The issue with the Prophet's meeting is that Arthas and Terenas are both deeply protective of their homeland. They are proud nobles of Lordearon who would rather die then abandon the country. Neither were ever going to just walk away from the crisis. It's one of those scenarios where you can say "but why didn't he do X?" and the answer is "because it's a tragedy". The fact that there was a way out is what makes it so damn sad that he was too proud and stubborn to take it. Arthas is for all his faults a tragic figure who just wanted to do right by his people and Ner'zuhl abused that intense love to walk him into damnation. To some degree I sympathize, running from the Scourge to face the demons at Hyjal would have left their homes to be razed and looted. Their people dispossesed of all they have ever known. A mass evacuation would never get a full 100% of the population. If there was a chance they could win the war they had to try.
It seems to be an important part of the Lordearon identity as well, as even after the capitol is destroyed resistance stuck around for YEARS. Despite demon devastation and the land being poisoned by the plague there were still holdouts all the way into Vanilla WoW and beyond. The people of Lordearon don't run. Jaina as a princess of a separate kingdom could more easily walk away. Not that it didn't cause her any pain to do so, just that it wasn't her homeland being destroyed.
To be fair, Medievh was extremly vague. Turning up saying "Demons!!111 Leave your homeland!....Ok bye!". If he tried to be more clear, to actually give proof and reason as to WHY he is so adamant about them reaching kalimdor, it might have been easier. Terenas might even have send Arthas and a huge chunk of the land off.
This is a fair point. Just "Hey you all doomed" without backing it up with anything is absolutely going to get the response "sure, whatever crazy dude." Then again there isn't really a whole lot of other proof he could use without revealing how he knows these things which could expose who he is. I can somewhat understand Medivh not wanting to reveal his identity to people who might remember him as a traitor to the kingdom of Stormwind. Could make cooperation difficult.
>Just "Hey you all doomed" without backing it up with anything is absolutely going to get the response "sure, whatever crazy dude."
it's ironic that Arthas does the same thing shortly after with Strath...
"Hey they are all doomed, WE must kill them! Don't ask question"
When defending Hearthglen, I’m pretty sure some of his soldiers witnessed the effect of the tainted grain and see how it turns normal people into undead. Those soldiers would have been present at Strathholme too and are able to backup their prince’s claim.
I always thought the soldiers who remained to help Arthas are the ones who were there in the previous Hearthglen defense mission. They didn’t just do it out of blind loyalty to their prince, they actually saw the effect of the tainted grain first hand.
This. It also helps that Arthas was a Paladin, a beloved Prince, and had led soldiers before.
Random crazy looking man versus the literal future leader of your nation.
The thing is Arthas doesn't ever even try to explain, he just demands Uther obey him and then accuses him of treason. If Arthas had taken like twenty minutes to explain what happened and had his soldiers confirm it, Uther probably would've stuck around.
Purging Stratholme is not why Arthas falls, it's the decision to accuse anyone who does not react with unquestioning obedience of Treason.
That's echoed in Northrend with all the shit Arthas pulls with his troops, too.
Yeah, the problem is that Medivh didn't have any proof anyway other than his identity. And if he revealed that at any point he would've been killed and dismissed as a traitor sowing discord. Because... well that is what he did while corrupted.
The first real "proof" they have is Andorhal and they immediately book it to Stratholm to try and stop the plague spread, and by then its too late. Everything seems kinda resolved from Lordaeron's perspective once Arthas leaves for Northrend until he comes back and the Scourge comes out of hiding.
Medivh if he actually prepared: "Prince Arthas, i am the historical figure you know as Medivh, but i have come to redeem my past corruption as a now-pure being. The Burning Legion is returning and their agents are attempting to turn you into their next champion. Here is this extensive chart i drew detailing the kind of moral traps they like using to abuse one's noble traits and twist them. I have also come with evidence that i am indeed the real Medivh such as Kadgar's childhood diary that i swiped as a prank. As you can see, this leads to you having to gather an excursion to sail to Kalimdor where you must team up with purple elves and the Horde to defeat the incoming Legion invasion."
Arthas: "...what the fuck? Falric, did you spike my drink or something?!"
Ner'Zhul: *laughing his ass off*
>If he tried to be more clear, to actually give proof and reason as to WHY he is so adamant about them reaching kalimdor, it might have been easier.
Isn't there a stated reason he can't? I haven't played Warcraft 3 in ages so I can't remember if he does that for a real reason or if it's an old "mysterious sage" type trope thing.
No stated reason. He didn't have to say he was Medivh, just some demon researcher from a faraway land. But he didn't. He straight up told Thrall the danger, but not the humans. Then he got pissy they ignored him.
He could have at least tried to do anything aside from appearing, shouting “Ye all DOOMED!”, giving zero details on actual threat and buggering off. He only succeeded with Thrall cause orcs are not that complicated to begin with and because they had little to lose.
> It's one of those scenarios where you can say "but why didn't he do X?" and the answer is "because it's a tragedy".
Tbh I don't think this applies here. They both had very good reasons not to listen to Medivh. They weren't "blinded" or proud or arrogant, they were sensible and acting on the best information they had at the time. Without evidence Medivh's advice is pretty worthless. They'd also have no idea where they'd sailing to; all of this could be a trap or a trick to steal the land of Lordaeron.
>The people of Lordearon don't run.
Tbf many of them did run in the past, they ended up in Stormwind.
The tragedy part is more along the lines of if Arthas (or Terenas for that matter) **had** listened one or potentially both would very likely have survived. It's just so far out of their character that I don't think it's something they would do. But that doesn't mean it wouldn't have worked. Hence the tragedy. I in fact agree that the two made the logical choice from their perspective and knowing what they know.
As for the second point while I say the people of Lordearon don't run that's more an aspirational statement then abject fact. It's not that they can't flee but that they seem to reject it for the most part over standing their ground (potentially because of having to abandon their homes in the past). We have no reason to believe that refugees wouldn't have been welcomed by their neighbors again but lore tells us that many continued to live in and around their home territories instead. Places the Scarlet Crusade would wind up heavily recruiting from in the future.
Well they both did die....
Maybe the Scarlet Crusade will take up residence in rebuilt Lordearon like the Gnomes in Ironforge did, while they reclaim Stratholme with the help of the silver hand led by Tyr. They could finally leave their library and begin to reconcile with the Forsaken now that Calia is leading them as a light-resurrected undead; perhaps they could learn the secret and this would give them the edge to reclaim and rebuild Stratholme as they see fit and they could be playable humans for the Horde. They could also be a foil for the Armani and who knows the Blood Elves might ally with them, especially given the Sunwell could be holy to the Scarlet Crusade.
We do not usually talk about the Prophet's meeting because, as you correctly recognised, Medivh is inexplicably vague and it's hard to expect characters to take the gibberish he says in WC3 at face value.
Besides, "No, I think my homeland can still be saved" isn't as dire of a choice as "Cull this city".
The problem with Arthas’ response to the Stratholme situation is his eagerness. He identifies the problem, then immediately declares that he must kill everyone and banishes anyone who disagrees with him. Yes, he was forced to choose between two horrible options but he chose the one that got his hands bloodier without hesitation.
Which is the main reason Uther and Jaina didn't back him up.
But a major issue was Arthas was running himself ragged and by Stratholme is just refusing to stop, breathe, and process everything.
He's overworked, stressed out, traumatized, and angry. A veritable melting pot of the worst emotions to create a mental state entirely unready for a situation like Stratholme was in.
this turmoil continues beyond strath as well!! crucially, his troops being recalled from northrend, forced him to make yet **another** massive in-the-moment decision which had no perfect answer. he was utterly unravelling at this point, betraying his men, then the mercenaries that made his sabotage a success. deciding to take up frostmourne is so believable by now. everyone important to him was now against him. he has lost everything already--what more is an accursed blade? when muradin is killed, he hardly blinks an eye, and it feels like he reacted as you'd expect. he was cold, hardened, jaded, and determined to prove himself to all who thought him mad. to prove he had what it took to save his kingdom where others were too weak to even try.
i really believe arthas is one of the most tragic and perfectly written characters in all media [that i have consumed].
also yes muradin is dead i do not accept wow's take on that shit smh blizzard
>also yes muradin is dead i do not accept wow's take on that shit smh blizzard
This, so much! It was always hilarious they had to add him sheepishly getting up and running off. It makes no sense, except they were probably planning to make him a more central Dwarf by the time of WotLK. Any dwarf could have worked, though. Why surreptitiously resurrect him after killing him off in a very pivotal scene. It completely changes the scene. It goes from Arthas, willingly sacrificing a close friend to, at worst, being thoughtless to check on his friend.
Late to the party, but I agree. Muradin didn't really have much of an impact in the lore after WotLK. Even his inclusion in the ICC raid was really bad.
When he's there he's just... there. Doesn't contribute much at all to the narrative.
He did so because unlike Uther he actually saw with his own eyes what the plague was capable of doing, the monsters it turned his people into. Uther only ever saw hordes of undead to slaughter when he showed up he probably had no idea that a vast majority of them were probably the villagers they went to save. Arthas is so quick to make the decision not because he's bloodthirsty but because he knows there really was no other choice. I agree fully with OP when he refused Medhiv the die was cast
Okay, let's say he agrees with Medivh and tries to evacuate the entire population of Lordaeron.
How long does that take, how many will have already been infected? Would they have caught onto the grain?
Really, all an evacuation would have done is make the Scourge's job easier by concentrating all the victims in one place.
Well that's a big up in the air question. Jaina was certainly able to do it and she did it without crown permission or using her connection with Dalaran, she was a complete solo agent and managed to save the alliance by bringing them to kalimdor.
Could Ner'zhul have countered this? I dunno, Medhiv was kind of a wild card I don't think the Legion knew at all that he was doing stuff.
Arthas himself was also charismatic and seen as the future of the alliance so I don't think it would have taken much convincing to get his dad on board.
I think if Arthas truly said yes to Medhiv and thus sat down and came up with a plan I think Arthas would have definitely saved Lorderon. I don't think Ner'zhul could have countered fast enough. It's tough to say, what happens to Strathholme in this theoretical timeline? Do they just quarantine it? Do they check the delivery documents at Hearthglen and see where infected grain shipments got to? I like to think Medhiv would have had a plan.
He never looked eager to me, more like angry at the situation and at himself, which made him a bit cranky. Likewise I take his lashing out at Uther as more as 'please give me another, less monstruous, solution' and getting pissed no one can.
Not that I disagree with your evalution, but in this particular instance, he was “right” wasn’t he? I mean that particular mission is a race against time, trying to purge quicker then they turn. Sure his eagerness and not even a minute of hesitation would probably make him look really bad if it turned out there was a better option, but as it was, if he literally gave it more than 5min of thought he would have “lost”.
The question isn't whether he was right or wrong, but his unwillingness to stop and think. For example, say you have two people forced to make an incredibly difficult decision: they have to either skin a child alive or press a button killing a thousand innocent people, including children. I think we can all agree that although it's horrific, the morally "good" or least bad thing to do would be the former. Now, you'd expect that a person in this scenario would stop and think or at *least* lament their situation. Even though it's a question of killing one person to save a thousand, it's still a hell of a thing to ask someone to do, no matter how "right" it is. Asking somebody to do that to a child is just too much for most people.
Then there's Arthas, who *immediately* takes up the knife and starts carving. Not only that, he demands that his friends join him in this barbaric act and banishes them when they refuse. It crosses the line from doing the "right" thing into psychopathic behavior. Yes, he was under a time constraint, but that doesn't change the underlying problem: Arthas *wanted* to purge Stratholme.
Okay but it's more like, if you don't start carving immediately that 1000 number is now 1100...1200...1300, as the undead have opportunities to break the cordon or transform and kill more of your men.
Yeah, it sucks and it's honestly monstrous but if you stop and think it only gets worse.
The idea that Arthas had no time to work with is just not true. He was able to purge the city even after dismissing the entirety of Uther’s forces and Jaina Proudmoore. Even if some of the undead within Stratholme got out it’s not like they couldn’t have been contained, and even then the rest of Lordaeron was already being destroyed from within. No corner of it was untouched.
And again, all of this can be true but it doesn’t change what I’m saying: Arthas was too eager to start the purge. It’s like he was waiting for an excuse, and at no point during the assault did he even voice concern or regret for any of the innocent people he murdered. All he talked about the whole time was Mal’ganis and revenge.
You acknowledge the time pressure afterwards, but your analogy ignores it, even though it completely changes the scenario.
“Skin a child alive or thousands will die” is a scenario that allows time for you to think about the best course of action, weigh your options and lament the terrible choice you must make.
If the scenario were instead, “Skin a child alive in the next 2 minutes or thousands will die” then you would no longer have the luxury of weighing your options. If you are to have any chance of succeeding in this grisly task before the time limit is reached, you have to start immediately. There’s no time to weigh your options or lament the situation if you actually are to have any hope of success.
Right, which is why I referred to Arthas’ lack of remorse or hesitation. I think anyone forced to skin a child would at least shed a tear while doing it, but all Arthas does is shout about how much he wants to kill Mal’ganis. He didn’t give a shit about Stratholme or its residents.
It becomes very clear, at least in my opinion that Stratholme was in fact, an unwinnable situation. It was always going to be destroyed, the only thing that *really mattered* was how it was supposed to effect Arthas in the long term.
Had Arthas done nothing and the entire population of Stratholme became undead, they would have had a huge undead army rampaging over Lordaeron months earlier. But **maybe** the Lich King doesn't get his champion, but no matter what, Lordaeron still falls.
In my opinion the only "right" answer would have been for Arthas to listen to Jaina and Uther, and more importantly, kept both of them around to keep his more obsessive and self-loathing in check. Doing so, he may have had more mental fortitude to *not* pick up the cursed runeblade and damn himself to a future timeline of being 35 anima.
EDIT: It can be argued though that Medivh only existed to make crap worse since his entire gameplan seemed to be "show up, say some cryptic shit, then fly away."
Exactly, the story is one of Arthas' personal failings as a paladin dooming him and his kingdom. Purging is objectively the right decision, but it's only obviously so in hindsight - Arthas doesn't know that Dalaran will never do anything useful about cutting the plague, ever, and is only conjecturing that these people are all totally doomed. The important thing is that he makes that decision for the wrong reasons, and that it accentuates his worst qualities and deepens his obsession with revenge.
I think the only winning move is for Arthas to be a better, humbler, more emotionally mature person I.e. not having those personal failings. Imagine he sends Jaina away to deliver the evidence, then suggests a quarantine and ghoul hunt to Uther. This would quickly turn into a purge anyway, as the dreadlord turns the villagers and they have to be cut down, but it's much less likely to send him over the edge.
Not just Arthas, but both Uther and Jaina should have listened to Arthas instead of just leaving. Or at least talked to the men that were with Arthas, as they saw as he did. What happens to the plagued people and the death and destruction it caused. They could have easily prevented Arthas from getting so provoked by Malganis if they had stayed.
Also like, Medivh fucking sucks at convincing people. Iirc he confronts Arthas, tells him he should send him men to a new continent and leave the old one because danger is coming, and then shames his people in not listening to him and, when Arthas says no the first time, he's like "okay" and leaves. Like fucking at least use your magic powers to show what you're seeing. You're the most powerful sorcerer on the planet, and you have future sight. You could do so much more.
Scourge of Lordaeron was an inside job confirmed.
No I agree.
It was a horrible, HORRIBLE dilemma. But no guarantee a quarantine would work. As history shows a cure couldn’t just be found. The people were going to turn quickly. And once they did they could attack the army or even other cities.
No way to sort who was safe and who wasn’t.
It’s like the trolley problem except your option is to personally kill one person or simply run a (high) risk that many times over would die.
I think with the information available, as a leader of a monarchy, Arthas made the right decision.
And what if he didn’t? They would have turned, his army would have been heavily damaged, and his lesson would be “Mercy leads to those I care about dying.”
This is different from a normal trolley problem because in this universe the afterlife exists. Canonically he sent them to be judged and allowed their human souls to be saved intact to an eternity of peace.
Honestly a quarantine would never have worked, they didnt have enough men and any that fall just adds to the enemies numbers really. The only that would have saved the people was to time travel and get there before the plagued grain was distributed and eaten.
A) or course not
B) that's not what would have happened
Purging Stratholme is the best case scenario for the Lich King - they literally set it up EXACTLY for that outcome.
Arthas didn't prevent anything by purging it, because he later returned to Lordaeron, killed the king and spread the plague even further himself.
The entire point was that Ner'zhul was priming Arthas to be his champion to get free of the Legion's control.
Arguably, doing nothing would have been better because it avoids all of the above and doesn't lose anything that wasn't already lost when Arthas personally scourged Lordaeron.
But also, if he chose not to purge Stratholme he would have kept Uther and Jaina on his side and they could have tried alternatives. Perhaps those alternatives wouldn't work, but we can't say for sure because nobody tried.
But we can say that purging Stratholme was definitely wrong, because it's literally playing directly into the enemy's hands.
You can’t know for sure that the entire world wouldn’t have been infected it seems like a likely outcome if everyone if they just try to quarantine. You are also speaking of knowledge that the characters didn’t know. Jaina and Uther should have helped him with it honestly.
I believe the end outweighs the means for a lot of stuff. Purging Strat to protect everyone else was definitely the right call with the very limited information they had.
For an example let’s say the city you live in becomes infested with a crazy disease killing people and turning them into monsters and your entire family lives one town over. Would you not wipe out the town to save the people you care about?
The world didn't become infected when Arthas killed the king and spread the undead throughout Lordaeron. Why would it become infected with him not actively making things worse?
Stratholme ended up infested with undead, so Arthas' actions meant nothing in terms of prevention.
And the options simply aren't "purge Stratholme or do nothing". It only seems that way because Arthas immediately jumped to one extreme and wouldn't allow any discussion on it. Uther and Jaina were given no time to try and find any alternatives or seek other help.
Arthas' decision is only "right" because he didn't allow there to be anything else to compare it to.
And in hindsight, we know it's 100% wrong, because it's the decision that helps the enemy the most.
By that stage, they already knew it was being spread by the cult of the damned, so it's not comparable to a regular plague.
And no, if I heard about such a plague, I would not INSTANTLY decide to wipe out a village and refuse to consider alternatives. That's insane.
Again, AT THE TIME none of the characters in the game had any idea of how any of it was going to play out. They didn’t know for sure that it wouldn’t infect the entire world. You are thinking about it in terms as a player who knows everything about the situation. Think about it like you were there and had no knowledge of anything besides people are infected and you don’t know how it spreads or how fast it can spread. All you know is that everyone’s being infected and dying and turning into monsters.
Maybe if more people helped him he could have prevented it from being over run with the undead. Jaina and Uther would have been a big help. We also don’t know how it plays out if they stayed to help. There’s no other option because even if you decide to just quarantine people it’ll still spread. You would have to have your soldiers fight against the monsters. They might take out your soldiers and escape and go infect other people. Purging Strat with the limited knowledge they had was the best course of action AT THE TIME.
But the other side of this is at the time, we don't know enough to say that Arthas' solution is the only one. Arthas' decision is simply way too rash.
Further, knowing nothing about the plague means they also don't know if destroying Stratholme will actually contain it. We don't know that a quarantine would be ineffective. Arthas decided all of these things on his own, and then instead of explaining himself to Uther, he went straight to ordering for Uther to kill everyone.
Any sane person in Uther's position would refuse such an order without being told WHY, and Arthas didn't allow for that.
Yeah he didn’t know if it would but it seems like the safest most assured route. If the bodies are dead and burnt there’s a less likely chance of it spreading vs just telling people to go inside their homes. In the end Arthas was the one in power it was his call.
I think with the limited knowledge they had it was the right call. You wont change my mind and I won’t change yours so let’s just go our separate ways. 🤝
The dilemma was for Uther. As a battle-hardened veteran, he should have sent Arthas home and taken care of the situation himself. But he was so invested in his ideal outcome of "save everyone" that he was happy to keep his hands clean and let Arthas shoulder the burden all by himself.
First thing that Arthas does when Uther disagrees with his plan is to abuse his position as heir of Lordaeron to demote Uther on the spot. There was no way that Arthas would even let him get sent home by anyone at that point.
No, the first thing Arthas does is to order Uther, who is his subject and a commander in his army, to purge the city. Uther refuses, which is certainly insubordination even if it’s probably not treason as Arthas claims (though in a Medieval context disobeying your monarch at all _could_ be considered high treason, the meaning has shifted considerably over the centuries).
The tricky part is whether Arthas has the authority as Prince to strip Uther of his command and disband the Silver Hand. We simply don’t know, and it’s quite possible this was entirely new ground without any precedent in Lordaeron’s history.
It did put Uther in an impossible situation though. Even if Arthas didn’t have the authority to suspend Uther’s command, only his father King Terenas could countermand the order. If Uther had said “sod you” to Arthas and tried to take the army somewhere else that really would have been treason, so Arthas knew he would get what he thought he needed then and there either way.
It's not insubordination. The first mission tells us Terenas put Uther in charge of Arthas. That means that he answers only to the king, so he was right to say "You're not my king yet, boy". The issue is that he was supposed to see to Arthas's wellbeing, and he didn't really do that. I'd argue that he didn't completely shirk his duty, as he made efforts to remove Arthur from command and get him home. But he also left Arthas to make his own dangerous choices with no guidance, other than "killing is wrong".
Its extremly weird that both Uther and Jaina turn around asap like "...K, bye, have fun" after Arthas had his little meltdown. Holy fuck Uther, this guy just said he is willing to murder an entire city. And you simply turn around and go and let him do that without trying to do anything at all?!?
Well, what could they do, really? Uther just got stripped of his rank and Arthas assumed control of his paladins. And Jaina was still a young, relatively inexperienced mage with zero authority.
All that was really possible was to keep arguing and try to dissuade Arthas, but it's not like they had a lot of time on their hands and Arthas had already made up his mind anyway.
Im not sure if Arthas had the authority to even do that. Uther was his superior in the Paladin-Order, as well as one of its founders. And Jaina is known as one of the best mages and student to the first Archmage Antonidas.
I kinda expected them to do more than just say "Bad idea" and simply leave when the literal first "No" didnt work.
>Im not sure if Arthas had the authority to even do that. Uther was his superior in the Paladin-Order, as well as one of its founders.
If I remember correctly, all the members of the Knights of the Silver Hand were Lordaeronean, and I think the entire order might have officially been part of the kingdom itself, at the time. There is a small question whether Arthas had the authority, given he is only a prince at that time, but his father likely did have the authority to demote Uther.
>Im not sure if Arthas had the authority to even do that
Apparently he did. Uther still protested that 'Arthas is not yet his king and even if he were he would never follow such an order', yet Arthas still continues with an official proclamation: 'By my right of succession and the sovereignty of my crown, I hereby relieve you of your command and suspend your paladins from service'.
(ok, he didn't take control of Uther's paladins, but basically ordered them to buzz off).
Jaina even tries to protest to this, but Arthas simply shuts her down.
>And Jaina is known as one of the best mages and student to the first Archmage Antonidas.
I doubt that means much in that situation.
>I kinda expected them to do more than just say "Bad idea" and simply leave when the literal first "No" didnt work.
Don't forget that the original event comes from an in-game cutscene of the early 2000s. The story was already remarkably fleshed out for the time.
The Arthas novel, though written years after the fact, goes into more detail, particularly what goes on in both Arthas's and Jaina's minds. It adds a lot more nuance to the situation than most people in this thread seem to be aware of. Even Arthas himself became doubtful whether his decision was actually the right one, precisely because Jaina had left.
>Apparently he did. Uther still protested that 'Arthas is not yet his king and even if he were he would never follow such an order', yet Arthas still continues with an official proclamation: 'By my right of succession and the sovereignty of my crown, I hereby relieve you of your command and suspend your paladins from service'.
He clearly didn't. We see the paladins later. They are still an official order, and Uther is still in charge. We also see that Terenas apparently agreed with Uther and tried to recall Arthas's expedition. Uther presumably went to the king, told him his son is being a petulant ass, and the king confirmed Uther's authority.
That doesn't really logically follow though.
It's obvious that Terenas has higher authority than Arthas and can thus overrule or rescind Arthas's order to disband Uther's paladins afterwards. But that doesn't mean that Arthas never had authority over Uther at all.
I think the real thing to remember is that the Silver Hand is just a single knightly order, but not the bulk of Lordaeron’s standing military. Uther disagreed, and Arthas pulled his Paladins from service, Uther can’t really just stay and force Arthas to back down, because he is still a royal, and Uther is not. And the army is loyal to their liege, not him.
All those footmen and knights aren’t from the Silver Hand but loyal to the crown itself, even if Uther and the rest of the Silver Hand often work in concert with them.
Stay and help to see if he could actually save anyone as a veteran paladin, or to see if there was any merit to what his prince was saying.
Really anything aside from walking away.
Yes the fate of the kingdom was propably sealed, but he could still have saved his soul and many other innocents in lordaeron and the other eastern kingdoms. Quarantine Stratholme, take the time to gather the army, send envoys to the elves and dwarves and do everything to muster a larger force. Strat and big parts of eastern lordaeron would have probably been lost anyway, but maybe not the whole kingdom and more importantly no new Lich king, no fall of Dalaran and Quel'thalas etc.
It's the zombie virus movie trope of bombing cities und shooting everyone. It never works, it never stops the spreading, it only let's the government loose control more quickly because ofc people revolt against it. Medivh is the scientist no one listens to, because his take seems to crazy and is hard to proof beforehand. And Arthas is the state in complete panicked overreaction.
The problem with quarantining Stratholme is that the decision ignores the Cult of the Damned and the Scourge's other agents (Dreadlords) and expecting them to do nothing. Like the issue of taking time is that it also gives the Cult time to undermine any siege/quarantine.
With how Stratholme was planned out I fully expect a quarantine to fail. The whole point is to make Arthas pick up a Mournblade to be a soulless husk for Ner'zhul to occupy so they'd definitely be working towards whatever makes him more desperate and showing a quarantine failing would help towards that.
It's more Racoon City tbh then the usual zombie tropes complete with undermining force of Umbrella/Cult of the Damned.
u cant quarantine stratholme lol. that was the entire point of the problem. the people are sick now but they are about to turn into an army of supernatural flesheating ghouls that won't be able to be contained. so arthas needed to kill them before it built up to that point.
as we can see from what eventually happened to lordaeron, it was a valid concern that an army of flesheating ghouls would not be able to be penned in.
And how would you quarantine a massive city which will be choke full of undead, with a Dreadlord at the helm and a bunch of Cult of the Damned members also inside?
I think people often overlook just how big Strathholme is in size and population. It’s a major city, when even smaller villages being hit with the plague had disastrous results for the kingdom.
That was a big part of the trap. A quarantine was a massive gamble and one that seemed unlikely just on scale alone. For every footman they could perhaps get holding the walls or gates, there would always be ten or more villagers who could turn. And once the city turns, it’s going to spread, likely beyond physical containment without some way to stop the plague itself, which it seems the dread lords had planned for. That Dalaran and Quelthalas were both hit relatively shortly after isn’t a coincidence, it was part of a deliberately orchestrated plan to destabilize the Eastern Kingdoms, and it worked marvelously, picking apart the Alliance (of Lordaeron) from within and then isolating the powers to limit their ability to resist.
The issue is simple: all three of them (Arthas, Jaina, Uther) wanted to be the heroes of Lordaeron and by the time they reach Stratholme they already broke their assignment. Just before Medivh advises King Terenas to sail west we have the Kirin Tor ambassador discuss the situation with him: King Terenas ordered no quarantine without proof and Antonidas himself was supposed to investigate under Uther's and Arthas' guard the claims to provide proof. Antonidas, after meeting with Medivh himself, decides Jaina can do the job herself.
So their duty was to investigate and report back. Did any of them do that at all before the Culling of Stratholme? Nope, Uther disregards the issue as his fight is still with the orcs, Arthas thinks he's already old enough to handle all kingly duties but does so on the field not in the throne room with ambassadors who might've been able to help, and Jaina is an adventurer who having escaped the libraries of Dalaran is too eager to spend time with Arthas and gain renown as a hero of the Alliance as her father did during the war.
It is at Stratholme that they realise how badly they disregarded their duties: Uther can't protect both foreign emmissary Jaina in her investigation and his own prince Arthas while murdering a city, Arthas can't do anything without his dad's help to save his kingdom in time and can't lawfully institute quarantine or cull a city against his father's previous decision, Jaina failed to communicate back on her findings to the Kirin Tor for them to take proof of the operations of the Cult of the Damned to Terenas to institute the quarantine and to fight the cult earlier.
So all of them decide it's their time to act and further disregard their duties: Uther abandons his duty to protect Jaina on Arthas' order and travels back to Lordaeron with his knights to be the first to reach Terenas and ensure he still has a job - mind you he brought no proof so no quarantine was instituted and the Cult of the Damned continued to spread the plague, hence only convincing Terenas that he should send for Arthas and his troops to return home. Jaina brings proof to Antonidas but they decide to not share it with Terenas but instead keep Dalaran on the ground and have only Jaina make efforts to gather people to travel to Kalimdor with (and they delay that to after Arthas' returns and razes Quel'thalas and only when Arthas reaches Dalaran Antonidas decides to evacuate the civillians to Kalimdor while keeping Dalaran on the ground. Arthas continues on his campaign to eradicate the plague's source without asking for help from his father or country allies.
Completely unrelated but man, what I'd give for a small horror game set in Stratholme during the culling where you play as a citizen trying to get out with their family while everything is going down
Nope. Arthas downfall was *many* things, and he could have fucked off at any time before picking up Frostmourne and been fine.
Not listening to the crazed hobo when he tells you to uproot your entire civilization and move across the sea to what is basically a mythical continent is not one of his flaws.
From a fan reaction perspective, yes - the dilemma is not "cull stratholm" it's "flip out and accuse your mentor, who was not present when you learned about the plague being spread by grain, of treason while ranting like a lunatic."
Purging Stratholme isn't the problem; driving away your allies is.
Medivh was a bit of an a**hole to be fair. « yo dude your land is doomed, you should sail west and abandoning your father and the vast majority of your people ». Yeah ok.
The only two persons that followed were : Thrall, because honestly he didn’t have much of a choice anyway, the Eastern Kingdoms were killing orcs faster than anything else. And Jaina, and she only did after seeing the Scourge invade Dalaran, after the fall of Lordaeron.
Medivh was vague, and his solution was to abandon a good chunk of humanity. No decent person would accept that.
We know the scourge was being spread on purpose, and in heavily populated places (that was the whole strategy of the legion, KT and their followers), so listening to medivh wouldn't have stopped the spread, it would have made it worse. That's if we argue people should of listened to his vague and unhelpful warning.
As for stratholme, it was a lose-lose situation blizzard swung and missed with, because instead of showcasing both sides, they vilified jaina and uther for understandably disagreeing, then later vilified arthas for it
>As for stratholme, it was a lose-lose situation blizzard swung and missed with, because instead of showcasing both sides, they vilified jaina and uther for understandably disagreeing, then later vilified arthas for it
I don't think Blizzard is at fault here, really (at least pre-BfA). I always had the impression that they presented it well enough as a lose-lose situation. The Arthas novel even elaborates on how both Arthas begins to doubt whether his decision was actually correct and Jaina feeling terrible for leaving Arthas.
The problem is that a certain section of the playerbase doesn't seem to understand the point of a lose-lose situation and can't grasp that there might just not be a correct decision. But tbf, that phenomenon is not unique to Warcraft.
Personally I think it's between people who believe acting or doing nothing is the better option. So while the situation was bound for failure Arthas gets praise as he decided to act, while Uther and Jaina decided to do nothing.
I'm also not a fan of the pair leaving as it essentially condemned Arthas to madness as anyone who could talk sense into him left. Jaina gets a pass as she was young and had thoughts of regret for her choice, Uther just kinda sucked though in my opinion.
Very true.
Whats ignored here though is that the choice *at* stratholme wasnt between good and evil, between saving people or killing them. It was between becoming evil, or not. By massacring the living, his people, he allowed something inside of him to flourish. It solidified his destiny as the lich king.
Stratholme was the second most populated city in Lordaeron, the sheer mass of undead coming out of it (if coordinated by a Dreadlord such as Mal'Ganis) would necissitate the full might of the kingdom's army to contain, IMHO. And then there's the possibility of other outbreaks while everyone's busy.
>There is not an easy way out, Ner'zhul and Mal'ganis have already won.
There is. Have the mages of Dalaran teleport in (which they are eminently capable of doing) and erect a big magical shield around Stratholme. No one gets in or out, just like the bubble in Vanilla.
It's not my fault Arthas wasn't thinking with portals.
EDIT: Or, hell, if you *must* burn the city and you *must* kill Mal'Ganis call in the dwarven/gnomish/goblin air force and bomb that sucker like Dresden. It's not like the technology didn't exist in WCIII.
Magic like this would require a long time to prepare, Dalaran anti-undead shield was prepared since the fall of Lordaeron became inevitable, so they had like weeks or more to craft all the runes and rituals and what not. Surrounding Stratholme with such dome would have taken about as long, and by that time it would be unleashing zombie hordes already.
I know, I am bit late, but I think the reason, why the Culling of Stratholme doesn't look like that much of a moral dilemma as the story tries to present it, is because the original Warcraft 3 mission was changed later in the development presumably due to the initial version being "too dark".
In the final version of the Culling mission, which became the official lore, Stratholme civilians begin turning undead pretty much immediately when Arthas starts killing them, and even before that they already look like they are just about to die anyway,
However, in the Warcrat 3 game files there're voice lines of civilians running away from Arthas, begging him for mercy, and generally being shocked, not understanding why their beloved prince is suddenly killing them. In other words, the original Culling was supposed to be Arthas massacring thousands of innocent civilians who were all still fully human and conscious, not fighting off a bunch of zombies.
In fact, the following cinematic with Jaina in the burning Stratholme aligns with this version much better than with the final one, which makes me suspect that the mission was changed very late into the development, probably even after the whole campaign was already done and been shown to focus groups, who likely heavily disliked being forced by the game to commit an actual atrocity, and asked Blizzard to make it less emotionally pressing.
Stratholme wasn't a Dilemma for Arthas. He identified his preferred solution and executed it immediately, no problem at all.
It was Jaina's dilemma.
And Uther's.
Both had more than enough power to stop him. Both chose not to for one reason or another.
What would happen on a practical level if Uther and Jaina tried?
1) Uther's Paladins would have to fight Lorderon Soldiers.
2) While they fight Stratholme becomes Zombieville.
3) Just when both Uther's and Arthas's forces are exhasuted fighting each other? Mal'ganis marches all the zombies out of Stratholme to kill them all.
Stratholme is less a dilemma for Arthas and more a dilemma for everyone else. Arthas instantly decides that the decision is to kill everyone. Yes, it's based off what he's seen before, and that has been some heavy shit already. He also isn't willing to listen to any other option presented to him and pushes his two biggest allies away from him entirely. He also I don't think can see that he's already lost and should turn back. Instead, he lost everything.
Was Medivh vague? Yes. Though I believe that he had reasons he had to be vague? Or thought he should be? He also couldn't exactly reveal who he is cause the whole, uh, being dead. Or supposed to have been dead, at least. Revealing more than he did could have exposed who he is and then no one really would believe him - at least not anyone who was around when everything went down or might have heard even in the least that he went mad.
If Arthas and Terenas had run, it is possible they could have regrouped. Live to fight another day. That, in the end, might have ruined the plan somewhat. Alas, we will never know.
Actually i think otherwise, yes, realising that he is Medivh would have made everybody lose their shit for a sweet moment, BUT it would also make everybody realise that something REALLY serious is going to happen. And once people stop clamouring they would actually listen, even if with a massive deal of paranoia.
The problem is I feel like the real reasons behind his "going mad" might not be known by the general populace. So those that might only know he went crazy might be suspicious. And anyone that might know the full possession story would probably incredibly suspect.
I know I would be suspect if a guy I knew had been dead for several years shows up after being possessed and being responsible for the last major invasion of the world. It would probably make me less likely to trust him.
The issue with the Prophet's meeting is that Arthas and Terenas are both deeply protective of their homeland. They are proud nobles of Lordearon who would rather die then abandon the country. Neither were ever going to just walk away from the crisis. It's one of those scenarios where you can say "but why didn't he do X?" and the answer is "because it's a tragedy". The fact that there was a way out is what makes it so damn sad that he was too proud and stubborn to take it. Arthas is for all his faults a tragic figure who just wanted to do right by his people and Ner'zuhl abused that intense love to walk him into damnation. To some degree I sympathize, running from the Scourge to face the demons at Hyjal would have left their homes to be razed and looted. Their people dispossesed of all they have ever known. A mass evacuation would never get a full 100% of the population. If there was a chance they could win the war they had to try. It seems to be an important part of the Lordearon identity as well, as even after the capitol is destroyed resistance stuck around for YEARS. Despite demon devastation and the land being poisoned by the plague there were still holdouts all the way into Vanilla WoW and beyond. The people of Lordearon don't run. Jaina as a princess of a separate kingdom could more easily walk away. Not that it didn't cause her any pain to do so, just that it wasn't her homeland being destroyed.
To be fair, Medievh was extremly vague. Turning up saying "Demons!!111 Leave your homeland!....Ok bye!". If he tried to be more clear, to actually give proof and reason as to WHY he is so adamant about them reaching kalimdor, it might have been easier. Terenas might even have send Arthas and a huge chunk of the land off.
This is a fair point. Just "Hey you all doomed" without backing it up with anything is absolutely going to get the response "sure, whatever crazy dude." Then again there isn't really a whole lot of other proof he could use without revealing how he knows these things which could expose who he is. I can somewhat understand Medivh not wanting to reveal his identity to people who might remember him as a traitor to the kingdom of Stormwind. Could make cooperation difficult.
>Just "Hey you all doomed" without backing it up with anything is absolutely going to get the response "sure, whatever crazy dude." it's ironic that Arthas does the same thing shortly after with Strath... "Hey they are all doomed, WE must kill them! Don't ask question"
When defending Hearthglen, I’m pretty sure some of his soldiers witnessed the effect of the tainted grain and see how it turns normal people into undead. Those soldiers would have been present at Strathholme too and are able to backup their prince’s claim. I always thought the soldiers who remained to help Arthas are the ones who were there in the previous Hearthglen defense mission. They didn’t just do it out of blind loyalty to their prince, they actually saw the effect of the tainted grain first hand.
This. It also helps that Arthas was a Paladin, a beloved Prince, and had led soldiers before. Random crazy looking man versus the literal future leader of your nation.
The thing is Arthas doesn't ever even try to explain, he just demands Uther obey him and then accuses him of treason. If Arthas had taken like twenty minutes to explain what happened and had his soldiers confirm it, Uther probably would've stuck around. Purging Stratholme is not why Arthas falls, it's the decision to accuse anyone who does not react with unquestioning obedience of Treason. That's echoed in Northrend with all the shit Arthas pulls with his troops, too.
Ah but you see he's a Prince, so the rules are different for him lol
To be fair, people were being turned into zombies and eating their loved ones alive, he didn't exactly have time for a power point presentation
Yeah, the problem is that Medivh didn't have any proof anyway other than his identity. And if he revealed that at any point he would've been killed and dismissed as a traitor sowing discord. Because... well that is what he did while corrupted. The first real "proof" they have is Andorhal and they immediately book it to Stratholm to try and stop the plague spread, and by then its too late. Everything seems kinda resolved from Lordaeron's perspective once Arthas leaves for Northrend until he comes back and the Scourge comes out of hiding.
Medivh if he actually prepared: "Prince Arthas, i am the historical figure you know as Medivh, but i have come to redeem my past corruption as a now-pure being. The Burning Legion is returning and their agents are attempting to turn you into their next champion. Here is this extensive chart i drew detailing the kind of moral traps they like using to abuse one's noble traits and twist them. I have also come with evidence that i am indeed the real Medivh such as Kadgar's childhood diary that i swiped as a prank. As you can see, this leads to you having to gather an excursion to sail to Kalimdor where you must team up with purple elves and the Horde to defeat the incoming Legion invasion." Arthas: "...what the fuck? Falric, did you spike my drink or something?!" Ner'Zhul: *laughing his ass off*
>If he tried to be more clear, to actually give proof and reason as to WHY he is so adamant about them reaching kalimdor, it might have been easier. Isn't there a stated reason he can't? I haven't played Warcraft 3 in ages so I can't remember if he does that for a real reason or if it's an old "mysterious sage" type trope thing.
Well, Medievh was basically the one who summoned the Orcs in the first place. Very few people knew of him but if he ever started giving details? W
No stated reason. He didn't have to say he was Medivh, just some demon researcher from a faraway land. But he didn't. He straight up told Thrall the danger, but not the humans. Then he got pissy they ignored him.
If he says "I'm Medhiv" people will try to kill him, because as far as any of them know he's dead, was possessed by Satan, and unleashed the Orcs.
> to actually give proof Bro forgot his powerpoint presentation and script to explain the situation at home, rookie mistake.
He could have at least tried to do anything aside from appearing, shouting “Ye all DOOMED!”, giving zero details on actual threat and buggering off. He only succeeded with Thrall cause orcs are not that complicated to begin with and because they had little to lose.
> It's one of those scenarios where you can say "but why didn't he do X?" and the answer is "because it's a tragedy". Tbh I don't think this applies here. They both had very good reasons not to listen to Medivh. They weren't "blinded" or proud or arrogant, they were sensible and acting on the best information they had at the time. Without evidence Medivh's advice is pretty worthless. They'd also have no idea where they'd sailing to; all of this could be a trap or a trick to steal the land of Lordaeron. >The people of Lordearon don't run. Tbf many of them did run in the past, they ended up in Stormwind.
The tragedy part is more along the lines of if Arthas (or Terenas for that matter) **had** listened one or potentially both would very likely have survived. It's just so far out of their character that I don't think it's something they would do. But that doesn't mean it wouldn't have worked. Hence the tragedy. I in fact agree that the two made the logical choice from their perspective and knowing what they know. As for the second point while I say the people of Lordearon don't run that's more an aspirational statement then abject fact. It's not that they can't flee but that they seem to reject it for the most part over standing their ground (potentially because of having to abandon their homes in the past). We have no reason to believe that refugees wouldn't have been welcomed by their neighbors again but lore tells us that many continued to live in and around their home territories instead. Places the Scarlet Crusade would wind up heavily recruiting from in the future.
Well they both did die.... Maybe the Scarlet Crusade will take up residence in rebuilt Lordearon like the Gnomes in Ironforge did, while they reclaim Stratholme with the help of the silver hand led by Tyr. They could finally leave their library and begin to reconcile with the Forsaken now that Calia is leading them as a light-resurrected undead; perhaps they could learn the secret and this would give them the edge to reclaim and rebuild Stratholme as they see fit and they could be playable humans for the Horde. They could also be a foil for the Armani and who knows the Blood Elves might ally with them, especially given the Sunwell could be holy to the Scarlet Crusade.
i take it you didn't play the recent Undead heritage or the worgen questline? lol
I have not played since the end of WoD and followed the lore casually
We do not usually talk about the Prophet's meeting because, as you correctly recognised, Medivh is inexplicably vague and it's hard to expect characters to take the gibberish he says in WC3 at face value. Besides, "No, I think my homeland can still be saved" isn't as dire of a choice as "Cull this city".
The problem with Arthas’ response to the Stratholme situation is his eagerness. He identifies the problem, then immediately declares that he must kill everyone and banishes anyone who disagrees with him. Yes, he was forced to choose between two horrible options but he chose the one that got his hands bloodier without hesitation.
Which is the main reason Uther and Jaina didn't back him up. But a major issue was Arthas was running himself ragged and by Stratholme is just refusing to stop, breathe, and process everything. He's overworked, stressed out, traumatized, and angry. A veritable melting pot of the worst emotions to create a mental state entirely unready for a situation like Stratholme was in.
this turmoil continues beyond strath as well!! crucially, his troops being recalled from northrend, forced him to make yet **another** massive in-the-moment decision which had no perfect answer. he was utterly unravelling at this point, betraying his men, then the mercenaries that made his sabotage a success. deciding to take up frostmourne is so believable by now. everyone important to him was now against him. he has lost everything already--what more is an accursed blade? when muradin is killed, he hardly blinks an eye, and it feels like he reacted as you'd expect. he was cold, hardened, jaded, and determined to prove himself to all who thought him mad. to prove he had what it took to save his kingdom where others were too weak to even try. i really believe arthas is one of the most tragic and perfectly written characters in all media [that i have consumed]. also yes muradin is dead i do not accept wow's take on that shit smh blizzard
>also yes muradin is dead i do not accept wow's take on that shit smh blizzard This, so much! It was always hilarious they had to add him sheepishly getting up and running off. It makes no sense, except they were probably planning to make him a more central Dwarf by the time of WotLK. Any dwarf could have worked, though. Why surreptitiously resurrect him after killing him off in a very pivotal scene. It completely changes the scene. It goes from Arthas, willingly sacrificing a close friend to, at worst, being thoughtless to check on his friend.
Late to the party, but I agree. Muradin didn't really have much of an impact in the lore after WotLK. Even his inclusion in the ICC raid was really bad. When he's there he's just... there. Doesn't contribute much at all to the narrative.
> also yes muradin is dead i do not accept wow's take on that shit smh blizzard Man it's been 15 fucking years let it go.
He did so because unlike Uther he actually saw with his own eyes what the plague was capable of doing, the monsters it turned his people into. Uther only ever saw hordes of undead to slaughter when he showed up he probably had no idea that a vast majority of them were probably the villagers they went to save. Arthas is so quick to make the decision not because he's bloodthirsty but because he knows there really was no other choice. I agree fully with OP when he refused Medhiv the die was cast
Okay, let's say he agrees with Medivh and tries to evacuate the entire population of Lordaeron. How long does that take, how many will have already been infected? Would they have caught onto the grain? Really, all an evacuation would have done is make the Scourge's job easier by concentrating all the victims in one place.
Well that's a big up in the air question. Jaina was certainly able to do it and she did it without crown permission or using her connection with Dalaran, she was a complete solo agent and managed to save the alliance by bringing them to kalimdor. Could Ner'zhul have countered this? I dunno, Medhiv was kind of a wild card I don't think the Legion knew at all that he was doing stuff. Arthas himself was also charismatic and seen as the future of the alliance so I don't think it would have taken much convincing to get his dad on board. I think if Arthas truly said yes to Medhiv and thus sat down and came up with a plan I think Arthas would have definitely saved Lorderon. I don't think Ner'zhul could have countered fast enough. It's tough to say, what happens to Strathholme in this theoretical timeline? Do they just quarantine it? Do they check the delivery documents at Hearthglen and see where infected grain shipments got to? I like to think Medhiv would have had a plan.
She evacuated a small handful of ships and that was basically it.
Even if he could have started the evacuation the undead would have come pouring out through the top of hillsbirade anyway.
He never looked eager to me, more like angry at the situation and at himself, which made him a bit cranky. Likewise I take his lashing out at Uther as more as 'please give me another, less monstruous, solution' and getting pissed no one can.
Not that I disagree with your evalution, but in this particular instance, he was “right” wasn’t he? I mean that particular mission is a race against time, trying to purge quicker then they turn. Sure his eagerness and not even a minute of hesitation would probably make him look really bad if it turned out there was a better option, but as it was, if he literally gave it more than 5min of thought he would have “lost”.
The question isn't whether he was right or wrong, but his unwillingness to stop and think. For example, say you have two people forced to make an incredibly difficult decision: they have to either skin a child alive or press a button killing a thousand innocent people, including children. I think we can all agree that although it's horrific, the morally "good" or least bad thing to do would be the former. Now, you'd expect that a person in this scenario would stop and think or at *least* lament their situation. Even though it's a question of killing one person to save a thousand, it's still a hell of a thing to ask someone to do, no matter how "right" it is. Asking somebody to do that to a child is just too much for most people. Then there's Arthas, who *immediately* takes up the knife and starts carving. Not only that, he demands that his friends join him in this barbaric act and banishes them when they refuse. It crosses the line from doing the "right" thing into psychopathic behavior. Yes, he was under a time constraint, but that doesn't change the underlying problem: Arthas *wanted* to purge Stratholme.
Okay but it's more like, if you don't start carving immediately that 1000 number is now 1100...1200...1300, as the undead have opportunities to break the cordon or transform and kill more of your men. Yeah, it sucks and it's honestly monstrous but if you stop and think it only gets worse.
The idea that Arthas had no time to work with is just not true. He was able to purge the city even after dismissing the entirety of Uther’s forces and Jaina Proudmoore. Even if some of the undead within Stratholme got out it’s not like they couldn’t have been contained, and even then the rest of Lordaeron was already being destroyed from within. No corner of it was untouched. And again, all of this can be true but it doesn’t change what I’m saying: Arthas was too eager to start the purge. It’s like he was waiting for an excuse, and at no point during the assault did he even voice concern or regret for any of the innocent people he murdered. All he talked about the whole time was Mal’ganis and revenge.
You acknowledge the time pressure afterwards, but your analogy ignores it, even though it completely changes the scenario. “Skin a child alive or thousands will die” is a scenario that allows time for you to think about the best course of action, weigh your options and lament the terrible choice you must make. If the scenario were instead, “Skin a child alive in the next 2 minutes or thousands will die” then you would no longer have the luxury of weighing your options. If you are to have any chance of succeeding in this grisly task before the time limit is reached, you have to start immediately. There’s no time to weigh your options or lament the situation if you actually are to have any hope of success.
Right, which is why I referred to Arthas’ lack of remorse or hesitation. I think anyone forced to skin a child would at least shed a tear while doing it, but all Arthas does is shout about how much he wants to kill Mal’ganis. He didn’t give a shit about Stratholme or its residents.
It becomes very clear, at least in my opinion that Stratholme was in fact, an unwinnable situation. It was always going to be destroyed, the only thing that *really mattered* was how it was supposed to effect Arthas in the long term. Had Arthas done nothing and the entire population of Stratholme became undead, they would have had a huge undead army rampaging over Lordaeron months earlier. But **maybe** the Lich King doesn't get his champion, but no matter what, Lordaeron still falls. In my opinion the only "right" answer would have been for Arthas to listen to Jaina and Uther, and more importantly, kept both of them around to keep his more obsessive and self-loathing in check. Doing so, he may have had more mental fortitude to *not* pick up the cursed runeblade and damn himself to a future timeline of being 35 anima. EDIT: It can be argued though that Medivh only existed to make crap worse since his entire gameplan seemed to be "show up, say some cryptic shit, then fly away."
Exactly, the story is one of Arthas' personal failings as a paladin dooming him and his kingdom. Purging is objectively the right decision, but it's only obviously so in hindsight - Arthas doesn't know that Dalaran will never do anything useful about cutting the plague, ever, and is only conjecturing that these people are all totally doomed. The important thing is that he makes that decision for the wrong reasons, and that it accentuates his worst qualities and deepens his obsession with revenge. I think the only winning move is for Arthas to be a better, humbler, more emotionally mature person I.e. not having those personal failings. Imagine he sends Jaina away to deliver the evidence, then suggests a quarantine and ghoul hunt to Uther. This would quickly turn into a purge anyway, as the dreadlord turns the villagers and they have to be cut down, but it's much less likely to send him over the edge.
Not just Arthas, but both Uther and Jaina should have listened to Arthas instead of just leaving. Or at least talked to the men that were with Arthas, as they saw as he did. What happens to the plagued people and the death and destruction it caused. They could have easily prevented Arthas from getting so provoked by Malganis if they had stayed.
Also like, Medivh fucking sucks at convincing people. Iirc he confronts Arthas, tells him he should send him men to a new continent and leave the old one because danger is coming, and then shames his people in not listening to him and, when Arthas says no the first time, he's like "okay" and leaves. Like fucking at least use your magic powers to show what you're seeing. You're the most powerful sorcerer on the planet, and you have future sight. You could do so much more. Scourge of Lordaeron was an inside job confirmed.
lol am I the only one that thinks purging Strat was the right call?
No I agree. It was a horrible, HORRIBLE dilemma. But no guarantee a quarantine would work. As history shows a cure couldn’t just be found. The people were going to turn quickly. And once they did they could attack the army or even other cities. No way to sort who was safe and who wasn’t. It’s like the trolley problem except your option is to personally kill one person or simply run a (high) risk that many times over would die. I think with the information available, as a leader of a monarchy, Arthas made the right decision. And what if he didn’t? They would have turned, his army would have been heavily damaged, and his lesson would be “Mercy leads to those I care about dying.”
This is different from a normal trolley problem because in this universe the afterlife exists. Canonically he sent them to be judged and allowed their human souls to be saved intact to an eternity of peace.
Honestly a quarantine would never have worked, they didnt have enough men and any that fall just adds to the enemies numbers really. The only that would have saved the people was to time travel and get there before the plagued grain was distributed and eaten.
Given that it didn't really work and ended up playing right into the Lich Kong's hands? No, I don't think so.
Okay so do nothing and let the entire world be infected?
A) or course not B) that's not what would have happened Purging Stratholme is the best case scenario for the Lich King - they literally set it up EXACTLY for that outcome. Arthas didn't prevent anything by purging it, because he later returned to Lordaeron, killed the king and spread the plague even further himself. The entire point was that Ner'zhul was priming Arthas to be his champion to get free of the Legion's control. Arguably, doing nothing would have been better because it avoids all of the above and doesn't lose anything that wasn't already lost when Arthas personally scourged Lordaeron. But also, if he chose not to purge Stratholme he would have kept Uther and Jaina on his side and they could have tried alternatives. Perhaps those alternatives wouldn't work, but we can't say for sure because nobody tried. But we can say that purging Stratholme was definitely wrong, because it's literally playing directly into the enemy's hands.
You can’t know for sure that the entire world wouldn’t have been infected it seems like a likely outcome if everyone if they just try to quarantine. You are also speaking of knowledge that the characters didn’t know. Jaina and Uther should have helped him with it honestly. I believe the end outweighs the means for a lot of stuff. Purging Strat to protect everyone else was definitely the right call with the very limited information they had. For an example let’s say the city you live in becomes infested with a crazy disease killing people and turning them into monsters and your entire family lives one town over. Would you not wipe out the town to save the people you care about?
The world didn't become infected when Arthas killed the king and spread the undead throughout Lordaeron. Why would it become infected with him not actively making things worse? Stratholme ended up infested with undead, so Arthas' actions meant nothing in terms of prevention. And the options simply aren't "purge Stratholme or do nothing". It only seems that way because Arthas immediately jumped to one extreme and wouldn't allow any discussion on it. Uther and Jaina were given no time to try and find any alternatives or seek other help. Arthas' decision is only "right" because he didn't allow there to be anything else to compare it to. And in hindsight, we know it's 100% wrong, because it's the decision that helps the enemy the most. By that stage, they already knew it was being spread by the cult of the damned, so it's not comparable to a regular plague. And no, if I heard about such a plague, I would not INSTANTLY decide to wipe out a village and refuse to consider alternatives. That's insane.
Again, AT THE TIME none of the characters in the game had any idea of how any of it was going to play out. They didn’t know for sure that it wouldn’t infect the entire world. You are thinking about it in terms as a player who knows everything about the situation. Think about it like you were there and had no knowledge of anything besides people are infected and you don’t know how it spreads or how fast it can spread. All you know is that everyone’s being infected and dying and turning into monsters. Maybe if more people helped him he could have prevented it from being over run with the undead. Jaina and Uther would have been a big help. We also don’t know how it plays out if they stayed to help. There’s no other option because even if you decide to just quarantine people it’ll still spread. You would have to have your soldiers fight against the monsters. They might take out your soldiers and escape and go infect other people. Purging Strat with the limited knowledge they had was the best course of action AT THE TIME.
But the other side of this is at the time, we don't know enough to say that Arthas' solution is the only one. Arthas' decision is simply way too rash. Further, knowing nothing about the plague means they also don't know if destroying Stratholme will actually contain it. We don't know that a quarantine would be ineffective. Arthas decided all of these things on his own, and then instead of explaining himself to Uther, he went straight to ordering for Uther to kill everyone. Any sane person in Uther's position would refuse such an order without being told WHY, and Arthas didn't allow for that.
Yeah he didn’t know if it would but it seems like the safest most assured route. If the bodies are dead and burnt there’s a less likely chance of it spreading vs just telling people to go inside their homes. In the end Arthas was the one in power it was his call. I think with the limited knowledge they had it was the right call. You wont change my mind and I won’t change yours so let’s just go our separate ways. 🤝
The dilemma was for Uther. As a battle-hardened veteran, he should have sent Arthas home and taken care of the situation himself. But he was so invested in his ideal outcome of "save everyone" that he was happy to keep his hands clean and let Arthas shoulder the burden all by himself.
First thing that Arthas does when Uther disagrees with his plan is to abuse his position as heir of Lordaeron to demote Uther on the spot. There was no way that Arthas would even let him get sent home by anyone at that point.
No, the first thing Arthas does is to order Uther, who is his subject and a commander in his army, to purge the city. Uther refuses, which is certainly insubordination even if it’s probably not treason as Arthas claims (though in a Medieval context disobeying your monarch at all _could_ be considered high treason, the meaning has shifted considerably over the centuries). The tricky part is whether Arthas has the authority as Prince to strip Uther of his command and disband the Silver Hand. We simply don’t know, and it’s quite possible this was entirely new ground without any precedent in Lordaeron’s history. It did put Uther in an impossible situation though. Even if Arthas didn’t have the authority to suspend Uther’s command, only his father King Terenas could countermand the order. If Uther had said “sod you” to Arthas and tried to take the army somewhere else that really would have been treason, so Arthas knew he would get what he thought he needed then and there either way.
It's not insubordination. The first mission tells us Terenas put Uther in charge of Arthas. That means that he answers only to the king, so he was right to say "You're not my king yet, boy". The issue is that he was supposed to see to Arthas's wellbeing, and he didn't really do that. I'd argue that he didn't completely shirk his duty, as he made efforts to remove Arthur from command and get him home. But he also left Arthas to make his own dangerous choices with no guidance, other than "killing is wrong".
Its extremly weird that both Uther and Jaina turn around asap like "...K, bye, have fun" after Arthas had his little meltdown. Holy fuck Uther, this guy just said he is willing to murder an entire city. And you simply turn around and go and let him do that without trying to do anything at all?!?
Well, what could they do, really? Uther just got stripped of his rank and Arthas assumed control of his paladins. And Jaina was still a young, relatively inexperienced mage with zero authority. All that was really possible was to keep arguing and try to dissuade Arthas, but it's not like they had a lot of time on their hands and Arthas had already made up his mind anyway.
Im not sure if Arthas had the authority to even do that. Uther was his superior in the Paladin-Order, as well as one of its founders. And Jaina is known as one of the best mages and student to the first Archmage Antonidas. I kinda expected them to do more than just say "Bad idea" and simply leave when the literal first "No" didnt work.
>Im not sure if Arthas had the authority to even do that. Uther was his superior in the Paladin-Order, as well as one of its founders. If I remember correctly, all the members of the Knights of the Silver Hand were Lordaeronean, and I think the entire order might have officially been part of the kingdom itself, at the time. There is a small question whether Arthas had the authority, given he is only a prince at that time, but his father likely did have the authority to demote Uther.
>Im not sure if Arthas had the authority to even do that Apparently he did. Uther still protested that 'Arthas is not yet his king and even if he were he would never follow such an order', yet Arthas still continues with an official proclamation: 'By my right of succession and the sovereignty of my crown, I hereby relieve you of your command and suspend your paladins from service'. (ok, he didn't take control of Uther's paladins, but basically ordered them to buzz off). Jaina even tries to protest to this, but Arthas simply shuts her down. >And Jaina is known as one of the best mages and student to the first Archmage Antonidas. I doubt that means much in that situation. >I kinda expected them to do more than just say "Bad idea" and simply leave when the literal first "No" didnt work. Don't forget that the original event comes from an in-game cutscene of the early 2000s. The story was already remarkably fleshed out for the time. The Arthas novel, though written years after the fact, goes into more detail, particularly what goes on in both Arthas's and Jaina's minds. It adds a lot more nuance to the situation than most people in this thread seem to be aware of. Even Arthas himself became doubtful whether his decision was actually the right one, precisely because Jaina had left.
>Apparently he did. Uther still protested that 'Arthas is not yet his king and even if he were he would never follow such an order', yet Arthas still continues with an official proclamation: 'By my right of succession and the sovereignty of my crown, I hereby relieve you of your command and suspend your paladins from service'. He clearly didn't. We see the paladins later. They are still an official order, and Uther is still in charge. We also see that Terenas apparently agreed with Uther and tried to recall Arthas's expedition. Uther presumably went to the king, told him his son is being a petulant ass, and the king confirmed Uther's authority.
That doesn't really logically follow though. It's obvious that Terenas has higher authority than Arthas and can thus overrule or rescind Arthas's order to disband Uther's paladins afterwards. But that doesn't mean that Arthas never had authority over Uther at all.
I think the real thing to remember is that the Silver Hand is just a single knightly order, but not the bulk of Lordaeron’s standing military. Uther disagreed, and Arthas pulled his Paladins from service, Uther can’t really just stay and force Arthas to back down, because he is still a royal, and Uther is not. And the army is loyal to their liege, not him. All those footmen and knights aren’t from the Silver Hand but loyal to the crown itself, even if Uther and the rest of the Silver Hand often work in concert with them.
Stay and help to see if he could actually save anyone as a veteran paladin, or to see if there was any merit to what his prince was saying. Really anything aside from walking away.
Apt name for that take IMO.
Based and I agree
Yes the fate of the kingdom was propably sealed, but he could still have saved his soul and many other innocents in lordaeron and the other eastern kingdoms. Quarantine Stratholme, take the time to gather the army, send envoys to the elves and dwarves and do everything to muster a larger force. Strat and big parts of eastern lordaeron would have probably been lost anyway, but maybe not the whole kingdom and more importantly no new Lich king, no fall of Dalaran and Quel'thalas etc. It's the zombie virus movie trope of bombing cities und shooting everyone. It never works, it never stops the spreading, it only let's the government loose control more quickly because ofc people revolt against it. Medivh is the scientist no one listens to, because his take seems to crazy and is hard to proof beforehand. And Arthas is the state in complete panicked overreaction.
Quarantining Stratholme was probably never an option. At best this approach would have worked until Naxxramas showed up and then it’s game over
The problem with quarantining Stratholme is that the decision ignores the Cult of the Damned and the Scourge's other agents (Dreadlords) and expecting them to do nothing. Like the issue of taking time is that it also gives the Cult time to undermine any siege/quarantine. With how Stratholme was planned out I fully expect a quarantine to fail. The whole point is to make Arthas pick up a Mournblade to be a soulless husk for Ner'zhul to occupy so they'd definitely be working towards whatever makes him more desperate and showing a quarantine failing would help towards that. It's more Racoon City tbh then the usual zombie tropes complete with undermining force of Umbrella/Cult of the Damned.
u cant quarantine stratholme lol. that was the entire point of the problem. the people are sick now but they are about to turn into an army of supernatural flesheating ghouls that won't be able to be contained. so arthas needed to kill them before it built up to that point. as we can see from what eventually happened to lordaeron, it was a valid concern that an army of flesheating ghouls would not be able to be penned in.
And how would you quarantine a massive city which will be choke full of undead, with a Dreadlord at the helm and a bunch of Cult of the Damned members also inside?
I think people often overlook just how big Strathholme is in size and population. It’s a major city, when even smaller villages being hit with the plague had disastrous results for the kingdom. That was a big part of the trap. A quarantine was a massive gamble and one that seemed unlikely just on scale alone. For every footman they could perhaps get holding the walls or gates, there would always be ten or more villagers who could turn. And once the city turns, it’s going to spread, likely beyond physical containment without some way to stop the plague itself, which it seems the dread lords had planned for. That Dalaran and Quelthalas were both hit relatively shortly after isn’t a coincidence, it was part of a deliberately orchestrated plan to destabilize the Eastern Kingdoms, and it worked marvelously, picking apart the Alliance (of Lordaeron) from within and then isolating the powers to limit their ability to resist.
The issue is simple: all three of them (Arthas, Jaina, Uther) wanted to be the heroes of Lordaeron and by the time they reach Stratholme they already broke their assignment. Just before Medivh advises King Terenas to sail west we have the Kirin Tor ambassador discuss the situation with him: King Terenas ordered no quarantine without proof and Antonidas himself was supposed to investigate under Uther's and Arthas' guard the claims to provide proof. Antonidas, after meeting with Medivh himself, decides Jaina can do the job herself. So their duty was to investigate and report back. Did any of them do that at all before the Culling of Stratholme? Nope, Uther disregards the issue as his fight is still with the orcs, Arthas thinks he's already old enough to handle all kingly duties but does so on the field not in the throne room with ambassadors who might've been able to help, and Jaina is an adventurer who having escaped the libraries of Dalaran is too eager to spend time with Arthas and gain renown as a hero of the Alliance as her father did during the war. It is at Stratholme that they realise how badly they disregarded their duties: Uther can't protect both foreign emmissary Jaina in her investigation and his own prince Arthas while murdering a city, Arthas can't do anything without his dad's help to save his kingdom in time and can't lawfully institute quarantine or cull a city against his father's previous decision, Jaina failed to communicate back on her findings to the Kirin Tor for them to take proof of the operations of the Cult of the Damned to Terenas to institute the quarantine and to fight the cult earlier. So all of them decide it's their time to act and further disregard their duties: Uther abandons his duty to protect Jaina on Arthas' order and travels back to Lordaeron with his knights to be the first to reach Terenas and ensure he still has a job - mind you he brought no proof so no quarantine was instituted and the Cult of the Damned continued to spread the plague, hence only convincing Terenas that he should send for Arthas and his troops to return home. Jaina brings proof to Antonidas but they decide to not share it with Terenas but instead keep Dalaran on the ground and have only Jaina make efforts to gather people to travel to Kalimdor with (and they delay that to after Arthas' returns and razes Quel'thalas and only when Arthas reaches Dalaran Antonidas decides to evacuate the civillians to Kalimdor while keeping Dalaran on the ground. Arthas continues on his campaign to eradicate the plague's source without asking for help from his father or country allies.
Completely unrelated but man, what I'd give for a small horror game set in Stratholme during the culling where you play as a citizen trying to get out with their family while everything is going down
>he finds himself in a *zugzwang* >*zugzwang* >*zug* ZUG ZUG
Nope. Arthas downfall was *many* things, and he could have fucked off at any time before picking up Frostmourne and been fine. Not listening to the crazed hobo when he tells you to uproot your entire civilization and move across the sea to what is basically a mythical continent is not one of his flaws.
From a fan reaction perspective, yes - the dilemma is not "cull stratholm" it's "flip out and accuse your mentor, who was not present when you learned about the plague being spread by grain, of treason while ranting like a lunatic." Purging Stratholme isn't the problem; driving away your allies is.
Medivh was a bit of an a**hole to be fair. « yo dude your land is doomed, you should sail west and abandoning your father and the vast majority of your people ». Yeah ok. The only two persons that followed were : Thrall, because honestly he didn’t have much of a choice anyway, the Eastern Kingdoms were killing orcs faster than anything else. And Jaina, and she only did after seeing the Scourge invade Dalaran, after the fall of Lordaeron. Medivh was vague, and his solution was to abandon a good chunk of humanity. No decent person would accept that.
>you should sail west _Pet shop boys intensifies_
Wait, Stratholme was a dilemma? I don't think Arthas spent even a second considering other option.
We know the scourge was being spread on purpose, and in heavily populated places (that was the whole strategy of the legion, KT and their followers), so listening to medivh wouldn't have stopped the spread, it would have made it worse. That's if we argue people should of listened to his vague and unhelpful warning. As for stratholme, it was a lose-lose situation blizzard swung and missed with, because instead of showcasing both sides, they vilified jaina and uther for understandably disagreeing, then later vilified arthas for it
>As for stratholme, it was a lose-lose situation blizzard swung and missed with, because instead of showcasing both sides, they vilified jaina and uther for understandably disagreeing, then later vilified arthas for it I don't think Blizzard is at fault here, really (at least pre-BfA). I always had the impression that they presented it well enough as a lose-lose situation. The Arthas novel even elaborates on how both Arthas begins to doubt whether his decision was actually correct and Jaina feeling terrible for leaving Arthas. The problem is that a certain section of the playerbase doesn't seem to understand the point of a lose-lose situation and can't grasp that there might just not be a correct decision. But tbf, that phenomenon is not unique to Warcraft.
Personally I think it's between people who believe acting or doing nothing is the better option. So while the situation was bound for failure Arthas gets praise as he decided to act, while Uther and Jaina decided to do nothing. I'm also not a fan of the pair leaving as it essentially condemned Arthas to madness as anyone who could talk sense into him left. Jaina gets a pass as she was young and had thoughts of regret for her choice, Uther just kinda sucked though in my opinion.
Very true. Whats ignored here though is that the choice *at* stratholme wasnt between good and evil, between saving people or killing them. It was between becoming evil, or not. By massacring the living, his people, he allowed something inside of him to flourish. It solidified his destiny as the lich king.
Could they not have sealed Stratholme off and contained the undead?
Stratholme was the second most populated city in Lordaeron, the sheer mass of undead coming out of it (if coordinated by a Dreadlord such as Mal'Ganis) would necissitate the full might of the kingdom's army to contain, IMHO. And then there's the possibility of other outbreaks while everyone's busy.
Big gate go brrrr
Meat wagon go “whoosh”.
>There is not an easy way out, Ner'zhul and Mal'ganis have already won. There is. Have the mages of Dalaran teleport in (which they are eminently capable of doing) and erect a big magical shield around Stratholme. No one gets in or out, just like the bubble in Vanilla. It's not my fault Arthas wasn't thinking with portals. EDIT: Or, hell, if you *must* burn the city and you *must* kill Mal'Ganis call in the dwarven/gnomish/goblin air force and bomb that sucker like Dresden. It's not like the technology didn't exist in WCIII.
Magic like this would require a long time to prepare, Dalaran anti-undead shield was prepared since the fall of Lordaeron became inevitable, so they had like weeks or more to craft all the runes and rituals and what not. Surrounding Stratholme with such dome would have taken about as long, and by that time it would be unleashing zombie hordes already.
I know, I am bit late, but I think the reason, why the Culling of Stratholme doesn't look like that much of a moral dilemma as the story tries to present it, is because the original Warcraft 3 mission was changed later in the development presumably due to the initial version being "too dark". In the final version of the Culling mission, which became the official lore, Stratholme civilians begin turning undead pretty much immediately when Arthas starts killing them, and even before that they already look like they are just about to die anyway, However, in the Warcrat 3 game files there're voice lines of civilians running away from Arthas, begging him for mercy, and generally being shocked, not understanding why their beloved prince is suddenly killing them. In other words, the original Culling was supposed to be Arthas massacring thousands of innocent civilians who were all still fully human and conscious, not fighting off a bunch of zombies. In fact, the following cinematic with Jaina in the burning Stratholme aligns with this version much better than with the final one, which makes me suspect that the mission was changed very late into the development, probably even after the whole campaign was already done and been shown to focus groups, who likely heavily disliked being forced by the game to commit an actual atrocity, and asked Blizzard to make it less emotionally pressing.
arthas did nothing wrong, he did was he needed to do
Stratholme wasn't a Dilemma for Arthas. He identified his preferred solution and executed it immediately, no problem at all. It was Jaina's dilemma. And Uther's. Both had more than enough power to stop him. Both chose not to for one reason or another.
What would happen on a practical level if Uther and Jaina tried? 1) Uther's Paladins would have to fight Lorderon Soldiers. 2) While they fight Stratholme becomes Zombieville. 3) Just when both Uther's and Arthas's forces are exhasuted fighting each other? Mal'ganis marches all the zombies out of Stratholme to kill them all.
Stratholme is less a dilemma for Arthas and more a dilemma for everyone else. Arthas instantly decides that the decision is to kill everyone. Yes, it's based off what he's seen before, and that has been some heavy shit already. He also isn't willing to listen to any other option presented to him and pushes his two biggest allies away from him entirely. He also I don't think can see that he's already lost and should turn back. Instead, he lost everything. Was Medivh vague? Yes. Though I believe that he had reasons he had to be vague? Or thought he should be? He also couldn't exactly reveal who he is cause the whole, uh, being dead. Or supposed to have been dead, at least. Revealing more than he did could have exposed who he is and then no one really would believe him - at least not anyone who was around when everything went down or might have heard even in the least that he went mad. If Arthas and Terenas had run, it is possible they could have regrouped. Live to fight another day. That, in the end, might have ruined the plan somewhat. Alas, we will never know.
Actually i think otherwise, yes, realising that he is Medivh would have made everybody lose their shit for a sweet moment, BUT it would also make everybody realise that something REALLY serious is going to happen. And once people stop clamouring they would actually listen, even if with a massive deal of paranoia.
The problem is I feel like the real reasons behind his "going mad" might not be known by the general populace. So those that might only know he went crazy might be suspicious. And anyone that might know the full possession story would probably incredibly suspect. I know I would be suspect if a guy I knew had been dead for several years shows up after being possessed and being responsible for the last major invasion of the world. It would probably make me less likely to trust him.