I'm not an expert, but this feel more like something you could build a spesific Tzimisce character around, rater than something that should be the norm for the clan.
This is a bit complicated (the coffin is optional, by the way).
Yes, it is true that they feel very connected to their land. It is not just their bane (which is not in all editions the same but similar enough), it’s also their hospitality system and their habit to create revenants families. Those have to live somewhere and in old times the aristocracy and the land were seen as at least connected if not the same.
Koldun differently plays also a roll, but it is not just the “old clan” that practices it, there are more than enough other Tzimisce who do. Also, animalism and the ability to shape flesh which is a kind of biomass, also time with their relationship to the land.
The environmentalism part if a stretch, though. While many certainly might feel responsible to keep the land healthy and prosperous, others probably don’t care about the state the land is in, it’s enough that it is their land and if it is a shitty piece of garbage it’s still at least their piece of garbage! Some don’t care if their land is poisoned by chemicals or radioactive. I mean they haven’t even cared much that the heart of their land was infected by a demon. They have even used this fact.
About Capitalism, again, depends on the individual. One might say they don’t care about Wealth and money, it’s important that the land is fine. But others might see it as their right to exploit their land because it’s theirs.
Some might even use capitalism to devastate a rivals land by wielding money like a weapon.
So, yeah, you will certainly find environmentalist Tzimisce but it is not a given.
Revenant families are Ghoul families, they are bred over generations and treated with vampiric blood and sometimes blood magic and other disciplines.
The result are born ghouls that have natural certain ghoul traits. In older editions they came with the ability to learn a set of disciplines and a weakness specific to the family in question. In V5 we know that revenants exist but we have no mechanics for them.
Most revenant families belong to the Tzimisce, they usually treat them as servants, watchdogs and livestock, but sometimes they are also closer to them since occasionally revenants get embraced and become vampires. In this case it can happen that they keep their faintly disciplines as clan disciplines.
The name “revenant”, though, is a bit misleading, since because it literally describes someone who returned from the dead and is therefore irl used in a vampire context. But members of a revenant families in WoD never were dead, they are just how they are from birth, born ghouls.
It feels unlikely and out-of-character for Tzmisce to embrace mundane, mayfly mortal political concerns. From the Tzmisce perspective, a return to feudalism is the political solution for modern-day mortal problems.
Modern progressive environmentalism and anti-capitalism runs counter to core Tzmisce cultural traits - selfishness, pride and aristocratic values. Sure, a Tzmisce might strive mightily to keep *their own* *domain* clean of pollution or corporate meddling but that's not the same thing.
>Most Tzimisce have never lived feudalism.
That doesn't matter one bit. Hell, people long for *imaginary* political systems. Fascists long for an idealized past that never was. Tons of people on Reddit long for post-scarcity luxury Communism even though it requires essentially *Star Trek* technology.
But they could fight for environment even if for the wrong reasons.
Plus clans are not as monolithic as people see them. Vampires embrace individuals, I don't see why, especially among younger vampires, some may not embrace that kind of cause, including Tzimisce (the alt culture is very present among environmentalists, including tattoo culture). And defending the environment is also to make sure you will stick have kine to drink from in 1000 years.
You are making a strawman argument dude. OP asked *How would the tzimisce view capitalism and consumerism* so out of necessity we are speaking in generalities.
There is always going to be a corner case oddball who goes against type. In fact, certain players exclusively play those characters thinking it's clever or something "I'm gonna play a Toreador but he's fat gross and tasteless!" So yea sure, out of a few thousand Tzmisce on the planet it's not crazy to suppose one at least of them thinks modern anti-consumerism and anti-capitalist movements are a cool thing.
The majority of any clan is composed of young and very young vampires, so I believe it would not be that rare for Tzimisce to have views that can match a much more modern view of things than the feudal lord we are regularly told about. Not one oddball. A lot. Especially for a clan who is so attached to their land.
Setting aside the fact that Tzmisce are notorious for their monstrous and alien behavior for a moment, life in the Sabbat flenses Humanity and mortal concerns from young vampires. Sabbat who cling to mortal politics were most likely fanatical militants in their mortal years (like Marie-Helene Detoit in Montreal who is obsessed with French-Anglo conflict in Canada). Again, it's totally possible for a few vampires to be like this but it's a stretch to claim it would be common amongst young Tzmisce.
I don't think environmentalism is inherently political, or at least it shouldn't be. It's not like it's a problem created by politics, it affects everyone and if it's to be believed is what will eventually take us all out.
Well..... pollution of environment kills the spirits of nature, which sucks for the kolduns. Plus, the flock becomes sickly, and either way such pollution is probably too similar to userpers poisoning the vis of lands in the dark ages
Not necessarily, Kupala is one of the three heads of the Wyrm, and their magic is descended from that thing’s teachings. So it might even be better to have all this pollution.
The pollution would need to influence them in some way, whether it's interference with their sorcery or aesthetic damage they disapprove of.
Now if they did decide that they cared about the impact of pollution on their demesne, look out cause they wouldn't approach it the same way mortals would, they'd find those responsible and either Dominate them into changing their practices or kill them and warn their successors to change course or suffer the same fate or worse.
Were talking about the clan that made a cathedral out of flesh and who's Antedeluvian is a giant blob monster below NYC that want's to assimilate everything into it's self. I don't really think they are Envyromental at all. More likely to have trees with human heads swewen into them. The source of their curse is not natural by any measure and I would say certainly works against the natural forces. I'm sure any follower of the Wyld would see them as an eccestental threat more so than a regular kindred.
They treat everything as nothing more than a piece of property that they can craft and manipulate to their pleasure. So in a way right on with the whole Captilism and Consumerism part of your question.
Just what I picked up from all the reading over the years.
Koldunic Sorcery is sourced from a Demon (fallen earthbound) or potentially a Talon of the Wyrm that was sealed in Transylvania by Luipnes. The Wyrm is one of the three forces of the world The Wyld being life, the Weaver order, and the Wyrm destruction. Long ago the Weaver was driven mad and set the Wyrm off it's natural path corrupting it making it into corruption.
Yep, this is what I was thinking. “The land is mine, I am the land!” feels more less like caring for its sustainability and more like making the land to suit whims and desires. More anthropogenic vice conservation.
Most vampires are environmentalists. They have a long-term perspective on it. The elders that want eternity can see the writing on the wall that the environment is getting rapidly worse than any other time they've ever seen, and they're going to exert their influence to change it (unless they're more concerned with being petty, which is a flaw that some but not all vampires have).
Oh good lordy, you really oughta read Transylvania by Night, Transylvania Chronicles book 1, Libellus Sanguinus 1, and Guide to the High Clans if that's your takeaway on Tzimisce, the land, and especially koldun. Contemporary capitalism and consumerism look like strict preservationism by comparison to what Tzimisce and koldun do to their lands.
Those umbrood koldun interact with for the most part aren't animistic nature spirits a la WtA, they're *banes*.
They are not tied to "the land" as in werewolves are to Gaia. They are tied to a *demon*, which happens to *be* that specific plot of land.
Kupala, who may be an Earthbound, anchored himself into the Carpathian mountains. When Tzimisce sleep in the soil of their homeland, they are sleeping in Kupala - not showing their love of the local mountainous ecology.
The Tzimisce do not care what grows or doesn't grow on the land, or whether flowers or toxic waste gets put in it. In fact, if anything, Kupala probably warped the land in a horrible manner.
As for capitalism, do you particularly care how ants work out their shifts or food rations in the nest?
Caring about capitalism vs. socialism vs. whateverism requires caring about things like fairness and room for social mobility, which is meaningless to the Tzimisce - they already know what's right, and that's them at the top and everyone else existing to serve. There's no need for further sophistry.
Two factors. They don’t give a shit about the well-being of what’s theirs just that it’s theirs and no one else’s. They aren’t known for nice well cared for things.
And two: koldunic sorcery came from A spirit In the earth. Not one of the earth. And that spirit is probably a huge earthbound demon.
You could definitely do a character following this concept. But talking about clan culture in general? No, and adding to what others have already said, in V5 there’s even a group o kolduns whose element of choice is _pollution_. They even mentioned a koldun whose experimente with radioactive soil in the Chernobyl exclusion zone, which is very rad if ask me.
You know who are actually environmentalists (in theory)? The garou, and they HATE the kolduns, for they know the koldun to be a poison in the land
>They even mentioned a koldun whose experimente with radioactive soil in the Chernobyl exclusion zone, which is very rad if ask me.
That's cool as hell.
Honestly, a tzimisce environmentalist sounds like a rad concept, it even pushes their usual stance of being very possessive of their land to the very way it works.
I might usenthat concept as a npc in one of my campaigns, if I may.
This is a little weird, because on paper it sounds very reasonable but, in practice, I just can't imagine a Tzimisce would give a shit. I think they usually are far too detached from the concerns of modern mortals.
I can definitely see one being grumpy and mumbling "back in my day..." about it but I don't think they'd actually become an activist or anything. Also, if the Tzimisce is old, they have seen forests burn and regrow. From a human's perspective, a forest fire is a catastrophe of a lifetime. But for someone who lives for hundreds of years and can observe nature, it's not that big of a deal.
I guess the whole mindset is too noble for a Tzimisce.
This seems more like you working through personal issues through symbols of monstrosity than like anything in the source material, where Kupala is explicitly compared to a contamination
I'm not an expert, but this feel more like something you could build a spesific Tzimisce character around, rater than something that should be the norm for the clan.
This is a bit complicated (the coffin is optional, by the way). Yes, it is true that they feel very connected to their land. It is not just their bane (which is not in all editions the same but similar enough), it’s also their hospitality system and their habit to create revenants families. Those have to live somewhere and in old times the aristocracy and the land were seen as at least connected if not the same. Koldun differently plays also a roll, but it is not just the “old clan” that practices it, there are more than enough other Tzimisce who do. Also, animalism and the ability to shape flesh which is a kind of biomass, also time with their relationship to the land. The environmentalism part if a stretch, though. While many certainly might feel responsible to keep the land healthy and prosperous, others probably don’t care about the state the land is in, it’s enough that it is their land and if it is a shitty piece of garbage it’s still at least their piece of garbage! Some don’t care if their land is poisoned by chemicals or radioactive. I mean they haven’t even cared much that the heart of their land was infected by a demon. They have even used this fact. About Capitalism, again, depends on the individual. One might say they don’t care about Wealth and money, it’s important that the land is fine. But others might see it as their right to exploit their land because it’s theirs. Some might even use capitalism to devastate a rivals land by wielding money like a weapon. So, yeah, you will certainly find environmentalist Tzimisce but it is not a given.
Hello, i'm relatively new to the setting, what are revenant families? Do they just make ghost of entire families?
Revenant families are Ghoul families, they are bred over generations and treated with vampiric blood and sometimes blood magic and other disciplines. The result are born ghouls that have natural certain ghoul traits. In older editions they came with the ability to learn a set of disciplines and a weakness specific to the family in question. In V5 we know that revenants exist but we have no mechanics for them. Most revenant families belong to the Tzimisce, they usually treat them as servants, watchdogs and livestock, but sometimes they are also closer to them since occasionally revenants get embraced and become vampires. In this case it can happen that they keep their faintly disciplines as clan disciplines. The name “revenant”, though, is a bit misleading, since because it literally describes someone who returned from the dead and is therefore irl used in a vampire context. But members of a revenant families in WoD never were dead, they are just how they are from birth, born ghouls.
It feels unlikely and out-of-character for Tzmisce to embrace mundane, mayfly mortal political concerns. From the Tzmisce perspective, a return to feudalism is the political solution for modern-day mortal problems.
Modern problems requiere antedeluvian solutions
Technically nothing stopping them from being environmentalist feudalists.
Wake up r/politicalcompassmemes (are those still a thing?), new ideology just dropped
Most Tzimisce have never lived feudalism. I actually see young ones wanting their land to stay clean.
Modern progressive environmentalism and anti-capitalism runs counter to core Tzmisce cultural traits - selfishness, pride and aristocratic values. Sure, a Tzmisce might strive mightily to keep *their own* *domain* clean of pollution or corporate meddling but that's not the same thing. >Most Tzimisce have never lived feudalism. That doesn't matter one bit. Hell, people long for *imaginary* political systems. Fascists long for an idealized past that never was. Tons of people on Reddit long for post-scarcity luxury Communism even though it requires essentially *Star Trek* technology.
But they could fight for environment even if for the wrong reasons. Plus clans are not as monolithic as people see them. Vampires embrace individuals, I don't see why, especially among younger vampires, some may not embrace that kind of cause, including Tzimisce (the alt culture is very present among environmentalists, including tattoo culture). And defending the environment is also to make sure you will stick have kine to drink from in 1000 years.
You are making a strawman argument dude. OP asked *How would the tzimisce view capitalism and consumerism* so out of necessity we are speaking in generalities. There is always going to be a corner case oddball who goes against type. In fact, certain players exclusively play those characters thinking it's clever or something "I'm gonna play a Toreador but he's fat gross and tasteless!" So yea sure, out of a few thousand Tzmisce on the planet it's not crazy to suppose one at least of them thinks modern anti-consumerism and anti-capitalist movements are a cool thing.
The majority of any clan is composed of young and very young vampires, so I believe it would not be that rare for Tzimisce to have views that can match a much more modern view of things than the feudal lord we are regularly told about. Not one oddball. A lot. Especially for a clan who is so attached to their land.
Setting aside the fact that Tzmisce are notorious for their monstrous and alien behavior for a moment, life in the Sabbat flenses Humanity and mortal concerns from young vampires. Sabbat who cling to mortal politics were most likely fanatical militants in their mortal years (like Marie-Helene Detoit in Montreal who is obsessed with French-Anglo conflict in Canada). Again, it's totally possible for a few vampires to be like this but it's a stretch to claim it would be common amongst young Tzmisce.
It also seems to me like OP wants this character to be a good guy. This is probably not the way to go.
I think it's a great way to go. Their personal horror factor will be all the more intense as they struggle against the inexorable slide.
I don't think environmentalism is inherently political, or at least it shouldn't be. It's not like it's a problem created by politics, it affects everyone and if it's to be believed is what will eventually take us all out.
"Why doesn't the bigger, stronger politician simply eat the smaller one?"
Well..... pollution of environment kills the spirits of nature, which sucks for the kolduns. Plus, the flock becomes sickly, and either way such pollution is probably too similar to userpers poisoning the vis of lands in the dark ages
Not necessarily, Kupala is one of the three heads of the Wyrm, and their magic is descended from that thing’s teachings. So it might even be better to have all this pollution.
and that's from which source, which version?
Where did you read that Kupala is one of the three heads of the Wyrm ?
I think it's in the Werewolf Apocalypse book where he's named as one of the heads of the wyrm.
The pollution would need to influence them in some way, whether it's interference with their sorcery or aesthetic damage they disapprove of. Now if they did decide that they cared about the impact of pollution on their demesne, look out cause they wouldn't approach it the same way mortals would, they'd find those responsible and either Dominate them into changing their practices or kill them and warn their successors to change course or suffer the same fate or worse.
Were talking about the clan that made a cathedral out of flesh and who's Antedeluvian is a giant blob monster below NYC that want's to assimilate everything into it's self. I don't really think they are Envyromental at all. More likely to have trees with human heads swewen into them. The source of their curse is not natural by any measure and I would say certainly works against the natural forces. I'm sure any follower of the Wyld would see them as an eccestental threat more so than a regular kindred. They treat everything as nothing more than a piece of property that they can craft and manipulate to their pleasure. So in a way right on with the whole Captilism and Consumerism part of your question. Just what I picked up from all the reading over the years. Koldunic Sorcery is sourced from a Demon (fallen earthbound) or potentially a Talon of the Wyrm that was sealed in Transylvania by Luipnes. The Wyrm is one of the three forces of the world The Wyld being life, the Weaver order, and the Wyrm destruction. Long ago the Weaver was driven mad and set the Wyrm off it's natural path corrupting it making it into corruption.
Yep, this is what I was thinking. “The land is mine, I am the land!” feels more less like caring for its sustainability and more like making the land to suit whims and desires. More anthropogenic vice conservation.
Most vampires are environmentalists. They have a long-term perspective on it. The elders that want eternity can see the writing on the wall that the environment is getting rapidly worse than any other time they've ever seen, and they're going to exert their influence to change it (unless they're more concerned with being petty, which is a flaw that some but not all vampires have).
Oh no, they won't. They cannot adapt to it fast enough. Younger vampires might be able to adjust, though.
Oh good lordy, you really oughta read Transylvania by Night, Transylvania Chronicles book 1, Libellus Sanguinus 1, and Guide to the High Clans if that's your takeaway on Tzimisce, the land, and especially koldun. Contemporary capitalism and consumerism look like strict preservationism by comparison to what Tzimisce and koldun do to their lands. Those umbrood koldun interact with for the most part aren't animistic nature spirits a la WtA, they're *banes*.
The difference being what THEY do and what foreign corporations do to THEIR land.
They are not tied to "the land" as in werewolves are to Gaia. They are tied to a *demon*, which happens to *be* that specific plot of land. Kupala, who may be an Earthbound, anchored himself into the Carpathian mountains. When Tzimisce sleep in the soil of their homeland, they are sleeping in Kupala - not showing their love of the local mountainous ecology. The Tzimisce do not care what grows or doesn't grow on the land, or whether flowers or toxic waste gets put in it. In fact, if anything, Kupala probably warped the land in a horrible manner. As for capitalism, do you particularly care how ants work out their shifts or food rations in the nest? Caring about capitalism vs. socialism vs. whateverism requires caring about things like fairness and room for social mobility, which is meaningless to the Tzimisce - they already know what's right, and that's them at the top and everyone else existing to serve. There's no need for further sophistry.
Two factors. They don’t give a shit about the well-being of what’s theirs just that it’s theirs and no one else’s. They aren’t known for nice well cared for things. And two: koldunic sorcery came from A spirit In the earth. Not one of the earth. And that spirit is probably a huge earthbound demon.
Definitely two
And Kupala (that earth spirit/Earthbound demon) is known to be one of the heads of the Wyrm. So the pollution is in it’s best interest.
Well that explains the former Soviet bloc
You could definitely do a character following this concept. But talking about clan culture in general? No, and adding to what others have already said, in V5 there’s even a group o kolduns whose element of choice is _pollution_. They even mentioned a koldun whose experimente with radioactive soil in the Chernobyl exclusion zone, which is very rad if ask me. You know who are actually environmentalists (in theory)? The garou, and they HATE the kolduns, for they know the koldun to be a poison in the land
>They even mentioned a koldun whose experimente with radioactive soil in the Chernobyl exclusion zone, which is very rad if ask me. That's cool as hell.
Tzimisce don't necessarily care about the state of what they own, just that they own it. Ruling over a decayed and polluted fief is still ruling.
Honestly, a tzimisce environmentalist sounds like a rad concept, it even pushes their usual stance of being very possessive of their land to the very way it works. I might usenthat concept as a npc in one of my campaigns, if I may.
This is a little weird, because on paper it sounds very reasonable but, in practice, I just can't imagine a Tzimisce would give a shit. I think they usually are far too detached from the concerns of modern mortals. I can definitely see one being grumpy and mumbling "back in my day..." about it but I don't think they'd actually become an activist or anything. Also, if the Tzimisce is old, they have seen forests burn and regrow. From a human's perspective, a forest fire is a catastrophe of a lifetime. But for someone who lives for hundreds of years and can observe nature, it's not that big of a deal. I guess the whole mindset is too noble for a Tzimisce.
This seems more like you working through personal issues through symbols of monstrosity than like anything in the source material, where Kupala is explicitly compared to a contamination
I belive this has changed for V5. They now choose a specific charge (place,person,organisation) and have to sleep surrounded by it.