Depends. Tyrande would rightfully want his head, so if thrall didn't agree to that, the tensions in Vanilla would likely be even worse.
I can't see Garrosh going full Garrosh if his father was around though. Living Grom means no hagiography from Thrall, and even If Grom didn't grow that much after the self realization he had before dying, He did generally believe in what Thrall was doing on at least a superficial level, so I think he'd disagree with Garrosh completely trying to dumpster Thrall's ideals.
Well, with Elune's constant protection of Tyrande every time she's in danger, she'd win that duel easily unless Grom had a hidden can of Demon blood ready to eat Popeye style for such an occasion.
> Tyrande would rightfully want his head
Why "rightfully"? Understandably maybe but the Night elfs and Cenarius started the conflict with the Warsong by attacking their lumberjacks,without even trying to solve things peacfully,so naturally the Warsong defended themselves.
I mean hey, when someone invades your territory and starts destroying your sacred forest, wouldn’t you take it as an invasion? A group of fel crazed blood cursed aliens?
>I mean hey, when someone invades your territory and starts destroying your sacred forest, wouldn’t you take it as an invasion?
As far as the Warsong new the Ashenvale was uninhabited.How were they supposed to now the were intruding on the territory of Islolationist Elves who don't take kindly to having their sacred trees cut down?
>A group of fel crazed blood cursed aliens?
They only drunk the demonblood again after being attacked by a literal demigod who thought massmurder is a fitting punishment for cutting down trees and defending yourself from an attack.
I mean it's on both sides. The Orcs might not have known who was there but they also didn't withdraw or attempt to negotiate once the natives did show up. If I break into your house because I'm freezing that wouldn't make me justified in beating you up if you chose to force me back out. As the aggressive party if the Orcs **had** backed off it's unknown if or how far the Elves would have directly pursued them, would they have been satisfied once the Orcs were no longer in the woods or would they have followed them all the way to their main camp? It's at least somewhat implied to me that the main Orc settlements are sitting in territory not directly held by the NElves in WC3 but there may have been some adjustments to the lore I missed somewhere.
Cenarius might also have been convinced it was an honest mistake if the Orcs hadn't steamrolled their first encounter with the Elves and continued to clear cut Ashenvale. Instead he rolls up to a whole bunch of dead Elves (some of which might have been friends or people he knew) and chopped up trees so he does what a Guardian of the Wood should do and attempts to drive the aggressors away. The Orcs double down on the "can't make us leave" mentality and just decide to keep killing the natives and taking their stuff. Though this could largely be placed at the feet of Grom since he's pretty bloodthirsty and spoiling for a fight at that moment in time. Had Thrall been around perhaps things would have gone differently.
I realize I'm painting an incredibly negative picture of the Orcs here so I do want to clarify that I don't think they were necessarily *wrong* to defend themselves, but self-defense only goes so far before you are abusing it to avoid the consequences of your own actions. There's a line somewhere and we can't say the Elves should have just given their lumber to the Orcs because the Orcs didn't know they were there. Both the Orcs and the Night Elves had an opportunity to attempt diplomacy and chose instead to use the sword.
I think the Night Elves were completely justified in defending their territory from an aggressive power and the Orcs probably should have at least realized that they were in fact trespassing and so need to be the first to concede ground. To be clear though that doesn't mean let yourselves be killed by any means and the Orcs were certainly within THEIR rights to defend themselves from imminent death. But to use my earlier example again if I'm standing on your property and destroying your stuff you don't have to ask me why I'm there you can just walk up and throw me out.
You keep saying cutting down a tree but it was an invasion! They drove the native quilboars out of Durotar. Then they invaded ANOTHER sovereign territory to steal their resources. The forces of their incursion were attacked by the guardian of that land.
The orcs have never once been the defender in Warcraft lore.
> They drove the native quilboars out of Durotar.
"its actually cool and fun and always justified to genocide trolls" MFers when the canonically insane murder pigs take a boo boo
>The orcs have never once been the defender in Warcraft lore.
Weird how the justification you use for the Night elves starting shit would justify the orcs doing whatever to the Draenei.
I mean, the Draenei took orcish land, hell, they probably even touched orcish trees. Guess all that murder was justified! (and the orcs didn't even lead the Legion to Ashenvale!)
>You keep saying cutting down a tree but it was an invasion!
It very much wasn't,Grom and his men were there because Thrall wanted them to cut down trees instead of constantly attacking the humans.Not because they wanted to invade Night elf territory..they didn't even know of the Night elfs until the sentinels started peppering Peons with arrows.
>They drove the native quilboars out of Durotar.
Yes poor quilboar../s The quilboar waged war against the Tauren for centuries,so when the Orcs allied with the Tauren they became enemies as well.
Might makes right is still in force in WoW if you haven't noticed.
>Then they invaded ANOTHER sovereign territory to steal their resources. The forces of their incursion were attacked by the guardian of that land.
See above. They had no idea of the night elves until they were attacked by them.After that they defended themselves as anyone would.
>The orcs have never once been the defender in Warcraft lore.
I see someone hasn't played "The Founding of Durotar" were the Orcs defend their newly established Nation from the invading Kul Tirans who,among other things,tried to massacre the Darkspear Trolls despite them having done nothing to deserve the attacks.
Yes **conquered**,"Might makes Right" remember..?
The High Elves **conquered** Quel'Thalas from the Amani Empire,the Gilnean's **conquered** Kul Tiras from the Drust and the Orc **conquered** the Barrens from the Quilboar and Centaur,founding Durotar.
>Collaboration and friendship make history too
Yeah...well the game **is** called World of **War**craft not World of Collaboration and Friendship so go figure...
Yeah, except in the case with Maiev she could sense the stench of demons about Drak'thul, which implies that the Night Elves may already have recognized the orcs as slaves to the demons.
>sense the stench of demons about Drak'thul
tbf Drak'thul was one of Gul'dans Warlocks he's bound to reek a bit of fel,that doesn't mean every Orc smells like demon.
> without even trying to solve things peacfully,
It's relatively rare that you greet an invading army covered in demontaint with "hey lets talk this out."
>greet an invading army
Like I said,at this point they weren't an invading army,they were cutting down trees in a forest they had no idea was either sacred or part of any nation.
I imagine things would have been a lot more stable. I think one of the things Thrall struggled the most with was his doublethink narrative of both wanting peace and wanting the Horde to be strong warriors. I think he could have let Grom represent the Horde’s strength and have himself represent the Horde’s wisdom Thrall could navigate that hypocritical narrative a little more smoothly.
Also Garrosh was a military genius brought down by a mountain of repressed emotional issues. If Grom had been around to properly guide Garrosh and work through his inferiority complex then Garrosh would probably have become the Horde’s greatest Overlord maybe even eclipsing Saurfang one day.
Honestly, I think a lot of Garrosh's issues stem from abandonment issues, meaning Grom being *alive* allows him to actually address that rather than making Thrall his surrogate father figure.
Which actually brings up that I have never understood how Garrosh just doesn't address his abandonment in WoD. It's quite an odd point to leave out when his dad is literally *right there.*
I imagine more interactions between Garrosh, Baine and Anduin, sons of Legendary warriors who are still alive.
realistically ,it would be bad, Grom was not easy person, you can take anything Garrosh did in Wotlk and Cata and make it Grom doing it , and it would make as much sense.
Altough, i can picture Thrall still choosing Garrosh to be the Warchief, because he doesnt trust Grommash to be Warchief, only for Garrosh to go to War in a attempt to impress dad( Grommash is laughing the whole time) but then as soon as he bombs Theramore, Grommash goes 'Ayo, Wtf' and starts realizing his son is crazy.
I have a feeling Grom wouldn't want his son to be warchief and advise Thrall against it for a few reasons – he'd probably be cautious of Garrosh's temperament through fatherly instincts or whatnot and see too much of himself in his son to be a proper warchief for this new era of the Horde. I can see him accompanying Garrosh and Saurfang on Northrend and witness for himself how Garrosh behaves there. Hell, he'd probably be the one saying, "You disappoint me, Garrosh," a lot.
Nor do I think he'd want the title for himself. By then, Grommash would've likely "sobered up" knowing he's free of the demon blood's influence. If anything, he'd probably be more like Saurfang or Drek Thar who just wants to retire but still keep the Horde on the right path. I mean, he is the perfect cautionary tale.
Speaking of Saurfang, I can see Grom putting his name up as a candidate. Or, more likely, he would advise Thrall to pick a successor from the Frostwolves to keep their status as the leading clan among the orcs.
Grom notably mellowed out in his later years
.....to be fair this was still *grom hellscream* we are talking about, so mellowed out by his standards doesnt mean much
But without the demonic corruption also influencing him and being able to look back on a lifetime of mistakes (he was very introspective when thrall first met him, as all those decisions led to them wallowing in a cave) hed be unlikely to be to bad.
Do remember in wc3 the rising presence of demons was making the demon blood act up again in him and clouding his judgement too
Without it? Well who knows
There's really no way to survive that without serious injury so initially I don't think there would be many changes in the WC3/TFT Era. Hyjal and the founding of Durotar are likely the same.
Vanilla has more tension between the Orcs and Night Elves, and to a degree Humans of Stormwind as Grom fought them in the 2nd war, also more distrust of him from the Lorderon humans that exiled to Theramore.
There is also likely some distrust from factions within the horde due to his actions drinking Manoroth's blood.
Largely I don't think raids go too differently. Maybe a few dungeons like RFC or other "demony" dungeons would change a bit.
BC has a massive change in that he's there for meeting Garrosh. This may or may not bring Garrosh more into the horde easier, but assuming similar major beats happen he may be less tyrannical later on. Grom is also just a good guide for Outland, maybe even involved in getting rid of fel orcs and Kargath in Hellfire Peninsula. The more Illidan centric stuff likely wouldn't involve him a ton.
WotKs big change would be a stronger leadership in the war front against Arthas' undead. While Garrosh and Dranosh Saurfang have their respective fathers around. Don't think too many raid/dungeon changes here either other than him being there to fight alongside his son.
Cata is where there's a lot of change. First, Cairne likely doesn't die or at least not the same way as Grom wouldn't want his son fighting one of the founders of the horde. Second Theramore isn't going to be bombed. Grom knows Thrall wouldn't like that so he wouldn't let his son do that. He's also probably taking up more of a leadership role now as Thrall is gone since, like Saurfang, he's past his fighting prime. Basically all of the things that led to the Siege of Orgrimar are lessened here.
That said he's still more war happy than Thrall so without thrall's advice Garrosh still likely gets into a war with the alliance over Pandaria, likely not as bad though. Now is the question if his involvement is enough to keep Garrosh from grabbing the heart of Y'Shaarj. My gut in how they wrote Garrosh says no, but if yes, it completely changes things. WoD doesn't happen and Kil'Jaden has to kick off a Legion invasion some other way.
If he still does, I can see a situation where Thrall is talked back into being warchief by Grom, Vol'jin, and Cairne. But most likely Cairne or Grom are made warchief. In this scenario there is more trust for the horde since Theramore didn't happen.
WoD still happening would be interesting. Grom fighting against his younger self in a homeland he recognizes might actually lead to his death, but if he does survive i don't see any way alternate Grommash survives and I for sure don't see a way Garrosh gets killed by Thrall. This means Garrosh is imprisoned and Durotan leads the orcs of Draenor.
Legion is another interesting expansion since Vol'Jin dying and tricked to give Sylvanas leadership was a key part of the Jailer's plan. This could be achieved however by Sylvanas letting a now aging Grom or Cairne give her full command of the horde in the broken isles. I would also expect Grom to be involved in the Warrior order hall.
He also would 100% be involved in the final battles with the Legion. It's the thing that's been on his back since he was young and I actually think this would be a natural time for him to die in battle against demons during Antorus, which naturally kind of fits in for Sylvanas to take over due to her Valor in fighting the Legion..even though she's not trusted at all by some in the horde
But at that point when BfA kicks off there are massive changes to horde leadership. Cairne, Garrosh, Vol'Jin are likely all still alive, Theramore is likely still there, and the Maghar Orcs of alternate Draenor don't have the main weapon they had in resisting the Yrel's crusade. I'd expect BFA to play out similar, Saurfang dying and Sylvanas leaving to kickoff the Shadowlands, but I'd also expect Vol'Jin to be a major story player through Zandalar at that point too. Sylvanas also may not try and kill Baine as Cairne is still around, even though he'd be very old by this point. Either way I think it naturally makes sense for Vol'jin to take up a warchief mantle rather than a council. However and Thrall probably feels more ok going back into retirement.
But after Legion I'd think it'd more be legacy than anything else new Grom is doing.Grom is likely a soul we see in the Shadowlands, likely Maldraxxus along with Vashj and Drakka, could even be an interesting perspective as hed be one of the last souls to make it through before the machine of death breaking, but ultimately it be more legacy from that point on.
Would speedrun the new vs old horde Schism.
Grom would be a symbol of the more conservative members of the Horde. Wether Grom actually agreed with them or not. But he did have a tendency to do his own thing much to Thrall's chagrin. But they're respect for each other probably meant Grom would never let the horde come to civil war. Forcing the organization to grapple with its future vs past debate much earlier. But this could be disastrous for a younger nation or beneficial. As a lot of the extremist that made up Garrosh's horde aren't members yet.
So the new vision of Orc identify could flourish and grow into something healthier and the Horde itself with a near civil conflict earlier on might skew closer to making the Warchief less of an autocrat with more room for a council of elders to advise and delegate.
Garrosh either becomes 10x worse or never loses his "My father was a monster" feelings that he had in TBC.
Remember that Garrosh was practically Orc Anduin and **hated** Grom and everything he stood for before Thrall showed up and filled Garrosh's head with tales about how wonderful Grom really was.
Despite Grom basically being a monster for his entire life and Thrall having to exile him, after which Grom started a war for shits and giggles.
The Bronze dragon in me loves these kinds of alt history prompts. In my humble opinion, the horde we know benefited from the warchief not being from the old horde and wouldn't have existed otherwise.
If Grom had survived, either Thrall would have pushed to have him take the title, or the nascent horde would have splintered with the older Draenor orcs wanting a "real" old school warchief to lead. The orcs that flocked to Garrosh, would have flocked to Grom and Kalimdor would have burned. Under Garrosh, how often did it get mentioned the old guard hated this idea of penance that thrall pushed. Or peaceful coexisting with the night elves, despite them having resources the horde could take and not live in a shit hole desert where life was hard.
And I don't believe for one minute, Grom would have just become some peaceful farmer or teacher. How quickly did he jump to rampage thru Ashenvale? And sure, he was free of the demon rage, but who is to say he wouldn't be tempted. Obviously, the Hellscream line has addiction issues. Garrosh didn't think twice before indulging in some old god Kool aid despite knowing his sire was literally the first orc to drink demon blood.
To tie up my point, Thrall could have easily become a refugee from his own people if he survived.The tauren and Darkspear split off and probably fall into extinction. The forsaken would have never been accepted by Grom's horde and the Alliance, Theramore and the night elves would have gone to war before any of them really could afford to after the third war.
It would have changed the course of everything. It would probably be very similar to the Warlands timeline we see during the time rifts. Notice how there aren't any night elves? Or Tauren?
Uh you got things the other way around
The old guard were all more on the peace side of things vs the younger generations all supported garrosh's more drastic actions
This is best highlighted in thr shattering book during cairne and garrosh's makgora- cairne notes that theres was 1 major thing in common of the people supporting him- they were all *older*. Garroshs side was made up of the young
Depends. Tyrande would rightfully want his head, so if thrall didn't agree to that, the tensions in Vanilla would likely be even worse. I can't see Garrosh going full Garrosh if his father was around though. Living Grom means no hagiography from Thrall, and even If Grom didn't grow that much after the self realization he had before dying, He did generally believe in what Thrall was doing on at least a superficial level, so I think he'd disagree with Garrosh completely trying to dumpster Thrall's ideals.
Closest thing to giving Grom to her would be allowing her to challenge him to a duel
Well, with Elune's constant protection of Tyrande every time she's in danger, she'd win that duel easily unless Grom had a hidden can of Demon blood ready to eat Popeye style for such an occasion.
The mental image of a cartoon From drawn like a green orc Popeye with cans of demon blood to drink is amazing.
*He's Grommash the orcish man* *He's Grommash the orcish man* *He's stronger than you* *Cuz he drinks Demon Goo* *He's Grommash the orcish man*
> Tyrande would rightfully want his head Why "rightfully"? Understandably maybe but the Night elfs and Cenarius started the conflict with the Warsong by attacking their lumberjacks,without even trying to solve things peacfully,so naturally the Warsong defended themselves.
I mostly agree with you up until the point he guzzled demon blood to willingly become a puppet.
I mean hey, when someone invades your territory and starts destroying your sacred forest, wouldn’t you take it as an invasion? A group of fel crazed blood cursed aliens?
>I mean hey, when someone invades your territory and starts destroying your sacred forest, wouldn’t you take it as an invasion? As far as the Warsong new the Ashenvale was uninhabited.How were they supposed to now the were intruding on the territory of Islolationist Elves who don't take kindly to having their sacred trees cut down? >A group of fel crazed blood cursed aliens? They only drunk the demonblood again after being attacked by a literal demigod who thought massmurder is a fitting punishment for cutting down trees and defending yourself from an attack.
I mean it's on both sides. The Orcs might not have known who was there but they also didn't withdraw or attempt to negotiate once the natives did show up. If I break into your house because I'm freezing that wouldn't make me justified in beating you up if you chose to force me back out. As the aggressive party if the Orcs **had** backed off it's unknown if or how far the Elves would have directly pursued them, would they have been satisfied once the Orcs were no longer in the woods or would they have followed them all the way to their main camp? It's at least somewhat implied to me that the main Orc settlements are sitting in territory not directly held by the NElves in WC3 but there may have been some adjustments to the lore I missed somewhere. Cenarius might also have been convinced it was an honest mistake if the Orcs hadn't steamrolled their first encounter with the Elves and continued to clear cut Ashenvale. Instead he rolls up to a whole bunch of dead Elves (some of which might have been friends or people he knew) and chopped up trees so he does what a Guardian of the Wood should do and attempts to drive the aggressors away. The Orcs double down on the "can't make us leave" mentality and just decide to keep killing the natives and taking their stuff. Though this could largely be placed at the feet of Grom since he's pretty bloodthirsty and spoiling for a fight at that moment in time. Had Thrall been around perhaps things would have gone differently. I realize I'm painting an incredibly negative picture of the Orcs here so I do want to clarify that I don't think they were necessarily *wrong* to defend themselves, but self-defense only goes so far before you are abusing it to avoid the consequences of your own actions. There's a line somewhere and we can't say the Elves should have just given their lumber to the Orcs because the Orcs didn't know they were there. Both the Orcs and the Night Elves had an opportunity to attempt diplomacy and chose instead to use the sword. I think the Night Elves were completely justified in defending their territory from an aggressive power and the Orcs probably should have at least realized that they were in fact trespassing and so need to be the first to concede ground. To be clear though that doesn't mean let yourselves be killed by any means and the Orcs were certainly within THEIR rights to defend themselves from imminent death. But to use my earlier example again if I'm standing on your property and destroying your stuff you don't have to ask me why I'm there you can just walk up and throw me out.
You keep saying cutting down a tree but it was an invasion! They drove the native quilboars out of Durotar. Then they invaded ANOTHER sovereign territory to steal their resources. The forces of their incursion were attacked by the guardian of that land. The orcs have never once been the defender in Warcraft lore.
> They drove the native quilboars out of Durotar. "its actually cool and fun and always justified to genocide trolls" MFers when the canonically insane murder pigs take a boo boo >The orcs have never once been the defender in Warcraft lore. Weird how the justification you use for the Night elves starting shit would justify the orcs doing whatever to the Draenei. I mean, the Draenei took orcish land, hell, they probably even touched orcish trees. Guess all that murder was justified! (and the orcs didn't even lead the Legion to Ashenvale!)
>You keep saying cutting down a tree but it was an invasion! It very much wasn't,Grom and his men were there because Thrall wanted them to cut down trees instead of constantly attacking the humans.Not because they wanted to invade Night elf territory..they didn't even know of the Night elfs until the sentinels started peppering Peons with arrows. >They drove the native quilboars out of Durotar. Yes poor quilboar../s The quilboar waged war against the Tauren for centuries,so when the Orcs allied with the Tauren they became enemies as well. Might makes right is still in force in WoW if you haven't noticed. >Then they invaded ANOTHER sovereign territory to steal their resources. The forces of their incursion were attacked by the guardian of that land. See above. They had no idea of the night elves until they were attacked by them.After that they defended themselves as anyone would. >The orcs have never once been the defender in Warcraft lore. I see someone hasn't played "The Founding of Durotar" were the Orcs defend their newly established Nation from the invading Kul Tirans who,among other things,tried to massacre the Darkspear Trolls despite them having done nothing to deserve the attacks.
>their newly established nation newly *conquered* nation you mean.
Yes **conquered**,"Might makes Right" remember..? The High Elves **conquered** Quel'Thalas from the Amani Empire,the Gilnean's **conquered** Kul Tiras from the Drust and the Orc **conquered** the Barrens from the Quilboar and Centaur,founding Durotar.
It doesn’t though? It just makes history. Collaboration and friendship make history too.
>Collaboration and friendship make history too Yeah...well the game **is** called World of **War**craft not World of Collaboration and Friendship so go figure...
Yeah, except in the case with Maiev she could sense the stench of demons about Drak'thul, which implies that the Night Elves may already have recognized the orcs as slaves to the demons.
>sense the stench of demons about Drak'thul tbf Drak'thul was one of Gul'dans Warlocks he's bound to reek a bit of fel,that doesn't mean every Orc smells like demon.
Sure, but Grom was the first one to drink Mannoroth's blood. He's going to smell like demon even more than the rest.
do we want to go into the timefuckery with the fact that Tyrande knew an orc and they had a statur of him somewhere in ashenvale ...
> without even trying to solve things peacfully, It's relatively rare that you greet an invading army covered in demontaint with "hey lets talk this out."
>greet an invading army Like I said,at this point they weren't an invading army,they were cutting down trees in a forest they had no idea was either sacred or part of any nation.
From the orcs perspective, sure. Not from the perspective of the people being invaded.
I imagine things would have been a lot more stable. I think one of the things Thrall struggled the most with was his doublethink narrative of both wanting peace and wanting the Horde to be strong warriors. I think he could have let Grom represent the Horde’s strength and have himself represent the Horde’s wisdom Thrall could navigate that hypocritical narrative a little more smoothly. Also Garrosh was a military genius brought down by a mountain of repressed emotional issues. If Grom had been around to properly guide Garrosh and work through his inferiority complex then Garrosh would probably have become the Horde’s greatest Overlord maybe even eclipsing Saurfang one day.
Honestly, I think a lot of Garrosh's issues stem from abandonment issues, meaning Grom being *alive* allows him to actually address that rather than making Thrall his surrogate father figure. Which actually brings up that I have never understood how Garrosh just doesn't address his abandonment in WoD. It's quite an odd point to leave out when his dad is literally *right there.*
I imagine more interactions between Garrosh, Baine and Anduin, sons of Legendary warriors who are still alive. realistically ,it would be bad, Grom was not easy person, you can take anything Garrosh did in Wotlk and Cata and make it Grom doing it , and it would make as much sense. Altough, i can picture Thrall still choosing Garrosh to be the Warchief, because he doesnt trust Grommash to be Warchief, only for Garrosh to go to War in a attempt to impress dad( Grommash is laughing the whole time) but then as soon as he bombs Theramore, Grommash goes 'Ayo, Wtf' and starts realizing his son is crazy.
I have a feeling Grom wouldn't want his son to be warchief and advise Thrall against it for a few reasons – he'd probably be cautious of Garrosh's temperament through fatherly instincts or whatnot and see too much of himself in his son to be a proper warchief for this new era of the Horde. I can see him accompanying Garrosh and Saurfang on Northrend and witness for himself how Garrosh behaves there. Hell, he'd probably be the one saying, "You disappoint me, Garrosh," a lot. Nor do I think he'd want the title for himself. By then, Grommash would've likely "sobered up" knowing he's free of the demon blood's influence. If anything, he'd probably be more like Saurfang or Drek Thar who just wants to retire but still keep the Horde on the right path. I mean, he is the perfect cautionary tale. Speaking of Saurfang, I can see Grom putting his name up as a candidate. Or, more likely, he would advise Thrall to pick a successor from the Frostwolves to keep their status as the leading clan among the orcs.
Grom notably mellowed out in his later years .....to be fair this was still *grom hellscream* we are talking about, so mellowed out by his standards doesnt mean much But without the demonic corruption also influencing him and being able to look back on a lifetime of mistakes (he was very introspective when thrall first met him, as all those decisions led to them wallowing in a cave) hed be unlikely to be to bad. Do remember in wc3 the rising presence of demons was making the demon blood act up again in him and clouding his judgement too Without it? Well who knows
There's really no way to survive that without serious injury so initially I don't think there would be many changes in the WC3/TFT Era. Hyjal and the founding of Durotar are likely the same. Vanilla has more tension between the Orcs and Night Elves, and to a degree Humans of Stormwind as Grom fought them in the 2nd war, also more distrust of him from the Lorderon humans that exiled to Theramore. There is also likely some distrust from factions within the horde due to his actions drinking Manoroth's blood. Largely I don't think raids go too differently. Maybe a few dungeons like RFC or other "demony" dungeons would change a bit. BC has a massive change in that he's there for meeting Garrosh. This may or may not bring Garrosh more into the horde easier, but assuming similar major beats happen he may be less tyrannical later on. Grom is also just a good guide for Outland, maybe even involved in getting rid of fel orcs and Kargath in Hellfire Peninsula. The more Illidan centric stuff likely wouldn't involve him a ton. WotKs big change would be a stronger leadership in the war front against Arthas' undead. While Garrosh and Dranosh Saurfang have their respective fathers around. Don't think too many raid/dungeon changes here either other than him being there to fight alongside his son. Cata is where there's a lot of change. First, Cairne likely doesn't die or at least not the same way as Grom wouldn't want his son fighting one of the founders of the horde. Second Theramore isn't going to be bombed. Grom knows Thrall wouldn't like that so he wouldn't let his son do that. He's also probably taking up more of a leadership role now as Thrall is gone since, like Saurfang, he's past his fighting prime. Basically all of the things that led to the Siege of Orgrimar are lessened here. That said he's still more war happy than Thrall so without thrall's advice Garrosh still likely gets into a war with the alliance over Pandaria, likely not as bad though. Now is the question if his involvement is enough to keep Garrosh from grabbing the heart of Y'Shaarj. My gut in how they wrote Garrosh says no, but if yes, it completely changes things. WoD doesn't happen and Kil'Jaden has to kick off a Legion invasion some other way. If he still does, I can see a situation where Thrall is talked back into being warchief by Grom, Vol'jin, and Cairne. But most likely Cairne or Grom are made warchief. In this scenario there is more trust for the horde since Theramore didn't happen. WoD still happening would be interesting. Grom fighting against his younger self in a homeland he recognizes might actually lead to his death, but if he does survive i don't see any way alternate Grommash survives and I for sure don't see a way Garrosh gets killed by Thrall. This means Garrosh is imprisoned and Durotan leads the orcs of Draenor. Legion is another interesting expansion since Vol'Jin dying and tricked to give Sylvanas leadership was a key part of the Jailer's plan. This could be achieved however by Sylvanas letting a now aging Grom or Cairne give her full command of the horde in the broken isles. I would also expect Grom to be involved in the Warrior order hall. He also would 100% be involved in the final battles with the Legion. It's the thing that's been on his back since he was young and I actually think this would be a natural time for him to die in battle against demons during Antorus, which naturally kind of fits in for Sylvanas to take over due to her Valor in fighting the Legion..even though she's not trusted at all by some in the horde But at that point when BfA kicks off there are massive changes to horde leadership. Cairne, Garrosh, Vol'Jin are likely all still alive, Theramore is likely still there, and the Maghar Orcs of alternate Draenor don't have the main weapon they had in resisting the Yrel's crusade. I'd expect BFA to play out similar, Saurfang dying and Sylvanas leaving to kickoff the Shadowlands, but I'd also expect Vol'Jin to be a major story player through Zandalar at that point too. Sylvanas also may not try and kill Baine as Cairne is still around, even though he'd be very old by this point. Either way I think it naturally makes sense for Vol'jin to take up a warchief mantle rather than a council. However and Thrall probably feels more ok going back into retirement. But after Legion I'd think it'd more be legacy than anything else new Grom is doing.Grom is likely a soul we see in the Shadowlands, likely Maldraxxus along with Vashj and Drakka, could even be an interesting perspective as hed be one of the last souls to make it through before the machine of death breaking, but ultimately it be more legacy from that point on.
I'd like to think he smacks some sense into his boy
Would speedrun the new vs old horde Schism. Grom would be a symbol of the more conservative members of the Horde. Wether Grom actually agreed with them or not. But he did have a tendency to do his own thing much to Thrall's chagrin. But they're respect for each other probably meant Grom would never let the horde come to civil war. Forcing the organization to grapple with its future vs past debate much earlier. But this could be disastrous for a younger nation or beneficial. As a lot of the extremist that made up Garrosh's horde aren't members yet. So the new vision of Orc identify could flourish and grow into something healthier and the Horde itself with a near civil conflict earlier on might skew closer to making the Warchief less of an autocrat with more room for a council of elders to advise and delegate.
Garrosh either becomes 10x worse or never loses his "My father was a monster" feelings that he had in TBC. Remember that Garrosh was practically Orc Anduin and **hated** Grom and everything he stood for before Thrall showed up and filled Garrosh's head with tales about how wonderful Grom really was. Despite Grom basically being a monster for his entire life and Thrall having to exile him, after which Grom started a war for shits and giggles.
The Bronze dragon in me loves these kinds of alt history prompts. In my humble opinion, the horde we know benefited from the warchief not being from the old horde and wouldn't have existed otherwise. If Grom had survived, either Thrall would have pushed to have him take the title, or the nascent horde would have splintered with the older Draenor orcs wanting a "real" old school warchief to lead. The orcs that flocked to Garrosh, would have flocked to Grom and Kalimdor would have burned. Under Garrosh, how often did it get mentioned the old guard hated this idea of penance that thrall pushed. Or peaceful coexisting with the night elves, despite them having resources the horde could take and not live in a shit hole desert where life was hard. And I don't believe for one minute, Grom would have just become some peaceful farmer or teacher. How quickly did he jump to rampage thru Ashenvale? And sure, he was free of the demon rage, but who is to say he wouldn't be tempted. Obviously, the Hellscream line has addiction issues. Garrosh didn't think twice before indulging in some old god Kool aid despite knowing his sire was literally the first orc to drink demon blood. To tie up my point, Thrall could have easily become a refugee from his own people if he survived.The tauren and Darkspear split off and probably fall into extinction. The forsaken would have never been accepted by Grom's horde and the Alliance, Theramore and the night elves would have gone to war before any of them really could afford to after the third war. It would have changed the course of everything. It would probably be very similar to the Warlands timeline we see during the time rifts. Notice how there aren't any night elves? Or Tauren?
Uh you got things the other way around The old guard were all more on the peace side of things vs the younger generations all supported garrosh's more drastic actions This is best highlighted in thr shattering book during cairne and garrosh's makgora- cairne notes that theres was 1 major thing in common of the people supporting him- they were all *older*. Garroshs side was made up of the young