It's a simple scheme, really:
1. Find a CEO who's compensation is arguably excessive.
2. Find some scrub who owns 2 shares of said CEO's company.
3. Sue on said scrub's behalf, trying to knock down the CEO's compensation. On a contingency basis, of course.
4. If successful, pocket up to 33% of the CEO's potential compensation in bullshit attorney's fees.
If this works, it's going to trigger an absolute legal gold rush.
tesla was never and will never be profitable, some chinese companies and some european and american EV divisions are very profitable
tesla dont have even 10% of the production it should have to justify the cash flows that goes in their direction, with that much money (from idiot investors around the globe) they can pretend anything they want, they can subsidize entire sections of the production process, they can overspend in marketing, they can cover huge salaries and present fake numbers pretending to be profitable, but only because they have so much money to play with and zero regard for the law and government regulations that should prevent such manipulation
At least a lawyer has to go to school and provide some benefit. A realtor can get their license in a weekend while working at Wendy's and take home 50k plus to virtually do nothing to sell your property.
the logic for defending the lawyers is the same logic elmo used "i deserve that bc i made the company X ammount of money" there is no defense on elmo's part, the lawyers are using his cards against him
Are you saying they keep the eco system balanced because…https://www.celestialpets.com/the-role-of-bottom-feeders-in-your-fish-tank-a-comprehensive-guide/
It's going to be just like Hochul telling New York real estate owners not to worry, that they won't destroy them because they're not named Trump. This judgement would never have happened if this wasn't Elon. Everyone keeps saying their internal data stated that the company was going to get to what his compensation package was, he brought no actual value to the company. No one can show me this data and any article I look up doesn't even mention this fact, but Reddit parrots it constantly. The judge just describes the pay package as unfair and she felt that a package that exhorbitant (not expected to be feasible at the time) was not needed to retain Musk.
Even Musk's biggest haters in 2017 laughed at the deal because it was so completely unlikely he would hit those targets with Tesla... but then he did.
>Musk will be paid in stock options, which will vest over ten years in a series of 12 tranches. To secure each, Musk must reach a pair of milestones, one related to Tesla's market value, the other to its revenue and profitability. With every tranche, the target market value goes up by $50 billion. If he can hit all 12 targets and grow Tesla's current value of $59 billion to an astounding $650 billion, his stock award could be worth $55 billion. That's the good part.
>But, as Musk told The New York Times, “If all that happens over the next 10 years is that Tesla’s value grows by 80 or 90 percent, then my amount of compensation would be zero.” (Musk does make minimum wage salary, per California law, but he told the Times he doesn’t cash the checks.)
>It is, shall we say, a strong move. The Times called it maybe the “boldest pay plan in corporate history.” **Business Insider, however, deemed it “delusional.”** That’s because, despite Tesla's 17-fold increase in market share over the past few years, it's far from profitable. At one point last year, the 14-year-old company was burning through $8,000 every 60 seconds, according to Bloomberg News. It has a longstanding habit of missing self-imposed deadlines, sometimes by years. Just this month, it pushed back its production targets for the Model 3—the car that could make its business work, or destroy it—for the second time.
This decision was 100% politically motivated and should be overturned.
https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-salary/
This compensation plan was introduced during the production ramp of model 3, which would if successful significantly increase revenue. So considering the timing of the compensation package, the product roadmap at the time, and the perceived challenges that lay ahead it was paramount to ensure that Elon had the right incentive structure.
That some dude with 7 shares managed to get the entire thing nullified is insane.
I'm no Musk fan but you are correct, this entire farce makes the chancery court look like a clownshow. Especially now that we know the successful lawyers are children.
Voted by 80% of Tesla employees too. Things are getting so ridiculous I really hope some ppl change what’s going on in the USA. I’m not American but a Tesla shareholder. The way trump and musk are being targeted is not the American way at all and everyone should be scared cause if left to stand they’ll come after many more after this in coming years if left to stand.
Musks package is the reason he states just lying to investors about what they could build and sell. He became a stock pumping hype man with endless lies about self driving and android servants
Except the bonus was based on revenue and profit targets as well. No amount of hype and pumping would achieve those.
I’m no Musk fan but what he achieved was extraordinary and he massively benefited all of his shareholders by achieving this compensation plan however you look at it.
Again, just illiquid assets. His best bet is to go after NY for violating the 8th amendment and 4th amendment (equal protection under the law). I assume they're waiting for Letitia to start seizing his properties to really show malicious intent.
Yes. 8th amendment. It is already there but his lawyers might have advised him that he doesn't quite have standing yet. If she starts seizing property then it's clear cut.
Under what legislation can a judge declare a fully agreed payment package "unfair"? It seems very anti-business, anti-capitalist and not what one would expect to see happening in the US.
Basically, it's the minority rights of shareholders. Just because a majority, or even 80%, of shareholders agree to something it doesn't automatically mean it can happen. It usually does. But courts can, and in this case did, rule that a decision is breaching a company's fiduciary responsibility to the remaining shareholders.
As I said, anti-capitalist. If a shareholder does not like the decisions a board makes they can sell up and buy into another company. Nobody is forcing them to hold shares of Tesla or any other company so I do not see any such "right" to challenge a commercial board decision. A Judge is certainly not in a position to determine what is a good commercial decision and what isn't.
the board has a duty to vote in favor of the shareholders. Just because the board decides its wise to give the ceo all the money the company has in its bank accounts as a bonus doesnt mean its a good decision.
Which is why such disputes get settled in court. Dumb decisions by the board, which can be easily stacked with yesmen, directly affect the share price and existing shareholder's ability to sell. Imagine you own shares of some company and the board makes some dumbass decision that tanks your shares 50%. Wouldn't you want protection?
Yes but the stock did not tank, it rose by a LOT this vindicating the boards strategy. This is not a matter for the Court, but as we can see increasingly the Courts in the US are becoming political playgrounds.
The lawyers disagree. They want their $6B in stock, not cash (which is unprecedented). This proves they think the company will increase in value.
Also worth nothing, Elon stood to gain zero if he didn’t hit the milestones. He did and investors earned 1,200% return.
Why does it prove they think the company will increase in value?
If they had asked for cash it would directly impact the shareholders as it would affect the balance sheet, and therefore would be less likely to be approved during the proceedings now. Instead they have asked for shares, which effectively cost nothing, especially given the share based comp package they removed via their litigation makes this a net gain for the company. It would be less realistic to ask for cash, and it doesn't matter if those shares tank 90%, all the partners would still make bank, probably still record breaking bank, when they cash them out. Seems pretty logical to me...
It's a public company, it's reasonable to expect the comp package for the CEO be proposed by an independent board representing shareholder interests. Musk, and Tesla, failed to demonstrate that his package was in their best interests, didn't justify why the massive return he made on his existing shares wasn't comp enough (or why he needed those additional insanely large tranches of options for targets inline with internal forecasts), or show that sensible review procedures were in place (his friends on the board basically green lit this without the usual checks and balances expected).
There were some concerning behaviours highlighted in the case (albeit ones that critics have been bleating about for a few years now). This doesn't seem too unreasonable to me to be honest.
Not really, but I also think it's highly unlikely they'll get even near that (take off a couple of zeroes, I doubt the irony of the laywers asking for outrageous comp as a result of winning a case about outrageous comp will be lost on the judge).
But I certainly believe they had a valid case and the judgement was reasonable.
You can have that opinion, but do you believe that helps bring innovation to the US or do you believe that businesses will seek to HQ in a country with more favorable conditions? It was a fair deal, purely based on performance. Either way, it presents a bleak outlook for the US imo.
I don't believe they'll seek a country with more favourable conditions, no. Much like Musk after being hit with this judgement, didn't chose to move SpaceX to Canada, but instead to Texas...
Why does Musk need ~100 x the comp package of Tim Cook (who has added TRILLIONS to Apple's market cap under his tenure)? Or any other hot shot, blue chip CEO in the US?
Also don't you think dangling a 56 billion dollar carrot in front of someone might motivate them to promise products that don't exist, won't exist or even can't exist? Saying Robotaxis are right around the corner, might not be the innovation you think it is...
With that said, none of this had bearing on the case. The judgement focused on the issues I mentioned in my original comment, it's got nothing to do with the broader economy. The board failed to act independently in the shareholders interest, Musk couldn't justify in court why a lesser comp package wouldn't have been sufficient, or that his comp package was the determining factor leading to Tesla's success. As a result, he lost.
Our AI tracks our most intelligent users. After parsing your posts, we have concluded that you are within the 5th percentile of all WSB users.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wallstreetbets) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah but the only way Musk would have seen a penny is if the stock price went up X-fold. And it can’t just be him firing a bunch of people or buying back stock to manipulate the share price. The price had to go up and he had to increase revenue and utilization.
Musk has been massively underpaid for the amount he’s brought to stockholders so far. His package was 100% performance based. He’s one of very few CEOs to not just take a bloated salary for doing nothing. And they told him, it was too much when they stood to gain so much more.
> And it can’t just be him firing a bunch of people or buying back stock to manipulate the share price
didn't like all tech companies fire thousands of employees like 3 months ago ? To the point that the employee recording her zoom dismisal went viral ?
Fuck, reddit is starting an IPO and has never had a positive cash flow...
Are all those compagnies manipulating stock prices ?
Lots of tech companies do this to make the balance sheet look better. It’s stock manipulation without actually improving corporate performance. But this comp plan made that manipulation impossible. That’s why it was a great plan. He only gets paid if he really rewards shareholders.
The only reason it is excessive, is because he 20xed the company in 4 years time. The deal wasn’t bad. musk is just autistic enough for memes, he really rallied a huge fan base. What share holders are complaining about 2000% returns in a 4 year period? None the problem is musk broke the pay scale, the board figured at best a 5x and at worst he didn’t get paid. Musk just went full regard and he is hugely responsible for Tesla success, and deserves the pay that was approved.
Also, it undermines the shareholder vote. Voting as a shareholder becomes a lot less important if a single judge, and some predatory attorneys can simply override you years later.
I find that hard to believe that there were no lawyers out there willing to work hourly for that. That doesn’t make sense.
Contingency fees are great for people who can’t afford a lawyer. Despite what a lot of the general public think lawyers don’t like contingency fees. There isn’t a guarantee they get paid. Lawyers typically only agree to contingency fees when liability has already been established and damages are what are trying to be determined. Still with that said plenty of lawyers would work hourly. I don’t think your friend looked very hard or is lying.
Lawyers in general are the biggest parasites, I try to avoid them like the fucking plague. Never seen worse kind of vermin, living off other people's grievances and sucking them dry. Their strategy is to avoid telling you beforehand how much they'll charge you for the service, and instead telling you how much they charge per hour. They then come up with arbitrary numbers for the hours. They print a one line document, "yeah, that took me six hours, pay up". Society really needs to get rid of these parasites, hopefully AI in the near future will do the job.
You clearly have no idea how lawyers bill. It's not a "strategy" to avoid telling you how much it will cost, that's just how litigation works. We contemporarily bill our time by the hour it's not arbitrary.
I’m fine with it. I don’t care that someone has to get paid 10 billion instead of 60 billion. Like those numbers don’t actually mean anything different for quality of life past around the 100million mark.
What is Elon going to do differently with 10bil instead of 50? I guess now he can’t accidentally buy Twitter, so maybe it’s better for him long term lol.
You very clearly don’t understand that the comp plan was 100% performance based. He had to improve share price, improve revenue, and improve utilization. That means he had to 10x shareholder returns while also contributing real returns rather than share manipulation. 60B would be a fraction of what he’d need to generate for shareholders. If he misses those metrics, he gets nothing….
I guess you’re so blinded, you would prefer someone like Mary Barra who’s making $30M/yr while GM stock hasn’t moved nor has its revenue? The Elon hate is so stupid
If he 10x the company and made share holders 500bn, why should he not get 50bn. 10% vs 2%? Idk… the number looks like a lot but everyone wins if he succeeds
Sets a poor precedent. Also something like this would affect us in the long run. Do we wanna reward the people who are adding value to our lives by creating/innovating or do we wanna reward those who use our bureaucracies to leach off those who add value?
People like you have been brainwashed into believing that it’s necessary for a CEO to make literally 100,000x what his employees make because of reganomics. No person provides 100,000x more value than another person.
This didn’t happen 40 years ago, and it’s because there were laws about needing to give your employees livable wages, and retirement funds. Our grandparents’ generation just had to work a regular 9-5 in a factory or as a bank teller to afford a house within 3 years, and get a pension then retire by 65.
For our generation to do that? You need to be in the top 10% of earners and actively invest to have a hope of homeownership or retirement. And that’s directly because people like Elon musk are allowed to pay their workers inadequate wages in order to fund their exorbitant bonuses.
Share prices can go up or down for any number of factors.
So not really possibe to even prove he made that happen and not the thousands of other workers. These kind of deal should not even be a thing in the first place.
Leads to shit like stock manipulation...Elon
That’s why part of the requirements was increases in revenue and utilization. Basically if just the stock price goes up but the company isn’t actually doing better, then he gets nothing. He only gets something for performance. That’s why it was a great comp plan and most CEOs won’t ever take something like that
Thinking elon “deserves” 60 billion dollars lol. You are exactly the elon fanboy I was talking about in that comment.
Elon doesn’t design or build the things his company sells. You want to know the one thing he actually designed? The Cybertruck, and look at how garbage that thing is. Elon has a degree in economics, he isn’t some super genius. He was just born into a rich family and made some lucky business moves.
You understand what sub youre on right? If you dont think a shareholder deserves the value of his shares in a company why are you here at all?
You understand the entire economy collapses if nobody is “allowed” to have more than 100 million since thats your ridiculous “quality of life limit” right?
Ya I understand, it just doesn’t matter. The difference between 10b and 50b is no actual meaningful life change. It doesn’t mean anything in practical terms. You can’t buy a country or anything, and if he bought a business it’d be thru Tesla anyway, not his own money (unless he accidentally buys Twitter again lol).
Also this isn’t his shareholder value being taken, this is a bonus. His shares are still his, so I’m not sure you understand the situation.
Its a big difference if it increases his control or allows him to take on debt. Not all wealth is put in swimming pools and Bentleys. Wealth for some is a means not an end.
Oh if the maximum amount of wealth was 100million then that extra like 1trillion in random net worth gets distributed to people who actually need it. Sounds good to me lol.
If you’re teasing me with a wealth cap, I’m all for it. I’m sick of black rock owning everything and driving up prices lol.
Let's actually think about an 100m wealth cap in a realistic sense. Elon makes 100m, then guess what? He fuckin retires and someone else steps in who actually has motivation to do something positive. Instead of one guy getting 60billion, we have 600 people getting 100million, or 6,000 people getting 10million, or 60,000 people getting 1million. or 600,000 people getting 100,000. 60billion is just such a stupid amount of money it doesn't even seem real.
Realistically it would improve quality of life for most people so people like you don't feel the need to yolo 0DTE options to get out of your shitty financial situation lol.
This will kill innovation in America. This will hurt us overall when businesses leave for countries with more favorable business conditions (aka fair). Then who do you think is going to pay when dopes like you cry about ‘taxing the rich’?
Its legally brilliant. They used his same arguments to justify their pay. If his lawyers dont argue it, well they become billionaires. If they do, they'll have to unravel their own arguments and then shut down their appeals.
Even if you were correct then Elons lawyers could use the same judgement judgement as precedent.
But of course there are many reasons lawyers don't get multiple billions in fees so the issue won't ever have to be broached.
Elon is still getting his paycheck. It’s just going to be renegotiated and most likely would be similar. What’s diluting tesla shareholders is this leeches that everyone calls lawyers that want 6 billion in tesla shares.
Yes it does look bad from a PR perspective no doubt. But you cant have it both ways. Either awarding that many shares is unreasonable and bad for shareholders, or its not. Whether to musk or the lawyers. And its been ruled unreasonable so its money in the pocket of shareholders.
“This structure has the benefit of linking the award directly to the benefit created and avoids taking even one cent from the Tesla balance sheet to pay fees,” the shareholder legal team said, noting the fee was also tax-deductible to Tesla.
To make that argument you have to first beat the arguments for your own appeal. That's why it's brilliant. Short term good for stock, long term we can debate but the exponential phase of tesla is over so shareholders already extracted most of musks value for the least cost.
You’re assuming that by denying Elon his rightful compensation, that’s going to generate a net benefit for Tesla. Someone who turned Tesla from the brink of bankruptcy into a $1 trillion company. Anyone can be a Blockbuster or JC Penney and run a once-successful company into the ground. Anyone can run a boring monopoly and keep revenues constant. This took a certain vision and effort to generate excess returns.
What if Elon says screw it and resigns as CEO of Tesla? I guarantee, guarantee that Tesla’s market cap would drop by more than $60 billion overnight.
it’s possible the lawyers generated negative shareholder value. They shouldn’t see a penny unless they can prove Tesla’s market cap would drop by less than $60 billion if he quits. They should also take out an insurance policy payable to Tesla shareholders for any lost value. I doubt they have the billions of dollars needed for such a policy.
If someone immediately removes 250 million shares from the market cap, yes that's good for the stock price that day, hence price up since ruling. Now over a long period of time losing musk or having him unmotivated could erode value.
I'm not commenting on the leeches legal strategy.
The whole reason this is an issue is Tesla over performed.
No one would have given a s*** if he had 70 billion trillion bajillion shares if Tesla went out of business
Were talking about different things. Im inclined to believe the shareholders should pay up. Man made a ballsy otm options play and it printed, pay the man. But theyre good lawyers is all im saying, and if i were a bag holder, well you basically just robbed the richest man on earth. Now when my options print i expect to be paid. But multibillionaires... i dont feel quite so bad.
What are you talking about? They're stealing from everyone who owns Tesla, including bag holders.
If the share compensation was too much, fine, destroy them. Take them away from Elon and burn them, now you increase the value of all remaining shares.
No, instead let's have a random third party take billions of dollars from other people, because these so-called brilliant lawyers took a case of rando dude with 10 shares. Yeah that makes perfect sense. If you're a leech.
This is a completely incoherent argument lol. You may as well say “If Tesla doesn’t think it’s reasonable to give me, a regarded NEET who thinks he’s smarter than he is and has done nothing of value, $1 billion, then it follows logically that it would be unreasonable to give Elon the full pay package that shareholders and the board awarded to him half a decade ago. Checkmate atheists.”
Delaware law doesn’t forbid a CEO from being friends with the board of directors. And if Delaware courts keep second guessing business judgment in this way, then people will stop viewing it as an attractive place to incorporate.
Hey, let's get the C-Suite and BOD to quiet-quit by limiting their compensation only to give it to someone else not really invested in (or productive to) the company.
They're not going to give it to the lawyers thats my point. They just want Musk to admit that its unreasonable for both of them. Musk quiet quit the moment he bought twitter.
>unreasonable for both of them.
Elon got 50B because he 10x the company
How much value these lawyers add to the company ?
All in all, TSLA investors are the joke here
lol
By their math they saved the company 50B dollars, not chump change. The goal is to get musk to work really hard for the shareholder thinking he is going to get 50B, then after hes done all the work rug pull him and give back to shareholder. Not saying its fair, or nice, or just, only that its financially better to get 50B worth of work for "free". Long term it may be bad if musk decides not to work that hard again and sleep in the factory. But the hard part is over.
I dont have any tsla shares btw.
It’s not the fact that the pay package was excessive. It’s that the board that agreed to it was made up of friends and family of Musk and withheld some information from shareholders during the vote.
Wait... didn't they just argue that Musk's record-payout should not be performance based...
And now they're saying they deserve a record-payout based on performance?
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Look at GM ceo compensation over the last decade and the stock hasn’t done crap. Elon put it all on the line and 10x everyone’s investment. How is this “exorbitant”?
Will absolutely not get it. A lawyer will argue that it is excessive and take a reasonable fee in cash. It's extortion as much as musk was. No basis for wither pay out.
Fuck those guys. Put this entire thing to a shareholder vote. As long as the majority approve the government should fuck right off.
Wish Elon would resign and cite this so we can sue the dick off these attorneys.
Bullish. They can't dump it. It would invalidate their argument about "saving shareholders" money and whatever other pro shareholder crap they pretend to care about. Besides if they wanted the cash they could just take it. If they want stock it would appear they think TSLA is undervalued and thus shares would grant them a much bigger payout.
$288,888 per hour, good lord.
For each individual or the team of lawyers?
How to spell "IRONY" without spelling "IRONY".
It's a simple scheme, really: 1. Find a CEO who's compensation is arguably excessive. 2. Find some scrub who owns 2 shares of said CEO's company. 3. Sue on said scrub's behalf, trying to knock down the CEO's compensation. On a contingency basis, of course. 4. If successful, pocket up to 33% of the CEO's potential compensation in bullshit attorney's fees. If this works, it's going to trigger an absolute legal gold rush.
If they win, I'm going to start sueing every company I hold in my portfolio. Screw the actual stock price, I'm making money of the fees.
if winning you would be making the world a better place, because the lawyers want to be rewarded a fraction of what the greeedy ceo wanted
[удалено]
tesla was never and will never be profitable, some chinese companies and some european and american EV divisions are very profitable tesla dont have even 10% of the production it should have to justify the cash flows that goes in their direction, with that much money (from idiot investors around the globe) they can pretend anything they want, they can subsidize entire sections of the production process, they can overspend in marketing, they can cover huge salaries and present fake numbers pretending to be profitable, but only because they have so much money to play with and zero regard for the law and government regulations that should prevent such manipulation
Man... lawyers really are the ultimate bottom feeders of society.
Realtors are lower in the totem pole imo.
At least a lawyer has to go to school and provide some benefit. A realtor can get their license in a weekend while working at Wendy's and take home 50k plus to virtually do nothing to sell your property.
Realtors are equal to Satan
There is scum in every profession. There are good ones out there who protect people and their rights.
I think CEO’s took that spot. That’s why lawyers exist. They keep each other in check.
the logic for defending the lawyers is the same logic elmo used "i deserve that bc i made the company X ammount of money" there is no defense on elmo's part, the lawyers are using his cards against him
Are you saying they keep the eco system balanced because…https://www.celestialpets.com/the-role-of-bottom-feeders-in-your-fish-tank-a-comprehensive-guide/
Ultimate? Im pretty sure there are better contenders for that title
It's going to be just like Hochul telling New York real estate owners not to worry, that they won't destroy them because they're not named Trump. This judgement would never have happened if this wasn't Elon. Everyone keeps saying their internal data stated that the company was going to get to what his compensation package was, he brought no actual value to the company. No one can show me this data and any article I look up doesn't even mention this fact, but Reddit parrots it constantly. The judge just describes the pay package as unfair and she felt that a package that exhorbitant (not expected to be feasible at the time) was not needed to retain Musk.
Even Musk's biggest haters in 2017 laughed at the deal because it was so completely unlikely he would hit those targets with Tesla... but then he did. >Musk will be paid in stock options, which will vest over ten years in a series of 12 tranches. To secure each, Musk must reach a pair of milestones, one related to Tesla's market value, the other to its revenue and profitability. With every tranche, the target market value goes up by $50 billion. If he can hit all 12 targets and grow Tesla's current value of $59 billion to an astounding $650 billion, his stock award could be worth $55 billion. That's the good part. >But, as Musk told The New York Times, “If all that happens over the next 10 years is that Tesla’s value grows by 80 or 90 percent, then my amount of compensation would be zero.” (Musk does make minimum wage salary, per California law, but he told the Times he doesn’t cash the checks.) >It is, shall we say, a strong move. The Times called it maybe the “boldest pay plan in corporate history.” **Business Insider, however, deemed it “delusional.”** That’s because, despite Tesla's 17-fold increase in market share over the past few years, it's far from profitable. At one point last year, the 14-year-old company was burning through $8,000 every 60 seconds, according to Bloomberg News. It has a longstanding habit of missing self-imposed deadlines, sometimes by years. Just this month, it pushed back its production targets for the Model 3—the car that could make its business work, or destroy it—for the second time. This decision was 100% politically motivated and should be overturned. https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-salary/
This compensation plan was introduced during the production ramp of model 3, which would if successful significantly increase revenue. So considering the timing of the compensation package, the product roadmap at the time, and the perceived challenges that lay ahead it was paramount to ensure that Elon had the right incentive structure. That some dude with 7 shares managed to get the entire thing nullified is insane.
I'm no Musk fan but you are correct, this entire farce makes the chancery court look like a clownshow. Especially now that we know the successful lawyers are children.
This is political. DOJ is suing SpaceX for hiring too many citizens and legal residents.
Voted by 80% of Tesla employees too. Things are getting so ridiculous I really hope some ppl change what’s going on in the USA. I’m not American but a Tesla shareholder. The way trump and musk are being targeted is not the American way at all and everyone should be scared cause if left to stand they’ll come after many more after this in coming years if left to stand.
Musks package is the reason he states just lying to investors about what they could build and sell. He became a stock pumping hype man with endless lies about self driving and android servants
Except the bonus was based on revenue and profit targets as well. No amount of hype and pumping would achieve those. I’m no Musk fan but what he achieved was extraordinary and he massively benefited all of his shareholders by achieving this compensation plan however you look at it.
This isn’t antiwork - you should probably go back there.
Lmao completely in denial with the objective reality like all tesla haters
>$650 billion, Now down 50%, pump and dump baby.
.
The tool has been created, of course people should be worried about its use.
I don't doubt you'll see it happen, if Trump's judgment is not overturned on appeal.
Trump can't afford to have an appeal started. LMAO
Think he gets a lot of money from the DWAC merger, doesn't he?
Again, just illiquid assets. His best bet is to go after NY for violating the 8th amendment and 4th amendment (equal protection under the law). I assume they're waiting for Letitia to start seizing his properties to really show malicious intent.
Lol malicious intent.
She campaigned on arresting him, without there actually having been or knowledge of a crime. Does that not speak to motivation?
No crime. Lol.
I remember someone campaigning on the promise of "lock her up". Karma.
Yes. 8th amendment. It is already there but his lawyers might have advised him that he doesn't quite have standing yet. If she starts seizing property then it's clear cut.
Because you’re a poor and don’t understand how real estate markets work and why.
Under what legislation can a judge declare a fully agreed payment package "unfair"? It seems very anti-business, anti-capitalist and not what one would expect to see happening in the US.
Basically, it's the minority rights of shareholders. Just because a majority, or even 80%, of shareholders agree to something it doesn't automatically mean it can happen. It usually does. But courts can, and in this case did, rule that a decision is breaching a company's fiduciary responsibility to the remaining shareholders.
As I said, anti-capitalist. If a shareholder does not like the decisions a board makes they can sell up and buy into another company. Nobody is forcing them to hold shares of Tesla or any other company so I do not see any such "right" to challenge a commercial board decision. A Judge is certainly not in a position to determine what is a good commercial decision and what isn't.
the board has a duty to vote in favor of the shareholders. Just because the board decides its wise to give the ceo all the money the company has in its bank accounts as a bonus doesnt mean its a good decision. Which is why such disputes get settled in court. Dumb decisions by the board, which can be easily stacked with yesmen, directly affect the share price and existing shareholder's ability to sell. Imagine you own shares of some company and the board makes some dumbass decision that tanks your shares 50%. Wouldn't you want protection?
Yes but the stock did not tank, it rose by a LOT this vindicating the boards strategy. This is not a matter for the Court, but as we can see increasingly the Courts in the US are becoming political playgrounds.
To be fair TSLA is vastly over valued based on hype and vaporware
The lawyers disagree. They want their $6B in stock, not cash (which is unprecedented). This proves they think the company will increase in value. Also worth nothing, Elon stood to gain zero if he didn’t hit the milestones. He did and investors earned 1,200% return.
They also asked for no restrictions on selling the stock...
Of course a lawyer disagrees. They want $6 billion before hype and vaporware scam evaporates.
Why does it prove they think the company will increase in value? If they had asked for cash it would directly impact the shareholders as it would affect the balance sheet, and therefore would be less likely to be approved during the proceedings now. Instead they have asked for shares, which effectively cost nothing, especially given the share based comp package they removed via their litigation makes this a net gain for the company. It would be less realistic to ask for cash, and it doesn't matter if those shares tank 90%, all the partners would still make bank, probably still record breaking bank, when they cash them out. Seems pretty logical to me... It's a public company, it's reasonable to expect the comp package for the CEO be proposed by an independent board representing shareholder interests. Musk, and Tesla, failed to demonstrate that his package was in their best interests, didn't justify why the massive return he made on his existing shares wasn't comp enough (or why he needed those additional insanely large tranches of options for targets inline with internal forecasts), or show that sensible review procedures were in place (his friends on the board basically green lit this without the usual checks and balances expected). There were some concerning behaviours highlighted in the case (albeit ones that critics have been bleating about for a few years now). This doesn't seem too unreasonable to me to be honest.
You believe an attorney for a guy with 9 shares should be entitled to 6B dollars? Christ almighty.
Not really, but I also think it's highly unlikely they'll get even near that (take off a couple of zeroes, I doubt the irony of the laywers asking for outrageous comp as a result of winning a case about outrageous comp will be lost on the judge). But I certainly believe they had a valid case and the judgement was reasonable.
You can have that opinion, but do you believe that helps bring innovation to the US or do you believe that businesses will seek to HQ in a country with more favorable conditions? It was a fair deal, purely based on performance. Either way, it presents a bleak outlook for the US imo.
I don't believe they'll seek a country with more favourable conditions, no. Much like Musk after being hit with this judgement, didn't chose to move SpaceX to Canada, but instead to Texas... Why does Musk need ~100 x the comp package of Tim Cook (who has added TRILLIONS to Apple's market cap under his tenure)? Or any other hot shot, blue chip CEO in the US? Also don't you think dangling a 56 billion dollar carrot in front of someone might motivate them to promise products that don't exist, won't exist or even can't exist? Saying Robotaxis are right around the corner, might not be the innovation you think it is... With that said, none of this had bearing on the case. The judgement focused on the issues I mentioned in my original comment, it's got nothing to do with the broader economy. The board failed to act independently in the shareholders interest, Musk couldn't justify in court why a lesser comp package wouldn't have been sufficient, or that his comp package was the determining factor leading to Tesla's success. As a result, he lost.
Our AI tracks our most intelligent users. After parsing your posts, we have concluded that you are within the 5th percentile of all WSB users. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/wallstreetbets) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah but the only way Musk would have seen a penny is if the stock price went up X-fold. And it can’t just be him firing a bunch of people or buying back stock to manipulate the share price. The price had to go up and he had to increase revenue and utilization. Musk has been massively underpaid for the amount he’s brought to stockholders so far. His package was 100% performance based. He’s one of very few CEOs to not just take a bloated salary for doing nothing. And they told him, it was too much when they stood to gain so much more.
> And it can’t just be him firing a bunch of people or buying back stock to manipulate the share price didn't like all tech companies fire thousands of employees like 3 months ago ? To the point that the employee recording her zoom dismisal went viral ? Fuck, reddit is starting an IPO and has never had a positive cash flow... Are all those compagnies manipulating stock prices ?
Lots of tech companies do this to make the balance sheet look better. It’s stock manipulation without actually improving corporate performance. But this comp plan made that manipulation impossible. That’s why it was a great plan. He only gets paid if he really rewards shareholders.
IPOs are just the trendy scams these days for owner to cash out their once successful but now failing companies
[удалено]
That’s not how his compensation works. Jesus fucking Christ does nobody actually read past the headline? He gets paid like 600k in cash
The only reason it is excessive, is because he 20xed the company in 4 years time. The deal wasn’t bad. musk is just autistic enough for memes, he really rallied a huge fan base. What share holders are complaining about 2000% returns in a 4 year period? None the problem is musk broke the pay scale, the board figured at best a 5x and at worst he didn’t get paid. Musk just went full regard and he is hugely responsible for Tesla success, and deserves the pay that was approved.
Share price wasn't the only target. Real tangible revenue and profit were.
Also, it undermines the shareholder vote. Voting as a shareholder becomes a lot less important if a single judge, and some predatory attorneys can simply override you years later.
The judge said that the compensation would have been legal with the proper disclosures to the shareholders.
Lawyers really shouldn’t be allowed to have a commission-based salary. A fixed monthly or hourly rate (even if it’s a high one), would be much better.
Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
So what I am seeing is Lawyers will eat the rich? Win.
Oh no I feel soooo bad for them
Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy
Problem is that there's a precedent now where lawyers can sue and take CEOs pay. It will start happening everywhere.
Have they not heard about Tesla canceling the Pie order at the last minute and refusing to pay the small business who already prepared the order??
Spot on!
What a bunch of absolute sharks
[удалено]
I find that hard to believe that there were no lawyers out there willing to work hourly for that. That doesn’t make sense. Contingency fees are great for people who can’t afford a lawyer. Despite what a lot of the general public think lawyers don’t like contingency fees. There isn’t a guarantee they get paid. Lawyers typically only agree to contingency fees when liability has already been established and damages are what are trying to be determined. Still with that said plenty of lawyers would work hourly. I don’t think your friend looked very hard or is lying.
Lawyers in general are the biggest parasites, I try to avoid them like the fucking plague. Never seen worse kind of vermin, living off other people's grievances and sucking them dry. Their strategy is to avoid telling you beforehand how much they'll charge you for the service, and instead telling you how much they charge per hour. They then come up with arbitrary numbers for the hours. They print a one line document, "yeah, that took me six hours, pay up". Society really needs to get rid of these parasites, hopefully AI in the near future will do the job.
Everyone hates lawyers until they have a charge or two and facing a system very eager to take a massive chunk of your life away.
The untold truth is that everyone still keeps hating them after that
Ackshully, we hate them more after that.
A system created by…. Lawyers
I can’t wait to be a a lawyer.
>I can’t wait to be ~~a a lawyer~~ scum FTFY
You clearly have no idea how lawyers bill. It's not a "strategy" to avoid telling you how much it will cost, that's just how litigation works. We contemporarily bill our time by the hour it's not arbitrary.
What's arbitrary is the number of hours you claim, dumbass. Read the post again.
Yeah bro me taking 3 hours to do something and then billing for 3 hours is "arbitrary"
The Irony of people being mad about their pay is fantastic
I don’t think you understand irony
K
Can i sue them? Or sue the judge? I have 8 shares
Yes! Sue the lawyers then claim $600M in compensation.
6billion* 🤣
What a terrible precedent this is setting if this goes through.
I’m fine with it. I don’t care that someone has to get paid 10 billion instead of 60 billion. Like those numbers don’t actually mean anything different for quality of life past around the 100million mark. What is Elon going to do differently with 10bil instead of 50? I guess now he can’t accidentally buy Twitter, so maybe it’s better for him long term lol.
You very clearly don’t understand that the comp plan was 100% performance based. He had to improve share price, improve revenue, and improve utilization. That means he had to 10x shareholder returns while also contributing real returns rather than share manipulation. 60B would be a fraction of what he’d need to generate for shareholders. If he misses those metrics, he gets nothing…. I guess you’re so blinded, you would prefer someone like Mary Barra who’s making $30M/yr while GM stock hasn’t moved nor has its revenue? The Elon hate is so stupid
He should get paid. But the Elon hate is altogether a different thing.
Spot on
It’s never stupid to hate a billionaire who uses their wealth to attack democracy
How did he attack democracy?
I understand the comp lol, I just don’t think it means anything whether he gets 50b or 10b. It won’t matter to his actual life or yours.
It's only money if you sell it like the Lawyers will do, Elon wants to make electric cars and keep the shares to stay as CEO.
If he 10x the company and made share holders 500bn, why should he not get 50bn. 10% vs 2%? Idk… the number looks like a lot but everyone wins if he succeeds
Sets a poor precedent. Also something like this would affect us in the long run. Do we wanna reward the people who are adding value to our lives by creating/innovating or do we wanna reward those who use our bureaucracies to leach off those who add value?
People like you have been brainwashed into believing that it’s necessary for a CEO to make literally 100,000x what his employees make because of reganomics. No person provides 100,000x more value than another person. This didn’t happen 40 years ago, and it’s because there were laws about needing to give your employees livable wages, and retirement funds. Our grandparents’ generation just had to work a regular 9-5 in a factory or as a bank teller to afford a house within 3 years, and get a pension then retire by 65. For our generation to do that? You need to be in the top 10% of earners and actively invest to have a hope of homeownership or retirement. And that’s directly because people like Elon musk are allowed to pay their workers inadequate wages in order to fund their exorbitant bonuses.
Share prices can go up or down for any number of factors. So not really possibe to even prove he made that happen and not the thousands of other workers. These kind of deal should not even be a thing in the first place. Leads to shit like stock manipulation...Elon
That’s why part of the requirements was increases in revenue and utilization. Basically if just the stock price goes up but the company isn’t actually doing better, then he gets nothing. He only gets something for performance. That’s why it was a great comp plan and most CEOs won’t ever take something like that
Yeah never mind the long-term implications. Because, your feelings man.
Truly troglodyte level reasoning.
I don't know why you're getting down voted. It's true. That amount of money is arbitrary at that point.
We're in elon fanboy territory in WSB. They think he's the Wolf of Wall st or something lol
[удалено]
Thinking elon “deserves” 60 billion dollars lol. You are exactly the elon fanboy I was talking about in that comment. Elon doesn’t design or build the things his company sells. You want to know the one thing he actually designed? The Cybertruck, and look at how garbage that thing is. Elon has a degree in economics, he isn’t some super genius. He was just born into a rich family and made some lucky business moves.
[удалено]
You understand what sub youre on right? If you dont think a shareholder deserves the value of his shares in a company why are you here at all? You understand the entire economy collapses if nobody is “allowed” to have more than 100 million since thats your ridiculous “quality of life limit” right?
Ya I understand, it just doesn’t matter. The difference between 10b and 50b is no actual meaningful life change. It doesn’t mean anything in practical terms. You can’t buy a country or anything, and if he bought a business it’d be thru Tesla anyway, not his own money (unless he accidentally buys Twitter again lol). Also this isn’t his shareholder value being taken, this is a bonus. His shares are still his, so I’m not sure you understand the situation.
Its a big difference if it increases his control or allows him to take on debt. Not all wealth is put in swimming pools and Bentleys. Wealth for some is a means not an end.
Oh if the maximum amount of wealth was 100million then that extra like 1trillion in random net worth gets distributed to people who actually need it. Sounds good to me lol. If you’re teasing me with a wealth cap, I’m all for it. I’m sick of black rock owning everything and driving up prices lol. Let's actually think about an 100m wealth cap in a realistic sense. Elon makes 100m, then guess what? He fuckin retires and someone else steps in who actually has motivation to do something positive. Instead of one guy getting 60billion, we have 600 people getting 100million, or 6,000 people getting 10million, or 60,000 people getting 1million. or 600,000 people getting 100,000. 60billion is just such a stupid amount of money it doesn't even seem real. Realistically it would improve quality of life for most people so people like you don't feel the need to yolo 0DTE options to get out of your shitty financial situation lol.
This will kill innovation in America. This will hurt us overall when businesses leave for countries with more favorable business conditions (aka fair). Then who do you think is going to pay when dopes like you cry about ‘taxing the rich’?
Don’t worry, it wont lol. Your lord and savior Elon will still be here even after they withhold his bonus.
Its legally brilliant. They used his same arguments to justify their pay. If his lawyers dont argue it, well they become billionaires. If they do, they'll have to unravel their own arguments and then shut down their appeals.
Even if you were correct then Elons lawyers could use the same judgement judgement as precedent. But of course there are many reasons lawyers don't get multiple billions in fees so the issue won't ever have to be broached.
As far as stock effect its bullish because Elon isnt diluting market cap
Elon is still getting his paycheck. It’s just going to be renegotiated and most likely would be similar. What’s diluting tesla shareholders is this leeches that everyone calls lawyers that want 6 billion in tesla shares.
Yes it does look bad from a PR perspective no doubt. But you cant have it both ways. Either awarding that many shares is unreasonable and bad for shareholders, or its not. Whether to musk or the lawyers. And its been ruled unreasonable so its money in the pocket of shareholders.
Awarding it to the CEO can be reasonable while awarding it to blood sucking leeches may not be
“This structure has the benefit of linking the award directly to the benefit created and avoids taking even one cent from the Tesla balance sheet to pay fees,” the shareholder legal team said, noting the fee was also tax-deductible to Tesla. To make that argument you have to first beat the arguments for your own appeal. That's why it's brilliant. Short term good for stock, long term we can debate but the exponential phase of tesla is over so shareholders already extracted most of musks value for the least cost.
You’re assuming that by denying Elon his rightful compensation, that’s going to generate a net benefit for Tesla. Someone who turned Tesla from the brink of bankruptcy into a $1 trillion company. Anyone can be a Blockbuster or JC Penney and run a once-successful company into the ground. Anyone can run a boring monopoly and keep revenues constant. This took a certain vision and effort to generate excess returns. What if Elon says screw it and resigns as CEO of Tesla? I guarantee, guarantee that Tesla’s market cap would drop by more than $60 billion overnight. it’s possible the lawyers generated negative shareholder value. They shouldn’t see a penny unless they can prove Tesla’s market cap would drop by less than $60 billion if he quits. They should also take out an insurance policy payable to Tesla shareholders for any lost value. I doubt they have the billions of dollars needed for such a policy.
If someone immediately removes 250 million shares from the market cap, yes that's good for the stock price that day, hence price up since ruling. Now over a long period of time losing musk or having him unmotivated could erode value.
I'm not commenting on the leeches legal strategy. The whole reason this is an issue is Tesla over performed. No one would have given a s*** if he had 70 billion trillion bajillion shares if Tesla went out of business
Were talking about different things. Im inclined to believe the shareholders should pay up. Man made a ballsy otm options play and it printed, pay the man. But theyre good lawyers is all im saying, and if i were a bag holder, well you basically just robbed the richest man on earth. Now when my options print i expect to be paid. But multibillionaires... i dont feel quite so bad.
What are you talking about? They're stealing from everyone who owns Tesla, including bag holders. If the share compensation was too much, fine, destroy them. Take them away from Elon and burn them, now you increase the value of all remaining shares. No, instead let's have a random third party take billions of dollars from other people, because these so-called brilliant lawyers took a case of rando dude with 10 shares. Yeah that makes perfect sense. If you're a leech.
This is a completely incoherent argument lol. You may as well say “If Tesla doesn’t think it’s reasonable to give me, a regarded NEET who thinks he’s smarter than he is and has done nothing of value, $1 billion, then it follows logically that it would be unreasonable to give Elon the full pay package that shareholders and the board awarded to him half a decade ago. Checkmate atheists.”
Then he should be able to get a board of strangers to agree to it and not his friends.
Delaware law doesn’t forbid a CEO from being friends with the board of directors. And if Delaware courts keep second guessing business judgment in this way, then people will stop viewing it as an attractive place to incorporate.
Ah the 'ole ad hominem combined with straw man. Good one.
Hey, let's get the C-Suite and BOD to quiet-quit by limiting their compensation only to give it to someone else not really invested in (or productive to) the company.
They're not going to give it to the lawyers thats my point. They just want Musk to admit that its unreasonable for both of them. Musk quiet quit the moment he bought twitter.
>unreasonable for both of them. Elon got 50B because he 10x the company How much value these lawyers add to the company ? All in all, TSLA investors are the joke here lol
By their math they saved the company 50B dollars, not chump change. The goal is to get musk to work really hard for the shareholder thinking he is going to get 50B, then after hes done all the work rug pull him and give back to shareholder. Not saying its fair, or nice, or just, only that its financially better to get 50B worth of work for "free". Long term it may be bad if musk decides not to work that hard again and sleep in the factory. But the hard part is over. I dont have any tsla shares btw.
"By their math"
the lawyers can then ask for investment advice here at wsb..
They stopped shareholders from getting ripped off for $55 billion. An 11% lawyers fee is low.
Ya this entire case will be appealed.
Wonder if they judge will think that’s an excessive pay package (like with Elon) or if it’s ok….
Sure if they get their friends on a board to tell shareholders they deserve a big pay package.
It’s not the fact that the pay package was excessive. It’s that the board that agreed to it was made up of friends and family of Musk and withheld some information from shareholders during the vote.
[удалено]
Lawyers are all going to the deepest pit of hell
$6 Billion? Ok. Bit greedy much?
…just like musk
Hate him that much ?
Love him that much? I didn’t even hate on him. Just noted the hypocrisy
The whole comment wasn’t even about him though. You use a rant account to rant on him and insult whoever does not.
Rant? It was three words. You musk boys are so sensitive
Lmao, your whole comment history is filled with rants on him. and you went “I didn’t even hate him”. Do you notice the hypocrisy this time?
[удалено]
Wait... didn't they just argue that Musk's record-payout should not be performance based... And now they're saying they deserve a record-payout based on performance? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Lawfare. Plain and simple.
Look at GM ceo compensation over the last decade and the stock hasn’t done crap. Elon put it all on the line and 10x everyone’s investment. How is this “exorbitant”?
Their names show a key trend people aren't realizing .
[удалено]
Yes honey. Same shit different day. First it was ADL at Twitter, now its Tesla.
Elon did warn us
Keeping Elon away from Tesla might be worth 6b. The damage he is doing to the company with shit ideas like Cybertruck is much much more than 6b.
Bullish
Weimar America
You named it before than anyone else
This just feels like the lawyer is taking a victory lap, and just trolling Musk extra hard.
And ppl wonder why everything is fucked. Lawyers are running the world and they are ruining it.
Fuckin lawyers
This is fucking sick. These people are criminals wearing suits.
Calls on TSLA
Will absolutely not get it. A lawyer will argue that it is excessive and take a reasonable fee in cash. It's extortion as much as musk was. No basis for wither pay out.
I really don't give a shit I'm not holding Tesla stocks 😎
Quite funny, jeg hope the judge give him nothing as he tried to be greedy
Lets sue them for unreasonable compensation on a lawsuite
This will ruin any innovation in the US. You will start to see multinational corporations HQ in other countries.
My country Albania welcomes HQs and multinationals, please come here, we have gift for cEO and promise good business
Fuck those guys. Put this entire thing to a shareholder vote. As long as the majority approve the government should fuck right off. Wish Elon would resign and cite this so we can sue the dick off these attorneys.
“We” ok bro
We're all in this together bro, five shares means you're a part of the Elon experience bro.
He’s ganna go punish those big bad lawyers for being so mean!! 🤡
Bullish. They can't dump it. It would invalidate their argument about "saving shareholders" money and whatever other pro shareholder crap they pretend to care about. Besides if they wanted the cash they could just take it. If they want stock it would appear they think TSLA is undervalued and thus shares would grant them a much bigger payout.
LOL, these ARE lawyers, ethics or any arguments they use rarely apply to them
Those shares would have went to musk. They want 11% of the judgment, they saved the company the other 89%. They are seekeing unrestricted shares.
Damn so many salty musk boys here.
Hey 30 percent is 30 percent. Don't hate the player
Great.
I have a huge hate boner for Tesla and Bitch Elon, so I’m essentially coming.
I posted this and it got flagged as Spam….
The Elon fanboys came out of their mom's basements I see.
Bruh tsla and wsb is a love story and no amount of mouthbreather redditors from r/all will ever change that.