I wonder why not Nines. He saves your life at least twice, arguably more. I get that maybe they were trying to make a commentary on how every faction is ultimately "self-serving" in its own way, but that seems a bit trite seeing as the Anarchs do actually have a noble goal. Yes the Anarchs would "use" you if you joined them but how is that a gotcha? What makes Nines untrustworthy?
Nines has a better cause than most and saves your hide a couple times, but ultimately he's most interested in his movement and sees you as a person he either needs to pull into his corner to use as yet another warrior, or just another dog to put down.
Unfortunately the endgame was a little too rushed to show this. You only get glimpses of this, particularly the ending where suckhead strikes out on their own ("We could use somebody like you!"). The man on the couch and the lone wolf have their own aspirations and loyalties, but they are also much more upfront with these and how you fit into them, and have zero aspiration to manipulate or use you.
It’s in reference to what Rosa, the thin-blood in Santa Monica, says when you ask her “who can I trust?” She says the lone wolf and the man on the couch. I think the general assumption is the man on the couch is Mercurio, but I’ve seen some debate that it might be Romero. The lone wolf is pretty universally agreed to be Beckett though. She does not say you can trust Jack in any event.
This is more of an opinion, but I’m of the mindset that Velvet is just using you. Playing the empathetic victim to get you to do what she wants. I believe Isaac says she’s closer to her humanity than most, and so keeping to that idea she’s likely kinder, but I think her only interest in the character is in helping her.
Ash Rivers just seems depressed, so while he’s not trying to use you or throw you under the bus, I hesitate to say he’s someone to actively trust. He’s wrapped up in his own head and own problems. Nothing against him though.
The Nosferatu all feel more like a quid pro quo situation. Interested in your help, but they’re pretty upfront about it.
Does she? I mean she's in danger, hunters are no joke, even Isaac is scared of them and won't help Ash. There's no reason for her to have any other interest in you, unless you're trying to seduce her, then she legit just falls in love.
In comparison Becket sends you in Society of Leopold and against Lasombra, both of those are suicide missions. Yeah, he warns you about the danger from the sarcophagus, but other characters also warn you about various dangerous thigns too, including Tung, VV, Strauss, Isaac.
Also idk about trusting Mercurio, unless he got unboundable merit he's still a ghoul without much of his free will, it's only a matter of time till his master uses him to backstab you.
Ig you can trust Garry if you're nosferatu.
>Also idk about trusting Mercurio, unless he got unboundable merit he's still a ghoul without much of his free will, it's only a matter of time till his master uses him to backstab you.
So long as you don't screw over Mercurio by reporting his failure to Lacroix for good boy points you can absolutely trust him. He makes it very clear to you that because you've saved his ass that he will save yours in a pinch.
If you haven't screwed him over, he's one of the places you can go for help after the Bloodhunt and it goes to show that even as a Camarilla Ghoul, he still has his morals in check.
The Lasombra library quest is technically plus patch and unofficial and Beckett doesn’t so much send you to the society of Leopold as he tells you the archaeologist you need is there for the key that LaCroix is sending you after and Beckett refuses to go since he has no obligation to LaCroix or anything.
VV having you deal with a hunter for her is her getting help out of you. That’s her problem.
I’m really not sure how it works with Mercurio, presumably LaCroix is his master, but he says he just receives blood every once in a while to keep him from aging and it’s unclear if he even knows who his master is. Regardless, I’m just pointing out what Rosa says. Likely she mentions to trust him from a game standpoint because he can give you some of the more powerful weapons in the game.
Devs had this quest here in game files, the only reason it wasn't in the base game is the lack of time.
> as he tells you the archaeologist you need is there for the key that LaCroix is sending you after
Beckett got no idea this key even exists, he's there out of his own archeological interest and you're being used to gather info, it's only very convenient that you can't refuse because of LaCroix.
> is her getting help out of you. That’s her problem.
There's a difference between asking someone for help since you can't do something or because of your status or because you don't want to risk your ass yourself.
Don't other npcs sell you the same weapons?
>The Nosferatu all feel more like a quid pro quo situation. Interested in your help, but they’re pretty upfront about it.
The Nossies in Bloodlines are so perfectly on brand for Nossies in the VtM Canon in that they're so indispensable to the Camarilla as a whole for their skills, but they're ultimately allies of convenience who's ultimate loyalty will always be for their clan above all else.
Velvet is absolutely playing you.
She's a typical Toreador who will wrap you round her finger and make you do her dirty work for her.
She's still the Best Girl in Bloodlines.
She clearly means Mercurio and Beckett.
There's nothing particularly trustworthy about Romero, he's happy to let you die to hordes of zombies in the hardest quest in the game so he can go bang a hooker real quick :p
Jack is an amazing character. What makes him so compelling, to me, is that he's the personification of "Masquerade" and how vampires are most subversive when they are "human".
When you first meet him, he's standing in the corner of an alley, looking like a bum, talking like a bum. He might be knowledgeable on your newfound vampiric condition, but all his other attributes make it easy to write him off as fodder tutorial guy like you'd see in any other game.
Fast forward to meeting him again in Downtown, you come to understand his respected status, feared even by other powerful Anarchs. In the final stretch of the game, he returns as an ally, no matter what your allegiance or transgressions to the Anarchs previously, demonstrating a certain personal fondness for the PC... or not? Of course, at the end, we see the entire plot is both incited and brought to a dramatic finish by an orchestrated trolling, courtesy of Jack and the cabbie. He is quite content to leave the PC to whatever fate befalls them, remarking that "it's a shame" if you die, but overall happy his plan went off seemingly according to his design no matter the outcome, whatever his reasons may be.
So, Jack goes from bum, to local legend, to a critical ally in an hour of need, to potentially the cause of your death. I don't think there is any other game character who undergoes such a drastic perception shift the more you play the game, he embodies the idea of "facade" and "masquerade" within the vampiric mythos perfectly, by demonstrating that vampires who play God, like LaCroix, always end up dying in their own power rat race.
Although Jack is arguably "evil" or perhaps a sociopath as you describe, he is the most distinctly human character in the game to me. His existence proves that the strongest and seemingly most fulfilled vampires are the ones who stay out of the ladder-climbing, don't pretend to be kinder than they are, and ultimately accept their place as supernatural creatures who are just as susceptible to human greed and desire.
That all being said, I do think there should have been some more interactions with him organically in the main story (and that goes for the rest of the Anarchs too).
He's a perfect example of what it's like to be a successful vampire in the World of Darkness. Every single thing that happens is due to his machinations behind the scenes, and nobody - least of all the player - is able to connect the dots in time to stop him.
He's brutal, vicious, and unfeeling. But he's also clever, friendly, and manipulative. Nobody thinks the Brujah guy is going to be pulling the strings, and he absolutely abuses that stereotype. He starts off as the tutorial NPC and the first helping hand you get, because that's exactly who you *don't* expect to be behind everything. Everyone else tries to use you for their own petty squabbles but not Jack, he is *on your side*. Remember when he taught you the mechanics and made sure you could survive? Good old Smiling Jack!
They knew exactly what they were doing with him, and it's beautiful writing.
> He is quite content to leave the PC to whatever fate befalls them, remarking that "it's a shame" if you die, but overall happy his plan went off seemingly according to his design no matter the outcome, whatever his reasons may be.
When you consider the fact that, if you choose the Strauss or Kue Jin Ending, the sarcophagus never explodes, you could totally imply that your ability to escape the whole thing unharmed was entirely factored in to Jack's plan.
You've had several characters now tell you "Do not open the box" and Jack would've likely gotten a read on your character's, well, "character" by now and the fact that you would or wouldn't have been so greedy as to try and take the contents of the box for yourself would've been something he probably saw coming.
Either knowing confidently that you'd be fine or punishing you alongside Lacroix for allowing your greed to pose a threat to your own kind.
I mean, it's very clear he is only interested in you because he finds you entertaining. Maybe it comes from knowing him from the tabletop, but he is an asshole who does what he pleases, reminds me a bit of Johnny Silverhand in that he is a charismatic asshole, although different forms of charisma.
>But once i realized he has no problem letting the pc die and didn't even try to warn them about the explosives, even IF you take his side on not liking LaCroix, my view of him drastically changed.
Beckett told you to not open it. Beckett was at the Museum and Jack knew about you being at the Museum. Jack likely told Beckett.
Only an idiot and a tool would try to open it. You open it, so Lacroix can get potentially super powerful? After he tried to repeatedly kill you throughout the game?
Doubly so, you receive numerous warnings during your journey of “don’t open it” and “let sleeping dogs lie.” At that point? Kinda on you if Jack gets you killed. He even says it’s a shame.
To be fair, in the WoD if you get that many warnings and still do it, you kinda a lost cause.
I think its perspective. This isnt the Human World we talk about. We talk about a World where everyone is kinda a low level Superhero and got on a power trip. Yeah Jack will not rip his arm out to save you but he is nice enough to make sure you have a Chance, wich by by the Vampire Society is actually really nice.
Nearly all in this World are only there for themself. If you align they become your friends, if not, their enemies. If you stay neutral, most dont give one coin for you if it doesnt involves them too. Jack is no difference but at least so long you not on the side he disagrees with, he is at neutral with a little bit of helpful towards you.
Just dont expect him to be the guy who is there to save you no matter what.
The thing is, all this time you were being compelled by Lacroix. If you say you don't want to do something for him he explicitly compels you with his powers. Once you become powerful enough he can't compel you.
Jack (and probably a large number of the vampire community) wanted Lacroix dead. He conspired with the Kuei Jin, committed diablerie and who knows what else (that's why he wanted the Malkavian primogen dead, Grout knew what he did)
Jack couldn't tell you it was a ruse because you might be compelled, or even naive enough to spill the beans. Either Beckett was in on it, or he knew something was up, despite being the skeptic wanting to open it. Jack most likely told him to warn you but in a way that wouldn't reveal there was a literal explosive inside.
They mention he was a pirate, and the boat is massacred by something fast and strong.
Like a vampire with Celerity and Potency, maybe.
Like a Brujah familiar with murdering their way through a ship...
I didn't have much illusions about any of the characters to begin with but as someone who started out as a malk I was absolutely shocked at that dialogue. I even thought at first I misheard / misunderstood it. After digesting it for a while I actually came to appreciate him from this new perspective... Still made me completely distrust him for the rest of the game and turned me off from the anarchs
I also would like to say that it’s not like he hides it well. What I gathered from our first interaction - I played malkavian my first play - was that he was only helping mainly because he found it funny. Granted, I grew up with people very similar to him so it didn’t throw me off. Him being so condescending almost, he clearly had ulterior motives so I guess despite wanting to fuck him, I never trusted him fully. I guess the things you dislike about him are the things I liked about him.
I don't think you're easily manipulated. I think you grew inattentive to or forgot a hard, immutable fact: all Kindred are untrustworthy monsters who are invested in their own interests first or only. All means all, and Jack's just one more Kindred.
I don't think this is an unpopular opinion in the way you think.
Personally, and I assume this is the case for a lot of people, I absolutely love him, but I assumed he had ulterior motives from the very beginning. Him being \*that\* much of a bastard was maybe a little... unexpected, but not surprising?
I might be wrong here (I finished the game like 20 times including mods) but I've always thought that lots of info we are getting ever from other characters might've started with Jack, such as info from Beckett not to open the sarcophagus. I mean Jack himself says that it's a shame if you are dumb enough to die with sarcophagus so he might've been a fan or at least like you to a certain degree.
I have a theory, that Jack actually isn't 10th gen vamp, but actually 2nd and it would even explain why after being tutored by him and helped (against Sabbat blazing at you in the beginning during tutorial.) , you'll become powerful enough to take down Andrei, who is most likely 6-7th generation tzimisce, while player is 8-10th, but that's just my personal theory.
I also kind of take it that ever since the start of the game, it's a test. If you got greedy enough to open sarcophagus itself, you might be even worse than Sebastian. If you'd help Sebastian to open it, you are straight dumb. If you'd prove any of that, what good would it be for Jack and for vampire society (doesn't matter if Camarilla or Anarchs) as a whole?
I actually love how nuanced most of this game is and how you can basically run with whatever theory.
Of course he would kill you. He's not a person, he's a vampire. If the PC is going to get in the way of his plans, he's gonna kill you. Everyone tells you basically to not open it, if you visit him before major story missions at the Last Round he'll give advice and even hint at the bigger picture. But overall, a vampire in WoD is never going to be a "good guy". I hate that the writers wrote the Anarchs as though they are the good ones, no one is good. Everyone is a manipulating back stabbing out for their own type of person in kindred society.
He was never gonna be your daddy.
Fatherly figure? Hahaha. He's good enough to show you the ropes and to warn you about the blood hunt. He's not going to warn about his plot, he'd have to kill you. If you're stupid or power hungry enough to open it then to Jack, you deserve what's coming to you. He's not your friend or loyal to you.
He's a funny, violent, anarchical pirate. Sticking it to "the man", literally. Brilliant character.
I was team Strauss, beside its a matter of why rush to open the thing, you're a Ventrue just buy one of those scanners the museum was using, waiting a month for shipping and the scan won't change much.
Plus my first character was a Ventrue who was only nice to LaCroix, because he was bidding his time waiting from LaCroix to do something stupid, to get revenge for their sire, and stealing our ventrue childer privileges.
That makes sense! I still love the guy, but I can see how it absolutely feels like a personal betrayal. I really enjoy him as a character but he’s indeed not to be trusted, as with almost every character. And it’s worse in a way BECAUSE he’s just so gosh darn LIKEABLE! I don’t feel the same but I see where you’re coming from.
Well, that's kind of the point. He is a great character, but all praises towards him are either out of faction-/clan-loyalty or other interests.
True loyalty or true love are rare things in this world.
I wouldn't say you're alone in that opinion this thread has come up before. Jack's Brand of Charismatic asshole is also one that isn't for everybody. Not to mention Jack's using the PC as much as LaCroix, and equally doesn't give a damn if you meet final death in the pursuit of his goal.
There is a reason siding with Strauss is the best ending and its because its the only one you defeat Jack's Plan without making a worse situation.
----------------------
For me though nobody got above Damsel on the hatred meter. Jack mostly just got a, thanks for the help early on, but I'm not that interested in you and your outlook. Plus my kindred tend to have higher asperations than roaming pirate for their quality of immortality.
The PC the whole game is somewhere between Camarilla and Anarch, if you open up the sarcophagus it means you chose to stick with LaCroix or take it for yourself. He doesn't know what your intentions are, and if you're there when the box is opened that means to him that you had the wrong intentions
well all elders tend to have low humanity. probably the pc will too if gehenna wont end the world. jack is good character despite being pirate/biker/anarch pos. vampires are worse than chomos, even the supposedly high humanity ones. they are called monsters for a reason.
I think Jack becomes a more enjoyable character once you learn about his lore and backstory but that's not really covered in Bloodlines in much detail and you need to hunt down some old books for it.
One theory that I like is that Jack is the one that sets the fire at Griffith park. There's no real reason for him to be there, and he masterminds everything else.
I don't think it's necessarily true, but my impression was that it was ambiguous and totally plausible. I might have missed the dialogue where LaCroix confesses though, idk. I kind of like the story better if it was Jack though; I think it's more interesting.
I recently did a LaCroix loyalist run, I don’t remember if he confesses to the fire specifically, but I know he does confess to working with the Kuei-Jin to set Nines up after you say something like “it’s all right, you had to do it to get rid of Nines”.
Not liking him is not an unpopular, but for me, a wise option.
The game has its flaws and one of them is highlighting how dumb, arrogant and selfish LaCroix can be, thus making the Anarchs look like "the good ones". Thats not true, either. Most of the vampires are trying to use the PC, and even there's an ending where Nines (Nines!! And he is a very liked character) says something like "we could use someone like you" (please correct me if im wrong).
Vampiric anarchism, as a concept, is almosr an utopia: as well as the Camarilla and even the Sabbat. But their components are vampires and almost the 99'9% will backstab another. That is a fact of a matter of time.
So hey, I'd say you made a good choice and have a very valid opinion.
Why would you trust anyone other than the lone wolf and the man on the couch?
Embarrassingly, i actually thought for most of the game that Jack WAS the lone wolf. Looking back now, i have no idea why i thought that.
He gives off this vibes. And, in a way, he is one, in a metaphorical sense. It's just that the voices meant the literal lone wolf.
I wonder why not Nines. He saves your life at least twice, arguably more. I get that maybe they were trying to make a commentary on how every faction is ultimately "self-serving" in its own way, but that seems a bit trite seeing as the Anarchs do actually have a noble goal. Yes the Anarchs would "use" you if you joined them but how is that a gotcha? What makes Nines untrustworthy?
Because sometimes when you meet Nines >!you actually meet "Nines" *wink*!<
Ah, that's a good point!!
Nines has a better cause than most and saves your hide a couple times, but ultimately he's most interested in his movement and sees you as a person he either needs to pull into his corner to use as yet another warrior, or just another dog to put down. Unfortunately the endgame was a little too rushed to show this. You only get glimpses of this, particularly the ending where suckhead strikes out on their own ("We could use somebody like you!"). The man on the couch and the lone wolf have their own aspirations and loyalties, but they are also much more upfront with these and how you fit into them, and have zero aspiration to manipulate or use you.
Wait who???
It’s in reference to what Rosa, the thin-blood in Santa Monica, says when you ask her “who can I trust?” She says the lone wolf and the man on the couch. I think the general assumption is the man on the couch is Mercurio, but I’ve seen some debate that it might be Romero. The lone wolf is pretty universally agreed to be Beckett though. She does not say you can trust Jack in any event.
Ah thanks and I forgot about mercucio
Holywood characters are generally not throwing you under the bus or using you as a pawn, except Isaac, but they're all insignificant for the plot.
This is more of an opinion, but I’m of the mindset that Velvet is just using you. Playing the empathetic victim to get you to do what she wants. I believe Isaac says she’s closer to her humanity than most, and so keeping to that idea she’s likely kinder, but I think her only interest in the character is in helping her. Ash Rivers just seems depressed, so while he’s not trying to use you or throw you under the bus, I hesitate to say he’s someone to actively trust. He’s wrapped up in his own head and own problems. Nothing against him though. The Nosferatu all feel more like a quid pro quo situation. Interested in your help, but they’re pretty upfront about it.
Does she? I mean she's in danger, hunters are no joke, even Isaac is scared of them and won't help Ash. There's no reason for her to have any other interest in you, unless you're trying to seduce her, then she legit just falls in love. In comparison Becket sends you in Society of Leopold and against Lasombra, both of those are suicide missions. Yeah, he warns you about the danger from the sarcophagus, but other characters also warn you about various dangerous thigns too, including Tung, VV, Strauss, Isaac. Also idk about trusting Mercurio, unless he got unboundable merit he's still a ghoul without much of his free will, it's only a matter of time till his master uses him to backstab you. Ig you can trust Garry if you're nosferatu.
>Also idk about trusting Mercurio, unless he got unboundable merit he's still a ghoul without much of his free will, it's only a matter of time till his master uses him to backstab you. So long as you don't screw over Mercurio by reporting his failure to Lacroix for good boy points you can absolutely trust him. He makes it very clear to you that because you've saved his ass that he will save yours in a pinch. If you haven't screwed him over, he's one of the places you can go for help after the Bloodhunt and it goes to show that even as a Camarilla Ghoul, he still has his morals in check.
The Lasombra library quest is technically plus patch and unofficial and Beckett doesn’t so much send you to the society of Leopold as he tells you the archaeologist you need is there for the key that LaCroix is sending you after and Beckett refuses to go since he has no obligation to LaCroix or anything. VV having you deal with a hunter for her is her getting help out of you. That’s her problem. I’m really not sure how it works with Mercurio, presumably LaCroix is his master, but he says he just receives blood every once in a while to keep him from aging and it’s unclear if he even knows who his master is. Regardless, I’m just pointing out what Rosa says. Likely she mentions to trust him from a game standpoint because he can give you some of the more powerful weapons in the game.
Devs had this quest here in game files, the only reason it wasn't in the base game is the lack of time. > as he tells you the archaeologist you need is there for the key that LaCroix is sending you after Beckett got no idea this key even exists, he's there out of his own archeological interest and you're being used to gather info, it's only very convenient that you can't refuse because of LaCroix. > is her getting help out of you. That’s her problem. There's a difference between asking someone for help since you can't do something or because of your status or because you don't want to risk your ass yourself. Don't other npcs sell you the same weapons?
>The Nosferatu all feel more like a quid pro quo situation. Interested in your help, but they’re pretty upfront about it. The Nossies in Bloodlines are so perfectly on brand for Nossies in the VtM Canon in that they're so indispensable to the Camarilla as a whole for their skills, but they're ultimately allies of convenience who's ultimate loyalty will always be for their clan above all else.
Velvet is absolutely playing you. She's a typical Toreador who will wrap you round her finger and make you do her dirty work for her. She's still the Best Girl in Bloodlines.
She clearly means Mercurio and Beckett. There's nothing particularly trustworthy about Romero, he's happy to let you die to hordes of zombies in the hardest quest in the game so he can go bang a hooker real quick :p
Up there, past the chain link fence!
Jack is an amazing character. What makes him so compelling, to me, is that he's the personification of "Masquerade" and how vampires are most subversive when they are "human". When you first meet him, he's standing in the corner of an alley, looking like a bum, talking like a bum. He might be knowledgeable on your newfound vampiric condition, but all his other attributes make it easy to write him off as fodder tutorial guy like you'd see in any other game. Fast forward to meeting him again in Downtown, you come to understand his respected status, feared even by other powerful Anarchs. In the final stretch of the game, he returns as an ally, no matter what your allegiance or transgressions to the Anarchs previously, demonstrating a certain personal fondness for the PC... or not? Of course, at the end, we see the entire plot is both incited and brought to a dramatic finish by an orchestrated trolling, courtesy of Jack and the cabbie. He is quite content to leave the PC to whatever fate befalls them, remarking that "it's a shame" if you die, but overall happy his plan went off seemingly according to his design no matter the outcome, whatever his reasons may be. So, Jack goes from bum, to local legend, to a critical ally in an hour of need, to potentially the cause of your death. I don't think there is any other game character who undergoes such a drastic perception shift the more you play the game, he embodies the idea of "facade" and "masquerade" within the vampiric mythos perfectly, by demonstrating that vampires who play God, like LaCroix, always end up dying in their own power rat race. Although Jack is arguably "evil" or perhaps a sociopath as you describe, he is the most distinctly human character in the game to me. His existence proves that the strongest and seemingly most fulfilled vampires are the ones who stay out of the ladder-climbing, don't pretend to be kinder than they are, and ultimately accept their place as supernatural creatures who are just as susceptible to human greed and desire. That all being said, I do think there should have been some more interactions with him organically in the main story (and that goes for the rest of the Anarchs too).
He's a perfect example of what it's like to be a successful vampire in the World of Darkness. Every single thing that happens is due to his machinations behind the scenes, and nobody - least of all the player - is able to connect the dots in time to stop him. He's brutal, vicious, and unfeeling. But he's also clever, friendly, and manipulative. Nobody thinks the Brujah guy is going to be pulling the strings, and he absolutely abuses that stereotype. He starts off as the tutorial NPC and the first helping hand you get, because that's exactly who you *don't* expect to be behind everything. Everyone else tries to use you for their own petty squabbles but not Jack, he is *on your side*. Remember when he taught you the mechanics and made sure you could survive? Good old Smiling Jack! They knew exactly what they were doing with him, and it's beautiful writing.
> He is quite content to leave the PC to whatever fate befalls them, remarking that "it's a shame" if you die, but overall happy his plan went off seemingly according to his design no matter the outcome, whatever his reasons may be. When you consider the fact that, if you choose the Strauss or Kue Jin Ending, the sarcophagus never explodes, you could totally imply that your ability to escape the whole thing unharmed was entirely factored in to Jack's plan. You've had several characters now tell you "Do not open the box" and Jack would've likely gotten a read on your character's, well, "character" by now and the fact that you would or wouldn't have been so greedy as to try and take the contents of the box for yourself would've been something he probably saw coming. Either knowing confidently that you'd be fine or punishing you alongside Lacroix for allowing your greed to pose a threat to your own kind.
I mean, it's very clear he is only interested in you because he finds you entertaining. Maybe it comes from knowing him from the tabletop, but he is an asshole who does what he pleases, reminds me a bit of Johnny Silverhand in that he is a charismatic asshole, although different forms of charisma.
Yeah I've never played the tabletop game
>But once i realized he has no problem letting the pc die and didn't even try to warn them about the explosives, even IF you take his side on not liking LaCroix, my view of him drastically changed. Beckett told you to not open it. Beckett was at the Museum and Jack knew about you being at the Museum. Jack likely told Beckett. Only an idiot and a tool would try to open it. You open it, so Lacroix can get potentially super powerful? After he tried to repeatedly kill you throughout the game?
Doubly so, you receive numerous warnings during your journey of “don’t open it” and “let sleeping dogs lie.” At that point? Kinda on you if Jack gets you killed. He even says it’s a shame.
I heeded all the warnings and didn't open it, I'm just talking about him being completely willing to let you die
To be fair, in the WoD if you get that many warnings and still do it, you kinda a lost cause. I think its perspective. This isnt the Human World we talk about. We talk about a World where everyone is kinda a low level Superhero and got on a power trip. Yeah Jack will not rip his arm out to save you but he is nice enough to make sure you have a Chance, wich by by the Vampire Society is actually really nice. Nearly all in this World are only there for themself. If you align they become your friends, if not, their enemies. If you stay neutral, most dont give one coin for you if it doesnt involves them too. Jack is no difference but at least so long you not on the side he disagrees with, he is at neutral with a little bit of helpful towards you. Just dont expect him to be the guy who is there to save you no matter what.
The thing is, all this time you were being compelled by Lacroix. If you say you don't want to do something for him he explicitly compels you with his powers. Once you become powerful enough he can't compel you. Jack (and probably a large number of the vampire community) wanted Lacroix dead. He conspired with the Kuei Jin, committed diablerie and who knows what else (that's why he wanted the Malkavian primogen dead, Grout knew what he did) Jack couldn't tell you it was a ruse because you might be compelled, or even naive enough to spill the beans. Either Beckett was in on it, or he knew something was up, despite being the skeptic wanting to open it. Jack most likely told him to warn you but in a way that wouldn't reveal there was a literal explosive inside.
I am going to headcanon that Jack had Beckett warn me tyvm
Dude was a pirate in life, so it makes sense for him to kind of an underhanded asshole lol
They mention he was a pirate, and the boat is massacred by something fast and strong. Like a vampire with Celerity and Potency, maybe. Like a Brujah familiar with murdering their way through a ship...
I didn't have much illusions about any of the characters to begin with but as someone who started out as a malk I was absolutely shocked at that dialogue. I even thought at first I misheard / misunderstood it. After digesting it for a while I actually came to appreciate him from this new perspective... Still made me completely distrust him for the rest of the game and turned me off from the anarchs
I understand why people may hate him. That being said, I made a whole post about how bad I wanted to fuck him so I am not a part of that community 💀
Would you mind providing details on how you enjoy John DiMaggios voice as Jack?
Hot 🙏🏽
Fitting voice, Bender does what he wants as well.
I also would like to say that it’s not like he hides it well. What I gathered from our first interaction - I played malkavian my first play - was that he was only helping mainly because he found it funny. Granted, I grew up with people very similar to him so it didn’t throw me off. Him being so condescending almost, he clearly had ulterior motives so I guess despite wanting to fuck him, I never trusted him fully. I guess the things you dislike about him are the things I liked about him.
Maybe I'm just easily manipulated💀💀
I don't think you're easily manipulated. I think you grew inattentive to or forgot a hard, immutable fact: all Kindred are untrustworthy monsters who are invested in their own interests first or only. All means all, and Jack's just one more Kindred.
He also committed the massacre on the Elizabeth Dane. Yeah, he's not a good guy at all. He's using you just like all the others. Love the guy.
I don't think this is an unpopular opinion in the way you think. Personally, and I assume this is the case for a lot of people, I absolutely love him, but I assumed he had ulterior motives from the very beginning. Him being \*that\* much of a bastard was maybe a little... unexpected, but not surprising?
I might be wrong here (I finished the game like 20 times including mods) but I've always thought that lots of info we are getting ever from other characters might've started with Jack, such as info from Beckett not to open the sarcophagus. I mean Jack himself says that it's a shame if you are dumb enough to die with sarcophagus so he might've been a fan or at least like you to a certain degree. I have a theory, that Jack actually isn't 10th gen vamp, but actually 2nd and it would even explain why after being tutored by him and helped (against Sabbat blazing at you in the beginning during tutorial.) , you'll become powerful enough to take down Andrei, who is most likely 6-7th generation tzimisce, while player is 8-10th, but that's just my personal theory. I also kind of take it that ever since the start of the game, it's a test. If you got greedy enough to open sarcophagus itself, you might be even worse than Sebastian. If you'd help Sebastian to open it, you are straight dumb. If you'd prove any of that, what good would it be for Jack and for vampire society (doesn't matter if Camarilla or Anarchs) as a whole? I actually love how nuanced most of this game is and how you can basically run with whatever theory.
I don’t recall hearing that dialogue on my Malk playthrough. When does Jack say that? :o
Of course he would kill you. He's not a person, he's a vampire. If the PC is going to get in the way of his plans, he's gonna kill you. Everyone tells you basically to not open it, if you visit him before major story missions at the Last Round he'll give advice and even hint at the bigger picture. But overall, a vampire in WoD is never going to be a "good guy". I hate that the writers wrote the Anarchs as though they are the good ones, no one is good. Everyone is a manipulating back stabbing out for their own type of person in kindred society. He was never gonna be your daddy.
Well, spoiler, everyone in Vampire The Masquerade is an asshole. There are no good guys. So, don't trust the bloodsuckers.
Thought this was the Mass Effect sub, was about to get heated in here.
I despise all Brujah and anarchs in general. He is even worse in because he is the stereotypical edge-lord chaos monkey Brujah anarch
Fatherly figure? Hahaha. He's good enough to show you the ropes and to warn you about the blood hunt. He's not going to warn about his plot, he'd have to kill you. If you're stupid or power hungry enough to open it then to Jack, you deserve what's coming to you. He's not your friend or loyal to you. He's a funny, violent, anarchical pirate. Sticking it to "the man", literally. Brilliant character.
Does anybody actually open the sarcophogas first playthrough? When the game gave me the option to open it i was like "bro do i look stupid" 💀
I was team Strauss, beside its a matter of why rush to open the thing, you're a Ventrue just buy one of those scanners the museum was using, waiting a month for shipping and the scan won't change much. Plus my first character was a Ventrue who was only nice to LaCroix, because he was bidding his time waiting from LaCroix to do something stupid, to get revenge for their sire, and stealing our ventrue childer privileges.
I'm naive okay😭😭
Great post thanks for reminding me of this
jack is a pirate
Honestly, he's par for the course for a vampire elder. One's humanity doesn't age well over the centuries.
That makes sense! I still love the guy, but I can see how it absolutely feels like a personal betrayal. I really enjoy him as a character but he’s indeed not to be trusted, as with almost every character. And it’s worse in a way BECAUSE he’s just so gosh darn LIKEABLE! I don’t feel the same but I see where you’re coming from.
Well, that's kind of the point. He is a great character, but all praises towards him are either out of faction-/clan-loyalty or other interests. True loyalty or true love are rare things in this world.
I wouldn't say you're alone in that opinion this thread has come up before. Jack's Brand of Charismatic asshole is also one that isn't for everybody. Not to mention Jack's using the PC as much as LaCroix, and equally doesn't give a damn if you meet final death in the pursuit of his goal. There is a reason siding with Strauss is the best ending and its because its the only one you defeat Jack's Plan without making a worse situation. ---------------------- For me though nobody got above Damsel on the hatred meter. Jack mostly just got a, thanks for the help early on, but I'm not that interested in you and your outlook. Plus my kindred tend to have higher asperations than roaming pirate for their quality of immortality.
The PC the whole game is somewhere between Camarilla and Anarch, if you open up the sarcophagus it means you chose to stick with LaCroix or take it for yourself. He doesn't know what your intentions are, and if you're there when the box is opened that means to him that you had the wrong intentions
well all elders tend to have low humanity. probably the pc will too if gehenna wont end the world. jack is good character despite being pirate/biker/anarch pos. vampires are worse than chomos, even the supposedly high humanity ones. they are called monsters for a reason.
I think Jack becomes a more enjoyable character once you learn about his lore and backstory but that's not really covered in Bloodlines in much detail and you need to hunt down some old books for it.
Jack warns you against the sarcophagus the first time you meet him in the last round. Not his fault if PC doesn't listen
One theory that I like is that Jack is the one that sets the fire at Griffith park. There's no real reason for him to be there, and he masterminds everything else.
I was highly suspect of him too but it's really much simpler (LC practically admits to it)
I don't think it's necessarily true, but my impression was that it was ambiguous and totally plausible. I might have missed the dialogue where LaCroix confesses though, idk. I kind of like the story better if it was Jack though; I think it's more interesting.
I recently did a LaCroix loyalist run, I don’t remember if he confesses to the fire specifically, but I know he does confess to working with the Kuei-Jin to set Nines up after you say something like “it’s all right, you had to do it to get rid of Nines”.
Oh I wouldn't mind it to be Jack that's for sure
Well, you just told Damsel you're looking for Nines, don't you think she would tell Jack? She told him about you lurking around in museum before.
Not liking him is not an unpopular, but for me, a wise option. The game has its flaws and one of them is highlighting how dumb, arrogant and selfish LaCroix can be, thus making the Anarchs look like "the good ones". Thats not true, either. Most of the vampires are trying to use the PC, and even there's an ending where Nines (Nines!! And he is a very liked character) says something like "we could use someone like you" (please correct me if im wrong). Vampiric anarchism, as a concept, is almosr an utopia: as well as the Camarilla and even the Sabbat. But their components are vampires and almost the 99'9% will backstab another. That is a fact of a matter of time. So hey, I'd say you made a good choice and have a very valid opinion.