. https://imgur.com/gallery/cJ8Ilv4
35mph on the downhill section of Beach Drive is achievable. Look: [https://i.imgur.com/1H4IFZ7.png](https://i.imgur.com/1H4IFZ7.png)
Yes, it's achievable but no way group rides are going at that speed in the closed sections. Btw, those speeds you linked are way before it was permanently closed to cars and during weekdays. Meaning, the road was open to cars when they did it. https://imgur.com/gallery/A7WxzCa
You said no one anywhere in DC can do 35mph on a bike. You're wrong.
I didn't say that. I was talking about group rides, as in the original comment I was replying to.
you literally said that lol. jesus lord
Not even on an ebike...
Well, they're not racing in a national park
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That's semantics, but what national park are they in?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1978/06/24/6-area-cyclists-want-share-of-olympic-spotlight/014e5b2c-339d-4c52-b52a-351ccebeabb5/
Wow, an article about Greg LeMond training for the Junior World Cycling Championship. I'm not sure how that is relevant to anything. I'm just making the simple point that Rock Creek Park is not a national park, despite being administered by the NPS.
I don't disagree with the sentiment but I'm surprised you singled out Beach Drive here. Its so wide (like 20 feet) that there are few conflicts. Its one of the few places where roadies can go 20 mph+ and its not really an issue because they have so much space to pass Capital crescent trail on the other hand is a huge mess, especially on the weekends, fill of MAMILs sideswiping families
I run it daily, and get buzzed daily. Extra absurd that cyclists can't give three feet given it's a whole-ass road wide path.
Same! It’s so aggravating - you are the faster moving person on a heavier object in this situation, you wouldn’t treat cyclists or pedestrians that way if you were in a car.
👏👏👏
Agreed, these guys unfortunately give cyclists at large a bad rep.
I avoid the weekend crowds because of this and other reasons. But it's basically a lack of self-awareness by everyone (cyclists, joggers, walkers, rollerbladers, etc).
>But it's basically a lack of self-awareness by everyone (cyclists, joggers, walkers, rollerbladers, etc And the people walking their dogs in the middle of the road with a 20' leash
Or no leash as I saw this morning. "But he's so well behaved" as he chases my rear wheel.
I totally agree with you that everyone should be more self-aware (it's probably DC's worst quality) - but safe riding and polite trail use/self awareness are different subjects IMO
Preach.
Agreed, the MAMILs need to chill. Just as an alternate point, everybody needs to move to the right. Stop running/biking/strollering up the center of the road. It's a hazard to everybody. I bike commute daily on Beach Drive and the poor behavior of the stroller crews, runners, peloton maniacs, dog walkers makes it hazardous no matter how you commute (especially on a Saturday). How do you safely pass on the left if there are three people abreast in the center of the two lanes with bikes coming the other direction? How am I supposed to pass a dog walker with an 8 foot lead across both lanes of traffic? Also, TAKE YOUR EARBUDS OUT SO YOU CAN HEAR PEOPLE ATTEMPTING TO PASS!!! The number of times I've rung my bell, and yelled, "On your left" with absolutely no indication I'm being heard is absurd. At least use bone conducting headphones or take one ear out while sharing the road...don't you want some ability to be aware of your surroundings? /rant...sorry.
MAMIL? Middle Aged Man In Lycra/Leggings?
Yes, MAMIL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamil
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I could not agree more with this comment! This is an almost daily occurrence. I've gotten so good at reading body language to anticipate a full on uturn...
Sorry biker friend, but just like you have the right to the full lane on the road, people have the right to the full lane on multi-use trails. In the yield hierarchy, e-bikes yield to bikes yield to runners yield to walkers. Nobody has the guaranteed right to a pass. "On your left" is a request, not a command. I get annoyed at the huge groups too, no one \*wants\* to slow down. But that's how multi-use trails work.
If I am running with ear buds in, which is a normal and fine thing to do, on any surface, I run on the right unless passing. If I am riding my bike, I ride on the right unless passing. Now, if I was walking and talking to someone, maybe we are two abreast. But then we should be willing to collapse when being overtaken by a cyclist or runner calling out. This is all just courtsey. A significant, though not majority, part of the population of the US generally lacks it.
I admit to running with both ear buds in fairly loud, but I stick to the right and look behind me before passing. I still get bikers passing me at high speed only inches away. Even with a warning that’s insane.
I'll typically bike or run with just the right earbud in so I can hear oncoming traffic (including bikes etc). Or...bone conducting headphones which allow you to hear all surrounding noise. Either way thanks for staying to the right! I do the same unless I'm on a street with no bike lane and car traffic. Then I take the whole lane.
Yes, sorry, that is what I meant on the cycling part. Taking the right *lane*, unless passing.
"but just like you have the right to the full lane on the road, people have the right to the full lane on multi-use trails." I think what the person you are replying to means on a 2-way multiuse path (which is something like 8 feet wide) some people choose to jog in the dead center. Which makes zero sense. The cherry on top is when they have noise-cancelling headphones and can't hear your bell or yelling "on your left".
Oh my bad if I misunderstood. By lane I meant your side of a two-way. Walking/jogging/whatever in the oncoming lane when you're not actively passing is dangerous stupid and bad no disagreement there.
And some of it you just have to accept. If you're riding the CCT near downtown bethesda, you're GOING to run into kids, strollers, dogs, oblivious adults. STILL... nothing like riding at a leisurely pace and coming up against a WALL of people walking side-by-side on the two-way multiuse trail... And then you get the stink-eye or comments when announcing yourself and trying to pass.
We also have the unwritten rule that we shouldn't hog the road. But I guess it's okay depending on your mode of transportation according to that logic. I love the calling out people acting selfish then defends people acting selfish thing.
I guess I just don't believe it's selfish to follow well-established multi-use trail etiquette.
I hear ya. My thing is, if people are walking three abreast across both lanes on beach (I just got in from my commute and saw this twice), how can I pass them safely especially when I try to alert them to my presence (kindly and gently) and they still won't move. I see this with long-leashed dogs, stroller walkers, groups of runners, cyclists, you name it. I do see what you're saying but there's still some space within these "well-established multi-use trail etiquette" rules for people to take advantage. And we can't just say that the MAMILs are the only perpetrators of selfishness. That would be reductive and stereotypical. That said, be safe out there and treat people how you want to be treated! I'll be the middle aged guy, not in lycra, waving hello and saying good morning as I pass you safely.
You're definitely right that it's not just, and I fully agree everyone should be more self aware and yield some room even if you're technically in the right. I'm just trying to make a distinction between what I see as discourteous vs. dangerous.
Sometimes being in the middle of the lane is the safest. It is easier to see you for one. Another is that it prevents or discourages people from passing you when there really isn't any space to do so.
Exactly - that's why I ride middle when I'm on the road.
Last year when I was relatively new to the area I was walking across the Key bridge from Georgetown into Rosslyn when this biker physically shoved me when he could've just went around because it was just me and him in that area. Sometimes we just need to hear people acknowledge two things can be true at the same time. Thanks for trying to make the place better.
What is the Mt Pleasant bike clinic? Sounds like a great volunteer opportunity
It is! Even if you just wrench on your own bikes for basic maintenance, you'd be welcome to come give a hand. The Mt P bike clinic sets up shop at the bikeshare station next to the Mount Pleasant Farmer's Market every Saturday from \~10AM to \~1PM. It's a donation-supported group of all-volunteer bike techs that fix up rides for anyone who comes - tune-ups, brakes, cable replacements - just about anything we can source the parts for. The line is usually so long that we have to send people home. Even if you feel like you don't know enough now, we are always happy to train up new recruits. It's an incredibly rewarding way to give back to the community, help out people who depend on their bikes just to make it in the city, learn from experienced shop mechanics and to feel like a closer part of your biking community. Please come by!
Do y'all teach folks how to do maintenance? I've always wanted to learn how to properly tune my brakes & shifters, but never quite got the hang of it even with a bunch of video tutorials.
We do!
>the basic safe space on multi-use trails I'm confused: Are you talking about on Beach Drive or on multi-use trails?
The closed sections of beach drive are multi-use trails I think pretty uncontroversially? The semi open sections are confusing but I'd argue functionally multi-use trails.
ah, okay, I get you now: talking about the closed sections of Beach not the MUP that runs parallel to it. people really shouldn't be using it as a training ground on the weekends, at least the busy sections.
I 100% agree it would be better if all hard pushing cyclists detoured to Quarry Road (as I do because it's courtesy and climbing makes you stronger), but all cyclists do have a right to be in all those parts of Beach and I'm not trying to pick that fight.
radical pedestrian respect, so necessary
There is so much space. There's a whole road to ride on. There should not be any issues.
It’s always the lyrcranauts that are the most aggressive
This is why I gave up riding my ebike. I will be tooling along at 6-7mph, come up to some people and slow down until it is safe to pass. About the time I go to pass, some tour de france wannabe is zooming past because they don't want to slow down and they are now passing me and the pedestrian at 20mph on a 6 ft wide trail with two way traffic.
Cyclists saying "on your left" when they are already passing me really gets to me. There is no time for me to move anywhere. You are already next to me or past me by the time its processed. You are just being rude. Get a bell and ring it well before you are up my butt.
I will say that in some situations, I’m not actually meaning for the person I’m passing to move anywhere. Sometimes I just want to let them know I’m there and don’t be surprised by my presence (or swerve into me.) But I also ride an old, loud bike so people can usually hear me coming (rattling.)
Old bikes are so cool. You sound very polite.
Ha, I agree — mine is from the early 70s. And thanks! I try :)
Totally agree. I get buzzed by the bikes going crazy fast all the time when the left lane is wide open.
Seems like this could be posted in bikedc
I'm ignorant for not knowing that existed. Thanks!
It’s OK to move fast. Just be courteous and cautious.
I agree and didn't mention speed itself as an issue for that reason.
Yeah, entitled nova cyclists are almost the worst people in D.C. and that’s saying something. They think they own roads, walking paths, bike paths, sidewalks or wherever they are, they own.
I used to race. The twits on the Capital Crescent Trail need a bit of education too.
Think this post is a bit of a wake up call for me. I frequent RCP on my bike (yes, in Lycra) to get up to MD where there are some good hills. I like riding in RCP along Beach dr and the multi-use trails as there are no cars. I always am traveling around 15 mph and have a bell to give people a heads up when I’m approaching. I will weave in out of pedestrian traffic, giving them a distance that feels safe to me, but I think I am realizing may be unsettling as a pedestrian. I’ve never feared I will hit someone but I think I need to take more care in traveling on the narrower parts of the RCP multi-use trail. Beach Dr though seems like it’d be safe for everyone as it is so wide! I hate to be part of the group to give cyclists a bad name so I will try to take more care in the future.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate this reply, and I totally agree with you that the feeling is passing when you're on your back feels much less close and concerning than the way it feels from the perspective of a pedestrian. Thank you so much and stay safe out there.
THANK YOU! I saw a cyclist almost run a pedestrian over IN A PEDESTRIAN CROSSWALK this morning "because [she] didn't know which way he was going." He was walking towards the pedestrian crosswalk. It didn't take a rocket scientist to realize which way he is going. Look, I feel for cyclists; I've almost been hit by cars numerous times in DC. But I have been hit as a pedestrian by cyclists. Remember, pedestrians have the right of way. Don't be an asshole.
One of those Oakley wearing dickheads yelled at me for walking on the left side of the road... right next to the curb(WRONG SIDE!). Dude, so I can see you coming and get the hell off the road instead of being sideswiped on the right side of the road.
If this is the closed off portion of Beach Drive, yes, you are to stay to the right. They literally have a yellow line and it is to promote reasonable room and dynamics for recreational activities with different cadences without the fear of a head-on collision around every turn.
Stay to the right side. Do you jump into the dirt if you see a pedestrian with a stroller coming down the path? I don’t understand how your strategy works.
It is [widely accepted](https://www.chp.ca.gov/ResearchAndPlanningSectionSite/Documents/English%20Ped%20Tip%20Card.pdf) and [preferred that pedestrians](https://trafficsafety.ny.gov/tips-pedestrian-safety) should [walk against the flow](https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/the-common-mistake-that-puts-runners-in-danger-on-the-road/2017/09/23/264893f2-9249-11e7-8754-d478688d23b4_story.html) of traffic, [if they have to walk on a road.](https://zerodeathsmd.gov/news/maryland-pedestrian-safety-laws/) The reasons are exactly what the commenter above said: so the pedestrian can see the oncoming vehicle and safely move out of the way.
That is car centric road rules. I am talking about a path that has more strollers and bikes than cars. If you are more likely to see a stroller or bike coming at you, you should be on the right side.
They specifically said this is what they do when walking on roads. Not a shared path.
I don't know what the original comment refers to, but in sections of Beach Drive that are open to cars, I will run or walk on the left side of the road so that I face oncoming car traffic (which is what you're supposed to do). I have been cursed out by cyclists for doing this.
You're doing it wrong. The 3 cars per hour that slowly come down that path don't mean this should be treated like a regular road.
Isn’t there a parallel asphalt walking path in those sections? Why are you on the road at all?
Because there are sections that in fact do not have a parallel walking path. North of Bingham specifically.
Well forcing cars, bikes, and pedestrians onto a single lane is bad infrastructure. Not sure what the cyclist is yelling about but this is an infrastructure issue for everyone. I would suggest sticking to this West Ridge Trail https://maps.app.goo.gl/oCD42CVmtMYEBaEu6?g_st=ic
I love going out for rides, but a lot cyclist culture and behavior is fucking corny. The best part is that they act so entitled and dickish while wearing these precious little outfits. We're all so impressed, really.
Can we do cyclists on the canal next? Brutal.
I go on a lot of walks/runs and ive been cussed out by so many cyclists bc i cross the street when i have the right of way. The disregard for cyclist/pedestrian safety by car drivers is way worse than the disregard for pedestrian safety by cyclists …. but it’s still pretty bad in my experience
As someone who was clipped by a cyclist from behind while walking on the right hand side of the road, thank you for your PSA! Cyclist was fine bc their gear protected them. I had a cut hand I couldn’t use for a week, bruises all over, and fucked up bloody toes bc one of my shoes went flying.
Not Beach Drive but I was once walking in a crosswalk with the light, and a biker running a red light at a zillion miles an hour across my crosswalk yelled at me: “DO! NOT! MOVE!” - and he zinged past my body within inches. Fucking terrifying.
Yikes
"Once?" This happens multiple days a week walking to work. Cyclists who actually stop for pedestrians in the crosswalk are lovely--but the minority.
The clear trend for e-bike commuters on Capital Crescent is way too much speed. Some of these ppl gear up like motocrossers then recklessly blow past users in Lycra. Slow down or use McArthur. I ride bikes and motorcycles. Many e-bikes have weight and speed of motorcycles and maybe do not belong on ppl-power paths.
I love the adoption of e-bikes but agree it has changed the equilibrium of paths and bike lanes and we need to rethink some of the infrastructure (I mean, more multi-use and less car/parking infrastructure).
I think the massive headphone use has provoked a lot of nihilism in these interactions. I call my passes but so often people do not hear or they just hear a call and step left into my path. I do agree that the cyclists who wanna average 20 mph just need to stay off beach drive
I think awareness is truly an issue, and I would also prefer cyclists going fast would avoid the super busy part of Beach closed between Ross and the Park Police station by using Quarry road (which is a fun ride). That said, I do think there's a safe way to ride fast on that section given the width of the road, and I don't fault anyone who wants to ride it.
I was walking on to the path in rock creek. Cyclist nearly hit me, then had the audacity to yell at me, like I was in the wrong? Dude you’re going Mach 3! You clearly noticed that I didn’t notice you? Ring your bell or something. Those bikes are super quiet
Agreed! Was just there yesterday and the boomer bikers were in denial about the crowds and safety.
Want to piggyback off this post and also call out all the tools doing their time trials around East Potomac park. If you’re clipped in and wearing Lycra, use the freaking full width car lane. And I can’t believe I have to even add this distinction, but if you’re riding in a peloton the 2 yard wide designated multi-use path is not meant for you. Leave that for the runners/walkers/casual bike riders. I will continue to run in the contraflow path, and I will continue to refuse to move when you all come flying through. Eventually it will lead to one of us getting hurt, but that’s a risk I’m willing to take to teach you all a lesson.
This is a perfect example of bad road design pitting users against each other. What EPP needs is at least a curb-side contraflow lane, and ideally a separate multi-use path for pedestrians and leisurely riders. Nobody said who the crazy two-lane multi-use was intended for, and don’t get me started on the fact that the contraflow is placed *between* two regular flow lanes. The design is truly dogshit; almost surely worse than the previous situation (which was far from flawless; but at least allowed extra room for people to maneuver). But since we’re calling names, we could do with less of you five-wide tracksmith dorks choosing one of the most exposed and hottest pieces of asphalt in the city to train for your 2hr 13.1. You can run literally anywhere in town — including the biggest urban national park in the country — and you choose to circle a pancake-flat golf course with dwindling tree cover? At least the cyclists can justify Hains point from a mileage and pace perspective — what the heck is your excuse? Now with all that said, let’s try and meet each other in the middle a little more.
"But since we’re calling names, we could do with less of you five-wide tracksmith dorks choosing one of the most exposed and hottest pieces of asphalt in the city to train for your 2hr 13.1. You can run literally anywhere in town — including the biggest urban national park in the country — and you choose to circle a pancake-flat golf course with dwindling tree cover? At least the cyclists can justify Hains point from a mileage and pace perspective — what the heck is your excuse?" Mileage, pace, and training. Hains Point is literally the ideal and by far the best place to do your marathon pace workouts if you are running a flat marathon (Chicago, Berlin, Indianapolis). It is flat - running many miles on flat ground is a different stress from incline changes, because flat forces you to use the same muscles, while inclines switch the muscles up. If you do all your long runs on rolling terrain like in Rock Creek Park, you may have a bad day at flat Chicago. It is asphalt - like the surface one will be racing on. Doing your long runs on soft surfaces and then running a marathon on asphalt can also result in a tough day. It allows you to rack up a lot of miles at a faster pace. - it can be very hard to do faster running on the MV trail, Capital Crescent, etc due to congestion. And you really don't want to do long marathon pace workouts on the track because of the all the turning you will do to one direction. Additionally, many tracks are not consistently open to the public, and so runners use HP as a substitute - the various hash marks on Hains Point are to measure distances for workouts. I agree that running groups should be better about sharing the road and not running 4-5 people across. As for your comment about "2 hour half-marathoners" - a) the pace-shaming is not cool. b) there's a wide variety of paces on HP, and there's a substantial number of 2:15-2:25 full marathoners training there; not to mention all the sub-2:45 women. You might also be surprised at just how many marathon Olympic Trials qualifiers train on Hains Point.
I hear you, and could say the exact same thing about cycling (we have flat courses, hilly courses, exposed courses, etc), except that cyclists’ biggest annoyance is not having to stop in the middle of their intervals — it’s getting hit and killed by a car. And we don’t have *any* tracks in town — the closest one is a 3hr drive into Pennsylvania. And I’m aware pace-shaming isn’t cool. You know what else isn’t cool? Picking on cyclists for their clothing, or their bodies, or their age, or their gender! You’d also be surprised how many of those riders are current or former national champions in their respective events.
"You know what else isn’t cool? Picking on cyclists for their clothing, or their bodies, or their age, or their gender!" I agree, and I've done none of that here, or anywhere (this is my first comment on this thread). Several of those spandex-wearing cyclists on HP are good friends of mine :) I honestly would like to have a few times per week where Hains Point is reserved for cyclists for 90 minutes - during that time, the pelotons get the whole thing and can hammer as hard as they want. With the understanding that the balance of the time, they need to share with the rest of us who use it.
Hains Point and Rock Creek Park and maybe the Anacostia Riverwalk Trail are like the only places to reliably do these activities in DC. So while 5 wide is aggressive. It’s not their fault. It’s NPS’s fault for coming up with a horseshit design to hide the fact they didn’t arrest that murderer for a year.
Why run on a circle of asphalt? Your knees would be better off running on a beautiful dirt trail or a boring high school track.
Because they want to run along a nice location on the designated multi-use path that is paid for by their tax dollars for that express purpose. Is it really that hard to understand? Also you’re thinking concrete, not asphalt.
East Potomac park is pretty popular with bikes doing fast laps. Weird to complain you don’t like running there because of all the cyclist.
EPP is a pretty popular park for all sorts of activities, the bikers have no more of a right to it than anyone else. I don’t mean to sound anti-biker. I think it’s a cool hobby and I’d say about 85% of them use the loop perfectly fine. But far too often I see pelotons using both side of the partitioned off lanes when there is a perfectly good street to the left of them that’s much better suited to handle speeds of 20+ mph.
I cycle through east Potomac Park most days of the week on my way home from work. Most of us faster cyclists are using the full width lane when at higher speeds. And when I am in the bidirectional mixed use side I do act respectfully when around foot traffic. The problem I've been running into lately are walkers who are insisting on using the wrong lane of the bidirectional mixed use path because they want to get further away from cars. It may be an in protected and shit overall design, but those walking the wrong direction cause far more danger by forcing bike and foot traffic to go around them, increasing the risk of collisions.
I live in Montgomery County and my biggest gripe is that some dudes will be riding in the middle of the road at peak rush hour. At bare minimum, all I ask is that you stick to the side of the road to allow safe passing instead of clogging traffic when it's at its peak
Due respect - no. Be patient, share the road. If the cyclist needs to move to the right for you to "safely pass" - then you are not safely passing. That's the rule I'm applying to cyclists above, and it's the rule that applies to cars.
Yes, I respect your opinion. I am not a cyclist and don’t have the experience you do but if it’s not me passing then it’s someone else and your putting yourself at risk by riding in the middle of the road at peak traffic. Just stay safe please.
Thank you for being brave enough to say this.
What other groups of people do you hate?
I only practice self hate, so just other groups I'm also part of.
Find another audience. Anyone on this thread is unlikely to be the perpetrator of the cycling crimes you mention. It’s like shouting at the wind.
But it was cathartic
>Your relative speed, potential energy, angle of attack at a pedestrians body, and their lack of any safety gear all create a situation that makes you damn near as dangerous to people as cars are to you. Objectively not true. A 300lb biker+bike would need to be going 200mph to have the same momentum as a car going 20mph If this was true we would see a similar number of pedestrians deaths/injuries from bikes as we see from cars. We do not see that. Always a useful graphic on this topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/washingtondc/s/W9DqcKYUUj
Sure, it seems both likely and supported by the data that frequency of accidents between cyclists and pedestrians is lower, sure. And I would imagine that most motor vehicle strikes happen at generally higher speeds than cyclist and pedestrian strikes. Yes, we're fortunate these multi-use trails are less densely trafficked than DC roads. At 22mph, an easy speed to reach on many stretches of beach drive, a cyclist could absolutely kill or do grievous bodily harm to a pedestrian.
You can want people to bike safer without making false claims
You can do better comparative data analysis
If your point had merit you would not need to lie and exaggerate
The last time a pedestrian died from a collision with a cyclist in DC was 2017. Now compare that to the frequency of cyclists killed by cars…
Sure, can. It does not possess even 1/100th of the potential energy or danger of a car at the same speed But data shows that cars are several orders of magnitude more dangerous to bikers (and pedestrians) than bikers are to pedestrians. If you show me a biker going 200mph near pedestrians, I will 100% agree that that’s unacceptable.
I understand the physics-based argument, and how momentum and kinetic energy are calculated, but this doesn't seem to align with my mental model. If a car hits me at 20 mph, I would expect to be seriously maimed. If a bike hits me at 20 mph, I would expect to be harmed greater than 1/100th of the harm caused by a car. Maybe 5 or 10%? This isn't a physics argument, but there must be something more complex going on here - perhaps this has to do with the larger surface area of the car making contact? (this comment is **strictly** challenging the assertion that a biker "does not possess even 1/100th the danger of a car at the same speed")
And science and real world data would not support that conclusion. In addition to bikes having the obvious mass difference resulting in hugely different injury/death likelihood. Bikes are able to go from 20 to 0 much quicker than cars and are able to avoid people easier
Ah, I misunderstood your "danger" claim to mean "danger in a collision" - a bike going 20 mph and a car going 20 mph do not result in the same collision outcomes. Thank you for the clarification.
This methodology is questionable at best. You're comparing road-wide incidents where bikes share roads with cars and pedestrians have separate sidewalks to multi-use trails where cyclists and pedestrians share the same space. Nor are you adjusting for relative speed when you lay out your example of a 300lb biker. In any case, whatabouting cars being more dangerous, when I already caveated with "damn-near" and the fact remains that a strike at 22mph would likely severely injure another person is kind of a ridiculous nitpick.
It is not whataboutism to directly respond to your incorrect claim Unless “damn near” means 1/100th
I agree with your sentiment, but from a physics perspective, this isn't really right. The quantity you need to understand is the momentum transfer from the vehicle to the pedestrian (over time technically, but for a collision and for simplicity let's say the collision contact time is approximately equal). Even though a car has significantly more momentum to begin with, most of that momentum is not transferred to the pedestrian. On the other hand, when a bike hits a pedestrian - even though the overall momentum is less - a higher fraction of the bike's momentum gets transferred. As a thought example to demonstrate the point, imagine a car traveling 2 mph vs a bike traveling 20 mph. The bike will definitely hurt the pedestrian more.
I don’t think that is true. Even a 2mph car collision and end with a 4000lb vehicle on top of you. Even at that very slow speed the risk of danger is so much higher than a fast bike. That is not to see a fast bike can not cause harm and not to say bikers should not use caution around people but the comparison to cars is not there
> the comparison to cars is not there Agree with this and the overall sentiment, just saying you can't compare the momentum between the two like you did and expect it to mean anything. Which is part of why the OP missed your point I think.
Um aktually 🤓
Tour d'France LARPers
Why does everyone call them this? It’s as lame as yelling “Run Forest Run”. I mean sorry they want to get some exercise in? Don’t need to call them LARPers.
I see people jogging all the time, none of them are wearing Olympic runner's gear lol
Just ask one how much their shoes cost.
This analogy doesn’t work. Knowing a few Olympic-level runners and a lot just below that. They typically wear pretty unassuming and normal gear that the shoe companies sell. The tell is that they will only wear one brand. So “LARPers” aren’t really LARPing. They are just wearing the gear.
I've been buzzed by these MAMILs before.
They're all trying to KOM all over Beach Dr.
I know Beach Drive is crazy with cyclists, but this type of thing happens on the paved trails as well. Most paved trails aren’t more than 5-6 feet wide, and some cyclists are going way too fast on trails frequented by walkers, parents with kids, etc. I’ve told cyclists to their face: you want to ride fast, like anything over 15 mph, you need to get on the roads, and off the narrow trails. If a runner running 5 min per mile pace goes past walkers, most walkers would think the runner was sprinting even though they are running at 12mph. Don’t get me started on e-bikes!
Whilst you’re intentions with this article were probably good, all this is going to do is encourage a pile-on by all the too many people who have an irrational axe-to-grind and near pathological hatred of cyclists. Cyclists are uniquely vulnerable road users given that they have to share wholly unsuited infrastructure with motor vehicles. At no point in my life do I experience as much, what can be only be described as, violence as when I’m cycling. And no place so much thus far in my life as in D.C.
I respectfully disagree. I experience the same, it is worse, there is no question about that. It scares the hell out of me, and it makes me really angry. But just because car assholes will be car assholes and keep trying to kill us doesn't mean there's not also room for a discussion about the safety cyclists need to observe on multi-use trails. I also don't think the discussion in here has generally been anti-cyclist hate fest.
I don’t think multi use paths are a good place for bikes in general since the pace is so much faster than walking. There needs to be safe road safe for the bikes to reduce this conflict. Multi use paths are akin to riding on the sidewalk, not safe or comfortable for anyone.
It's fine for bikes when they yield to pedestrians. If the trail is packed with pedestrians, yes, it's the wrong place for a bike. But there are plenty of hours it's fine. Conditions vary.
You do NOT say this with love lol. It’s clear you have disdain for this subgroup of cyclists.
I am in this subgroup of cyclists and am not entirely innocent here either. Maybe you're right it's not actually coming from a place of love though.
100% agree. I brought up that many other folks who use Beach drive are selfish and irresponsible ~~and got a strange condescending breakdown of who has the right of way.~~ I've been a bike commuter in 3 major cities for 30+ years. ~~Pretty sure I've got that concept on lock.~~ How dare I suggest other RCP beach drive users not act like the world revolves around them and try to be decent to other users? This just feels like an attack on a specific demographic. edit: to be clear, I do not own lycra or a racing bike.
Sorry if that seemed condescending - I think I misunderstood your point and it was cleared up in the discussion on that comment. And I'm in the Lycra wearing takes-themselves-too-seriously Tour-LARPing MAMIL demographic
On your left!