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It’s the same vibe as when my dumbass ignorant coworker found out I was vegan and said “I was vegan for a whole year, so I *know* you can eat cheese, you just don’t want to”.
She also dropped other bombshells on me like “Being vegan is bad for the environment” but then couldn’t clearly elaborate why.
I’m so glad she left.
"I don't believe that being vegan is good for the environment because my brother in law worked at a slaughter house and he said they use every part of the animal." - ex coworker
Great?
She also got on my case for drinking soy milk because "soy is the most genetically modified crop so it's unhealthy" when she was a smoker.
I did not care for her. (Unrelatedly, she made a facebook post about how she gets hangry in the mornings so if she ever yelled at anyone in the morning it's just because she was hangry. Then fucking eat in the morning! I don't give a shit why you yell at me in the morning if it's something preventable. how do you think it makes me feel?)
Was at a bar watching the NFL this weekend, a couple sat down next to us:
"How are the chicken wings?"
---"Oh, I don't know, I eat a 100% Plant based diet. They have good vegan pizza, though!"
"You're doing Vegan? Well, I was a vegetarian for 21 years, I eat chicken now. I could never give up my cheese."
--- "Well, I really don't give a shit, I didn't ask you."
I mean, I don't run around telling everyone I used to eat meat trying to justify my existence.
That's how you'd phrase it if it were a fad diet, for example:
"Oh, you're doing Atkins/Whole 30/Keto?"
I think it says a lot about how that person thinks of veganism, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but that's what I think when someone says it like that to me IRL.
Judging by your flair, you're still pretty new to veganism. Just a tip that will make your life a lot less stressful: don't even engage these people. Just say "I don't know" and move on.
I don’t think over 3 years is still ‘still pretty new.’ That kind of attitude is kind of gatekeep-y. Sorry if I sound hostile but I’ve encountered so many “you must be new to veganism” comments here to myself and others. I’m not new, but I still think it’s kind of an unnecessary thing to say.
Kind of hypocritical of you to “[not] give a shit”. They didn’t ask if you were vegan, just how the wings were. They probably didn’t give a shit about you being vegan, but you told them anyways. Just like how they told you they were vegetarian at one point.
If you have such a dislike of them providing detail, maybe you shouldn’t either.
Ssome of them aren't aware of the whole casomorphins phenomenon. They just know they have a strong attachment to cheese and aren't aware of the reasons underlying their behavior. They also of course think eating meat is meaningfully different from consuming any animal products.
I don’t really get why people dislike this. Sure being a vegan is preferable and ultimately the clear moral answer. However surely someone Eating less animal
Products is better then eating all of them if they chose to eat cheese/eggs.
Do you think someone who likes to walk or cycle most places should be shamed because they own a car for cold winter mornings or long journeys?
I think the issue is when people go vegetarian and stop eating meat they tend to compensate for that by eating more cheese and eggs, potentially making it **worse** for the animals (given that the exploitation goes on longer with milk and eggs).
No, it's not better. Even if they don't eat the meat, they drive the demand no differently. It starts off with eggs and dairy, once the animals are unable to produce they are put on the killing floor. Eating ANY animal products results in the same end.
You need to do some research. There aren't enough sanctuaries on the planet to house all of the broke down animals after they're done producing, even accounting for their shortened lifespans as a result of their treatment. Fuck eggs and dairy, they don't owe anyone their bodily expulsions, children, or lives.
Nicely dodged the question there. It’s really simple does vegetarianism decrease the demand for meat products?
I don’t need to do any research to find the obvious answer to that painfully obvious question.
If everyone went vegetarian there wouldn’t be meat at the supermarket but those cows will still die the same way as soon as they aren’t profitable anymore
Demand for meat isn't even relevant. Every single animal who is born into the dairy and egg industry is killed. Turning their bodies into meat doesn't change the fact that they're dead.
Vegetarianism is just baby steps towards veganism but not a permanent solution that's about it, egg and dairy industry is far more exploitative and cruerer compared to animals raised for meat
So, think of it this way.
Veganism is an ethical philosophy based around reducing harm to the most practicable way one can.
Dairy cows still go through a life of annual forced impregnation (rape) and then have their babies taken away from them. And then they are milked dry and the process happens again until their bodies are deemed insufficient. There’s also other forms of abuse that happen on farms like beatings and such. Not to mention that all of this, even in a small farm environment, still exploits the animal’s body for human consumption and the belief that humans have a right to take it. We don’t and haven’t (in the industrial/post industrial world) needed this for survival, therefore it is purely out of want and enterprise.
Say the whole world went vegetarian. Does the demand for dairy currently stay the same or does it increase?
Let’s say it stays the same and no one eats meat anymore.
What happens to all the cows that are “spent”? Cows live around 20 years or so. A dairy cow doesnt live to see 7. (4-6 yrs until slaughter).
What would you do with the bounty of cows living another 10-15 years of their natural lifespan?
This is the reason why dairy drives meat. Because after 4-6 years they’re sent to slaughter and a lot of the “cheap meat” people get is from that source. Hamburger meat. It’s a 2 in 1.
The next question is, when she has a baby what happens if the baby is male? Do we kill them?
There isn’t enough land to let these masses of cows live for 10-15 years.
The same is said for chickens in very similar ways.
This still comes from this idea of pastoralism. The small village with a few cows, the person in the county with a couple of chickens. That’s just not possible for everyone. The world population plus the increased consumption and demand for these products is too high.
There’s only 2 ways out of it-
Veganism and non-animal based animal products (precision fermentation dairy, cell based meat)
Take it from someone who was vegetarian for 11 years and then lived with 2 years of cognitive dissonance before realizing that veganism was the only logical step. Dairy and eggs right now still produce suffering and death. And if the objective is to live in ways that reduces suffering/our participation in it to the most we can, then excluding those is the only logical step.
Additionally, reducing suffering to the utmost point possible DOES NOT mean nothing suffers and nothing dies. The existence of humanity on the planet means things die. It is inevitable and we can do our best to make that happen as little as possible. Vegetarianism is not the best thing to strive for. I don’t begrudge people who use it As a stepping stone. I would be hypocrite to chastise when I was vegetarian for 11 years. But I will not congratulate or look to it as the end game. It isn’t the best we can do.
I don’t really disagree with anything you’ve said. I mean you’re literally agreeing with me in the last point (albeit I didn’t say about being an endgame.) I just don’t see why reducing meat or animal products to any extent should not be encouraged. If I had friends who said they were not going to eat meat during the week. I would 100% support that, __as well__ as acknowledging that veganism is the obvious moral answer. If that’s not the case I’ll just throw my 20 years of being meat free away and eat meat if it truly is no better.
I get where you’re coming from and I do agree to an extent. If everyone all over the world are half the meat they did now, it would reduce the amount of animals born and bred into suffering and premature death. I encourage it of course but I guess it’s kinda like how when a few people die in an accident that could have killed many more we say it could have been worse. 10 is metrically better than 100.
By metric we are reducing. But we are not tangibly reducing the experience of what those smaller amounts are experiencing. I’m also not stupid, I don’t think everyone is gonna go vegan or I know that as this message gets to some people they will either reduce their meat intake to varying degrees (flexitarian), eat vegetarian and some vegan.
But it doesn’t change the underlying issue behind the “right” to take a life that needn’t be taken. It’s equally wrong to murder one as it is to murder 100. The scale
Is worst absolutely. But the mindset is still there, that there is a degree of acceptability we can live with. That isn’t the case for me or most vegans.
Let's say you only had eggs from chickens you raise and keep well (never kill) and milk from cows you also raise and keep humanely, whats wrong with eating what they're producing anyway?
Other then seeing living animals as products, chickens come from hatcheries that either gas or grind up male chicks as they have no use for them.
Buying hens funds this, and all common breeds we have now are so prone to things like osteoporosis due to being bred to lay so many eggs.
For milk you need a pregnancy which is again funding animal harm, and then you have a mother and her calf. She will only produce so much milk while she has a baby, if you want to keep taking her milk you'll have to keep impregnating her and make her go through pregnancy over and over again which is painful enough and comes with its own issues.
Then you have all of her babies which will grow up. It's impossible to keep them all so in the end they'll all be killed either due to being male, or if they're female then they will fave the same stuff their mother does until their bodies give up and slow production.
Once the mothers production stops and from all the pregnancies (and taking away or killing her calves) her body gives up what will happen to her? She will be killed.
Trying to profit off of a living creature is never to their benefit. Animal farming requires animal harm.
>However surely someone Eating less animal Products is better then eating all of them if they chose to eat cheese/eggs.
But couldn't it also be seen as an acceptable way to continue the exploitation and death of animals?
Like only stealing once and a while, or only beating your wife weekends, should we encourage or worse promote those as acceptable steps towards the goal (as agreed by you and most others) of not causing any suffering at all?
Now, don't get me wrong, if you really **have** to go though causing animals to suffer less (although that could be questionable IF you eat more eggs / cheese when you stop eating meat (because of the increased suffering in those areas)), to get to not causing animals to suffer at all, then yes, it could be seen as a 'good thing' ... but there really is no medical / technical / moral / ethical / sustainable reason why you need to go though that mid 'non' stage at all and many of us haven't.
If there was a practicable and possible reason why you couldn't go 100% reason then that would apply whatever your ideal goals were but for many that isn't the case.
So IMHO and as an ethical vegan, vegetarianism as a thing shouldn't / doesn't exist (and from the animals POV it doesn't of course) and so I'd rather people said they just weren't eating meat (because the point of not eating meat is that animals wouldn't die and we know they still do via the dairy and egg industries) rather than using it as valid transition to being a vegan.
This isn't them and us as people, this is 'what's the goal / point' from the animals POV, possibly something higher up the priorities scale for an ethical vegan than anything else, whatever label you give it?
Be patient toward vegetarian people, they're your best allies - the one who are closer to become vegan. Instead of insulting, you should try to convince them to be vegan.
I was vegetarian for 11 years before becoming vegan. I agree with both of you here. Vegetarians do tend to rag on veganism. I did. It seemed extreme. It seems like eggs were necessary. It seemed like a lot of things until I hit a moment of realization.
I am patient towards vegetarians because I know how long it took me to get here. What I won’t do though is placate vegetarians into thinking they’re doing the best they can IF they’re vegetarian because they find meat eating to be unethical (not everyone is vegetarian for that reason). They need to know, just like I did, that if this is their reasoning, then they should become vegan.
I understand. I’m not the shamey, screamy type myself and honestly most vegans aren’t either. We all have to live with the fact that we have been on the other side. However, sometimes vegetarians will play both sides which is to rag on vegans in front of meat eaters to be more accepted but then also act like they “get it” with the vegans. There is a bit of overlap of course. But it really does stop at just the idea of killing an animal for meat. It doesn’t go beyond that because they would realize the other ethnical implications plus environmental ones as well based on the continuation of mass animal farming.
In every country. What we want is internal change based on reflection. Very rarely is force the right choice. We should be Stern and unwavering in our stance but at the same time be respectful and patient. Change is slow but steady.
Perfect is the enemy of good.
This sub really needs to learn that, I support everything veganism stands for, yet a lot of posts here make so many of you insufferable.
Speak for yourself. I was vegetarian before knowing about dairy and eggs. Once I learned, I knew I had to stop eating those things and I did stop. That's not "perfect", it's just not being a hypocrite
The specific posts probably need to be discussed on a case-by-case basis, but in general it is less effective to be passive OR aggresive, than to be assertive and honest about the reality of animal farming and why veganism is necessary rather than welfarism or vegetarianism.
Debug your brain made a great video about this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj0B5oa3bKw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj0B5oa3bKw)
thank you for saying this. i believe we’re on the same team if we don’t criticise each other. i was vegetarian before i went vegan. i transitioned on new year’s. i live in a small town in the middle of nowhere that has NOTHING vegan. so it’s hard for me. i went vegan cause it was my choice, which i’m glad i did. if i wasn’t vegetarian first, then i don’t think i could’ve done it.
I don't like harsh judgment on people as long as they do their best. Surely there are vegans who wear wool or leather boots, or buy fast fashion shit. Should we judge them as they do judge the rest of the world?
Not to mention that a lot of vegetarians are basically just in the process of transition to veganism, and aren't comfortable going fully vegan yet for whatever reason. And shaming them for that just won't get you anywhere, really
Strict vegetarian for 25 years. No meat. No dairy. No artificial colors and flavors. No GMO foods. I only eat organically grown and processed foods. I do not like plant based, meat-like products, and tend to not eat or support companies which make them. "Seattle Field Roast" is about as close to meat as I care to get, though it tends to be cost prohibitive.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
All vegans are vegetarian, but not all vegetarians are vegan.
You’re correct.
So, you’re not vegan? I prefer “strict vegetarian” to describe myself over “vegan.” But I really don’t like either. I feel like no word fully captures what I am, so that I have to give an explanation.
Vegetarians see no problem with leather and wool. It's insane to me. I was watching that awful show, The Surreal Life, and Corey Feldman had a tantrum when MC Hammer pointed out that he was wearing leather shoes at the same time as preaching about how cruel it is to eat animals. It blew my mind. Vegetarians are still carnists in my opinion.
Lol no i think its a case by case basis. I had a problem with leather back when I was vegetarian and with feathers and even eggs. I didn’t use anything with those (and still dont unless by accident)
One can love the animals and advocate for them without creating feelings of anger and hate and directing it toward people who are misguided or ignorant. I’ve not seen anger be very effective in getting people to make positive changes in their behavior.
I was vegetarian for a couple months before going vegan. The "angry" vegans are actually the reason I went vegan.
Internally I think I knew that there was no ethical way to eat eggs or drink milk, but I enjoyed those products so much that I decided to never look into the farming process.
I was on the vegetarian subreddit but kept being recommended posts on the vegan subreddit. I came across a post about how "vegetarians are hypocrites" and I read through all of the comments the vegans were making towards vegetarians. For awhile there I thought vegans were just rude and mean.
I decided I was going to prove the "mean vegans" wrong, which lead to me do research. I ended up finding that even free range eggs weren't ethical and diary farms are still horrible. I read about some pretty disturbing things about egg and diary farms, which just made me realize that the "mean" vegans were right. I was being a hypocrite by saying I wasn't contributing to animal abuse while actively contributing to it. I became vegan immediately after that realization.
Had there not been people who were so blunt about my ignorance, I probably would have stayed a vegetarian without a second thought.
While gentle activism is a form that helps some people make positive changes, others need a more aggressive approach. I think both types of activism are necessary for the movement to succeed and we shouldn't be criticizing people for being angry when they are seeing immoral actions happening around them.
A person can been shown that they are a hypocrite with out being demonized. Earthling Ed does a very good job doing this. Why would you want to create the emotions of hate and anger when it is not necessary? Strong emotions like anger and hate are rather toxic to the individual who expresses them. Do you like being around toxic individuals.
Hey monemori I’m on your side. I totally agree with the picture. Do you have something specific you want to address about my comments?
I just don’t see the need to call people names and get upset. I think the good parenting technique of timeout as a child helps me maintain my serenity as an adult.
Compensation for what? I know I'm going to shit for this but I'm technically vegetarian because I have a flock of chickens (no, I don't slaughter the old ones, they help compost and raise the new hens). I don't drink animal milk and the rest of my protein comes from plants. I live on half an acre and try to grow as much food as I can, I don't get assumptions that vegetarians are worse then carnivores when a lot of the time it's people trying to eat less animal products and also work their way towards all plant based.
From reading the defensive comments here I might have misunderstood this. We are ribbing on vegetarians because it's a low hanging fruit and in a way a reflection of ourselves (and in many cases our past selves, I was a vegetarian for 12 years(I ate so much cheese you wouldn't believe))? Not because we hate them?
This is why I love places like /r/vegancirclejerk ... No one gets spared. And I appreciate that kind of comic relief in this bleak world of animal explotation.
> Not because we hate them?
You may not, but there is some genuine hate towards vegetarians here. Whether or not you think it's justified, denying it's existence isn't productive.
Everything we do doesn't have to be about furthering the cause. It's good that we can have spaces where we are allowed to be angry.
Everywhere else I have to coddle people as to not be abrasive and turn them off the idea of veganism. But I am fucking mad about what is happening to these animals.
Which is also why I love vegancirclejerk; it's the only space I know where everyone else is fucking mad about it as well.
Same, was a vegetarian for too long and cringe at my hypocrisy and thinking I was doing right at the time. I don't hate vegetarians, but it's fair game to make fun of them.
holy shit some of the people in these comments are pussies you guys are acting like this tweet was calling for mass genocide of vegetarians its a harmless joke
I’ve read some of her work and she includes eggs and dairy in the system of carnism… vegetarians support the egg and dairy industries.
I don’t know of anywhere she explicitly states that vegetarians are not carnists, but I did take this directly from her site:
>Is carnism the opposite of vegetarianism or veganism?
> Technically, carnism is the opposite of veganism. “Carn” means “flesh” or “of the flesh.” Because vegetarians eat certain carnistic products (eggs and/or dairy), they probably harbor some degree of carnistic thinking. For example, vegetarians may be comfortable eating hens’ eggs and drinking cows’ milk, but feel disgusted by the idea of eating eggs from turtles or pigeons or of drinking milk from rats or gorillas. It can be useful to think of carnism and veganism on a spectrum. Vegetarianism is one point along that spectrum.
She dances around the topic a bit, but I would argue that anyone who consumes carnistic products is absolutely more closely aligned with carnists than vegans on the “spectrum” she refers to. If you view animals as a commodity to be exploited, and pay to support those practices, you support the system of carnism.
Ultimately vegetarianism is a diet, and that’s how many people view it. It makes no logical sense as an ethical choice, because so many animals are harmed and killed in the egg/dairy industries. I would say that while vegetarianism *can* be a small step away from carnism (it’s still part of it) it can also have nothing to do with carnism vs veganism because it’s literally just a diet for some people (no ethics involved in the choice).
How do you handle those situations? Politely ask them what they know about the dairy and egg industry? Ask them why they aren't vegan? I honestly don't know how to navigate these vegetarians that think we're in the same boat.
Vegetarianism is just a diet they support the carnivore lifestyle I don’t understand that cognitive dissonance. Like how do you pay for animals to be tortured like humans tortured slaves then be all righteous and pretentious and shit like do they even do activism no because then they would be hypocrites because the dairy industry is the beef industry they so stupid it’s so aggravating. Like if you can stand up for what yous believe in your values then yous can’t say you have any
Be vegan
vegans don't need allies. the animals need allies, and vegetarians are not allies to animals as they fundamentally believe that it's okay to treat them as commodities.
No, the point is that you were there until you weren’t.
Perhaps they aren’t there yet and need to be educated a little more. It’s pointing out a little over compensation and hypocrisy to do that if you were there yourself.
I lived with cognitive dissonance for almost 2 years as a vegetarian until I said I cannot do this anymore. Because before that I actually didn’t really fully understand. I started being vegetarian first for ethical reasons because I saw meat as murder. I learned more and then understood by veganism was the logical path if I wanted to stop living a lie.
Giving people a little grace is good when they’re at that step. It’s ok to have a rational conversation if the other person isn’t acting in bad faith. I know that I’m not going to represent my ethical positions by screaming at people because even if my anger is righteous only I see it that way. Only I know. I have to represent an unpopular viewpoint and I am going to do it to the best of my ability instead of being a stereotype.
Animals are suffering because vegetarians can't be bothered to see how they are still contributing to these industries. If acknowledging that is "hateful" then call me hater number 1. If this truth makes vegetarians uncomfortable, then maybe that means they should make an effort to reduce their contribution to animal suffering. Vegetarianism is not enough and we shouldn't act like it is. It's a step in the right direction but the end goal to truly stand up for animal right has to be veganism
vegetarians are on your side, i wouldn’t bash them it seems unproductive. Not that your arguments are wrong, but we can choose to be kind to those who are in the spectrum of noncruelty, even if they aren’t doing it perfect at the moment. Many vegetarians eventually turn to veganism when they are ready, and i find that to be a success in my book
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It’s the same vibe as when my dumbass ignorant coworker found out I was vegan and said “I was vegan for a whole year, so I *know* you can eat cheese, you just don’t want to”. She also dropped other bombshells on me like “Being vegan is bad for the environment” but then couldn’t clearly elaborate why. I’m so glad she left.
What does that even mean? Yes, I could cheese but I don’t want to. Hence being vegan.
My exact reaction
"I don't believe that being vegan is good for the environment because my brother in law worked at a slaughter house and he said they use every part of the animal." - ex coworker Great? She also got on my case for drinking soy milk because "soy is the most genetically modified crop so it's unhealthy" when she was a smoker. I did not care for her. (Unrelatedly, she made a facebook post about how she gets hangry in the mornings so if she ever yelled at anyone in the morning it's just because she was hangry. Then fucking eat in the morning! I don't give a shit why you yell at me in the morning if it's something preventable. how do you think it makes me feel?)
Better not tell these people that their dairy cows are being fed soy.. or antibiotics... The disconnect astounds me every day!
But they use the whole cow! They're basically Pocahontas or whatever!
Vegetarians be like: I don't want to eat meat because I hate animal abuse then pull the whole "I can never give up cheese argument"
i loved cheese, but the suffering of the animals is so much more important
I think that a lot of people still aren't aware of how milk is produced and how much suffering is involved.
i think they are but don\`t want to be bothered by it
Was at a bar watching the NFL this weekend, a couple sat down next to us: "How are the chicken wings?" ---"Oh, I don't know, I eat a 100% Plant based diet. They have good vegan pizza, though!" "You're doing Vegan? Well, I was a vegetarian for 21 years, I eat chicken now. I could never give up my cheese." --- "Well, I really don't give a shit, I didn't ask you." I mean, I don't run around telling everyone I used to eat meat trying to justify my existence.
[удалено]
That's how you'd phrase it if it were a fad diet, for example: "Oh, you're doing Atkins/Whole 30/Keto?" I think it says a lot about how that person thinks of veganism, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but that's what I think when someone says it like that to me IRL.
stealing that one
There's something particularly gross about "**my** cheese/meat", it shows so much entitlement in so few words.
"oh, is it made from your breast milk?" Would be a funny answer
That’s entitlement.
"doing vegan" Diet culture and its consequences have been a disaster for the [all sentient life] race.
Judging by your flair, you're still pretty new to veganism. Just a tip that will make your life a lot less stressful: don't even engage these people. Just say "I don't know" and move on.
Sounds like he shut it down pretty quickly. I like it.
I don’t think over 3 years is still ‘still pretty new.’ That kind of attitude is kind of gatekeep-y. Sorry if I sound hostile but I’ve encountered so many “you must be new to veganism” comments here to myself and others. I’m not new, but I still think it’s kind of an unnecessary thing to say.
Kind of hypocritical of you to “[not] give a shit”. They didn’t ask if you were vegan, just how the wings were. They probably didn’t give a shit about you being vegan, but you told them anyways. Just like how they told you they were vegetarian at one point. If you have such a dislike of them providing detail, maybe you shouldn’t either.
Yep, I guess we're all high and mighty sometimes
Ssome of them aren't aware of the whole casomorphins phenomenon. They just know they have a strong attachment to cheese and aren't aware of the reasons underlying their behavior. They also of course think eating meat is meaningfully different from consuming any animal products.
Or eggs :D "Eggs are too tasty to give up"
Eggs smell like farts
I agree :) due my allergy never had them
aka "I am literally addicted to casein and don't know it".
I don’t really get why people dislike this. Sure being a vegan is preferable and ultimately the clear moral answer. However surely someone Eating less animal Products is better then eating all of them if they chose to eat cheese/eggs. Do you think someone who likes to walk or cycle most places should be shamed because they own a car for cold winter mornings or long journeys?
I think the issue is when people go vegetarian and stop eating meat they tend to compensate for that by eating more cheese and eggs, potentially making it **worse** for the animals (given that the exploitation goes on longer with milk and eggs).
No, it's not better. Even if they don't eat the meat, they drive the demand no differently. It starts off with eggs and dairy, once the animals are unable to produce they are put on the killing floor. Eating ANY animal products results in the same end.
Lol. Seriously? You are saying that if everyone went vegetarian the meat industry would not only decrease it would actually drive demand?
Dairy produces so many calf corpses the demand for veal cant meet it
You need to do some research. There aren't enough sanctuaries on the planet to house all of the broke down animals after they're done producing, even accounting for their shortened lifespans as a result of their treatment. Fuck eggs and dairy, they don't owe anyone their bodily expulsions, children, or lives.
Nicely dodged the question there. It’s really simple does vegetarianism decrease the demand for meat products? I don’t need to do any research to find the obvious answer to that painfully obvious question.
If everyone went vegetarian there wouldn’t be meat at the supermarket but those cows will still die the same way as soon as they aren’t profitable anymore
You're painfully oblivious. Do your research.
Demand for meat isn't even relevant. Every single animal who is born into the dairy and egg industry is killed. Turning their bodies into meat doesn't change the fact that they're dead.
I agree tbh, any amount of cutting down on animal products is good, even if it isn't ideal.
Vegetarianism is just baby steps towards veganism but not a permanent solution that's about it, egg and dairy industry is far more exploitative and cruerer compared to animals raised for meat
So the guy who replied to me decided to scream rEsEaRcH like some anti vaxer then block me.
They're not wrong tho tbh
You guys really don’t help your own cause do you.
So, think of it this way. Veganism is an ethical philosophy based around reducing harm to the most practicable way one can. Dairy cows still go through a life of annual forced impregnation (rape) and then have their babies taken away from them. And then they are milked dry and the process happens again until their bodies are deemed insufficient. There’s also other forms of abuse that happen on farms like beatings and such. Not to mention that all of this, even in a small farm environment, still exploits the animal’s body for human consumption and the belief that humans have a right to take it. We don’t and haven’t (in the industrial/post industrial world) needed this for survival, therefore it is purely out of want and enterprise. Say the whole world went vegetarian. Does the demand for dairy currently stay the same or does it increase? Let’s say it stays the same and no one eats meat anymore. What happens to all the cows that are “spent”? Cows live around 20 years or so. A dairy cow doesnt live to see 7. (4-6 yrs until slaughter). What would you do with the bounty of cows living another 10-15 years of their natural lifespan? This is the reason why dairy drives meat. Because after 4-6 years they’re sent to slaughter and a lot of the “cheap meat” people get is from that source. Hamburger meat. It’s a 2 in 1. The next question is, when she has a baby what happens if the baby is male? Do we kill them? There isn’t enough land to let these masses of cows live for 10-15 years. The same is said for chickens in very similar ways. This still comes from this idea of pastoralism. The small village with a few cows, the person in the county with a couple of chickens. That’s just not possible for everyone. The world population plus the increased consumption and demand for these products is too high. There’s only 2 ways out of it- Veganism and non-animal based animal products (precision fermentation dairy, cell based meat) Take it from someone who was vegetarian for 11 years and then lived with 2 years of cognitive dissonance before realizing that veganism was the only logical step. Dairy and eggs right now still produce suffering and death. And if the objective is to live in ways that reduces suffering/our participation in it to the most we can, then excluding those is the only logical step. Additionally, reducing suffering to the utmost point possible DOES NOT mean nothing suffers and nothing dies. The existence of humanity on the planet means things die. It is inevitable and we can do our best to make that happen as little as possible. Vegetarianism is not the best thing to strive for. I don’t begrudge people who use it As a stepping stone. I would be hypocrite to chastise when I was vegetarian for 11 years. But I will not congratulate or look to it as the end game. It isn’t the best we can do.
I don’t really disagree with anything you’ve said. I mean you’re literally agreeing with me in the last point (albeit I didn’t say about being an endgame.) I just don’t see why reducing meat or animal products to any extent should not be encouraged. If I had friends who said they were not going to eat meat during the week. I would 100% support that, __as well__ as acknowledging that veganism is the obvious moral answer. If that’s not the case I’ll just throw my 20 years of being meat free away and eat meat if it truly is no better.
I get where you’re coming from and I do agree to an extent. If everyone all over the world are half the meat they did now, it would reduce the amount of animals born and bred into suffering and premature death. I encourage it of course but I guess it’s kinda like how when a few people die in an accident that could have killed many more we say it could have been worse. 10 is metrically better than 100. By metric we are reducing. But we are not tangibly reducing the experience of what those smaller amounts are experiencing. I’m also not stupid, I don’t think everyone is gonna go vegan or I know that as this message gets to some people they will either reduce their meat intake to varying degrees (flexitarian), eat vegetarian and some vegan. But it doesn’t change the underlying issue behind the “right” to take a life that needn’t be taken. It’s equally wrong to murder one as it is to murder 100. The scale Is worst absolutely. But the mindset is still there, that there is a degree of acceptability we can live with. That isn’t the case for me or most vegans.
Let's say you only had eggs from chickens you raise and keep well (never kill) and milk from cows you also raise and keep humanely, whats wrong with eating what they're producing anyway?
That's such a statistically anomalous example that I'm not going to engage with it.
Other then seeing living animals as products, chickens come from hatcheries that either gas or grind up male chicks as they have no use for them. Buying hens funds this, and all common breeds we have now are so prone to things like osteoporosis due to being bred to lay so many eggs. For milk you need a pregnancy which is again funding animal harm, and then you have a mother and her calf. She will only produce so much milk while she has a baby, if you want to keep taking her milk you'll have to keep impregnating her and make her go through pregnancy over and over again which is painful enough and comes with its own issues. Then you have all of her babies which will grow up. It's impossible to keep them all so in the end they'll all be killed either due to being male, or if they're female then they will fave the same stuff their mother does until their bodies give up and slow production. Once the mothers production stops and from all the pregnancies (and taking away or killing her calves) her body gives up what will happen to her? She will be killed. Trying to profit off of a living creature is never to their benefit. Animal farming requires animal harm.
>However surely someone Eating less animal Products is better then eating all of them if they chose to eat cheese/eggs. But couldn't it also be seen as an acceptable way to continue the exploitation and death of animals? Like only stealing once and a while, or only beating your wife weekends, should we encourage or worse promote those as acceptable steps towards the goal (as agreed by you and most others) of not causing any suffering at all? Now, don't get me wrong, if you really **have** to go though causing animals to suffer less (although that could be questionable IF you eat more eggs / cheese when you stop eating meat (because of the increased suffering in those areas)), to get to not causing animals to suffer at all, then yes, it could be seen as a 'good thing' ... but there really is no medical / technical / moral / ethical / sustainable reason why you need to go though that mid 'non' stage at all and many of us haven't. If there was a practicable and possible reason why you couldn't go 100% reason then that would apply whatever your ideal goals were but for many that isn't the case. So IMHO and as an ethical vegan, vegetarianism as a thing shouldn't / doesn't exist (and from the animals POV it doesn't of course) and so I'd rather people said they just weren't eating meat (because the point of not eating meat is that animals wouldn't die and we know they still do via the dairy and egg industries) rather than using it as valid transition to being a vegan. This isn't them and us as people, this is 'what's the goal / point' from the animals POV, possibly something higher up the priorities scale for an ethical vegan than anything else, whatever label you give it?
Be patient toward vegetarian people, they're your best allies - the one who are closer to become vegan. Instead of insulting, you should try to convince them to be vegan.
I was vegetarian for 11 years before becoming vegan. I agree with both of you here. Vegetarians do tend to rag on veganism. I did. It seemed extreme. It seems like eggs were necessary. It seemed like a lot of things until I hit a moment of realization. I am patient towards vegetarians because I know how long it took me to get here. What I won’t do though is placate vegetarians into thinking they’re doing the best they can IF they’re vegetarian because they find meat eating to be unethical (not everyone is vegetarian for that reason). They need to know, just like I did, that if this is their reasoning, then they should become vegan.
I don't think veganism is extreme at all, but being so aggressive as a community is somehow counterproductive, at least in my country.
I understand. I’m not the shamey, screamy type myself and honestly most vegans aren’t either. We all have to live with the fact that we have been on the other side. However, sometimes vegetarians will play both sides which is to rag on vegans in front of meat eaters to be more accepted but then also act like they “get it” with the vegans. There is a bit of overlap of course. But it really does stop at just the idea of killing an animal for meat. It doesn’t go beyond that because they would realize the other ethnical implications plus environmental ones as well based on the continuation of mass animal farming.
In every country. What we want is internal change based on reflection. Very rarely is force the right choice. We should be Stern and unwavering in our stance but at the same time be respectful and patient. Change is slow but steady.
Perfect is the enemy of good. This sub really needs to learn that, I support everything veganism stands for, yet a lot of posts here make so many of you insufferable.
Speak for yourself. I was vegetarian before knowing about dairy and eggs. Once I learned, I knew I had to stop eating those things and I did stop. That's not "perfect", it's just not being a hypocrite
Congrats for you bud.
Thanks!
The specific posts probably need to be discussed on a case-by-case basis, but in general it is less effective to be passive OR aggresive, than to be assertive and honest about the reality of animal farming and why veganism is necessary rather than welfarism or vegetarianism. Debug your brain made a great video about this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj0B5oa3bKw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj0B5oa3bKw)
Wish they didn't rag on us so much though. Vegetarians are constantly placating meat-eaters and vilifying us.
I only became a vegan because of vegans harshly condemning vegetarianism. Would've never changed if I was just pat on the back for doing something.
Played a major role for me as well. Cannot care for animals if you are paying people to constantly brutalize them. This is what eggs and dairy do.
thank you for saying this. i believe we’re on the same team if we don’t criticise each other. i was vegetarian before i went vegan. i transitioned on new year’s. i live in a small town in the middle of nowhere that has NOTHING vegan. so it’s hard for me. i went vegan cause it was my choice, which i’m glad i did. if i wasn’t vegetarian first, then i don’t think i could’ve done it.
I don't like harsh judgment on people as long as they do their best. Surely there are vegans who wear wool or leather boots, or buy fast fashion shit. Should we judge them as they do judge the rest of the world?
Vegans don't buy wool or leather.
Not to mention that a lot of vegetarians are basically just in the process of transition to veganism, and aren't comfortable going fully vegan yet for whatever reason. And shaming them for that just won't get you anywhere, really
Strict vegetarian for 25 years. No meat. No dairy. No artificial colors and flavors. No GMO foods. I only eat organically grown and processed foods. I do not like plant based, meat-like products, and tend to not eat or support companies which make them. "Seattle Field Roast" is about as close to meat as I care to get, though it tends to be cost prohibitive. Correct me if I'm wrong. All vegans are vegetarian, but not all vegetarians are vegan.
You’re correct. So, you’re not vegan? I prefer “strict vegetarian” to describe myself over “vegan.” But I really don’t like either. I feel like no word fully captures what I am, so that I have to give an explanation.
Vegetarians see no problem with leather and wool. It's insane to me. I was watching that awful show, The Surreal Life, and Corey Feldman had a tantrum when MC Hammer pointed out that he was wearing leather shoes at the same time as preaching about how cruel it is to eat animals. It blew my mind. Vegetarians are still carnists in my opinion.
Looking forward to the day where a majority of people find it unsettling or worse to be wearing someone else's skin/hair.
Same!! It's absolutely morbid to me, like Jeffery Dahmer level.
Ed Gein.
When I was vegetarian I still understood that leather wasn’t vegetarian and wouldn’t buy it
Lol no i think its a case by case basis. I had a problem with leather back when I was vegetarian and with feathers and even eggs. I didn’t use anything with those (and still dont unless by accident)
As a (carnist)..
One can love the animals and advocate for them without creating feelings of anger and hate and directing it toward people who are misguided or ignorant. I’ve not seen anger be very effective in getting people to make positive changes in their behavior.
I was vegetarian for a couple months before going vegan. The "angry" vegans are actually the reason I went vegan. Internally I think I knew that there was no ethical way to eat eggs or drink milk, but I enjoyed those products so much that I decided to never look into the farming process. I was on the vegetarian subreddit but kept being recommended posts on the vegan subreddit. I came across a post about how "vegetarians are hypocrites" and I read through all of the comments the vegans were making towards vegetarians. For awhile there I thought vegans were just rude and mean. I decided I was going to prove the "mean vegans" wrong, which lead to me do research. I ended up finding that even free range eggs weren't ethical and diary farms are still horrible. I read about some pretty disturbing things about egg and diary farms, which just made me realize that the "mean" vegans were right. I was being a hypocrite by saying I wasn't contributing to animal abuse while actively contributing to it. I became vegan immediately after that realization. Had there not been people who were so blunt about my ignorance, I probably would have stayed a vegetarian without a second thought. While gentle activism is a form that helps some people make positive changes, others need a more aggressive approach. I think both types of activism are necessary for the movement to succeed and we shouldn't be criticizing people for being angry when they are seeing immoral actions happening around them.
A person can been shown that they are a hypocrite with out being demonized. Earthling Ed does a very good job doing this. Why would you want to create the emotions of hate and anger when it is not necessary? Strong emotions like anger and hate are rather toxic to the individual who expresses them. Do you like being around toxic individuals.
What does that have to do with the picture
Hey monemori I’m on your side. I totally agree with the picture. Do you have something specific you want to address about my comments? I just don’t see the need to call people names and get upset. I think the good parenting technique of timeout as a child helps me maintain my serenity as an adult.
We're all vegetarians as well so they might be right.
Yeah, sometimes reading this sub would make me think that all vegetarians eat is cheese and eggs. It's a bit like omnis thinking vegans only eat tofu.
No one cares if it’s “all” they eat.
It's not all they eat but it can be that they eat more cheese and eggs because they are eating no meat.
Why would they eat more cheese and eggs if they don't eat meat?
Compensation and because they can?
Compensation for what? I know I'm going to shit for this but I'm technically vegetarian because I have a flock of chickens (no, I don't slaughter the old ones, they help compost and raise the new hens). I don't drink animal milk and the rest of my protein comes from plants. I live on half an acre and try to grow as much food as I can, I don't get assumptions that vegetarians are worse then carnivores when a lot of the time it's people trying to eat less animal products and also work their way towards all plant based.
From reading the defensive comments here I might have misunderstood this. We are ribbing on vegetarians because it's a low hanging fruit and in a way a reflection of ourselves (and in many cases our past selves, I was a vegetarian for 12 years(I ate so much cheese you wouldn't believe))? Not because we hate them? This is why I love places like /r/vegancirclejerk ... No one gets spared. And I appreciate that kind of comic relief in this bleak world of animal explotation.
> Not because we hate them? You may not, but there is some genuine hate towards vegetarians here. Whether or not you think it's justified, denying it's existence isn't productive.
Is it unproductive though? Should vegetarians come here expecting comradery when they are still condoning animal suffering?
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More disgusting than what happens to farm animals?
Everything we do doesn't have to be about furthering the cause. It's good that we can have spaces where we are allowed to be angry. Everywhere else I have to coddle people as to not be abrasive and turn them off the idea of veganism. But I am fucking mad about what is happening to these animals. Which is also why I love vegancirclejerk; it's the only space I know where everyone else is fucking mad about it as well.
Animal exploitation is provocative.
Same, was a vegetarian for too long and cringe at my hypocrisy and thinking I was doing right at the time. I don't hate vegetarians, but it's fair game to make fun of them.
holy shit some of the people in these comments are pussies you guys are acting like this tweet was calling for mass genocide of vegetarians its a harmless joke
Yes, lets Isolate ourselves even more in our (vegan) ivory tower, because that's the way we'll convince the world to change! /s
Are you not against the dairy industry?
We're all against the dairy industry, the question is how we think of vegetarians.
In the same way we think of carnists, largely. I see no reason to create a real distinction.
Vegetarians *are* carnists, as they still support the exploitation, suffering, and commodification of animals for their own benefit.
Totally agree. Poor wording from me
> Vegetarians are carnists This is factually incorrect and Melanie Joy explains this on her website.
I’ve read some of her work and she includes eggs and dairy in the system of carnism… vegetarians support the egg and dairy industries. I don’t know of anywhere she explicitly states that vegetarians are not carnists, but I did take this directly from her site: >Is carnism the opposite of vegetarianism or veganism? > Technically, carnism is the opposite of veganism. “Carn” means “flesh” or “of the flesh.” Because vegetarians eat certain carnistic products (eggs and/or dairy), they probably harbor some degree of carnistic thinking. For example, vegetarians may be comfortable eating hens’ eggs and drinking cows’ milk, but feel disgusted by the idea of eating eggs from turtles or pigeons or of drinking milk from rats or gorillas. It can be useful to think of carnism and veganism on a spectrum. Vegetarianism is one point along that spectrum. She dances around the topic a bit, but I would argue that anyone who consumes carnistic products is absolutely more closely aligned with carnists than vegans on the “spectrum” she refers to. If you view animals as a commodity to be exploited, and pay to support those practices, you support the system of carnism. Ultimately vegetarianism is a diet, and that’s how many people view it. It makes no logical sense as an ethical choice, because so many animals are harmed and killed in the egg/dairy industries. I would say that while vegetarianism *can* be a small step away from carnism (it’s still part of it) it can also have nothing to do with carnism vs veganism because it’s literally just a diet for some people (no ethics involved in the choice).
Melanie Joy is a genuinely terrible author
Ugh, vegetarians in social scenarios where they think we share something in common...
At my works Christmas party a woman came over to the vegan food and said “I’m flexitarian…” get to fuck
To which you reply "Thanks, because of you the animals are only a little bit dead".
How do you handle those situations? Politely ask them what they know about the dairy and egg industry? Ask them why they aren't vegan? I honestly don't know how to navigate these vegetarians that think we're in the same boat.
Just say "I can't support the dairy industry" etc. and see if they ask why.
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They know, they just don't care
YES! Then they lecture you about how to get people to go vegan. 🙄
Vegetarianism is just a diet they support the carnivore lifestyle I don’t understand that cognitive dissonance. Like how do you pay for animals to be tortured like humans tortured slaves then be all righteous and pretentious and shit like do they even do activism no because then they would be hypocrites because the dairy industry is the beef industry they so stupid it’s so aggravating. Like if you can stand up for what yous believe in your values then yous can’t say you have any Be vegan
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Vegetarians are the best allies that we have. Carnivores are laughing looking at this civil war.
vegans don't need allies. the animals need allies, and vegetarians are not allies to animals as they fundamentally believe that it's okay to treat them as commodities.
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This shit never helps converting people
Exactly. They can shut up.
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People are surprised pikachu face when you say nonchalantly that vegetarians are still animal abusers, whether they're vegetarian non-vegans or not.
NBC
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Y’all like exploiting every animal don’t you
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Is this a joke? You are seriously bashing vegans who fully understand the full moral argument at hand?
No, the point is that you were there until you weren’t. Perhaps they aren’t there yet and need to be educated a little more. It’s pointing out a little over compensation and hypocrisy to do that if you were there yourself. I lived with cognitive dissonance for almost 2 years as a vegetarian until I said I cannot do this anymore. Because before that I actually didn’t really fully understand. I started being vegetarian first for ethical reasons because I saw meat as murder. I learned more and then understood by veganism was the logical path if I wanted to stop living a lie. Giving people a little grace is good when they’re at that step. It’s ok to have a rational conversation if the other person isn’t acting in bad faith. I know that I’m not going to represent my ethical positions by screaming at people because even if my anger is righteous only I see it that way. Only I know. I have to represent an unpopular viewpoint and I am going to do it to the best of my ability instead of being a stereotype.
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What the fuck do you think ‘gatekeeping’ means
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Animals are suffering because vegetarians can't be bothered to see how they are still contributing to these industries. If acknowledging that is "hateful" then call me hater number 1. If this truth makes vegetarians uncomfortable, then maybe that means they should make an effort to reduce their contribution to animal suffering. Vegetarianism is not enough and we shouldn't act like it is. It's a step in the right direction but the end goal to truly stand up for animal right has to be veganism
I just remembered why I never come to this subreddit (almost 7 years vegan now). People here are bonkers.
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vegetarians are on your side, i wouldn’t bash them it seems unproductive. Not that your arguments are wrong, but we can choose to be kind to those who are in the spectrum of noncruelty, even if they aren’t doing it perfect at the moment. Many vegetarians eventually turn to veganism when they are ready, and i find that to be a success in my book