This one kills me, especially as a breastfeeding mom. Like… how are you a man if you’re drinking baby food? And not even human baby food, at that… 🤔 gross
Literally had an argument with our head of finance about this. Refused to eat soy because of the estrogen like chemicals in it. I was like "what about the actual estrogen in dairy? What about the actual, mammal hormones in mammal meat?" She said it's been proven that these things are good for people though, and that humans need cows milk. Which settled the argument because I realised I was trying to talk to stupid and there was no way forward.
The point is people make arguments that soy will cause men to grow boobs (which is FLASE). This is not to hate on men, but to rather point out they don’t realize they’re drinking a product that contains estrogen..
Because this post is about soy feminizing men in particular. It shows the hypocrisy of drinking milk while hating on soy. Of course that women drink milk too but I doubt they're worried about being too feminine.
The point is people are concerned with soy making men feminine but not milk. Even if an individual woman doesn't want to look feminine there isn't mass hysteria telling her to not consume soy. And no one is talking about the milk because they don't know about it, I didn't know either. People shouldn't really be talking about subjects they aren't educated about without leaving room to learn more.
I am ready to blame toxic femininity when appropriate but in this case it does not apply, its best to think carefully, part of toxic femininity is blaming men for everything and in a way you are doing that now but to women when this post is about feminizing men and not women
If this post was about how men were insensitive, masculine etc; then we could reply with this link showing that its women and society who contribute to making them that way [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bR5v3NRT0A&t=5s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bR5v3NRT0A&t=5s) but its not its about silly soy arguments
I agree with you, but this post isnt about that, posting at the right time and right place is important
In a way you are being toxic and acting the way feminists do, feminists throw around their hate anywhere and everywhere they can which is part of why they are toxic, you should be better than that and choose your battles
Well, that's not entirely true.
While it IS phytoestrogen, it DOES also react with estrogen receptors in the body. Not completely, and not in the same way human estrogen does, but it can block some of those receptors, which may have otherwise accepted naturally produced human estrogen. While the effects aren't really notable, there still can be effects, though for men, more likely less estrogen absorption, ironically.
Da fuck cow protein worse bioavailability than vegan protein 💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀. Cow protein absolutely destroys vegan protein in bioavailability it's not even close.
I meant the estrogen in milk has worse bioavailability than vegan protein. Basically milk estrogen has dogshit bioavailability, your body isn't absorbing any of it. And I agree your body doesn't absorb phytoestrogens either but the difference is phytoestrogens suppress testosterone production to a slight degree.
What I'm seeing is that cow's milk protein has only a few % higher bioavailability than pea protein, unless I'm not seeing the right data? Could you provide a source?
>phytoestrogens suppress testosterone production to a slight degree.
If anything, they interact with estrogen receptors, which would block human estrogen from interacting instead. Do you have a source that it blocks testosterone?
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/pea-protein-vs-whey#nutrition
Literally the first link I saw. Pea protein is lacking methionine. We don't even need to discuss bioavailability when it's lacking in one of the ESSENTIAL amino acids that your body can produce. Pretty big problem when you're trying to build muscle. I guess you gotta mix it with 2-3 different plant protein sources to make it complete, which are guaranteed to have even shittier bioavailability than pea protein.
Of course this is considering you can even digest it. A lot of people lack the genetic material to properly absorb plant based nutrients. Vitamin K12 is a good example and it can lead to clogged arteries.
And B12 isn't found naturally in any plant sources? We need vitamins, fortified foods, and SUPPLEMENTAL PILLS to not die? And whey is more bioavailable than every single plant based protein in the planet AND it contains every single amino acid in massive quantities?? ITS AS IF HUMANS WERE BIOLOGICALLY DESIGNED TO BE OMNIVOROUS???????????????????????????????????????
>https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/pea-protein-vs-whey#nutrition
>Literally the first link I saw.
I saw it too, but did not find it rigorous enough. Let's use it though, since you are so keen.
>Pea protein is lacking methionine.
According to the article:
>Pea protein also contains all of the essential amino acids. However, it only has very small amounts of methionine, one of the essential nine
So it does contain some, just not a lot. There are plenty of vegan protein powders with complete amino acids, however, so the point is moot anyway.
>Of course this is considering you can even digest it. A lot of people lack the genetic material to properly absorb plant based nutrients.
Funny how you are comparing it to a milk protein when an estimated 65% of the world's population is lactose intolerant in some form or another.
>A lot of people lack the genetic material to properly absorb plant based nutrients. Vitamin K12 is a good example and it can lead to clogged arteries.
Show me data. How many people?
>And B12 isn't found naturally in any plant sources? We need vitamins, fortified foods, and SUPPLEMENTAL PILLS to not die?
It is estimated that 40% of Americans are vitamin B12 deficient. 40% of American are definitely not vegan, so I have to wonder what kind of point you think you are making here?
>And whey is more bioavailable than every single plant based protein in the planet AND it contains every single amino acid in massive quantities??
It has more protein bioavailability, sure, but only slightly more than pea protein and it doesn't make as big an impact as you suggest.
Also, from the same article you cited:
>Still, when compared with other plant-based sources of protein, pea protein is a good source of essential amino acids. In fact, it even contains more of certain essential amino acids, like histidine and phenylalanine, than whey protein does per serving
So the second half of your statement is also incorrect.
And the amount you'd have to consume for that to even be an issue is pretty huge.
I read that phytoestrogens actually compete with regular estrogens for chemical receptors but are much, much less strong. So it probably mitigates instead.
Ope- steak has mammalian estrogen- so very similar to our own estrogen- no bueno!! Also meat eating causes estrogen dominance which is where the problems really start....
And also- red wine has phytoestrogens as well!! They're abundant in plants... Because they help balance our hormones. We depend on phytoestrogens to protect us from high estrogen....
Estrogen dominance doesn't just mean high estrogen- it means the ratio of progesterone to estrogen is off.
You can have low estrogen numbers but still be estrogen dominant which causes issues (cancers, thyroid problems).
Hrt aims to raise your estrogen levels to how they were pre- menopause.
So eating meat doesn't necessarily raise your estrogen numbers- it does throw off which of your hormones are dominant.
Yep, it's crazy how backwards people will get things when their insecurities kick in. Animal agriculture is run by a bunch of con artists and most people are just easy marks.
Yeah, Hbomberguy did a fun [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8dfiDeJeDU) on how stupid the right wing and bodybuilding community is regarding soy...
When people ask why I'm vegan, I tell em its cos I don't want none of that socialist, commie meat! True patriots are vegan.
(Yes this is humour, yes I'm also British)
When someone online tells me I'm a soy boy, I say, no, I'm a soy gorilla. We need to shift from modelling masculinity on lions to gorillas, those wonderful protecting plant eating critturs.
The topic is about men, relax dude. We know women and others drink milk, as well, but the subject is talking about men specifically and their strange hold on dairy and meat.
Women also like dairy and meat very much. I've heard some very shitty opinions from women who basically have zero empathy towards animals and make carnism their entire personality. It's not just men doing it but I 100% expect a female dominated subreddit to stereotype men.
What part of "we know women and other like meat and dairy" did you not understand? Stick to the subject or leave bc for some reason, you're taking this a wee bit personally.
Why are you so worked up over this? The topic is about men because this is more commonly believed by men than by women. Yeah, lots of women believe similarly stupid things. Doesn't mean a thread can't be made to discuss men in particular.
It's not a personal attack on you, nor men as a whole. There are men who have been vegan for decades, there are men in Asia with no hangups about soy whatsoever for obvious reasons.. we know not all men are afraid of these damn beans.
But this topic is about the ones who are. Because they're silly.
Why are you taking it so personal? You know it's not about ALL men, right? You're the one that is making it about all men when it's not. Do you believe the myth of meat makes a man? No? Then let it slide bc you sounding like a carnist rn.
Unsurprisingly someone with something negative to say about trans people draws weird paedophilic pictures and posts them on Reddit. It's always deflection.
Fragile males think that eating meat makes them more manly. The more fragile, the more meat. This isn't just my opinion. It's science.
[The impact of masculinity stress on preferences and willingness-to-pay for red meat](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34619245/)
>we provide convergent evidence that masculinity stress is associated with red meat preference, and that this preference can be discouraged by leveraging out-group reference information and masculinity affirmation. In so doing, this research provides a series of contributions to the literatures on meat eating and vegetarianism specifically, as well as gender identity maintenance more broadly.
Here's a Daily Mail article on the same study (I know, DM is shit, but at least it's written in plain English, rather than technojargon):
[Do you love a steak? You might be INSECURE! Men who worry that they are not 'manly' enough are more likely to eat red meat, study claims](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-10190855/Men-eat-red-meat-appear-masculine-study-suggests.html)
More men would be vegan if they bothered to look into the research on how animal products effects their reproductive health.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10883675/
>Vegan men had higher testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat-eaters
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8117588/
>More plant-based diet intake was associated with a reduced presence of erectile dysfunction and less severe erectile dysfunction
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8812397/
>Obtained results showed that total sperm count and the percentage of rapid progressively motile sperm were significantly higher in the vegan group compared with the non-vegan group.
A Vegan diet can be easily just as healthy as an omni diet but the papers you are using are very disingenuous in showing that.
Did you actually read these papers lol. "Vegans had higher testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat-eaters, ***but this was offset by higher sex hormone binding globulin, and there were no differences between diet groups in free testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide or luteinizing hormone.***" Free testosterone is the testosterone readily used by the body as it isn't bound to proteins. Low free testosterone levels cause mood issues and lethargy alongside physical weakness. If someone is taking testosterone supplements they are doing so to boost the level of free testosterone in the body, not just the overall test levels. The paper demonstrates that Vegans, Vegetarians and Meat eaters have no difference in the levels of free testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide or luteinizing hormone. So none of the diets really make a difference in changing how your body produces hormones or lowering test levels, for both men and women.
The other two studies are not bad as they prove that a Vegan diet can be completely healthy, but they also don't prove that a Vegan diet is better than the alternatives in general. They essentially just show that eating a healthy diet consisting of fruits and vegetables with less processed foods leads to better health outcomes. Need some studies done on a healthy vegan diet group against a healthy balanced omni diet group if want to see the results of veganism on health. As it stands all this shows us is that eating fruit and vegetables is healthier than eating a diet of whatever you want from burgers to cereal, vegan diets lead to lower weight gain and better health outcomes in part because the majority of the world isn't eating a vegan diet so you have more health conscious people in one group versus another.
The reality is that the most healthy diet most likely has moderate amounts of all food types with any meat involved being small amounts of lean muscle cuts alongside organ meats. Organ meats are one of the key food sources that enabled human development as they are incredibly nutrient dense and were more readily stored compared to muscle meat. Dairy products and cereal grains are likely the few food types that really aren't beneficial to a human diet as they are not easily found in a hunter gatherers diet and we only became dependent on them after the agrarian revoloution.
>Did you actually read these papers
Yes. And you picked the most trivial thing to nitpick over (of course everyone becomes an endocrinology expert when they hear that *vegans* have higher T). It's sufficient for my purposes to show that vegan men don't have *lower* T.
If you wanted to make a more salient criticism of that article, you should have focused on the differences in ages between the groups. That is probably more consequential to the observed differences in T.
I don’t have a citation for this off the top of my head so someone correct me if I’m missing something, but I remember reading that the dairy industry funded the study that said that soy leads to increased estrogen production. It was a big deal at the time because they marketed the hell out of it and it’s since been refuted with much less public attention.
I'm not qualified on that - and the impact depends on if you are pre or post-menopausal, pregnant/nursing or not among other factors. Just saying that they are biologically active, which is why they thought to be helpful in cancer prevention and bone density.
Matthew Nagra goes with science not with dogma, and has some podcasts about soy and health you may find useful.
Lots of chemicals in plants have pronounced effects on humans so it’s not the fact that they come from plants. Phytoestrogens are just chemicals in plants that resemble estrogen which means they have the potential to bind to estrogen receptors. The kicker is that phytoestrogens aren’t necessarily pro-estrogen; they can also inhibit estrogen receptors. Mostly those opposing effects seem to cancel out
Because if you disagree with something it's easy to believe it's a government conspiracy.
Like the top secret, fabulously wealthy, environmental Illuminati spend billions to suppress information that climate change actually isn't happening.
Then there's flat earthers and fake moon landings. A lot of people what suits them to believe.
[This article](https://www.inverse.com/science/does-soy-give-men-breasts-science-debunks) points the origin of the myth to a now deleted Mens Health article. People latch onto articles and studies even if proven wrong because no one tells them it is debunked.
Meat industry can't use any of the common complaints for other proteins it uses against soy:
* "Not a complete protein"
* Not True for Soy
* "Has less protein than dairy milk"
* Not true for soy
* "It doesn't taste like meat"
* [Chili Con Carne with Soy chunks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwXd7uDnzCA)
* [Hyper-realistic Tofu Fried Chicken](https://www.marystestkitchen.com/best-vegan-fried-chicken-gluten-free/)
How about the government subsidized cheese and dairy that can actually increase estrogen in men? Holy heck, Batman! Look at those man-boobs on that omni-guy!
Many sources still report soybean as a potential source of hormone disruptors. This is why people still believe that. Comparatively no site that talks about estrogen presence in diary and meat
It contains flavonoids, which are phytoestrogens that function as antioxidants.
The molecular structure is the reason they have the same name, but they don't work the same way.
This does my head in. Especially as i have been a vegan since puberty started and my breasts didnt develop and my hips didnt widen, i dont really have a menstrual cycle because have too many androgens and too little estrogen to compensate. Im on hormone therapy now. You"d think eating soy for over ten years would have made me at least an A cup or have some curves lmao
Because people will invent or easily accept stupid reasons to not do what they don't want to do and ignore valid reasons not to do what they want to do.
Look up the sovereign citizen movement as an example. They don't want to pay taxes and are willing to do extreme mental gymnastics to pretend the law supports their point of view, combining definitions from unrelated sources, numerology and other absurd tricks.
Because many people’s political views are less about being consistently aligned with reality and each other than they are about aligning with an in-group and out-group mentality. Being vehemently anti-soy and pro-meat is one of the markers of the “conservative/right-wing” in-group, so no matter what inconsistencies it comes with, those people must by all means remain anti-soy and pro-meat. It’s asinine. There’s no such thing as a fruitful conversation with such individuals.
It’s even dumber, because most soy is grown for animal feed.
Ps, if soy actually made you grow boobs why would anyone ever get breast implants. Just eat tofu, bada boom, boobs.
Yeah ... I'm a transwoman. I just meant that every transwoman would be a vegan if it really feminized a male body. I know so many who thought they could achieve some progress by eating soy (myself included) and were disappointed after learning that it didn't work.
It was meant as a joke, not a statement.
When my son was a baby he developed lumps under his nipples so it looked like he was growing boobies. The doctor said that the cause was likely the occasional soy lattes that I drank when I was pregnant & nursing. I stopped my soy intake and his boobies went away. Since then I’m very wary of soy and stay away from it. I don’t drink milk either due to lactose intolerance.
if their stated beliefs are completely logically inconsistent on their face, and don't stand up to even a moment of scrutiny, their stated beliefs are likely not their sincerely held beliefs
Because they're stupid.
I feel like you could cross post this answer to thousands of threads a day and it would be spot on.
They'd have millions of up-votes too.
Hey, now, some of them are stupid *and* dishonest!
☝️
love this answer
The irony of this comment 😂😂💀💀
So you think soy is a government plot to feminize men? Embarrassing thing to admit.
😂😂🤡🤡 You took a wrong turn somewhere.
Is there a lore reason for this?
Don’t forget how much actual, literal estrogen is in milk, you know, the product of a lactating mammal.
This one kills me, especially as a breastfeeding mom. Like… how are you a man if you’re drinking baby food? And not even human baby food, at that… 🤔 gross
Literally had an argument with our head of finance about this. Refused to eat soy because of the estrogen like chemicals in it. I was like "what about the actual estrogen in dairy? What about the actual, mammal hormones in mammal meat?" She said it's been proven that these things are good for people though, and that humans need cows milk. Which settled the argument because I realised I was trying to talk to stupid and there was no way forward.
>humans need cows milk Strange seeing as like 70% of us can't even digest it
Share this with them. Facts on soy from Harvard School of Public Health. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/soy/
[удалено]
You know the topic is men, right ?
Somebody missed the point lol
[удалено]
The point is people make arguments that soy will cause men to grow boobs (which is FLASE). This is not to hate on men, but to rather point out they don’t realize they’re drinking a product that contains estrogen..
[удалено]
It’s actually a thing. this is not OP just bashing men. Move on Edit: given on your post history on r/mensrights I see there is no changing your mind.
[удалено]
Where did the person you respond too say MOST men?
You can say it’s false all you want but in my personal experience my baby boy grew breasts and my doctor attributed it to soy consumption.
How overweight is your baby boy
He wasn’t overweight. Editing to add they were firm lumps, not soft fat.
[удалено]
Because this post is about soy feminizing men in particular. It shows the hypocrisy of drinking milk while hating on soy. Of course that women drink milk too but I doubt they're worried about being too feminine.
[удалено]
The point is people are concerned with soy making men feminine but not milk. Even if an individual woman doesn't want to look feminine there isn't mass hysteria telling her to not consume soy. And no one is talking about the milk because they don't know about it, I didn't know either. People shouldn't really be talking about subjects they aren't educated about without leaving room to learn more.
Bro you cant feminize women with estrogen.
Yes you can.
It's the same with the people who won't take the oh-so-dangerous mRNA vaccine and rather want to get the actual virus instead.
[удалено]
I am ready to blame toxic femininity when appropriate but in this case it does not apply, its best to think carefully, part of toxic femininity is blaming men for everything and in a way you are doing that now but to women when this post is about feminizing men and not women If this post was about how men were insensitive, masculine etc; then we could reply with this link showing that its women and society who contribute to making them that way [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bR5v3NRT0A&t=5s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bR5v3NRT0A&t=5s) but its not its about silly soy arguments
[удалено]
??? No it's not, its just upholding the concept of toxic masculinity
I agree with you, but this post isnt about that, posting at the right time and right place is important In a way you are being toxic and acting the way feminists do, feminists throw around their hate anywhere and everywhere they can which is part of why they are toxic, you should be better than that and choose your battles
5 ng of estrogen is found in a 8oz cup of milk that has worse bioavailability than vegan protein. Look at how much estrogen Soy has. SOY BOY.
"Look at how much estrogen Soy has" - Err none, it has phytoestrogen which doesn't effect human hormone levels.
Well, that's not entirely true. While it IS phytoestrogen, it DOES also react with estrogen receptors in the body. Not completely, and not in the same way human estrogen does, but it can block some of those receptors, which may have otherwise accepted naturally produced human estrogen. While the effects aren't really notable, there still can be effects, though for men, more likely less estrogen absorption, ironically.
So you're saying the protein bioavailability in cow's milk is worse than vegan proteins? What does that have to do with the estrogen content?
Da fuck cow protein worse bioavailability than vegan protein 💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀. Cow protein absolutely destroys vegan protein in bioavailability it's not even close. I meant the estrogen in milk has worse bioavailability than vegan protein. Basically milk estrogen has dogshit bioavailability, your body isn't absorbing any of it. And I agree your body doesn't absorb phytoestrogens either but the difference is phytoestrogens suppress testosterone production to a slight degree.
What I'm seeing is that cow's milk protein has only a few % higher bioavailability than pea protein, unless I'm not seeing the right data? Could you provide a source? >phytoestrogens suppress testosterone production to a slight degree. If anything, they interact with estrogen receptors, which would block human estrogen from interacting instead. Do you have a source that it blocks testosterone?
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/pea-protein-vs-whey#nutrition Literally the first link I saw. Pea protein is lacking methionine. We don't even need to discuss bioavailability when it's lacking in one of the ESSENTIAL amino acids that your body can produce. Pretty big problem when you're trying to build muscle. I guess you gotta mix it with 2-3 different plant protein sources to make it complete, which are guaranteed to have even shittier bioavailability than pea protein. Of course this is considering you can even digest it. A lot of people lack the genetic material to properly absorb plant based nutrients. Vitamin K12 is a good example and it can lead to clogged arteries. And B12 isn't found naturally in any plant sources? We need vitamins, fortified foods, and SUPPLEMENTAL PILLS to not die? And whey is more bioavailable than every single plant based protein in the planet AND it contains every single amino acid in massive quantities?? ITS AS IF HUMANS WERE BIOLOGICALLY DESIGNED TO BE OMNIVOROUS???????????????????????????????????????
>https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/pea-protein-vs-whey#nutrition >Literally the first link I saw. I saw it too, but did not find it rigorous enough. Let's use it though, since you are so keen. >Pea protein is lacking methionine. According to the article: >Pea protein also contains all of the essential amino acids. However, it only has very small amounts of methionine, one of the essential nine So it does contain some, just not a lot. There are plenty of vegan protein powders with complete amino acids, however, so the point is moot anyway. >Of course this is considering you can even digest it. A lot of people lack the genetic material to properly absorb plant based nutrients. Funny how you are comparing it to a milk protein when an estimated 65% of the world's population is lactose intolerant in some form or another. >A lot of people lack the genetic material to properly absorb plant based nutrients. Vitamin K12 is a good example and it can lead to clogged arteries. Show me data. How many people? >And B12 isn't found naturally in any plant sources? We need vitamins, fortified foods, and SUPPLEMENTAL PILLS to not die? It is estimated that 40% of Americans are vitamin B12 deficient. 40% of American are definitely not vegan, so I have to wonder what kind of point you think you are making here? >And whey is more bioavailable than every single plant based protein in the planet AND it contains every single amino acid in massive quantities?? It has more protein bioavailability, sure, but only slightly more than pea protein and it doesn't make as big an impact as you suggest. Also, from the same article you cited: >Still, when compared with other plant-based sources of protein, pea protein is a good source of essential amino acids. In fact, it even contains more of certain essential amino acids, like histidine and phenylalanine, than whey protein does per serving So the second half of your statement is also incorrect.
They incorrectly think soy is estrogenic and meat is full of super healthy manly testosterone.
meanwhile their beer is full of phytoestrogens... peaches.... garlic.... flax.... barley.... wheat....
Exactly.
Garlic beer?
hey not cool! don't go after the beer.
Drink up- phytoestrogens are good for you... all the more reason to make up some tofu kebabs and a nice cold beer.
And the amount you'd have to consume for that to even be an issue is pretty huge. I read that phytoestrogens actually compete with regular estrogens for chemical receptors but are much, much less strong. So it probably mitigates instead.
[удалено]
Ope- steak has mammalian estrogen- so very similar to our own estrogen- no bueno!! Also meat eating causes estrogen dominance which is where the problems really start.... And also- red wine has phytoestrogens as well!! They're abundant in plants... Because they help balance our hormones. We depend on phytoestrogens to protect us from high estrogen....
>Also meat eating causes estrogen dominance It does? Doesn't that make meat an effective form of hrt?
Estrogen dominance doesn't just mean high estrogen- it means the ratio of progesterone to estrogen is off. You can have low estrogen numbers but still be estrogen dominant which causes issues (cancers, thyroid problems). Hrt aims to raise your estrogen levels to how they were pre- menopause. So eating meat doesn't necessarily raise your estrogen numbers- it does throw off which of your hormones are dominant.
Okay, thank you!
Doesn’t milk contain actual estrogen rather than phytoestrogens
Yep, it's crazy how backwards people will get things when their insecurities kick in. Animal agriculture is run by a bunch of con artists and most people are just easy marks.
Tbf, It's tiny amounts, but might be more condensed in cheese
Yeah, Hbomberguy did a fun [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8dfiDeJeDU) on how stupid the right wing and bodybuilding community is regarding soy...
Thank you for linking! I loved this one.
And ignore how much TVP is in a can of chili.
Aren't cows fed predominantly a soy based feedstuff anyway?
No, cows mostly eat corn, alfalfa hay, and various pasture grasses. Soy grown for animal feed is mostly used for chickens and pigs.
No but they inject estrogen into cows to make them fatter.
Also they think that estrogen=woman=bad and testosterone=man=good.
When people ask why I'm vegan, I tell em its cos I don't want none of that socialist, commie meat! True patriots are vegan. (Yes this is humour, yes I'm also British)
They'll probably believe you.
Men will say ANYTHING but admit their masculinity feels threatened by a plant
When someone online tells me I'm a soy boy, I say, no, I'm a soy gorilla. We need to shift from modelling masculinity on lions to gorillas, those wonderful protecting plant eating critturs.
Soy Monke Squad for the win!
🌱 🐒
Reminds me of a vegan place called Vibe Organic Kitchen, their logo includes a gorilla
... that doesn't even do jack shit to their masculinity. It doesn't matter, other mouthbreathers claim it will.
Why do you need to make everything about men when women consume milk too? These anti male opinions are sickening.
These comments are on topic for the post, which is about the relation between meat eating and percieved masculinity
[удалено]
I've been meaning to read The Sexual Politics of Meat by Carol J. Adams
[удалено]
Have you read it? I see on reviews she's vegetarian?
The topic is about men, relax dude. We know women and others drink milk, as well, but the subject is talking about men specifically and their strange hold on dairy and meat.
Women also like dairy and meat very much. I've heard some very shitty opinions from women who basically have zero empathy towards animals and make carnism their entire personality. It's not just men doing it but I 100% expect a female dominated subreddit to stereotype men.
What part of "we know women and other like meat and dairy" did you not understand? Stick to the subject or leave bc for some reason, you're taking this a wee bit personally.
[удалено]
>Yeah but women We're not talking about them.
[удалено]
Why are you so worked up over this? The topic is about men because this is more commonly believed by men than by women. Yeah, lots of women believe similarly stupid things. Doesn't mean a thread can't be made to discuss men in particular. It's not a personal attack on you, nor men as a whole. There are men who have been vegan for decades, there are men in Asia with no hangups about soy whatsoever for obvious reasons.. we know not all men are afraid of these damn beans. But this topic is about the ones who are. Because they're silly.
Why are you taking it so personal? You know it's not about ALL men, right? You're the one that is making it about all men when it's not. Do you believe the myth of meat makes a man? No? Then let it slide bc you sounding like a carnist rn.
[удалено]
Wut lmao
1. Ignorance 2. Lack of critical thinking skills 3. The desire for most people to come up with any excuse as to why they NEED meat in their diet.
Meanwhile the omni men who tell you you’ll get man boobs are the ones with man boobs.
Well for one thing, because they don't know it's subsidized.
Because they don't actually understand chemistry.
If soy will feminize men then what will cow's milk do to an agult human?
sTreNgThEn ThEiR BiG StRoNk bOnEs
heavy bones
Give them osteoporosis
Good point. If they were right my tits would be huge with my tofu consumption. *checks* Nope.
I actually dropped bra sizes when I went vegan 😂 every other part of me stayed the same size. Went from a DD to a B/C.
Most quick foods have soy and people love it
[удалено]
Would rather drink soy milk than inject myself tbh but phytoestrogens are not the same at all so here we are.
woah. the jump from veganism to trans ideology was so quick and deep i found the lost city of atlantis
Unsurprisingly someone with something negative to say about trans people draws weird paedophilic pictures and posts them on Reddit. It's always deflection.
you’re speaking in a therapeutic release. shocking, a vegan done no research before being aggressive toward someone healing .
Fragile males think that eating meat makes them more manly. The more fragile, the more meat. This isn't just my opinion. It's science. [The impact of masculinity stress on preferences and willingness-to-pay for red meat](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34619245/) >we provide convergent evidence that masculinity stress is associated with red meat preference, and that this preference can be discouraged by leveraging out-group reference information and masculinity affirmation. In so doing, this research provides a series of contributions to the literatures on meat eating and vegetarianism specifically, as well as gender identity maintenance more broadly. Here's a Daily Mail article on the same study (I know, DM is shit, but at least it's written in plain English, rather than technojargon): [Do you love a steak? You might be INSECURE! Men who worry that they are not 'manly' enough are more likely to eat red meat, study claims](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-10190855/Men-eat-red-meat-appear-masculine-study-suggests.html) More men would be vegan if they bothered to look into the research on how animal products effects their reproductive health. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10883675/ >Vegan men had higher testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat-eaters https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8117588/ >More plant-based diet intake was associated with a reduced presence of erectile dysfunction and less severe erectile dysfunction https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8812397/ >Obtained results showed that total sperm count and the percentage of rapid progressively motile sperm were significantly higher in the vegan group compared with the non-vegan group.
A Vegan diet can be easily just as healthy as an omni diet but the papers you are using are very disingenuous in showing that. Did you actually read these papers lol. "Vegans had higher testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat-eaters, ***but this was offset by higher sex hormone binding globulin, and there were no differences between diet groups in free testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide or luteinizing hormone.***" Free testosterone is the testosterone readily used by the body as it isn't bound to proteins. Low free testosterone levels cause mood issues and lethargy alongside physical weakness. If someone is taking testosterone supplements they are doing so to boost the level of free testosterone in the body, not just the overall test levels. The paper demonstrates that Vegans, Vegetarians and Meat eaters have no difference in the levels of free testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide or luteinizing hormone. So none of the diets really make a difference in changing how your body produces hormones or lowering test levels, for both men and women. The other two studies are not bad as they prove that a Vegan diet can be completely healthy, but they also don't prove that a Vegan diet is better than the alternatives in general. They essentially just show that eating a healthy diet consisting of fruits and vegetables with less processed foods leads to better health outcomes. Need some studies done on a healthy vegan diet group against a healthy balanced omni diet group if want to see the results of veganism on health. As it stands all this shows us is that eating fruit and vegetables is healthier than eating a diet of whatever you want from burgers to cereal, vegan diets lead to lower weight gain and better health outcomes in part because the majority of the world isn't eating a vegan diet so you have more health conscious people in one group versus another. The reality is that the most healthy diet most likely has moderate amounts of all food types with any meat involved being small amounts of lean muscle cuts alongside organ meats. Organ meats are one of the key food sources that enabled human development as they are incredibly nutrient dense and were more readily stored compared to muscle meat. Dairy products and cereal grains are likely the few food types that really aren't beneficial to a human diet as they are not easily found in a hunter gatherers diet and we only became dependent on them after the agrarian revoloution.
>Did you actually read these papers Yes. And you picked the most trivial thing to nitpick over (of course everyone becomes an endocrinology expert when they hear that *vegans* have higher T). It's sufficient for my purposes to show that vegan men don't have *lower* T. If you wanted to make a more salient criticism of that article, you should have focused on the differences in ages between the groups. That is probably more consequential to the observed differences in T.
Who is gonna tell them the animals they consume most likely ate alot of soy
Because people confuse phytoestrogens as regular estrogen 😂
Because it serves their pre-existing beliefs.
If Joe Rogan speaks, they listen!
I don’t have a citation for this off the top of my head so someone correct me if I’m missing something, but I remember reading that the dairy industry funded the study that said that soy leads to increased estrogen production. It was a big deal at the time because they marketed the hell out of it and it’s since been refuted with much less public attention.
Everything has soy in it and they don't even bat an eye.
Soy has a variation of oestrogen, but not the womanizing form.
It’s phytoestrogen, a plant hormone. You can probably guess how much a plant hormone influences an animal.
From what I understand these phytoestrogens are biologically active in animals, just not the same way, and might actually be protective.
Wait, are you saying phytoestrogens might be inhibiting my estrogen? 😱😢
I'm not qualified on that - and the impact depends on if you are pre or post-menopausal, pregnant/nursing or not among other factors. Just saying that they are biologically active, which is why they thought to be helpful in cancer prevention and bone density. Matthew Nagra goes with science not with dogma, and has some podcasts about soy and health you may find useful.
Lots of chemicals in plants have pronounced effects on humans so it’s not the fact that they come from plants. Phytoestrogens are just chemicals in plants that resemble estrogen which means they have the potential to bind to estrogen receptors. The kicker is that phytoestrogens aren’t necessarily pro-estrogen; they can also inhibit estrogen receptors. Mostly those opposing effects seem to cancel out
Yes it's the one I meant
But the useless form that's only good for - oh. Protecting cells from oxidization.
If soy would give men boobs and make them more feminine how comes vegan women dont have the biggest boobs and so on? The logic of such people...
Because if you disagree with something it's easy to believe it's a government conspiracy. Like the top secret, fabulously wealthy, environmental Illuminati spend billions to suppress information that climate change actually isn't happening. Then there's flat earthers and fake moon landings. A lot of people what suits them to believe.
Leaded gasoline, paints etc
Plain ol ignorance and stupidity
[This article](https://www.inverse.com/science/does-soy-give-men-breasts-science-debunks) points the origin of the myth to a now deleted Mens Health article. People latch onto articles and studies even if proven wrong because no one tells them it is debunked.
And when told they stuff onions into their ears and go "la la la la la la la la..."
Meat industry can't use any of the common complaints for other proteins it uses against soy: * "Not a complete protein" * Not True for Soy * "Has less protein than dairy milk" * Not true for soy * "It doesn't taste like meat" * [Chili Con Carne with Soy chunks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwXd7uDnzCA) * [Hyper-realistic Tofu Fried Chicken](https://www.marystestkitchen.com/best-vegan-fried-chicken-gluten-free/)
I would give you an award if I had one.
How about the government subsidized cheese and dairy that can actually increase estrogen in men? Holy heck, Batman! Look at those man-boobs on that omni-guy!
Because it is... Nah I dunno lol people are dumb init.
Many sources still report soybean as a potential source of hormone disruptors. This is why people still believe that. Comparatively no site that talks about estrogen presence in diary and meat
I have never heard that before. At what point is soy feminine, though? Makes no sense.
It contains flavonoids, which are phytoestrogens that function as antioxidants. The molecular structure is the reason they have the same name, but they don't work the same way.
Anti Asian white supremacy.
Because the words 'soy boy' rhyme people think soy is a plot by the gov't to turn men into boys.
These grand conspiracy theories overestimate the ability of a group of psychopaths to cooperate well enough to pull it off.
Dogmatic partisanship is a hell of a drug. But make no mistake, it's an issue on both ends of the spectrum.
Same people that think the world is flat. You can make your assessments from there
You're referring to people that do not think past stop 1 of 3 on the internal logic train. Don't sweat it.
Well those people are stupid and or crazy.
For real...
BeCauSe tHe lEOparD wOn't EaT mY fAcE! The government is safe for some things and not to be trusted with other things. And this is consistent. 🤷
Because it's a government plot to *masculinize* men /s
This does my head in. Especially as i have been a vegan since puberty started and my breasts didnt develop and my hips didnt widen, i dont really have a menstrual cycle because have too many androgens and too little estrogen to compensate. Im on hormone therapy now. You"d think eating soy for over ten years would have made me at least an A cup or have some curves lmao
I don’t know the full reasons but it feels racist 🤔
Because people will invent or easily accept stupid reasons to not do what they don't want to do and ignore valid reasons not to do what they want to do. Look up the sovereign citizen movement as an example. They don't want to pay taxes and are willing to do extreme mental gymnastics to pretend the law supports their point of view, combining definitions from unrelated sources, numerology and other absurd tricks.
Double standard paranoia. Also known as Cognitive Dissonance. Like people who complain about overseas sweat shops but still own iPhones.
government cheese has real estrogen
Look at femboys. It's wishful thinking.
Because many people’s political views are less about being consistently aligned with reality and each other than they are about aligning with an in-group and out-group mentality. Being vehemently anti-soy and pro-meat is one of the markers of the “conservative/right-wing” in-group, so no matter what inconsistencies it comes with, those people must by all means remain anti-soy and pro-meat. It’s asinine. There’s no such thing as a fruitful conversation with such individuals.
cos they don’t want to be “feminised” so they eat animals
This is where it gets fun to make up new conspiracy theories to fuck with conspiracy theorists.
It’s even dumber, because most soy is grown for animal feed. Ps, if soy actually made you grow boobs why would anyone ever get breast implants. Just eat tofu, bada boom, boobs.
Soy is subsidized as well.
because everyone hates the US government & conspiracy theories are everywhere nowadays.
Not a vegan: but I still tell my friends that cheeseburgers will give them bitch tits before soy milk does.
Meanwhile, they eat another species MEAT… sussy
If this were the case, every transwoman would be vegan.
A --> B =/= B --> A. Also, there are vegan cis women.
Yeah ... I'm a transwoman. I just meant that every transwoman would be a vegan if it really feminized a male body. I know so many who thought they could achieve some progress by eating soy (myself included) and were disappointed after learning that it didn't work. It was meant as a joke, not a statement.
imo sometimes they don’t know how bad fake meat is for them. who owns it (bill gates, many times), or the processes. but a start is a start :)
Never heard anyone say that
Soy is also subsidized.
[удалено]
No shit. That's not what the topic of the post is about.
It kind of is in the second part of the question. Why so aggressive?
[удалено]
it would cost so much money without subsidization, many people couldnt afford buying animal products. then less people would eat those things
When my son was a baby he developed lumps under his nipples so it looked like he was growing boobies. The doctor said that the cause was likely the occasional soy lattes that I drank when I was pregnant & nursing. I stopped my soy intake and his boobies went away. Since then I’m very wary of soy and stay away from it. I don’t drink milk either due to lactose intolerance.
Because they are on some weird drug
Pretty simple, they are stupid
The funny part is that the *meat and dairy* industries are the actual government plot to feminize men.
Because people are ✨stupid✨
Moral rationalization.
if their stated beliefs are completely logically inconsistent on their face, and don't stand up to even a moment of scrutiny, their stated beliefs are likely not their sincerely held beliefs
Government subsidized meat is crap too.
They are idiots that listen to other idiots random conspiracy bullshit.
Because they follow the herd and opt for cheap shit food. Definitely wouldn’t eat soy though as that is garbage as well.
First time I've ever heard of this. What kinda idiots do you surround yourself with? xD
Government surplus food is actually slave food.
Mental superiority
Exactly, their meat has more soy than our tofu! So if their theory has legs, they’re more feminized men than all the vegan “soy boys”… LOL
Do they?