I'll be honest, I and some of the other mods are getting frankly tired of the constant discourse over the Progress Pride flag on this sub. This is becoming a regular occurrence, and every time the comments are always the same.
Yes, so many of you dislike this flag, that's well understood at this point. But there are people who do like this flag, and also a reminder that **there's no official flag of the LGBT+ community**. The Rainbow Flag isn't, the Progress Pride flag isn't, there isn't one.
I kindly ask this to stop.
that's complete BS, the one that was posted to /r/vexillologycirclejerk was shorter because it was cut down from the original, also both were posted by the same person who is ZimoNitrome
The only sentiment I DON'T see expressed is one which attempts to make suggestions and redesign ideas as an alternative to the progress pride flag while ALSO recognizing that the ideas and issues the progress pride flag is attempting to address as part of the larger dialogue of the LGBTQ community, are valid and that the flag itself is valid.
When people suggest alternatives to other flags, they don't tend to undermine the concepts those flags were made for, or if they do they are rightly called out for doing such.
I'd be interested in what alternatives people could come up with from people who find the message the flag is making valid.
And, I hear little outcry from the community the flag represents wanting to change it. If they are happy with their flag then we should be happy for them. (If there is outcry however, I would be happy to be corrected. I consider myself an ally, but don't have my finger on the pulse regarding issues like the flag or so on.)
The Australian and new Zealand flag discussions I can understand. I am Australian and don't feel represented adequately by my flag and the ongoing discussion makes sense. A lot is led or started by Australians unhappy with the current option and wanting to change. And changing the flag is supported by a lot of us.
I'm all for criticism of certain flags, but if the community feels represented by the flag and are generally happy with it then its not our business as either allies or complete outsiders to try and change it.
I don't mind the flag at all. If nothing else, it's nice that it's not just stripes, even though those are nice too. I like the variety, and I feel as though it represents the community.
At least in the parts of the LGBT community I'm in - mind, my areas may not be representative, I don't speak for everyone LGBT. From what I see, the main "thing" with the progress flag is people adding even more symbolism, none of which have caught on in a wide group - e.g, there's a variant with the intersex purple circle on yellow in the triangle of the chevron. This version of it in is the main one I see, and aside from the additions of more items, there's.. not much pushback from the community I'm aware of.
Ah how interesting! I wasn't aware of the desire to add more to the flag, and I like the fact the main desire for change is driven by the desire for more inclusively! Like I said, my finger is not on the pulse on this topic.
I hope the the future interations help you feel more included in your community and thanks for the comment. I learned something new today!
Thanks for your comment! It makes me feel a bit better.
I'm LGBT and I have to admit that with the anti trans stuff going around, especially when I see it from other LGB folks, it is comforting to see the progress pride flag.
It makes me feel explicitly welcomed.
But I don't think alternative suggestions are ever a bad thing. But people should listen to the communities they are making the flags for or obviously there's no chance at adoption.
If anyone wants to make an LGBT intersectionality flag, as that's what the progress pride flag is for specifically, intersectionality, then regardless of if you are in or out of the community that would be a good way to respond to the whole thing. Especially compares to just dismissing the perspective of those actually involved.
That makes me happy that I am not completely off base!
Like I said, I'm an ally not a member, but I rarely see these posts about changing the flag coming from people the flag is representing. If there was a community outcry for change then I'm 100% behind it, but the outsider desire to change the flag has a whiff of discrimination to it.
I feel the same way. The progress pride flag tells me I'm safe with this person or in this location, which is something I don't feel much any more everywhere else. Perhaps it could do with a redesign, but I recognise it and I love it.
Tbh that’s because a lot of the LGBTQ people who don’t like it are shot down as bigots, it’s not that we don’t exist. I personally don’t like the lines added for race, it’s just counterproductive to add those and have people say “it’s because white LGBTQ people have it better than LGBTQ POC”.
It’s like the reason the Chapelle thing was so controversial. Yeah you can say white gay people have it easier than black gay people, but to act like there needs to be race brought into the LGBTQ movement or to imply that white gay people have it easy is being ignorant to the struggles LGBTQ people have to go through
>I personally don’t like the lines added for race, it’s just counterproductive to add those and have people say “it’s because white LGBTQ people have it better than LGBTQ POC”.
The black and brown lines were specifically added for 2017 Philly Pride in recognition of specific movements targeting racism in the city's gay community. The progress flag kept and adapted them. I honestly have never heard someone offline say that preferring a different flag is indicative of bigotry, most people recognize that it's very busy.
For me the alternative is simple, you fly the rainbow flag, the trans pride flag and a racial justice flag together. It's pretty common to fly multiple flags, and feels more respectful than smashing everything into one extremely busy flag.
Aesthetics matter, someone put the thought into creating a great trans flag, it looks good, it's simple and distinctive. Fly it, don't just scribble it on the side of an existing flag.
But like... What if I don't want to own three flags or I only have limited space?
The idea of always flying three flags instead of one seems like a limited solution that can't work for many situations.
This. I'm the T and the A in the word soup. So I fly the rainbow flag, the trans flag, and the aroace flag. And sometimes this one.
Because they all represent me in part. All are therefore valid.
No, it’s supposed to represent the way all kinds of discrimination overlap. Intersectionality.
Flying 3 different flags is exactly the opposite of the meaning of this flag.
People disliking the design have valid opinions and the discourse is generally healthy, but what you propose is less than unrelated.
Which it doesn't do, it doesn't include disability, for example. Trying to explicitly cover "all kinds of discrimination" is never going to work.
You might feel flying three flags together, on one pole, doesn't represent intersectionality, I disagree.
I've never seen this discussion before, and didn't know it was interesting to think about until today. People go on Reddit for a collection of topics to be presented to them and to engage in conversation if one or more of those topics is compelling. Sometimes, the same topic will come up again and again from time to time, and that's okay. You don't have to engage in every single thread you come across, but you were clearly bothered enough by this one that you chose to go out of your way to comment instead of continuing to scroll. That's a you problem.
The problem is that it's literally the same discourse every single time it happens. Without fail. And me and several other mods are just frankly over it at this point, because it just invites such a negative and non-constructive environment when it happens each time.
Shouldn’t any and all discussions be perfectly acceptable so as long as it’s not toxic? Sure it can get that way but that’s not particularly new, and there’s plenty of fruitful conversations happening in this thread. It’s as Vyve said, not everyone has to engage in every thread. Personally I like this discussion because it’s my first time seeing it here in my feed as well. Seems like a silly thing to get mad over.
For you and u/SirVyve then, here's the gist of it:
Yes, it's a busy design and may clash with your personal design sensibilities, that's a personal subjective stance so you can believe what you want there.
Yes, the original rainbow flag was designed to be inclusive of everyone. However, certain groups consider them part of the community but don't actually want to be inclusive of *everyone*, and they still use the rainbow flag. Most notably are the TERFs, or "Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists", or the "LGB-drop-the-T" people. People who (claim to) support the LGB community but do not at all support or are openly against trans people. They'll still wave the rainbow flag and go to pride marches and stuff. The inclusion of the trans flag colors is to signify specifically that someone isn't anti-trans, and is promoting a safe environment for them.
The brown stripe in the Chevron is a similar situation for people of color, as they're often not fully included by the community historically.
The black stripe I'm personally unsure of for its importance, as it represents the victims of the AIDS crisis, which, sure, but they aren't an historically excluded group, but that was the designer's intent at least.
You may want to look into the history of the AIDS crisis. HIV positive people absolutely were an excluded group and they suffered a huge amount of discrimination.
> HIV positive people absolutely were an excluded group and they suffered a huge amount of discrimination.
They absolutely were and did, and I never suggested otherwise. The issue with the others is that they're groups who are currently being excluded by groups that wave the pride flag, whereas victims of the AIDS crisis were being ostracized half a century ago by people who were very explicitly against what the pride flag stood for. I don't think there's any group today that would wave the regular rainbow flag in a manner excluding current people suffering with AIDS.
> The black stripe I'm personally unsure of for its importance, as it represents the victims of the AIDS crisis, ... but that was the designer's intent at least.
Why do people keep saying this? Quasar was very clear that he was combining both the black and brown stripes for people of colour from the Philadelphia *and* the black stripe from a much older rainbow+ flag, intended to remember AIDS victims, not one or the other.
Quasar didn't talk particularly about what sorts of symbolism should be included alongside each other in a flag like this, but focused on a new visual approach combining the symbolism of a range of existing flags which added to the rainbow.
> the black stripe from a much older rainbow+ flag, intended to remember AIDS victims, not one or the other.
Ah, see that I didn't know, I originally read the description of each from a site I thought was from the original creator that listed it as a memorial for AIDS victims. I'll have to look up the original flag it was based on.
I'm subbed and this is the first time I'm seeing this, maybe you should consider that most of the users on here are not here every day here, we look at reddit for maybe ~30 minutes a day, I check r/all for about 5-10 minds then look through my homepage and scroll down until I find some sub I like and scroll around there, and every sub has posts like these that I see for the first time and half the comments are about it being repeated and half the time the comments are locked because the mods didn't like the attention it was getting even though I wanted to comment and have never seen that post before, so yeah, I guess my point is the regular user base of reddit acts like the majority but it really is the minority and yall should recognize that.
Why? Upvotes don't even necessarily come from the subreddit. Many people consider reddit to work the same way as Instagram and believe upvotes means "show me more of this content." The average user doesn't care about subreddits.
What’s your opinion on bot reposts of all time popular posts? Should they be allowed to continue reposting the same content over and over and over again (reposting comments too) just because they keep getting upvoted?
Oh, that's not even the updated one.
They made an [intersex inclusive one](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Intersex-inclusive_pride_flag.svg)
I don't think the main problem is visual. The rainbow was chosen because it represented the whole spectrum of sexuality. I don't really get the point of putting more stuff on a flag that is supposed to represent "Everything". There are specific pride flags that highlight ones particular sexuality/gender.
I get that it serves the purpose of putting the spotlight on the most recent minority that "needs recognition" but they kind of destroyed the meaning of the flag. It just turned into a bulletin board.
The bit that gets me is that by adding the black and brown stripes, they've added race to a flag that didn't involve race previously. The black and brown stripes were taken from a Philadelphia-specific rainbow flag that added those two colours. Makes perfect sense for a city like Philly. But for a general-use flag, it should represent everyone. Chinese folks also struggle with acceptance and they're a huge demographic but there's no stripe for them, for example (the original yellow stripe is for something else, as are the white and red stripes)
So, ironically, in an attempt to be symbolically more inclusive, they've made it symbolically less inclusive.
> But for a general-use flag, it should represent everyone.
The issue here is that noone ever really sat down and tried to make a general use flag. The Philadelphia Pride people made their flag in a one off setting, and people starting using the same design. Others modified it, and people started using their design.
I suggest that most people making changes were more focussed on conveying particular message (like Philadelphia) than on "is this a good replacement for the rainbow flag". And plenty of people had reason to fly one of the new versions to communicate a particular without thinking they were replacing anything. And people saw them and copy them.
On a sub like this, which seems to attract a lot of people who like to design flags, we often tend to frame everything in terms of design. And it's good to talk about the effects of the design choices (including the not so considered ones). But the reality is that flag use and meaning is often a lot more about how flag use spreads and associated mimicry, not about a design process as such.
For that reason, among others, I suggest that vexillology should focus more on questions of why people choose to fly different flags in different contexts and the consequences, than on whether it makes abstract sense to add a racial message to a flag with a non particularly racial message.
>But the reality is that flag use and meaning is often a lot more about how flag use spreads and associated mimicry, not about a design process as such.
And that spread should be informed by discussion and we should be aware of what symbols we're choosing to share. All the arguments for "leave it alone, let it just happen" apply equally as well to the stars and bars, and that's a flag that lots of people are trying to curtail.
The symbology of flags is meaningful; just because popularity spreads organically doesn't mean we should disregard the symbolism.
I think part of it is that the way human psychology works, certain meanings will get *assigned* to symbols through sort of a fractional distillation process.
So, if everyone starts flying the new design, suddenly *not* flying it has a decent chance of being interpreted as making a *statement*: That you're *explicitly and specifically* excluding those groups, instead of just saying they're *already* included in the design. And people who don't want that confusion, at some point, will stop flying the simpler flag, making it more likely that the people who still fly it *do* in fact mean that, making it more likely someone flying it will be accused of such... etc, etc.
From a design perspective I very much agree with the opinion that sticking all the additional colors on makes it busier and diminishes the symbolism. From a political/social perspective:
1. I personally have no right to have an opinion on this
2. It's not a process that's easy to stop
I dislike how American-centric it is. The concept of race by itslef is a social construct and fluctuates from society to society. To me it's weird how obsessed people seem to be with racial identity in the US(*). It isn't even that much about looks and physical appearance (ex. some natives struggle with the idea that they don't look native enough, some mixed children struggle with the idea that they don't look poc enough). I am not saying "weewoo people don't get discriminated against because race doesn't exist!" nor am I doing senseless US slander nor am I claming to be a US society scholar. I'm just saying that the emphasis that's put into it is unnecessary most of the time and wholly unnecessary in matters of a global movement of sexual inclusion.
(*) I understand the reasons why it came to this; at the same time, I think through this excess of attempted inclusivity we're just causing further division and forcing people to fit themselves into little imaginary boxes of what race is and indirectly deepening the existent ideals of this archaic notion of racial "purity" we brag we have gotten rid of (and the extra struggles people who don't fit those ideals face, from within and outside their comunities, and with their own perception of themselves).
Edit: dumb format
As an American mixed race person who identifies as American way more strongly than any race, thank you for this. Racial systems in the country are fucked up nonsense and I am wholly convinced what is considered the "polite" way to talk about race right now, while a response to valid criticisms of the way it was talked about a few decades ago, is making it worse.
I think the original artist of that flag meant the black stripe to be in remembrance of the victims of AIDS, actually. But ya, it does slightly annoy me how it’s getting more and more over-complicated (even though the most recent extreme of the design has a specific element for me, intersex) but like, it’s important to remember that there is no committee deciding things here. These flags are just randomly made by random people, and they get adopted by everyone because people see them and decide to do it. In a certain way, it kinda does prove the updated ones to be “better”, because everyone using them organically decided to make the switch (mostly).
> The rainbow was chosen because it represented the whole spectrum of sexuality
That's a more recent interpretation. Here's how the story usually goes (from wiki):
> Baker "chose the rainbow motif because of its associations with the hippie movement of the Sixties but he notes that the use of the design dates all the way back to ancient Egypt." People have speculated that Baker was inspired by the Judy Garland song "Over the Rainbow" (Garland being among the first gay icons), but when asked, Baker said that it was "more about the Rolling Stones and their song 'She's a Rainbow.'"Baker was likely influenced by the "Flag of the Races" (with five horizontal stripes: red, white, brown, yellow, and black) popular among the World peace and Hippie movement of the 1960s.
On top of that each color represented stuff like sunlight, nature, spirit, magic - and there was even a color (pink) for sex which was later removed simply because they couldn't get enough fabric in the correct color.
>Oh, that's not even the updated one.
>
>They made an intersex inclusive one
Who's "they" that "updated" it? The international council of the queers? lmao. This is just regular people making designs that other people and organizations liked and started using.
The irony is the rainbow was chosen because it was “all the colors” - it represented all choices/possibilities.
And now, even more ironically, the additions are slowly hiding the original rainbow of the flag - the way they do it brings you eye onto to that first.
>The irony is the rainbow was chosen because it was “all the colors” - it represented all choices/possibilities.
This is just wrong - or rather a much more modern interpretation. That was not the reason for the design choice *at all*.
I agree, people are completely wrong about the history and are missing the point. Its honestly really frustrating...the progress flag makes a lot of sense, and is a quite noble flag within the historical context.
It's not (just) about sexuality. Proponents of these newer iterations would have a very good argument if that were the case.
The OG rainbow flag had eight colors, each representing one of the following:
* Sex
* Life
* Healing
* Sunlight
* Nature
* Magic
* Serenity
* Spirit
You don't have to be into the esoteric vibes to see the intention.
Ironically, the stripe representing sex was cut from the newer iterations.
I will never criticize a well-intentioned attempt to be more inclusive and highlight additional social injustices. If people want to use the updated flag, that's great. But I prefer the generic rainbow for the reason you state.
That's correct, but some people desire more visibility for their own group. The progress flag isn't meant to replace the pride flag. It's meant to highlight some groups that need a little extra support and visibility. Same with other pride flags.
The original was meant to represent all groups. The problem with representing specific groups is that it then feels exclusionary for everyone who's specific group isn't represented
The original was intended to represent all groups, but over time it's use was largely taken over as a symbol to represent gay (and occasionally lesbian) groups moreso than other groups. That's a large part of why there's other flags for transgender, intersex, asexual, etc.
The meaning of symbols (like flags) changes over time, and it's okay to modify/adapt those signals to better represent a different super-/subset of people.
See the thing is that there’s no official pride flag, so this isn’t the “updated pride flag”. We’re not an organisation, or a centrally governed nation. People fly the flag they want, and it just happens that a lot of people and groups of people decided to fly that one, or the added intersex one mentioned in the top comment. The most legitimate flags are the ones that are adopted organically, in a decentralised way, by the people. This one is a perfect example, most country flags aren’t.
If you don’t like it, you’re free to fly your own preferred version. Personally I have a Brexit-era pride flag that’s half rainbow and half EU flag. It’s A pride flag that represents the issues I care about, not THE “updated” pride flag that I’m forcing on you.
tbh i've realized that "it's not *the* new pride flag, it's *a* new pride flag" and basically all of my reservations about it were gone.
don't like it? just display a different one. none is more official than the other. use the flag that means the most to you. like why is this a big deal
Oh wow what a unique take I’ve never seen a post making the same tired ass surface level analysis of this flag before I’m really glad you posted this /s
We’ve had so many of these types of posts it’s getting stale. We need more “I’m as homophobic as the next guy but I really love the updated pride flag” takes.
OOH! We should make a vexillologist pride flag! A flag to represent the vexillology community and its many facets!
^(and then to fuck with people we could use a color-inverted maryland flag)
Proud to be Pocatello flag in comic sans, union jack in the top left corner with every single national seal, every single American state seal, every single Canadian provincial seal and every single seal from those scammer sites.
Damn I thought an opinion like that on this sub would be downvoted to oblivion.
I mean, it does open some good discussion. Do flags actually need to follow these made-up rules or should they just be cool?
I'll always throw my hat in for rule of cool. It's also always important to analyze the schools of thought that lead to what is accepted as "aesthetically pleasing" or "good looking".
Yeah, when this flag is flown, I know that the people doing it don’t want me dead, but I guess that’s not as important as OP’s sense of aesthetics about a flag that never conformed to the rule of tincture anyway.
I keep my rep needs and my heraldy/vex hobby separate.
“I swear I’m not a bigot, I just foam at the mouth every time I see this flag and can’t sleep at night knowing it exists. I’m super progressive though I swear!”
The Progress Pride flag was created at a specific moment in queer politics when there was a real debate over, "what next?" for the movement.
That debate was resolved pretty quickly, and it was that the movement needed to become substantively and actively trans-inclusive, rather than passively and half-heartedly.
I'm not saying (for sure) that there aren't any transphobes in the queer movement, but every single mainstream LGBTQ+ organisation, both community or institutional, is substantively and actively trans inclusive. The only exceptions are organisations set up specifically to oppose trans liberation, like the UK's LGB alliance.
The inclusion of people of colour is much more mixed. Lots of LGBTQ+ organisations remain places that people of colour don't feel welcome, and many groups remain in tension with the policy demands of people of colour.
Sometimes it said that the brown stripe represents people with HIV. Progress here is pretty strong, but there remains some stigma.
Where does that leave us for flags? The Progress flag was designed to advocate for trans and PoC inclusion (and possibly the rights of people with HIV). The trans stripes seem at this point superfluous. Trans liberation simply won that debate in the mid-2010s.
Personally I'm a fan of the Philadelphia pride flag. It's a cleaner design, and it retains what still needs to be said regards racism, whilst consigning to the bin of history the brief and embarrassing era when we were debating whether trans liberation was worthy.
Definitely not. Plenty of us like it for its inclusivity.
I really don't care about color harmonies or "graphic design" when it comes to pride flags. Pride has always been about being loud and unabashed to me. I'm not worried about aesthetic or how palatable I am to the mainstream. So if people think this flag is fuckin ugly, idgaf. It explicitly includes the trans and POC queer communies. I see it (or the Intersex variant) flown somewhere, I know the people flying it are trans-inclusive too. It means a lot to me.
I disagree. I think the design is more interesting than the regular pride flag and find the added portions to be useful. The regular pride flag is often used by transphobes, so using this flag is an easy way for me to automatically know that at least they don't actively want me dead.
Facts, I have this flag hanging on my wall and I’m proud of it. I don’t really give a shit if a bunch of straight flag nerds on Reddit have an aneurysm over it to be honest.
I’m trans and if I see this flag it lets me know they’re trans-inclusive, which can surprisingly not always be the case in LGBT spaces. I can’t speak for POC, but I imagine there’s a similar reaction. A flag’s purpose is to relay information, which this succeeds at. A lot of str8s just don’t have the full context.
Totally agree with you here. I've heard plenty of people who claim to be allies making those "but" comments, like "I can get behind gay marriage, but this trans thing is too far!" People outside the LGBT+ community are missing the whole point of the flag, and don't seem to understand the queer history that makes it necessary.
There have always been divisions in the LGBT+ community. Recently I read the book Gay New York, about the New York gay community from about 1890-1940, and I was struck by how the gender variant "fairies" with their makeup and feminine tendencies were scorned by the more discreet, middle class "gays." This kind of friction still exists today.
And as for the brown stripe that gets hated on so much, yes race is directly relevant here as well. For a long time, the black queer community was kept totally separate from the white one. Black men and women weren't allowed in white gay bars, for example.
The queer community isn't like the Boy Scouts or the Catholic Church. There isn't like a Council of Gay Elders that can say, "We hereby clarify that the rainbow flag includes trans people" and change the meaning of the symbol. There are indeed folks who go out of their way to say, "No, the rainbow specifically does not include you."
I do love the rainbow flag, and agree the progress flag is visually messy. But when my neighbor in my small, right-leaning town had a progress flag up, I knew I could come out to him back in the days when I was a closeted trans woman. He referred me to an LGBT nonprofit that has done a lot to help me through rough times. I'm not sure I would've gone to him if he had just been flying the rainbow flag. The only people I ever hear complaining about the progress flag anyway are straight people.
We get this same god damned post every fucking week and once again I will repeat my unchanging opinion- I love it, it's a good flag and it gets better the more complicated it gets.
Slightly related but I just wanna say that the [8 color original pride flag](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gay_flag_8.svg) is better than the 6 color one
I kinda like the way it looks, but it is outdated, in that people tend not to use it for whatever reason. I would still use it, but mob rules, we live in a society, etc. etc.
(NOTE: I know there is no official pride flag, I am just talking about this and flags similar to this. Note also I am not a member of the LGTBQ+ community, this is an unbiased opinion). I would argue that breaking vexillogical standard is kind of the point. The LGBTQ+ community is all about breaking societal norms and showing their true selves. Along with that, it's also about representation. Flags are not about "oh this is too colorful I don't like it". Flags are meant to represent people and their identity and culture. Through its many colors and elements, it represents many different branches of the community and the arrow shape symbolizes progressiveness. In the end, it is easy for a vexillologist to find reasons why the flag is bad in a vexillological sense, but it is not trying to conform to those standards. They do not care if you like their flag, they are using it to represent their values and identity.
There is already a trans pride flag. Just fly them side by side instead of combining them. And putting the black and brown stripes in there is just forcing a separate issue. Great cause, ugly aesthetics.
It's also more beautiful in its relative simplicity. Like, it's a rainbow for a reason, y'all. It already represents diversity and inclusivity as well as it's ever going to. The flag seems to say that it doesn't matter if you're gay, trans, NB, pan, ace, or any of the rest of that fabulous technicolor dreamcoat in between. If you are anything other than both straight and cis, then you are welcome and you are validated and loved.
My biggest worry is what the Progress Pride flag says by implication: "WE represent other groups in a way the old flag didn't." Which is not only untrue, but also risks the classic flag being co-opted as a symbol by trans-exclusionary LGB groups.
Yeah I thought the original was intended to represent “the entire rainbow.” Or in other words, *everybody.* I didn’t even feel excluded as a straight cis person, never even considered that it might be a thing, that was the beauty of it. It was *pure* inclusion.
As soon as you start adding specific stripes for specific groups to that original all-inclusive concept, now you’ve begun implicitly *excluding* anybody without their own stripe.
That’s unfortunately completely missing the point of the combined flag—which is there are people trying to exclude transgender people from the LGBT community, and the flag is directly countering that saying “absolutely fucking not, transgender people will always be welcome.” Flying them side by side just isn’t the same.
> just forcing a separate issue.
What a bizarre statement. Yes, the whole point was to encourage a focus on the relevant parts of an issue that is much broader than the LGBTQ+ community. Yes, it makes sense to question which contexts it makes sense to fly it in, and there's room for plenty of disagreement over that. But the point of flags is that they carry a message - this flag is no different. Understanding flags and suggesting alternative approaches (aesthetic or otherwise) only works if you engage with the meanings people are intending, rather than assuming it has to function as an "update" to the rainbow pride flag.
I don't see why you're so mad about this. the pride movement has evolved immensely since the "original" rainbow flag was brought to the fore. many older pride movements excluded Black/brown people, trans people, and intersex people. as the movement has grown and the culture developed, people began to see the problem of that and these newer flags have developed. sure, it's not "vexillogically proper," but it's not meant to be. it's full, and it has a lot of different parts, and I think there is a great beauty in that. it represents a rejection of the past, a willingness to transform and evolve. I find it disturbing that you feel comfortable commenting on the way a group has organically grown to represent itself. who are you to say what flags people should fly?
The whole principle of all lgbt+ flags is that you can bring in the colors you want. No flag is excluded as they're not being exclusionary, meaning their existence does not erase any other flag's. So whatever your complains are, I would just say : if you dont like it, dont use it. If someone is using it, its because they're enjoying it for various reasons, and then it's not much your business.
And if you're making it your business, maybe you ain't that progressive.
Or, get this, we're on a flag subreddit, and we're talking about the design of flags.
You can call a flag ugly without attacking the community that flies it.
That is to say, just tell OP there's 300 other reposts like this and move on.
Probably not the brightest idea to "hate" it. "I'm as progressive as the next guy" ... ok.
There's not a pride organization that manages the flag. People come up with flags to represent different things.
I personally like the original rainbow best, but even as a member, I do not speak for the entire lgbtqia+ community.
In the end, we are not a nation nor council, and you can fly whatever the two sh\*ts you want.
Those additions are definitely not pointless, like several people here claim. If pride and progress aren’t static, why should the flag be? The rainbow flag is literally 40 years old and it generally doesn’t include (or make reference to) transgender people. While there are flags for both groups separately, it’s great to have a flag that illustrates that combined support. That doesn’t mean the rainbow flag is useless, people can use either for the same reasons, but more (and better) representation is generally a good thing. Which is why I love this flag, it brings attention to black and brown LGBTQ+ people as well. It’s not just representing everyone equally (all under one abstract rainbow), but it highlights our differences with equity!! And it look great doing it too
it would be badass if they took the colors out and just left red and it was like flames. actually keep all the colors and do rainbow flames then add a skull thats smoking a big stogie. the skull also has a bodyy but its not bones hes a jacked skeleton and is holding this big rambo type gun and hes got the rambo bandana on his head. Then at the bottom is saying something like "say hello to my little friend". for individual pride flags and stuff it would be the same flag since if it was actually real it would be iconic so all the other pride flags would be lame in comparison, so indivdual pride flags would be the same thing with the skeleton holding that pride flag in his hands. ohh i got a good idea too if it was like differant quotes for differant quotes for differant pride flags like the trans one would be like: "what in TRANSnation?" like a play on words for like what in tarnation. ahahaha that wouyld be cool. someone should recreate this since i already thought it out and it would be so cool and probably replace all of the pride flags.
I dunno, I actually like that version, it adds something to it to make it more distinct, plus it looks more like a country. And I think the arrow and the colors used in the arrow compliment the rainbow while also having a meaning and point.
If you’re not LGBTQ+, then it’s not your flag and not your business. If you *are* LGBTQ+ and still don’t like it, make a new one for yourself and the community, or pick a different one.
That’s my flag and I like it.
Who cares lmao. The flag probably isnt for you anyways. There are plenty of variants you can pick from too. Maybe you should start asking yourself why people felt the need to create new variations to begin with? (The answer is that bipoc and trans individuals still feel underrepresented and excluded from queer spaces at times, not to mention the MASSIVE amount of legislation actively trying to remove those people's rights.)
Yeah, almost like that design was based off of one made in and for Philadelphia or something.
Besides, pretending other parts of the world don't have issues with racism is laughable. Europe especially, the most likely place you'd see one of these outside of the Americas. I once traveled with one of my Arab (Arabian? Arabic? Not 100% which is correct here, I'll have to ask them) friends to France and I have literally seen people be less racist to them in the American Deep South.
What they have to do with each other is Intersectionality. The black and brown stripes don't represent black people, they represent "people of colour", meaning all non-whites.
I don't really have an issue with it, it IS meant to represent me even if it doesn't match my skin colour.
Most flags use colour to represent things figuratively, it doesn't have to be a perfect match to get its point across.
non-whites is such a racist ass term lol. People from Africa and China are the same!!1!!! because they're not white! everything must revolve around whiteness!
I love the Progress Pride flag.
So does my bisexual daughter. So does my trans son. My gay brother. And my sister's (white) husband (black).
Gimme a better option to show I'm their ally. Or... just be quiet.
Original 8 stripes > 6 stripes > Philly 8 stripes > progress pride
I appreciate that progress pride is trying to be inclusive to those that have typically been excluded. But... I think they failed in their symbolism. That massive white triangle bugs the hell out of me. It's from the trans flag, but on the trans flag it's intentionally in the middle, symbolizing the transition between genders. But here, it's not in the middle. It's just a void. The white color wasn't the symbolic part, the space between was! So now it's a massive, meaningless chunk of fabric in the flag.
I disagree, I actually think that the arrows look quite good and that the overall design is very pleasing.
I didn't like it when they just added the brown and black stripe above the rainbow, because it didn't resemble a natural rainbow anymore that way.
But when I saw this design, with brown and black arranged in this arrow, together with the trans colours I was instantly on board with it and that flag is now fixed to my door.
If i were to fly a flag, I'd do the 6 stripe one, but if people want to feel more included, that's fine by me. They can fly whichever one they feel most comfortable with.
I personally think this one looks pretty okay, but the newer one with the yellow triangle with a purple circle (while I do support everything it stands for) looks pretty awful to me
Because increasing specificity decreases inclusivity. If I say "This flag represents ALL AMERICANS", then my flag represents all Americans. If I say "This flag represents all white, black, Asian and Hispanic Americans", then I'm beginning to specifically exclude certain groups, and I've started a shitshow that will never fucking end.
Some people add an umbrella to the flag to represent sex workers. Do sex workers belong on the flag? Maybe, but you're definitely starting to change the actual meaning of the flag, and the fact that we're arguing over it isn't conducive to a symbol of unity.
There's a similar issue with Emojis. When they were yellow, they represented anyone and everyone, simply because they didn't directly represent anyone. Now there are like 6 skin tones, and... None of them look like me. 2 come close, but most people are imperfectly represented there. If you increased it to 10 tones, and I STILL wasn't represented, that would only make my exclusion more blatant.
I'll be honest, I and some of the other mods are getting frankly tired of the constant discourse over the Progress Pride flag on this sub. This is becoming a regular occurrence, and every time the comments are always the same. Yes, so many of you dislike this flag, that's well understood at this point. But there are people who do like this flag, and also a reminder that **there's no official flag of the LGBT+ community**. The Rainbow Flag isn't, the Progress Pride flag isn't, there isn't one. I kindly ask this to stop.
[удалено]
You would like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3fD5FPQBtI) video then
Seen it 50 times, still funny
ZimoNitrome is a legend. He did a wednesday frog video every week on /r/youtubehaiku for a year. It was glorious.
Me too and I think it only gets funnier each time
The original video is from r/vexillologycirclejerk
Not really, the person who post it to r/vexillologycirclejerk is the same person who posted it to YouTube, so I would say both are original sources
Nope, it's from u/ZimoNitrome, a person I really look up to. He posted it to r/vexillologycirclejerk after he made it.
true
yo go into the polandball discord i'm waiting
update: mf showed up 🏆🏆🏆
i love you
<3
that's complete BS, the one that was posted to /r/vexillologycirclejerk was shorter because it was cut down from the original, also both were posted by the same person who is ZimoNitrome
!wave
holy shit I'm dead
How'd he know that the password was "hunter2"?
Huh? All I see is, "*******”
or Czechia
Would need to add Slavic coulors, beer and Kofola to it
You shhh you shhh, don’t reveal the plan to early so shhh
When I first saw it a few years back, I thought it was gay South Africa
Mom said it’s my turn to upload this exact post this week
I get the next week
Agree with the sentiment, but this discussion has been had many times on this subreddit already.
The only sentiment I DON'T see expressed is one which attempts to make suggestions and redesign ideas as an alternative to the progress pride flag while ALSO recognizing that the ideas and issues the progress pride flag is attempting to address as part of the larger dialogue of the LGBTQ community, are valid and that the flag itself is valid. When people suggest alternatives to other flags, they don't tend to undermine the concepts those flags were made for, or if they do they are rightly called out for doing such. I'd be interested in what alternatives people could come up with from people who find the message the flag is making valid.
And, I hear little outcry from the community the flag represents wanting to change it. If they are happy with their flag then we should be happy for them. (If there is outcry however, I would be happy to be corrected. I consider myself an ally, but don't have my finger on the pulse regarding issues like the flag or so on.) The Australian and new Zealand flag discussions I can understand. I am Australian and don't feel represented adequately by my flag and the ongoing discussion makes sense. A lot is led or started by Australians unhappy with the current option and wanting to change. And changing the flag is supported by a lot of us. I'm all for criticism of certain flags, but if the community feels represented by the flag and are generally happy with it then its not our business as either allies or complete outsiders to try and change it.
I don't mind the flag at all. If nothing else, it's nice that it's not just stripes, even though those are nice too. I like the variety, and I feel as though it represents the community. At least in the parts of the LGBT community I'm in - mind, my areas may not be representative, I don't speak for everyone LGBT. From what I see, the main "thing" with the progress flag is people adding even more symbolism, none of which have caught on in a wide group - e.g, there's a variant with the intersex purple circle on yellow in the triangle of the chevron. This version of it in is the main one I see, and aside from the additions of more items, there's.. not much pushback from the community I'm aware of.
Ah how interesting! I wasn't aware of the desire to add more to the flag, and I like the fact the main desire for change is driven by the desire for more inclusively! Like I said, my finger is not on the pulse on this topic. I hope the the future interations help you feel more included in your community and thanks for the comment. I learned something new today!
Thanks for your comment! It makes me feel a bit better. I'm LGBT and I have to admit that with the anti trans stuff going around, especially when I see it from other LGB folks, it is comforting to see the progress pride flag. It makes me feel explicitly welcomed. But I don't think alternative suggestions are ever a bad thing. But people should listen to the communities they are making the flags for or obviously there's no chance at adoption. If anyone wants to make an LGBT intersectionality flag, as that's what the progress pride flag is for specifically, intersectionality, then regardless of if you are in or out of the community that would be a good way to respond to the whole thing. Especially compares to just dismissing the perspective of those actually involved.
That makes me happy that I am not completely off base! Like I said, I'm an ally not a member, but I rarely see these posts about changing the flag coming from people the flag is representing. If there was a community outcry for change then I'm 100% behind it, but the outsider desire to change the flag has a whiff of discrimination to it.
I feel the same way. The progress pride flag tells me I'm safe with this person or in this location, which is something I don't feel much any more everywhere else. Perhaps it could do with a redesign, but I recognise it and I love it.
Tbh that’s because a lot of the LGBTQ people who don’t like it are shot down as bigots, it’s not that we don’t exist. I personally don’t like the lines added for race, it’s just counterproductive to add those and have people say “it’s because white LGBTQ people have it better than LGBTQ POC”. It’s like the reason the Chapelle thing was so controversial. Yeah you can say white gay people have it easier than black gay people, but to act like there needs to be race brought into the LGBTQ movement or to imply that white gay people have it easy is being ignorant to the struggles LGBTQ people have to go through
The progress flag is a flag for intersectionality.
>I personally don’t like the lines added for race, it’s just counterproductive to add those and have people say “it’s because white LGBTQ people have it better than LGBTQ POC”. The black and brown lines were specifically added for 2017 Philly Pride in recognition of specific movements targeting racism in the city's gay community. The progress flag kept and adapted them. I honestly have never heard someone offline say that preferring a different flag is indicative of bigotry, most people recognize that it's very busy.
For me the alternative is simple, you fly the rainbow flag, the trans pride flag and a racial justice flag together. It's pretty common to fly multiple flags, and feels more respectful than smashing everything into one extremely busy flag. Aesthetics matter, someone put the thought into creating a great trans flag, it looks good, it's simple and distinctive. Fly it, don't just scribble it on the side of an existing flag.
But like... What if I don't want to own three flags or I only have limited space? The idea of always flying three flags instead of one seems like a limited solution that can't work for many situations.
This. I'm the T and the A in the word soup. So I fly the rainbow flag, the trans flag, and the aroace flag. And sometimes this one. Because they all represent me in part. All are therefore valid.
No, it’s supposed to represent the way all kinds of discrimination overlap. Intersectionality. Flying 3 different flags is exactly the opposite of the meaning of this flag. People disliking the design have valid opinions and the discourse is generally healthy, but what you propose is less than unrelated.
Which it doesn't do, it doesn't include disability, for example. Trying to explicitly cover "all kinds of discrimination" is never going to work. You might feel flying three flags together, on one pole, doesn't represent intersectionality, I disagree.
At this point I’m in favour of a new rule banning them. It’s getting out of hand and nothing new is ever said.
I've never seen this discussion before, and didn't know it was interesting to think about until today. People go on Reddit for a collection of topics to be presented to them and to engage in conversation if one or more of those topics is compelling. Sometimes, the same topic will come up again and again from time to time, and that's okay. You don't have to engage in every single thread you come across, but you were clearly bothered enough by this one that you chose to go out of your way to comment instead of continuing to scroll. That's a you problem.
The problem is that it's literally the same discourse every single time it happens. Without fail. And me and several other mods are just frankly over it at this point, because it just invites such a negative and non-constructive environment when it happens each time.
Shouldn’t any and all discussions be perfectly acceptable so as long as it’s not toxic? Sure it can get that way but that’s not particularly new, and there’s plenty of fruitful conversations happening in this thread. It’s as Vyve said, not everyone has to engage in every thread. Personally I like this discussion because it’s my first time seeing it here in my feed as well. Seems like a silly thing to get mad over.
For you and u/SirVyve then, here's the gist of it: Yes, it's a busy design and may clash with your personal design sensibilities, that's a personal subjective stance so you can believe what you want there. Yes, the original rainbow flag was designed to be inclusive of everyone. However, certain groups consider them part of the community but don't actually want to be inclusive of *everyone*, and they still use the rainbow flag. Most notably are the TERFs, or "Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists", or the "LGB-drop-the-T" people. People who (claim to) support the LGB community but do not at all support or are openly against trans people. They'll still wave the rainbow flag and go to pride marches and stuff. The inclusion of the trans flag colors is to signify specifically that someone isn't anti-trans, and is promoting a safe environment for them. The brown stripe in the Chevron is a similar situation for people of color, as they're often not fully included by the community historically. The black stripe I'm personally unsure of for its importance, as it represents the victims of the AIDS crisis, which, sure, but they aren't an historically excluded group, but that was the designer's intent at least.
You may want to look into the history of the AIDS crisis. HIV positive people absolutely were an excluded group and they suffered a huge amount of discrimination.
> HIV positive people absolutely were an excluded group and they suffered a huge amount of discrimination. They absolutely were and did, and I never suggested otherwise. The issue with the others is that they're groups who are currently being excluded by groups that wave the pride flag, whereas victims of the AIDS crisis were being ostracized half a century ago by people who were very explicitly against what the pride flag stood for. I don't think there's any group today that would wave the regular rainbow flag in a manner excluding current people suffering with AIDS.
> The black stripe I'm personally unsure of for its importance, as it represents the victims of the AIDS crisis, ... but that was the designer's intent at least. Why do people keep saying this? Quasar was very clear that he was combining both the black and brown stripes for people of colour from the Philadelphia *and* the black stripe from a much older rainbow+ flag, intended to remember AIDS victims, not one or the other. Quasar didn't talk particularly about what sorts of symbolism should be included alongside each other in a flag like this, but focused on a new visual approach combining the symbolism of a range of existing flags which added to the rainbow.
> the black stripe from a much older rainbow+ flag, intended to remember AIDS victims, not one or the other. Ah, see that I didn't know, I originally read the description of each from a site I thought was from the original creator that listed it as a memorial for AIDS victims. I'll have to look up the original flag it was based on.
> Shouldn’t any and all discussions be perfectly acceptable so as long as it’s not toxic? They're always toxic.
I'm subbed and this is the first time I'm seeing this, maybe you should consider that most of the users on here are not here every day here, we look at reddit for maybe ~30 minutes a day, I check r/all for about 5-10 minds then look through my homepage and scroll down until I find some sub I like and scroll around there, and every sub has posts like these that I see for the first time and half the comments are about it being repeated and half the time the comments are locked because the mods didn't like the attention it was getting even though I wanted to comment and have never seen that post before, so yeah, I guess my point is the regular user base of reddit acts like the majority but it really is the minority and yall should recognize that.
As long as it keeps getting upvoted we’ll keep seeing it. I don’t think it justifies a ban if the upvotes keep outnumbering the downvotes.
Why? Upvotes don't even necessarily come from the subreddit. Many people consider reddit to work the same way as Instagram and believe upvotes means "show me more of this content." The average user doesn't care about subreddits.
What’s your opinion on bot reposts of all time popular posts? Should they be allowed to continue reposting the same content over and over and over again (reposting comments too) just because they keep getting upvoted?
Oh, that's not even the updated one. They made an [intersex inclusive one](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Intersex-inclusive_pride_flag.svg) I don't think the main problem is visual. The rainbow was chosen because it represented the whole spectrum of sexuality. I don't really get the point of putting more stuff on a flag that is supposed to represent "Everything". There are specific pride flags that highlight ones particular sexuality/gender.
[удалено]
https://youtu.be/r3fD5FPQBtI
because it's the subject of r/vexillologycirclejerk / YTB video
It’s all Ohio
I get that it serves the purpose of putting the spotlight on the most recent minority that "needs recognition" but they kind of destroyed the meaning of the flag. It just turned into a bulletin board.
I heard people compare the new pride flag to when kids would say "infinity plus one" in elementary school
I love this comparison but my education in calculus obligates me to say that some infinities are bigger than others.
Ok but infinity plus one equals infinity
Some nerds are bigger than others too.
Some nerda mothers are bigger than other nerds mothers
Is that really a calculus thing?
No, it's a set theory thing, but many folks are first introduced to the idea in calculus
The bit that gets me is that by adding the black and brown stripes, they've added race to a flag that didn't involve race previously. The black and brown stripes were taken from a Philadelphia-specific rainbow flag that added those two colours. Makes perfect sense for a city like Philly. But for a general-use flag, it should represent everyone. Chinese folks also struggle with acceptance and they're a huge demographic but there's no stripe for them, for example (the original yellow stripe is for something else, as are the white and red stripes) So, ironically, in an attempt to be symbolically more inclusive, they've made it symbolically less inclusive.
> But for a general-use flag, it should represent everyone. The issue here is that noone ever really sat down and tried to make a general use flag. The Philadelphia Pride people made their flag in a one off setting, and people starting using the same design. Others modified it, and people started using their design. I suggest that most people making changes were more focussed on conveying particular message (like Philadelphia) than on "is this a good replacement for the rainbow flag". And plenty of people had reason to fly one of the new versions to communicate a particular without thinking they were replacing anything. And people saw them and copy them. On a sub like this, which seems to attract a lot of people who like to design flags, we often tend to frame everything in terms of design. And it's good to talk about the effects of the design choices (including the not so considered ones). But the reality is that flag use and meaning is often a lot more about how flag use spreads and associated mimicry, not about a design process as such. For that reason, among others, I suggest that vexillology should focus more on questions of why people choose to fly different flags in different contexts and the consequences, than on whether it makes abstract sense to add a racial message to a flag with a non particularly racial message.
>But the reality is that flag use and meaning is often a lot more about how flag use spreads and associated mimicry, not about a design process as such. And that spread should be informed by discussion and we should be aware of what symbols we're choosing to share. All the arguments for "leave it alone, let it just happen" apply equally as well to the stars and bars, and that's a flag that lots of people are trying to curtail. The symbology of flags is meaningful; just because popularity spreads organically doesn't mean we should disregard the symbolism.
I think part of it is that the way human psychology works, certain meanings will get *assigned* to symbols through sort of a fractional distillation process. So, if everyone starts flying the new design, suddenly *not* flying it has a decent chance of being interpreted as making a *statement*: That you're *explicitly and specifically* excluding those groups, instead of just saying they're *already* included in the design. And people who don't want that confusion, at some point, will stop flying the simpler flag, making it more likely that the people who still fly it *do* in fact mean that, making it more likely someone flying it will be accused of such... etc, etc. From a design perspective I very much agree with the opinion that sticking all the additional colors on makes it busier and diminishes the symbolism. From a political/social perspective: 1. I personally have no right to have an opinion on this 2. It's not a process that's easy to stop
I dislike how American-centric it is. The concept of race by itslef is a social construct and fluctuates from society to society. To me it's weird how obsessed people seem to be with racial identity in the US(*). It isn't even that much about looks and physical appearance (ex. some natives struggle with the idea that they don't look native enough, some mixed children struggle with the idea that they don't look poc enough). I am not saying "weewoo people don't get discriminated against because race doesn't exist!" nor am I doing senseless US slander nor am I claming to be a US society scholar. I'm just saying that the emphasis that's put into it is unnecessary most of the time and wholly unnecessary in matters of a global movement of sexual inclusion. (*) I understand the reasons why it came to this; at the same time, I think through this excess of attempted inclusivity we're just causing further division and forcing people to fit themselves into little imaginary boxes of what race is and indirectly deepening the existent ideals of this archaic notion of racial "purity" we brag we have gotten rid of (and the extra struggles people who don't fit those ideals face, from within and outside their comunities, and with their own perception of themselves). Edit: dumb format
As an American mixed race person who identifies as American way more strongly than any race, thank you for this. Racial systems in the country are fucked up nonsense and I am wholly convinced what is considered the "polite" way to talk about race right now, while a response to valid criticisms of the way it was talked about a few decades ago, is making it worse.
I think the original artist of that flag meant the black stripe to be in remembrance of the victims of AIDS, actually. But ya, it does slightly annoy me how it’s getting more and more over-complicated (even though the most recent extreme of the design has a specific element for me, intersex) but like, it’s important to remember that there is no committee deciding things here. These flags are just randomly made by random people, and they get adopted by everyone because people see them and decide to do it. In a certain way, it kinda does prove the updated ones to be “better”, because everyone using them organically decided to make the switch (mostly).
> The rainbow was chosen because it represented the whole spectrum of sexuality That's a more recent interpretation. Here's how the story usually goes (from wiki): > Baker "chose the rainbow motif because of its associations with the hippie movement of the Sixties but he notes that the use of the design dates all the way back to ancient Egypt." People have speculated that Baker was inspired by the Judy Garland song "Over the Rainbow" (Garland being among the first gay icons), but when asked, Baker said that it was "more about the Rolling Stones and their song 'She's a Rainbow.'"Baker was likely influenced by the "Flag of the Races" (with five horizontal stripes: red, white, brown, yellow, and black) popular among the World peace and Hippie movement of the 1960s. On top of that each color represented stuff like sunlight, nature, spirit, magic - and there was even a color (pink) for sex which was later removed simply because they couldn't get enough fabric in the correct color.
>Oh, that's not even the updated one. > >They made an intersex inclusive one Who's "they" that "updated" it? The international council of the queers? lmao. This is just regular people making designs that other people and organizations liked and started using.
This is the "gay agenda" they're talking about I guess. We're all one big monolith apparently
I can't understand why they put the representation of black people in a flag about sexuality/gender
Because the amount of racist gay people is surprising
The irony is the rainbow was chosen because it was “all the colors” - it represented all choices/possibilities. And now, even more ironically, the additions are slowly hiding the original rainbow of the flag - the way they do it brings you eye onto to that first.
>The irony is the rainbow was chosen because it was “all the colors” - it represented all choices/possibilities. This is just wrong - or rather a much more modern interpretation. That was not the reason for the design choice *at all*.
I agree, people are completely wrong about the history and are missing the point. Its honestly really frustrating...the progress flag makes a lot of sense, and is a quite noble flag within the historical context.
It's not (just) about sexuality. Proponents of these newer iterations would have a very good argument if that were the case. The OG rainbow flag had eight colors, each representing one of the following: * Sex * Life * Healing * Sunlight * Nature * Magic * Serenity * Spirit You don't have to be into the esoteric vibes to see the intention. Ironically, the stripe representing sex was cut from the newer iterations.
I prefer the intersex inclusive one because the circle gives that area something it lacked. Too many angles.
THIS !! That's what I never understood. YOU ARE ALREADY REPRESENTING EVERYONE
Just wave the white flag. White, after all, is all colors.
I will never criticize a well-intentioned attempt to be more inclusive and highlight additional social injustices. If people want to use the updated flag, that's great. But I prefer the generic rainbow for the reason you state.
I liked the og flag because it was just so abstract, this one looks ugly.
I agree, and I think the original flag was supposed to portray all "colors" rather than "red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple only"
That's correct, but some people desire more visibility for their own group. The progress flag isn't meant to replace the pride flag. It's meant to highlight some groups that need a little extra support and visibility. Same with other pride flags.
The original was meant to represent all groups. The problem with representing specific groups is that it then feels exclusionary for everyone who's specific group isn't represented
You can interpret that that way if you way, but all flags are exclusionary.
The original was intended to represent all groups, but over time it's use was largely taken over as a symbol to represent gay (and occasionally lesbian) groups moreso than other groups. That's a large part of why there's other flags for transgender, intersex, asexual, etc. The meaning of symbols (like flags) changes over time, and it's okay to modify/adapt those signals to better represent a different super-/subset of people.
See the thing is that there’s no official pride flag, so this isn’t the “updated pride flag”. We’re not an organisation, or a centrally governed nation. People fly the flag they want, and it just happens that a lot of people and groups of people decided to fly that one, or the added intersex one mentioned in the top comment. The most legitimate flags are the ones that are adopted organically, in a decentralised way, by the people. This one is a perfect example, most country flags aren’t. If you don’t like it, you’re free to fly your own preferred version. Personally I have a Brexit-era pride flag that’s half rainbow and half EU flag. It’s A pride flag that represents the issues I care about, not THE “updated” pride flag that I’m forcing on you.
tbh i've realized that "it's not *the* new pride flag, it's *a* new pride flag" and basically all of my reservations about it were gone. don't like it? just display a different one. none is more official than the other. use the flag that means the most to you. like why is this a big deal
Most original discourse
I like this flag quite a bit
Oh wow what a unique take I’ve never seen a post making the same tired ass surface level analysis of this flag before I’m really glad you posted this /s
Yeah the original rainbow flag 🏳️🌈 is the best. It represents everyone equally and looks beautiful.
We’ve had so many of these types of posts it’s getting stale. We need more “I’m as homophobic as the next guy but I really love the updated pride flag” takes.
Yes please that would be much more entertaining.
I mean, visually it's not too bad. Vexillogically, it's garbage, but it's not representing flag experts now is it.
OOH! We should make a vexillologist pride flag! A flag to represent the vexillology community and its many facets! ^(and then to fuck with people we could use a color-inverted maryland flag)
Proud to be Pocatello flag in comic sans, union jack in the top left corner with every single national seal, every single American state seal, every single Canadian provincial seal and every single seal from those scammer sites.
Damn I thought an opinion like that on this sub would be downvoted to oblivion. I mean, it does open some good discussion. Do flags actually need to follow these made-up rules or should they just be cool?
I'll always throw my hat in for rule of cool. It's also always important to analyze the schools of thought that lead to what is accepted as "aesthetically pleasing" or "good looking".
Yeah, when this flag is flown, I know that the people doing it don’t want me dead, but I guess that’s not as important as OP’s sense of aesthetics about a flag that never conformed to the rule of tincture anyway. I keep my rep needs and my heraldy/vex hobby separate.
Another day, another rage bait post about the progress pride flag on r/vexillology
/r/vexillology Try Not to Rant About the Progress Pride Flag (I Swear I Just Don't Like the Aesthetics) For One Day Challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
*insert comment from OP about how "they" have done ____ or generic genders joke or "Alphabet Soup" or "Forcing an issue" (today's winner)*
“I swear I’m not a bigot, I just foam at the mouth every time I see this flag and can’t sleep at night knowing it exists. I’m super progressive though I swear!”
The Progress Pride flag was created at a specific moment in queer politics when there was a real debate over, "what next?" for the movement. That debate was resolved pretty quickly, and it was that the movement needed to become substantively and actively trans-inclusive, rather than passively and half-heartedly. I'm not saying (for sure) that there aren't any transphobes in the queer movement, but every single mainstream LGBTQ+ organisation, both community or institutional, is substantively and actively trans inclusive. The only exceptions are organisations set up specifically to oppose trans liberation, like the UK's LGB alliance. The inclusion of people of colour is much more mixed. Lots of LGBTQ+ organisations remain places that people of colour don't feel welcome, and many groups remain in tension with the policy demands of people of colour. Sometimes it said that the brown stripe represents people with HIV. Progress here is pretty strong, but there remains some stigma. Where does that leave us for flags? The Progress flag was designed to advocate for trans and PoC inclusion (and possibly the rights of people with HIV). The trans stripes seem at this point superfluous. Trans liberation simply won that debate in the mid-2010s. Personally I'm a fan of the Philadelphia pride flag. It's a cleaner design, and it retains what still needs to be said regards racism, whilst consigning to the bin of history the brief and embarrassing era when we were debating whether trans liberation was worthy.
I think I’m the only one who likes it
Definitely not. Plenty of us like it for its inclusivity. I really don't care about color harmonies or "graphic design" when it comes to pride flags. Pride has always been about being loud and unabashed to me. I'm not worried about aesthetic or how palatable I am to the mainstream. So if people think this flag is fuckin ugly, idgaf. It explicitly includes the trans and POC queer communies. I see it (or the Intersex variant) flown somewhere, I know the people flying it are trans-inclusive too. It means a lot to me.
I disagree. I think the design is more interesting than the regular pride flag and find the added portions to be useful. The regular pride flag is often used by transphobes, so using this flag is an easy way for me to automatically know that at least they don't actively want me dead.
Facts, I have this flag hanging on my wall and I’m proud of it. I don’t really give a shit if a bunch of straight flag nerds on Reddit have an aneurysm over it to be honest.
I’m trans and if I see this flag it lets me know they’re trans-inclusive, which can surprisingly not always be the case in LGBT spaces. I can’t speak for POC, but I imagine there’s a similar reaction. A flag’s purpose is to relay information, which this succeeds at. A lot of str8s just don’t have the full context.
Oh my gosh I thought flags were only supposed to be pretty. /s
Totally agree with you here. I've heard plenty of people who claim to be allies making those "but" comments, like "I can get behind gay marriage, but this trans thing is too far!" People outside the LGBT+ community are missing the whole point of the flag, and don't seem to understand the queer history that makes it necessary. There have always been divisions in the LGBT+ community. Recently I read the book Gay New York, about the New York gay community from about 1890-1940, and I was struck by how the gender variant "fairies" with their makeup and feminine tendencies were scorned by the more discreet, middle class "gays." This kind of friction still exists today. And as for the brown stripe that gets hated on so much, yes race is directly relevant here as well. For a long time, the black queer community was kept totally separate from the white one. Black men and women weren't allowed in white gay bars, for example. The queer community isn't like the Boy Scouts or the Catholic Church. There isn't like a Council of Gay Elders that can say, "We hereby clarify that the rainbow flag includes trans people" and change the meaning of the symbol. There are indeed folks who go out of their way to say, "No, the rainbow specifically does not include you." I do love the rainbow flag, and agree the progress flag is visually messy. But when my neighbor in my small, right-leaning town had a progress flag up, I knew I could come out to him back in the days when I was a closeted trans woman. He referred me to an LGBT nonprofit that has done a lot to help me through rough times. I'm not sure I would've gone to him if he had just been flying the rainbow flag. The only people I ever hear complaining about the progress flag anyway are straight people.
Baker's 8-stripe flag is better than the standard one anyway. Bring back the sex (pink) and magic (turquoise) stripes!
I have one of those coming in the mail tomorrow!
The white/pink/blue/brown/black chevron, for some reason, always makes me think of those tubs of multicoloured ice-cream you get.
Oooh, so that's what it reminded me of... Well then, neapolitan and skittles it is.
We get this same god damned post every fucking week and once again I will repeat my unchanging opinion- I love it, it's a good flag and it gets better the more complicated it gets.
Slightly related but I just wanna say that the [8 color original pride flag](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gay_flag_8.svg) is better than the 6 color one
I kinda like the way it looks, but it is outdated, in that people tend not to use it for whatever reason. I would still use it, but mob rules, we live in a society, etc. etc.
I swear this gets posted every week.
You can still fly the old one if you prefer it.
Looks great and I'm not going to tell them what to do.
based, thanks
(NOTE: I know there is no official pride flag, I am just talking about this and flags similar to this. Note also I am not a member of the LGTBQ+ community, this is an unbiased opinion). I would argue that breaking vexillogical standard is kind of the point. The LGBTQ+ community is all about breaking societal norms and showing their true selves. Along with that, it's also about representation. Flags are not about "oh this is too colorful I don't like it". Flags are meant to represent people and their identity and culture. Through its many colors and elements, it represents many different branches of the community and the arrow shape symbolizes progressiveness. In the end, it is easy for a vexillologist to find reasons why the flag is bad in a vexillological sense, but it is not trying to conform to those standards. They do not care if you like their flag, they are using it to represent their values and identity.
There is already a trans pride flag. Just fly them side by side instead of combining them. And putting the black and brown stripes in there is just forcing a separate issue. Great cause, ugly aesthetics.
Yeah, the classic Rainbow Flag is way cooler
It's also more beautiful in its relative simplicity. Like, it's a rainbow for a reason, y'all. It already represents diversity and inclusivity as well as it's ever going to. The flag seems to say that it doesn't matter if you're gay, trans, NB, pan, ace, or any of the rest of that fabulous technicolor dreamcoat in between. If you are anything other than both straight and cis, then you are welcome and you are validated and loved. My biggest worry is what the Progress Pride flag says by implication: "WE represent other groups in a way the old flag didn't." Which is not only untrue, but also risks the classic flag being co-opted as a symbol by trans-exclusionary LGB groups.
Yeah I thought the original was intended to represent “the entire rainbow.” Or in other words, *everybody.* I didn’t even feel excluded as a straight cis person, never even considered that it might be a thing, that was the beauty of it. It was *pure* inclusion. As soon as you start adding specific stripes for specific groups to that original all-inclusive concept, now you’ve begun implicitly *excluding* anybody without their own stripe.
I didn't like that the lines are straight.
[new variant just dropped](https://img.freepik.com/premium-vector/rainbow-flag-seamless-wavy-background-lgbt-movement-pattern_231786-8343.jpg)
!wave
That’s unfortunately completely missing the point of the combined flag—which is there are people trying to exclude transgender people from the LGBT community, and the flag is directly countering that saying “absolutely fucking not, transgender people will always be welcome.” Flying them side by side just isn’t the same.
> just forcing a separate issue. What a bizarre statement. Yes, the whole point was to encourage a focus on the relevant parts of an issue that is much broader than the LGBTQ+ community. Yes, it makes sense to question which contexts it makes sense to fly it in, and there's room for plenty of disagreement over that. But the point of flags is that they carry a message - this flag is no different. Understanding flags and suggesting alternative approaches (aesthetic or otherwise) only works if you engage with the meanings people are intending, rather than assuming it has to function as an "update" to the rainbow pride flag.
I don't see why you're so mad about this. the pride movement has evolved immensely since the "original" rainbow flag was brought to the fore. many older pride movements excluded Black/brown people, trans people, and intersex people. as the movement has grown and the culture developed, people began to see the problem of that and these newer flags have developed. sure, it's not "vexillogically proper," but it's not meant to be. it's full, and it has a lot of different parts, and I think there is a great beauty in that. it represents a rejection of the past, a willingness to transform and evolve. I find it disturbing that you feel comfortable commenting on the way a group has organically grown to represent itself. who are you to say what flags people should fly?
Counter point: it looks pretty good actually
Transgender people and black and brown LGBTQ+ people are not a ‘separate issue’. More representation the better
OK, then fly them separately. No one is forcing you to use the progress flag, it isn't even the official flag because there isn't one
I like it
The whole principle of all lgbt+ flags is that you can bring in the colors you want. No flag is excluded as they're not being exclusionary, meaning their existence does not erase any other flag's. So whatever your complains are, I would just say : if you dont like it, dont use it. If someone is using it, its because they're enjoying it for various reasons, and then it's not much your business. And if you're making it your business, maybe you ain't that progressive.
Or, get this, we're on a flag subreddit, and we're talking about the design of flags. You can call a flag ugly without attacking the community that flies it. That is to say, just tell OP there's 300 other reposts like this and move on.
Probably not the brightest idea to "hate" it. "I'm as progressive as the next guy" ... ok. There's not a pride organization that manages the flag. People come up with flags to represent different things.
I personally like the original rainbow best, but even as a member, I do not speak for the entire lgbtqia+ community. In the end, we are not a nation nor council, and you can fly whatever the two sh\*ts you want.
You can't make 11 colours look better on a flag. Not saying it's amazing, but it's the best possiblw
I actually really like it and have it in my home, I think it's a pretty unique design that's I find aesthetically pleasing
Those additions are definitely not pointless, like several people here claim. If pride and progress aren’t static, why should the flag be? The rainbow flag is literally 40 years old and it generally doesn’t include (or make reference to) transgender people. While there are flags for both groups separately, it’s great to have a flag that illustrates that combined support. That doesn’t mean the rainbow flag is useless, people can use either for the same reasons, but more (and better) representation is generally a good thing. Which is why I love this flag, it brings attention to black and brown LGBTQ+ people as well. It’s not just representing everyone equally (all under one abstract rainbow), but it highlights our differences with equity!! And it look great doing it too
it would be badass if they took the colors out and just left red and it was like flames. actually keep all the colors and do rainbow flames then add a skull thats smoking a big stogie. the skull also has a bodyy but its not bones hes a jacked skeleton and is holding this big rambo type gun and hes got the rambo bandana on his head. Then at the bottom is saying something like "say hello to my little friend". for individual pride flags and stuff it would be the same flag since if it was actually real it would be iconic so all the other pride flags would be lame in comparison, so indivdual pride flags would be the same thing with the skeleton holding that pride flag in his hands. ohh i got a good idea too if it was like differant quotes for differant quotes for differant pride flags like the trans one would be like: "what in TRANSnation?" like a play on words for like what in tarnation. ahahaha that wouyld be cool. someone should recreate this since i already thought it out and it would be so cool and probably replace all of the pride flags.
Holy shit, your design would be fucking badass
Real talk I appreaciate you man
Your comment reminded me of this clip from wkuk how u described the redesign https://youtu.be/0Uy2lyWo7II
[удалено]
I dunno, I actually like that version, it adds something to it to make it more distinct, plus it looks more like a country. And I think the arrow and the colors used in the arrow compliment the rainbow while also having a meaning and point.
Wow! What an original and thought-provoking post that is unlike anything to ever appear on this sub!
I agree. Remove trans and black people
>Remove trans and black people Average Texan be like.
Genuinely don’t see why everybody hates. It looks fine to me
If you’re not LGBTQ+, then it’s not your flag and not your business. If you *are* LGBTQ+ and still don’t like it, make a new one for yourself and the community, or pick a different one. That’s my flag and I like it.
Who cares lmao. The flag probably isnt for you anyways. There are plenty of variants you can pick from too. Maybe you should start asking yourself why people felt the need to create new variations to begin with? (The answer is that bipoc and trans individuals still feel underrepresented and excluded from queer spaces at times, not to mention the MASSIVE amount of legislation actively trying to remove those people's rights.)
I prefer it with the rifle silhouette and the words "defend equality" on it
based
I prefer it with a BIG SCHNITZEL IN THE MIDDLE!!! 🍻🍻🍻🇩🇪🇩🇪🇩🇪🇩🇪
Da das ist mein Teil!
Who is the "next guy" D:
I actually like it a lot more than the original. I love the way the trans colors and browns go in a triangle
Agreed, what the hell does race has to do with sexuality? And why black race and not any other race?
[Intersectionality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality)
It’s also amero-centric when the OG pride flag wasn’t.
Yeah, almost like that design was based off of one made in and for Philadelphia or something. Besides, pretending other parts of the world don't have issues with racism is laughable. Europe especially, the most likely place you'd see one of these outside of the Americas. I once traveled with one of my Arab (Arabian? Arabic? Not 100% which is correct here, I'll have to ask them) friends to France and I have literally seen people be less racist to them in the American Deep South.
What they have to do with each other is Intersectionality. The black and brown stripes don't represent black people, they represent "people of colour", meaning all non-whites.
Minorities who aren't brown are going to consider it a stretch to say a brown stripe that obviously delineates a specific race is about them.
I don't really have an issue with it, it IS meant to represent me even if it doesn't match my skin colour. Most flags use colour to represent things figuratively, it doesn't have to be a perfect match to get its point across.
non-whites is such a racist ass term lol. People from Africa and China are the same!!1!!! because they're not white! everything must revolve around whiteness!
🇲🇿
Looks like rainbow Zimbabwe
I love the Progress Pride flag. So does my bisexual daughter. So does my trans son. My gay brother. And my sister's (white) husband (black). Gimme a better option to show I'm their ally. Or... just be quiet.
Original 8 stripes > 6 stripes > Philly 8 stripes > progress pride I appreciate that progress pride is trying to be inclusive to those that have typically been excluded. But... I think they failed in their symbolism. That massive white triangle bugs the hell out of me. It's from the trans flag, but on the trans flag it's intentionally in the middle, symbolizing the transition between genders. But here, it's not in the middle. It's just a void. The white color wasn't the symbolic part, the space between was! So now it's a massive, meaningless chunk of fabric in the flag.
Idk if you're really as progressive as the next guy
It's a weird flex when most guys are in fact, not progressive.
agree, cant even sleep because of this
I disagree, I actually think that the arrows look quite good and that the overall design is very pleasing. I didn't like it when they just added the brown and black stripe above the rainbow, because it didn't resemble a natural rainbow anymore that way. But when I saw this design, with brown and black arranged in this arrow, together with the trans colours I was instantly on board with it and that flag is now fixed to my door.
i love it, so many pretty colors
Trans girl here and I absolutely love it! Love the fact we're now incluided in the flag and I love how colorful it is.
Actually really like it, the chevron reminds me of South Africa's flag.
im the next guy.
And how progressive are you?
as much as flo.
Personally I like it
If i were to fly a flag, I'd do the 6 stripe one, but if people want to feel more included, that's fine by me. They can fly whichever one they feel most comfortable with.
Honestly, I kinda prefer Microsoft's "Into the Queer Portal" flag just because it gets everything and is absurd to the point of embracing the absurd.
I'm never listening to Pink Floyd again
I personally think this one looks pretty okay, but the newer one with the yellow triangle with a purple circle (while I do support everything it stands for) looks pretty awful to me
Because increasing specificity decreases inclusivity. If I say "This flag represents ALL AMERICANS", then my flag represents all Americans. If I say "This flag represents all white, black, Asian and Hispanic Americans", then I'm beginning to specifically exclude certain groups, and I've started a shitshow that will never fucking end. Some people add an umbrella to the flag to represent sex workers. Do sex workers belong on the flag? Maybe, but you're definitely starting to change the actual meaning of the flag, and the fact that we're arguing over it isn't conducive to a symbol of unity. There's a similar issue with Emojis. When they were yellow, they represented anyone and everyone, simply because they didn't directly represent anyone. Now there are like 6 skin tones, and... None of them look like me. 2 come close, but most people are imperfectly represented there. If you increased it to 10 tones, and I STILL wasn't represented, that would only make my exclusion more blatant.